Who Was the Real King Arthur?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Who Was the Real King Arthur?"
The Ancients hosted by Tristan Hughes
Release Date: January 2, 2025
Guest: Dr. Miles Russell, Archaeologist and Historian

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I. Introduction to the Episode

In the January 2, 2025 episode of The Ancients, host Tristan Hughes revisits a beloved episode from the podcast's archives, delving into one of ancient history's enduring mysteries: the true identity of King Arthur. Joining him is the esteemed Dr. Miles Russell from Bournemouth University, a recurring guest known for his expertise on Roman Britain, Iron Age Britons, and the enigmatic figure of King Arthur.

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II. The Legendary King Arthur: From Myth to History

Dr. Miles Russell opens the discussion by highlighting King Arthur's global recognition and the challenge of separating historical fact from mythological embellishment. He remarks, “Arthur is such an incredible character. He's a world character really. You know, he's famous everywhere...” (02:29) This universal fame makes understanding the real King Arthur a complex endeavor, as each generation reinvents him to fit contemporary narratives and cultural contexts.

III. Geoffrey of Monmouth’s Influence

The conversation pivots to Geoffrey of Monmouth’s seminal work, Historia Regum Britanniae (History of the Kings of Britain), written around 1136 AD. Dr. Russell explains, “Geoffrey of Monmouth is the first person to give us an entire life history of King Arthur...” (04:33) This text serves as the foundation for most Arthurian legends, despite its historical inaccuracies and blend of fact and fiction. Geoffrey’s work was intended to elevate Britons’ heritage, countering Anglo-Saxon-centric histories like those of Bede.

IV. The Five Historical Figures Shaping Arthur

Dr. Russell identifies five key ancient figures whose lives and stories were amalgamated by Geoffrey of Monmouth to create the composite character of King Arthur. Each figure contributes a specific percentage to the Arthurian narrative:

A. Ambrosius Aurelianus (16%)

Ambrosius Aurelianus appears in the writings of Gildas, a 6th-century cleric. Described as a noble Roman-descended Briton who successfully defended Britain against Saxon incursions, Ambrosius’s victories, particularly at the Battle of Mount Badon, laid the groundwork for Arthur’s military prowess. Dr. Russell states, “Ambrosius is treated as the immediate sort of predecessor of Arthur...” (17:49) Geoffrey integrates Ambrosius’s leadership and battlefield successes into Arthur’s character, attributing significant portions of Arthur’s story to him.

B. Magnus Maximus (39%)

Magnus Maximus, a 4th-century Roman general of Spanish origin, is the most significant contributor to the Arthurian legend, accounting for 39% of Arthur’s story. Dr. Russell outlines Maximus’s rebellion against Emperor Gratian and his subsequent military campaigns, which included conflicts in Britain and Gaul. Maximus's portrayal as a powerful warlord who defied Rome mirrors Arthur’s own defiance against invading forces. Russell notes, “Magnius Maximus is the most significant person to contribute to the Arthur tale...” (23:57) His leadership qualities and military achievements were essential traits adopted by Geoffrey to construct Arthur’s legendary heroism.

C. Constantine the Great (8%)

Constantine the Great, although primarily known for his role in the Roman Empire and the adoption of Christianity, also influences Arthur’s legend. Dr. Russell explains, “Constantine is the first emperor who literally just before he dies, he's on his deathbed, he converts to Christianity...” (29:34) Geoffrey incorporates elements of Constantine’s rise to power and his strategic military actions, albeit in a distorted form, to enhance Arthur’s authoritative and unifying presence in Britain.

D. Cassivellaunus (12%)

Cassivellaunus, an Iron Age British leader mentioned by Julius Caesar, adds another layer to Arthur’s story. Dr. Russell points out the discrepancies in Geoffrey’s accounts compared to historical records: “Geoffrey doesn't seem to have Caesar's account to hand...” (33:42) In Geoffrey’s narrative, Cassivellaunus’s military engagements against Caesar are reinterpreted, sometimes portraying him as Arthur’s adversary and other times as a precursor, leading to a blended and often contradictory representation in the Arthurian legend.

E. Arviragus (Caratarchus) (24%)

Arviragus, likely a garbled version of the historical Caratarchus, further shapes Arthur’s character. Dr. Russell describes Caratarchus as a British leader who resisted Roman rule and later allied with Rome, paralleling Arthur’s complex relationship with invading forces. “[...] the relationship between Caratarchus and Cartimanua gets evolved into sort of Arthur and Guinevere...” (39:54) This figure introduces elements of betrayal and alliance, crucial to Arthur’s narrative development.

F. Miscellaneous Elements (1%)

A minor 1% contribution includes unique additions by Geoffrey, such as Arthur’s conquests in Norway and Iceland. Dr. Russell suggests, “These are aspects that don't actually feature in any other character story in Geoffrey and Monmouth's account...” (47:07) These additions serve to grandify Arthur’s reign but are largely independent of the historical figures discussed.

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V. The Composite Nature of King Arthur

Dr. Russell emphasizes that King Arthur, as depicted by Geoffrey of Monmouth, is not a singular historical figure but a composite amalgamation of multiple leaders and myths. He states, “From our perspective, he is the composite of everyone who's gone before him. Well, he's the five key characters who come before him.” (47:07) This blending creates a legendary hero embodying the strengths and stories of various real-life predecessors, making Arthur a symbol of British resilience and martial prowess.

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VI. Arthurian Elements and Later Influences

The episode also explores how later Arthurian tales, such as the romances involving Lancelot, Guinevere, and the Holy Grail, diverge significantly from Geoffrey’s original portrayal. Dr. Russell compares Arthur’s brutal warlord depiction with the more humanized and romanticized versions that emerged in medieval literature. “[...] he's the ultimate warrior in the story...” (11:22) This evolution reflects changing societal values and literary trends, moving Arthur from a symbol of martial excellence to a multifaceted legendary king.

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VII. Exclusions and Modern Interpretations

Interestingly, some prominent historical figures like Boudicca are notably absent from Geoffrey’s Arthurian accounts. Dr. Russell explains, “Boudicca doesn’t really feature much in Geoffrey and Monmouth's account...” (49:38) Instead, Geoffrey may have incorporated aspects of her story into male characters, such as Sodoric, illustrating the selective nature of myth-making. Additionally, modern interpretations and nationalistic narratives have revived figures like Boudicca to embody resistance and strength, though they remain separate from the core Arthurian mythos.

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VIII. Conclusion

In conclusion, the episode elucidates how King Arthur, as portrayed by Geoffrey of Monmouth, is a legendary amalgam drawn from various historical and mythological figures of ancient Britain. Dr. Miles Russell provides a nuanced understanding of Arthur’s composite nature, rooted in the lives of leaders like Ambrosius Aurelianus, Magnus Maximus, Constantine the Great, Cassivellaunus, and Arviragus. This synthesis of historical narratives and oral traditions underscores the enduring allure and complexity of King Arthur as a symbol of British heritage.

