James Barnard on Turning Graphic Design Tutorials Into Authority

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Angry Designer – James Barnard on Turning Graphic Design Tutorials Into Authority

Date: October 2, 2025
Guest: James Barnard (@BarnardCo)
Hosts: Massimo, Sean

---

Overview

In this energetic and candid episode recorded at Creative South, the hosts sit down with James Barnard—a graphic designer turned celebrated educator and social media authority—to unpack how sharing design tutorials is a pathway to both authority and business growth. The conversation ranges from James’ conference experience to practical tactics for turning content into client leads, lessons about creative credibility, and the subtle art of social marketing in the design world. Packed with insights, real stories, and tactical takeaways, the episode is a must-listen for designers at every stage.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Life and Vibe at Creative South

• Conference Experience: James talks about the stark difference between Creative South and larger conferences like Adobe Max, emphasizing the warmth and intimacy of the event.
  • “Here, I think, because I'm like one of the speakers and it's a lot smaller. This one's 500 odd people. Everybody knows who's speaking.” (03:00, James)
• Personal Recognition: James remains a regular person at home on the Gold Coast, Australia. At Creative South, he’s notably in demand—a contrast he finds both odd and fun.
  • “Come to places like this and I feel like a... [celebrity], but where I live, nobody knows who I am... It's brilliant.” (03:48, James)

2. Breaking into the Design Scene & Networking

• Australian Design Environment: Australia has pockets of design activity, but James enjoys flying under the radar—while making an effort to network more (AGDA, Brisbane Design Conference, Penny Bridge muralists).
  • “There are little pockets and obviously the agencies and the cities, but yeah, just where I live. I haven't really delved too much into networking in that sense.” (04:33, James)

3. Answering the Audience—Advice for New Designers

• Frequently Asked Question: Most interactions center on soliciting advice for breaking into the industry.
  • “The main question is: Do you have any advice for me? What do I do? I'm just starting out... I've just basically been saying like things like, ‘Don't niche too soon... Get as much experience as you can before you decide.’” (06:04, James)

4. Struggles with Imposter Syndrome and Legacy

• Imposter Syndrome: Even as a well-known educator, James battles feeling less accomplished compared to prolific illustrators showing at events.

  • “My work isn't nearly as good as some of the people here... I'm having this realization lately that I don’t want to leave behind a legacy of nerdy videos about Adobe Illustrator. I want to leave behind some good work.” (07:07, James)

• Shifting Focus: He aims to use his platform to attract higher-profile client work, not just produce educational content.

  • “I'm hopefully going to try and use social media to start bringing in those bigger jobs and selling myself a little bit better rather than just, you know, the education dude.” (07:57, James)

5. The Business of Social Media Sponsorships

• Balancing Authenticity and Income: James is careful about which brands he partners with, refusing low-value or misaligned offers.

  • “There is a certain sort of, you know, because I'm selling away my audience if I, if I cheapen that. And I don't want to cheapen that.” (08:19, James)

• Working with Adobe: Happy to partner where alignment is genuine and content stays authentic.

  • “I’ve never done a project with Adobe where I felt like I’ve gone a little bit icky... We go back and forth and we come up with a script that aligns with both of us. They’re a great partner.” (08:38, James)

• Metrics That Matter: Follower counts are social proof, but engagement is the true value—especially shares via DM.

  • “Follower count means nothing now... You're starting from scratch with every video.” (10:00, James)

6. Secrets to Engaging Design Content

• Winning Formula for Virality: Practical, silent, music-driven tools/tips videos (“bombshell” tips) outperform others.

  • “Here’s how it goes: You go, no dialogue, absolute cracker of a song. Show a frustrated face, then solve the problem... [Bombshell videos] always kill.” (12:06, James)
  • Example: Variable type in Illustrator set to the track Tarz Boy by Baltimore generated a million views. (13:10, James)

• Diversity in Content Styles: Intersperses viral “how-to” videos with deeper, on-camera explains, fostering sustainable enjoyment and authority.

  • “Every like fourth video will be like bombshell viral video. Now you're here, now I've got you. Let's have a little chat and I'll show you some stuff. And that I find so much more sustainable.” (23:14, James)

7. The Authority-Building Loop: See One, Do One, Teach One

• Benefits of Sharing Knowledge: Content creation cements James’ own understanding, pushes him to research topics, and refines his mastery.
  • “The more I was sharing the information, the better I was retaining that information.” (14:46, James)
• Educational Content as Business Magnet: Smart case studies in video form now outperform static carousels—for both peers and clients.
  • “It might be under the disguise of educational content, but actually I know clients are watching and there's stuff in there for them and there's a call to action at the end.” (16:32, James)

8. Content That Converts: Case Studies Over Hard Sells

• Indirection Wins: Content that shows problem-solving and process works better than overt sales pitches.

  • “There's nothing more off-putting than selling hard to someone over a video... Instead, you show: Look at the great work we're doing, this is our process.” (18:17, James)

• Turn Content into Leads: When content is both educational and a showcase for client work, it triggers inbound inquiries (70 leads in a day after a viral video—19:55).

9. Storytelling as the Backbone

• Case Study Video Structure:

  • Hook (bombshell problem)
  • Setup (client/problem)
  • Conflict
  • Resolution
  • Call-to-action
    (25:56, James)

• Importance of a Compelling Start and Clear Story Arc: Essential for both viewers and prospective clients.

• Notable Quote:
  “If you can't, like at the start, hook them in... You’ll lose people so fast.” (25:21, James)

10. Challenging Design Formulas & Overused ‘Rules’

• Golden Ratio and Design Clichés: Cautions against formulaic design relying on trends like the Fibonacci spiral; emphasizes experience and subjectivity.
  • “The point of those sort of formulas is to start with them and then tweak... use your eye to correct it and use your experience as a Designer to bring that to something that, you know, you feel happy with.” (30:00, James)
• Optical Illusion Tricks in Typography: Delighting in the quirks of readability and why not every formula fits every design need.

11. Presenting to Clients: The Rational, Visual Approach

• Presentation Order Matters: From mockups showing real-world use-cases, to rationale and logo scalability, James advocates a sequence that wins client buy-in and saves rounds of revision.

  • “If you prove to them within that presentation early on that that logo is going to hold up in that format, really striking, then you've already sold them on it.” (40:37, James)

• Letting Clients Sit With Work: Prefers sending PDFs for thoughtful feedback, not instant reactions (41:42).

