Narcotics Interdiction

Summary

The Antihero Podcast: Episode Summary - "Narcotics Interdiction"

Release Date: January 20, 2025
Host: The Antihero Podcast

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Introduction to Narcotics Interdiction

In this episode of The Antihero Podcast, host Tyler, along with co-hosts Brent and Kenny, delve deep into the intricacies of narcotics interdiction. Drawing from real-world experiences and extensive fieldwork, the trio offers listeners an unfiltered look into the challenges and triumphs faced by law enforcement officers combating drug trafficking.

Real-World Interdiction Experiences

Tyler kicks off the discussion by sharing a gripping firsthand account of a high-stakes drug bust:
“[00:37] Tyler: So thank God for guys in Pennsylvania. They saved my ass. They stopped it and he had like 15 pounds of heroin in the gas tank.”

This anecdote underscores the unpredictable nature of drug interdiction and highlights the resourcefulness required by officers. The team discusses unconventional hiding spots used by traffickers, such as modified gas tanks, emphasizing the need for constant vigilance and adaptability.

Understanding Legal Frameworks

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to dissecting the legal nuances that underpin narcotics interdiction:

1. Reasonable Suspicion vs. Probable Cause

   • Brent explains:
     “[12:23] Brent: Reasonable suspicion is what gives me the reason to look into something. It’s reasonable that I can see why that cop stopped that guy because of this. It was reasonable suspicion. Probable cause is what’s needed to make the arrest.”

   The hosts elaborate on how these legal standards dictate the extent of police authority during traffic stops and searches, stressing the delicate balance between enforcement and respecting individual rights.

2. Impact of Legal Missteps

   • Brent recounts a personal setback:
     “[09:57] Tyler: …I didn’t test the straw, so I lost a PC.”

   This mistake, stemming from not testing a paraphernalia straw for residue, led to the loss of probable cause, illustrating how procedural errors can jeopardize even the most promising cases.

Evolution of Drug Detection Techniques

The conversation shifts to the evolving tactics of drug traffickers and the corresponding advancements in police interdiction methods:

• Innovative Concealment Methods

  • Tyler notes:
    “[54:02] Tyler: They might conceal, they might move the access, they might move whether it’s electric or Bondo or whatever it is. But it’s still going to be an access somewhere to get into it.”

  The hosts discuss how traffickers continuously adapt, using modifications like concealed compartments in vehicles or even specialized cars like Teslas, which present new challenges for interdiction teams.

Legal Developments Affecting Interdiction

A pivotal segment addresses recent legal changes impacting narcotics interdiction, particularly focusing on the use of drug-sniffing dogs:

• Florida's New Ruling on Canine Alerts

  • Kenny introduces the topic:
    “[16:42] Kenny: ...an appeals court...said a drug sniffing dog's alert did not justify police searching a car because the dog could not differentiate between medical marijuana and illegal pot.”

  This ruling from Florida's fifth District Court of Appeals introduces uncertainty in canine-assisted searches, as dogs trained to detect multiple substances may no longer provide sufficient probable cause if they cannot distinguish legal from illegal drugs. The hosts debate the implications, noting that:

  “[21:54] Tyler: They say that you can't. Some people say you can, some people say you can't.”

Human Element in Law Enforcement

Throughout the episode, Tyler and Kenny emphasize the deeply personal and often emotional aspects of narcotics interdiction:

• Empathy Towards Offenders

  • Tyler reflects:
    “[63:18] Tyler: I have a job. Like, you know, like I truly do. And I feel awful for some of them and especially the ones that other people are preying on their vulnerabilities.”

  This sentiment highlights the complexity of policing, where officers must balance duty with compassion, recognizing that many offenders are vulnerable individuals manipulated by larger criminal networks.

Challenges in Pursuit and Officer Safety

The podcast doesn't shy away from discussing the inherent dangers in law enforcement pursuits:

• Risks of Pursuits

  • Tyler shares a sobering experience:
    “[46:05] Tyler: Yeah, not by us, man. Like, yeah, you run. They're chasing you.”

  The hosts debate the policies surrounding vehicle pursuits, weighing the necessity of apprehending suspects against the potential for tragic outcomes, such as accidents or loss of life.

Interagency Collaboration and Technology

Kenny introduces Apollo, an app-based tool designed to enhance interagency communication and resource management during critical incidents:

• Kenny explains:
  “[14:46] Kenny: It gives first responders a common operating picture which allows them to see where everybody is in real time, overlaid onto a map to see where they are.”

  This technology aims to streamline responses to crises, reducing reliance on traditional radio communication and increasing operational efficiency.

Future Directions and Personal Aspirations

As the episode draws to a close, the hosts share their personal aspirations and future plans:

• Podcasting and Education

  • Tyler discusses:
    “[59:36] Tyler: ...I create bucket list to keep the job fun. Like, I truly do. I create buckets. This is what I want to do, this, want to accomplish…”

  Through podcasting and educational initiatives, Tyler and his colleagues aim to foster better understanding and training within the law enforcement community, while also humanizing officers to the broader public.

Anecdotes and Light-Hearted Moments

Despite the heavy topics, the episode concludes with a humorous story about a baby pig causing chaos at a gas station:

• Tyler recounts:
  “[66:43] Tyler: I chased that thing around for, like, 30 minutes in the parking lot, and I finally caught the thing. And I had no idea what pigs do. And they make the loudest screaming noise.”

  This light-hearted narrative provides listeners with a relatable and amusing glimpse into the unexpected scenarios officers often encounter.

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Notable Quotes:

• “[00:37] Tyler: So thank God for guys in Pennsylvania. They saved my ass. They stopped it and he had like 15 pounds of heroin in the gas tank.”
• “[12:23] Brent: Reasonable suspicion is what gives me the reason to look into something. It’s reasonable that I can see why that cop stopped that guy because of this. It was reasonable suspicion.”
• “[16:42] Kenny: ...an appeals court...said a drug sniffing dog's alert did not justify police searching a car because the dog could not differentiate between medical marijuana and illegal pot.”
• “[63:18] Tyler: I have a job. Like, you know, like I truly do. And I feel awful for some of them and especially the ones that other people are preying on their vulnerabilities.”
• “[66:43] Tyler: I chased that thing around for, like, 30 minutes in the parking lot, and I finally caught the thing. And I had no idea what pigs do. And they make the loudest screaming noise.”

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Conclusion

Episode "Narcotics Interdiction" of The Antihero Podcast offers a comprehensive exploration of the multifaceted world of drug enforcement. By blending personal narratives with professional insights and legal analysis, Tyler, Brent, and Kenny provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the challenges faced by law enforcement officers in the ongoing battle against narcotics trafficking. The episode not only highlights procedural tactics and legal frameworks but also delves into the human side of policing, fostering empathy and a deeper appreciation for the complexities of the job.

Transcript

[Tyler]

I don't typically go watch my cameras. I decided to this time. So I pulled in the median and I watch and as soon as I get out of my car, the dude says, please don't find it, please don't find it.

[Brent]

I was just about to follow up Brett's thing. Where did any getaway that you knew were there?

[Tyler]

So thank God for guys in Pennsylvania. They saved my ass. They stopped it and he had like 15 pounds of heroin in the gas tank. And that's when I learned that sending units not always under the back seat. Sometimes you have to lower the gas tank to get to him. But this guy had cut holes in the top of his gas tank and dropped his kilos in.

[Brent]

Hold on, we're not recording.

[Kenny]

Wanna buy a raffle?

[Brent]

Do you wanna buy a shirt to support military dance? People wanna see their sausage get made.

[Kenny]

An appropriate level of inappropriateness. Something happens in my family tonight. The adult divorce isn't coming to rescue my family. My kids like it is. First responders that are that are gonna save my family.

[Brent]

They want the cult. They want people to not want to be cops. And the people that do want to be cops are now walking into the job scared to do the job.

[Kenny]

I'm going to try to act like it didn't happen, although we we all know it did.

[Brent]

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[Kenny]

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[Brent]

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[Brent]

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[Kenny]

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[Brent]

JV team for life.

[Tyler]

All right, you guys, tell me, does.

[Kenny]

This sound too echoey? No, this is good.

[Brent]

I think something sounds really gay about your voice, though. Yeah, well, that's my zest. What was that word?

[Kenny]

Zesty.

[Brent]

Zesty.

[Kenny]

Yeah. Yeah. Didn't give you an echo. Gave you a lisp, though. That's weird.

[Brent]

Hey, guys, can you hear me now?

[Kenny]

It's the audio.

[Tyler]

I just wanted to point something out real quick. I have OCD and this is like off center. Is this always off center like this?

[Brent]

What's off center?

[Kenny]

Tell me.

