The WORST Graphic Design Advice Everyone Still Believes

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Angry Designer - "The WORST Graphic Design Advice Everyone Still Believes"

Episode Information:

• Podcast Title: The Angry Designer Graphic Design, Freelancing, Branding & Creative Business Podcast
• Host: Massimo and Sean
• Episode Title: The WORST Graphic Design Advice Everyone Still Believes
• Release Date: June 3, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Angry Designer, host Massimo and Sean delve into the pervasive and often misleading advice circulating within the graphic design community. Joined by a guest, they critically examine various "rules" and "sayings" that many designers are told to follow, highlighting why these pieces of advice can be detrimental to creative careers. The conversation is candid, infused with humor, and aims to empower designers to think critically and forge their own paths without falling prey to industry myths.

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1. "Charge What You're Worth"

Timestamp: [05:14]

• Discussion: The guest argues that the phrase "charge what you're worth" is overly simplistic and lacks actionable guidance. Worth is subjective and emotional, making it an ineffective pricing model.

• Notable Quote:
  Guest: “Your worth is really subjective and emotional, but you can't really use that as a pricing model.” ([05:32])

• Insights:

  • Pricing should be based on the value delivered, not just personal self-worth.
  • Factors like experience, expertise, and the specific value provided to clients should inform pricing strategies.

---

2. "Do What You Love and Money Will Follow"

Timestamp: [07:47]

• Discussion: While passion is crucial, relying solely on it without a solid business strategy can lead to financial instability.

• Notable Quote:
  Guest: “Passion alone doesn't pay the bills.” ([08:04])

• Insights:

  • Designers must balance passion with pragmatic business decisions.
  • Building a sustainable career requires strategic planning alongside doing what one loves.

---

3. "The Client Is Always Right"

Timestamp: [10:51]

• Discussion: This adage can be misleading as clients may lack the necessary design knowledge, leading to poor creative decisions.

• Notable Quote:
  Guest: “Although they are right in what they want, it's up to you to find their problems.” ([11:32])

• Insights:

  • Designers should act as consultants, guiding clients toward the best solutions even if it means challenging their initial requests.
  • Maintaining expertise and providing informed recommendations ensures better outcomes for both parties.

---

4. "Niche Fast"

Timestamp: [13:35]

• Discussion: Prematurely niching can limit growth and be detrimental if not aligned with the designer's expertise and passion.

• Notable Quote:
  Guest: “Premature niching can limit your growth. It could actually be catastrophic.” ([14:16])

• Insights:

  • Designers should explore various industries before committing to a niche.
  • Niching should occur when one is genuinely ready and has a deep understanding of the chosen sector.

---

5. "Good Design Sells Itself"

Timestamp: [15:03]

• Discussion: Good design requires strategic promotion and must align with business objectives to be effective.

• Notable Quote:
  Guest: “Good design has to be pushed. It has to have the right strategy behind it.” ([15:32])

• Insights:

  • Design should be part of a broader marketing and business strategy.
  • Without proper implementation, even the most aesthetically pleasing designs can fail to deliver results.

---

6. "Pay Your Dues"

Timestamp: [16:31]

• Discussion: "Paying your dues" is often misinterpreted as accepting toxic work environments or underpaying, which is not the intended message.

• Notable Quote:
  Guest: “Paying your dues means experiencing a variety of work, not enduring abuse or exploitation.” ([17:16])

• Insights:

  • Gaining diverse experiences is valuable, but not at the expense of personal well-being or fair compensation.
  • Setting boundaries is essential to prevent exploitation while building a robust portfolio.

---

7. "Graphic Designers Need a Degree to Be Legit"

Timestamp: [22:15]

• Discussion: The necessity of formal education is questioned, especially when many successful designers are self-taught or have bypassed traditional degrees.

• Notable Quote:
  Guest: “True design education comes after post-secondary education. Many skip this and succeed through passion and curiosity.” ([23:11])

• Insights:

  • Practical skills and a strong portfolio often outweigh formal credentials.
  • Continuous self-education through online resources can be as effective as traditional schooling.

---

8. "Always Give Three Logo Options or Always Only Present One Logo Option"

Timestamp: [24:29]

• Discussion: There is no one-size-fits-all approach to presenting logo options. The emphasis should be on the process and reasoning behind the designs rather than the number of options.

• Notable Quote:
  Guest: “The number of concepts really doesn't matter. It's the process and conviction behind them that counts.” ([25:11])

• Insights:

  • Flexibility in approach is key; what matters most is effectively communicating and justifying the design choices.
  • Both presenting multiple options or a single, well-thought-out option can be effective depending on the context.

---

9. "Never Say No to Work"

Timestamp: [27:02]

• Discussion: Constantly accepting work without discernment leads to burnout and diminishes quality. It's important to decline projects that do not align with one's values or business goals.

• Notable Quote:
  Guest: “If you're not making money on this, then you should be working on your own stuff, not customer work that doesn't lead to anything.” ([28:02])

• Insights:

  • Selective acceptance of projects ensures better focus and sustainability.
  • Prioritizing aligned work supports long-term business success and personal satisfaction.

---

10. "Always Make the Client Happy"

Timestamp: [29:11]

• Discussion: Focusing solely on pleasing clients can lead to compromising on design integrity. Instead, the goal should be to solve the client's problems effectively.

• Notable Quote:
  Guest: “Pleasing clients is different from solving their problems. Focus on delivering the right results, not just their approval.” ([30:05])

• Insights:

  • Delivering value and effective solutions should take precedence over merely seeking client approval.
  • Building long-term relationships hinges on trust and successful outcomes rather than constant appeasement.

---

11. "Fake It Until You Make It"

Timestamp: [31:27]

• Discussion: This phrase is often misconstrued as deceitful, but it should instead be about building confidence and competence over time.

• Notable Quote:
  Guest: “It's about taking the confidence you have in what you can do, not faking your abilities.” ([32:15])

• Insights:

  • Use confidence to take on challenges and grow skills, not to misrepresent capabilities.
  • Gradual skill acquisition and genuine improvement lead to authenticity and success.

---

12. "Clients Want Award-Winning Designers"

Timestamp: [34:18]

• Discussion: Many design awards don’t reflect practical client needs and can sometimes represent superficial achievements rather than meaningful work.

• Notable Quote:
  Guest: “Most design awards aren't for client work and can be more about ego than delivering client value.” ([35:11])

• Insights:

  • Focus on delivering tangible results for clients rather than seeking accolades.
  • Awards should complement, not define, the quality and effectiveness of client work.

---

13. "Price Yourself Competitively"

Timestamp: [36:38]

• Discussion: Competing solely on price leads to a race to the bottom and undervaluing one’s services.

• Notable Quote:
  Guest: “Pricing yourself competitively against peers is the quickest way to race to the bottom.” ([36:50])

• Insights:

  • Set prices based on the unique value and expertise offered.
  • Differentiation through specialization and quality justifies higher pricing without direct competition on cost.

---

14. "Join Professional Design Organizations (e.g., RGD, AIGA, GDC)"

Timestamp: [47:32]

• Discussion: Membership in professional organizations is often overstated as a career booster, while actual benefits may be limited.

• Notable Quote:
  Guest: “Joining these organizations is a cash grab and offers resources that are readily available online for free.” ([47:56])

• Insights:

  • Evaluate the genuine benefits and ROI of joining such organizations.
  • Networking and resources can often be accessed through alternative, cost-effective means.