  • “I've learned over the years how to sell in the design... I send them the design via PDF and I let them sit on it for a couple of days before we have a chat.” (41:42, James)

12. Final Takeaways and Inspiration

• Biggest Lesson from Creative South: Offboarding matters—end client projects on a surprising, positive note (gift, print, or memento), not just with an invoice or testimonial request.
  • “Offboarding is more important than onboarding... Make sure it's a good [final interaction].” (44:04, James)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I want to leave behind a legacy of good work, great client work. I don't want to leave behind a legacy of nerdy design videos. I want people to remember me for the work that I put out there.”
  – James Barnard (16:32)

• “Sharing what they know together will build the industry up as a whole, but [it] can as a side effect bring you more business.”
  – James Barnard (13:48)

• “There’s nothing more off-putting than selling hard to someone over a video... It's quite pushy and maybe even like desperation.”
  – James Barnard (18:17)

• “If you prove to them within that presentation early on that that logo is going to hold up in that format, really striking, then you’ve already sold them on it.”
  – James Barnard (40:37)

• “Offboarding is more important than onboarding. When you finish up with a client, go that extra mile, send them something in the post... That's the last interaction you're going to have with them for a while.”
  – James Barnard (44:04)

---

Useful Timestamps

• Creative South experience: 01:27–05:18
• Imposter syndrome and legacy: 06:57–07:57
• Brand partnerships & engagement: 08:14–11:03
• Content strategy and types: 11:36–13:28
• The “See One, Do One, Teach One” approach: 13:47–15:51
• Turning content into leads, case studies as client magnets: 16:32–19:59
• Storytelling elements in content: 25:21–26:18
• Challenging design formulas and rules: 26:51–31:17
• Presenting to clients, selling your work: 38:30–42:37
• Final inspiration: Offboarding clients: 43:34–44:57

---

Actionable Takeaways for Designers

• Balance content between entertainment, education, and authority-building. Don’t pigeonhole yourself as just an educator—showcase your best project work and process.
• Prioritize engagement over vanity metrics. Structure content to generate shares and meaningful interactions, not just likes or follower growth.
• Use storytelling to convert viewers to clients. Even fun, viral tips videos serve growth when interspersed with process-driven, story-structured case studies.
• Prepare for, and savor, the offboarding process. A surprise at a project’s end can generate referrals and positive recollection.

---

Where to Find James Barnard

• Instagram & Socials: @BarnardCo
• Website: barnard.co

---

James leaves listeners inspired to share what they know—honestly, entertainingly, and effectively—turning every tutorial, tip, and case study into ongoing business and authority.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

You're listening to the Angry Designer podcast, where we help frustrated graphic designers crush the industry chaos, ditch the social BS and build badass, rewarding careers that actually pay now. Powered by WIX Studio.

[Massimo]

What's up, Angry Designers? We are back yet again for a fantastic interview here at Creative south with our good new awesome friend, Mr. James Bernard.

[James Bernard]

You guys sick of me yet? I feel like we've bonded this weekend. We've hung out a lot, haven't we?

[Massimo]

And I was talking to my wife and I was like, he's our new buddy.

[James Bernard]

I'm actually. It's nice to see some friendly faces here. Even though we've never met in person. This is absolutely great to tell your audience. You guys met me at the airport.

[Massimo]

At the airport.

[James Bernard]

Literally waiting for me at the baggage reclaim. That was amazing.

[Massimo]

That was crazy.

[James Bernard]

The two hour ride in on the bus, that was lovely. Just cuddling in those seats, trying to stay warm.

[Massimo]

Yeah, it was, it was kind of a tight, you know, seat there, but we couldn't shut up. I think everybody in that bus probably hated us.

[Sean]

Yes.

[James Bernard]

Because it was just passengers. Maybe didn't want to hear about agency and logo design for the two hour trip.

[Sean]

What was. And you had the stopwatch out. What was that final.

[James Bernard]

Oh, okay. So proper dad thing to do. Start the stopwatch.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Leave the house and then stop it when you get to the other end. 56 hours, door to door, crashed onto that bed. Just did not stay to sleep for like a good 12 hours. After that, I was, I was done.

[Massimo]

This is kind of a cool different vibe than. Because you've done a lot of big conferences.

[James Bernard]

I've done the Dobie Max a few times. Yeah. It's very different. Obviously a lot more people, little bit longer. But this is something else. There's nothing quite like this. First of all, Mike is just Mike Jones. He is unbelievable human being. Yes, he is. How hard has he been working over the last three, four, you know, months to get this ready? And scandalous from Eventbrite. I didn't know that. He told us at the start of the conference that Eventbrite holds all of the money for the conference until after the finish date. So all of those ticket sales, he hasn't seen any of that. He's been like building this whole thing off of the funds from last year and imagine how hard that is to do this. So, yeah, they've launched their own ticketing system this year to kind of turn on them.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

What a killer. Anyway, he's, he's unbelievable to let your audience Know, he was waiting for us in the lobby of the hotel at like 1 in the morning.

[Massimo]

Right.

[James Bernard]

And he was open on Georgia hospitality. Like, give us the biggest hug. Is the biggest man I've ever seen.

[Massimo]

You're pretty tall.

[James Bernard]

Yeah. Unbelievable. But, yeah, what a guy.

[Massimo]

So. And okay. And every time we look over for James, there's always like a crowd around you or people lined up to talk to you and stuff. Right. And, and you're not set up at a table. You literally, literally just wander around and people kind of.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

So, like, what is it? Is that what some of the other conferences are like, or.

[James Bernard]

To an extent, yeah. I mean, here, I think, because I'm like one of the speakers and it's a lot smaller. This one's 500 odd people. Everybody knows who's speaking. Right. And with things like Adobe Max, there's loads of different events over loads of days and some of them are running concurrently here. You kind of, you have to watch it, you know, little speakers and so I, I, I'm being recognized. It's quite. Where I live. I fly completely under the radar. Nobody knows who I am or what I do. It's brilliant. Come to places like this and I feel like a.

[Massimo]

Well, you said that the design scene wasn't quite as fleshed out as something like out here, right?

[James Bernard]

Yeah, well, where I live specifically, there's.

[Massimo]

Not how I, I know. Australia seemed to be quite pretty advanced, you know, on the programmatic side. I mean, it's, it's a big tech place. A lot of, lot of, a lot of software companies out there.

[James Bernard]

I mean, shit.

[Massimo]

Canvas out there, right?

[James Bernard]

Well, I didn't know that, so.

[Massimo]

Yeah, right. Canvas in Australia.

[Sean]

Really?

[James Bernard]

I didn't know that.

[Massimo]

Wait, Unless I got it wrong, but I'm pretty sure.

[Sean]

Hold on.

[James Bernard]

Yeah, let me double check. We were talking about road mics the other day. They're in Australia. Yeah.

[Sean]

That was cool.

[James Bernard]

Yeah. But you know, the design scene where I live, I live in a little, and I live on the Gold coast, but I live on the north end of the Gold coast, away from the kind of the hubbub of the city. And I've got, you know, lots of people in golf carts around me. There's, you know, bit of money where I live. It's like a kind of like a, almost a retirement community. But I like, I love it, I love that it's very quiet, it's very peaceful, but no one knows what I do or who I am, so it's brilliant. So you're just like some random dude yeah, it's great.

[Massimo]

Just to clarify, CANVA was started in Australia but has since moved to Texas and still has offices in Australia. So.