[Tyler]

I'm here. Like this is up over here.

[Kenny]

Unfuck that. I usually do kind of go. Go through this.

[Brent]

All right, I'm gonna go.

[Kenny]

Here we go. Do it.

[Brent]

Welcome back to the anti hero podcast. Part delta force, part street cop. All truth. I'm Tyler, owner of Refracted Wolf Apparel. Use promo code anti hero and get yourself 15 off the best and outsider culture. Graphic tees, stickers, hats, flags, ranger panties and beanies for the cold weather season. And long sleeve shirts and hoodies. Did I say hoodies? I said hoodies already.

[Tyler]

I don't remember.

[Brent]

I stopped listening.

[Kenny]

Say it again. Really? Really. Send it home. Say it again.

[Brent]

Yeah, hoodies, hat, stickers, flags, beanies. I can't. If I don't say it in. In the way I usually do it, I can't say all that. I go into autopilot with that one.

[Kenny]

Am I up?

[Brent]

Yeah, you're up. Okay.

[Kenny]

And I'm Brent Tucker, owner of FRCC. First Responder Coffee Company and First Responder Cigar Company. Use promo code FRCC15. That's FRCC15. To get 15% off the world's best coffee and cigars.

[Brent]

And of course, this episode is brought to you by Ghostbed. Sleep so good it's scary. Go to ghostbed.comantihero and get 50% off your order. That's 5, 0% off. Or go to checkout and use promo code Anti hero. Same thing. 50% off. 60,000 plus 5 star rating and review. All handcrafted here in America and in Canada. And take advantage of their patented cooling technology. Nailed it. Everybody's just like, first time. But yeah, take advantage of that. It's. It's cold outside. We all turn the heaters on. It's a. It's the perfect sleeping conditions and Ghostbed is the only one that has it. I just made that up. But I'M pretty sure it's true. So go to ghostbed.comantihero and get 50% off your order.

[Kenny]

Forget our Thursday night lives. Every Thursday at 8:00pm Eastern Standard Time. It's the highlight of our week. It's a good time. If you haven't tuned in, it's a drastically different show. It's a really good time. It's just hanging out with the boys. And also our Patreon. Don't forget our Patreon. We have the most affordable Patreon in the industry. 3 or $5 gets you access to behind the scenes things, future episodes, questions directly to us. That is also a, a good time and a uni to be a part of. I'm really, really glad we do that. I didn't really know what to expect and so started doing it. And the Patreon's really fun actually.

[Brent]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I just uploaded a behind the scenes. I got to send it to you, but. Well, I guess you can go on Patreon and look. But behind the scenes of our show in Philly, I just had somebody running a camera the whole time. I chopped it up and just, you know, make something interesting so you can see the actual live show on YouTube. But I did a behind the scenes on for Patreon.

[Kenny]

Our Patreon also gets to weigh in on future guests and questions for the guests that, that everyone else just has to listen to.

[Brent]

And they get giveaways.

[Kenny]

And they get giveaways. That's right. Yep. We're getting really good at those, those, those giveaways.

[Tyler]

I had to be one of your first members on that, right?

[Brent]

Yeah. Oh yeah.

[Tyler]

I was like, I'm not ready to see.

[Brent]

Oh yeah. Getting one of the first OG guys.

[Kenny]

Speaking of Kenny, that's who we got with us today. With us today in studio for the podcast is Kenny Williams, aka Red Ninja. 17 years law enforcement under his belt and he's still doing the job. Focus on interdiction, not you don't just do it on the job. You also train, which, and I've, and I've seen your, your course before. I was very impressed by it. Also the host of the beyond the Barrel podcast, which I just did a podcast with you on that as well. And in fact I asked you to, to give me like a few of your stats and you, and you pulled up some stats for me and I was like, you know what? Just, I can't, I can't write all that down. And it's. And I don't know which one to choose. So I'M like, I'm just going to read them all. This is his interdiction stats. 2400 ounces of codeine, 4200 prescription pills, over 9000 dosage units. MDMA, 76 pounds of fentanyl, 13,500 fentanyl pills, 4 kilos of Calvertano car. Fentanyl, carfentanol. It's not my. It's not my lane.

[Brent]

It's not my lane.

[Kenny]

Yeah, now I sound like drew. I did 54 pounds of heroin, 127 pounds of cocaine, 2 pounds of crack, 78 pounds of meth, 6 kilos of fake dope, 422 pounds of synthetic marijuana, almost 6,000 pounds of actual marijuana. One hundred and fifty marijuana plants. Driving with the plants themselves. We'll get into that. And $7.3 million in cash seizures and one kilo of gold. I have questions about the gold. We'll get into that. Those stats are amazing. I'm super glad you keep those stats. That is really cool. It's got to be cool to hear that, like when after 17 years, you started in 2012 doing the interdiction work, you did full time starting in 2016. So it's not like you have done it the whole time. Like we're really talking about essentially like the last 10 years is like your body of work. You did all that.

[Tyler]

It's awkward that you bring that up and.

[Kenny]

Yeah, I know, I know, I know it's awkward. Everyone likes making me sick.

[Brent]

Well, here's the thing. When they go to go, hey, we're gonna cut this full time interdiction unit. You go, oh, wait, look at this stat.

[Tyler]

That's the main reason that I kept.

[Brent]

Those 1 million pounds of heroin.

[Kenny]

Nobody wants to hear the great things that they've done. I get it. But man, at some point you do. At some point you have to hear that, look inward and be like, yeah, I did that because at the end of the day, or else what did you do all that work for? You did it for something. You did it for a tangible reason. You have tangible results to your job. And not everyone can say that.

[Brent]

What's the percentages of convictions?

[Tyler]

I don't follow my case at all.

[Kenny]

Good for you.

[Brent]

I always said that a good cop, their job is to get probable calls and make arrests. Now you are supposed to try and help the back end out with great PC, but at the end of the day, you could give them the best PC and sometimes they'll still drop that shit. So killing yourself over it and wondering like, oh, why didn't this go through? Or I wonder what's going on with this case. It's just. And then maybe they call you in a year to come testify.

[Tyler]

Yeah. Early. Early in my career, there were some detectives that said, do not follow your cases. It will eat you up. And I was like, fair enough. Good advice.

[Brent]

They could have been dropping them all the whole time.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Brent]

My biggest dope. My biggest dope seizure in a car got thrown out. And the mbi, the task force agent called me, and he was like, I want to explain to you because I was a retard street cop. And he goes, I want to explain to you what happened, because it was a great. I pulled a car over. I was circling it. I'm, like, running out of. Like, I run it out of that time where I'm like, this is getting to be maybe too long. And I zoom in in the cup holder, and I see a Newport pack with a purple straw in the plastic. I'm like, oh, there it is, baby. I pull it out. I pull them out. I find all the dope, find the gun. Right. And I didn't test the straw for residue before I did everything. And so I didn't test it at all, actually. And the agent was like, we all know that's paraphernalia, but you have to. You have to. You could have pulled them all out and detained them. That's totally fine. But the first thing you do before you start rummaging through that car and finding all this evidence, you should have tested that straw. And I didn't, because I just said based on my training experience, this is a. An instrument to ingest narcotics into the body. But I didn't test it, so I lost a PC.

[Kenny]

When you say test the straw, what is. What does that mean?

[Tyler]

Residual.

[Brent]

Like, if you're doing cocaine through a straw or drugs to a straw, it's gonna have residual the straw they use to sniff it. Yeah. Essentially, I searched a car and got all the. All these charges based off somebody possessing a straw. Right. That's the way they looked at it in the court. They're like, if you would have tested the dope on the straw, you would have been good all day. But because you didn't test the dope on the straw, your PC to get in the car was somebody having a plastic straw. And the training and experience thing didn't go that far.

[Tyler]

Yeah, I guess. I mean, you're gonna learn from that. It's a learning experience. Not like a complete failure. But it sucks, I guess.

[Brent]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

But I mean, again, like, we. As you know, you're looking at the spectrum of, like, reasonable suspicion, probable cause, and then beyond a reasonable doubt. Like, reasonable suspicion is very low.

[Brent]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

Then, I mean, so I guess if you would have. You would have had all day if you had, you know, the straw and then that reasonable suspicion. To call a dog, you had a lot of time, but then the probable cause, you know, it's like, I don't know how to even describe it. Maybe 51%. And then beyond a reasonable doubt is.

[Brent]

At like 90% to our listeners. And Brent, if you don't know, probably don't.

[Tyler]

Sorry.

[Brent]

No, that's right.

[Kenny]

I love it. These are the episodes I love.