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Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Miles Russell on Arthur's global fame: “Arthur is such an incredible character. He's a world character really. You know, he's famous everywhere...” (02:29)

• Dr. Russell on Geoffrey of Monmouth’s portrayal: “He is not a very nice character from our point of view, but from the point of view, I guess, of a post Roman society, he's exactly the kind of individual you want on your side.” (11:27)

• Dr. Russell on Arthur being a composite figure: “From our perspective, he is the composite of everyone who's gone before him. Well, he's the five key characters who come before him.” (47:07)

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This episode offers a compelling exploration of how historical figures and oral traditions intertwine to form the legendary King Arthur, shedding light on the complexities of myth-making and historical interpretation in ancient Britain.

Transcript

[Tristan Hughes]

Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes and if you would like the Ancients ad free, get early access and bonus episodes. Sign up to History Hit with the History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary All About Petra and the Nabateans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe did you know that two out of three listeners say podcasts are the best way to learn about the things they care about most? That makes podcasts the perfect place to introduce your brand where ads are more relevant and trusted than any other media channel. Want to learn more? Download the full podcast polls 2024. Report now at podcastpulse2024.acast.com and see how you can make your brand part of the conversation. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host and Happy New Year 2025 is here and for the Ancients where we have some huge treats for you over the next few weeks as we kick off January in style. Watch this now. It is still the holiday season and the Ancients team are just wrapping up their Christmas break. So today we're bringing back to the fore another of my favorite episodes from the back catalogue. And I had a lot of fun choosing this particular episode because it's all about King Arthur and the real life ancient figures who inspired this legendary king of the Britons. Because there was more than one, as the brilliant Dr. Miles Russell from Bournemouth University explained. Explained to me in this interview that I did with him back in early 2021 almost four years ago. Miles has been a regular on the Ancients and on the history hit YouTube channel. Since then we've filmed with him about the great Iron Age British Hillfort Maiden Castle and about the mysterious Roman Ninth Legion Legio 9 Hispana. He is a lovely man and a brilliant speaker, talking Romans, Iron Age Britons and King Arthur. You name it, he knows it. What's not to love? Enjoy the question of who was the real King Arthur. It's kind of like what happened to the Ninth Legion. It's one of those great mystery questions of history.

[Dr. Miles Russell]

It is. I mean, Arthur is such an incredible character. He's a world character really. You know, he's famous everywhere and I think his story is one that just keeps getting reinvented for every generation. You know, he's one of those characters from the past where it's now very difficult to disentangle the historic truth from the sort of mythology and the fantasy that's built on it, but because the story's been enlarged and enlarged and enlarged over time, you know, every generation makes the Arthur that they want. So we'll see. In the last few decades, there's been TV series, there's been films, there's been computer games. It's just building on that mythology. So probably, of all characters in the past, King Arthur is probably one of the most famous. Really. He's world renowned.

[Tristan Hughes]

Absolutely world renowned. And you are an archaeologist of ancient history. And although we sometimes think of Arthur as this medieval figure, he has these incredible links, shall we say, when you look at the research, to ancient Britain.

[Dr. Miles Russell]

Absolutely, yes, yes. I mean, it's. I guess, you know, King Arthur is one of those characters who's always fascinated historians and archaeologists alike, trying to get back to the actual physical truth of him. You know, did he. The argument's always going, there are those who believe he was a real character operating at the end of Roman Britain and those who believe he's complete fantasy and within that they're trying to find some middle ground of trying to actually place him. Because it's such an emotive time. You know, when you're talking about the end of Roman Britain, we're talking about the beginning of the kingdoms of what becomes England, what becomes the Principality of Wales, the Kingdom of Scotland. It's all these formative stories or these foundation myths, all begin at that. All coalesce at that one time. So Arthur's there at the epicentre of all that. So trying to, you know, he's got great resonance today, trying to find out who he was, where he existed and what he actually did.

[Tristan Hughes]

Super interesting questions. Arthur Wright at the epicenter. So, Miles, to really start off this chat, the background. We are talking about the book at the heart of your research on this topic. It's not an ancient book, but this literary source, it's key to our discussion today. What is this book?

[Dr. Miles Russell]

It's a history of the kings of Britain by Geoffrey of Monmouth. The Historia Regem Britanniae, it's his Latin title and it's written in around 1136 AD, so it's written a very long time after the events that it describes. It divides opinion, I think it's fair to say, in that in the past, it was viewed as one of the most important texts relating to the history of the Britons, giving them their lost voice. But in the last 200 years, people have tended to be a bit more critical of it and say, well, actually, it appears to just be either complete fantasy, it's made up or it's some kind of misguided patriotic drivel, which really made sense in the 12th century, but doesn't today. The difficulty really is we don't know anything about the man who wrote it, Geoffrey of Monmouth. I mean, we know that he existed, which is good. We know that he was living in Oxford in the 1130s. We know that by his name, Geoffrey of Monmouth, he must have sort of grown up or spent his formative years on the Welsh English border. But beyond that, we know very little about him or indeed why he chose to write this book. He says in his foreword that Walter, the Archdeacon of Oxford, his ultimate boss, gave him the task of translating a very ancient book in we call the Celtic tongue, translating it into Latin. But people have taken that to think, well, this is some kind of smokescreen, some kind of COVID for something he's actually inventing, because there is no original Celtic text that people have found. But all the way through his book, we can see he's making reference to oral history. And other writers at the same time are like Henry of Huntingdon and William of Malmsby. They're talking about the stories of the Britons, which are known by heart. So there is this sort of tradition of oral storytelling, of passing myths down from generation to generation, but not actually writing anything down. And it is actually the beginning of the 12th century that we start seeing things like the Mabinogion in Wales, a whole series of different texts. We see the Welsh triads, we see Geoffrey of Monmouth. They're starting to write down stories which seem to have been passed around. Now, the difficulty with an oral history is obviously tracing its origins. And of course, it's the possibility every generation is slightly modifying it or changing it, and therefore the story becomes distorted, names become garbled, and it becomes increasingly difficult to look back and think, well, what is the actual kernel of truth there? What is the actual origins of this? But Geoffrey is writing this down and he presents a history that he describes of the Britons. He's putting this as an attempt to counter the overtly English stories, like Bede, who writes the ecclesiastical history of the English people. He's got William of Malmsbury, Henry of Huntingdon, and their stories are very Anglo Saxon centric. You know, they're based on the first English migrants setting up kingdoms. He's presenting a story that counters that and said, actually before they arrived, there is this great heritage going back all the kings and queens and monarchs. And he claims they are descended ultimately from Trojans who were escaping the Trojan wars, who are Sort of refugees who landed in Britain and established this sort of series of kingdoms. And effectively it's a polemic really, sort of saying that all these people existed before the Saxons arrived and going through their history and identifying key heroes. But the difficulty from our perspective and of a historical point of view is because these names aren't mentioned anywhere else. Have they got any kind of historical truth to them? Is he making them up? Is he using some kind of oral tradition that hasn't been written down anywhere else? What is the basis of this? But it's important for us because Geoffrey of Monmouth is the first person to give us an entire life history of King Arthur, from his conception to his mortal wounding. So all our understanding of Arthur the man, all the mythology that's built around him begins with Geoffrey of Monmouth. There's scattered references to an Arthur character before that, but Geoffrey gives us everything. It's a full download of his entire life history.

