Female Cops

Summary

The Antihero Podcast: Episode Summary - "Female Cops"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Antihero Podcast
• Host/Author: The Antihero Podcast
• Description: Part Delta Force. Part Street Cop. All Truth.
• Episode: Female Cops
• Release Date: April 14, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Antihero Podcast, titled "Female Cops," hosts Tyler and Brent engage in a deep and intimate conversation with Heather Glogalich, a seasoned police captain with over two decades of law enforcement experience. Heather not only leads her department but also serves as the president of the New Jersey Women in Law Enforcement, a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering women in policing. Throughout the episode, the trio delves into the unique challenges and triumphs faced by female officers, shedding light on issues such as workplace culture, leadership dynamics, and personal resilience.

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Guest Biography

Heather Glogalich:

• Position: Police Captain, New Jersey Women in Law Enforcement President
• Experience: Over 20 years in law enforcement
• Personal Background: Proud mother of four, domestic violence survivor, blue belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
• Organizations: President of New Jersey Women in Law Enforcement, co-host of the "Belted and Unbroken" podcast

Heather's journey in law enforcement is marked by resilience and dedication. As the only female officer in various departments, she has navigated challenging environments, advocating for equity and fostering supportive communities for women in policing.

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Key Discussions and Insights

1. Challenges of Being a Woman in Law Enforcement

   Heather recounts her early experiences, highlighting the hostility and lack of support she faced as the sole female officer in a sheriff's office. She describes instances of overt sexism, such as coworkers covering her bench with derogatory notes:

   "And as I go back into the locker room, the girls had covered the entire like bench in my locker room and wrote a note and said, clean up after yourself, whore." [06:52]

   These experiences underscored the lack of sisterhood Heather anticipated, leading her to seek better opportunities where she could be both a capable officer and a supportive colleague.

2. Leadership and Cultural Transformation

   Transitioning to a new agency in Morris Township, Heather faced the daunting task of being the only female officer for an extended period. She emphasizes the importance of building a cohesive team based on merit rather than gender:

   "I can't just walk in here and be like, I need you to do this without showing you that I can do it too." [06:22]

   Heather advocates for a culture where every officer, regardless of gender, earns their position through skill and dedication, fostering mutual respect and eliminating biases.

3. Domestic Violence and Personal Resilience

   A significant portion of the episode delves into Heather's harrowing personal experiences with domestic violence. She bravely shares her story of surviving an abusive marriage, detailing the emotional and physical trauma inflicted by her ex-husband, Keith Riley:

   "He took his belt off and said, I'm gonna whip you on the legs because if I allow you to live, at least it's October and you can wear jeans and nobody will see it." [19:30]

   Despite the abuse, Heather's determination to protect her children and rebuild her life shines through. Her advocacy now includes supporting others facing similar struggles, emphasizing the importance of mental health and resilience.

4. Advocacy and Mentorship for Women in Policing

   As president of the New Jersey Women in Law Enforcement, Heather spearheads initiatives to empower female officers. She discusses the importance of mentorship, financial planning, and leadership training tailored to the unique challenges women face in this field:

   "We have a mentoring program that's not just for women cops. It's for men cops, too. We have men mentors and female mentors that are a part of it." [118:28]

   Heather highlights how tailored programs can bridge gaps in understanding and support, fostering a more inclusive and effective workforce.

5. Cultural Perceptions and Gender Dynamics

   The hosts and Heather explore the nuanced dynamics of gender within law enforcement. They discuss how preconceived notions and biases can hinder collaboration and mutual respect:

   "You can't treat someone differently just because they're a woman. It's not within this culture for them to call you out." [22:18]

   Heather counters the notion that specific leadership or tactical skills are inherently tied to gender, advocating for recognizing individual strengths irrespective of gender.

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Notable Quotes

• Heather on Team Cohesion:

  "You're looking for the best team. Workforce population and diversity align with building a cohesive team that everyone can respect and support each other no matter what." [Various timestamps]

• Heather on Resilience:

  "I've done a lot of work, like, I felt like such a victim in that four and a half hours where I didn't realize. And I've done a lot of work." [94:10]

• Tyler on Mindset:

  "If you're looking for something, you'll find it. If you're looking for the negative, you'll find it. If you're looking for the positive, you'll find it." [42:16]

• Heather on Leadership:

  "Leadership is about the right person at the right task. You have to put the right person at the right task." [114:20]

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Personal Stories

Heather's candid recounting of her abusive relationship provides listeners with a raw and honest portrayal of the intersection between personal trauma and professional life. Her decision to leave her abuser, despite systemic obstacles and personal fears, serves as a powerful testament to her strength and determination:

"When I got into a car chase... he says, if you let me live, you can't go to work like this for the next three days." [19:30]

Additionally, Heather shares the emotional toll of her ex-husband's actions on her children and her relentless pursuit of justice and personal healing. Her advocacy efforts aim to create safer and more supportive environments for female officers who may be facing similar adversities.

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Conclusions and Insights

The episode culminates in a profound discussion on the importance of mindset, leadership, and cultural change within law enforcement. Heather emphasizes that true leadership stems from understanding one's "why" and leveraging personal strengths to foster a supportive and effective team environment:

"If you understand the why, you'll do the do." [110:27]

The conversation underscores the necessity of creating equitable workplaces where every officer, regardless of gender, can thrive and contribute meaningfully. Heather's journey from a marginalized officer to a leader and advocate highlights the transformative power of resilience and intentional leadership.

Final Thoughts:

The Antihero Podcast successfully sheds light on the multifaceted experiences of female officers through Heather's compelling narrative. By addressing both systemic challenges and personal triumphs, the episode provides valuable insights into fostering inclusivity and strength within law enforcement agencies.

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Notable Segments to Skip

Throughout the transcript, there are segments dedicated to advertisements and promotional content for various products and services. These non-content sections were excluded from the summary to maintain focus on the episode's substantive discussions.

Example of Skipped Content:

• Promotional codes and advertisements for apparel, coffee, testosterone replacement therapy, bedding, holsters, and more.

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Engagement and Call to Action

The hosts encourage listeners to engage with their Patreon for additional content, including behind-the-scenes footage, extra promo codes, and Q&A sessions. Heather also mentions upcoming conferences and leadership courses, inviting listeners to participate and support their initiatives.

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Closing Remarks

The Antihero Podcast masterfully combines personal storytelling with critical discussions on gender dynamics and leadership in law enforcement. Heather Glogalich's experiences and insights provide a powerful narrative that not only highlights the challenges faced by female officers but also celebrates their resilience and contributions to the force.

"Leadership isn't about how you lead, it's about how other people follow and how they need to be led in order to follow the best way." – Heather Glogalich [115:08]

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This episode stands as a testament to the strength and perseverance of women in policing, offering listeners both inspiration and actionable insights to foster more inclusive and effective law enforcement communities.

Transcript

[Tyler]

As a female, I think you would agree on this. For whatever reason, maybe you disagree. I don't want. I don't want to put, you know, words in your mouth that.

[Brent]

How come you didn't say. You always say it just because you're a woman. He goes, I don't want to put words in your mouth.

[Tyler]

I don't want to put anything in your mouth.

[Brent]

Hold on, we're not recording.

[Tyler]

Want to buy a raffle?

[Brent]

Do you want to buy a shirt to support military dance? People want to see their sausage get made.

[Tyler]

An appropriate level of inappropriateness. Something happens in my family tonight. The Delta Force isn't coming to rescue my family. Family might get like it is. First responders. Yeah. That are. That are going to save my family.

[Brent]

They want the culture to be down. They want people to not want to be cops. And the people that do want to be cops are now walking into the job scared to do the job.

[Tyler]

I'm gonna try to act like it didn't happen, although we. We all know it did.

[Brent]

JV team for life.

[Heather]

So if there's a problem, I'll do one of these. Look at you.

[Tyler]

I know we say that, but for whatever reason during the episode, no one ever looks at it.

[Brent]

It's true.

[Tyler]

It makes you think, like, how could you miss it? But you said. You said about this conversation here, and almost no one ever sees it. I know when you first briefed that, I was like, that's awesome. Yeah, that'll fix. Yeah, we miss it all the time.

[Brent]

You know what's nice is not having a 6 foot 2 giant next to me. It seems like every guest we have is taller because. Brent, what are you, six? One?

[Tyler]

I'm six. Even. I'm six. Yeah.

[Brent]

So he's already taller than me. So I'm the shortest one on the podcast. And then all of our guests are like, gargantuan dudes. They're, like, sitting right here. Yeah, I'm five, nine and a half.

[Heather]

Okay. I'm five, nine. We're there. Oh, man.

[Tyler]

Chris.

[Heather]

I could stand up a little straighter. My neck surgery probably made me shorter.

[Tyler]

But Chris was Fort Lauderdale swat. Was he six, seven?

[Brent]

Oh, my God. Good dude concepts.

[Tyler]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. And like a jack. Six or seven.

[Brent]

There's a large man, the guy Rich, that came that.

[Tyler]

Yeah. I was like, Rich was a large man.

[Brent]

He just. He looked like. I was like, you have the look. You're on the team no matter what team you're on. You got the juju. Six foot two, huge with muscles, big beard, fucking hair.

[Heather]

Couldn't have had him here the same day I was here.

[Tyler]

It's fine, it's fine.

[Heather]

I just get the short guy.

[Brent]

Now I'm gonna team you up with something awful.

[Heather]

Well, I mean I'm listening to your episode from this morning and I see that it's episode 118 and that was my badge number. So that's kind of my number, right? It's even tattooed on my arm. And I was like, we fucked this up.

[Brent]

We messed it up.

[Heather]

It's OK guy. He was a cool dude. He said some really big words that kind of turned me on. So I was like, he can have it.

[Brent]

He was very well spoken.

[Tyler]

Who was? Who's 118?

[Brent]

It's today. Scott Howell from Iron Size podcast.

[Tyler]

Oh yeah. Oh, I like Scott.

[Brent]

That was a two and an hour, two hour and 40 minute one that went on for a while. Okay, you guys ready? Welcome back to the It Hero podcast. Part delta Force, part street cop. All truth. I'm Tyler, owner of Refracted Wolf Apparel. Use promo code anti hero and get yourself 15 off the best and outsider cold ultra graphic tees, stickers, hats, flags, beanies, sweatshirts, zip up hoodies and ranger panties.

[Tyler]

And I'm Brent Tucker, owner of FRCC, that's First Responder Coffee Company and First Responder Cigar Company. Use promo code FRCC15, that's FRCC15 to get 15 off the world's best coffee and cigars.

[Brent]

And of course this episode is brought to you by Human performance. Go to HPTRT.com and use promo code HERO and get yourself 20% off your TRT, your testosterone replacement therapy. And it's not just 20% off the one month, it's 20% off every single month. And if you've already gotten your blood work done by the VA or by another clinic, as long as it's been within six months, you can upload it to HPTRT.com and they'll waive your blood work fees. So go to hptrt.com use promo code HERO and get 20 off your testosterone replacement therapy.

[Tyler]

Don't forget our Thursday night lives every Thursday night, 8pm to 10 to 10pm Eastern Standard Time. And our Patreon, our Patreon gets you extra behind the scenes footage, extra promo codes, Q A with us, extra questions for for guests. Get you know who the next guest is. A lot of additional information for what I believe is to be the best prices in the Patreon world in our community. So please consider joining our Patreon and continue to support us yeah.

[Brent]

And as far as the Patreon goes, we are in the DMS trying to catch up. The. The hard one to do is the group. Dms. The group. Because we have subject. What would you call that? Message platforms or the threads.

[Tyler]

Yeah, threads.

[Brent]

So if, like, you're into guns, you can go join the gun thread and everybody's talking about guns. We have one for fitness and, like, people will be like, oh, did you get my message in the fitness one?

[Tyler]

Right.

[Brent]

And after you post something, it's gone because people keep posting. So when I join 12 hours later to look at it, I had to scroll. And so if you want to message us, message us directly. Just say like, hey, this is for Brent. This is for Tyler. That's the easiest way. And we'll get back to you.

[Tyler]

Drew, would you consider doing a. A Christian forum on. On the Patreon where they can startup.

[Brent]

It's usually called Church. Absolutely.

[Heather]

If you guys want it, we'll do it. Too easy.

[Tyler]

All right. They'll. They'll keep you busy with questions.

[Heather]

Well, the hard part is me remembering my password. So if we can get past that.

[Tyler]

Well, we have a universal password for you. All right, let's get into it. With us today, we have Heather Glogalich. She is the captain. Thank you. First time. First time go at that station.

[Heather]

Good job.

[Tyler]

She's a captain of Police Department. Over 20 years of law enforcement experience. She's the president of the New Jersey Women in Law Enforcement's a nonprofit. Proud mother of four and a domestic violence survivor. We're going to get into all that this episode. Heather, welcome to the show.

[Heather]

Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Tyler]

Absolutely.

[Brent]

And she's a blue belt in Brazilian jiu jitsu.

[Heather]

I might be more proud of that than my four kids.

[Brent]

That does not mean you can beat up a man, does it?

[Heather]

Depends on the man. Maybe someone your stature. I could, right? Maybe not his.

[Tyler]

Is that a hype joke?

[Heather]

I mean, you opened the door for it before, but.

[Tyler]

And why aren't you a black belt?

[Heather]

I started too late in life, so I'm still pushing the glass ceiling.

[Tyler]

It'll be a lot of jokes. It's going to be a good episode.

[Heather]

It's going to be a lot of fun.

[Tyler]

I love how you roll with the punches.

[Heather]

Yeah, I'm in. Or the rolls.

[Brent]

That's not a domestic violence joke.

[Heather]

Yeah, that's good. I'm pretty old. It's going to be a good one.

[Tyler]

How long have you been. Have you been doing BJJ to get your blue belt? How long Take you to get your blue belt?

[Heather]

It took me about two years to get my blue belt. I started three years ago. Yeah.

[Tyler]

What, what made you start. What made you start later in life?

[Heather]

You know, it really wasn't anything that was really big around New Jersey. And then all of a sudden we started seeing some changes come through with the required trainings. And one of those was going to be that as police officers, our foundation for defensive tactics was going to be based in Brazilian Jiu jitsu. And so when my daughter had turned to me at the time, she was 5, and she said she wanted to start martial arts. My son had been a first degree black belt, but he was like 10 when that happened. Right. So 10 years old. I don't know how much you can really know as far as taekwondo. And no offense to anybody who loves it, it's a great discipline. It probably helped me actually. I don't know why I said that, because all you guys do is offend people. So I'm good to go. I'm gonna.

[Tyler]

That's right.

[Brent]

This is the platform.

[Heather]

Yeah. Nothing out. I just for my daughter, I wanted something that was realistic to be able to defend herself. And so I started asking around to some of my cop friends and they were like, you definitely have to put her in Brazilian jiu jitsu. And I'm like, all right, cool. So I started her at 5. I needed a hip replacement, so I couldn't really start until after that was done. Got my hip replacement in February of 2022 and started in March of February 2022.

[Tyler]

I don't know that much about the requirements of getting your belt and martial arts, but I do have a question now that you said that if you get your black belt at like such a young age at 10, do they or should they, you feel like they have to like recertify you as an adult, so to speak. Is there something.

[Heather]

Can you.

[Tyler]

Cause can you really be a black belt at. At 10? I mean, you maybe can have like the technical knowledge, but I don't know enough to. I'm just intrigued by that.

[Heather]

I don't really either. After he got there, he just didn't want to do it anymore.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Heather]

So he hasn't. Now he is a junior in high school and he's wrestling and he's doing jiu jitsu. And you know, I would have never even asked that question. Crazy enough.

[Brent]

But it's one of those things if you leave, come back, right?

[Tyler]

Yeah. Here's my question now that I think I can ask you about it. When he Gets his black belt at 10. He's absolutely, you know, a black belt of like, of 10 year olds. Yeah, you know what I mean? But at some point he's going to be 30 and making it up and he's going to say he's a black belt. But is he really a black belt now? He's 30, it's been 20 years. Like, you know, he did that when he was 10. Do you get that black belt moniker the rest of your life? Is it something you, you have to research for? Because now and just age wise, it's just drastically, stressfully different.