---

15. "If You're Good, You Don't Need to Market Yourself"

Timestamp: [50:21]

• Discussion: Talent alone isn't sufficient to secure clients; active marketing and self-promotion are essential.

• Notable Quote:
  Guest: “Being good just isn't enough. You’ve got to show up, speak up, network, and put yourself out there regularly.” ([51:18])

• Insights:

  • Consistent marketing efforts are crucial for visibility and attracting clients.
  • Building a personal brand and engaging with the community enhances career opportunities.

---

16. "Design is Storytelling"

Timestamp: [52:21]

• Discussion: While design involves elements of storytelling, reducing it to this single aspect oversimplifies the multifaceted nature of design work.

• Notable Quote:
  Guest: “These are fancy poetic one-liners that can confuse people. Design is about solving a customer's problem with intent.” ([52:32])

• Insights:

  • Design integrates various elements such as communication, empathy, and problem-solving.
  • Clear, actionable explanations of design processes and objectives are more effective than vague descriptions.

---

Conclusion

Throughout the episode, Massimo, Sean, and their guest emphasize the importance of critical thinking in evaluating industry advice. They advocate for personalized approaches tailored to individual skills, experiences, and business goals rather than adhering to generic, often misleading sayings. By challenging conventional wisdom and encouraging designers to forge their own paths, the episode serves as a valuable guide for both novice and experienced graphic designers seeking to build sustainable and fulfilling careers.

Final Notable Quotes:

• Guest: “Embrace critical thinking. Don’t take anything you see online as verbatim.” ([54:02])
• Massimo: “If you could back up the story and why you did what you did—Boom.” ([26:41])

Closing Remarks: The episode wraps up with Massimo and Sean reinforcing the need for designers to stay informed, think independently, and continuously adapt to the evolving creative landscape. They conclude on a light-hearted note, reflecting on the ongoing whiskey degustation, underscoring their no-nonsense and authentic approach to tackling industry myths.

---

Stay Connected:

• Hosts: Massimo and Sean encourage listeners to stay creative yet critical, emphasizing the podcast’s mission to cut through industry bull and empower designers to build rewarding careers.

End of Summary

Transcript

[Massimo]

Foreign.

[Sean]

You're listening to the Angry Designer podcast, where we help frustrated graphic designers crush the industry.

[Massimo]

Bull.

[Sean]

And share what it takes to charge what you're worth and build badass, rewarding careers.

[Guest]

There is something I hate more than shitty whiskey.

[Massimo]

It's doing it again.

[Guest]

It's. It's wasting.

[Massimo]

Well, I was just gonna say I.

[Guest]

Hate wastage even more. Yes, and yes. We had a horrible experience with this. Taws Canadian Whis.

[Massimo]

Maybe it's aged better since last week in the week.

[Guest]

I just. I can't. I can't give it to anybody at the office.

[Massimo]

Yeah, I know.

[Guest]

Wanted it.

[Massimo]

You offered it to me and I was like, no, I'm not taking that home.

[Guest]

And. Yeah, and. And nobody else wanted it. So I guess we're gonna try another go this week and. Yeah, hold on. I feel bad here.

[Massimo]

I gotta give myself. Do you have a neighbor that you don't like? Just give that to you in case there's anything. Oh, why would you do that?

[Guest]

All right, let's see if week two of.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Guest]

Ha's whiskey. Canadian whiskey in pinot barrels.

[Massimo]

Pinot barrels.

[Guest]

So this is whiskey that is aged in wine barrels.

[Massimo]

Salute.

[Guest]

Oh, God, that smell makes me want to puke.

[Massimo]

God, it's so sweet.

[Guest]

Oh. Oh. Oh, God. I don't like this. I may have to bite the bullet and just dump it. I don't know if I could do it after this week.

[Massimo]

Wow.

[Guest]

I don't think this actually is officially the worst whiskey in our whole whiskey journey.

[Massimo]

What about that Indian stuff?

[Guest]

No, I love the Indian.

[Massimo]

Okay. Yeah, that was pretty good. That first taste was terrible, though.

[Guest]

The first taste tastes like soap, but.

[Massimo]

The rest of it, but then it.

[Guest]

Kind of oddly, it's something they. They did some voodoo magic. But this is just brutal.

[Massimo]

I know. You know, it doesn't get any better. Like you figure. The first step is kind of rocky, but yeah, it just gets worse and it's like.

[Guest]

Okay, so ready? So. So how about this is a segue.

[Massimo]

Okay.

[Guest]

So I mean, again, it looks good on the shelf. You know, the color looks good and intent as well. Okay. But the reality is it's. There's nothing good about this. And. And that is the same as a lot of this stuff that we're going to be talking about today. I mean, you know, I think figured we'd. We'd back this up a little bit. We've had some heavy episodes the past little while.

[Massimo]

Yes, that's true.

[Guest]

So, you know, I thought we'd go something a little lighter and just there's always all these sayings out there that. That we hear as graphic designers. Right. And we always hear this. Whether there are influencers who are. Whether they're professionals, whether they're in articles, whether they're buzzwords. Everybody keeps hearing the same shit. And maybe they mean well, but, you know, I. In oftentimes, you know, they're actually. Well, they're misleading. There's no question. Right?

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Guest]

They can be harmful depending on what part of the career you're at. And, you know, and this is a big part why we exist is. Is to kind of like, you know, dispel a lot of the bullshit in the industry.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

Okay.

[Massimo]

And so today, there's some doozies on this list here, too.

[Guest]

And again, so today, what we're doing is. Is, you know, I kind of, you know, I had this list of, like, 30, 40 sayings that I just been acquiring. Inquiring, inquiring. And a lot of these, you know, a lot of these, you know, we might do as a part two, because a lot of these are like mantras, and they're a lot more. They're deeper, and you're supposed to read them, and we're going to end on one of them here. But, you know, these are sayings that we always hear that. That sound like they're motivational, and they sound like, yo, you need to be doing this. You. It just, like, it often leaves you scratching your head, being like, well, okay, what do I do with it? But that's not often the case because, I mean, designers, depending on where you are, will just nod and go with it.

[Massimo]

Exactly.

[Guest]

Will try to interpret it or try.

[Massimo]

To figure it out, or worse yet, figure it out and go the wrong.

[Guest]

Way and do the wrong thing.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Guest]

Oh, that's the worst, honestly.

[Massimo]

And.

[Guest]

And so that's why I'm. We're here to call bullshit in some of these today. Right. Because, again, it's like there's. There's so much information out there that is only, you know, dribbled out to you.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

Okay. And again, we. I just did a whole episode on pricing just based on this. Right. Nobody's giving you the full picture, the context. And again, it could be more harmful than good. So that's what we're going to do today. We're going to. We're going to talk about this. All right?

[Massimo]

Yeah. We're going to be guiding today.

[Guest]

And I'm sorry for you guys who are listening to us. If you hear me gagging, it's because I took a sip of this horrible Whiskey.

[Massimo]

Man. We got to do it like we did. They do a madman and just chip. Just jam it back. Sure.

[Guest]

It's good stuff on madman. This is just.

[Massimo]

Oh, telling you some ice cubes would work.

[Guest]

If I take a gulp, it at least all I taste is this. This barrel.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Guest]

Wood.

[Massimo]

Yeah, that's what it is.

[Guest]

And it doesn't even taste like the sweetness is the pinot.

[Massimo]

Is that what it is that what it is?

[Guest]

For sure it is. It's got to be the wine. You can really taste that.

[Massimo]

Oh, that's what it is.