[Tristan Hughes]

Myles, that is super interesting. And just before we go on to Arthur, that mentioning of this oral tradition, as it were, should we say pre Saxon? Is it looking at the ancient Celtic history, as it were, in this oral tradition? Because you see so many parallels. I was immediately thinking of perhaps Homer, the Odyssey, the Iliad, that oral tradition. But you could also then look at the Polynesians and their oral tradition before the Europeans and the interactions there. And it seems like it's quite similar here how he is now writing down, hundreds and hundreds of years later, Geoffrey of Monmouth, this tradition that may well have been passed down through many of the Celtic speaking peoples and said for generations.

[Dr. Miles Russell]

Absolutely. So he's remembering sort of heroes from the past. Another good sort of example is the stories that are first being written down or recorded in 19th century Afghanistan about Iskander, you know, Alexander the Great. Here you've got a Macedonian general from the third century B.C. who's being remembered thousands of years later. And the stories have multiplied, but at its core there is a historical verifiable figure. So we can see that oral tradition has a very long history. You know, that tales do survive, but because they're not being recorded, it is very difficult to see when they mutate and when they change. And that's the tricky thing with Geoffrey Monmouth is we can identify some of these characters, not all of them, but. But we don't know when these particular tales are mutating and evolving.

[Tristan Hughes]

Absolutely. Don't you worry, Miles, we'll be going back to Alexander the Great very soon, I'm sure. But let's focus on Arthur. So Arthur and Geoffrey's book. How significant a figure is he in.

[Dr. Miles Russell]

History of the Kings of Britain? Arthur is coming towards the end. I mean, he occupies about a third of the book. So he's the most significant character, he's given the most amount of space to develop. And in a way, everything is leading up towards Arthur. I mean, there are characters after him in the story, but they're less significant and they're given sort of less time, really. But throughout the story, Geoffrey presents a series of important men and women who are trying to defend their kingdom and trying to establish the laws of the land and all these sort of things. And Arthur occurs at a point when the kingdom's under its greatest threat because Geoffrey identifies the Saxons coming in from, you know, migrating across the North Sea as the biggest threat to the kingdom of the Britons. So Arthur's there at that point, defending everything that's gone before. But it's interesting because the story that he gives of Arthur is repeating lots of key tropes, lots of key aspects of other people's story, and it's presented without comment. It's some kind of divine plan. Everything that's happened before is coalescing under Arthur and is repeated under Arthur. And he is the ultimate warrior in the story. And his demise signifies the high point of the Britain story, but also the point which they sort of descend and the kingdom sort of crashes to a halt.

[Tristan Hughes]

The Arsenic warrior portrayal. So is he very much portrayed in this book, Miles, as a warlord.

[Dr. Miles Russell]

He's a horrible character in the Geoffrey of Monmouth because he's a psychopath. He is very quick to anger, he slaughters people for no apparent reason, he invades countries just because he wants power. But that is in the post Roman, indeed pre Roman period. That is how heroes are remembered. You know, they're not remembered for having a kingdom of peace and prosperity. They're not remembered for the laws that they pass. They are remembered for being strong individuals who don't take any prisoners. So Arthur, his story is just drenched in blood. He is not a very nice character from our point of view, but from the point of view, I guess, of a post Roman society, he's exactly the kind of individual you want on your side. You've got these descriptions of him in a battle, almost going into berserker mode and slaughtering hundreds of individuals just with his sword. He's there, he's doing all the killing. And I think in a way that is important to understand because the Arthur that Geoffrey presents us is completely unlike the medieval Arthur that we get all the later romances built around him from the 14th, 15th, 16th centuries really make him more human. They bring in the romance cycle of Arthur and Lancelot and Guinevere, they bring in the quest for the Holy Grail, they bring in other characters like Bedivere and Percival and Galahad and all these other individuals. So they make Arthur a more human individual, they emphasize his humanity, whereas Geoffrey just presents us with the warlord. And it's interesting to see how little of the original story that Geoffrey gives us actually appears in the later accounts. He almost gets edited out completely and other elements come in and therefore there's no sword in the stone, there's no lady in the lake, there's no Lancelot, Guinevere, romance, there's no Holy Grails. None of those aspects are in Geoffrey's primary account. It's all about conquest and killing and being the strongest man, the last man standing, effectively.

[Tristan Hughes]

Miles, the parallels are so striking. We're going back to Alexander now because of that whole portrayal with the Alexander historians. First of all, like the original sources. You mentioned how Arthur is portrayed as this sometimes psychopathic warlord. Well, I think Alexander is portrayed very similarly at times. This killing of hundreds of thousands of people, particularly in the Indus river valley. But it's only later on when you get the romance added with the Alexander romance stories where you see him going to mythical lands, almost what they thought mythical lands like in Africa or visiting Jerusalem, etc, etc, and those are added later. So it's so interesting. You see these striking parallels between two of the most well known warlords of history who have become two of the most well known warlords in history have these striking parallels in how their story in the literature develops over time to become, shall we say, more popular among audiences.

[Dr. Miles Russell]

It is, it is. I mean, it's still going on today. I mean, you can think when you look back to all the ancient Greek myths, really none of the characters in there are particularly nice. You think of someone like Achilles. I mean, he is a really unpleasant individual. And yet when people are trying to dramatize the Trojan wars today, they downplay the death and killing side and they try to bring in romance and try to make this person likable. Because ultimately we want to see an element of our heroes that we empathize with that we like. Otherwise, what's the point? So you can see a lot of more modern interpretations of Achilles. And yeah, he's quite a nice chap. He's got compassion. It doesn't appear in the original sources. You know, basically he is a murderous sociopath and that is same with Alexander. I mean, there's nothing about his story. He's not going eastwards in a missionary zeal to bring his brand of civilization and to benefit society. He's conquering and killing and destroying another civilization. But later on the romances are added and they're trying to make him ultimately a more likable person. And that is exactly what's happening with Arthur, because he is a deeply unlikable person when you read his accounts in Geoffrey of Monmouth.