[Heather]

Yeah. And they're still learning their guidance about that.

[Brent]

Well, here's the thing. The art with any type of discipline or any type of exercise, like you're, you're not going to make any money as a gym if you're like, hey, we honor, we honor the discipline. So you're new here, we got to test you. And you don't test anything to the belt you say you are. So you're going to start here. They're probably going to go to a gym that's like, hey, you're a purple belt. They're certified. You're starting as a purple belt. And so I mean, that's just a business move.

[Tyler]

But a lovely was. But he's the baddest, baddest kid in the school at 10 years old as a black belt.

[Heather]

There are kids definitely doing jujitsu back then. I just, you know, for me that's kind of what I love about jiu jitsu. Like you earn it when you earn it. Yeah. There is no test. It's what you can do on the mats when you're rolling with your instructors. And you know, my friend Michelle, she went away from the sport for a long time and came back and she had been a blue belt, but they made her work really hard to earn her purple belt. You know, she had to. She still had the foundational skills, but getting back in that mode of training took a while.

[Brent]

Do you have a podcast about that? Women in combat. I thought I saw that.

[Heather]

Belted and unbroken. Her and I have a podcast together.

[Brent]

Belted and Unbroken.

[Heather]

Unbroken. Because the two of us together have had like 27 surgeries.

[Brent]

One good hit between the two of you, maybe.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

Let'S walk it back because there's a bunch of those things that I want to get into that I think, or more current day, but I kind of want to keep it chronological. Twenty years ago, there's women in law enforcement is something that they're even pushing for. Now, now this is an open ended question. I'll let you answer it. You probably went through the whole that it wasn't cool to be woman in law enforcement is very difficult now. It is perceived to be is whatever. I'll let you answer that question. But I think it's at least it's safe to say in this 20 year care in law enforcement women. It's been a. When it started 20 years ago, it was different than today.

[Heather]

Yeah, I would say even five years ago it's changed. But yeah, 20 years ago when I came on the job, I think I had this mindset of feeling as though I was lucky to even be there. So I didn't have a voice very much and I just was like, oh my gosh, thank you for letting me be a part of the game. And I wasn't happy where I started. I started at a sheriff's office and where I was surrounded by a lot more women. Right. Like normally in the sheriff's offices there's just more women there. Whether it's because it's a Monday, you know, I don't know. For me it was a step in the.

[Brent]

There's static positions, there's jails, there's courts. So there's less, there's sheriff's office have a lot of like non road.

[Heather]

Yeah, you're not okay. Yeah, that was my foot in the door personally. Like I knew as soon as I got in there I was out. I can't stand in a courtroom. I had add. I wanted to be out. I like to run, I like to gun, I like to lock up the bad people. I just like to be a part of the community and. But the girls were the meanest to me there. Right. So we talk about this whole sisterhood, but it was just a bunch of bullshit.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Heather]

Yeah. So I left pretty quickly. No facts before acts on that one. And you know, I ended up meeting him and then closing out the courthouse one night. And as I go back into the locker room, the girls had covered the entire like bench in my locker room and wrote a note and said, clean up after yourself, whore. And I'm like, what the fuck did I ever do? Yeah, I was like, this is bullshit. What did I sign up for? There's no brotherhood and nobody in my family had ever been a cop. Like I wasn't warned about this, you know. And yeah, I mean there was this competition all the time because I wasn't complacent in standing in a courtroom. And not that there's anything wrong with that. That's great for some people. And so I started looking for a new agency, and I went to Morris Township, where I was the only girl. And as I sat at my interview there, like, I had a little bit of a set of balls because I already had a job, right? So I could be a little bit more transparent in what I was looking for. And as the chief and the two captains sit across the table from me, they're like, hey, so why do you want to leave the sheriff's office? Normal question, right? And I was like, because, honestly, I just. I want to be a part of the real stuff. Like, I want to make an impact on the community first. Like, that's what I want to do. It's what I signed up for. He's like, yeah, but sheriff's office, Monday through Friday, holidays off. Like, don't you want to have a family? Isn't that going to be easier for you?

[Brent]

How are you going to bear children?

[Heather]

Yeah, how could you do that? And I was like, yeah, that's a valid question. I go, but, you know, I think I can do both. But, oh, boy, he doesn't want me that close.

[Brent]

The USS Max.

[Heather]

Yeah. I was like, great question. I go, but are you going to ask the guys the same question that are sitting outside? And they were like, oh, shit, right? They went white. I think they hired me just so I didn't sue them. Whatever. It is what it is. But I started there. I was the only female for a long time, and I loved being at Morris Township, but the culture was pretty shitty. I mean, off. Off the bat, they made me feel like I wasn't ever going to be able to be a great parent, a great spouse, and a great cop at the same time.

[Brent]

Let me ask you this question. Specialty units, even today, let's say they're more operational on the road, like working the streets. And you put in. And do you think they should be able to. Or do you agree with it if they were to ask females about, like, maternity questions? Like, do you. Like, do you plan on having a baby because it takes you off the road and behind a desk and we need people operating? Do you think that's what you feeling about that?

[Heather]

I go on both sides, if I'm being really honest about it, because I have the side of me that was a female and got denied being on teams like SWAT because they didn't want a female. They just didn't want a female. It didn't matter who the female was. And so they'd wait until I was pregnant and then run the PT test. Right. But then there's the administrator side of me. Yeah. But then there's the administrators, and I love that shit, man. I'm not the most tactical person in the world, but I'm also not that girl who only pulls her gun out twice a year to qualify. Like, I dry fire every day. I love my gun. I, like, love it. But, you know, for me as an administrator, I also see the purpose of that. But I guess if you put it on the same thing as well, do you plan on getting injured and being out for surgery? Like, would you have to plan on.

[Brent]

Deploying with the military?

[Heather]

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I think everybody should have a fair shot at being a part of it, but then you have to worry about that team cohesion and the equity within the team. Right. Like, what if you need that person in that body to be in there? So I don't know which side of it I'm on. And I feel like it's probably very dependent on the size of the agency, how many people are on the team.

[Brent]

It's hard because I asked you because you're a captain, because I knew you'd have, like, a duality of how you think about it, because I made a team with a big bearded dude. Sergeant. Seven guys, they have their eight spot open. They're working hard, and they're like, we know three good candidates for this. And it's not saying that this female wouldn't be a great asset to the team, but I heard rumors that her and her husband are. This is made up, by the way, are trying to have a baby, and she put in for it. And I, you know, and it's that culture thing that's like, we can't ask that, but we want to ask that.

[Heather]

Yeah. I mean, the same thing with asking the husband, though, right? Are you planning on taking 12 leaves of 12 weeks of family? Yeah. So I don't. Again, yes, the woman has to be pregnant for the nine months. But what about if you have two lesbians that are in a relationship and they're trying to have a baby? Are you going to be like, oh, are you going to be the carrier? Are you going to be this? I mean, it's, It's. It's a delicate subject in how to ask in. And if you do, how do you do it in a way that doesn't seem like you're segregating based on their choice to be a mom or dad?

[Tyler]

Well, let me, Let me ask it this way, because I think when you said, like, well, are you going to ask them the same question. Well, they. They shouldn't have to ask them the same question because they. They can't create babies.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

I mean, it's a valid question. You know, you have four kids, you know, depending on how long you took off, you know, being on patrol from the end of your pregnancy to, you know, to. To being a. A new mother, each one of them, you could have been off the road for months for each one of them. And with four, that totals possibly making up these numbers. A year off the road.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

So that's something that's unique to you. That's just not unique to men.

[Heather]

Agreed.

[Tyler]

And the paternally for men is a new thing. It's not. It's not. It's not something we've. We've always had.

[Heather]

It's been around for a longer time than people have utilized it. I think it's becoming more commonplace to let men feel as though they can use it. In Jersey. I can. You know, I. Obviously, I can talk about it there because we also have New Jersey family leave. Yeah.

[Brent]

Are you coming this weekend?

[Heather]

I am.

[Brent]

You are?

[Heather]

It's this weekend?

[Brent]

Yes. April 5th.

[Heather]

Yeah, I think I am.

[Brent]

Okay.

[Heather]

Yeah. I think Kenny's like, I am now. It's in my calendar. I'm lucky. I know today's Monday and. Yeah. And that's kind of why I said before, you know, it's different. Like, the men would take the 12 weeks, or maybe not, but then, you know. And that's one of the things I talk about in the class I teach. I really try to preach for women to take ownership of that. Right. Not just have an expectation of something and a step up. Because again, it is our right on whether or not we're going to be full duty or not. And each one of my pregnancies was different.

[Tyler]

Right.

[Heather]

First time I was pregnant, I'm like, I don't know what the fuck is going on. Right. I don't know how I'm gonna feel.

[Brent]

Don't take me out, coach.

[Heather]

Yeah. The chief is like, I don't really know what to do. I'm like, I don't know what to do, E. I'm like, this is my first time being pregnant. And then two days after telling him, I get into a car. Car chase, and I blast out a window with my asp because the car starts rolling backwards. They didn't put it in park when they. When they ripped the driver out. And I, like, bashed it, jumped in and cut up my whole stomach. And I was like, well, shit. Like, I Obviously don't know how to tone myself down.

[Brent]

What is this police work you speak of? I've never heard of this. Chasing cars.

[Heather]

Yeah, no, girls don't usually do it, so of course you haven't heard about it. It's fine.

[Tyler]

And it's just again, they're, they're just on honest questions.

[Heather]

Yeah, I appreciate it.

[Tyler]

At six months pregnant, should you be rolling around, you know, with male or female subject, like fighting?

[Heather]

Yeah. And it's an individual question. And that's really hard being an administrator too because I mean, I work at njit, right. And a lot of people like, oh, you're a campus cop. Believe me, I had the same bias about it when I went there. I'm like, am I still gonna feel like a real cop here? But we're in Newark and you know, we're patrolling all the areas within Newark. And I don't know if you know much about Jersey, but Newark's probably one of the top three.

[Brent]

Sounds very crime related.

[Heather]

Yeah. High crime areas in Jersey. And I mean, I absolutely love it. I love the culture, I love being there. But you know, I now have 11 other women and a lot of them may at some point have babies. And in the back of my mind I'm going to be worried about them. Like, you don't even. It could just be a car accident, right? It could be you going somewhere and being in a car crash. Just like I would be nervous about somebody who was injured and was like kind of putting off surgery if they were out on the road. Like, I want my best people out there. I don't care what your gender is. I don't care whatever's going on. Like I. And we started to have this conversation earlier. It's about the best people on your team being out there.

[Brent]

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[Tyler]

Nailed it. Nailed it.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Brent]

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[Heather]

But. And are you at your best condition? So I worked up until I was 11 days before I had my number three in full duty. But I was a school resource officer and for me I felt safe enough to be there like that I wasn't out pulling over cars. But sure as if something went down, you know, I would have left that school and I would have went and it was, would have just been a choice I had, I made because that's me personally. But I also think that there's people out there that take advantage of stuff like that too.

[Tyler]

There are, here's the problem of sorts. There are people that take advantage, but there's people that take advantage on both sides, male and female. There are people who take advantage of. But as a female, I think you would agree on this for whatever reason, maybe you disagree. I don't want, I don't want to put, you know, words in your mouth that.

[Brent]

How come you didn't say it? You always say it just because you're a woman. He goes, I don't want to put words in your mouth.

[Tyler]

I don't want to put anything in your mouth.

[Heather]

I mean a cigar would have been nice, but it's fine. I do. But I'm not going to because I'm sick.

[Tyler]

Okay, right.

[Heather]

But not sick. I have allergies. But it's cute how the both of you just went to get up. That was very gentleman like.

[Tyler]

But you know, it goes back to end of the day reading the room and we can say it all you want like, you know, I won't treat you any different because you're a woman. That's just not true. For someone to say that is just ridiculous. And it works for you and against you. And I'm you being one. I'm sure you can tell you all the times that it works against you and those are like things, the things you think about. But when a guy does a job that's, you know, and, and skates out on it, usually a guy will be another guy. Be really quick to call that guy out or guys will, will get on to guys for being lesser Than. Than men. Now, they may say or think the same thing about you, but it is not within this culture for them to call you out.

[Heather]

I don't know if I agree.

[Tyler]

You. I should say females. There's a lot of times guys will have opinions on females. They will not tell them because it is you. You can't. It's rude. You'll get in trouble for. You'll get. You are more apt to get in trouble for bullying a female than it is to just talking to. Just being. Being a man to another man.

[Heather]

Yeah, I will agree with you to that to an extent, because I think up in Jersey, it's just got. It's become this culture where nobody's allowed to say anything to anybody anymore.

[Tyler]

That's right.

[Heather]

Right. Like, at all. It doesn't. It doesn't matter what it is. Everybody is sensitive. Like, you can't even give somebody constructive criticism without them being like, you're only saying that because I'm this. Or you're only saying this because you're friends with that one. And it's like, no, I'm saying it because you suck.

[Tyler]

That's. Here's a great point. And sometimes I think we just need to talk to each other more, to be honest with you. Yeah. We had a female in special operations that was there, like, as an intel support. And usually what happens is females will say, we just. We don't be treated any different. We just want to be treated like the guys. I don't think girls know how guys treat new people. We treat them like crap. And if. And when she got treated like crap, she was like.

[Heather]

She.

[Tyler]

She was like, right, we're not going to treat her different. So we said the same things or we would say anyone else. And she took uber offense to it. And she confides in me one day and she's like, oh, well, you know, they don't. They. They're saying that because I'm a girl and they wouldn't tell me of this if I was another guy. I was like, no, this is exactly how we would treat any other new person. You don't want to be treated any different. And then when we don't treat you any different, you say we're bullying you because you're a girl. You can't have it both ways. I'm not asking to sit here and defend girls, you know?

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

But I think we're getting to have this conversation here in real time of sorts, that people are scared to have with. That they should be having with their coworkers.

[Heather]

Yeah. And the conversation I have with girls a lot, because I feel like it's necessary, is that there's a difference between being treated equally and being treated fairly. Right. Like, we're never all gonna be equal. You and I are not equal on anything. You and I are not equal on anything. Every single person I work with, all of us have our strengths and all of us have our areas that need improvement. And if one, if you're gonna dish it out, you better be able to handle it. But I don't, I don't know if I've ever been the girl where I've been. Like, you're only treating me that way because I'm a girl, even though I know that there are sometimes I have been mistreated only because of me being a female. And I do feel as though where I've come, I've 100 had to work harder, but I also have to check myself because I don't know what other people are doing. They might be working really hard and not getting acknowledged for it too. And as you go up the ranks, you do start to see that because you're in that inner circle of the information that you didn't get as patrol officer wherever you were. Right. Like your world is so singular when you're a patrol officer and when you move up into that frontline supervisor, even as a field training officer, you start to see the nuances behind why some people maybe need to get retrained or they're put with certain people. And you start to understand that the human dynamic and the psyche of the people that you bring in, it's, it's to make that cohesive team. And I, I believe that me personally, and not because I'm a woman, but because of how I was raised and from the great men that have supported me in the success of my career. Right. I've never had a female mentor. The females are horrible to me. Any of my success has been supported by a man, a great man. They've shown me what to do and what not to do. And so I feel as though that people can be offensive, but you choose to be offended. And so I rarely ever allow people to offend me because if you don't pay my bills, I don't give a shit about your opinion.

[Brent]

Well, let me ask you this. When you, like when you. But like a supervisor, I don't know if this happens so much in the culture anymore in law enforcement, but like when a male supervisor wants to have a closed door conversation with a female, whether it be about disciplinary stuff or performance. So there's a lot of times where good supervisors, it's between you and them, but them bringing in another person and saying, I need to have another man, another witness here because you're a woman.

[Heather]

I just do it with everybody.

[Brent]

Or not.