[Guest]

It's just weird. And I mean, sometimes, you know, white.

[Massimo]

Or is it red?

[Guest]

No, I think pinot gris. I mean, it's deep, isn't it?

[Massimo]

Is it?

[Guest]

Isn't it like a Merlot? I thought.

[Massimo]

Oh, is it okay?

[Guest]

No, maybe not quite as hot, but.

[Massimo]

There is a lot of sugar in wine.

[Guest]

Yes, there is.

[Massimo]

So. Okay.

[Guest]

Yeah, that could explain this.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Guest]

All right. Okay. So common, mis. Common misleading or harmful sayings that, you know, graphic designers young and old hear from everybody online. All right, all right. So, number one, you always hear charge what you're worth. And, you know, in hindsight, it's just.

[Massimo]

Like, I'm worth a million bucks.

[Guest]

Right? Well, it's kind of misleading because, you know, your worth is really subjective and emotional, but it's. You can't really use that as a pricing model.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

Okay. It's not to say you have to, you know, feel. Feel bad about yourself or anything else, but just. It's a very high level blanket statement.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

That, you know, doesn't really give you anything concrete to move towards. Right, Right where I mean, I mean, really, when you look at yourself, when you look at what you should be charging, there's so much to the charging thing. Right? But you. You got to charge based on the value that you deliver you. There's so many more valuables other than charging what you're worth.

[Massimo]

Exactly. Your experience comes in on that.

[Guest]

Absolutely, it does.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

And again, maybe worth needs to be extrapolated into what it actually is. What do they mean by charge what you're worth? But a lot of people are like, don't undersell yourself. Charge what you're worth.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Guest]

You know, and it's like, yeah, that sounds nice in hindsight, but the thing is, it is so paper thin. Right. It's just. I don't know, dude. You know, it's like, you know, you need to. There's so many more factors than just leaving at a high level of just charging what you're Worth.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Guest]

And I mean, I feel a little bit guilty because, you know, in our tagline, we say, you know, help graphic designers, you know, charge what they're worth and, you know, get rewarding careers. We do absolutely say that, you know, in the bigger picture of things. But even that, now that I'm, you know, kind of going through this, I think I have to change because, again, it's just.

[Massimo]

Well, but I think the whole point of the podcast is we do explain how to determine what you're worth by your experiences in your, you know, your abilities and things like that.

[Guest]

Yeah. But your worth is not justification on or a model that you can use to price your service.

[Massimo]

This is true.

[Guest]

Okay.

[Massimo]

There's no chart for that. Right.

[Guest]

There's a. Here's the worth chart. All right.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Guest]

Number two, here's. Here's one that, you know, and. And this one, I love to say. Okay. And I have said it to people, but again, at the same time, it's. It's. It's horrible to say, and I apologize to anybody. I did. But just do what you love and money will fall.

[Massimo]

Oh, yeah, Right.

[Guest]

And I've said this even to my daughter, you know, when it comes to making choices, making, you know, planning out her future, because she. She kind of gears it, oh, I want to do this, but it's not. Doesn't make you a lot of money. Right. You know, the reality is passion alone doesn't pay the bills.

[Massimo]

That's true.

[Guest]

And that's the absolute truth. If you break down that term, okay, do what you love and money will follow. And that's not necessarily what it means. It doesn't mean that if you end up being a starving artist, that's okay. You know, somebody at some point in your lifetime is going to discover you, you know, a starving art. You know, hey, it's okay if you, you know, you're a graphic designer in a really shitty niche, as long as it's a, you know, nonprofit graphic. Does graphic designers who work in nonprofit industries often fall victim of this? They do this for the right reasons.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Guest]

But after 20 years.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

They're still not making any money.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Guest]

And there's a reason for it.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

You have to actually, you can do what you love. Okay. But the reality is you have to also use your judgment and align your services, your skills, your industry. Align everything. Everything, you know, in order to actually get paid.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

So it's a little paper thin. And when I would tell my daughter this. Right. It kind of fell in line with even what we did Here. Right. I loved graphic design. And. And at the beginning, I had no idea how to make money out of this space. Okay. But I loved it enough that I was willing to go the distance and over time would figure out how to actually make money out.

[Massimo]

There you go.

[Guest]

And that's. So that's the long term plan. But nobody ever says that, right? Nobody says, do what you love and money will follow because you're going to find a way on how to actually make money and still do. You never hear that part.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

So it always sounds very romantic.

[Massimo]

It does, yes.

[Guest]

Right. But the reality is don't fool yourself.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

You still have to make yourself a plan. You still have to get there.

[Massimo]

That's it.

[Guest]

And find it.

[Massimo]

But that passion helps that along.

[Guest]

The passion allows you to enjoy that journey.

[Massimo]

You love what you do. Yeah. You love it so much that you're willing to figure out a way to transverse that business aspect of it or whatever it is that you need to push that so you can actually make a living off of what you.

[Guest]

Because again, just. Just you know what you love. Somewhere along the way, I had to figure out how to start paying for things that I wanted.

[Massimo]

Exactly.

[Guest]

Okay. And just doing graphic design at a discount was it enough?

[Massimo]

Wasn't doing it wasn't good.

[Guest]

So I figured out how to do what I love and still make a living out of it. That goes for art, you know, that goes for designers of all sorts. That goes for almost anybody who follows some sort of passion led career. Okay. So it's not a matter of, you know, do it blindly and then money will magically fall from the sky for you.

[Massimo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Guest]

But it's like if you genuinely love what you do, then, you know, you keep doing it. And sooner or later you'll figure out a way to monetize it into a place where then you will have both, you know, you'll be successful personally.

[Massimo]

Yep.

[Guest]

And professionally.

[Massimo]

Yes. Yeah.

[Guest]

All right.

[Massimo]

That's awesome.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

I love it.

[Guest]

Okay.

[Massimo]

You're making short work of that.

[Guest]

Yeah. Right. Well, I figured if I drink it enough, if I have a second glass fast enough, then maybe it might be fine. All right. Number three. Okay. Everybody's heard this one. The client is always right. Okay. And I mean, on so many levels. We know that this is a misleading statement. Okay. Because the client often lacks the design knowledge they're coming to you for. And so because of that, going to make poor creative decisions. Okay. So although they are right in what they want. Okay. It's up to you to find their problems.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

Not just deliver the solution they're asking to. Right. We talked about the bridge.

[Massimo]

The bridge.

[Guest]

I was just thinking going back to the bridge concept. The reality is, right, they're coming to you for a reason. So they're Right, Sure. And, you know, yeah, they're paying the bill, sure. But they're coming to you for a reason, given that it is the right client.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

Okay. So the reality is they're right halfway, but they're right in hiring you to find the right problem.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Guest]

Not just be a yes man and give or yes woman and give them their solution. That's not what this is about.

[Massimo]

No. You could totally build that bridge if you want.

[Guest]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Massimo]

But that's. That you're not doing your client or yourself any favors.

[Guest]

Guess what?

[Massimo]

By doing that.

[Guest]

Right.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

My strength is helping you find a better way to do this. You told me what the problem is. Here's a different way of approaching your problem with a better solution. Would you like to go with it?

[Massimo]

That's right.

[Guest]

And in that case, you know, the client is not going to balk at that. Right. So. So again, this is where you have to position yourself, of course, as the expert. But just know that the client is, in fact, not always. Right.

[Massimo]

That's right. Exactly. All right, Nice.

[Guest]

A lot of people online always tell graphic designers they need to niche immediately.