[James Bernard]

Okay, a little bit of a story.

[Massimo]

But there is a design. Design scene of course there, but I guess it's a matter of just trying to find it.

[James Bernard]

Yeah, well, there's programs like agda, the Australian Graphic Design association and they have awards each year. The Brisbane Design Conference is just up the road for me, so that there are little pockets and obviously the agencies and the cities, but yeah, just where I live. I haven't really sort of delved too much into like networking in that sense and I've been trying to do a little bit better on that, going to events and things like that. And then I've got like the penny bridge guys who are down the road for me. Guys, they're amazing. I'm hoping to get a bit of mural practice with Kyle. He's going to hopefully include me on his next project.

[Sean]

Really?

[Massimo]

You know what you do?

[James Bernard]

Just show up, stand behind him, Kyle, if you're watching. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just stand behind him, that's all. Yeah, exactly. Just like take pictures and stuff. I'll do a social media for the day.

[Massimo]

Just add yourself to that project.

[James Bernard]

Throw by my way in on that one.

[Massimo]

So. So I think what's the biggest shock factor for you coming to this place?

[James Bernard]

The temperature, first of all, like, I was in like Aussie attire when I got on the plane and then it was in shorts and a T shirt when I landed in Vancouver at minus 4 degrees. Shock factor here. I mean, hospitality.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

So good. The food, it's unbelievable. They really are genuinely nice people. It is very, very welcome, especially from like all of the, the guests at this conference. Everyone's coming up, shaking my hand. Mike hugs me every time he sees me come around the corner. It's a beautiful place.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah.

[Massimo]

Are you. Do you find that you're getting a lot of the same questions? Are people are getting advice or are they just starstruck?

[James Bernard]

No, no, I definitely get a lot of questions. The main question is, do you have any advice for me? What do I do? I'm just starting out nice. Clearly look very old and tired because I look like I've got some experience. The beards coming through. What grays are coming through on my beard. But yeah, I've just basically been saying like things like don't niche too soon and you know, all of those advice, like as much experience as you can before you decide what you want to do. And. And then that leads on I start rambling and then I kind of SW a little bit and then. Okay, bye. Yeah, it's been fun.

[Massimo]

So your journey has gone, like, you literally started to web. You went, you know, we know, your stern, your whole journey, web. And then it went to design. So now you are like, you know, where am I? Where am I going with this? So now you're like a design icon here at this place. Okay. But a lot of your background is different. Okay. Does that ever play mess with your mind still?

[James Bernard]

You mean like imposter syndrome? Well, the thing is, it doesn't.

[Massimo]

Not in the same way as imposter syndrome, but kind of like, you know, and not that you can't do it because you've obviously proven you can do it.

[James Bernard]

Yeah. One of the kind of like niggling little feelings I'm having at the minute is that my work isn't nearly as good as some of the people here. Like, this place is full of illustrators who do incredible work. They're all selling merch and selling T shirts, and every one of their stickers is unreal. I had a few stickers printed for the conference and they're like, the design sucks on them. Like, it's like my face on a couple of the others and one of my logos. Um, but I'm having this, like, realization lately that I don't want to leave behind, like a legacy of nerdy videos about Adobe Illustrator. I want to leave behind some good work. And I've been. I really want to use this platform now to start pushing more leads to my business rather than just relying on the education side of things, which I've kind of been like, putting quite a lot of work into. Yeah, very lucrative. Um, but at the same time, I want to leave behind some good work and I'm going to do that by getting higher profile clients and I'm hopefully going to try and use social media to start bringing in those bigger jobs and selling my. Myself a little bit better rather than just, you know, the education dude.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Makes it kind of nerdy, but that's okay, right? No, but how are you going to find that balance then with a. Because, I mean, again, you. You can't turn away a sponsor.

[James Bernard]

Right.

[Massimo]

Because that's fantastic. Okay, fair enough, fair enough. Maybe once you get to a certain point.

[James Bernard]

Yeah, maybe. Maybe, Yeah. I mean, you know, I still got a lot of emails through. Okay, so we're going to offer you 125 bucks for a video on an AI tool. You keen them like. I am not. Yeah, yeah. There is A certain sort of, you know, because I'm selling away my audience if I, if I cheapen that. And I don't want to cheapen that. And I do partner with people, obviously. Like, people like Adobe.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Because I'm already, you know, in their software teaching the likes of Illustrator and Photoshop and InDesign all day. Why not get paid for that? Right? Yeah. And my message totally aligns with, you know, what they put out there. And I've never, like, done a project with Adobe where I felt like I've gone a little bit icky and said something that I probably shouldn't. Just to kind of sell their service. We go back and forth and we come up with a script that, you know, aligns with both of us and they're a great partner.

[Sean]

They're pretty hands off that way.

[James Bernard]

Like to an extent, they have a message they want to put across and the way they work is they obviously, if they have like a new product launch, they want that message out in the world as much as possible. So you'll probably see like in a day, you know, 10, 20, 30 designers on places like Instagram and TikTok will all post at the same time. So you kind of like, they control the timing of it a little bit. So when there's a new product launch, you will see it. Yeah, social media, because everyone's kind of posting about it. So that's them kind of controlling that. Not controlling the narrative, but controlling the, you know, the space for a little bit so that they can make sure that these new products get into the hands of the people who want to use them. Yeah, sorry, I rambled that.

[Massimo]

No, no, no, that's okay. I think we're all kind of in the same line here when it comes to someone like that. What do you think? What do you think sponsors are looking for? Adobe, like, you know, obviously, but other ones, are they looking for just, are they just looking at your followers? Is it a combination of followers and personality, your commitment to your user? Like what?

[James Bernard]

Well, it's definitely a niche, so they will know that you have a certain type of follower. But the problem is these days is that follower count means nothing now. Yeah, like you're, you're starting from scratch with every video. If your video doesn't perform, you know, you're not going to get the views like you used to. Follower account doesn't equal engagement or views anymore. Follow account is kind of like the social proof behind what you say and what you, you do. Like, people come to your account and see you've Got half a million followers. It's like, oh, who's this guy? They take you a bit more seriously, maybe. But realistically, I get terrified when I do brand partnerships because I could post something in it or flop my chance. However many thousands of dollars for a post and it bombs. That's really embarrassing from my side.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

So they're coming to me for my experience with making a video more engaging and maybe even a bit more viral. They want to get that message out there. And so I've got experience at doing that. I kind of know the tricks and the tools now, how to make a video more engaging, how to tell a bit of a better story, show the conflict, show the resolution, show the call to action, that kind of thing. And that's what they're looking for now.

[Sean]

Okay.

[James Bernard]

Yeah, interesting.

[Sean]

How do you.

[Massimo]

How do you get engagement, though, on an audience? Like, is it just. Is it just comments? Is it dms? Is it like. Okay, because I'm guessing there's no way to metrically track it, so the main.