[Brent]

Reasonable suspicion is what gives me the reason to look into something. Right. You, like detaining you at. Terry, stop. Like, reasonable suspicion is. It's reasonable that I. If you looked at a third party, you go, I can see why that cop stopped that guy because of this. It was reasonable suspicion. Probable cause is what's needed to make the arrest. It's probable that you committed this crime. It's up to the courts to figure out beyond a reasonable doubt you are guilty. So that's the three steps in somebody getting in trouble.

[Kenny]

Okay.

[Tyler]

And for, like, reasonable suspicion, I describe it this way, two different ways. Close business. You as a cop, you pull in the parking lot, There's a busted window. There's one car that is leaving. He does not commit an infraction. It's reasonable to believe that I can stop you now to figure out if you just busted that window, because that window is freshly broken. So I could stop you. And then once that dispel that, then I could be like, okay, you're free to go. In my state, for one year only, you could do anything on the phone you wanted to besides text and drive. But as you go by me, if your phone is in your hand, it'd be reasonable to believe that you are texting and driving. If you showed me. Nope, I'm just playing this game on my phone. There is nothing I can do.

[Brent]

And that recently texted, way less dangerous.

[Tyler]

Yeah, like I could. There was no law that says so. You'd be like, no, I'm just playing this game. Like, fair enough. I've got rid of it. Got rid of that reasonable suspicion, and now you're on your way.

[Brent]

JV team for life.

[Kenny]

Tyler, how many critical incidents do you think we've covered so far in this podcast, man?

[Brent]

At least five, six.

[Kenny]

And they're not going to stop. You know, there's. You cannot stop them all. So they're going to happen. And you really have, you know, two charters of that. Obviously, one is to stop them from happening, but since you can't stop them all from happening, you owe it to the people that you protect and depend on you to react to those situations in the most effective and efficient manner. And right now, really, whether, you know, you're a fire department, ems, law enforcement, you're stuck with essentially radios.

[Brent]

And Apollo is the best way to manage resources during these events because it's designed by first responders for first responders.

[Kenny]

It gives first responders a common operating picture which allows them to see where everybody is in real time, overlaid onto a map to see where they are. You can drop pinpoints and let them know where they need to go. And without constant talking on the radio, everybody knows where the incident is, where it's happening, and where they need to be.

[Brent]

Apollo is an app based application. This is just download and go.

[Kenny]

It's an app and so it works with Androids, it works with iPhones.

[Brent]

Apollo makes sure on the back end, everything works and you can just plug and go. They handle all the licensing, all the encryption compliance, all the security. It's all handled by Apollo. It's crucial to know where everyone is and what they are doing in order to effectively control chaos in one of these, either natural disasters or, or shootings or anything like that.

[Kenny]

So if you want to learn more about Apollo, scan the QR code and ensure your department is ready to react to any crisis in its most effective and efficient manner possible.

[Brent]

JV Team for life.

[Kenny]

All right, got a question for that now. All right, if they were just, if they were just like, nope, I wasn't texting and driving you, you don't have the authority to say prove it unless he just happens to want to prove it. But if he's like, no, I don't have to prove it, there's nothing you can do about that. It's always weird. There's like those, those nuances to it. Did you hear, or you. Tyler, do you hear about the, the law that just. I believe it's passed about canine, the use of canines as I believe the word used for reasonable suspension for, for drug use. So if a canine hits on a car in Florida, they can no longer use that to search your vehicle.

[Brent]

I did not hear about that.

[Kenny]

Okay, well, and while you guys are talking, I'll, I'll bring it up and, and I'll read it to you and let you know exactly. And know what they're saying.

[Tyler]

Yeah, I'm curious. So I know there's some states basically, if you like Pennsylvania, for example, you. Pennsylvania, for example, like if you get, if you stop a car and the dog alerts without them giving you consent, you have to then do a search warrant. There's several other states, not, I don't know, maybe five or 10. But there are certain states and I'd be shocked if Florida went that rod. Just because of the, I don't know.

[Brent]

I didn't hear about it.

[Tyler]

Yeah, the climate, yeah, the climate of this, the state in general, more on the conservative side. Prolonged.

[Brent]

They won't even let you have recreational wheat here.

[Kenny]

Yeah, I'll give it to you. And, and what could be the first of its kind ruling in Florida. An appeals court Tuesday said a drug sniffing dog's alert did not justify police searching a car because the dog could not differentiate between medical marijuana and illegal pot. The ruling by a three judge panel of the fifth District Court of Appeals in Lake county case could add complexity to police searching vehicles without obtaining warrants. I'll go a little. Because it does, it does. If you're a little further, if your.

[Tyler]

Dog'S not imprinted on marijuana, I think that you'd be fine at that point because now.

[Brent]

Yeah, so they're, now when they train dogs, they're training and not, they're not even using marijuana in the curriculum. So they don't hit on marijuana anymore.

[Kenny]

And here's, here's the problem and I think, I think it's about to maybe explain some of that here in a second. Officers searched the car and found a bag that contained marijuana, crack cocaine, ecstasy and methamphetamine, leading to the rest of a passenger, Stephen Ford. According to Tuesday's ruling, Ford tried to get the evidence suppressed by arguing the dog could not differentiate between legal marijuana and medical marijuana or hemp. The circuit just refused to suppress the evidence, but the appeals court backed Ford's argument. While other drugs were also found, the appeals court said it is possible that polo alerted to marijuana in the bag that pot was found, not medical marijuana. And it goes on to say, essentially I'm going to try to make sure I say it right. An alert. I think I found it right here. An alert by a dog trained not to alert to cannabis or to alert to cannabis differently than alerts to other drugs and still on its own supply probable cause. And for another thing, even without canine training, an undifferentiated alert can supply probable cause. When combined with an officer's question ruling out the presence of lawful cannabis, officers easily can Be trained. Officers easily can be trained to ask such questions in conjunction with the dogs. Undifferentiated alert. Basically what they. That wasn't a good. So I'm not gonna read the whole thing. But they're also kind of arguing that dogs can. As of right now, dogs are trained to smell all drugs. Dogs can't answer back. So you don't know what that dog alerted on. You don't know if it alerted on cocaine. You don't know if it alerted on ecstasy or legal marijuana. So a dog alert as of right now, since it can't. And you can't talk to that dog and ask it. They're throwing. They're on this case and now it's now case law. It could be a future problem with canine alerts and. And drugs.

[Brent]

I think once they. Once they stop training all dogs on marijuana, I think that that'll really like. Hey, is your dog trained in the use of detecting marijuana? No. All right, proceed.

[Kenny]

Yeah, but that's. Man, what's. Now for that to happen? What are we off canines for. For alerts for a year or you go.

[Brent]

Sure.

[Kenny]

I don't know.

[Brent]

Do you have a. Do you have a medical marijuana card? No. Okay, proceed.

[Kenny]

But they have to answer that question. Bad guys. Bad guys start getting smart and they know the law and they'll use. And they'll use it against you.

[Brent]

Do you have to read a Miranda to ask them an incriminating question like that?

[Tyler]

I don't think so. I think if you asked it during the course of your traffic stop. Do you have a unassuming way that's just now once you're not.

[Brent]

That's true.

[Tyler]

You know, like, I think that maybe have some ounces there, but there's other states that have done this. So you'll have a curve where hire all these.

[Kenny]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tyler]

If the Supreme Court. Supreme Court. So. And then what? That's. That's now the law.

[Brent]

I don't even know what we're gonna have dogs for. They can't fight anybody hardly anymore. They can't now we can't use them for dough. We're gonna use them for pets petting and meet and greets and about it.

[Tyler]

I mean, my dog's parents. I mean, he does a great job at finding drugs, but he's. Yeah. Very therapeutic.

[Kenny]

I'm not gonna ask you this. Yeah. And pertaining to that, because that's. That is going to be a problem, you know, throughout the United States, you know that dogs are trained on marijuana. And now you can't tell if it's legal or illegal. And that's going to be a problem. Can you untrain a dog to be.

[Brent]

Like, you know what?

[Kenny]

There's no more rewards for you when you hit on marijuana. Stop that.

[Tyler]

Or that.

[Kenny]

Or that Will. That's an honest question. You know, if you can train a dog, can you untrain a dog?

[Tyler]

They say that you can't. Some people say you can, some people say you can't.

[Brent]

Let's ask the dog. Oh, wait, we can't.

[Tyler]

I think that would be more of a challenge that like most people even want, you know, battle just for the fact that.

[Brent]

Easier to get rid of the dogs.

[Tyler]

Not get rid of them. Retirement. You, like, throw them outside.