[Massimo]

Right away.

[Guest]

Niche fast. Niche fast.

[Massimo]

Shit.

[Guest]

So this is misleading because again, big time, I am a huge fan of niching. I will tell every graphic designer, you have to niche. Yeah, but you have to niche when.

[Massimo]

The time is, when you're ready for it. How long did it take you?

[Guest]

Right. Again, we didn't niche.

[Massimo]

We.

[Guest]

Okay. Truth be told, we niched initially. Okay. And we didn't realize it. Right. We didn't realize the benefit of it. We didn't realize the benefit of it. Then we became a generalist agency. Okay. And everything started falling apart. Everything was difficult. There was a lot of struggles. And then it was like, you know what? We gotta go back to a niche.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

When we did, it was just so apparent, the difference between being generalists and. And being a niche agency.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

We're still a full service agency. We're still generalists in the sense of. Can do everything from trade show work to web to brand strategy. But we are in a niche strategy or nice industries. So premature. Niching can limit your growth. It could actually be catastrophic. Okay. To your career, to your reputation, because you have to make sure that you've got all your ducks in order before you do anything like this. You need to explore all the industries that you know. Well, if you're going to niche from an industry perspective. Right. The industries that you can excel at and why you can excel. You don't want to just commit to an industry because it's lucrative and be miserable every day.

[Massimo]

Exactly.

[Guest]

There's so many levels, so I 100% support niching. But you have to first make sure that you understand the industry, you know, being a designer, what it entails. Because you got all, you know, you can get everything you need to get done. Right.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

And then you can start, right. Find the areas that excite you that you then can niche in. And then when you're ready to do that, you will excel. Exactly.

[Massimo]

Through the roof. Through the roof, right, exactly. So some people can kind of take a little bit of time to get to the, to the, the niche that they want, Right?

[Guest]

Absolutely.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

And I, I tell everybody the same thing. Right. Niching is, it's, it's not a, like a way in.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

It's like a direction, it's a goal. It's your next what to work towards.

[Massimo]

Right. It's kind of along the path that you're going to.

[Guest]

Yes, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So again, yes, niche. But you don't have to niche right away, immediately. Okay. So number five, good design sells itself. This is such a load of shit. Okay. Nobody buys what they don't understand. And again, it's like, you know, good design doesn't sell itself. Okay. Good design. Good design has to be pushed. It has to have the right strategy behind it, has to have the right messaging to it. Right. There's so many more parts to it than just the, the design itself.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

And this is why. This is a really paper thin statement that kind of drives me nuts, to be honest, when people hear. Because there's such an elitist attitude about creating something that looks like it's a beautiful design.

[Massimo]

Perfect. Yes.

[Guest]

But if it doesn't have all the other factors in place, if it doesn't have the right call to actions in place, if, if it hasn't solved the problem, what the customer wants.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

And it's just, it's, it's flat, it's fake, it's, it's, it's all pretty and no substance to it.

[Massimo]

Exactly. Yes. It has to work.

[Guest]

Absolutely. You have to educate everybody. You've got to position, you know, your client properly and then you got to pitch that, you know, to the customer in the end. Right. These are really important factors that the design has to have in place. But something can look fantastic, but could be completely worthless enough. Useless. That's the better word.

[Massimo]

Yeah, exactly.

[Guest]

All right, this one, we say a lot and you know, we should catch ourselves in this one or at least explain. Okay? But you will often hear people say, you have to pay your dues. Okay? And again, generally we say it in a bigger statement. We back it up. We make sure we, you know, explain this out and pull this out. But, you know, you people often, you know, use this whole, use this term, this phrase, you know, to justify their inexperience or the fact that they can undercharge, okay. And they have to kind of slug it out, you know, and they almost use it an excuse to, to be overworked and to be treated like right in an environment. And that's not what you have to pay your dues is about.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

It doesn't mean that you have to work under a, you know, a toxic boss or a creative director who steals your ideas. Right. Or get paid, you know, pennies on the, on the hour, every hour. Basically be working for free. You know, that's not what paying your dues means. Right. You don't earn any value by suffering and hating what it is you do. Okay. Unless, of course, you know, you have completely, you know, the wrong impression of what the space is that you get. Don't expect to almost and become a creative director with only a year experience.

[Massimo]

Exactly.

[Guest]

Like, you know, you need to know where you have to suck it up.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Okay. But you also need to know where the line is and where to draw it. Okay? So again, this isn't about. It's okay to be abused. This isn't about. It's okay to be overworked, be driven to burnout and learn to hate the industry. That's not what this is about.

[Massimo]

That's right.

[Guest]

This is about, you know, there will be long hours, there will be boring jobs that you're going to have to go to. Okay, Go through. You are going to have to learn a lot of really boring pre press stuff or, or just, you know, digital baseline stuff. There's going to be a lot of boring production work that you're probably going to have to do.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

But you don't have to do it underneath some sort of slave organization where they're over top of you and making you stay, or stay late and work for pennies. This is where you need to know, you know, at what point is it, is this expected and where that line is that, you know, you don't want anything to cross.

[Massimo]

Exactly.

[Guest]

Horrible way to finish that Off.

[Massimo]

That is terrible. Yeah. And you don't want to be that guy that's been sitting in a. At a place for 20 years going, what have I done with my life?

[Guest]

Exactly. Right.

[Massimo]

Get out there and experience other things. That's what paying your dues is. If you got a job jump, then you have to do that.

[Guest]

Right, Exactly.

[Massimo]

That's exactly what you need to do. You have to experience other things.

[Guest]

Exactly what the other. Yep.

[Massimo]

Yes. That's your path. Yeah. That's good. That's. That's. That is. I. I. Paying your dues is. I see what. That. I see what you're saying with that. We do say that a lot, and it is a kind of a, you know.

[Guest]

Well, we say it when people complain.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

About, you know, the facts of the industry that are legit. And let's face it, you know, we all work a lot of hours.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Guest]

Okay. And again, it comes with the space. You know, we've all had, you know, clients that are ridiculous that. With the space. Okay. But things we don't have to tolerate is toxic environments. That's wrong. Okay. And you don't want to have to accept that or, you know, again or. Or horrible management. Okay. That. That, you know, abuses, you know, you. Or takes advantage of you, you know, so this is where it's like, that actually does not fall into the pay you do category. That's. That's where, you know, you start being taken advantage of, you know, and as soon as it becomes a little bit more toxic than it should.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

You know, because, I mean, again, you know, sometimes, you know, you hear or you overhear. Toxic. Okay. But again, just because you don't agree with it doesn't necessarily mean it's toxic.

[Massimo]

True. Yeah.

[Guest]

Okay. In all fairness. But that's where you have to know where to draw the line, right? Yeah. And now a word from our sponsor.

[Sean]

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[Guest]

Okay. Number seven.

[Massimo]

Okay.

[Guest]

Graphic designers need a degree to be legit.

[Massimo]

I'm thinking, I'm thinking of that phone call we had in the back of the, the Uber with, with the woman and the kid who was.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Massimo]

Their son was already working.

[Guest]

He's already got a full time customer.

[Massimo]

He's pull him out of school and you're gonna make him pull him out of life, out of his job and make him go to school? No, no, this, Hell no.