[Heather]

I mean, I do, but I think you should do that with everybody. Like, okay. In this day and age, with the way that people are, especially when it comes to paramilitary like police where everybody can be sue happy. I think it's important to always have somebody else in the room with you. And for, for no other reason other than like, maybe I'm, I'm, I'm not seeing it. Perfect example, right? Totally off the subject of law enforcement. I coach my daughter's soccer team and there's another female coach and there's a. And two other male coaches traveling. We're, we have a great team and we moved them up to the highest flight this year. And these two males were coaching the other team against us. And at some point he turns to one of his players when they're up 5 to 1 over us and he goes, leave that girl stuff at home. Like, stop being a lady and leave that lady stuff alone. Right? And I took that as you're coaching little girls team of nine and ten year old girls, like, don't be the guy that doesn't allow us to bring our femininity into it. And I actually want to touch because you kind of said that before. And then I started talking to the other girl coach and she's like, no, no, no, no, no, she wouldn't pass to the other girl. And he meant like, leave that bullshit elsewhere. He didn't, he wasn't trying to insult her because of like girl stuff on the field and her being nice. And I was like, man, I didn't even see it from that. So sometimes having that other person in there, that other perspective could be important. And then you had mentioned something about gender that I just went back for and I lost it. Add gone.

[Brent]

Oh, it happens. It'll come back.

[Tyler]

They might say hamster fell off the wheel, yo, but it always gets back on eventually. The, you know, I'm asking you questions like this again because we can say what you said. You've watched her show. We can say what we want to say without a female present. But you know, be honest with you, it's different. Like, hey, let's have these same discussions when we have a female on the show. I don't know if you caught our last Thursday Night Live, but there was a, there was a women's do you remember what it was?

[Brent]

Miami.

[Tyler]

It was. No, not the. No, it was a woman's leadership only out of Florida.

[Heather]

And you started talking about women only and how does that promote an environment? And why does it have to be women focused? Right. Especially when it comes to leadership.

[Tyler]

Because the, the. I always look at, I always view things. Not, not just. I don't, I don't, I don't dislike it because it's all women. You just, it's how, how my mind works. Always go, hey, if it's right for these people to do this, would it be right for these people and these people do this? Is it fair across the board? So it's an all women's leadership seminar, I believe, for, for law enforcement. And I thought, do we have male only leadership courses? We don't. Do we have white only? Do we have black only?

[Heather]

We do have black only.

[Tyler]

Well, well, should, should we.

[Heather]

Or Muslim or.

[Tyler]

Yeah, or Muslim or like you can go down it. So if you can't do it for all to me, you shouldn't do it for any. What, what are your thoughts on, on the all lady leadership? Should it be done and if it should, why?

[Heather]

I believe in a majority specific, whatever it is in order for people to come together with like, like issues. Right? So. And I, and I say that because I run a 550 women conference, except we gladly invite the men, right? We want them there. We. You may not realize that like once, like, if you had never had kids and I came back from. And you were maybe, you know, my supervisor, and I came back and I'm like, this vest sucks because my boobs are so big right now because of all the milk from breastfeeding.

[Brent]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Heather]

Right? Like, imagine that conversation if it's not, if it's not something that's already talked about, like, why aren't we having those conversations? So I do believe we. And I'm part of a couple leadership teams that teach. That teach leadership. One is command and leadership with the New Jersey State association of Chiefs of Police. And the other one is Delta, which is from the Department of Justice out of New Jersey. And it's never only male or female. And so my feeling is that there's a time and a place, right. I did go to an all female handgun tactical class, which was really beneficial, but it's run by a man I trust because I can't find a female instructor that I trust to run that. Right? So I use who's the best. And what really happened there for us was the ability to be like, hey, like, when you had your C section and you came back, did you have to change your belt? And, like, how did you crouch? A little bit different. If it was eight weeks later, it left, like, an opportunity to have conversations that weren't necessarily like, I, I, I wouldn't be asking you, how did you feel after a C section? Right. I mean, or. Or like, you know what? And here, women's hands are usually smaller, right? I have man hands. I think my hands are bigger than yours. Don't.

[Brent]

I knew you're gonna say I'm sorry.

[Heather]

Here, put your hand up. No, no, no. You can do it. Don't be scared. Yeah, see, I have bigger hands than him. Even without my black, I can shoot.

[Brent]

A Glock 21 just fine.

[Heather]

I love it. Super cute. You want my P365 small, little girl hands? Yeah.

[Tyler]

The size of strength.

[Heather]

Those are.

[Tyler]

Those are strong hands.

[Heather]

Strong for it not being about S. Anyway. So for me, I've always been a really decent shot. I just never really had somebody to talk to me about certain things. And Rich, I think, is fantastic. Rich Bruno, who teaches this class for us, he's a cop. And. But girls have smaller hands. So sometimes we just need somebody to take the time and not just yell at us like they're taught in the academy to these instructors to be like, hey, the curvature of your hand is here. And the way your finger indexes inside the trigger guard is a little bit different. And maybe if you move this stance, and I don't think that that's just female because I'm probably one of the tallest people in my agency. Like, I'm in the top quarter of height, right? I'm a big girl. I have a lot of small guys like you that I work with. I'm not gonna let go of it. I'm just not gonna. I love you, but I'm not gonna. So I think that there is. There's always an opportunity to be able to have the conversations that people might need on a specialty level. And yes, I do think that my leadership is different than maybe my other co captain. Then I bring my femininity into it. And that's where I'm going to circle back to what you said you. And see, it came back. The scroll got back on the wheel. You mentioned about how there's pros and cons to who I am and my femininity. And I think I needed somebody to give me permission to bring that femininity into the job. Like, I, for a long time was that Asshole. I was like. Because I felt I had to be. I'd lower my voice so I didn't sound stupid on body worn cameras. I wouldn't be upset over certain incidents that I usually should have been able to be emotional over. I use being a dumb blonde white girl to my advantage more than guys did. Coming off being assholes. Right. I got more people to confess. I got like, I play your strengths. Oh, 100 or my non strengths and just play it up. But like, I don't have a problem being feminine and being a badass.

[Brent]

I think if, if conferences and classes and courses were all worded a certain way.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Brent]

Tactical shooting as a female is different than tactical shooting for FEMA females. Four females makes everyone think it's being tailored for you in a way that like you can't do it. I can see as a female is, hey, this is what God gave you. This is how you are. There's no changing it, no matter what. And like, just like those con, those conferences for leadership. If it was leadership as a female, you're going to be leading men of different races, different colors and you know, so as a female, this is what you got to do. As opposed to, I think feminine. Feminine. How do you say that word? Feminism.

[Heather]

Feminism.

[Brent]

Feminism creeps into those classes and starts giving a false sense of like, like, you can do this. When they aren't playing off their strengths, they're starting to just give them a false sense of like, go in and own these men.

[Heather]

Yeah. And I don't, I mean, I can only attest for the classes that I'm in. I'm. I don't like that mindset at all. So, you know, I know we talked about 30 by 30 very briefly and there is a lot of components of it that I don't necessarily. Especially when it comes to draft dropping standards. I don't agree. However, what I've seen and I was. I'll be very, very transparent. When I got transferred into NJIT, their whole mission statement is based off of the 30 by 30 New Jersey Institute of Technology Police Department. So when I transferred in there, their whole mission statement is based off of the 30 by 30 created. And I was like, what are you doing? Like, I don't want to be a part of this instructor.

[Tyler]

Right.

[Brent]

That's. When would that.

[Heather]

No, I'm a captain there for my agency. He put that, he put that aside. Nope. It's my police department.

[Brent]

What's the Institute of Technology?

[Heather]

It's a college campus. Oh, I got it.

[Brent]

Okay.

[Heather]

I'm just a little Campus cop and I just yell at students all day. But mostly your height. So I didn't even say anything. So actually that's not true. Most of them are a lot smaller. But for me, I read that and was like, why is this so female focused? Like, I'm not worried about creating a team of qualified females. Like, why are we assuming that there are non qualified females that we're hiring? Like, what's that about? And I challenge it. And he's like, well, it's kind of be in there as the 30 by 30 pledge. And what I can say is that the benefits I've seen from it is where you have some male dominated agencies that will. Will look at women negatively just because they have a vagina and won't pull them in, it's almost forced them to be like, all right, maybe we're being assholes and you know, this guy that we have a liability suit against, or this one who can't even shoot his gun and all this stuff. Stuff. We just pick them because they were men instead of women. And I have since. So I was one of two females when I got hired in September of 2023. We've since now got 12 females. And I'm telling you, these girls can run circles around some of the guys. I've worked elsewhere, but I turned down a hell of a lot of females. And none of them have we put through the academy. They all transferred from other agencies where they were getting treated like shit, where they didn't feel like there was that brotherhood and that sisterhood where they were pigeonholed and not allowed to be a detective and not allowed to be this way, or just because they are women. So we've been able to create this culture where it doesn't matter what you are. Well, you are part of a family.

[Brent]

How do you know it's just because they were women? Is it just the sole testimony that they came to you and said it was because of a woman?

[Heather]

No, absolutely. I can tell you that based on their feelings, they'd say certain things and then we have deep conversations. But I'm a straight shooter. When I ask questions like, what did you do? What's your IA look like? And since I oversee the detective bureau, I wanted to see every single person because I'm the future of that agency, right? So there's a bunch of people that were there, 20 of them that were there before me. So they're the past of this agency. And this doesn't happen in Jersey. You don't just transfer from one agency to another. And get promoted at 21 years on, you just don't. It just doesn't happen. And so as I went in there, I was like, if I'm building a team of the future, I want to build the agency that I wanted to be a part of. I don't want it to matter. I don't want to just be like, oh, we don't have anybody that speaks Spanish. Let's push to get Spanish speaking officers. No, because if you're at the bottom of the list, it's like saying, who's going to do your brain surgery? The person who graduated the bottom of a brain surgery school. Neuroscience.

[Tyler]

I agree with that.

[Heather]

You want the best brain surgery school. My neurologist is going to be so pissed. I literally just had brain surgery.

[Tyler]

So there's, here's the culture that. And I preach this all the time when I go around training SWAT teams. Culture, Culture is everything. But it's a weird thing to talk about. A lot of people just talk about it in generalities, you know, because then you got to drill like, what is culture? How do you get culture? Like, you know, how do you lose culture? It's. But if you drill down it and, but that answer is different to every different department, agency, regionally. But the core parts of, of that culture will, will, will be the same. And this is the type of culture, you know, that, that I would want. You know, hey, you're, you're a female. And you think that that guy over there doesn't, you know, is looking down on you because, because you' instead of having this attitude that, oh, he's an asshole. F him. And now you have this animosity, you know, towards him. How about the competitive spirit of I'll prove to you that I didn't get hired here just because of a 30 for 30 push or because I'm a female. I'll prove to you that I earned this job and I'll earn your trust. And if we had more of that mentality, which is at the end of the day is the new guy mentality. I mean, that's, that is usually the, the new guy mentality when it's an all male field and you're the new guy, you know, the new guys don't sit there and start animosity. I know that's different. It's one of those things that's different but the same. But the mentality and the result end up being the same is, oh, he just hates me because I'm a new guy. F that guy. Like, you don't no one has that meant generally has that mentality. They go, okay, you don't like me because I'm a new guy. I earned my spot here. I'll earn your trust, I'll prove it. And that mentality is what will put people on the same, on the same playing field. Not the animosity towards it and the, oh, at some point, you know, females are here, they're here to stay, and you're going to have to accept it. That's not, that's not going to get us there.

[Heather]

I agree. Prove it to them 100%. And I'm not one who normally, like, pats myself on the back. I just, I don't like it. It makes me feel uncomfortable. I'm very much about the we in a team. But I will say that that mentality is what I took when I transferred into this agency, because as someone who was coming in and there were all these people that had been there before me, here I was taking someone else's position as a captain, someone else that could have potentially gotten it, and they opened it up just to bring me in. And yes, part of that was he wanted a strong, as he puts it, a strong female as a mentor to both the men and the women. Somebody who had a career where, like, he wanted that municipal feel because they were such a camp department. He wanted a cop. Right. Which is a huge compliment to me. But I didn't just walk in there assuming that they were just gonna give me respect because now I had butter bars on my shoulders. And so I went to every single qualification and I shot right along with every single guy and girl there because I wanted them to see, like, yes, I could do it. And I went out and I made motor vehicle stops and I sat in and I interviewed people and, and I did the work and everything that I asked for them to implement, I did it too, to. Because I was like, I can't just walk in here and be like, I need you to do this without showing you that I can do it too. Right, right. And then that, that's what leadership is. And, you know, I worked, I, I now work along some of the greatest people I have. I mean, I love going to work again. It's like through 21 years when I should be winding down, I have this rejuvenation of, of being a cop in a community that I love very much. And yes, there's the campus community, which changes over like every four or five, six years depending on, on how long kids are in college. But then I have this Newark community Surrounding me. And it's just all of this beautiful. Like, everybody thinks that everybody hates cops, and that's just not the case. Like, if you're. If you're the kind of person that walks into any situation in a way that's genuine and not on your high horse, not automatically assuming someone's not gonna like you because you're a white female or you're a white cop, or you are a cop and have a badge, like, if you walk in there with great bracing patients with anything, that you're going to get a positive result back.

[Tyler]

Yeah, there's. I think I've mentioned it before. There's. There's this study that was. And it's just very interesting to me, and I think it. It proves a lot of. Some of the things that we're talking about, which is if you're looking something, you'll find it. And they. It just happened to be a study on females. They were going on this into these business interviews, and they put a scar on their face and said, hey, we're conducting a study to see if people with, you know, abnormal, you know, abnormalities are treated different than people without. And so they put this scar with makeup on their face. And these, however many women they decided to do this to. And then right before they went into the interview, they said, oh, hold up, like, your makeup's a little bit off. We're gonna. We gotta touch it up. And what they did was remove the scar. And so they went in there on these interviews believing they had a scar on their face. And when they came out of the interviews, they said, how do you think it went? They're like, oh, horrible. They wouldn't stop. They treated me different because I had a scar in my face. They wouldn't stop looking at my scar. They had this mentality of what actually wasn't there, which really goes go. If you, in your mind, if you're looking for it and you believe it, you'll find all the reasons to reinforce that. And that's the problem. If you're looking for the negative, you'll find it. If you're looking for the positive, you'll find it. And we just have to have some sort of. It goes back to, again, culture. We have to have some sort of culture change. And you being in a leadership position enables you to be that effect. You guys, you guys set culture. You set it.

[Heather]

We do. And I think that's one of the things that we do with New Jersey women in law enforcement. It is not like this. We hate men. She woman club Whatever it is.

[Tyler]

Right.

[Heather]

It's not womanhood. Haters club. Yeah. That's it, right? Yeah, that's our club. Yeah. Okay. Is there any.

[Tyler]

He's gonna start. We didn't have this club before you. He's gonna start this after you put.

[Brent]

A sign on the door.

[Heather]

I love it. Yeah. I mean, what I. What I challenge women to do is to look outside what they've been taught. And I. I really hate when people are like, I'm the victim. I'm the victim. I'm the victim. Like, you know, we can be victims of crimes. Right. You talked about how I was a domestic violence survivor. Like, that's the difference. Like, I'm not a domestic violence victim. I was a victim, and then I chose to survive it and thrive for it. And that's the same thing with the mindset. If you walk in and you automatically assume that it's because of this, you're letting go of everything that we can teach in regards to equity. Right. Every time you point at somebody else, there's that phrase. Like, when you point one finger at somebody else, there's three that are pointed back at you, and you have to look because, you know, for instance, I worked with this kid that got in at Morris Township that got the detective bureau, like, pretty quickly on in his career, about two or three years, which was unheard of in Morris Township. It took you 10, 15 minimum to even get in that door. And everybody wanted to be there. And he got it, and he deserved it. I mean, he was a hard worker. He was a great cop. He grew. He wrote detailed, beautiful reports in regards to investigations that just couldn't even be fucked with in court because it was so good. Like, the kind of guy you want in there that was creative and just awesome. Right? And what do you think they all said because of jealousy? They're like, oh, it's only because he's like the third cousin of the brother to the mayor.

[Tyler]

Right, right, right. You'll find the reason. You can look for it.