[Tristan Hughes]

Now, let's go back to Arthur, then. Thank you for that tangent, though. That was very much appreciated. So, I mean, the stories of King Arthur and Geoffrey of Monmouth, many of these stories that are given to Arthur Miles, they happen to other individuals before him.

[Dr. Miles Russell]

Exactly. I mean, the interesting thing, looking through Geoffrey of Monmouth, if you do read it from COVID to cover, which I've done many times, it's not something I don't actually recommend to people because it's not like reading a novel and it's plagued with names and dates and events. But you see that certain themes do get repeated. And this is one of the reasons I think, that Geoffrey's history, his skill is he's weaving together a series of stories and trying to put them in a chronology that makes sense to him. So we often see stories repeated, like the invasion of Julius Caesar in 54 BC in Britain as a documented event. It appears twice in Geoffrey and Monmouth's account from different perspectives, and it's almost as if he doesn't realise it's the same event and therefore he separates it out and we get three invasions of Caesar rather than the two that we know about. And 54 BC is repeated. And he does this with individuals. We see someone whose story is very similar to somebody else and their name form is slightly different, it's garble and it's evidently it's the same person. But Geoffrey's presented with two rather different accounts and rather than pushing them together, he treats them as two separate individuals. So when we look at Arthur, you can disentangle. There's at least five individuals which come together, really. So Arthur is a composite. In Geoffrey of Monmouth, his story has already happened to other people. And these are sort of people who are in some way significant. They've been remembered as heroes in that old psychopathic elliside. You know, they are prominent warlords of their time, but their stories have undoubtedly been remembered and therefore they are coalescing around Arthur and Geoffrey brings them together to create this sort of composite Celtic superhero.

[Tristan Hughes]

Composite Celtic superhero. Five key Figures from ancient Britain. Miles, let's delve into these five figures. Now, I want you to go wild with the detail of each of these people. Let's start with the first one. This is someone who I actually think is particularly interesting, particularly because he seems to be very much an influence on Clive Owen for the King Arthur of that in the 2000s. Miles, number one, Ambrosius Aurelianus.

[Dr. Miles Russell]

Yes, I mean, Ambrosius Aurelianus is one of those figures who, in post Roman Britain we do have some detail of. It is not much to go on really, but Ambrosius Aurelianus appears in the writings of a man called Gildas, and Gildas is writing at some point in the mid 6th century. Gildas is not the best historian to rely on, because he's not a historian, he's the man of the clergy. And his account on the ruin of Britain, it's a polemic, it's a sermon basically explaining why the Britons have suffered because they're all diseased and sinful and corrupt, and therefore the Saxons are like a scourge from God cleansing them so it's full of blood and fire and anger. And Gildas hasn't got a good word to say about anybody. Everybody's corrupt and horrible, apart from one person who is Ambrosius Aurelianus. And he says that he's a man of good character, he's descended of sort of noble Roman stock, and he is responsible for this great defeat of this rascally crew, the Saxons. He defeats them at a battle or the siege of Mount Badon. And because Gildas is so complimentary about him and he mentions this battle, this battle gets referred to time and time again. It becomes a key battle of King Arthur in the later sort of rewrites. But Gildas doesn't give us any information about who is besieging whom at this great affair. He doesn't tell us where Baden is. But because Gildas is writing somewhere in the west country, or possibly southern Wales, we assume it's within that sort of general area. But it's important to him and it's important to the people he's speaking to. So Ambrosius is this major cat. Now, he appears a lot in other oral histories which were later written down, like the Triads of Wales, like the Mabinogion, briefly Nennius in Historia Brittonum, the history of the Britons, Ambrosius is in there and he features very heavily in Geoffrey Monmouth's work because he's treated as the immediate sort of predecessor of Arthur. But Ambrosius is somebody in Geoffrey Monmouth, who, yes, he fights the Battle of Baden, which Geoffrey places at Bath in the West Country. He is trying to establish his kingdom in the face of Saxon advances. He defeats them a number of times. And Geoffrey has him being having his coronation at Stonehenge. And of course, this becomes. Archaeologists have picked up on this recently going back to Geoffrey, this idea that in Geoffrey's account, Ambrosius asks his chief advisor, Merlin, to build a monument to commemorate all those British aristocrats who've been murdered by the Saxons. And Merlin goes off to Ireland and brings back this great stone circle which they set up on Salisbury Plain. And that's where Ambrosius has his coronation. And of course, from an archaeological perspective, that seems utterly ludicrous, you know, because we know the history of Stonehenge and it's not post Roman in essence, although it's possible. You know, there's debate whether the bluestones have come from West Wales, which might be sort of remembered. But the key thing in Geoffrey's text is he's talking about the monument being restructured. And we know that archaeologically, you know, I've excavated inside Stonehenge entirely legally, by the way. It was part of a bigger project. But a lot of the bluestones that we see in Stonehenge today were reshaped and modified in the post Roman period. So there is some kind of structural modification going on in there at the time that Ambrosius is supposed to have existed. And of course, you've got Amesbury, the town nearby. Ambrosius's burr, his name is resonant in the landscape. So it's possible Geoffrey is remembering or writing down an event involving the reshaping of Stonehenge and the coronation of this king whom Gildas has mentioned before. But he's there, and he's the only post Roman warlord for whom we've got anything vaguely complimentary written about. So in that sense, he's in the right space at the right time for the Arthur character. And when we look at Ambrosius in Geoffrey's text, aspects about his childhood, aspects about his kingship, and of course, the Battle of Baden get absorbed into the Arthur story. So they're repeated without comment later on. So we can see there's about 16% of the king Arthur story as it appears in Geoffrey Monmouth is taken from Ambrosius Life.

[Tristan Hughes]

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[Dr. Miles Russell]

It is, yes, it's the battle narrative and it's the sort of aspects about his kingship and his position and his power. And it is actually interesting that later writers take other aspects of Ambrosius because in Geoffrey of Monmouth, although Merlin is there, he and Arthur never meet. They occupy different timelines, as it were. But later writers have Merlin becoming Arthur's advisor and his wizard. So it's interesting, but it's Ambrosius and Merlin in the original text. But later when Ambrosius is written out, Merlin sort of gets absorbed into the Arthur story.

[Tristan Hughes]

Well, there you go. I never clicked that link between Ambrosius, Aurelianus and Amesbury and Miles. If we then move on, it sounds like Ambrosius. He is a significant core of the character of Arthur in Geoffrey's Monmouth. But moving on to the next figure, he also seems very, very significant. Character number two, Magnus Maximus.