[Kenny]

But some departments work so hard to even get a dog. I know you're gonna say this dog and the. And the one use. You can still use it for. You can't use it for.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

And you would talk about a. Just kicking the gut to canines of units around the country. I want to ask you some specific questions. I love stories. I think everyone loves stories of. Of your. Of all your interdictions. What. What, do you have one in mind that was like, I can't believe I found that. I almost gave up on that. That one was really crazy and kind of un. You know, kind of discovering maybe a new TTP or the one that almost got away. Like, man, I can't believe I was. I was. It's got to be. I was minutes away from letting this guy go. I mean, I was at wit's end and I finally found it. There's gotta be some times where you find it real quick. It's gotta be some other times where you were searching.

[Brent]

Yeah, I could play it in the gray.

[Tyler]

Tell you like one that eats me up still to this day. Okay, yeah, stop a car. BS story, lies to me. Go through the whole thing. And then his GPS is like. He's telling me he's going from Chicago to Ohio. His GPS is saying that he's going to New York. So, like, all these, like, licenses. I searched this car for an hour, at least an hour, and I don't find anything.

[Brent]

Like, did you have a dog hit?

[Tyler]

No, no. Gave me consent and consent the whole time.

[Brent]

After about 20 minutes, I'd be like, can you wrap it up, please?

[Tyler]

So the whole time, he never would drew consent. And I'm like, so I'm underneath the car, I'm smelling gas. While the. Take that back. I'm on the side of the car and I'm smelling gas. And I thought all sending units in cars. Because I don't know how to work on cars. I'm. I can't fix. But so I'm searching. I'm like, all right, man. The sending units typically are under the back seat. Well, not in this suv, I find out later. So I smell gas. I'm like, eventually I just give up. And I think, this dude is empty now. Going to pick up and come back. So I go back in my car, you know, after an hour, he's like, is this typical? I'm like, well, you're lying to me. You know, kind of play that game. I was like, well, when are you coming back? He's like, oh, I'm just going to be there a few days. I'm coming right back. I'm like, all right. I don't typically go watch my cameras. I decided to this time. So I pulled in the median, and I watch, and. And as soon as I get out of my car, the dude says, please don't find it. Please don't find it.

[Brent]

No. I was just about to follow up Brett's thing. Where did. Any getaway that you knew were there?

[Tyler]

So thank God for guys in Pennsylvania. They saved my ass. They stopped it. And he had, like, 15 pounds of heroin in the. The gas tank. And that's when I learned that sending units not always under the back seat. Sometimes you have to lower the gas tank to get to them. But this guy had cut holes in the top of his gas tank and dropped his kilos.

[Brent]

Wait, so you were able to radio ahead. This car has got Now. Okay, great question. Him saying, please don't find it. Please don't find it. Is that. Is that reasonable suspicion to stop that car? I. I mean, they probably got.

[Tyler]

Yeah. I don't know. On their end. I mean, I think that's a hell of a compelling. I mean, what are you begging me not to find at that point? You know what I mean? It can't be your groceries.

[Kenny]

It's not your grocery.

[Tyler]

In my mind, that's something criminal. Please don't find it. Like, what else are you going to be begging a cop not to find in your car?

[Brent]

Oh, that's awesome, dude.

[Tyler]

No, not really.

[Brent]

Well, I mean, did they take the hit? Did they take the seas, or did you get it?

[Tyler]

I mean.

[Kenny]

Yeah, that's a good question.

[Tyler]

And I didn't.

[Kenny]

So they can have the.

[Brent]

That did not go in your stat sheet.

[Kenny]

The kilo of gold. Okay, Is that kilo total or one stop? That a kilo of gold?

[Tyler]

It's one stop with A kilo.

[Kenny]

So you. It's only once out of all your stops, there's only one that had pure gold. I gotta hear about it.

[Brent]

Was it illegal?

[Tyler]

So there was money with it. So he was. Michigan had passed a law, basically, and I don't know the whole ins and outs, but basically, even with a criminal history, if you're traveling with anything under $50,000, they couldn't seize it even if they knew that that was proceeds from narcotics or whatever it was. So I think that that's why this dude had it. But he had like $49,000 cash concealed in like. Like boxes that were like. Used to be, like, I don't know, like merchandise. I forget what it was like a DeWalt drill. So, like, the drill was gone. The money was in there, bundles of cash, and then he had a kilo of gold hill elsewhere. It was like made into a necklace with a big charm on it. So my guy.

[Brent]

This guy likes to tow the line.

[Tyler]

So my guess is what he was doing is anticipating wouldn't get stopped. If he was to get stopped in Michigan, it was $49,000, okay. They couldn't seize it. And then the extra gold was to buy actually what he wanted to buy in some type of psychotic or contraband and then get that back home.

[Brent]

You think you just travel with 48, just bring it down one more thousand.

[Kenny]

You just want to make sure safety net is it. So what. What gave you the, you know, the premise to seize that money? I mean, if it's not, it can't be illegal. Just have money and drill boxes. Odd. Odd as can be, but can't be illegal. What's crossed the boundary into illegal?

[Tyler]

So it's not illegal at all. You could have millions of dollars. It's not illegal.

[Kenny]

Okay.

[Brent]

When I do not have that.

[Kenny]

I.

[Brent]

Don'T have that problem.

[Kenny]

Letting me know in case.

[Tyler]

Yeah, when. When cops find large amounts of money, that starts the investigation. What we have to do on the back end is try it to a criminal nexus. And if we can't do that, then we give it back.

[Kenny]

Right.

[Tyler]

So the way that we do and tie it to a criminal nexus is basically lots of people that are moving money have never been arrested. If they're. Especially if there's a large DTO they're not putting. You just got popped up five kilos. Now you can run money like, that's not how it works because it's easier for us to make that connection. But a lot of times what happens is some federal agency or some narc unit has A phone identified, that's our guy, that's our target. They sit there and listen to wires all day every day. And what happens is the guy that money is calling, the guy with kilos. Okay, so now we have this guy, kilo level dealer identified as say whatever Steve deals kilos.

[Kenny]

Right.

[Tyler]

I stop a guy, they see this number that's coming in connecting to this phone.

[Kenny]

Okay.

[Tyler]

But they don't know who that is. So therefore the back end investigation is where the actually the asset forfeiture takes place. Now if I find a bunch of dope, that's pretty much the end of the investigation. That's it. But if you find money, that's the start of your investigation.

[Brent]

So you have to like reverse engineer it 100%.

[Tyler]

Yep, exactly.

[Brent]

But I feel like that the scene in the hangover where there's all those like triangles and math equations.

[Kenny]

But, but from hearing you right, you seize the money and if you can't find a reason, you have to give it back. So you can seize it off suspicion and then you give it back. Or you have to, you have to, you have to connect those dots before you seize it.

[Tyler]

Yeah. The way the asset like almost roadside, you have to have at least some type of reasonable suspicion to keep it. I can't just say like I have to have more. So he, I mean for me as a cop, like just stopping him like before I even get into the car and ask him like I've already, I'm hopefully that I met that reasonable suspicion. Sometimes, you know, like in, in my state, I don't have to have a reasonable suspicion to ask you for consent as long as I ask it during the course of the traffic stop, of course I want it. And if you deny me and I don't have reasonable suspicion, then you're free to go. But before I even get into the car, I'm having some type of reasonable suspicion and either it's going to be consent, dog alert, whatever it is, if I search this and find money, then I automatically call an investigator who does all that back end stuff for me.

[Kenny]

I, I hope our listeners agree. I got like, like this, like these finite details you know of a stop and an interdiction work are really like the most interesting to me. What you can do, what you can do, what, what you can't do, but what you can do to get, to get there. That sounds a little confusing.

[Brent]

I wonder if criminals are going to listen to this.

[Kenny]

That's the thing about that is like you, I know I can't do this. I can't go straight to this, but I can get there by, you know, by, by going, by going this, this route and, and my reasoning and, and my logic, like, I'll get there eventually. Maybe it's not as straightforward as, as, as you'd like it to be. I'm not even talking about going into a gray area.

[Tyler]

Yeah, no, I'm thinking like, law enforcement isn't always so linear. So you know what I'm saying? Like, if, if I'm going through my stop and I'm like, oh man, you know, I've seen this before and this is typically like a guy that has kilos or marijuana. Then all of a sudden, like I get in the car, I'm not finding anything, and then I have to go and like, kind of like, all right, now I have to refine my search and look for aftermarket compartments or things along those lines.

[Brent]

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[Kenny]

You are clear to engage with weapons.

[Tyler]

You're clear to engage with weapons.

[Brent]

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[Kenny]

I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll say it better this way, you know, and into like a, like a case, like an actual like scenario so it's easier. So you could be like, come up to me like, hey, can I search your car? Like this is so you get, you get a stop where he's like, no, you can't. Well, without problem solving, you're like, oh well, he said I can't search his car. Nothing I can do about it. Guess stops over, you know, like so. And now it's not so A to B. Like how do I search his car now even though I know he's doing something wrong? He said I couldn't Search his car. So how do I get there? Like, which is again, not going into grayer, going into problem solving. How can I legally get to what I need to do? And I think whether it's cqb, you know, hostage rescue, interdiction, anyone that's good at their job, problem solving is always the common denominator.