[Heather]

Yeah. You find the reason. So, I mean, and I know it sounds crazy because we work in a profession. Whichever profession you're in, on both sides of this table, that is so much negativity because it's so much easier to listen to the noise. And I just. I wake up with gratitude every day. And I. I really do push that out. Like, it's about the pot positivity. And. And I've gotten to the point where I've gotten really good at calling out people on their. Like, I have one person That'll come to me. And they're like, they're only treating me this because of this way and this happened. I was like, well, I wasn't here for that. So what's your excuse with me? I was like, is it because I'm holding you accountable? I'm like, you're making me hold you accountable because you're not doing what I asked you to do. And I gave you plenty of chances. Like that's a you problem, not a me problem. You put me here. And I, I do think it's because. Not because I'm a woman, but it's because of how I've learned to talk, talk to people and make them feel like they're still valued even if they're up. Right. Like fail forward, it's okay, let's fail together.

[Brent]

What about like, so, like stepping backwards in a more broad picture, like the culture, like, like women in a male dominated environment and the, or those professions. Those professions are the way they are and they're dominated by men for a reason. And I'm not saying, I'm not like saying I agree with it or anything, but so like, like I had an argument once. Not an argument, a debate with a female who is. We were talking about overseas issues. Rape ran rampant in American bases. Women being raped by American soldiers or American men. And so it's, it's awful. It's horrible. And we were running through all of these, all of these situations to fix it. These programs, these safe spots, these, you know, ways to, where they walk around in groups. And at the end of the day I go, or you know how you fix it? You don't allow females. And that, that problem, that solution right there, although it's not what anybody wanted to hear and it's not fair and it's sexist. It fixes the problem. There's no more rape.

[Heather]

Well, unless they're raping each other.

[Brent]

But I don't.

[Heather]

So at the core, I mean, at the core, yes, that's an immediate solution to make sure that women do not get sexually assaulted anymore. Immediate solution, but not fair. Right. When we talk about that. So what is the problem? It's people, whether it's a man or a woman. Because men, women do it to women and men too. Right?

[Brent]

But I mean, if me and Brent are humping a zone together. That sounded pretty gay. We're working a zone together.

[Heather]

Got broke back boys over here and.

[Brent]

I now like, like we want to have our locker room men humor. And I'm asking you this general questions. I already know the answers, you know the answers. But so anybody that wants to listen, you know, we can't say what we want to say to each other if you're there mainly out of respect for you. It's not because we're like God, there's a woman here I want to be able to talk about, you know, grabbing her by the pussy. But out of respect for you, we can't say those. But if someone does slip up and we say that and they're not thinking and then now that's inappropriate. That's. What do you call it? Sexual. What do you call it?

[Heather]

Harassment.

[Brent]

Yeah. Hostile work environment.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Brent]

So that cult that by forcing this you're also forcing that too.

[Tyler]

Heather, here's again you probably feel like you're on some sort of stand here having to defend women.

[Heather]

Not at all.

[Tyler]

Good. I don't want you to feel that way.

[Brent]

They have men hear that.

[Heather]

But for the record, I really love this conversation.

[Tyler]

I do actually.

[Heather]

There are so many men that are so nervous about having this conversation and that's where all the problems start. Right.

[Tyler]

This is. It's a weird way to put it but there's sometimes only know one way to say things that's just to you and I think you respect that is the problem is you're an anomaly and you can't put you could you view yourself as you know obviously as, as a female and, and like hey like these are. I'm a female. Like this is what females are capable of. This is what females can do. This is how females react. But not all females are like you is going to be the problem. Like if all females were like you we wouldn't have this problem.

[Heather]

Not all men are like you either and if they were we wouldn't have that problem.

[Tyler]

No, you're right.

[Brent]

Complimented him and threw him off. He was like wow, you're actually right.

[Tyler]

Most men are better than me.

[Heather]

I'm not sure if that's the case.

[Tyler]

But we're talking about in this particular instance and work environment and that, that, that usually ends up being the case and we'll, we'll take it away from this like you know generalized concept to even to the with something is. Is unique to you as far as like a woman wanted to be on the SWAT team. You there, there are your one offs that could or should be on the SWAT team. But then that kind of opens it up like hey all like all females should. Should be on the SWAT team or be you know have a shot at the SWAT team. And it's. And it's just not true. So part of my. Part of my point is you're looking at it through, you know, this lens of like, I'm a female. I'm like everyone. But you're not.

[Heather]

Right. But there's some men that shouldn't be on the SWAT team, too.

[Brent]

Oh, absolutely.

[Heather]

Yeah. Yeah, but. And I know what you're saying.

[Tyler]

But you know, who agrees with that more than anyone?

[Heather]

The men.

[Tyler]

The men.

[Heather]

Oh, 100%.

[Tyler]

But there's SWAT teams all the time, and they. And they hate. Yeah, that's true. They hate guys that are on their SWAT team that they don't believe should be there and they're frustrated that they can't even fire that guy.

[Heather]

I get it. Because as a female who very much prides herself on being who I am, there's nothing I hate more than a female that shouldn't be in this profession.

[Tyler]

I believe that.

[Heather]

Right. So it's the same thing. It's like you have the George Floyd incident that happened, and everybody gangs up on Derek Chauvin and how Minneapolis did what they were doing and the training and whether it was there and all these things, and then it all comes down on all of us. Right, right. And I have this conversation with the Attorney General's office more often than not, which people don't realize because I work hand in hand with them in order to try and create some. Some more equity. That doesn't look like it's just for politics and looking good, but for me, it's like we were doing it right in Jersey as far as excessive force or non. Excessive force or appropriate means of use of force. And. And instead of, at the time, our Attorney General, who was the Attorney General at the time, stepping up and say, hey, listen, yeah, that seems like it's a problem and it should get fixed in Minnesota, in Jersey. This is what we've already done.

[Tyler]

Right.

[Heather]

Like we're already there. And that pisses me off. So just like bad or good cops don't like bad cops. Good female cops don't like bad female cops.

[Tyler]

I believe that probably more than you don't. I see. I see that over.

[Brent]

Let's. Okay, so what, you brought up politics. So let's go move into, like. We're obviously all we got. We have to not. This isn't an issue, but women in law enforcement is now a thing. Yeah, I've noticed. And this goes into the military, too. When they push women politically into positions, it's not just the woman going for tryouts. It's the pio. It's the cameras, it's the admin all running there too. And as a admin person that you are now crush, do you make it a big deal when there's something centering around a woman, or do you just go almost like you see a deer? Like, everybody relax. It's right there. Like, let it run its course. Or are there cameras? Are we like, you know.

[Heather]

No, I mean, there is a balance of both, right? And so, like, we just had CBS 2 News come in and talk about how we had a full 48 hours of only females working. And. And the guys were like, hell, yeah. This is kind of monumental history to be made. And then they moved over. But you know what we did? We turn around and we made dinner for all right. How I love that. I love that how, like, stereotypical is that. So the night before and the night after, both squads came in and they were all fed by us to say thank you. Like, thank you for recognizing that we're different but equal and that there are things that we can do here the right way. Like, let's be the example of not just hiring women to hire women, and let's get the right team to beat.

[Brent]

You've almost cracked the code.

[Heather]

I feel like I have.

[Brent]

You're almost there now. What I'm doing is I'm going to show their cards. They were like, holy shit, we just got to compliment these people and they'll make us food. You guys are the best.

[Heather]

One of the females I hired was on Next Top Level Chef or some shit.

[Brent]

Oh, wow.

[Heather]

Hell yeah. So talk about barbecue on point.

[Tyler]

So hold your surprise face. Not a big fan of feminism, but if you. I watch this video of. I wish I could remember her name off the top of my head. Almost looked it up, so I didn't sound so dumb. But it's like one of the founding, founding mothers of feminism. This video was in like the 50s, 60s, and she was a bit older at the time, and they had her come speak and she was. She was against the grain. And it was actually really refreshing. And in one aspect, because what had feminism, it had kind of turned into. I say it may have been later than that, but what feminism had turned into is a bunch of man hating females that, you know, that I can probably just stop there and kind of sum up current day feminism. And she was like, that wasn't the feminism that I started. You guys get your. You girls. You girls get excited. Now I have to paraphrase her and make it up, but that, you know, there's a female, the first female you know, CEO of a bank. Well, that's, there's nothing exciting about that to me. Men have been CEOs of a bank for years now. So we're celebrating something men have been doing for years. She's like, don't. Let's not, let's not celebrate mediocrity, which is just doing something that someone else has done. Let's do something above and beyond. Let's celebrate things. When women do things that men have never done before, that's the point of celebration. And coming from, you know, one like the founders of feminism and that's where it really started from. I respect that. I respect that a lot more. Like, I, I love that. And feminism has taken a turn.

[Heather]

That definition. You're probably a feminist, right? In, in that definition.

[Tyler]

You watch your mouth.

[Heather]

No, but like, right.

[Tyler]

That definition.

[Heather]

If a woman. Right.

[Tyler]

Yeah. If a woman was to be the first person to, the first person to circumnavigate the world. Like, yeah, like that's like that woman needs to be, needs to be praised. Like that's, that's, that's an amazing feat. But if you're going to do something a man's done a thousand times before, you know, who, who are we praising? And this is gonna. Now this is where it gets personal. Everyone agrees on that. Until it gets somewhat on a personal level.

[Heather]

Okay.

[Tyler]

You guys had a, had an all female 48 hours.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

What's there to celebrate? That there's been. Men have been doing all male 48 hour shifts across this country all the time and no one celebrates them. Them.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

You're just doing your job. And that's a, that's a, there's a double edged sword to that.

[Brent]

I agree.

[Heather]

Oh, 100. I, I agree. And some of the times when we do those things. So there's two things I'm gonna say. One, I consider myself a feminist because I think of the foundational word of feminist. I think what we deal with today is very much ultra feminism, which is not something like somebody who tells me that like, oh, like if I chose to be a stay at home mom, like that I'm doing a disservice to the women in this country. Like you can go fuck yourself. Like, no thanks. Right.

[Tyler]

It's the most amazing thing a woman can do. I mean, spare children.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

I can't do that.

[Heather]

I agree.

[Brent]

Are you saying you, are you saying that you shouldn't tell women that they shouldn't stay home?

[Heather]

I'm telling that, I'm telling you that if you're someone who believes that women should have the right to do whatever they want. You shouldn't make a woman feel bad about doing something that isn't in your wheelhouse or part of your values. Yeah. So. And then secondly, as far as celebrating those things. So when I made sergeant for the first time, I had a sue to get promoted. Very open and honest about it. And I didn't want to do it. I didn't want to be that girl. But I had two babies in 18 months, and my chief turned around, and I came out second on the list. And he dropped me to sixth after reviewing my personnel file and said I used too much sick time to having two kids. And I was like, well, that's fucked up, right? Because I worked my ass off for this promotion to get here. And so I sued, and I won, and he had to resign, and I got promoted, and there were three people that were ahead of me. And then I got made, and I was very much like, don't you fucking go up there and say that I'm the first female ever promoted. Like, don't do it. Like, you make it seem like I'm just having a box checked. I was so angry, and I was a horrible supervisor as a sergeant because I had such a fucking chip on my shoulder from that. You know, I was just like, nobody really, you know, has this belief in what I can do. And everybody thinks I just got here either because I'm a woman or I sued. And again, that was very much a me thing right here, I was assuming. And that was just something I put on myself. It wasn't what the guys were thinking that I know of. And then when I made lieutenant, somebody said to me, it isn't about celebrating that you're the first. It's that it's showing other people that it is possible because there are people, and it's obviously not you and talking to you that will push people down. Just based on, like, I. I've seen black leaders push white people down because they want to just continue to make black people or black or brown people be promoted because it's part of their thing. And that's. That's reversed, right? That's not right. So when I talk about that 48 hours, it was something to be celebrated as far as being in an environment where people felt as though they could come together and do unique things. I didn't say it's any more special. I didn't say that it was like. Because it's never been done before by men, but that's the same thing. Like when you talk about it like, like, you know, are you, when, when are you going to be happy? Like I think Ruth Bader Ginsburg said this, Somebody asked her like, are you going to be happy only when you have nine women on the Supreme Court? And she's like, well, there had been nine men, so why is it a big deal? You know, And I love that. So.

[Tyler]

Right. Yeah. And I, I love how you guys celebrated it by cooking. And it really has nothing to do with the cooking. That would do with just the act of humility and the act of, of search serving.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

And, and that's, and whether, whether it's, whether it's in your work relationship, your actual relationship, it's in a healthy position where I hey, I'm going to put your needs above mine. Like I'm going to serve you. And people can you get upset with the word serve all you want, but in what you get in return if for someone that's worth their weight is you'll get service back?

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

You know, and I'm, I don't know.

[Heather]

Why people will get upset by the word serve. Like servant leadership is specifically what we should be doing from the ground up.

[Tyler]

Absolutely. That's.

[Heather]

It's not even just me as a supervisor. Like that's the first thing I teach my rookie out of the academy. Like we have to get you leadership training now because you're asked with making decisions for people like there's no bigger act of service than helping people figure their shit out. And people might not agree with you for it, but if you, if you wait until someone gets a formal authority, a title to teach them leadership, you're doing your community to service service JV team for life.

[Tyler]

Revenge is an act of passion.

[Heather]

Vengeance is an act of justice. Injuries are revenged.

[Tyler]

Crimes are avenged. Almost a century ago, big pharmaceutical companies re engineered medical school curriculum and faculty with one goal.

[Heather]

Putting profit before progress.

[Tyler]

Anyone pushing back against the medical matrix.

[Heather]

They care for, carefully crafted, was threatened, silenced, censored, financially ruined or worse.

[Tyler]

They are the problem, we are the solution.

[Brent]

And of course we got to give a shout out to our boys in 09 holsters. Custom built ruggedized duty gear. Made in the USA for cops by cops. A Leo and veteran owned small business. They do an upgraded solutions for duty gear including cases for portable radios, body cameras, tourniquets and pretty much everything you need to carry on duty. So go to 09holsters com and use promo code ANTIHERO10ZULU9. That's ANTIHERO10Z9 and get yourself, 10% off your order. JV team for life.

[Tyler]

I was honored and enough to be the ROTC speaker at their Georgetown graduation. And my whole speech to the future leaders of officers in America were servant leadership. Servant leadership solves almost all your problems. And leaders at that look to be leaders. And they want to force their leadership down on you. And they're really leaders because they're really kind of, look at me leaders. And they're just looking for the next position. You'll never be a servant leader of that attitude. Those are the type of people who almost demand respect for you because they want respect so much. But you can't demand respect. You'll never get it. And the only way to get respect is really, is to humble yourself and serve the people underneath you, and they will give you all the respect in the world. I love that that was your. The word you used was servant leadership.

[Heather]

Yeah. I mean, that's the foundation of what I try to do every day. And I miss the mark. I do. I'm human. I'm not perfect. I never think I will be. I mean, I fuck up. I fuck up most as a parent. I mean, Jesus, I must go to bed every night saying, man, I really fucked that up today. I mean, there's four of them. I'm very much outnumbered. Right.

[Brent]

But statistically, you got to get one, right?

[Heather]

Yeah. And I mean, like, I got three girls, one boy. They're just.

[Brent]

Do they want to be cops?

[Heather]

So I think my son does. He actually wants to go to njit, which is nice, because that means I don't pay for his tuition, but he wants to do the Air Force rotc. Oh. He says, yeah. So I love that for him. He wants to be a pilot. And then I think he does. He's so funny because he's like, yeah, I probably want to be in, like, the FBI. I'm like, no, you don't. Like, you don't even know. Like, just stop. I get shipped all over the place and then deal with. No. I'm like, I don't know what you want to do. But my youngest, she's like, I either want to be a UFC fighter. I want to be a cop. Like, mom, how old are they? So 18, 17, 10, and 9.

[Brent]

Oh, wow.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

All right.

[Heather]

Yeah, I'm old as shit. I just have really great skin care.

[Tyler]

Only because we. We were told by Progress. It was. It was a great story. I do want to hear about the. Which sounds odd. Like, I want to hear about your domestic violence.

[Brent]

Tell me about the worst day in Life.