[Guest]

A real elitism, big time talent, big time that you need to be, you know, you need to go to school, you need to have a degree in order to be, you know, considered a graphic designer. A successful graphic designer. You know, in all fairness right now I don't think school's keeping up with the pace of the industry and it's a little disappointing. Yeah, I mean it's, they're not teaching how to handle AI right now. They're not teaching how to, you know, handle even just the pace of social media right now. They're still often teaching design principles in a lot of the shit. They're not even teaching how to properly pitch your portfolio, which we learned okay.

[Massimo]

A couple of weeks ago.

[Guest]

So again, this is, this is a horrible thing to believe. You know, results, consistency, creative problem solving. This is shit that means more than credentials. Okay. And that's why it's like people need to, you know, shake their head when they hear statements like this. It's not that, I'm not saying education is bad. You know, you can take online courses on the principles of design, you can understand the foundations, you know, you can understand. But there's so many holes that are missing. And true design education comes after post secondary education. Yeah, that's, that's only an option if you ask me. Okay. There's so many designers that complete completely skip that. They're, they're Passion led. They learn because they want to. And they are equally successful, if not more, because of their genuine curiosity and you know, what they feel towards design in the industry, not because their Prof. Told them they can do it a good job. And you've got a B plus.

[Massimo]

Yeah. And the thing with that, like, you can learn so much online nowadays.

[Guest]

Oh, my God.

[Massimo]

Like, it's ridiculous. Anything way more than what your professor is going to teach you. Yes. You know, Absolutely. At a fraction of the price. At a fraction of the price.

[Guest]

God knows you're going to save a ton on that one.

[Massimo]

Yes, you are.

[Guest]

All right, so that's number seven.

[Massimo]

Nice.

[Guest]

Number eight. Okay. Always give three logo options or always only present one logo option.

[Massimo]

Wait, what do I do?

[Guest]

You see where I'm going with this? See where I'm going with this?

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Guest]

So again, you know, this is something that you guys have to kind of use critical thinking for. You are going to have different opinions out there. Okay. Some people are saying only pitch one concept. Only do one. You know, Alan Peters pitches to the greats.

[Massimo]

To the goats. Yes.

[Guest]

Okay.

[Massimo]

He pitches 12. And what does.

[Guest]

What does James Bernard pitches one.

[Massimo]

One.

[Guest]

Okay. And again, it's great conversation we had with both of them.

[Massimo]

Both of both amazing approaches and. Yeah, yeah. So who's right and who's wrong?

[Guest]

The number of concepts really doesn't matter. It's the process you use to get to that point and the conviction and the reasoning you have when you're presenting that to the customer. So there is no right or wrong method to go about this. Okay. There's just a different way to go about this. And I learned that I used to think that James was crazy. I did. Until we spoke with him. And again. And I was like, okay, I totally get where you're coming from with your single concept. And. And I. I agree with it for him. Okay. And then about a minute later, I heard Alan's reasoning for his concept. I can't argue with that.

[Massimo]

No.

[Guest]

We personally have a completely different concept than both of theirs together. And again, to say somebody's right or wrong is ridiculous.

[Massimo]

Is dumb.

[Guest]

Okay. It's just their process works for them. And it works. You know, it works if you can replicate it time and time and time again.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

So don't get hung up on an easy answer on, you know, oh, we can only do one. Strive for only one, or strive for 12 or. Or strive to make it an iterative process. Right. No, no, no, no. Make sure, you know, the process you have supports your process. Right. Or Sorry. The. The pitch you decide to do supports your process.

[Massimo]

Right?

[Guest]

Okay. And. And you can do it confidently, with conviction and speak out, and you can do it over and over and over again. And if it works for you, that's the real answer.

[Massimo]

And you can. Yeah. And back up what you're doing too.

[Guest]

Right.

[Massimo]

If you could be. If you could back up the story and why you did what you did, Boom.

[Guest]

Yeah, go.

[Massimo]

This is good. Not. I just did this because it looks cool.

[Guest]

Because it looks good.

[Massimo]

Forget it.

[Guest]

Right. Nobody wants to hear your personal opinion. Okay. In all fairness. All right, all right. Number nine.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Never say no to work.

[Massimo]

Oh, Jesus.

[Guest]

Right? So I, I grew up in a very hardcore Italian family, right. My father was the hardest worker I've ever met in my. And only second to my mom, who's the second hardest worker and probably more considering she had to raise three boys.

[Massimo]

Okay, that's right.

[Guest]

Where I'm going with this is, you know, it's an old mentality that you can't say no to work, but the reality is if you just work for the sake of working, okay. And it's not profitable, okay. Overwork leads to burnout. If you're not making money on this, okay. Then you should be working on, on your own stuff, not customer work that doesn't actually lead to anything. Okay. Because there is a long term goal. Okay. You need to say yes to aligned work. Okay. And what I mean by this is if it aligns with, you know, who you are as a company, your beliefs, your profit model, they're willing to pay yours, then you're crazy to say no to it.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Okay, then you're absolutely crazy, even if you're busy. Right? But you find somebody if somebody wants something at a discount count. If somebody wants, you know, something, you know, at half the time of your normal rate, if somebody wants to come in and create chaos in your environment, that's the work you gotta say no to.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Okay, so again, it's you. We just have to be clear with this statement, right? You should say yes to all the ideal work that's coming down the door.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

But there's definitely a place to say no to anything that disrupts what you've got going really good.

[Massimo]

Exactly. Yes. This is true. Yeah. You, you, you can. Could really yourself up by doing that, you know, with like, like being stressed on top of having too many projects on the.

[Guest]

Absolutely.

[Massimo]

You know what I mean? Like, if they were flowing good and the clients are great, maybe juggling two or three projects might not be so bad. But right. If you got three nightmares.

[Guest]

Yeah. You can't go down these roads.

[Massimo]

You can't. You cannot do this. This is. This is not good.

[Guest]

All right, number 10. Okay. Always make the client happy.

[Massimo]

Interesting.

[Guest]

It's a scary statement, right?

[Massimo]

Yeah. I would like to hear the reasoning behind it.

[Guest]

Well, again, pleasing clients is actually different than solving clients problems. And there is a differentiator that people need to understand. Okay. What you need to do is you need to focus on. On the deliverable. Okay. On the problem you're trying to solve, how you're trying to improve. You know, you need to focus on that, not focus on their approval. Right. And I think that that's. That's the misleading part about this. Okay. Like, making a client happy doesn't. There's been clients that we've made happy, even though there's been personality conflict. Okay. Maybe they haven't liked, you know, certain. Certain ways of the process or maybe even certain people that they're working with. The reality is they were happy with the final result, and that should goal.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

And that's how you make the client happy.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

There you go.

[Massimo]

Did it work?

[Guest]

Absolutely. Right. So again, yes, always make the client happy. But this isn't about trying to win over their approval.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

Okay.

[Massimo]

Okay.

[Guest]

This is make sure what you're delivering is always delivering the right result to the customer.

[Massimo]

Right. And not being a yes person too. Right. Like you're not just say, sure thing, boss. Whatever you asked for, you're not doing yourself. You're not doing them any favors either.

[Guest]

Dude. We just found out some news today about a client that necessarily didn't like me. Okay. And I. At first, I tried to get their approval. I tried to win over that person, and it was killing me because I just couldn't get them to like me. Absolutely. I mean. I mean, there's one in the world.

[Massimo]

Of course, but it's true.

[Guest]

This guy, I couldn't get him to like me, and instead I changed my attention to servicing the hell out of the company.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

And that company stuck with us. You know, again, It's. It's been 10 years. Okay. And again, it's because I ended up focusing on the right outcome.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

Not necessarily the approval of the person.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

So I focus on the client, not the person.