[Dr. Miles Russell]

Yeah, I mean, Magnus Maximus I guess is one of those individuals who doesn't resonate so much today. We don't hear a lot about him, but he was a significant Character in later 4th century Roman Empire because we know that there's not a lot about his life story that has been recorded, but it is known that he is of Spanish ethnicity. He's serving in Britain, possibly as a commander of the northern armies, the Dux Britanniorum. But in 383 AD, his soldiers proclaim him as emperor. So he is illegally created as leader of the Roman world. And lots of people are doing this around the Roman Empire throughout the third and fourth centuries. The empire is tearing itself apart with multiple leaders and claims and civil wars. So in that respect, Magnus Maximus is not that different. But he seems to have the support of the troops in Britain. There seems to be a lot of disaffection with the government in Britain, with Rome feeling that they're not perhaps being looked after, they're a distant province, they're not that important. And Magnus Maximus, as we know from the histories, takes troops out of Britain. He gets support in Northern Gaul, northern France, Belgium, Germany, he's minting coins with his faith on and with images of victory, his army besiege the forces of the legitimate Emperor Gratian, who is killed in the retreat. So the Emperor of the west dies. The emperor's mother and his younger brother then go over to the east and Magnus Maximus is sitting there above the Alps, about to advance down into Italy, when the Eastern emperor arrives with an army, cuts him off and he is executed and killed and the rebellion is put down. But it's a huge political and social upheaval because it's completely destabilized the West. It's involved a loss of life. It's an own goal as far as Rome's concerned, because it's destroying its own army and saw lots of it been fighting. But the fact that his story, you think, well, why is Magnus Maximus remembered? What possible relevance has he got to Britain? But he is remembered. If you look in a lot of the early Welsh genealogies, lots of the leaders of Paris and so on, they trace their ancestry back to Magnus Maximus, who's often cited as the king who killed the king of the Romans. You know, he is remembered. And in the Mabinogion, we get the story of the dream of Maxon, who is Magnus Maximus, who in that version of the story, he's an emperor in Rome who dreams of this distant, faraway, mythical land with a castle and a beautiful princess. And he sends people out to look for her and they eventually come back and say, we found her, she's in effectively North Wales. And he travels over there, meets the woman literally of his dreams, and they fall in love. And he stays there for long enough for a rival to take power in Rome. And then he has to take troops out of Britain to go and reclaim his kingdom. So it's sort of a reverse version of the story, but he's remembered in so many different accounts, you think, well, there's something about him. Okay, yes, he was a prominent warlord. That's something that, you know, tick, you are remembered for. Undoubtedly there were praise poems about him. I suspect he restructured Britain significantly, so he devolved authority perhaps to individual tribes or leaders. And that's why they later treated him as their sort of progenitor, as the founder of their dynasty. But a lot of the story, certainly the Mabinogion, centres around Carnarvon in North Wales. And that's where the later sort of Plantagenet dynasty build Carnarvon Castle. And it's supposed to be the sort of myth fulfilment that they are building a Fortress that resembles the castle that Magnus Maximus had in this dream. So sort of the later Norman monarchs are building on this mythology quite literally and representing themselves as the ultimate sort of fulfilment of the Magnus Maximus story. But when we look at Geoffrey Monmouth, when we look at the fact that he leaves Britain, he invades Gaul, modern day France, he defeats armies, he kills the emperor, and he's just about to go over the Alps to invade Italy when he suddenly turned away. All this is Magnus Maximus story that's been repackaged for Arthur. So 39% of the king Arthur story comes from Magnus Maximus in Geoffrey Monmouth. So he is the most significant person to contribute to the Arthur tale.

[Tristan Hughes]

Miles. It's so interesting how the most significant person for creating this Celtic superhero is this rather infamous Roman general.

[Dr. Miles Russell]

It is, I guess to our perspective it is. But given that he's portrayed as a strong leader, someone who is successful in battle, someone who galvanises the Britons and the Gauls and the Germans against Rome, this becomes a significant factor in this story. And of course, bear in mind, he doesn't come back to Britain. One of the later aspects developed with Arthur is he's gone. He's not killed, but he might come back one day. And I guess that is something about Magnus Maximus is that he's gone abroad. Stories of his death might be treated as a bit of an over exaggeration, but there's that sense that one day he will return and save us all. So you can see how that's in. But yeah, from our perspective, you know, from most people's perspective, I guess Magnus Maximus, whose name translates as the great, the greatest, you know, so he's, he's, he's quite a show off.

[Tristan Hughes]

He's not modest.

[Dr. Miles Russell]

Yeah, he's not modest in that sense, but he doesn't feature much in our history. He's just another name in that list of rebels. But for the sort of beginnings of the great Welsh dynasties and the Princes of Wales, he's a key character from their past and therefore he gets built into the story of Arthur.

[Tristan Hughes]

Fair enough. Well, from Magnus Maximus, let's move on to another person who is definitely not modest in the slightest. Figure number three, Constantine the Great.

[Dr. Miles Russell]

Yeah, I mean, again, Constantine is another character who ultimately hasn't really got anything to do with Britain. You know, he's from the eastern Mediterranean, from the Balkans, but he is serving in Britain with his father in 306 AD, and his father is Constantius. His father is the emperor. And at that stage there is a system called the tetrarchy, which is bare by whoever's emperor chooses their successor. And it's not somebody of their bloodline, they choose the most capable leader to succeed them. And it's a way of trying to get rid of all these fighting dynasties. Now, in 306, Constantius dies in Britain at York. He's on campaign in Britain and Constantine, his son, effectively says, well, I'm the son of the emperor, I'm going to be emperor. And his troops proclaim him as such at York. So it's this major uprising, another sort of time when a general has illegally seized power. And Constantine does. What Magnus Maximus does later is he takes troops out of Britain, he goes into Gaul and then he starts his campaign downwards into Italy, down towards Rome. And so in effect, there are elements of his story which are repeated in the after story of him invading. But Constantine is the first emperor who literally just before he dies, he's on his deathbed, he converts to Christianity and he allows Christianity to flourish. And of course, for writers like Geoffrey of Monmouth, who are in that Christian tradition, he is the most important Roman of all. And we can see aspects of his story. I mean, it's very, very similar to what happens to Magnus Maximus. And to be fair, Constantine, although he's treated as a great Roman, when you actually look at his story, he's a deeply unpleasant individual and he murders all these rivals and he suffocates people in baths and he poisons. He is horrific. But he fits that profile of a strong leader. And Constantine is successful. You know, unlike Magnus Maximus, who dies at the last hurdle, Constantine does become emperor of Rome. And the fact that his rebellion starts in Britain and York features a lot in Geoffrey of Monmouth's texts. So it's that side of it. I mean, Constantine is 8% of his story, so not a great deal, but he's there. And when you look at Constantine as he appears in Geoffrey of Monmouth, there are elements of his rebellion and his war in Gaul which feature in the story of Arthur.