[Tyler]

Yeah, exactly. But like anything else, it's your survivor. I already love your, your, your mentality from that because you could say I was a victim of domestic violence, but you use the word survivors. That tells me almost everything right off the bat, like everything I need to know about your mentality. But horrible stories are always great for the listeners and people growing, going through it. And you get to be, you know, a, a lesson, you know, as, as, as, as all of our worst days are and should be.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

So let's, let's, let's dig into that a little bit, if you don't mind.

[Heather]

Yeah, no. So, I mean, it was a really long time ago. I went to the police academy again. I felt as though I was just lucky to get in there. And I didn't really know anything else. And I was such a baby. I was 23 years old. And our academy was mixed with all different agencies. And that's where I met my ex husband, Keith Riley. And he just, I mean, I felt like it was love. And I didn't really see all the things going on. I grew up with these parents that were like, leave it to Beaver, right? Like, dinner at six every night, church on Sunday. They never argued. There's no alcohol in my house. Like, it was literally the most vanilla childhood in my entire life. I was pretty poor, didn't know it. My parents were just great people. And so I saw love as love. And he did a really good job of faking it for a really long time. Time. And there were things that he started to do to control me that I didn't really see. Because, you know, listen, I'm, I'm this, I'm not a victim. Like, I, that's not me. I'm a cop. I should know better. And this, we're talking like 2004, right? So I still had a phone with prepaid minutes. I'm just gonna put it out there. And so he would, like, we wouldn't text, he would call. And if I didn't pick up because I was on the road, which he was very against me transferring out of Morris Sheriff's Office into Morris Township, you know, because I was only female. So apparently that was, I guess, more than I realized, an issue with his ego. And he would just, like, if I didn't pick up, he'd show up at headquarters with flowers and he'd be like, oh, I just missed you. Or I'd be like, oh, well, I got a union meeting. He's like, man, really? I didn't know that. Like, I made Dinner reservations for us. I don't know what I'm gonna do. Like, it was very much these things that kind of started to separate me. And this is the only house that we can really afford, so let's move all the way out there for more country. And, you know, my brother's a recovering drug addict. And so there was a lot of inner turmoil with our family because I felt as though my parents very much had enabled him. And then there was just a breakdown. So again, I just kept it and moved more and more away from the things that made me who I was. And then it really. Nothing was bad until literally, a switch flipped on our honeymoon. Sitting at the bar, all inclusive, Dominican Republic. Just getting liquored up, right? You got to get your money.

[Brent]

Oh, that'll help. Everything.

[Heather]

Hell, yeah. Layered up, right? I am fat and I drunk as shit every day. And sunburnt. Very sunburnt. And as we're sitting at the bar, we meet this couple from New York, and we just all started talking. Keith gets up to go to the bathroom. His wife gets up to go to the bathroom. And now we're alone at the bar, me and this other guy. And we're laughing as Keith comes back, and all of a sudden, his face just changes. And I was like, what's. What is wrong? He's like, we just gotta go back to the room. I'm thinking, he's sick. Something's wrong. And I was like, okay, nice to meet you. And this guy goes, oh, she's great. Congratulations. She's beautiful. Congrats. He's like, yeah, thanks. And as we're walking back, I go, go, I'm being an asshole. Like, what the fuck's your problem, bro? Like, we're on our honeymoon, and he takes me by the throat, and he throws me against the wall. And he's like, I could kill you down here and nobody will find you. And I'm like, what the fuck? Whoa. So somebody walks by. Like, one of the workers walks by. He lets me go. We go back to the room. Like, I don't have international calling. I don't mean that shit. I'm like, what am I gonna do in the Dominican Republic? And he just passes out drunk. And so I laid there, and then I eventually passed out drunk. And when I woke up in the morning, it was like nothing happened. He was. It was like I was in my head. I thought I made it up. I thought I dreamt it or had a nightmare. Like, that was gaslighting, my first experience of it. And then we tried to get pregnant? We did right away. And I got pregnant with Amber, and I was kind of like a walking sign of ownership then. So there wasn't a lot of. There wasn't any physical abuse at all, but it was obviously mental and emotional. And he was an alcoholic, which I didn't really know much about. And after Amber's born In January of 07, we're getting ready to, you know, christen her. And I'm, like, doing stuff around the house. And he comes in and he's drunk, and I don't know it. And I said something that pissed him off. And again, he takes me by the neck and he throws me against the wall. And he. He's like, just. He's, like, yelling in my face, and I start to cry. He lets me go. And he runs to our bedroom, which was next to Amber's bedroom. And what do we do? As cops or military, Whatever. We run towards danger, right? And I want to make sure she was okay. And as I run in, I look to the right where our bedroom is. Her door's closed to the left. I look to the right, and he's sitting on the edge of our bed with a shotgun under his chin. And so I run in there, and I start to de. Escalate the situation before we even really knew that de escalation was a word, right? And I'm like, please don't do this. Blah, blah, blah. And he's like, I'm a horrible person. I can't believe I put my hands on you again. Like, I know I have problems. Like, my mom died when. Which she did. Died when? When he was young. And he said something horrible. He alleges his dad used to beat him. He alleged he was molested by a priest. All these things to suck me back in, right? He's like, I will go to. I will go to counseling. I'm so sorry. I'm like, please don't do this. And then so we made a pact. He's like, I'm gonna stop drinking. I'm gonna go to counseling. And he's like. And I was like, well, one more thing. There's no more guns in the house at all. Like, all our hunting shit's gonna go to your dad's. And aren't you guys cops? Both cops at the time, yeah.

[Brent]

You gotta have at least two guns.

[Heather]

No, we kept him at headquarters.

[Brent]

Oh, really?

[Heather]

You're not bringing him home until I could trust him again, right? Like, he's an alcoholic. He needs help, and I don't really know much about it. And I was embarrassed. I had, you know, being in an agency, I was the only woman. I had really no connection. Connections to the men I worked with. They didn't want me there. Those rumors from the other agency followed me. So the girlfriends and wives hated me because they thought I was a little fucking badge bunny. No offense. Your men aren't that hot. And, you know, I just. It started to get a little bit better. But I think what a lot of victims of domestic violence don't talk about is that if you're being physically abused and emotionally abused, most of the time, you're probably being sexually abused, too. And I'm not talking about, like, a violent rape or anything like that. I'm talking about, like, it's used. Used as a method of power and control. And so at that moment, I felt that I had to have sex with him in order to, like, appease the situation. And I got pregnant with Hunter. And so I was like, here I am stuck. Like, I knew I kind of had to do something for myself, but I didn't know who to talk to. I was embarrassed.

[Tyler]

And did he. Did he follow through on his commitments to go to counseling, drinking?

[Heather]

Okay, he did until I didn't realize he was doing it again. So we were completely opposite shifts. And talk about a failure on my part to, you know, really trust myself. I don't know if you guys have ever been in relationships with anybody's an alcoholic or had a friendship, but it's like you get two different people all the time, and. And they make you very much question yourself and. Because you don't want to believe the bad in someone. And so here I am pregnant again. So there's no physical abuse. It's. He's doing really well. And now he's getting very stressed at work. Now we have two kids. You know, we buy outside of our means because we know we're going to get pay increases over the next couple years. We're working all this overtime. Our kids are 12 months apart, and there's all these things. He's afternoons on day shift. We're never seeing each other. So we're just crippling each other in the relationship. And I can see he's getting stressed, and it's not great. And October 16th of 2008, apparently he had gotten served with paperwork saying he was being charged with excessive use of force and planting evidence on somebody. And I didn't know any of this was going on. He made it seem like he was the greatest cop in the world. He got. Got like, officer of the year he two or three drug busts, like a shift on eight hours. He seemed like a superhero cop. And he came home and he was drunk, and he slammed open the door and he's like, I'm done. And I was like, good, because I think I'm done, too. Like, I'm exhausted. And that was a very rough, innocent.

[Brent]

You're done. He's done in the relationship.

[Heather]

I thought so. I thought so.

[Tyler]

Okay.

[Heather]

That's how it came. I mean, I was asleep, and when he came in and he. He's like, I'm done. And I was like, yeah, you know what? I think I am too. I'm just. I'm exhausted. Exhausted. And wrong thing to say because he grabbed me by the hair and he pulled me out into the living room and he beat the shit out of me for, like four hours. I mean, like, yeah, he. He broke my jaw. He bit my face. He strangled me twice till I got it. Went unconscious. I urinated myself. He took his belt off and said, I'm gonna whip you on the legs because if I allow you to live, at least it's October and you can wear jeans and nobody will see it. He tried to make me kill myself. He put a knife in my hand, said I have to to make this look like a suicide. And the whole time he was like, if the kids wake up, I'm not just going to kill you, I'm going to kill them too. And so I had to take the whole thing, like, quiet. And it was very surreal. And I mean, now me being who I am now, like, I look back and I'm like, I can't believe, like, I allowed that to happen or I was ever in that situation, because it just doesn't even feel like me. But it was just being berated for four hours. I mean, like, headbutted me, bit my face again, like. And the whole time he had his gun in his waistband, and here I am, and I'm like, do I grab it? Do I not grab it? It's a Beretta. I'm only used to a Glock. I'm second guessing everything. He's stronger than me, right? All these things. What if it goes off and it hits the kids? So I'm like, I'm just gonna take it. I'm just gonna take it.

[Brent]

I don't think berate is the right word.

[Heather]

I think tortured, yeah, definitely. And so it ends with him giving me the phone, and he's like, you have to call out of work. If I let you live, you can't Go to work like this for the next three days. And that was a Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I was supposed to go into work. And I was like, all right. So I called dispatch. I'm like, hey, it's Heather. The kids and I are sick. I'm going to be out for the whole weekend. Can you put me out? And as Jack, he's like, yeah, no problem. Feel better. And I hung up the phone. I was like, I just gave him five days to bury my body if he's going to kill me. That's the thought in my head. Like, how did I get in this fucking situation? And all I'm thinking about is my kids. And I live in the boonies, so nobody could hear me even if I did scream. But. And as, like, that happens, he goes, now call your dad. My dad's my best friend. I'm like, I'm not calling my dad. I was like, because he's either gonna come here, he's gonna call the cops. I'm like, I'm not gonna do it. If you're a coward and you're gonna be a coward, just fucking do it. And so he pulls the gun out and he punches me and kicks me in the stomach. I fall to the ground. He takes the gun out, he racks around in and he puts a pillow over my face. And he pushed the end of the gun, the barrel against the pillow. And he started to pull the trigger. And I started to hear that creak, like, going back. And I thought I died. I thought he shot me, me. Until all of a sudden, like, it felt like forever, but it obviously was not. It was like a second or two. He falls down next to me and just starts crying. And he's got the gun in his hand, laying next to me. And I'm. I'm laying here broken and, like, bloody and bruised and in my urine, ripped clothes, just praying to God that my kids will sleep through the night and that he passes out drunk. Because I had an 8 month old and a 20 month old and neither of them had slept through the night consistently. Both of them, one night yet, right? So I was like, if they wake up, this is. This is fucking over. So I'm like praying to God, I'm like, please, I'll leave. Please, I'll leave. Just get me out of this. Make sure my kids are safe. I don't know. I'm gonna do it. I don't care if I lose my job. Like, that's what I'm saying. Because I had never reported it before. Like, nobody knew who was Gonna believe me. And, you know, so as he falls asleep, he sleeps for like four hours. And then the kids wake up. It's like 7:30 in the morning. He wakes up, he doesn't really remember what happened. And I just started a safety plan and I got him out of the house. He took my keys with him. I got him to go to the grocery store. Cop mode set in. I made a laundry list of shit that he would never be able to find. And as he's there, I start picking up 911. And I keep hanging up. I finally pick up and this dispatcher picks up and she's like, 91 1, where's your emergency? And I was like, listen, I'm an off duty cop. My husband's an off duty cop. We got in a fight last night. I'm like, can you please just send me a cop? She's like, well, can I ask questions? And I was like, I'm on a recorded line. I'm not telling you anything else. Just send me a copy cop. And I was like, he's at the Acme. Please just send me someone. And she's like, okay. She's like, does anybody there need medical assistance? And man, what a brilliant chick, man, because. Or brilliant dispatcher, like, just brilliant. So I'm like, that's not important right now. I didn't say no. And she must have heard that. And I was. She's like, all right, well, since you're both cops, I have to ask, like, where are the guns? And I guess like, my voice was like, well, I know my guns. I have no idea where his gun is. He had it last night. And I guess like me rambling, like, set off things. And then she sent the cops to the Acme and had him, had him placed in custody there. And he was charged with aggravated assault, possession of a weapon, two weapons, the gun and the knife, criminal restraint, terroristic threats and harassment. Went to jail on bail, and his father was the chief of police of a neighboring town and not only paid his bail so he could be out, but hired a private investigator to follow me around.

[Tyler]

And so why on the 911 call did you we, like, like, did you not want to say things because it was in a recorded line. What was your mindset around that?

[Heather]

I think in the moment, at that moment, I almost felt like I was in control of what came out of my mouth. And that was the only thing I was in control of. And I was worried that once I put those words out there on a recorded line, like they were there right and it wasn't like I was going to change the narrative. I just was really trying to protect myself. And I was so worried about losing my job. I was worried about going on the rubber gun squad, not being able to work overdrive. Like I knew I was about to be a single mom. Like there was all that these things just going through my head and so that's why I did it. And so. Good question though. Nobody's ever asked me that. And so we go to court and I'm treated like shit by the prosecutor's office. They basically tell me that I'm an asshole for wanting to let go of the restraining order. But there was a no contact order in place already. And in New Jersey, when you go for a final restraining order on the civil end of it, on my end, I would have had to go to trial with him. And I was like, why am I to do that? When the judge put a no contact order in place on, on his, on his charges, Like, I don't need to go through both. And so he goes to Marworth for his, you know, 28 day inpatient and he starts sending me letters violating the no contact order. They won't violate him. I'm so sorry, baby girl. Like, I shouldn't have done this to you. Like, I know I have all these demons and when I drink, my anger turns into rage. Like apologize to my parents in a separate, like all this shit, right? And so I'm giving them prosecutor's office and they're doing nothing thing. So we end up going to grand jury and he decides he wants to testify at grand jury. I don't know if you've ever had a defendant testify at grand jury, but that doesn't really ever happen because it's very much. There's more hearsay allowed, all this. So he gets up there set of balls, his right being the narcissistic psychopath he is, and he goes, I didn't do that to her. I wasn't even home when she called 911. She must have done it to herself.

[Brent]

And then that was after the I love you baby.

[Heather]

Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The I love you baby. And I'm so sorry, baby girl. Yeah, yeah. So he leaves, I go back in the next day and the prosecutor brings out all the letters and he's like, is this true? And I was like, no, he did all this to me. Like, here's all the letters. And so the grand jury are actually turned around and upped his charges to kidnapping and three counts of perjury for Lying in grand jury, which was awesome. So here he is. Hi, baby. Are you like an emotional support dog right now? You're beautiful. So that he was facing like 75 years in like, prison. Prison, right? 75 years in prison. And the prosecutor calls me and says, listen, we're gonna give him a plea deal. He's willing to plead guilty. You know, this is the first time you ever reported it. He was an officer. He passed a psych. He was under the influence. He's been following all his release orders. I was like, all right, well, what kind of plea deal? They're like, we're gonna give him six months. And I was like, what? I'm like, six months? Okay, all right. And now you want to know why.

[Tyler]

Victims don't come for essentially a timeout for adults at this level.

[Heather]

Well, he won't be able to be a cop again. I'm like, oh, great. He'll just be able to, you know, be a co parent and all this. So he went in for six months. He did two months in one week, time served in good behavior. He came out and the no contact order wasn't there anymore because he served his sentence. So now there's no restraining order in place. I'm sleeping with my gun under my pillow. I'm working night shift. I'm poor as I had to file bankruptcy. I can't afford daycare, so I'm working at night and a during the day. No wonder I had no great bonds with the guys I worked with because I was a fucking asshole. And talk about being a failure as a parent. Like, I wasn't thriving at all. I was surviving. And I had to co parent with him because the family court judge told me that she couldn't hold him accountable for what he did to me. When it came to the relationship with my kids, I was like, even though.

[Brent]

Your kids were there?