[James Bernard]

One right now is shares via dm, especially on Instagram, I imagine. So if you can find a way to make a post shareable. And hey, like, people want to tell their friends in the industry about this cool new thing, you make it like a shareable kind of a bombshell moment that kind of. They can't not send to their friends. That's. That's a really great way to get it. But that's kind of hard to do.

[Sean]

Yes.

[James Bernard]

And kind of hard to track as well. This, you know, I have, like, the pillars of content. I do like software tips and tricks. I do case studies about the industry. I do Bombshell Illustrator tips set to an absolute banger of a track. Those always kill, especially when there's no dialogue and I'm not talking on camera because then there's no language barrier.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Global audience. That's always huge.

[Sean]

Yeah. Cool.

[James Bernard]

And then, like, just me wanting to have fun and doing funny stuff and, like, dicking around.

[Massimo]

Which ones. Which ones tend to work better?

[James Bernard]

The Bombshell Illustrator ones. The ones once, if you. Right, here's how it goes. You go, no, no dialogue to absolute cracker of a song. You find some. A problem within Adobe Illustrator or some other piece of software. You show a frustrated face, like, and then you solve that problem with something new or something like, under the radar that people might not have seen before. Something like using the pencil tool to manipulate a vector by drawing over it and it's snapping to the vector. Another one was this new feature in Photoshop. Where you can now live trace as a vector from a pixelated piece of artwork just by clicking on it with a pencil even. Yeah, it's like, it's a bit sketchy, the tool.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Temperamental. That was like 8 million views. Yeah. And then you just set it to an absolute cracker of a song. And if you can time your reactions and the movement of the camera to the music, people will actually kind of notice that and they really appreciate it. I did a video recently about variable type in Illustrator. And you know the sliders that you can use in Illustrator to make your type heavier or lighter.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

And I. I put it to the track Tarz Boy by Baltimore. I timed the slider to the. To the. And it popped off like a million views across everything. It's so funny. That's good, Good fun. So, okay, how.

[Massimo]

How do people who don't have that. Well, first of all, is there still a place for a lot of new designers or small design businesses to actually use some of this stuff and achieve these kind of.

[James Bernard]

So we're recording this right now before I've spoken on stage at Creative south, and that's what my talk's going to be about, so. Well, nice lead in there. You like that?

[Massimo]

You almost think that my Talk is.

[James Bernard]

Called C1, Do1, Teach1. And again, it's about like, oh, I like everybody sharing what they know together will build the industry up as a whole, but it can as a side effect of bringing you more business.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

So there's ways about it. I mean, before social media, I would go into my creative director. My old job used to get us to meet in the morning, maybe like Tuesday morning or something early in the week before it became a madhouse, every one of the team would have like, five minutes to present and then show something new or cool that week that they'd seen or maybe something that we as a team might be able to incorporate into our working lives. And everybody, like, really inspired and had the added bonus of making everyone on the team a little bit better at public speaking, getting out of their shell a little bit, you know, losing that kind of introverted. Especially the developers who like to sort of hunker down, like, yeah, do their thing. And it meant that over time we. We realized that. Well, I certainly realized that the more I was sharing the information, the better I was retaining that information.

[Sean]

Yeah, that's true.

[James Bernard]

And especially with, like, social media and doing my Illustrator tips and tricks, I find I'm remembering this information way better now. And as soon as I started, you know, the, the training got going with social media and I started doing better and better. I started like going into the weeds a little bit and dipping into like, what, you know, what's the difference between CMYK and rgb? Like, additive and subtractive color. I didn't know that terminology before I did that video actually. Now, now, now I'm learning new stuff and explaining it on social media in an effort to create more content. I'm actually becoming a better designer.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

And learning these, like, unique principles that I might not have known before. I should have known. Additive and subtractive color. I just, I knew the difference, like, how it actually worked, but I didn't know the terminology. And then, and then weirdly later on, I did the Adobe Certified Illustrator exam. I became a certified professional, like, as an effort to kind of get a bit of, you know, more credentials behind my name. And it fucking came up, up on the exam. One of the questions. No way. It was like, honestly, I made, I posted the video about like additive, like, why don't we use RGB ink in our printers? Yeah. That was the theme of the video.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

And like six days later I took the exam and that fucking question came up. I was like, easy peasy. And I passed that exam with flying colors.

[Sean]

Right? That's awesome. Yeah.

[Massimo]

So, okay, so then, so then people can actually learn from you, build their own materials, get their stuff online. How do, how do they cross that, that, that, that chasm when. Because if it's not just about follower count, right. And it's more about engagement, what is that? What is that next step for them to take it for their business, where it's like, it now becomes a platform where they get leads and where it's, it's a magnet for future leads, not just likes.

[James Bernard]

And like a design influencer. Yeah, you actually, I mean that, this is the whole point of, of why I was doing this in the first place. And I've kind of forgot that over the last six months or so. So I'm trying to go back, you know, I want to leave, we're saying, off it. I want to leave behind a legacy of good work, great client work. I don't want to leave behind the legacy of nerdy design videos. Right. I want, I want people to, I want people to remember me for the work that I put out there. And I'm going to use the social media platform to drive more leads to my business. And there's, there's a few ways to do it. You know, great case studies is one. Especially when you're rather than like in the old days of Instagram, you would share like a carousel or some flat post, like here's a cool project I worked on instead. Now the trend is to do that in a video and to tell that story and explain the problem the client had and how I solved that problem for them with this banger logo and visual identity. And now I'm not only like showing my process to any clients that might be watching, I'm also sharing the process for any junior designers that might want to learn. So serving both audiences completely. You know, it might be under the disguise of educational content, but actually I know clients are watching and there's stuff in there for them and there's a call to action at the end. Go to my website to see more images from the projects and I'm secretly serving that audience. All while educating us.

[Massimo]

So years ago I tried something stupid like creating material to educate my, my, my, my customers or the people I wanted as customers.

[James Bernard]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

They failed miserably.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

You know, I think, I think in all fairness it got me a couple interesting leads and this and that, but reverse effect. So what is it? Why is it that when you're trying to create material for work versus indirectly work, does the one indirectly seem to work more than direct?

[James Bernard]

Yeah. There's nothing more like off putting than selling hard to someone over a video. Do you know what I mean? It has that feeling of like quite pushiness and maybe even like desperation.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

You can see the whites of your eyes when you're like, do you want to get a logo from me.

[Massimo]

That didn't work.