[Massimo]

Yeah, there you go. That's good.

[Guest]

That's kind of crazy, right? All right, I love it. Here's one that everybody's heard. Okay. Fake it until you make it.

[Massimo]

Ooh, dangerous.

[Guest]

This is a touchy one.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Everybody has heard this. And this Is a really scary statement because again, what people don't get, you know, this is often confused with lying, faking it. Okay. You know, overselling, pretending you have skills that you actually don't have. That's not really what this statement is about. But nobody ever backs that up. They throw it out there. Like, fake it till you make it, baby. You know, the fake it till you make it statement, okay. Is about the confidence that you have. Right. Pretend that you know you, you are the biggest guy in that room. Pretend that you. I don't want to get too nasty, but there's a lot of really big gross analogies. Okay. That, you know, that can work here. Okay.

[Massimo]

But the reality is you want to.

[Guest]

Take the confidence you have in what you can do. Not necessarily the craft.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

Okay. Not necessarily the hands on doing portion. Okay. That if you say you can do a job, you better be able to do that job.

[Massimo]

Exactly.

[Guest]

Because the quickest way to kill your career is to have people realize that. Holy. He says he can do it and he dropped the ball on it. Oh, really? He said he could do it to me too, and he dropped. Almost done. Career kill.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Okay. But if you're like, I'm not sure if I can do it, but I'm not going to let the customer know. I'm going to tell them I can do it. You put in extra hours behind, you know, behind the curtain. You spend an extra night or the weekend getting, getting over this improve. You can. That's what this is about. So faking it until you actually can get to that point of doing it and then all of a sudden you're not faking it. You've arrived, you're legit at this point. Yeah, that's what this is out. So this is more, this statement is more about, you know, faking that you can do it until you figure. Until you actually figure out how to do it.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

And then once you figure out how to do it, you're faster, you're growing, you're quicker, but you're not losing work in the meantime.

[Massimo]

Exactly. It's just another. Another tool in your belt.

[Guest]

Right. And that's kind of where a whole idea about, you know, tell customers, hey, it's Friday. I don't know how to do it, but by Monday it sure is. Hell no. I'm gonna figure out how to do it.

[Massimo]

Exactly. And you have to, you have to be that kind of person too. I think if you're not that kind of person, who doesn't. Is not interested in learning new shit, then this might not be the, this might not be the business for you to be. Because how much change have we experienced in, in our careers here even in the last five years?

[Guest]

But changes so fast.

[Massimo]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's, yeah, that's, that's a great explanation for that.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah. And that's, and that's what people need to realize. This isn't about cheating. This isn't about lying about, you know, like what you can do. It's more of hiding behind, you know, hiding your insecurities on what you're capable of doing until you can prove it to yourself that you can actually replicate that over and over and over.

[Massimo]

Exactly. Confidence in yourself. Yeah, yeah.

[Guest]

Another one?

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Ready? I hate this one. Clients want award winning designers or anything to do with fucking award winning anything in our space. Okay.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

Again, this is so misleading because people feel that, you know, or, or, or there's this illusion that if you have an award behind you, it kind of shows some sort of success enable that you are able to deliver for the customer. But the reality is a lot of these awards. Yeah, okay. Aren't for client work. Okay. They're when people create things, you know, for awards. And we know that there's this whole toxic, dark gray world where people basically fake just to win awards. Okay. They're not serving the customer properly. They're serving their agency or their egos. They're doing this for their own reasons to win awards.

[Massimo]

Yeah, that.

[Guest]

Like some sort of ego driver.

[Massimo]

Exactly. And nine times out of 10, or I think 10 times out of 10, you're paying to get into these contests. Do. Right.

[Guest]

Almost every time you're paying for these. Exactly.

[Massimo]

So I mean, that doesn't, that's, that's not a good barometer of.

[Guest]

Not at all.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Clients want results.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

Okay. They don't care about trophies or accolades from your peers.

[Massimo]

Yeah, Just your peers.

[Guest]

Honestly, most of these design awards aren't even from industry leaders. They're from your peers, you know, industry. Oh, this designer from this agency decided to give me an award. He was one of the five designers on the panel judging all of our work. Like, you know, get me, get me a rewards, you know, get me a contest or something. Or an award able. For getting your customer the most lead.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Or you know, and I think, you know, Salesforce and you know, do they.

[Massimo]

Do this thing like that?

[Guest]

I believe that a lot of there's awards on that level.

[Massimo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Guest]

But they're not graphic design.

[Massimo]

But they're not graphic designs.

[Guest]

Right.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

So again, because Those are.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Anyway, this is a really shitty thing to, you know, this is a really shady world. I hate this world.

[Massimo]

Unless it's a Nobel Peace Prize. Don't.

[Guest]

Don't bother. And even that sometimes is a little questionable in all fairness.

[Massimo]

There you go.

[Guest]

All right. People often hear, price yourself competitively. I hate this.

[Massimo]

So you go to Fiverr and then you.

[Guest]

Right. Like, pricing yourself competitively against your peers is the quickest way to race to the bottom.

[Massimo]

Yeah. Big time.

[Guest]

Sake.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Guest]

Seriously, like, again, you know, you're not Walmart. This isn't, this isn't, you know, the kind of service, a commodity type service that you're trying to compete with your people on price. Because that is the last thing. That is the last barometer you should be, you know, rating your skills on for anything. Don't compete against everybody else. Set your worth based on your experience, based on, you know, the outcome, you know, based on you, what you're able to provide. That's where you want to price yourself. Don't worry about, you know, pricing against competition. That is one of the reasons why we niched, because by niching, we now took ourselves completely out of that competitor market. And even if somebody was like, well, this, this agency does this for half the price. I'm like, yeah, but they're not niche experts. They don't know the industry like we know the industry. So you want price, go to them. You want results, stick with us and pay up.

[Massimo]

Exactly.

[Guest]

Okay. Because you're paying for something else. But this is not, I mean, I can't handle that. Right. You don't worry about, like, you're not here to, you know, to be the most cost effective solution for a customer. Because that's not what we do as designers. Okay. We want to deliver results. We want to deliver impact for the customer. And when, you know, when you start taking that mentality, you price yourself accordingly for yourself.

[Massimo]

Yep.

[Guest]

Okay. Don't worry about the competition.

[Massimo]

Exactly. Yeah. You may have to refuse a few jobs that, you know, they want to.

[Guest]

They're not going to pay your rate.

[Massimo]

If they're not going to pay you. Yeah. Then you have to kind of take your dignity and say, no, I'm worth more than, than what this is. Give it somebody else and walk away from it.

[Guest]

Walk away from it. Yeah, Go ahead.

[Massimo]

No, I was just gonna say, and like you said, work on your own projects. This is the kind of, this is more beneficial to you in the long term than working for some piece of. And getting 20 bucks an hour.

[Guest]

Dude, that's horrible.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

That's horrible. And that 20 bucks an hour works out to about 10 bucks an hour. Because if they pay that little for you, then, you know, they're gonna nickel and dime you for everything you do. You might not even get your second deposit or your final payment.

[Massimo]

Yes. Yeah.

[Guest]

Shits.

[Massimo]

There you go.

[Guest]

In line with pricing.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Okay.