[Tristan Hughes]

It's such a difficult question, but I'm going to ask it quickly because you mentioned how Constantine is such a significant figure when we imagine about the world Geoffrey's living in the medieval period. When looking back at ancient Rome, do you. Geoffrey's writing this and he knows Constantine's links to Britain and to York and how he's such a significant figure that perhaps he thinks that when I'm creating this Celtic superhero, I must get elements of this significant figure's history in the story, in the creation of Arthur, I.

[Dr. Miles Russell]

Think you're right, he does. And also bear in mind that a lot of the characters like Constantine, although his life story is remembered elsewhere, Geoffrey and other writers give him a British mother. So we see there is this his mother, Helena, who's often actually treated as the patron saint of archaeology because she goes off to the east and she finds evidence of the true cross and Christ's crucifixion, all this stuff. But in various accounts, she's perhaps confused with a Helena character in North Wales. But it's as if Constantine, he's got British heritage, therefore he becomes a king of Britain. But it's vital to get him in there because he's such a significant player in the story, not just of the Roman Empire, but critically, of Christianity and its acceptance. So to have him as one of us. And it's another string to Jeffrey's bow to say the Britons are far more important than the Saxons. You know. Yeah, they Saxons have got monasteries and they convert to Christianity, all that stuff. But the Britons, we've got Constantine as one of us, and therefore, you know, that makes our royal lineage far more significant. You know, you've got Athelstan and Alfred. Yeah, great. But we've got Arthur and Constantine and these people, and they are far more important in world history than any of your lot.

[Tristan Hughes]

Ah, there you go. Always thinking about the Saxons as well in that whole narrative. Very, very interesting indeed. Now, figure number four. We're going further back to late Iron Age Britain and miles the figure of Cassivellornus.

[Dr. Miles Russell]

Yeah, Cassivellaunus, or Cassivelown, as he appears in Geoffrey of Monmouth's text. He's one of those individuals who we do have an independent account of because he features in Julius Caesar's account of his invasion into Britain. And of course, Caesar as the consummate politician, he writes everything down. He justifies all his actions as a series of dispatches from the front line. So in his account of the wars in Gaul, he describes in detail his invasions of Britain in 55 and 54 BC. And in 54 BC, he comes up against a preeminent leader. He's called a preeminent war leader of the Britons called Cassivelaunus. And of course, Cassivelaunus, that name form gets garbled in Geoffrey of Monmouth and becomes Cassibellaun, it appears in other forms as well. But in essence, he is the man who stands up to Caesar. Now, in Caesar's account of the war, he manages to defeat Cassivellaunus, of course, he does, you know, it's Caesar writing and he gets tribute out of him and he leaves. Now, that particular invasion, the great thing about us, because we've got Caesar's account, we can compare it with what Geoffrey of Monmouth writes. And Geoffrey doesn't seem to have Caesar's account to hand, because there's nothing in Caesar's writings that fit Geoffrey of Monmouth's. So perhaps the Gallic wars is not something he had in his library or accessed to. But we get the invasion of 54 BC mentioned twice, but it's two different accounts of that same action. In the first account that Geoffrey gives us, Cassivelaunus is victorious. He drives Caesar into the sea, he defeats him comprehensively and sends the Roman packing. You know, that's what the Britons want to hear. That's what probably in praise poems after that event, that's what people were saying, the Romans have gone, the Gauls were defeated by them, but we kicked him back into the sea, back to where he came from. The second version that appears in Jeffreys, we've got the same invasion, Cassibellaun fighting Caesar, but there is another character in there, and that is a chap called Androgeus, who is a powerful British leader who's on Caesar's side but helps Caesar. Caesar couldn't defeat Cassibellau without Androgeus help, so he's presented as a great warlord who is far greater than Caesar and far greater than Cassivelaunus. So there are three different versions of the same event. One by Caesar or his supporters, one by Cassivellaunus and his lot, and one by Androgeus. Now, Caesar mentions Androgeus, he calls him Mandubrachius and he's of the Trinovantes tribe of Essex. So you've got this Britain on the Roman side. Now, interestingly, in Geoffrey of Monmouth, when he's describing this, Androgeus is presented as the nephew, the treacherous nephew of Cassivellaunus. And when we see Caesar landing and the description giving of the Romans arriving is replicated much, much later on when we get the Saxons invading, the same number of ships, the same battle tactics, and Cassivelaunas is betrayed by Androgeus. When Geoffrey mummers describes Arthur, Arthur is portrayed by his nephew Mordred. And so you get Mandubraccius becomes Mordred and Cassivelaunus, that element of the story gets morphed into Arthur's tale. So no doubt this is a prominent British Iron Age king who is mentioned by the Romans but becomes something very different in Geoffrey and Monmouth's account, depending on who's writing the story. So in some versions, in Geoffrey, Monmouth's Cassivelaunus is the hero. In the other versions, he is an unpleasant character who needs to be defeated. It depends who's giving you that oral tradition. But Geoffrey looks at that completely unfiltered, and doesn't realise it's from two different sources and just tries to blend it into one. So we don't understand why in one stage, Cassivelaunas is the hero and then 10 pages later, he's the villain. It's never explained, but it's because it's two different accounts sort of knitted into this singular account. And the intriguing thing is also, when we look at Geoffrey Monmouth, he keeps talking about. I mean, effectively, there are two prominent royal houses in Britain. There's the House of Cornwall and there's the House of London, and it's their story that filters throughout. And when we look at Cassivelaunas, he is from the House of Cornwall. But when we actually sort of identify these characters and their tribal affiliations, it's not Cornwall and London, it's the Cativelaunay tribe of Hertfordshire and it's the Trinovantes of Essex. It's those two tribal accounts that seem to survive as oral traditions. And perhaps when Geoffrey was writing, the name form was garbled, he didn't understand what Cativellorni was, so it becomes Kernow, or Cornobia becomes Cornwall, and Trinovantes he translates as New Troy, which for him means London. So his geography becomes across the whole of Britain. But whereas the origins are just these two tribal groups fighting for survival in Hertfordshire, in Essex, but Geoffrey transposes that across the whole of Britain.

[Tristan Hughes]

That is super interesting. Slytan. Does he talk about Brittany at all, then, in these links?

[Dr. Miles Russell]

Yes. Yeah. Brittany features quite a lot, especially in Arthur's story. There's lots of later sort of myths that Magnus Maximus, when he goes to Gaul, he sort of invigorates the sort of aristocracy of Brittany. He places his troops there and they sort of intermingle with the local population. And certainly there's a lot of sort of Breton tradition with Arthur. Now, part of that might be because we know there are channel migrations. You know, Brittany is Little Britain and Britain itself is Great Britain. So it might be that the stories migrate across the channel in the 6th, 7th centuries AD, or it might be that Magnus Maximus, just as he was doing in North Wales, was doing something equivalent in Brittany. And that's because The Retin connection becomes attached to Arthur. But. But some accounts also say that Cassivelaunus, having driven Caesar into the sea, then led raids against him in northern Gaul. So, you know, it's all tied up. There is certainly a great oral tradition of these leaders involving themselves in the most northern parts of France.