[James Bernard]

They can see the panic in your eyes and like, and they, you know, it's kind of off putting if you're. Instead you show. Look at the great work we're doing. This is our process. You guys are the designers. Maybe you want to follow along clients you're watching to check out our website and check out how we do things. And when a new client comes along and they are online.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

You know, sometimes a client, especially like a small business will go, I need a new brand, I need a new logo or visual identity. And they'll go to places they might even want to try it for themselves. And they're just exploring. They go out there, how do you make a great logo? How? Maybe they even try it themselves in the practice is they come across a problem and they google that problem and there you are suddenly like, who's this guy?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Yeah. And then they dive into that little rabbit hole of all of my content and they binge it and suddenly like, yeah, why not just go straight to the source here and the expert who's teaching the other designers how much is his work? And yeah, now they're on your website. And this is another thing as well. Like, you got to have your ducks in a row.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

From a, you know, a contact point of view, if your website is out of date, if it's not easy to get in touch with you, if you're not showing your best work or you're the work or more of the work that you want to do, you're failing at the first hurdle they're going to, you know. Yeah, you're not ready unless you got all of those ducks in a row. And that was one of the things that I feel like I capitalized on when I first went viral on TikTok, is I had my bloody ducks in a row.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

And so that first viral moment led to something like 70 leads in a single day.

[Massimo]

Holy.

[James Bernard]

Which was like more leads than I'd had in like a week, than I'd had in the previous six months combined. Wow. From one video. And I was like, yes, hell, I need to be doing this. But again, it was because I had. I'd had experience as a designer to know how to show up online and I was already doing a few things. Like I'd written some articles, doing a bit of SEO work, trying to get people in that way. What else? I was like, my, you know, the work of my portfolio was very focused. It showed only the clients that I wanted to do more work of and the jobs that I was the most proud of. So it was about having the best work there. So when that, you know, opportunity knocks, you're ready for it, right?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

And now a word from our sponsor.

[Podcast Host]

All right, designers, let's cut the bowl. How many times have you had a killer website design only to watch it fall apart because of code or developer telling you no, no, no. Or maybe you've held back from web design altogether, thinking it's just too complicated and too technical or totally out of your wheelhouse. Either way, it's time for a change. WIX Studio is designed for. For designers, removing the barriers that limits your designs. Whether you're tired of developers watering down your ideas or too intimidated by the technical side of web, WIX Studio puts the creative power back in your hands. No code required. With a drag and drop interface that feels designer intuitive. Plus no code, animations and even AI powered tools, you can create fully custom websites that match your vision. Every pixel, every detail.

[Massimo]

And if you're worried about the learning curve. Don't be.

[Podcast Host]

Wix Studio is designed to feel as intuitive as your favorite design tools. Some designers here even say more. So that means you can jump right in and focus on what you do best. Designing badass brand aligned website sites that'll take your business to the next level. So whether you've had enough of developers holding you back or you're ready to finally step into web design, check out wix studio.com and take control. That's wix studio.com go and take back web design for graphic designers.

[Massimo]

How important is it then to. Because it sounds like a lot of the videos. Besides of course having the back end fixed up the front end. And you're shooting for credibility, not necessarily shooting for views. Like, you know, the mistake of hard selling versus how you are just kind of becoming.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

An authority.

[James Bernard]

Right. So there's, I mean a lot of people on social media are looking for the views and the followers and gaining that social proof. And like there's ways to do that like, like I was talking about before with those very viral videos.

[Sean]

Yeah. Yeah.

[James Bernard]

You can just do those all day long and there are people that just. That's all they do. Yeah. I interspersed that content with lots of on camera explainer stuff, videos that I like to make. You know what I mean? Like, well, I'm actually enjoying the process and maybe let's dive into the weeds a little bit about why you shouldn't use the golden ratio all the time. Maybe you should just use it as a tool, not as a rule and like, and actually talk for a bit longer on camera so you know, every like fourth video will be like bombshell viral video.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Now you're here, now I've got you. Let's have a little chat and I'll show you some stuff. And that I find that so much more sustainable.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

As a content creator, you know, actually having, getting some enjoyment out of it and putting it out some, you know, diving into the weeds a bit and maybe me learning a little bit and actually doing some research rather than just like telling everybody all the same old stuff that we all know and love. Why don't I go out there and learn some stuff about additive and bloody subtractive color.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Share that with the world.

[Massimo]

So having, having every, every new person out there, you know, creating videos about additive versus subtractive, it's probably not going to, you know, bear well for you in, in that sense. But what are other ways for these people to create content that gives them credibility? Like what should they be focusing on other than just how tos. Like, is there other things?

[James Bernard]

Yeah, well, I think like, especially with the case study stuff, that's a great idea because they, they, they, they're great lead generators. If you can get one of those videos to pop off and really tell the story of what happened, that's like, it's, it's so rewarding because you're, you're showing in the video the problem that you solved for the client. You're showing the value of what you do rather than just how you did it.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

You're like, you know, a client came to me with this problem. They had an old logo. It wasn't cutting the mustard anymore. They had loads more touch points. They needed a more versatile design. This is how we did it. Here were my constraints. It wasn't an easy job. It's how we broke through those constraints and how I dealt with the feedback. Yeah. And if you like, those videos are longer. They don't do nearly as well online because they're past a minute mark and like, yeah. Really do have to stay around to the end for your video to kind of, of pop off. But I know clients are watching those. Yes. Especially when I can take that video later and put it on my website as a, as a sort of case study video for the project and just sum up in a, you know, short form thing. This is what happened and this is how it ended up. And you know, if I'm, especially if I'm proud of the work, which I usually am.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

That's unbelievable. You wouldn't believe how many leads I get through that kind of content. It's so good.

[Massimo]

But it makes sense though.

[James Bernard]

It's hard to do. It's not an easy thing to do because you really do have to know how to tell a story. You'll lose people so fast.

[Sean]

Yes.

[James Bernard]

If you can't, like at the start, hook them in. So there's like four main elements to telling that story is the hook at the start of the video. So big ass bombshell problem that I am about to solve. Act one is the setup.

[Sean]

Yep.

[James Bernard]

So here's the client. This is the problem. This is what we need to face. Act two is the conflict. Okay, so we had this problem with this client. They had a really, really tricky brand guidelines and they need to stick under this. You know, we had a massive deadline conflict, like resolution. I totally pushed through this project. I nailed it. Look how great I am. And then call to action is the end. Okay, so 1, 2, 3, 4.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

5. 5, yeah. So hook set up conflict resolution. Call to action.

[Massimo]

Call to action.

[James Bernard]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Nice.

[James Bernard]

So, yeah. And so like that first time I ever went viral on TikTok. And it was total luck, by the way. But I've since analyzed the fucking hell out of this clip to see why it went viral. And I figured it out. The only thing it was missing was like a call to action because I didn't know what I was doing.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

But, you know, I went back, I was like, this is why this worked. This is. This had all these key elements. And I understand now what that.

[Massimo]

But a call to action on. On a social. It's not. Just come check me out at this feed. Like, yeah, well, so get more creative about it.

[James Bernard]

Follow me for more. But the main one with the case study is like, there are more images with this project on my website if you want to know. Got it. They're all there. Check them out. Yeah, and that's like, they're on my website now. Okay. Funnel time, let's go.

[Sean]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Massimo]

So you said something that I thought was really kind of funny. Using the Fabinachi, you know, as a. As a tool, not a rule.

[James Bernard]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Of all the research you've done, how many stupid rules have you?

[James Bernard]

Okay.