[Massimo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Guest]

Oftentimes. Oftentimes. You hear year, you should charge hourly or you should charge value based, or you should be charging by the people. Throw out all these blanket statements on how you should be charging.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

Okay. And this is completely misleading because, I mean, this blanket advice doesn't work. It doesn't work for anybody in my opinion. Okay? Pricing is not black and white. There is not a one solution, okay? One thing we did an episode, you know, about a month ago, about a month and a half ago about pricing is a process. It's a journey, okay? You can't start in this industry and decide that you're pricing based on value. Because to be. To be pricing based on value, okay, you have to be somebody. You have to have experience. You have to have, you know, history on the accomplishments you've had to put out there. Okay? You have to, have to, have to start words hourly. Like it or not, I don't care what anybody says.

[Massimo]

Yep.

[Guest]

You can't start this industry any other way.

[Massimo]

That's right.

[Guest]

You have to. Now how do you get to hourly? Okay, Go watch that episode. But I mean, if you want, you have to start hourly, then from hourly you can graduate into. Into project based. Okay? And I, I appreciate project based because, man, I don't like the track hours. Sorry, buddy. And again. And then if you ever want to get. I say that because unfortunately, he still has to try.

[Massimo]

Oh, geez.

[Guest]

Sorry, guys. Don't tell the rest of my team. But I mean, again, you have to start hourly.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

You graduate from hourly to project based. And then once you've got enough experience, once you've got enough, you know, case studies and, and your. Your brand is big enough, then you can charge. Charge value based. No value.

[Massimo]

Oh, value based.

[Guest]

Okay, so it's just a payment method. Right? Those are. That's the step. You have to follow that step. Okay? So when somebody's, you know, you see a bold statement that's like charge value based. It's just like bullshit. You're just a blanket statement. It's like, I just, you know, to catch my attention, you know, hook me in.

[Massimo]

Exactly.

[Guest]

So, yeah, yeah.

[Massimo]

So that's clickbait if I ever seen it.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Massimo]

All Right. Yes.

[Guest]

It's not about you, it's about the client.

[Massimo]

Oh, okay.

[Guest]

And again, this kind of removes your point of view from the equation. Okay. Which I'm not completely against. Okay. But the problem is your perspective, your taste. Okay. The way you do things is part of your brand.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Guest]

Okay. So this agency, we have a very bold, you know, in your face look. Okay. We don't, you know, our work isn't elegant. We don't use thin fonts.

[Massimo]

Not for everybody.

[Guest]

And it's not for everybody. And we're in a niche space even more so. Okay. And people choose our personal preference, our taste. Okay. You know, it's. I get the whole, you know, you have to design for the client, but you have to remember your personal brand, what you've developed, your look, your feel is a very big part of why the client chose you.

[Massimo]

That's right.

[Guest]

And you have to remember the importance of that. Okay. So again, maybe this is a. You have to back up a little bit more and realize you have to build the brain to get to that point. But again, people don't go to Lincoln to. To create something that looks like it's right.

[Massimo]

Like.

[Guest]

And again, you're going to Lincoln and.

[Massimo]

You know what you're gonna get. Yeah, exactly. Yes.

[Guest]

Right. So again, it's not necessarily that. It's not or it's all about you. Okay. But the reality is the customer came to you for a reason. And if it is because of your brand, your personality, your flair, and what you put towards the project, well, then you do have to actually put that in there. The end result is always about, you know, the customer's final results and what we're building for them. But just don't underestimate that. You know, the importance of you and your personality and your brand into their project.

[Massimo]

Yeah. I love that story about your website. You was all fucking cool, tricked out, and this guy came up, said, man, I. I went on your website and I thought, these guys are edgy. I like it. I'm going with that.

[Guest]

If anybody can make my business look sexy, you guys exactly like a dry ice company. And our website was all like, rocker girls and flames and big rigs, but.

[Massimo]

Yeah, but that's like, it's. That says you. You're. I'm. I'm here and I'm big and I'm bold, and this is. This is what I will do for you. This kind of.

[Guest]

And they weren't expecting something, like, so.

[Massimo]

They kind of know their.

[Guest]

Their place, but they knew what they were going to.

[Massimo]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[Guest]

Okay, here's one that you hear a lot. Okay. And, you know, this was very controversial, but say no to spec work. Oh, right. This one is, you know, there's always all these people that stand up, you know, no spec work. No spec work. Don't do for free. Okay. You know, and they treat it like it's. It's the gospel. You hold it up and you're preaching it. Designers, no spec work.

[Massimo]

John. 316. No spec work.

[Guest]

316. The reality is, though, this stops designers from getting relationships. Okay. It starts, you know, stops, you know, from earning trust from certain companies. Okay. Because often times you need to, depending on where you are in your journey. Okay. Spec work can actually open up a lot of doors. Okay. It really can, unfortunately, you know, you need to understand the context, Right. Of what they're asking for. And you need to realize, is this legit or am I just being exploited? Okay. Are they looking for free ideas? And this is the key, and this takes a little while to do. Okay. We have customers, Customers on retainer ask for spec work all the time. Okay. Kind of blessed because it's on retainer. And while it might not be the full price of a project, at least our time is covered. Okay. There's been other opportunities that have come to us, and it's like, I need to see an idea or two or I need to know where your thinking is. Okay. How far you want to take that is up to you. But the reality is, by just automatically saying no to spec work, depending on where you are in your career things, this could really close a lot of doors for you.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

Okay. And, I mean, they're not all exploiting you.

[Massimo]

I was just going to say there's got to be some clients out there that are legit.

[Guest]

Exactly, exactly.

[Massimo]

Okay, good.

[Guest]

Now, if you are. If you are one of 10 agencies who are pitching, you're being exploited. But if you've had a cut list and there's now down to three, you know, from this list, and they like this, this, this, and now they just want to see your take or this or that.

[Massimo]

Right, Right.

[Guest]

You can't be scared to always put, you know, something out there. And again, you have to judge if it's the right time for you and if it's the right opportunity for you. And again, if it's spec work that you can at the very least use as a case study, use in your portfolio, use to, you know, pitch forward, okay, fine, do it up.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

If it costs you money, if it takes weeks out of your Life. And it actually is legitimate stuff that somebody could take and walk away with. Addicted their own. Yeah. Then you got to wonder if you're being exploited.

[Massimo]

Okay.

[Guest]

But again, by blindly saying no to spec work is kind of. It's misleading and it can prevent you, you know, a lot of opportunities in the future. It can prevent. You know, it could really stunt your career.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Right from the start, you know, you want to start making a name for yourself and you just refuse to do anything just to kind of get in the door.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

We had to do a lot of spec work when we started, and, you know, sometimes it felt like it was all for not nothing, but it did open up a ton of doors.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

In the past 10 years, we've done zero spec work.

[Massimo]

Ah.

[Guest]

We turn it away.

[Massimo]

Okay.

[Guest]

We don't need it, we don't want it. And we don't want to be judged or be chosen based on what we're. We. We want to be chosen based on what we brought to the table all these years and who we are now.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Guest]

Not, hey, let us prove ourselves. So again, this kind of goes with the paying your dues, and it's kind of.

[Massimo]

Yeah, interesting.

[Guest]

So there's no say no to spec work. All right. Okay. This one triggers me.

[Massimo]

Oh, oh.

[Guest]

And I hate saying that word trigger. I had fun with my kids about the word trigger because it's such a wussy word to use now. It's. But this one really does trigger me, let me tell you. Join professional design organizations like rgd, aiga, gdc.

[Massimo]

See, dude, that's legit. This guy. Yeah.