[Brent]

I think it's a natural ability to do it. You love doing it and you're. And you practice and you become very skilled at your craft. Those three things. I think you can be the best at what you do because I mean that's the same thing as, you know, the homa. The homa or the homicide detective chewing on a cigar going, wanna know what happened? That happened that? And they're like, how the. This guy piece all that together? And it's all those things. It's his 20 years experience doing it, his natural ability. He's just good at it. Like, can you. Is interdiction something that you can teach to and have him be very successful in interdiction? Or does it have to be something where people are good problem solvers?

[Tyler]

Like Brent was saying, I think communication is huge. Like, so I think that for interdiction you need to have someone that is very. Has the ability to communicate and not necessarily like talking, but instead of always like, cops were always like waiting to say something. Like actually step back and don't have anything planned and let them tell you the story. Because most times you stop someone. Like, I don't know how many times I've stopped someone and they tell me this entire. I'm like, this is the reason I. And I can't even get out of my mouth travel plants.

[Brent]

I'm like, I'm not going to New York, I'm going to Chicago.

[Tyler]

I literally said I couldn't even finish my statement of why I stopped you. And you just told me this entire rehearsal story. And cops always try to, I think, over talk instead of just taking a step back and letting that whole thing unfold. And I think communications, but I also, I don't know, I feel like in any aspect of life, if you're motivated and have the desire to do something and you put in the time and effort, I think that that's where it has to be. I think you can train someone only so far. Their own motivations and desires to have success in whatever that field is, has to take over at some point.

[Brent]

I mean, because I've met some cop, my brother is one of them. My brother can get dope from a grandma. And I don't know how he does it. And I work with guys that are just, they're, you pull, they're not going to get anything out of this car. And they're like, they put the bag on the hood and you're like, damn it.

[Tyler]

Like, I think it's communication. And I also think once you see that, that stop and you see that, that kilo, that first kilo from start to finish, like, things just click differently then, like, you start to read people better and understand it.

[Kenny]

Bear with me for a second. I'm going to get to it. I think a little bit of luck is involved too. And that's what I mean about luck. Because obviously there's nothing lucky about being a hard worker. There's nothing lucky about being a master of your craft. But you can have all those and not get the experience required to really further it. And so what I mean by luck is, do you feel like when you get those type of numbers that you kind of lucked out by having a high trafficked route that allowed you to gain a lot of experience? Is, is there a particular route that goes through your area? It's like, it's just a high trafficked route. I got, I was lucky to do all the hard. I was, I did all the hard work and I was lucky to have a route in my backyard.

[Tyler]

100. I mean, there, there's major corridors all over the country, but where I particularly work, there's three major highways that connect, okay, north, south, east, west, and then one that kind of bends around them. But so, like, guys don't necessarily have that kind of, you know, huge opportunity.

[Kenny]

Yeah, we'll call it. Yeah.

[Tyler]

I mean, fish in a barrel. Yeah. Like, then guys down south, I mean, of course they're gonna have, you know, there's no lie. That's where the majority of our narcotics are coming from. So it's almost a shocking effect. But then if you have the ability to work kind of where I do, you have three different highways and then you can kind of pick and choose, like, all right, this one's not doing well. I can go to this one and change the scenery.

[Kenny]

And unless it's open information, I don't expect you to tell me that the state you work in. But I'm assuming you don't, that you don't work in Texas.

[Tyler]

I do not.

[Kenny]

And that's what's a little bit crazy to me because. And maybe tell me why I feel like all this stuff should be caught in Texas. Maybe because that's, that's where, you know, you think that would be like the, the origin of, of the corridor. It sounds, it starts down south and that's where it initially gets into our country. But you're finding this stuff, we'll just say way further north. Why. Why is, why is that you're able to find so much stuff further north and it's not more and they're not catching it earlier.

[Tyler]

I just feel that the, they're so overwhelmed.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

And, and in the grand scheme of things, I know that you guys had a. What's it, Steve Murphy on. Yeah. And the War on Drugs. I don't, I, I don't think it's all for not. But we're stopping maybe 10 at the high end of what is coming in this country. And I feel like those guys down south are just so overwhelmed with it that, you know, if you have, I don't know, say, 100 great interdictors, those guys are going to be tied up in court. Those guys are going to be, you know, at hit loads. They. They're off the road and they just don't have. There's not enough people out there to do what I feel like.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Brent]

What's the, what's the longest cold streak you've ever had? Well, and I'm not talking like a, like a dope seizure. I'm talking like one of your big ones where you're like, damn, if I don't get something, I'm gonna have to plant. No, I'm just kidding.

[Tyler]

You're gonna use that as a.

[Brent]

I.

[Tyler]

Would say 45 to 60 days or so. So like, those are the ones that like, I'm like, man, I lost it. I should just quit.

[Brent]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

So fr.

[Brent]

Well, and here's another thing too, is a lot of guys, when they tell their big fish story, they're leaving out the fact that they had great intelligence that that car was going to be crossing somewhere or something along, like where to fish. Like. Right. And like specifically that fish is going to be in that pond. You might want to go fish over there.

[Tyler]

So I, I work very close with some specifically. They wanted me give them a shout out. So group 73, where I work out the DEA office. And they always have my back because they've watched me work and watched me progress. I think I forget how many, but say 300 to 350 seizures. I've had 16 or 18 whisper stops.

[Brent]

What's a whisper stop?

[Tyler]

Hey, watch out for this car.

[Brent]

Oh, yeah.

[Tyler]

So like, and those guys know. So sometimes people, I don't know if they're busting the balls or injustice or being honest that they think these are whisper stops. They'll come to my defense because they're like, no, bro, no, we didn't give it to him.

[Brent]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

So, like, they know my stats so that, you know, like, I bust the feds balls often, but, like, there's a lot of good ones and a lot of. Well, a lot of our guys said were previously cops and now they're the feds and that I just feel like those guys are more dedicated, willing and hard workers on the federal level because you get some feds that don't do a great job and they take a lot of time off the.

[Kenny]

And this is something that I know from. Nothing's better, nothing's more rewarding than doing the job yourself and getting. And getting, you know, getting results. That's always the most gratifying. But I would say what a close second is. Obviously we, we said it like, you, you instruct on this as well. One of the coolest things that happened now in my life since I'm no longer cool and do anything of relevance, is to go train someone and get a call to say, hey, like, I, I did. I, I did this, that, that you said, and I got these results that I wouldn't have got without you. And thank you.

[Brent]

It's.

[Kenny]

It's. It's truly rewarding. I'm hoping you, you get those phone calls or you've heard back, like, because I listen to your class. Your class was really, really good about all the, the different indicators, types of cars, different traps. Like, yeah, it was a good course. And I'm sure, you know, if they didn't get to see it, you know, they would have never seen it or never known unless they heard from you.

[Brent]

What's. What, like, what are indicate. Like, what do you look when you're sitting in the median and it's like. And you're like, trying not to get sick watching all these cars. What are some, like, just easy indicators that, like, all right, that's a good car to stop.

[Tyler]

So it, I think it's all area dependent too.

[Kenny]

But answer my question first.

[Brent]

Yeah, you go on these long solutions.

[Tyler]

When it comes to Brent, I absolutely love those. There's something that I've always wanted to accomplish. Like, I create bucket list to keep the job fun. Like, I truly do. I create buckets. This is what I want to do, this, want to accomplish, and so on. So I've never been able to accomplish this. But I've had six people in my class that have stopped children from Being trafficked. So getting those texts or calls about, hey, like this isn't. You know, they're always like, oh, this isn't dope related. But I'm like, this is way more like, I would trade all of those things.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

If I could have. This could happen once, if I could do it personally. But those, those are always like super memorable. And it's been six and I just can't wait for the seventh, honestly. And when it comes to you. Sorry, but.

[Brent]

Well, my answer is not gonna be that good.

[Kenny]

So.

[Tyler]

So for me, when I'm looking at cars, it's area independent. Like, so for me, most people that are coming through my area are trying to betray a business Persona. Like, so they're wearing suits. They're wearing.

[Brent]

Really?

[Tyler]

So like, yeah, they'll be decked out in suits. Single occupant cars trying to blend in. Very plain. Jane. Now people down in South Texas might be looking at cars that are like oil field. You put that up by me, that's going to stand out like a sore thumb. Like so most. It's going to be area dependent a lot of times on what people are trafficking. Like, I've had people that come by me, suit jacket. I get them stopped. They're wearing sweats and flip flops.