[Massimo]

Because God knows.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

I'm sure we've all seen the trouble.

[James Bernard]

Is with that is right. People love when you can apply a simple formula to graphic design and spit out a beautiful result. And the golden ratio, for a lot of people, it feels like that, doesn't it? Okay, so I'm just going to size my type now. Heading type as 70 pixels. I want to multiply that by 0.61, the golden ratio to bring it down. And look at that.

[Sean]

Yep.

[Massimo]

Done.

[James Bernard]

H1. H2.

[Massimo]

Done.

[James Bernard]

Body copy. Nailed it.

[Massimo]

Formulate graphic design or people will draw.

[James Bernard]

Out the spiral, the golden spiral, and pull the circles from it and design a logo with it. And I'm like, well, that works easy, this logo design stuff, isn't it?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

So that video I made about the God ratio was kind of both arguments. Yes. You can use it sometimes it works. And isn't that amazing? Most of the time, not so much. Maybe use it as a starting point.

[Sean]

Right.

[James Bernard]

Go from there. Use your eye, you know, take into account the optical illusions within graphic design. And I love videos like that. They. Yeah, they do really well. Like the Mueller Liar illusion about overshoot and type. Why your O is slightly like taller than the X height. Yeah. The Poggendorf illusion, when two lines go through a barrier and they come out the other Side, the one on the bottom feels taller.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

And you have to account for that in typography with the X as it passes through another.

[Massimo]

I know. And it's off center. Right, right.

[James Bernard]

I love that stuff. That's so subjective for a lot of people. And it's not like a one size fits all approach. You have to just eyeball it.

[Sean]

Yes.

[James Bernard]

And there's no way around it. I love that. And explaining why that happens. So I was going to do like a course in like optical illusions within design was so nuanced that I think many people would buy that.

[Massimo]

But you know what, they're so true to that because, you know, if people are just applying formulas to graphic design. Right. You know, there's no room for this subjective, you know, interpretation of your design.

[James Bernard]

Right.

[Massimo]

I mean that Fibonacci. I kind of. When I set up type following the form, I find it boring. It's not my style.

[James Bernard]

Right.

[Massimo]

Generally bigger, bolder. I like more extremes. But other people, they kill it with it.

[James Bernard]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

But if you're. If you set up all these rules, everything starts looking the same.

[James Bernard]

That's right. So there's loads of videos out there about, like how to size the type against your logo mark.

[Massimo]

Dude, those are me nuts. Because I know there isn't just a.

[James Bernard]

Hey, they don't work.

[Massimo]

WW Take your first letter and put.

[Sean]

It all the way.

[James Bernard]

Sometimes they do. The point of those videos and I know like James, Marty does a lot of great work with that. Like, sorry. Yeah, sorry. We love you. Sorry.

[Sean]

We love you.

[James Bernard]

So with those, it's a great starting point. And he, he actually did something, he did a Instagram post about like years ago about using. Let's say you make a portrait version of your logo and you've got your mark and you've got your logo type underneath and it's wider than the logo mark. Do a one in three rule. So put your logo three times across and put the type that exact width and take the two side logos out of the way. And it does work. Until it doesn't. Until your logo mark is a little bit visually heavier than it might be. It might be.

[Massimo]

Or if your type must be double the.

[James Bernard]

Yeah. If you're using like a wide typeface and suddenly that's. You can't read it anymore.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

So the point of those sort of formulas is to start with them and then tweak.

[Sean]

Yeah. Yeah.

[James Bernard]

So use it as like the rule of thumb.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

And then go in and then use your eye to correct it and use your experience as a Designer to bring that to something that, you know, you feel happy with, with. And it feels balanced, you know, you.

[Massimo]

You know, when you see. And I mean you see this everywhere. They'll take the logo and then after the fact, they'll show you the overlays of circles on it. The light like the blueprint. Do you think people build logos like this or do you think they'll add those afterwards?

[James Bernard]

Totally. I hope they do because I. I would feel like, you know, very, very small as the designer that I'm not, you know, I can't make those work.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

For. For ages. People would be A really big trend on Instagram was to. To sketch using those circles or do like a be sketch to vector.

[Sean]

Yes. Right.

[James Bernard]

You like, you know, really well hand drawn sketch. And watch how I traced it and illustrated. It was like. Yeah, yeah. I don't like that. My sketches is terrible. I'm in the software as fast as possible, trying to make it look polished and clean. I was talking about with Alan Peters yesterday. I can't draw for shit.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

So I think like, you know, having design, doing your design in that way just feels like you're trying to conform to the grid almost. And it's important you don't do that. You know, you've got to break out of it. And those Fibonacci things, when people stick to them, they don't account for the things like that. Fibonacci spiral doesn't fit within an A4 piece of paper. Right.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

You know, 1920 by 1080 screen. Suddenly you have to. That grid doesn't work anymore. And, you know, you've got to break out of those patterns a little bit.

[Massimo]

Jeez. I never thought about that actually, I. Until this very moment.

[James Bernard]

Videos, that's what.

[Massimo]

I can't. I keep falling asleep in them.

[James Bernard]

Oh, snap.

[Sean]

I only watch the old designer, new designer once.

[James Bernard]

Oh, yeah.

[Sean]

I'm just kidding.

[Massimo]

I do.

[James Bernard]

That's a great.

[Sean]

Because I relate to that.

[James Bernard]

Yeah.

[Sean]

I see you young.

[James Bernard]

That's a fun way for your audience. It's so old me doing things a certain way versus new me, all frustrated. Yeah. And of course I'm like, I've got no one to do my videos with. I'm in my office by myself. I play both parts.

[Massimo]

Oh, multiple personalities now.

[Sean]

It's great.

[James Bernard]

Amazing comedian. Her name is Anna Akana. Right. She does. She's like so famous for doing both parts of the conversation. She talks about like studies and she plays like, you know, young hair versus older her or male her versus female her. And I Totally stole that. It's brilliant. It's a big trend now. Everybody does it. But when you can, like, have a conversation rather than just talk at the camera and explain something to someone in their face and, like, kind of boring them and lecturing at them, you can have that chat between yourself.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

And make it a bit of character. They take a lot of scripts right in. But they're so much fun, those videos, when you pull them off. Do you enjoy those? I really do. I do also like the ones where the old me comes in just to music and then comes up behind and puts his hand. You should see the behind the scenes of that when, like, I put my hand there and I put my own hand on top and then I move the mouse with my hand. It's really creepy. Yeah. But honestly, it's. They're so much fun. And they do really well, though, because they're having a chat and, like, listen to a conversation.

[Sean]

Yeah. Because those, to me are the more most informative.

[James Bernard]

I think in my presentation today, I'm going to showcase one of those. No, it's about, like, how there's so many ways to do the same thing in Adobe Illustrator.

[Sean]

Yeah. Which one do you do?

[James Bernard]

When do you pick the right tool? It's mental. And it's basically me having a conversation with herself, just arguing at the end. I go, love you. Love you. So it ends nicely.

