The Antihero Podcast — Scott Payne (Code Name: Pale Horse)

Date: September 8, 2025
Topic: Part Delta Force. Part Street Cop. All Truth.

Overview

This episode dives deep with Scott Payne, a former undercover FBI agent and law enforcement veteran whose 28 years on the job spanned street-level narcotics, infiltration of outlaw biker gangs, fighting corruption, and confronting domestic terrorism. Known for his straight talk and gripping stories, Scott ("Big Country"), joins hosts Tyler (Counterculture Inc.) and Brent Tucker (FRCC) to recount harrowing undercover operations, moral complexities, and darkly humorous anecdotes from the front lines.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Scott Payne’s Journey into Law Enforcement

• Background & Early Days
  • Played college football at Charleston Southern University; first law enforcement gig was with Greenville County Sheriff’s Office.
  • Undercover work began as a vice/narcotics investigator at the local level before jumping to the FBI for broader opportunities and higher pay.
  • Early lessons learned working as a bouncer: building interpersonal skills and street smarts.
• Quote:
  "I look and sound like trash, but on paper, I'm pretty good. And nobody was hiring white guys. That's what they told me." — Scott Payne (15:13)

2. Transition to Federal Law Enforcement

• Why the Move?

  • Frustration with local pay and stagnant career development.
  • Admired the FBI's SWAT and undercover training rigor and opportunities.
  • Quote:
    "If you don't lie, man, I mean you can five years, you're GS13." — Scott Payne (23:33)

• Challenges & Culture

  • Discusses differences in undercover process, training standards, and organizational culture across agencies.
  • Open about mental and physical toll: "I crashed. I ran out of wax, man." (90:51)

3. Undercover Work: Realities, Risks, and Ethics

• Street-Level Narcotics & War on Drugs

  • High-speed, dangerous operations with little time to prepare or vet suspects.
  • Skepticism about "winning" the war on drugs: "Can it be won? No. Can we thwart stuff? Yes." (31:23)
  • Observations on supply chains from Mexico and the devastating effects of opioids and fentanyl.

• On Wearing a Wire & Getting Made

  • Describes defensive, quick-witted techniques to stay safe; open discussion about fear, adrenaline, and life-or-death decision making.
  • Closest call: Nearly exposed in an Outlaws MC clubhouse strip-down.
    • "Because of the stress of the situation, the adrenaline dump. I forgot my middle name, which was insane because I knew it." (77:40)
    • Survived only through quick thinking and what he calls "divine intervention."

Memorable Training Point:

"You've got to know your limitations. Sometimes you're not the guy for the job." — Scott Payne (46:08)

4. Infiltrating Outlaw Biker Gangs

• The Outlaws MC Case

  • Two-year undercover operation in Massachusetts; invaluable insights into gang culture, risk tolerance, and relationship building.
  • Discusses how different chapters have contrasting criminal involvement; winning trust through "being sexy" (i.e., useful) to criminals.

• Tense, Defining Moment

  • Forced strip search by gang enforcers, while "wired to the hilt."
    • "Had I seen plastic, I probably would have just tried to fight my way out. Because in that world, to me it means if there's plastic on the floors... they're gonna kill me." (81:22)
    • Saved only when the would-be searcher failed to find hidden equipment.

• Impact of Undercover Work on Mental Health

  • Admits to a breakdown after years "without knowing how to decompress."
  • "Safeguard unit" debriefing — a program for psychological safety started by Joe Pistone (Donnie Brasco).

• On Building and Betraying Relationships

  • The sting ended with the arrest of closest confidant, highlighting the personal cost of undercover betrayal.
  • “One of the downsides of undercover is building those relationships that you got to betray.” (96:23)
  • Some former targets reach out, reconciled after serving time.

5. Corruption Investigations

• From Rural Dirty Cops to High-Level Bribery
  • Illustrated with stories (e.g., Tennessee operation: "They called me the Marlboro Man").
  • Describes systemic corruption, falling standards, and the need for constant vigilance against dirty cops.
  • "There's not a whole lot a good cop can't stand worse than a dirty cop." (105:44)

6. Reflections & Philosophy

• The Pendulum Is Swinging Back
  • Rise in pro-cop, pro-gun sentiment:
    "You see the pendulum swinging... it is, bro. Taylor Sheridan shows and the top shows... The Reachers and the Jack Ryans..." (12:43)
• Teamwork and Knowing Your Role
  • "Oddly enough, people think of undercover work as singleton-type things. But there's still a lot of teamwork." (47:06)
• Faith and Divine Intervention
  • Multiple near-misses attributed to “God, not odd.”
• Humor as Coping and Connection
  • Quick wit and self-deprecating humor as essential survival tools, both for cover and personal resilience.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On nearly being discovered while wired:

  • "I'm shitting gold bricks. But I'm talking, I'm not vapor locking... Just trying to buy time." — Scott Payne (79:19)
  • "The entire damn time I was in the clubhouse, do you know what song was blaring over the speaker system? 'Give me three steps.'" — (88:04)

• On the sacrifice of undercover work:

  • "I could have easily hit that proverbial fork in the road, I could have easily been the other side, which I think is what's helped me be good at what I was at." — Scott Payne (110:02)

• On community and trust:

  • "At the end of the day, it’s going to end up to human intelligence. And groundwork." — Scott Payne (60:24)

• On conflicting emotions with targets:

  • “There's still likable people. It's hard not to acknowledge that.” — Brent Tucker (97:24)
  • “In the book, I don't dehumanize... Some of those relationships, I mean, you really build.” — Scott Payne (97:29)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Early street cop stories and lessons: [15:00–18:00]
• Jump to the FBI and undercover bug: [18:00–23:30]
• War on drugs, the futility, and cartel insights: [31:00–36:30]
• The Outlaws MC infiltration and near-exposure: [74:52–82:09]
• Discussion on corruption within police ranks: [98:57–108:54]
• Reflections on the toll and weirdest moments: [110:02–115:43]

Notable Anecdote (Funny Story at Close)

• “Johnny Two Fingers” origin, as told in rural Tennessee:
  • “One day he's out there on the farm ... he gets behind a donkey. ... The donkey comes back and takes two of his fingers off.”
  • “Everybody knows that he's got two fingers missing because he was having sex with a donkey and the donkey bit his fingers off... And he still lives here? Why would you not move and change the story?” — (114:01–115:38)

Book & Where to Find Scott Payne

• Book: Codename: Pale Horse (Simon & Schuster, New York Times Bestseller; audiobook read by Scott himself)
  • “If you go on Amazon... top one will be me... Everything under it... China and everything else... make my face age with AI. If I look like that in about 20 years, that's pretty tough.” (112:18)
• Instagram/X/Threads/LinkedIn: @ScottPayneBigCountry

Tone and Style

The episode blends gritty, candid storytelling with banter and dark humor. The hosts are supportive but probing, giving Scott space to delve into operational nitty-gritty and raw reflections. There's mix of reverence for frontline law enforcement and healthy skepticism about government and systemic integrity.

For Listeners: Takeaways

• Undercover law enforcement is equal parts adrenaline, psychological warfare, and heartbreak.
• Success relies on adaptability, humility, and teamwork—no matter how "lone wolf" the job seems.
• The war on drugs and public corruption are ongoing, adaptive threats; the fight is never over.
• Even in darkness, there's room for humor and the occasional miracle—“Is it odd, or is it God?”
• Real heroes often bear invisible wounds and have stories that don’t fit the Hollywood mold.