[Brent]

Of themselves in the window.

[Tyler]

Yeah. Like they're just playing the odds that they're not going to get stopped.

[Brent]

And then it's like, that's got to be an indicator. Get your pants.

[Tyler]

Like it's, it's things like that. But I mean, until people started showing me what to look for in order to see it.

[Brent]

The most unsuspicious cars are the ones that 100. Yeah. Okay.

[Tyler]

My. Like the oldest person I got caught trafficking was 76. The youngest was 1776.

[Brent]

So there's just nothing. It's all. It's everybody.

[Tyler]

It's the human behavior, though, aspect of it that you gotta, you gotta focus on. Like, I like when cars are coming by, most people wave at you, give you the finger, or don't acknowledge you. Then all of a sudden you'll see the guys that are approaching you that are like trying to conceal themselves or like comforting themselves, doing like. That's what I like. I like to see comforting or concealing. The moment they go by, you're concealing.

[Brent]

Everybody slows down. So that's not even a thing slowing.

[Tyler]

Yeah, but it's at. If it's slowing down, obstructing the flow of traffic is a difference. Like, so if everyone's going 90 and everyone's like, Simon, that's different, but it's. You'll see. There'll be a car, I don't know, seven cars in a row. All of a sudden, like, three, four, and five start to like.

[Kenny]

It's.

[Tyler]

It's not that the other one's sped up. It's that this one is gradually slowing down. It's something that's jamming on the brakes. It's so. It's. It's just more subtle things that you're trying to pay attention to.

[Kenny]

Are you running radar at the same time?

[Tyler]

Just.

[Kenny]

Just to see, you know, speeds and change of speeds?

[Tyler]

Yeah. So I do have my radar running, but it's more to gauge that change. So I'm. I'm not looking for the guy that's going 120. I want the guy that's going, you know, 75, trying to go with the flow traffic. And then all of a sudden he starts to reduce speed. And then as he goes by me, he's dropped from 75 to 65.

[Kenny]

Right.

[Tyler]

It's a very gradual thing, but the radar helps me with that.

[Brent]

Yeah. And everybody else is still cruising.

[Tyler]

You're like, what the hell is one guy doing?

[Brent]

Oh, yeah, that makes sense because usually I. The first indicator, there's a cop up there. Is everybody slamming, right?

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Brent]

So everybody in a pack mentality is like. But when everybody's like, I see a cop, I'm gonna go five under. And then one guy goes, I'm going 15 under.

[Tyler]

You start to see cars passing this one claw. There it is.

[Kenny]

Has.

[Tyler]

Has every.

[Kenny]

Has anyone ever done something so. Sped so much? Just did something and stupid in front of the road. And now you're imagining, like, I'm not here to give someone a ticket. But I can't ignore that. I don't even want to do this. And you're making me.

[Tyler]

Yeah, you have those moments where, like, you're sitting there and guys go by you and they're flying.

[Kenny]

Right.

[Tyler]

And then if you don't want to do that, if you don't stop him, like, everyone's, like, looking at you.

[Brent]

Like, are you the police?

[Tyler]

Like, all right. Like, I get up there and I'm.

[Brent]

Like, there's a cop.

[Kenny]

When you.

[Tyler]

So I'll like, pull him over and kind of just give him the talk and do. You making me do this right now, man. Like, I don't want to be doing this.

[Kenny]

Are.

[Brent]

Are pursuits a thing where you are. Not your agency in particular, but in the areas. Yeah.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Brent]

What's that? Like, so you gotta murder someone in Front of me for being media able to chase you.

[Tyler]

No, not, not by us, man. Like, yeah, you. You run. They're chasing you.

[Brent]

Really?

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

So everyone's a state trooper.

[Tyler]

I'm not a huge pursuit person just because I had something early in my career happen where a young kid died. So I, I hate him. And it's just a mental thing for me. So I don't. I try not. I try not to get pursuits at all. But. And it's only because of that one incident. It's kind of.

[Brent]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

You know, like.

[Kenny]

Yeah, I, I hate the. I don't say I hate the troop debate. I hate the, the whole situation. You tell me. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Brent]

I think the lax rules in law enforcement created the excessive running.

[Tyler]

I agree.

[Brent]

I think if we had never relaxed the rules, maybe throughout time cops realized like maybe for property, drug traffic, maybe it's not worth chasing to the wheel of fall. But don't blank it. We can't chase anybody because now everybody runs and now there's no catching up to it. No.

[Kenny]

And leave it as like, you know, leave it as an internal sop not something. I don't think they should have ever announced it.

[Tyler]

Oh, 100. Yeah. I think, I think saying like we're no longer chasing. It's like criminals like I'm gonna go do whatever the fuck I want and run because now like I'm not going to get caught.

[Brent]

They run for the dumbest.

[Tyler]

Yeah, they honestly do.

[Brent]

I wasn't even to write you a ticket for that one.

[Kenny]

I'm not going to lie. I was. When we last warehouse was like 2am and long night of work. I did an illegal U turn and I was just about to get on i4 and there was a cop at the gas station and saw me.

[Brent]

Damn. I got dedicated.

[Kenny]

And there was a moment in time where I thought he. I, I saw him. He's a local cop. He's not gonna, he's not gonna pursue me for a linen legal U turn. I think, I think it was a red. I think it was a red arrow as well. And I was like, I'm just gonna go. Like, I don't, I don't have to deal with this. And I was like, whoa, hold on. What are you doing?

[Tyler]

What are you doing?

[Kenny]

Hold on. You can't, you know, if this goes wrong, you can't. This will be. But, but like it was a fleeting. It was a fleeting thought and you're thinking it and I'm all biden, you're.

[Brent]

Thinking it Everyone, Yeah, you know, he.

[Kenny]

Just came up to me. It's 2am I'm doing something illegal. Like usually, you know, I don't. You're drunk. I wasn't, you know, he was super cool. He didn't write me a ticket. He's like, what are you doing? And I'm like, long day of work.

[Brent]

Making a conscious decision to break a traffic.

[Tyler]

That's right.

[Brent]

I'm sorry.

[Kenny]

There was nobody coming. I just want to get home. He's like, you've been drinking. I, I wish I was. I've been at work till 2am he was like, get out of here.

[Brent]

Nice.

[Tyler]

And I think that that comes into play with like just the, the not there's no fear of going to prison. Like even, even you. Like a completely law abiding sin. Be like, well, if I run, they're not going to chase me, so I'm not going to go to jail.

[Brent]

Even then, Even if that. So it's dark. He's behind you. Cops. 99% of cops tell the truth. If I, if I can't identify in the car, I'm not sit there and say I can. So he's behind you. It's dark. He's not going to be able to ID you. So he's going to get your tag the set. They're going to do an ATC at your house or intend to contact at your house. Maybe they're going to try and put you in that wheel. But at the end of the day, if you go, I leave my keys in my ignition. Someone must have just taken my car for a joyride. That's it. That I mean, and they can still be like, you know what you. And arrest you. It's not gonna hold up in court.

[Kenny]

Yeah. It's just, that's what, but that's what I hate about it is that once, once you can't set a precedence of, of that and let criminals go with no, you know, with no accountability. But man, anytime, you know, an innocent civilian gets hurt and gets caught up in this, everyone's always going to go, well, was that worth it?

[Brent]

And I say that, and I say this to anybody that's like we should be chasing, I say, okay, that's fine. If you can look me in the eyes. If a, if a police cruiser careened into your family and killed all of them, would you still not be mad at the cops? If you can say that to me, like, I would not buy the police, and by all means keep your argument, but everybody in the right mind will go, no, I Would be pissed that that cop just killed my own family or even a fleeing suspect for a property crime and it's just not worth it.

[Kenny]

And even though at the end of the day I'm on the side of, of, of chasing because I just, I think that's the, the better culture to have. I still will see videos of people who can chase and go through neighborhoods at like 90 miles an hour. Don't chase here.

[Brent]

Or parking lots.

[Kenny]

Oh God.

[Brent]

Have you ever seen like a, like a, like a mall parking lot where you would mark 10 and like anybody can walk out there?

[Tyler]

Yeah, but like ours is the. Whoever the boss is on, on patrol makes that decision. Theoretically our, I think our rules and regs basically if they committed a felony. But as soon as you run from us, it's a felony. So I don't really.

[Brent]

Yeah, you have to have the pre.

[Tyler]

Felony unless they've changed it. Like it's just the felonies.