[Sean]

So.

[Massimo]

So these videos, there's better ways to do it. Are you expecting people like us who've been doing this forever to do these, to make these changes? Or is this.

[James Bernard]

Is this.

[Massimo]

Ideally.

[James Bernard]

I have two audiences. Okay, well, three audiences. One's clients. Okay.

[Sean]

Yes.

[James Bernard]

Yeah, of course. First audience is young designers who are just up and coming and they're learning the tools for the first time. They like my content because it's very educational and, like, there's lots of tips and tricks in there to help you go faster.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

I get loads of messages from more, let's say seasoned designers who have been doing things a certain way for a long time. When I show them a new, like, bombshell tip or trick or a workflow that they might not have known about, their minds are blown. Yeah. And it's because, you know, when you do work a certain way for so long, it's hard to keep track of the new things that are coming out on the software. And there's so many updates all the time now.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Illustrator updates, like, once a month now.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

They're kind of relying on people like me to do that research for them.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

And. And you know, do the. Dig through the weeds of the new updates and go.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Check out how this might make you go faster.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Bernard]

They don't always have to take it on board, but the point is that there are people out there showing that you can do it.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

You just. You don't need to know all the tips and tricks in your software. You just need to know you can do it. Google it later.

[Sean]

Yes.

[James Bernard]

Because you know when you come to a point where you start working in with a client and suddenly you need to know how to apply in a half tone to an image.

[Sean]

Yep.

[James Bernard]

I know Illustrator can do that. I just don't remember how to do it right now.

[Sean]

Yes. Yeah, I'll be there for you.

[Massimo]

So you know what I do? I'll take those videos of yours, I will forward them to my email box and then I will title them what.

[Sean]

It is.

[James Bernard]

About this. And he's like, I save all your videos. Yeah, that's brilliant. I need to create like a repository and do like some sort of like Illustrator Pathfinder tricks and then put like all my videos into one thing and make like a library somehow. I don't know how to.

[Massimo]

You know. You could.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Because, I mean, again, I got a lot of James. I kind of look like I'm stalking.

[James Bernard]

Well, yeah, I kind of am stalking. That's a great way to get good, you know, to pump your videos up a little bit. If you do a tip like that and people save it, that's another great engagement thing that would. Videos do really well when they get lots of funny.

[Sean]

Because I watch those. I basically work in Illustrator 3.

[James Bernard]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

You know what I mean?

[James Bernard]

Like, I could go.

[Sean]

I could just. That's what I'm using.

[James Bernard]

But this.

[Sean]

It's like all these cool toys and stuff like that, that I had no idea what they do.

[James Bernard]

I mean, like, you don't have to use them, you just don't. But, like. But it's when they help you go faster.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Why would you not.

[Sean]

The Dr. Tool. We talked about this before. The. The Dr. Bilala, where you. You scanned his image.

[James Bernard]

Oh, the. Yeah.

[Sean]

And. And smoothed all that.

[James Bernard]

So that was this project I worked on for a surgeon and that was a really, like, clear brief. They just wanted a depiction of the guy's face. They had a logo of a, like, surgeon icon. Didn't scale very well. But this guy, his name is Dr. Stephen Batash. He's like a. Yeah, he does. He has. He has no hair.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

His glasses. His glasses. But at the same time, he's A surgeon. So they wanted him with the surgical cap on.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

And they just wanted a depiction of his face that scaled well. So that was when it was tiny. That the one that they were using wasn't so great. But I'm not an illustrator. I struggled with that one massively. And so what I did was go in and take. Take image trace grabs of his face at different thresholds.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

To get the different contours of his face. Different lightings.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

And then it kind of overlaid them on top of, you know, stuck them in Illustrator and locked them and then drew over with the pencil and then used the smooth tool to iron out the. The kinks and the stuff.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

It's such a cool workflow.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

So that, that was a great example of a case study. That's a case study.

[Sean]

Okay. Yeah.

[James Bernard]

But at the same time that turned out great clients.

[Sean]

Absolutely.

[James Bernard]

See, I can do that.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Right. And it's like again serving both audiences.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

And obviously there's there was more before that that, that image and then there was probably some follow up afterwards focused in just. So when you say case study, do you build the whole from beginning?

[James Bernard]

It depends how I want to frame the story. So that one was more framing it around the cool tip and trick. And there were. There were a couple of tips thrown in there. One about like how you can do like double panes in Illustrator. When one you can zoom in really and get granular details and have a second pane up on the right with a zoomed out zoom downs and those changes change lives. And the other one was like the Pathfinder tools. Sorry, the pencil tool and the smooth tools and how to use that workflow to create this kind of one color depiction of someone's face.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

And that story's kind of like evolved around that. Other case studies will be like, this job was not easy. We did five versions of this logo and that's the story. But we broke through the barrier and I have one. Do you remember the gold reserve buyer logo of mine where I got paid in the gold?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

I love that.

[James Bernard]

That was like a project that did not go well. It was like, I think I got to version 5 with that and that was the story. Do you know what I like there were problems here. Here's how I face those problems. Here's why that was my fault that that happened. I didn't like nail down the brief well enough with the client at the start and I didn't have those conversations before I started.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

It's cost me weeks in the Design phase. I could have solved that problem with a bit more chit chat and like better times. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was the, that was. It depends how you frame the, the, the story of that case study. But it is important that there's a story to tell. Otherwise it's like, look at this cool shit I did, man.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

And then no one gives a fuck. And they love flick. They'll flick away or they won't care what the logo is going to look like at the end. When you can frame it in a way that, you know, keeps people there. Those videos do really well.

[Massimo]

So you're talking about the importance of a story, flow of storytelling. How about not videos but in presenting in your logo, in there's a story, is a story equally important? Is it a different story?

[James Bernard]

You're talking about like order of your presentation and.

[Massimo]

Yeah, order how you're pitching it. Maybe even how you're presenting your logo. Yeah, not to the customer, not necessarily online, you know, on a video. Social video.

[James Bernard]

Yeah, yeah. So with the client specifically there is a, there's a great video by Ben Burns from the future on how to present a logo. It's such a cool resource, so 20 minutes long. He talks about the order of the deck, like that first presentation with the client and how to, how to present your logo. And I take bits and pieces from that and use it. And I was actually talking about this yesterday in my workshop here at Creative South. I was showing how to build custom mock ups in Photoshop.

[Massimo]

Right.