[Tristan Hughes]

Absolutely. It's so, so interesting, Myles, right there. So we're going to move on to the last and final figure, a figure who I'd never even heard of before, this figure number five, Arviragus.

[Dr. Miles Russell]

Again, we face that problem that a lot of what occurs, what appears in Geoffrey is garbled name forms and presumably they've been mistranslated or the oral tradition has in some way garbled, like Alexander becomes Iskander and various other sort of waveforms. But the story of Arviragus is important because we get Arviragus as a great British leader who is negotiating with the Emperor Claudius. He at some point refuses to pay tribute, tribute to the Emperor, which is what Arthur does. Later the Romans try and invade and Arviragus fights them. Then he becomes allied to them. And there's a key moment when Arviragus marries this great British noble called Genvissa, who is described as the great beauty of her time. And so, and this is later, almost word for word, we get Arthur marrying Gan Humara, who later, you know, becomes Guinevere in later romances. So the whole key element of Arviragus's story with fighting Rome, then allying with Rome and marrying this great beauty, gets added to the key beginning of Arthur's story. Now, it's difficult to really place Arviragus as a historical character, but the name form seems to become a degenerate of Caratarchus, who is probably referred to as Caratacus in other sort of anglicised forms. And Caratacus, Caratarchus is one of those forgotten characters of early Roman Britain. Boudicca sort of takes up all the air of most of our stories of that time because Boudicca in AD 60 leads the great revolt of the Iceni tribe of Norfolk against Roman Colchester, London, St Albans are all burnt to the ground, but Caratarchus is there at the beginning. He is opposing rome from day one in AD 43 when they invade his capital. His centre at Colchester is captured by the Romans. He retreats into Wales and in 47 AD, so some years later he re emerges in what is now South Wales, having galvanised the tribes there to fight the Romans. And then he transfers the centre of operations into North Wales and then he later Goes up, tries to open up another front in what is now Yorkshire with the Brigantes tribe and their queen Cartimania. And she eventually hands him in chains over to the Romans. I don't want you go away. Where you go, the Romans follow. And so he's handed over and he's taken to Rome. In triumph, Claudius has him in a great procession. Caratachus is supposed to give him this great speech saying, why do you envy us in our mud huts when you've got all this marble? I would have greeted you as a friend rather than as a rival. And he gives this great speech. And Claudius, according to the Roman writers like Tacitus, is so impressed by this speech that he lets Caratachus go. He gives him his freedom. He's not allowed to leave Rome, but effectively he's not executed either, which is a plus, you know, and he lives out his life in Rome. So here is this great character who appears in lots of early Welsh literature because he is actually there fighting the Romans on the ground, no doubt. Lots of praise poems around him. Other elements of his story appear in much later tales. So the relationship between Caratachus and Cartimanua gets evolved into sort of Arthur and Guinevere. The betrayal of Guinevere developed from the betrayal of Cartimanja as she hands him over to the Romans. But we see Caradoc and Cradock and Cerdic. All these name variant forms of Caratarchus survive in lots of early Welsh literature. So he is remembered. And these key aspects of him, I mean again, he's another character who leaves Britain and never returns. So it's that once and future king, he's not dead, he will come back and save us. And that gets built into the Arthur story as well. So Arviragus Caratarchus is another character. It's about 24% of his story becomes absorbed into the Arthur tale as presented by Geoffrey of Monmouth.

[Tristan Hughes]

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[Dr. Miles Russell]

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[Dr. Miles Russell]

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[Tristan Hughes]

Connect with the right people with Acast. Visit go.acast.com ads to get started today. There's one part of that last figure, Arviragus, that I would like to specifically ask about. And that's to do with an island off the north coast of Britain, Orkney. Because we do hear in one source, I believe, with Claudius accepting the surrenders of British chiefs, that there is one chief who comes from Orkney. Could this all be linked? I mean, what is the story here? Could there be connections between all of this?

[Dr. Miles Russell]

It is very, very different. I mean, bear in mind the Roman's sense of geography is not quite as accurate as ours. We know that in the 80s AD, so 40 years after Claudius, a Roman fleet does circumnavigate Britain and it is actually an island. And so now that probably got to the Orkneys and so on. There is some Roman material on Orkney and people tried to make a link. I mean, it seems unlikely if the Romans, having invaded Kent and Essex, a delegation would come down from Orkney to surrender that. But then it might just be that the name has become sort of mis. Translated or garbled from another different tribe. And we know that in Geoffrey and Monmouth, the Icene tribe of Norfolk, or Iceni as they're sometimes referred to, are described as Scythians. And the Scythians, of course, are name later given to the Huns. You know, this is a tribe right the way across from the other side of the Black Sea. So Iceni becomes Scythians, Boudicca becomes Soderic, king of the Scythians. So it may be that we are looking at this and saying Orkneys, whereas the Romans were actually using a different tribal name and it's not actually that far north. It would seem odd that a tribe from those far distant islands would A have heard that the Romans had invaded and B sent a delegation down to say we surrender, because, you know, they're so far away, it doesn't really make any odds to them. But the conquest of the Orkneys is represented in Geoffrey Monmouth quite a lot. Arthur conquers the Orkneys with Claudius help. Arviragus Caratakis, he invades the Orkneys. Lots of other characters. It almost becomes like a generic name for taking the whole of Britain. You've conquered everything, including the Orkneys. But quite what the origins of that story are, sadly, we don't know.

[Tristan Hughes]

So actually it's kind of similar to saying, like a Sasanian ruler conquered as far as the Caspian Gates, or the Romans conquered as far as the Pillars of Hercules.

[Dr. Miles Russell]

Yeah, it becomes a byword for the limits of the known world.

[Tristan Hughes]

Absolutely. Gotcha. Now, you've mentioned them in passing as we've chatted These percentages. So I'm going to go to the maths now, Miles, to sum it all up with these five figures, what's the percentages of each of them in the story? The elements of the Arthur story, if.

[Dr. Miles Russell]

You break it down in a purely mathematical way, looking at what Geoffrey Monmouth says, Magnus Maximus is 39%, Caratarchus is 24%, Ambrosius Aurelianus is 16, Cassivelaunus is 12%, Constantine is 8%.

[Tristan Hughes]

Hang on, there's one percentage missing. That's 99%. What is this? 1%.