[Brent]

Well, here, here if one runs, okay, watch commander or somebody or a sergeant maybe will go like, what are your charges? And they're like, is it just traffic? Like. No, it's the fleeting. Fleeting and eluding, right? No, no. What's your charges before the fleeing? It's a traffic infraction. All right. No, it's done. It's like they don't count the felony that just happened in front of you. But here, most I know in Florida or most parts of Florida, I should say Central Florida is forcible felonies, which is like they're violent crimes like a rape or a robbery. If I can piece together, even if I don't see it, if I could piece together, if I'm there taking the report and you're bloody and you're telling me what happened and my buddy goes red charger within 30 seconds of it happening or 5 minutes or depending on the area. Yeah, you could. It's up to the watch commander. Yeah, I'm behind the car, he's running. Watch commander. Typically they won't risk it, but sometimes a cowboy will go pursuit authorized because of just the base. What do you call that? The totality of it. Totality. Circumstances. Yep.

[Tyler]

What I thought Florida highway patrol was like pitting cars and chasing them.

[Brent]

Well, I meant municipalities.

[Kenny]

That's right. That was my state trooper.

[Brent]

You know what's so funny is like Florida highway patrol used to be the guy that wrote tickets, did crashes and the deputies were out there getting dope arrests and doing all the fun stuff. It is flip flop to where now central Florida agencies are so tied up Their hands are so tied they can't do anything that troopers are like well we're going to come into your territory and we're not on the same radio frequency. So all of a sudden you'll get all these calls coming in and like this big crash involving police and you're like what? And you go and dude, they're just pitting dudes in the hood like getting guns and dope. Like it's, it's pretty cool.

[Tyler]

What, what changed that climate? Was it the politicians? Was it the administrations for fhp? No, both. Like how did, how did they both.

[Brent]

Flip flop basically I think liberal policing and then somebody probably high up in the echel Florida highway patrol was like well we have to do something about you know, this.

[Kenny]

So someone's got to do it.

[Tyler]

Yeah, yeah, someone's got to do it.

[Kenny]

When it comes to. Yeah. You've been doing this at least part time since 2012, right? The interdiction piece.

[Tyler]

Yep.

[Kenny]

So you know, was it 13 years? So in 13 years I would imagine that once they get caught over and over doing you know, one thing with, with their traps that, that they evolve based off of, of what's get. How much evolution have you seen in 13 years? And does it happen gradually to where you can still kind of see it or do you is it times where it's just a big jump and you're like oh this is new. All right. This is now on my radar. Like how does evolution of, of interdiction work?

[Tyler]

I think with when it comes to compartments it's a circle.

[Kenny]

Okay.

[Tyler]

So like things we'll see here and then they'll go away and then they'll come back. It's just like a big circle. Like certain areas they might have different accesses, they might have different concealments but again the car is made only one way. Like you know, they're not maybe with the new electric ones. I know I have not personally but some of the guys down south have hit like Teslas with where they remove the batteries and put compartments in there and like that.

[Brent]

So wait, how does the Tesla run without a battery?

[Tyler]

Well they put it, they basically put enough battery in it to get them from point A to point battery or to at least get it. Yeah, get it running and then they'll remove the other portions. I don't know. But yeah, so like those types of things where those are those, those were huge jumps but everything else is kind of just a circle. They'll be like okay and now whether is it us that we hit this compartment and we Hit it for an extended period of time. And then we hit a different compartment and they're still using this, but now we're focused on this. Yeah, this, this other compartment. I don't know, but it's almost like a circle for, for me anyways.

[Kenny]

And so kind of what you're saying, at the end of the day, there's only so many places that you can hide things. You can change up your access to, you know, to that, to that free space, but you know the spaces. So it doesn't really matter necessarily if they, if they change up how they hide what they hide it in you. It's the space that's consistent.

[Tyler]

Yeah. They're still going to have to use some type of natural void in the car, right? Yeah, down. It's going to. Yeah.

[Kenny]

Okay.

[Tyler]

So they might conceal, they might move the access. They might move whether it's electric or Bondo or whatever it is. But. Yeah, but it's still good. It's still going to be an access somewhere to get into it.

[Brent]

Yeah. Your average street cop is not gonna have the patience to like, I mean I, I've been.

[Tyler]

The first time you hit one and you're like, pull a keel auto car, you will have the patience.

[Kenny]

Yeah, it's like fish, it's like fishing for the first time. Like, I can't do this all day. Then you get, then you get a fish. You're like, I, I'll be here for three more hours.

[Tyler]

Exactly, Exactly.

[Brent]

What's the, what's so like, I know you said you haven't had, you haven't rescued anybody from human trafficking yet, but you've had a bunch of people that you've taught hat what's the indicator? Because I know Brett, you're in the industry, but I don't know if you study traffic patterns, but is there any like similarities for narcotics smuggling with human smuggling?

[Tyler]

So I can only talk about third hand, but a lot of that is the same human behavior. Like they have to, they can't tell you the truth, so they have to be deceptive. They can't tell you. Yes, I just drove from New Jersey to California to pick up this 14 year old girl and I'm taking her back to my house. I have to have some type of story. I have that same thing with narcotics. They can't say I just drove to pick up kilos. So that's what a lot of it is, that normal conversation during a traffic stop. If you're able to pick up on that human behavior that they're, they're Putting off that, you know, they're being deceptive because they can't tell you the truth. I can only speak third hand, but that's basically what they're saying. So they. During that course of the traffic stop, they thought they didn't realize it was the human traffic element until. Until after the fact. And they're like, wait, wait, everything else is here. Let's separate the girl or the guy.

[Brent]

Or whatever, because they have two, at least two humans to read now.

[Tyler]

Yes. So now let's separate this person and find out if they're.

[Brent]

Where's the dope? I don't care. They could be a traffic. Where's the dope?

[Tyler]

That's probably where it started at. And then they're like, well, wait, like, this isn't making sense.

[Kenny]

It's so funny you say that because that's. That's exactly what. What, what I've always said. Trafficking is trafficking. It doesn't matter if you're trafficking terrorists, you know, slash violence. It doesn't matter if you're trafficking humans, guns, drugs, illegal timber. Like it there. It's.

[Tyler]

Which is.

[Kenny]

You have no idea how big the. There are gangs that have stopped doing gang work and have gone to illegal timber around the world. It's so lucrative. Really, it's crazy.

[Tyler]

Wow.

[Kenny]

But it doesn't matter. Networks are networks. It doesn't matter what you're moving. They all act the same.

[Brent]

Okay?

[Kenny]

You're still a network. You're still trying to move something illegally, still trying to get some from. From A to B. There can be some nuances based on the size of it, but, man, what.

[Brent]

Are you doing with all this timber?

[Tyler]

I didn't even know that's the thing.

[Kenny]

Oh, I could go on a long rant.

[Brent]

Wait, so illegal timber, is that. Does that tie into other networks or is that just timber and Uncle Sam wants his. His tax on it.

[Kenny]

It's China, actually. China is the biggest intake of. Of illegal. Of illegal timber.

[Tyler]

So it's funny you said that. I just stopped the dude recently, and he was from China and he was in Kentucky buying timber. Is that, like, normal? Because I was like.

[Brent]

I was like, that's the one that got away.

[Kenny]

We're gonna get into a weird rab, and I don't want to go too far, but the. That's why the. The large timber yards, Lowe's, Home Depot, and large timber yards in America, like, we now have like a. Like a certification that this. That it came through this chain, and so we know this was ethically sourced. You know that that old Buzzword China ethically sourced. Okay.

[Brent]

That's the issue.

[Kenny]

Yeah. So China doesn't care because they will go, they will go cross. Cross border into another country and just cut down all their timber and res and, and like reserved areas that are, and they will clean it out.

[Brent]

Okay.

[Kenny]

Then they will put it on a boat and send that thing to China and make millions.

[Brent]

Okay. Wow, you just missed the big hit, man. The big pot.

[Kenny]

Yeah. This took a weird turn, but yeah.

[Brent]

With timber, you let go for sure.

[Kenny]

The, your podcast. Yeah. How, how, how'd you get into, how'd you get into podcasting? Like, you know, I'm gonna do a.

[Tyler]

Podcast, so I was asked to be on a bunch of podcasts and I enjoy it.

[Brent]

You were on mine.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Brent]

Well, you were on ours. He was one of my first remote guests.

[Kenny]

Okay.

[Tyler]

Yep. But I, I enjoyed that avenue of it. I, I feel that as cops. So there's two things. I mean there's a selfish portion because I feel like I can then market my, the education company a little bit.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

And then the unselfish, which I like more is cops don't have long term conversations. You go talk to a cop, you're going to talk to him. 10 minutes if you're lucky. Now I get to see the, the inner cop, who, who he is. And I also get giving him in my mind a platform to, to make them seem like who they really are. We don't talk a lot about police stuff. I try not to. I mean cops are cops. But I often talk like, talk about where you grew up. Do you like sports? What did you do outside of the job? You know, all these other things. So that makes you more relatable to the, to the average person so that they can see that we're just normal people and we are the same as they are. We just have a job that has the ability to take away their freedom. A lot of people, I don't know, will hate on. I guess, you know, but, but we're so different than anyone else.