[Guest]

Oh. So the idea. The reason why this is misleading is they make you think that by joining this organization, by having this credential on your business card, is going to advance your career, is going to open up new doors, is going to. Is. Is going to change your world. The reality is it is such a load of bullshit on so many levels. I mean, you know. Yeah. They offer. Offer community.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

So does everywhere else online.

[Massimo]

Exactly.

[Guest]

Yeah. They offer resources.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Guest]

YouTube is the biggest resource online, let alone every other social media outlet on how to hell to do what we need to do. Right. They're not. They're not proof. They're not. They're not a guaranteed anything, in my opinion, on. On how to get work, how to improve. Okay. And yeah, while they are networking opportunities, you're networking with other designers.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Guest]

You're not networking for new clients.

[Massimo]

Clients. Yeah, exactly.

[Guest]

And if in any way you think that in future employers or, you know, prospective clients will Be like, oh, well, he's an rgd, you know, graphic designer. You know, he must be good, because, again, they often see through this if they even know what the hell an RGD is.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

This is just one thing to try to make. Make, you know, a certain group of elitists elevate themselves above everybody else.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

And it's kind of. It's disheartening to believe. To believe that this actually exists.

[Massimo]

I know. And it's a cash grab. We talked to our. Our buddy in Austin, and he was like, I don't know, should I do this? And it was like an stupid amount of money.

[Guest]

Stupid amount of money for somebody who was very new.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

And. And. And even he agreed.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

That the resources they provide, they were basic. They were just kind of like, really rudimentary.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Compared to the rest of the industry.

[Massimo]

And if you're going to pay 1500 bucks or whatever the hell it was.

[Guest]

A year as a student.

[Massimo]

As a student, like, that's just.

[Guest]

That's absolute brainwash.

[Massimo]

No brainwash.

[Guest]

And. And again, it goes back to trying to put you into pens and trying to form you into their way of thinking, their way of designing.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

And it's just not worth it. So, again, you know, whether that's, you know, me, my personal opinion, or whether that's just all misleading about. Join an organization like this and you'll get the results. You know, it'll propel you in your career. It's very misleading. So know what you not saying. Don't, but do it for the right reason.

[Massimo]

Yes. Research it. Like, look into it. If that's the case. And, you know, like, this is something that is not a necessity.

[Guest]

Absolutely.

[Massimo]

It's not going to help you or change anything. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. It just is what it is.

[Guest]

All right, two more.

[Massimo]

Two more. Okay, okay, okay.

[Guest]

This one you hear all the time. If you're good, good. You don't need to market yourself.

[Massimo]

Yeah. That's why Alan Peters is never on Instagram.

[Guest]

Right, right, right. Absolutely. He's. He's just that bad.

[Massimo]

Yeah. He doesn't need to.

[Guest]

He's just throwing up the reality. We've all met with all known designers.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

That are less creative. Less. I don't even know how. Just not as good as we are yet. They're busy. They've got clients. Okay. And it's just like, well, what the hell? I'm ten times better than that.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Why is he getting all the work?

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

The reality is being good just isn't enough.

[Massimo]

It's not.

[Guest]

You have to show up, you got to speak up, you've got to network. You've got to put yourself out there on a regular basis. And being very creative or being a talented designer, honestly is not and never has been unique enough in this space. And I think everybody needs to realize that, shake their head and realize that. No, no, no, you've actually got to put yourself out there. You got to work that on a regular basis. So these are misleading statements, you know that I don't, I don't know who believes this.

[Massimo]

Okay.

[Guest]

Maybe the people who, who aren't good enough and they're insecure about this and they're, they're constantly playing this game with themselves, the better.

[Massimo]

They're not making any money, that's for sure.

[Guest]

Yeah, no, because they got all this free time.

[Massimo]

Yeah. Someday all the money will come into me with my awesome work.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Massimo]

No, no, no. Yeah, you, you gotta, you gotta put it out there. You've got to put it out.

[Guest]

You've gotta be out there and you gotta be.

[Massimo]

Exactly. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

[Guest]

All right. And last but not least.

[Massimo]

Woohoo.

[Guest]

Okay, ready?

[Massimo]

Okay.

[Guest]

I hate these statements. Okay.

[Massimo]

Oh, this is a good one.

[Guest]

Design is Insert here. Okay, Seriously. Design is storytelling.

[Massimo]

Design is life.

[Guest]

Design is communication. And people are like, oh, yes, bravo, bravo. You know, this is so misleading because these are these fancy poetic one liners that are put out there that try to oversimplify what it is that we do for a living. And they sound cool, but the reality is they just confuse the. Out of everybody who hears them. Design is storytelling. Yes. You know, these. Design can be stories.

[Massimo]

Yes. It's a design.

[Guest]

Part of it can be communication.

[Massimo]

It's a part of it as well.

[Guest]

It can be empathy. This we know. Okay. But I mean, I get that it's not limited to any one of these specific traits. Design is about solving a customer's problem to make, you know, with intent, a. Okay. On purpose. Okay. To make the end user's life better.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Guest]

Okay. So yes, you know, storytelling is part of that. Communication is part of that.

[Massimo]

Empathy is a great thing for that. It's a great thing for this.

[Guest]

Okay. But it's not one. So if somebody's only giving you one definition and it's vague and it sounds good, but it kind of means nothing. You know, the reality is they're selling something other than design. Okay.

[Massimo]

Yeah. Beware of people that are. They use that kind of.

[Guest]

Yeah, I know, right?

[Massimo]

In that sense.

[Guest]

So this is just an initial list.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Guest]

There was so many more of these I found there was so many of these I cut out because I didn't want to keep you guys on here forever. But the reality is. Okay, you know, we need to embrace critical thinking. Okay. And as a designer, critical thinking is. Is the most important trait I think that we have that we can use. Okay. It' most important tool in our belt because it not only helps us use the tools. Okay. To define the tools that we use, but, you know, the. The path that we're going to take when we're trying to solve customers problems. The. The information that we're bringing in as we're. And it helps every single part of our space.

[Massimo]

Okay. Exactly.

[Guest]

So don't take anything that you see online as verbatim.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Okay. Research it. Figure it out for yourself. See both sides to this and then come to your own conclusion.

[Massimo]

There you go.

[Guest]

I think think that is the most important trait every designer needs to have, not should have.

[Massimo]

Yeah. Needs to have. That's right. Yeah. You can hear people say, sprouting this. This theory or whatever, but expand on that. You don't necessarily. This person, whatever they say is not the gospel. There are other schools of thoughts, and yours might be somewhere in the middle there.

[Guest]

Absolutely. And that's okay. But the one thing. Thing is if you embrace critical thinking to get to your idea, your way of thinking, it's yours.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Guest]

And you have. You have both sides that you can discuss and defend. You're not just a parrot.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

You know, parroting something else. Another statement that somebody else says.

[Massimo]

Exactly.

[Guest]

And defend it.

[Massimo]

That's right. Yeah.

[Guest]

Remember that?

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Cool.

[Massimo]

Oh, I like that.

[Guest]

Sorry, guys. This was longer than I originally thought.

[Massimo]

But these old guys do ramble on. They ramble on.

[Guest]

And this horrible whiskey.

[Massimo]

Oh, you had two glasses.

[Guest]

And just so you guys know, the second glass is equally as bad.

[Massimo]

It's just as bad. It's worse. That's why I stopped at Wood.

[Guest]

Yeah. Yeah. All right. I don't want to waste anybody else's time. This is a long episode.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Guest]

Thank you for listening. My name is Massimo.

[Massimo]

My name is Sean. Stay creative, but stay angry. It.