[Heather]

Even though my kids were there, yeah. Horrible. So I co parented with him. I was his first wife. He ended up with three others. All of us are part of a group chat called the ex wives club now. And, you know, he just wasn't great to my kids. But it was always hard. Like, the criminal justice system is such a justice system only for criminals. It has nothing to do with protecting victims at all. Like, that's our job as first responders. And it's really, really disturbing to see that. So very much my purpose in what I do now, in telling my story and re victimizing myself when I talk about it, is to make sure that other people know that they're not alone, because it's our job as first responders. Like, we're the ones that are the justice for the victims. Right. Not the corporate courts. They're too busy. They don't have that bond. And, you know, it all ended in. During COVID He told my oldest daughter that since she got him sick, that she would have to realize that if he died, it was her fault. And she's like, well, I don't. She comes downstairs, she's like, I don't want to see him anymore. I don't feel good when I'm with him. She was 14. And then my son still decided to go. So there was that, like, dynamic back and forth because that was, you know, his hero. His father was his hero.

[Tyler]

Right.

[Heather]

And I wasn't allowed to tell my kids what happened. My son found out doing a project in second grade. When you do your family tree.

[Brent]

Wait, the court said you couldn't tell him?

[Heather]

Yeah. You've been divorced, Right. You know, in your civil agreement, it says you can't talk badly about the other parents.

[Brent]

Can't tell the truth.

[Heather]

Can't tell what? You can't. Because. So he kept opening up all these things against me, ias all this stuff. Every time the kids would have bruises from, like, sports, D.C. pNP when I'd show up with my gun on my hip for a custody exchange, and he felt away, he would say that I was harassing him, and he felt intimidated. So it was just a lot and so very manipulative. Oh, 100%. Use the system to continually abuse me afterwards. And it just. It got to the point where it was like, the kids will know, and I'll do as much as I can to protect them. And he found out doing a family tree because you can't find my name because I'm a victim and I'm protected. But you can find Keith Riley, who tried to kill his wife in their home. And so.

[Tyler]

Oh, how he figured that out.

[Brent]

In second grade, he had to do a family tree.

[Heather]

He googled it on his iPad.

[Tyler]

He googled it. Yeah.

[Heather]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tyler]

How did that get. So how did. How did he bring that up to you?

[Heather]

The teachers called me. So he. You know, my kids had a lot of behavioral problems. Like, my daughter suffered from a lot of depression and anxiety because of a relationship with her dad and would hide under tables and, you know, try balance and being a cop who doesn't want to be looked at as, like, the chick, Right? Like, where you're like, well, how do I be a good mom? But Also, be a good cop and call out sick because she's doing this. Or my son was undiagnosed ADHD and non medicated. When he's non medicated, he's aggressive like his dad. And I'm like, how do I balance getting a call from the school all the time and then having this and not sleeping and I didn't want to be seen, like the girl, mom who shouldn't be a cop. Like, that was that balance in my head. And so it was a really difficult time. So we ended up going to mandatory counseling. I had to go for an emergency, like, cease of his rights. Unless they were like, what's that word? Somebody's watching at the same time? Monitored. What? Yeah, yeah, overseen. You know what I'm saying? Thank you. Thank you. The man in the corner, you're there. And so, you know, then that all got worked out, and then he was back to seeing them. And then he chose to believe, not necessarily believe, my ex husband, but, like, it was just easier to, like, he wanted that love. And so for a very long time, I loved my son, but I did not like him at all. And it was really hard to be his mother. And as we transition further, I end up getting a call the day before Easter, actually almost three years ago to the day. And it's Keith. And he's like, your son's being a douchebag. And I was like, well, I know he's a douchebag to me all the time, but he's never to you, so what's going on? And he's like, I told him to. I had to go do something. I wanted him to pack because Carrie and I got divorced and blah, blah, blah. And Braylon's here and he's acting like a little. I smacked him on the back of the head. And now he's saying I beat him and he doesn't want to come here anymore. I was like, all right, we'll put him on the phone. He's like, well, he's cleaning now, so let's let him be. And I'm like, bro, you got an hour? I go, or I'm calling the cops for a welfare check. And he's like, I don't know why you have to be like that. I'm like, I don't know past presidents, buddy. And by this time, I'm like, I don't give a shit when it comes to him.

[Tyler]

Any idea?

[Heather]

Yeah, any idea? Yeah, I didn't marry him for his smarts, but so then he doesn't let my call Me. So an hour later, I text him, and I was like, where the. Is Hunter? And I was like, where's this phone? And he's like, I took it from being an. I go. I pay that. Give it back. So now Hunter calls me, and I hear him standing right next to him as Hunter's talking to me. And we have code words, right? Like, separate code words for whatever. So I'm, like, waiting for Hunter to say something. I'm like, you want me to come get you? Like, I know I'm supposed to get you tomorrow. He's like, no, no, everything's good. I overreacted. I want to spend the night with Braylon, you know? I know tomorrow, like, is Easter. Like, I want to see her open her. You know, Easter basketball, find Easter eggs. I'm like, all right, man. Like, if you need me, let me know. Like, I'll come get you. He's 14 at the time now, and he's like, all right, I love you, Mom. And I was like, what? Right? Like, this kid has not told me he loved me in, like, six years. So I'm like, either some went down or he's trying to piss off his dad. I'm like, all right, bro, I love you, too. See you tomorrow. I'm, like, on cloud nine as a mom. So the next day, I pick up Hunter, and he is just tired, and he's wearing a sweatshirt, and he, like, sits down next to me and falls asleep next to him. I'm like, man, this kid was up all night, you know? And now I'm starting to have this mom guilt set in. And then he wakes up from, like, a nap that he fell asleep, and he's hot. He takes off his sweatshirt, and there's this abrasion on his arm. And I Now I get into, like, rage mode. I was like, bro, because, you know, teenagers and their parents call each other bro. And I was like, what happened to your arm? And he just, like, looks up at me. I was like, is that from your dad? And he, like, wouldn't say them. Like, dude. I'm like, we need to talk about this. And he's like, not now. He's like, I'm safe now. He says, I'm safe now, and we'll talk about it later. Let's just let the girls have a. Have a good Easter. And I was like, all right, so I'm ready to kill somebody. And now he starts, like, saying he doesn't feel well. We're outside. Easter egg hunts over. I'm like, well, now we're Talking about it. And as we talk about it, he's like, dad was drunk. He passed out. He wanted me to clean. He woke up too soon. And when I didn't have it done, he threw me down the stairs and started beating the out of me. And I was like, this is gonna die. Like, I'm like, I don't even care. I walk back in, I'm like, matt, I'm like, all the paperwork is here at the house. I go, mom, dad, thank you for my last dinner. From behind, from out. From behind bars. I go, I gotta go. I'm like, I'll see you later. And I, you know, checked that my gun was loaded, and I had every intention of going to find him. And that's very honest. And I don't really give a. And at that point, Hunter's like, no, mom, I gotta go to the hospital. Like, I don't feel well. And I was like, oh, it's this guy's lucky day. So I call up a friend of mine who's a trooper. I'm like, does he still live in this town? I go, you need to send me a lawyer or send me a trooper, because I need a report now. I was like, it's going to be one or the other. So he sends this poor little baby cop trooper to the hospital. This guy walks in. I go, this is what you're gonna do. And I'm like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I don't want to be accused of leading him. Get it? Like, I'm not even inside. He's like, are you on the job? I'm like, you think, buddy? And so he goes in with Hunter, and he comes out, he like, listen. He's like, the doctor just left, too. Your son has a concussion, broken ribs, bruised ribs, abrasions, restraint marks on his wrist. And I'm like, I. I'm just seeing red. I'm like, I. Like, it's one thing to hurt me, but don't hurt my fucking kids. Yeah, it's a whole, like, I'll kill you, right? And so I was like, okay. So I turn on her. I go, listen, It's. You're the victim now. You're. It's your choice what you want to do. I go, but I'm going to make sure reports are filed and this son of bitches is put in jail. And he's like, no, no, no. I. He's like, I need to make sure that this doesn't happen to anyone else again. He's like, the only reason I stay Last night is because I didn't want Braylon to be alone. His little sister, like, this kid at 14 years old. Right. So as we're, like, driving and talk about relationships and how they change and the ability to make people feel as though they're safe like that, he said the greatest thing to me, which was also a shitty thing. At the same time, we're in the car, and he, like. He's like, mom. And I was like, what? He's like, I'm so sorry. And I think he's, like, saying sorry because he's like, got that victim blaming mindset right then. And I was like, what are you. You sorry for, dude? You didn't do anything wrong. He's like, no, I'm sorry I made you feel like I never believed you. And I was like, well, right. Like this kid's been going through it too, on his end. And so we get him charged. The judge is like, ah, we don't think you're, you know, a threat to the public, so we're gonna release you. So he's released, no contact with any of us. Week later, he violates the no contact order.

[Tyler]

Right.

[Heather]

Prosecutor's office is like, ah, could have just been a butt dial. When he called you, I was like, are you kidding me? Like. Like, he has to prove that it was a butt dial, not me as the victim.

[Brent]

Yeah.

[Heather]

And so I get a restraining order.

[Tyler]

And this happened a second time. This isn't the first time. This is the second time it's happened.

[Heather]

Sixteen years.

[Brent]

Yeah. Is it. Is it the same court system or a different.

[Heather]

It's different.

[Brent]

Yeah.

[Heather]

Yeah. Because I'm. Yeah. In Union county, so I'm losing my shit. And I, like, I know the law. I am like, if there's one thing I'm an expert at, it's New Jersey domestic violence law. Like, I'm not the person to be questioned on it, because I've just had to deal with it so much, much. And I become such an advocate. Like, I'm just not the person. So I'm literally telling the prosecutor's office and these judges that they're wrong. And they're like, yeah, well, this is our decision. I'm like, all right, well, I'll follow up tomorrow with whoever I need to. But I end up getting. The one municipal judge was like, listen, I can understand why you feel harassed. I'm gonna also give you a restraining order, which gave me the ability to also get a search warrant for weapons because he still hunted, and he had a crossbow. And so they went and they found him, and he was high as a kite, drunk, in possession of the crossbow. They arrest him again.

[Tyler]

Is he still in law enforcement this time? Okay.

[Heather]

He was never allowed to be after.

[Tyler]

After that. Yeah, just make sure.

[Heather]

Yeah, yeah. And so they arrest him again and they say, well, maybe we should have told you that you couldn't get drunk while you're out on bail. And maybe we should have told you that a crossbow is a weapon and you can't be in possession. And they let him out again.

[Brent]

Oh, my God.

[Heather]

So in that meantime, I don't hear from him ever again for a while. And I guess he ends up meeting a girl who's like legitimately mentally disabled, right? And this poor girl, he starts dating her. Two weeks later, marries her. And six weeks into the marriage, he gets the plea agreement for a year for what he did to my son, which is still not enough. And he says to her, I can't go to jail again. I'm gonna make the cops kill me. Call 91 1. As they walk through the door, I'm gonna stab you in the stomach with these scissors and this knife. So she's like, please don't, I'm pregnant. She wasn't, thankfully. But smart chick, right? Gets out of the house, calls 91 1. He's now a barricaded subject. And the crazy thing about law enforcement is he's in this town where the person who shows up on scene is a sergeant that I teach with like six times a year, that's close friend, the detective. Also the guy on the team's unit who asks me to help save his life so they don't have to kill him, is the same person that responded to my DV at our house and has become a good friend. There's like all these circles, right? And that's why I teach people, especially women, don't break bridges. Like, don't do it. Cause you never know when you're gonna need somebody in this long ass career.

[Tyler]

Absolutely.

[Heather]

And. And so the state police take the side of the house off. They put him in custody again. High, under the influence, in possession of weapons. He goes to go to a Zoom meeting a week later. And the fucked up thing that you guys don't. I didn't even say this. He was arrested in Sussex County. I work in Morris County. Sussex county jail is closed. Morris county has their contract. So every time he was arrested, he was put in the jail that was in my town in Morris Township. Every time he was released, he walked into fucking traffic, got hit by a car. I Was working and would have had to respond. Right. Wouldn't have done shit. Would have fucking pissed on him, probably in the middle of the street. But I would have had to respond. And so when I knew he wasn't getting out, I called the ward, and I'm like, I'm not asking for a professional favor, but he can't be here. There's a restraining order. There's no contact order. My son comes here for the Junior Police academy.

[Brent]

Legally, he can't be here.

[Heather]

Yeah, like, he can't be here. And he's like, yeah, no problem. We'll move him. So they move him to Bergen. On Friday, we have the Zoom call for his bail release hearing. Gangs, I don't know if you guys know this, but Jersey doesn't have bail anymore. It's just like a hearing where they decide whether or not you're a threat. And you either stay in or you go back out. Out. It's ridiculous. And for good intentions, I feel like it was put in there. So the people who do smaller crimes are held to the same standard as someone who's, like, a billionaire and, like, a child pedophile, where they can't buy their way out. Right. I get the foundation.

[Tyler]

It just.

[Heather]

It's up. It doesn't work. And so he gets. He's on camera. He sees me on camera on the Zoom, and he goes off with his attorney, comes back, he says, I want to waive my right to be released. And I'm like, good, he's going to be in jail for now. And that was a Friday. And on Sunday morning, I got a call on December 11th of 2022 that he had hung himself in his jail, and he was dead in his jail cell.

[Tyler]

Good.

[Heather]

Hell, yeah, good. But.

[Tyler]

So far, I heard that. I was like, oh, no. That's my reaction.

[Heather]

Yeah. And you know what? Initially, that's mine. Like, I started to cry because I was so happy. It's. And there were so many things that I was doing that I didn't realize. Like, you know, they always say, watch your six. Right? Like, when you walk out, like, stop. Stop. Having the same habits. Don't go out the same door. When you leave the pd, like, always look around. Like, you never know what's going to go happen. I realized after he killed himself that I was always looking for him.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Heather]

Everywhere. And I didn't even realize it. You know, I was always worried he was going to be somewhere. Like, listen, we talk about physical fitness and standards. I had a really hard time because of stress. Night shift, all These things. I went undiagnosed with Lyme's disease. I'm a diabetic. I was like £230 in 2021 before I got diagnosed as a diabetic and having Lyme's disease. And then I started taking all the things to, to you know, work back. But I'll tell you what helped him. Being gone out of my life, right? Like I was able to like relax and like, and, and it's amazing what mental health advocacy and non stress and working in the right environment and putting yourself can do because, you know, and being able to do jiu jitsu and have a normal like basis. But the one thing that sucks is walking downstairs two weeks before Christmas and telling my kids that they weren't good enough for him to make a choice. You know, the.

[Tyler]

What may seem like a unfair or, you know, unemotional question, but you know, we, we break down cop videos all the time. Like hey, like what? For the right reasons, right? Like not judging a police officer by what he did. That police officer made the decision he made when he made it. And that police officer has to stand, has to stand by by that with the, with the time they had to make that decision decision. And yeah, and I stand by most of those decisions. We break down those videos with the intent of, hey, if anyone else is in this predicament, you don't have to make a split second decision. You've already thought about this situation and you can make a better decision when it's not split second. And I'm sure you've done this, but I doubt anyone's ever asked you this publicly. Or maybe they have. What do you feel like you could have done different? Looking back, what should you have done at one point for anyone who's listening is maybe in the same situation, it doesn't have to learn the same mistakes you do. What do you think you should have done different?

[Heather]

Stopped caring so much about what everybody else thought. That was the foundation of everything that went wrong in my relationship with him. I stayed too long because I was worried people were gonna think I was that cop. I had the reputation of being with a Riley that I had never met. So here I am now, not making it through a year and a half of my marriage. I worried about whether or not my job would support me, whether they would believe me. I cared too much about what everybody else would think. I didn't have enough faith in myself to survive it.

[Tyler]

Yeah. Without it caring so much what other people thought changed. Your changes got. Got inside your decision making. You know, cycle and changed decisions you made not based off what was best for yourself, but what other people thought of you. I know it sounds crazy, but we all do it. We all do it.