[Kenny]

Yeah. Shouldn't be taken lightly. But you're, but you're still.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

A person. You don't go to the police academy now you're a robot. That just, that just.

[Brent]

Well, one, one cool thing. It's already out there. So I mean, I know you probably don't like to talk about it too much. Is that, you know, we talk about all the time. A good cop is somebody that has been on the other side of it. And you know, I'll be, I'll, I'll say it I've been arrested same. And so, you know, you just, you know, like how detrimental it is to take away someone's freedom. You know, it's, it's, it's scary for someone who doesn't go to jail on the regular basis when they have, when they're handcuffed behind their back and they're sat in that car, you're like, my whole fucking life is over.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Brent]

And it takes people me and Kenny talked about on the first podcast a long time ago. Like it a good cop goes, dude, it ain't over. Your night's over, your week, your year might suck, but your life's not over fucking it. You make move on. And then I'll, even if it's a non heinous crime for someone who doesn't get in trouble a lot, I'll even go to the extent of going, I'm no lawyer, man, but here's what I would do. Show up to court, tell the truth, wear a nice suit. First off, that'll put you on a pedestal. No one dresses for court anymore. You know, give them, give them the blueprint to admit they made a mistake and own it. And then so it won't fucking crush them.

[Tyler]

Yeah, I mean, and I feel like if you've been down that route as a cop, you've been arrested, you've been in trouble, you're more empathetic, you're more understanding. People make mistakes, especially the misdemeanor. The courts are so forgiving if it's a one time incident, especially non violent type. But like, like those the courts are, are, are. I don't know, I, I feel like the judges are if like, hey, what do you want to do with your life? And like, oh, I want to be a cop. And they're like, well, this sucks. But you know what? You can do these steps and in the next four to five years, that goal could still be there for you. I made a mistake. You got to learn from it, move on.

[Kenny]

But oh, have you ever had to arrest someone where the crime was just like, I have to arrest. Like this is, this isn't even like a question, but the person themselves is like, man, I hate arresting this person. You made a mistake, you effed up. But man, this person clearly got caught up in the, in the wrong, you know, with the wrong people.

[Tyler]

I'm probably gonna sound like a dick, but there's a lot of the smugglers that I deal with I do feel bad for. I know what they're doing, they know what they're doing. But that's usually that they're vulnerable and.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

And someone else is preying on their vulnerabilities. It's not that they're a bad person. It's not like they've never been arrested. A lot of them in their life. And then they. I don't know how, but I, I guess I built a report and they open up to me and they tell me these things and I'm like, like, I feel terrible, but I.

[Kenny]

Right.

[Tyler]

I have a job.

[Kenny]

That's right. Yeah.

[Tyler]

Like, you know, like I truly do. And I feel awful for some of them and especially the ones that other people are playing. Preying on their vulnerabilities, knowing that they're vulnerable and they're taking advantage of them.

[Brent]

It was an argument for Breonna Taylor. I mean, I don't think she's as innocent as some of the people that you, that you've. We were talking about now, but I mean, even John Mattingly was like, you know, she was taken advantage of by the main guy. I forget his name. And she was just one pawn.

[Tyler]

Kenneth Walker.

[Brent]

Yeah, she was one pawn. And he had tons of girlfriends doing all this dirty work.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

And, and, and honestly, that's the way it is.

[Brent]

It's.

[Tyler]

People are very manipulative. You don't have good, honest people doing.

[Brent]

Selling drugs, selling drugs, trafficking.

[Tyler]

You know what I mean? Like, they're not moral beings. So now they're going to take. For whatever reason, they're good at manipulating people. And they're like, oh, you know, you don't have a job. You want to run this, you can get this. And you're looking at it like, I can't feed my kids. They're offering me ten grand to run the kilos across the country. That's a week of work that will last me a long time to help my kids out.

[Kenny]

Like, yeah.

[Tyler]

Like that type of thing.

[Brent]

I'm like, damn, you just wish they weren't stupid. Why did you make me do this? Yeah, yeah.

[Tyler]

Like I, Yeah, I do feel bad for them though.

[Kenny]

What's, what's, what's next for you? What's on your three to five year plan? What do you, what do you want for you? Because can't do this forever, but I don't know, maybe we're gonna stay until 30 years. What's your, what's your 35 year plan?

[Brent]

Let your admin know when you plan on leaving.

[Tyler]

They're good that we. My current administration has been nothing but supportive. And, and they do. They're like, well, you know, it's a ongoing conversation because I've always been the guy. It's like I'm doing 20 and I'm leaving and whatever that is after 20. That may be. But I mean, I, in the grand scheme of things, I would like to do 20 where I'm at. And some of the options, like, I've been offered opportunities to go work in a different highway, a different state, keep doing interdiction, maybe do something like that. I've been offered opportunities with private entities, but in the grand scheme of things, if I could keep the podcast going and the education avenue going. I know there's a shelf life when it comes to education, but the two people that I teach with, one is a lawyer and a current cop. So, like, he teaches case law. That's not going anywhere. Especially that he practices a lot.

[Brent]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tyler]

And the, the girl talks about. Her name's Heather Gold Glitch and Mike Brazil. But Heather talks about, you know, like leadership, empowering women, but not so, not like, not the way that you're going to think about empowerment. She talks about, like, if you're not doing everything the man's doing, then don't come to me and complain. Like, be on an equal pedestal. And then if you're not getting the things that they are. And then she also has an amazing story that I won't do it justice. But she was in, she was a cop. Her ex husband was a cop. Horrible situation.

[Brent]

And she usually is.

[Tyler]

And she. This is another level. You have to listen to hers. But like, she talks about, like the perseverance and stuff. So, like, those two can keep going. And if, if I can get, you know, as they retire, they can keep teaching. I just don't know if my shelf life on interdiction is going to be enough. Would you, three to five years after.

[Brent]

I retire, probably, would you like to transfer your skills into human trafficking?

[Tyler]

I would love to do that. Like, that's ultimately my goal. Like, if there's a way that I could make that happen and just explain to a cop level, like the communication and how important that is during a traffic stop, reading people, understanding these things. I think that, I think that transfers across the board. Like, that's something that I would absolutely embrace and love to do.

[Brent]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

Okay. Talk about job satisfaction.

[Tyler]

Oh, I could. Yeah.

[Kenny]

The last question for you, unless, Unless you got anything else.

[Brent]

That's the last, last question.

[Kenny]

I got a last, last question. Unless you got something else.

[Brent]

No, I'm good.

[Kenny]

You good?

[Tyler]

Cool.

[Kenny]

Give me a funny story. We have, we have our own. We have our own last questions, too.

[Tyler]

I see. So where I work, it's kind of became more populated. But when I first started working there, it was a mix of urban and rural, where there's farms. So I go on this call of a baby pig running around a gas station. I was like, oh, this is, like, entertaining, but what do you do? Easy to handle. I'm thinking like, it's a baby pig.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Brent]

Well, that.

[Tyler]

I thought a baby pig. It's like this big. I was thinking, you know, like. Well, the pig is a lot bigger than a baby, first off, bruh.

[Brent]

Gotta love those 911 calls.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

Way off.

[Brent]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

I chased that thing around for, like, 30 minutes in the parking lot, and I finally caught the thing. And I had no idea what pigs do. And they make the loudest screaming noise.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

I've ever heard in my life. And I instantly let it go. And we spent about another hour chasing the same pig.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

And one of the guys there has a photograph of it that I use in my class because. Yeah. It's been memorialized forever.

[Kenny]

Did you ever think about tasing it?

[Brent]

Nowadays, any cop would go, how was that law enforcement related?

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

We didn't even have tastes at that time.

[Kenny]

Oh, man.

[Brent]

At least you didn't shoot it. Nowadays we'd be breaking down Kenny on video.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Brent]

The guy that shot that dog.

[Kenny]

That's the first thing I thought of when you said that.

[Tyler]

Oh, that I love animals more than most people. So there's. That would have never. I would have chased that thing around for three hours before I shot it.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Brent]

Did anybody make the. The pig chasing pig joke?

[Tyler]

Oh, it's been around for it.

[Kenny]

Oh, my God, the memes.

[Tyler]

Oh, gosh. This was like. I mean, this was 2007 or 8.

[Brent]

So you were a baby pig.

[Tyler]

Oh, yeah. This was before we went even the BDUs. I was still wearing.

[Brent]

Your nice polyesters.

[Kenny]

Nice.