[Dr. Miles Russell]

Well done. That's good maths. Yeah, there's 1% in there. And basically that just relates. There's an element of Arthur's story where just before he conquers Gaul and fights the Roman emperor, he conquers Norway, you know, he conquers Iceland. And these are aspects that don't actually feature in any other character story in Geoffrey and Monmouth's account. So it's an element that is not repeating something that's gone before. But there have been a lot of invasions from Norway and there are later in his text as well. So it might be something just slipped in there as a sort of giving it back to the Northmen that they have invaded time and time again. But we were there first. The Britons conquered you before you conquered us. And that might be a sly dig at the Normans. Of course, Geoffrey Monmouth is writing in the 1130s in Norman England. He's quite clear he's not a fan of the Normans, quite definitely, but the Normans like what he's writing because they like to link themselves to Arthur. You know, they are doing what Arthur does. They are subjugating the Saxons, the English, and so they connect with Arthur and they like this idea of our grand and glorious heritage in Britain, which they want to connect to. And it might just be Geoffrey having a little sly dig that a hero of his account went and attacked Norway and attacked the land of the Norsemen, the Normans, you know, before they came to Normandy. And it's like he was there before you came to us, but that's. That 1%, 99% belongs to someone else. If you take all these other stories of other characters out of the Arthur tale that Geoffrey gives us, there's nothing left for Arthur. He becomes a non person. So it's quite clear he cannot have existed effectively. As far as Jeffrey is concerned, he is the composite of everyone who's gone before him. Well, he's the five key characters who come before him.

[Tristan Hughes]

I mean, if the Arthur tell is made up of all of these stories from earlier in British history. We've been chatting through this and you did mention her name earlier, Boudicca. Is it surprising or do you think it's not that surprising that actually, of all the figures, even though Boudicca is perhaps the most well known figure from ancient Britain today, that he didn't take any of Boudicca's story for the tale of King Arthur?

[Dr. Miles Russell]

No, Boudicca, she's important to us, absolutely. And she has a key figure in the early history of Roman Britain and gives us a lesson about what it means to side with the Romans, you know, because Boudicca and her husband Prasutagus on the Roman side to begin with, and it's only after his death is her people betrayed by Rome, and we get this huge fiery vengeance raining down upon the key cities. So it's become a major part of our mythology today of British history. But bearing in mind that much of what Geoffrey's writing relates to the tribes of what is now Essex and Hertfordshire in that part of the southeast, Boudicca isn't part of that story. And, you know, the one character who does appear at about the right time is this character, Sodoric, which arguably is a garbleization of Boudicca. And Geoffrey Monmouth turns her into a man. You know, he's King Sodric of the Scythians rather than Queen Boudicca of the Achenae. And she arrives and starts looting stuff, or he arrives and starts looting stuff in Jeffrey's account. And it's swiftly dealt with by a British leader with Roman support. So I think she is there, but her name form has been garbled. And bearing in mind that it's only really from the time of Queen Elizabeth I does Boudicca take on more resonance in Britain because they're looking for historical precedents of strong female characters resisting an alien sort of imperialism. And at the time, Elizabeth I with the Spanish Armada, suddenly Boudicca becomes that model, and she's picked up again during the reign of Charles I, when he's with Catherine of Braganza, she's picked up again with Victoria. And, you know, we get that great big statue that we're familiar with now at the very end of Victoria's reign of Boadicea, with her chariot outside the Houses of Parliament. So Boudicca arguably has become a far more important person in the last 500 years than she probably was at the time. And she doesn't really feature much in Geoffrey and Monmouth's account, rather than this garbled character at the very beginning.

[Tristan Hughes]

Well, there you go. Now, Miles, this has been an incredible chat, talking about what we know about Arthur, particularly from Geoffrey Monmouth. And looking back at ancient Britain, I must ask, before we go, Tristan and Isolde, are there any ancient links to this tale which could be similar to Arthur that you can think of?

[Dr. Miles Russell]

Well, again, I mean, Tristan and Isolde at the court of King Mark. These are very important aspects of Cornish mythology today. And of course, it seems to be that it's their story. I was trying to argue whether or not they were real people or not. But their story is very much linked to the islands of Tintangel and North Cornwall. So you've got King Mark as this powerful leader, and he does appear in other sort of sources. And there's the Drustanus stone, the big memorial stone, parts of the 6th century in southern Cornwall, which could be a precedent for Tristan. But the story of King Mark sending Tristan over to Ireland to bring back Isolde. And Tristan and Isolde fall in love and they sort of. Mark seeks vengeance and they hide on the island. All these sort of things are very much linked to Tintagel. And I think when Geoffrey of Monmouth is writing his text, he's looking for places that he can anchor his story to. And Kelly in South Wales, which is near Monmouth, becomes the court of King Arthur. That's probably a site that Geoffrey knew quite well, the old Roman legionary fortress. But Tintagel becomes the point. Bearing in mind that Arthur is supposed to be descended via his father Uther, from the house of London, but through his mother, from the house of Cornwall. He needs a place for Arthur to be conceived. And Tintagel is so resonant with mythology. The story of Tristan and Isolden Mark that that is where King Goloir, or Gorlois, as some people call him, and Igerna, that's where they are. And that's where Igerna and Uther conceive. Not to put too fine a point on it, Arthur is conceived there, but it becomes such a strong mythical place in Cornicester. It's the ideal place for Geoffrey of Monmouth to place Arthur. He doesn't say he was born there, but certainly his history begins there. And it's later versions of the Trist and Isolde myth that get reworked into the Arthur story. And Tristan becomes Lancelot and Isolde becomes Guinevere. And we get that sort of love triangle between them and Mark becomes Arthur. So much later, that story does get absorbed into it, but I think it was well known at the time. And that's why Geoffrey places Tintagel as Arthur's conception point. That's why when you go to Tintagel today, everything is Arthur connected because it's that side of the story that has been placed there. It becomes one of those key points upon which the whole mythology of Arthur is grounded.

[Tristan Hughes]

Absolutely an absolutely incredible sight down in the southwest. Miles, this has been an incredible chat. Your book on this topic is called.

[Dr. Miles Russell]

Arthur and the King's Abreast, written published by Amberley from all good and probably some bad bookshops.

[Tristan Hughes]

Fantastic. Miles, it's always great to see you. So thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

[Dr. Miles Russell]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[Tristan Hughes]

Well, there you go. There was Dr. Miles Russell talking through the figures, the real life historical figures that helped shape the legendary king of the British Britons, King Arthur. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you for listening. Please follow the Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. You can also follow me on social media. I'm on both Instagram and TikTok. Follow me ncientstristen where I do even more ancient history stuff. Don't forget you can also listen to the Ancients and all of history hits podcasts ad free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries entries when you [e-mail] subscribe now. That's enough from me. Next episode. We're back with some new recordings kicking off 2025 in style and I can't wait to see you then.