[Brent]

Yeah.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

That's kind of an interesting answer, actually. Maybe not be. I thought maybe you're going to go, like, more like, specific. He did this. I should have done that. You went with more of a mindset answer.

[Heather]

Yeah, because I've done so much work, right? Like, I felt like such a victim in that four and a half hours where I didn't realize. And I've done a lot of work. I've done emdr. I have a phenomenal therapist. And I'll say to anybody who doesn't have a therapist, like, find the right one. Finding a therapist is like dating, right? You're not. It really is. Like, don't put all your out there on that first date, because then you feel like you're bound to that person. Because nobody wants to reiterate all the bullshit in their life. So treat it like a first date. Treat it like a business. You know, give a little bit of yourself so you have a foundation to find out if maybe a second date is appropriate. But, you know, when you find the right therapist, it's everything. Like, my first therapist after this happened, I kind of felt like I had to go. Like, I should go. And I wasn't in a space to, like, go through everything that happened back in 2008, 2009. And the guy was like, oh, well, what happened in your childhood to let you be in a relationship like this? And I was like, peace out, asshole. See ya. That's not it.

[Tyler]

Right.

[Heather]

And so when I found Dr. Barker and we started, like, really getting into it, I finally felt like I was in a place where I was never judged. Like, he was always like, yeah, I totally get why. And. And listen, I'm open and honest about it now. There have been times where I've thought about killing myself and I've. I've never had a plan. But when you're so beat down mentally and you feel like you're doing everything right, and it just keeps coming back at you. And, you know, we talked in the beginning about the only part that sucks being a female in uniform is having to take off that whole gun belt to take a piss, right? Because I don't use a shoei. But when you do that, I don't even know what it is. That's how much I don't use it. And as you take the gun belt off and I throw it up on the counter and sit down. Like, the barrel, the gun would be looking at me and I'd be like, man, would it just be easier? Would he be maybe nicer to the kids? Like, would they not have to worry about the debt we're in right now, or me driving a car that I have to like, like roll through up to a red light because I'm worried it's gonna stall? Like. Or me not eating or, you know what cheesing stuff. Like, would it just be easier if I took my own life? And, you know, thankfully I got to a point where I had a really good circle around me. I had a murder suicide I went to and some shit went down. And my one friend who's now the chief of police in Morris Plains was like, fuck. I'm like, what, Mike? He's like, dude, that's somebody's daughter. I'm like, bro, that could have been me. And that just, like, popped out of my mouth. I'm like, I think I gotta go back to therapy. What do you think, Mike? And he's like, yeah, I think that's a good idea. Through emdr, I realized that there are so many things in that situation that I did do to protect myself. Like telling him, no, I'm not going to kill myself, was me knowing deep down that he was just a coward and he wanted someone else to kill him. Right?

[Brent]

Yeah. I was gonna ask you what, looking back on it now, why don't you think he never actually killed you? But that kind of answers my question, is that he was cowardly.

[Heather]

I don't even think he's a coward. I just think he hated himself, himself so much. He just. You know, his mom died when he was really young, 15 or 16 years old. His dad and him didn't have a great relationship. You know, he obviously had mental health issues. It wasn't. You can't talk about that. He had a huge ego, lots of pride. I definitely think he was a narcissist and. And probably had some psychopathic tendencies in him. I feel like if you do that to anybody, not in self defense, you are. But I really just think that he wanted to die. And he was using me as a catalyst and the other women because it made him feel stronger and to be in control of things when he was so out of control. And so I don't think he could bring himself to do it because he just wanted to die. He didn't really want everybody else to die. He wanted people to suffer. But I don't think he was there and Talk about that mindset. Right? I, you know, he's dead. I can't be angry at him anymore. I hated him for a really long time. I don't hate him anymore. I can't. He's dead. It doesn't. The only person that's affecting is me. I love him very much because he gave me two of my foremost beautiful gifts. You know, and you said in the beginning, you know, it's hard for me to say that I'm interested in hearing what was your worst day? Like, I don't even look at it like that. Like, I actually think that that was a gift. Like, I wouldn't want to go through it again. But, man, I love my life right now. I love who I am. I love my mindset, the positivity that I have in my life, the people that I can positively affect to leave relationships that don't serve them or, or realize that they should be their own number one priority. Because if your cup is empty, you can't fill up anybody else's cups. Like. And without me going through that, I wouldn't be where I am right now. So I just, I look at it as like a gift because if not, I'm just going to hate my life all over again.

[Tyler]

I love that you said that. It's, it's. It goes right on the subject that, that I want to talk about is everything you just said is, is what I would have said to him or anyone in that situation where like, oh, well, my mom died early. This happened to me. That happened to me. If you're looking for the negativities in life. Life, you'll always find it. He could have equally found all the reasons in life to act like a good man, yet he focused on the reasons that his life sucks and what's driving him to be a bad man. And if you focus on that, if you're looking for it, you'll find it. And mindset is weird. And people. You'll say, it's not that easy. No, no, it's. It, it actually is that easy. You do control your mind.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

You do get to decide on what you think about and, and your outlook on life. Life and the other. I think it's kind of small, but, you know, when we talk about these things, talking about things you can control and it's not kicking you while you're down, because I think you would agree on it. But a lot of things you said had to do with financial decisions. And life is stressful enough. Marriage is stressful enough. Being a parent is Stressful enough. And things we can control are financial decisions. And it weighed so heavily on you. And there is a point at some, like, you're in the. It's. You may feel like it's too late. Like, I've already made these financial decisions, like, how do I get out of it the other day? That just, again, comes with it. If you're so deep into it, it may take a little bit of time to get out of it, but you have to change, you know, the way you're doing things. And for any young listener out there, early in your career, making financial decisions is one of the most important things you can do in life. We talk about it like being an entrepreneur. You'll never be an entrepreneur if you're. If you're strapped with debt. You'll always have a high stress life. And it is completely decisions you made about your own finances that put yourself there.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Brent]

I have one question that's serious, and it's been weighing on my mind this entire time.

[Heather]

Okay.

[Brent]

Is the mentally retarded ex wife in the group chat?

[Tyler]

No, actually, I thought that same thing for a second.

[Heather]

Like, no, you know what's crazy is that. So wife. And none of the wives ever believe me, right? Because his excuse was, if I really did all that, would I have only gotten six months? Super. Like, yeah, I would probably believe that too, if I wasn't in law enforcement and that I made it up. And how would that happen? But ex wife is number two. Didn't last very long. And she immediately came to me after. She's like, I'm so sorry I didn't believe you. Like, And I was like, I get it. I was there. And then ex wife number three, Carrie. You know, my kids have a half sibling with. With her, and she wouldn't really talk to me. She had had two miscarriages with him. And I blatantly outright told her at a custody exchange. I'm like, before they had Braylon, I'm like, this might be a sign that, like, you should not have kids with this man. And she. Then I. Then she never talked to me again. Right. Because she knew it was the truth. Like, again, I have hard conversations. I don't give a shit. And, you know, she'll come and she'll be like, you know, I'm. I'm glad I did, because she's Braylon. But she's like, maybe I could have walked away, but she was just as controlled, too. But she's in the group chat. The last one just was for the first couple days, she Was like, I'm so glad I have you guys. And I can't believe this. And then she turned into woe is me. I'm the widow.

[Tyler]

I'm the this.

[Heather]

And I was like, look at me.

[Tyler]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Heather]

I was like, you and your suspended driver's license can stay up in the boonies, right? Don't call me. Yeah, no. So she's not. She's been excommunicated. She didn't make it long enough.

[Tyler]

Back to women in law enforcement, I had not. I'd like both of your opinions on this. And we. We. You already touched on. Women do have. Play on their strengths, you know, and their weaknesses. Know their weaknesses. And the same thing for men out of police officer. Just not too long ago, we were talking about women in law enforcement, and he said that he believes there should be because there's now more women in the workforce. Like some of the older structures of certain jobs maybe need to be relooked at. And one of them is the amount of time and the career path to being a detective. And that he believes women would be better detectives and getting a restructuring that. To where that doesn't have to be such a senior position. I already know the argument about that, that, like, what makes you a good detective is. Is your experience. Like there's. There's that argument to it.

[Heather]

There can be. But.

[Tyler]

But what. What do you think about that as far as opening that up, realizing and playing on the strengths of. Of our force and. And re. Looking at the. The career path to detective for that reason?

[Heather]

As far as being a detective, I. I don't really believe in. In. I think you can prove what you can prove, and being a detective is different. Right. So we brought in a female who transferred over from Holland, the actual town, not the country, into our pd. And man, she was by herself so much in that PD for five years that she had more experience than almost all my other officers in doing her own charges, running through the ecdr, doing investigations, soup to nuts, right? All the things that normally if you had a detective bureau, they would do, like finding, you know, whether it's surveillance cameras or interview and interrogation. She was with us six months. We had an opening and she was the best candidate and we put her in there. And it wasn't because she was a female. It's because of the experience she had out on the road. Now, is there an argument that says that maybe having a female detective for child victims and female victims of things like domestic violence and sex, sexual assault allow women to feel more comfortable in disclosing that. Yeah. But I would offer to say that in my situation, it was a man that made me feel like I was going to be okay. It was my, it was my friend Darren. He had no idea it was me when he was coming to that call. And we had stopped talking when Keith and I started dating. And as he, he sees like when they arrested Keith, he had like this big shopping cart of all this, of like diapers and formula and all this. He's like, oh man, the victim's got kids at home. I should grab all this stuff so it doesn't go bad. And so he brings it up to the house. And as I'm standing in the doorway, Darren pulls up in his cruiser and like gets out and starts walking and he sees it's me and I see it's him and I like draw. He drops all his and he comes and he runs at me, me and he hugs me and I'm like crying and I'm like, I'm so sorry that you have to see me like this, Darren. And Darren goes, I've never seen you look stronger. And like talk about something impactful. Having a strong man sit across from you or say something to you and tell you like, this isn't how you deserve to be treated. Like the impact in that, there's something so incredible about that. So again, I just think it has to do with the individual officer. Like I've known some really stupid women that can't get themselves out of a brown paper bag that's like that, that don't realize, like, what do you mean they said that? Then why didn't you follow up on that? She's like, oh, nobody told me to. I'm like, okay. And then I've had really stupid guys where like they do the same thing. Like it's for the person. And I do not believe that if you've been on the job for 20 years, that automatically means you should be a sergeant or because you've been here for 10 years, you should automatically be the FTO. If I have a two year person that's out, that doesn't know everything but understands the mission and the vision of the agency, buys into what we're trying to do on the quality side of our culture within the agency and can get themselves from A to Z and knows how to figure it out, I'm gonna put somebody in a car as an FTO with two years on who's gonna breed the right kind of culture we want to continue with than some salty person that's got 10 years on just because they want an extra hour of comp time. You know, like, it's just, it doesn't make sense to me to reward time without the, without the action.

[Tyler]

You got anything to add on to that, Tyler?

[Brent]

No, I think different viewpoint or women. She said women are better when they're to go with them being better detectives. I kind of agree, but it's because women care so much. Like, I mean just generally speaking, it's a job for men. Men like to do the things they do, but I don't think any of them care generally where women, I feel like they're nurturing their maternal life. And on top of that, I mean, you've been in relationships, you become the world's best undercover secret agent when you want to know something. Oh yeah, I've never, you know, I've never, I've never seen anything like it. Women can, women can get the answers to things when they're invested. And I think that they're naturally going to be inherently more invested than men. So that would, I could see how that it would. We both know or all three of us know that would never work. So you wouldn't really put it.

[Heather]

I love that dynamic of the women, men. Right. You're talking about this being a male dominated profession. And the reason being is that when we go way back, back in time, women didn't work. That's just what it was. So men had all the professions for the most part. And as we move through this, there is a difference. I see when I ask people, I'm very big about people's whys. Why are you doing this? Because you have a superficial why. You're just doing it because your dad did it or you didn't know what else you wanted to do in your life. So you're like, well, let me take the civil service exam when you have a real day. Might be easier for you to walk away.

[Tyler]

No, I, I love the good. Oh, keep going, keep going.

[Heather]

But then with women, I find that, that most of them, I mean, listen the statistics as far as domestic violence is. One in three women are either the victim of a domestic violence incident or sexual assault. And that's what's reported. And more often it's more like two out of four or three out of four. Right. They've seen it, whatever. So what I tend to find, and even with some of the men, that their why is very much rooted in that empathetic aspect of where they grew up and how they grew up, that when they're more vested, they, they are they, they care more, like you just said. But for women, their why usually comes from, this happened to me, this happened to a parent. You know, I lost a friend this way. I did this. And their foundation of their why in policing comes more from the heart than it does the brain. Because they either want to fix something or be a part of something bigger.

[Tyler]

I love the why behind it. Because this goes back to another topic that's obviously hot between the male female dichotomy, which is a lot of the reasons, if you go to the why. But why do women want to be on a SWAT team? Why do women want to be a Green Beret? Why do women want to go to ranger school? If you ask men that why, it's not always. Usually we have, we have to go off of the societal norms, not the narcissistic or outliers. Usually because they want to do that job. Because that job allows me the most tangible effect on bad people. Like they want to do the job. And so when a female wants to be, well, I want to be the first SWAT person, you know, and first female SWAT officer in my department. That's the wrong why. It's the wrong why. And I understand it's just human nature, but part of this feminism movement and this equality has to stop only fighting for glamorous positions. Women have to stop fighting just for C suite jobs. And just for the look at me, SWAT officer jobs or green berets or whatever it is. No one's ever upset that coal miners are 98% men and that construction workers are and the plumbers and all. You just have to be more consistent and the consistency will go to the why. Is the why because you really want to do that job job or is it the perks that that come with that job? Yes, you can be fast tracked to it.

[Heather]

For me wanting to be on SWAT personally, I can test like I want to be a part of that. Like high, like intensity calls. Like I want to be the one. Like I am a type A high growth needs individual. I'm a Taurus, I want to be in it, right? Like I'm a nosy. Like that's why I became a cop. I want to be a part of all this, whether it's good or it's bad. Because I just love fixing. And if fixing means taking out the bad guys, I want to be a part of it.

[Tyler]

And if the whys are right, you'll do what's necessary to do that job.

[Heather]

If you understand the why, you'll do the do. That's What I tell my people all the time, especially with this transition of this new. Everybody hates this new generation coming in. That all you can get it on loop. But you know, this younger generation, everybody bitches about how the fact they want to know why. Well, there's a time and a place and I tell my people that all the time. If we're on a hot call and I tell you to do something, you're going to say yes ma'am, and you're gonna go do it. But like if we have time, I'm gonna explain it because one, they're gonna understand it better. And that's just how their brain works, right? Leadership isn't about how you lead, it's about how other people follow and how they need to be led in order to follow the best way. And that has to do with understanding the why. So I tell them all the time to understand the why. Like, you know, in order to do the why, you gotta do the do you.

[Brent]

I wanna two part question and I. We all know the answers, but I want people to hear you say it. Like if. Because it's important. So do you believe that men have that inherent instinct to not pander to women but like in, in a hot situation, run towards a woman to protect women? Protect women?

[Heather]

Oh Yeah, I do, 100%. But I think in our line of duty we, we also want to protect everybody on the team. But I do think like even, and that was one of my concerns when I was pregnant and I bring this up in my class, like it isn't wrong that the guys want to protect you. Like you're either a woman or you're not. You're either being treated differently or you're not. And you can't have both ways just to fit the narrative that you want to work. But my guys said it best when I went to transfer out of my agency, when I went from Morris Township over to njit, I had the greatest group of guys at Morris Township. Like our squad was so close. You know, we had shitty administration at the time. It had just transferred when I got there. But the old chief, like just talk about somebody who do what I say, not as I do such a piece of shit. And I have no problem saying that he's not a chief anymore. He's just, he was the worst. I learned very much on what not to do from that man. And it was me transitioning. We had to use the force call. And I'm the first person to like head in. Like if we're having like, you know, a potential Deadly force. Like, I will take the deadly force. Like, I'll take it. I'm the supervisor. Like, I will take it. Like, if I'm the best one, if there's someone better on scene, they're gonna do it. But if we're just with our squad, like, you'll have less lethal. You'll have this less. Less lethal than me and one other person might have lethal. Like, let's spread it out and be smart. Because I just. I think for me, I want to take on that responsibility for my people. I look out for them, and I know I can take the shot. But other than that, what I'm. What I'm trying to say is, as we were going to use of force, I was like, all right, I'm coming, I'm coming. And my one guy, Lou, is like, yo, lt, you don't have to. And I was like, why? You don't think that I can handle myself? They're like, no, that's not the point. You just don't have to. We've got it right? And I was like, oh, God, I get that. Thank you. Like, you're about to transition out of this agency. You don't need to get, like, in an ia. An excessive. Like, you don't need that shit. We've got you. And again, it wasn't because I was a female for the majority, because they know I can handle myself. Like, I trained jiu jitsu with all of them. It was really just. They were looking out for the potential of what could happen as I transitioned out of that role. And it really helped me change. My mindset about. It isn't always just because they can't think I can do it. It's because I shouldn't have to sometimes. And sometimes I'm okay with that.