[James Bernard]

To, you know, rather than the off the shelf business card templates or the T shirts that you see everywhere, why not find a picture of your client online? Actually take a picture of them in a T shirt and put the logo on that. A little bit creepy because you got stocks and images off them or in discovery you ask for those images, like where's this logo going to be predominantly used in your business? Let's have a picture of that and let's see if the logo design stands up in that. Yeah, so that is a great way to get sign off faster. You're proving that you're solving that problem for them. They've got, they've got a clear place where this logo is going to be predominantly used. Might be on the side of a building, might be inside their office, it might be on their website. If you prove to them within that presentation early on that that logo is going to hold up in that format, really striking, then you kind of like you've already, you've already sold them on it. So there's there's a definite order. I start, I lead with that. So there's like the first logo. Ben Burns suggests logo mark on white, Strunk on white space around the log. Nothing else there. And then I do a mock up of the, where the logo is going to be predominantly used. So that might be external of a building and that's a mock up that I've made of an image from them. From them using my skills in Photoshop, baby. And then, and then it's about rationale.

[Sean]

Yep.

[James Bernard]

And then it's the suite of logos and then it's a series of mock ups in a certain order. Usually small format first.

[Sean]

So.

[James Bernard]

Badges, pen tops, favicons, really, really small formats. Proving that the logo works on a small scale. Then we go to large format side of a building, even T shirts, bit larger, you know, billboards, that kind of thing showing that this design is expandable and has scalable variations that work. So you basically just cover off all of the use cases for the design and prove that it stands up in all of those different formats and that really works us. That's cool.

[Massimo]

This is something I learned and again I, I, I questioned you this on the bus ride in. I'm like, why would I want to do that if I can just go online and, and use Illustrator and this and that. But it makes so much sense. Yeah, right.

[James Bernard]

Just to use takes a bit longer. I guess this would be an argument.

[Massimo]

But you know what, you're right. You, you have skipped so many steps. If they can now visualize it, hey look, that is our front lobby. And there it is. Hey, that is our delivery vehicle. And there, that's how it could look like, like it just makes so much more sense.

[James Bernard]

I've gotten pretty good at like getting my logo signed off quite quickly.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Partly was that it's due to that process that we talked about with Alan Peters. You know, the brand now process. That's fantastic. But it is, you know, I've learned over the years how to sell in the design and I do, you know, there's, there's so much argument about how to present to clients. Some people like to do that face to face or over a call and talk them through. I don't, I send them the design via PDF and I let them sit on it for a years of couple, couple of days before we have a chat. Because I found that like first of all, when you're staring at their reaction the first time, their feedback is never honest because you're watching like the whites of their eyes to See if they're like what you're presenting and if they don't, they're not going to be honest with you. They're going to feel uncomfortable and they need to, you know, digest it. Then that's the second part is that if they, if they email me back with changes within the first hour, that's big red flag. They need time to digest it. Change is jarring. They need to be able to sit on this for a little bit, maybe even show it with the people in their life, people closest to them and see what they think. Bit dangerous.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Someone's uncle who used his Photoshop might come out the woodwork and say, we need to change this and this and this.

[Massimo]

But then because wife might ask for a duck.

[James Bernard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, like we were talking about yesterday about how to defend your work. That's a big part of it. You know, prepare for those questions. You're going to ask why you've picked this color. Have an answer ready. Why have you chosen this typeface? You need to know what to say when they ask you because if you go, I don't know, cool, then they're going to question that choice and now they're doubting you and their subjective feedback starts coming and you know, now you're not like, you're not presenting in a way where you're able to kind of defend your decisions. You're just going to have to do what you're told from here on in. You're not, you're not the expert anymore.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Because they don't believe your choices because you can't defend them. That's nuts.

[Massimo]

All right, let's, let's end off with have you learned anything, inspired by anything, decided to do something new you since you've gotten here?

[James Bernard]

Yes, I have. Immediately. Now to respond to this question. Andrew Hocradel did his presentation yesterday about this project that he worked on with Southwest Airlines and he kind of bulldozed his way through there with them and got it, you know, in with them. That was kind of him just being kind of belligerent and like just pushing his way through. But at the end he gave some tips and tricks, just like general pieces of advice and it's really quick and I think a lot of people might have missed it. But he said offboarding is more important than onboarding.

[Massimo]

Interesting.

[James Bernard]

So when you finish up with a client, go that extra mile, send them something in the post or like maybe a little like gift or package or like a nice little wrap up or maybe like, you know, say you're a designer, why not get something printed with their logo on it and send it to their office. Go that extra mile with the off boarding. That's the last interaction you're going to have with them for a while.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Make sure it's a good one so that when the next time someone comes to them and they want to know who did their logo, you know, they'll remember that great experience at the end of the process with you. And I'm not good at that.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Bernard]

I am very guilty of getting bored with projects and you know, there's a lot of like, it's a lot of fun at the start and then gradually the client will wear me down. Usually that's how badly it's gone. And I'm usually at that point I'm like, just take your fucking logos and leave me alone and get the exports to them as fast as possible. And I'll say like, can I have a testimonial, please? And here's the second half of your invoice. So the last part of the interaction is say something nice about me and give me my money. Which is not a very nice.

[Massimo]

That's a great offer.

[James Bernard]

Not a very nice. Kind of like last wrap up to a conversation with a client. Clients. I think that's great advice. Like let's end on a great note here.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Bernard]

I don't know what I'm gonna do because a lot of my clients are abroad and it's a long way for me to send something. Maybe I'll get like on board with like a print on demand company and get their logo printed on. Yeah, yeah, that'd be a cool thing. That would be a little bit of merch or something with the new brand. Also that's kind of good because you're showing them how to use the logo so they don't break it and muck around with the designs later on.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah.

[Massimo]

A last ditch effect is how good it can.

[James Bernard]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Example artwork in the flame.

[Massimo]

Well, buddy, I. This was, you know, the highlight of this trip for me. Besides everything else was, you know, actually meeting Me too, guys.

[James Bernard]

Thanks for hanging out.

[Massimo]

Yeah, it's been great, man. Are you kidding?

[James Bernard]

It's like we've got one last night tonight, so.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Bernard]

And I've got to get up early tomorrow. We do. We've worked hard this weekend.

[Sean]

Yes, we have.

[James Bernard]

Yeah, that's cool, buddy. Thanks a lot, guys. Awesome.

[Massimo]

Great to see you so much, everybody.

[James Bernard]

Canada soon.

[Massimo]

Yeah, you just say whenever, man. Come work at our office.

[James Bernard]

We'll hook you up.

[Sean]

We'll.

[Massimo]

We'll get you all settled. Don't worry. You'll end up wanting to stay for.

[James Bernard]

A month, month and a half.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Massimo]

Guys, there's. There's so much to learn from this gentleman. You guys have to check out. You know, how do they find you.

[James Bernard]

Everywhere on socials at Barnard Co is where it's going. Barnard Co is my website. Check me out. Check him out, baby.

[Sean]

All right, everybody.

[Massimo]

I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Angry Designer podcast with Mr. James Bernard.

[James Bernard]

It's a good one.

[Massimo]

Oh, I kind of just. I just kind of spoiled it. So let's back it up a little bit. My name is Mossimo.

[Sean]

My name is Sean.

[Massimo]

And you are?

[James Bernard]

My name's James.

[Massimo]

Stay creative and stay angry.

[James Bernard]

Peace.