[Brent]

And the second part of my question is gonna be, I'm gonna take gender out of it and just ask about specifics as far as, like, size. Like, if you're working a call and something's gotta be done, are you going to base your decision making when you. I don't want to say dispatch somebody, but when you. When you give somebody a task, are you good in yourself to base it off of? Like, he's bigger, he's stronger, he's faster, he's gonna do it. As opposed to the Mighty Mouse female that wants it bad. She wants it bad, but you just can't risk it? Or are you the type of administrator that's gonna go, well, we need to give her a fair shot, too. She needs to prove herself.

[Heather]

I'm the kind of person that puts the right person at the right task. And so, like, we had a protest, and who do you think I sent in? I sent in my 6 foot 7 male who is jacked. Right. Who also wrestled in college. Right. He's who I'm sending because his police presence when he shows up is immediate. However, I also had a guy who was 6 foot 6 and he was just an idiot. Right. He's no longer a cop anymore. Did some bad things, but, like, I wanted him nowhere near anything where anything could escalate because he did it on purpose. So, yeah, there was a girl I would rather send in because she was phenomenal at de escalating things and she could handle herself if she needed to. But it's. So I think it's about the right person at the right time, and I don't always have that option. But if I do, like, if I'm putting together an operational plan for something, I'm looking at where my best person is. Right. Like, you know, I've listened to a couple of your episodes. You want the right person taking that.

[Tyler]

Shot all the time.

[Heather]

Right. Like that's why they're in that position. Then I listen. I'm an idiot when it comes to the military. Right. That number one spot that goes in and kills Osama bin Laden, you want that person to be your guy. Right. So not somebody who pretends to. I listen to the whole thing.

[Brent]

You don't want the number four guy to do it?

[Heather]

No, I don't think that would be right. Why would you risk the number 1, 2, and 3 because of it. Right.

[Tyler]

You don't want the 4 guy to write a book saying that he was the one and only guy. You also don't want that. All right.

[Heather]

No. Super disappointed.

[Tyler]

And we could be talking about Rob O'Neal, but we could be talking about anybody.

[Brent]

Anybody.

[Tyler]

But so listen, it just sounds a lot like Rob O'Neal. I get it.

[Heather]

My much younger. I don't know if I told you guys that he's nine years younger, which is super funny. So side note. And then we'll come back to Rob O'Neal, because I love making promise for you guys right now. So he was 22 when I met him. And when my ex husband killed himself, that was on December 11th. And on Christmas morning, my older two came down and they were like, listen, we'd like to know if you would like, legally adopt us and be on, you know, our birth certificates and everything. So they did. June 2nd of 2023, my husband became the legal father of all four of the kids on the birth certificate, which is hysterical because it looks like he got me pregnant when he was a junior in high school. My oldest daughter. That's pretty awesome. So I'm, you know, I'm ilf. It's cool. You can say it. It's fine. I keep telling my kids because, you know, they're 18 and 17. I'm like, I still look too young to be a grandmother. Please don't do it to me.

[Brent]

How old's your husband now?

[Heather]

35.

[Brent]

Okay, so he's not that much older.

[Heather]

No, 36. Oh, shit. Wait. Yeah, 36. He just turned 36.

[Brent]

I do the same thing. Am I 37 or 38?

[Heather]

I don't even know how old I am, so. Yeah. Yeah.

[Tyler]

It's like a scene out of old school. Frank, did you forget your birthday again?

[Heather]

That's a great movie. See? Yeah, it's not like Star wars now half your audience.

[Tyler]

That's right. I'm with you on that one. I don't get any of their Star wars references, and I get mocked for it all the time.

[Heather]

Can't do it.

[Tyler]

It.

[Brent]

Yeah, they're old.

[Tyler]

That's why the last thing. Last thing you want to talk about, because it's something you do, and I want you to be able to talk about it. The. You're the president of the New Jersey Women in Law Enforcement. How'd that come about? And what does that do?

[Heather]

It came about by being forced to go to it. My lieutenant at the time was like, I want you to go to this all girl training. I'm like, you. I'm like, I work so hard to be one of the guys. I'm like, I'm not going to go sit in a room. And I went. And I was like, oh, well, one. It isn't all just women, but this is actually pretty good. They have some good speakers. And then in 2019, they asked if I would be a part of the board. And I was like, sure, I'll be a part of the board. And then it transitioned to me being the vice president and then the president. And we've really transformed it. It's very much become the ability to empower everybody in New Jersey to be the best person they can be, not just the best cop. And one of the things we have, which you kind of talked about earlier, is we actually have like a mentoring program isn't just for women cops. It's for men cops, too. And we have. Have men mentors and female that are a part of it and one of the things that we give the officer once a month, we pick a new one is we give them a financial person.

[Brent]

That's cool.

[Heather]

So. And we make them sit with them and say, what do you think your long term goals are? Here's where you are in the pension plan, here's how much money you would bring home with, you know, how your, your contract might build over the next 25, 30 years and where you could be. And if you put this money away, this is what it'll look like and stuff because we want them to know. But that's one of the things we do along with mental health, DT firearms and leadership.

[Brent]

Man, that's actually really cool.

[Tyler]

We talked about this on the live and we talked about this before we recorded. But I want to make sure that everyone knows that we are consistent. Just in the last live, we gave a hard time to. I can't remember, my man. What was the name of that female Florida leadership class that they went to? It was like, it was, it was, it was an all. We gave it a hard time. Based off of this. It was an all female leadership course leadership conference just for females. And my argument to that was we don't have it rightfully so I believe actually you could not do an all male, male only leadership course, especially if it was all male, white and today's age. Oh yeah, all male white. I don't believe in all black leadership courses. Although you mentioned that they do that anytime. Because you're not. And to Tyler's point, it's like, well, you're not going to just lead black people aren't just going to lead black people. Men aren't just going to lead men. Women aren't just going to lead women. Leadership is for all. And so I said I have a problem with that. Based off of that, what are the pros to having an all female man hater club?

[Heather]

I don't think there's any man hater club pros.

[Tyler]

And it's not a leading question. That was.

[Heather]

No, I know. But Tyler said something before, right? He talked about four instead of as. And I kind of love that. And I'm actually going to change some verbiage in Jersey because of it. Because I like. It's a play on words. It's what it is, right? It still is as or for. But I, I like how you really open that up.

[Tyler]

But words have meaning. I, I liked what he said too.

[Heather]

I do too. I really like that. Like tactical handgun. As a female. I dig that. Or you know, leadership as a Female. But I think the men need to hear it too. I believe in creating a space where we can have conversations where we might be more comfortable. Right. There are certain people I've worked with that I wouldn't have been comfortable talking about breastfeeding or the fact that, like.

[Brent]

Yeah, the old dude making boob jokes all shift. You're like, I don't wanna talk to him about my.

[Heather]

Yeah, I mean, it's that and it's more. Right. Like, why should I. You don't need that trauma. For me. Right. Like, you walk past my locker room, you hear me sounding like I'm milking a cow. That's enough for you. Yeah. So for me, I think that there's definitely a time and place to have a platform where people can come together to talk about the issues that might be unique to them on the job. But there are definitely men out there that want to hear, all right. I didn't really know that this was even a thing.

[Tyler]

Right, right. That's a counter to it. If you don't open them up to it, then they don't. Then you're basically kind of just isolating your needs because they have to hear your concerns and needs to agree.

[Heather]

Yeah. We had more men attend our New Jersey women. And listen, I don't ever want a man to come if they're taking away position from another woman. Because I feel like what we do at our conferences is very much empowering to everybody that goes. And women don't necessarily get as much training. Sometimes it depends on where they are. That's just the role in New Jersey. I'm not saying it's what I agree with or not. I believe that it should be spread out equally. Everybody should get training. Training that's quality for them, for their job and their position, time basis, all that. But what's. What's been really great to see is I did have a woman come up to me and she was like, I hate that you let men come to this conference. And I was like, then don't come.

[Brent]

I'm not gonna lie. If I. If I knew a guy that was gonna. I'm gonna go to an all woman, I'd be suspicious. I'd be like, what the fuck? Why?

[Heather]

Oh, my God, it's so great. So. And I. I led this year with. I think it was a break. And I was like, I just want to recognize all the men in the room and say thank you. Because, like, like, you're lucky. You get to see what it's like when women go to training, like we don't have to wait online for they're.

[Brent]

There to get laid.

[Heather]

No. I mean, maybe, but most of them are lesbians, right?

[Tyler]

As always, it goes back to the why, why are you here?

[Heather]

And I was like, you know, I go, listen, guys, take notes. Because I make 550 women happy every single year, and you can barely make one happy, right? So, yeah, no, I don't. I. I love his ads. And I'm just. I'm gonna. I'm gonna use that. I'm gonna steal it.

[Brent]

You can do. I'm gonna steal your do the do.

[Heather]

Why the why?

[Brent]

Why the why?

[Heather]

I like it.

[Brent]

What's up? What do you do for Justice Academy?

[Heather]

I teach two courses. I teach a gender specific course for women. It's called Empowering women to Excel and Inspire. And it is very much. You know, people think it's going to be this course that's all about hating men. And actually it's completely not. I call out all the shit from the women. I'm like, you know, know, tactically, like, like, there are these stigmas in, in policing about women. Like, stop advocating for them. Like, if you, like, don't just expect the stigmas to go away. Like, work to make them go away, show up, learn how to shoot, do defensive tactics like, stop bitching, stop causing the drama. Right? And it. And it talks about things like family leave and what you're entitled to and what men are entitled to, as far as that's concerned. And state specific. And, you know, it talks about, you know, certain. I break down some videos. Like, I talk about Dante Wright and Kim Potter out of Minnesota, where instead of tasing him, she shot him. And I talk about how, like, so many people will sit here and like, talk about how, wow, she should have retired and she should. No, she didn't train enough, right? She didn't train with her tools. Like, that's your responsibility. Like, yes, some onus could probably be on your agency. Do they allow you the time to do it? Well, how much Netflix did you sit and watch? Right? Like, where you could have been training, so. And you know, then we're our own worst enemy, because whatever. So. So I teach a gender specific course that goes through that. And I do tell my domestic violence story in there and offer resources. And, you know, I give. I pay honor. My last slide in that is roll call for my friend Jordan, who I met through teaching. And her and her husband were both Cleveland County Sheriff's officers out of Oklahoma. And August 31st of 2023, I actually talked to her And I was like, you gotta get out of this relationship. He put bleach all over her uniform so she couldn't go interview for the same sergeant's exam that he was up for. I'm like, girl, you're done. Just bring your son and come on up to Jersey. I don't give a shit. Right? Come live with me. And that night they went out to the bar, and when they got home, he shot her 19 times. 12 in the face. So, like, and here I am thinking like, me sharing my story with people is going to make it better. But, you know, like, I know meeting a lot of cops, I'll. I'll meet more that either kill themselves because that's just what it is, or they're killed in line of duty. But I never thought I would be because of that. So that's how I end that one. And then I teach a leadership course called Road to Rank, and it's navigating the law enforcement ladder. And it's very much about leadership at every single part. And stop relying so much on your lead leadership to set the culture of even just your individual squad. Like, you know, like, you have to take some onus. Like, if you're going to be the guy who's like, oh, chief sucks. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and all you are is negative all the time. Like, you're ruining your career because your chief isn't with you the whole time. Yeah. Some of the shit that comes down sucks, sucks. And if you don't know the why, you're not going to want to do the do. But you know, you and. And that's where that transitioned at Morris Township. Our. Our squad started to say, like, fuck this chief. Who cares what he. Like, who cares how he makes us feel? Let's make each other feel great while we're here together.

[Tyler]

Yeah. And I'd go as far as, you're not just ruining your career, you're ruining everyone's. You're stealing the joy from everyone's career beneath you.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

Because you set that. Whether that's one person, two people, and you're negative culture, not just beneath you, but to the people to your left and right of you.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

You're now a cancer.

[Heather]

Agreed.

[Tyler]

And if you want to look for the, you know, the good parts and positive parts of your job, you'll. You'll find it.

[Heather]

Agreed.

[Tyler]

But you set those, Those new guys up on this negative. Everything sucks. The policies are against us. The culture in this department sucks. That's exactly what they'll reiterate. But if you tell them how great their job is, they will believe that they have a great job.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Brent]

Just take one Saturday night off and go watch a series run of co and you'll get back into it.

[Heather]

You'll be like patrol live.

[Brent]

Do you. Do you. Do you travel when you instruct or do you. You do like all over the country?

[Heather]

Yeah, all over the country.

[Brent]

Nice.

[Heather]

Like, I'll be in. I was supposed to go to Texas this week, but that got. Ended up getting canceled, so. But I have New Hampshire, Colorado, maybe San Diego for their women's conference. You can come with me if you want to.

[Tyler]

I might.

[Heather]

I think you should.

[Tyler]

I might.

[Heather]

And you know, so many people ask. You can come.

[Brent]

Well, there's a height don't do you?

[Heather]

Yeah, we'll put you on the small side.

[Tyler]

No, you're welcome back to any. I'd love to have on on a Thursday night live podcast. You'd have a blast. I know you. You're out in Jersey. Meantime, you come back to Florida on a Thursday. You have a.

[Heather]

We're opening.

[Brent]

We're gonna put you on the panel Saturday night.

[Heather]

Okay.

[Tyler]

Live.

[Brent]

It's gonna be live stream, framed and live in front of a crowd.

[Heather]

Let's go.

[Tyler]

So, last question I have for you and you know, we've talked about a lot of heavy subjects. Really?

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

So the ended on a high note. Give us a funny story.

[Heather]

Oh, a funny story.

[Brent]

I know you now. I know you don't finish our podcast.

[Heather]

Yeah, yeah. My head's so elsewhere. No, I don't finish most of the things I start.

[Brent]

Like marriages.

[Heather]

I'm just kidding, honey. Matt, if you're listening, I love you, my poor husband. You know, because I always feel like maybe, maybe they're not so funny. I don't think I'm very funny, so I don't know, but. Oh, okay. I'm going to tell you what I do as a leader because I think it's fun. I train Jiu Jitsu and my chief does not. Okay. And we now have mandatory Jiu Jitsu training every year and I am the DT instructor. So I will randomly find people sitting somewhere and I go up behind them and I will rear naked choke them until they tap. And so I did it to my chief the other day to the point where I jumped up on his back because he's a man of very tall stature. He's a very big stature too. But I also have a nerf gun in my room. And so I play sniper throughout the entire police department whenever I feel like it. So I'll watch the cameras for people like that are about to walk in and I'll go on the ground outside my office and I'll snipe people I video.

[Brent]

I can show you you're more fun than most dudes in law enforcement.

[Heather]

I like, you gotta have fun, right? Like, absolutely. You have to have fun. There's a time to be serious, but it doesn't always have to be. And that's where you hopefully can eradicate things like, and I know we're never going to, but it's my goal to make sure I don't know another cop that kills himself.

[Brent]

Yeah, that's awesome. Don't turn your back on Heather. She'll choke you.

[Heather]

I will in a heartbeat. Me and my 9 year old.

[Tyler]

For the rest of you, my chin's gonna be down.

[Heather]

That's okay, baby.