Under And Alone w/Billy Queen

Summary

The Antihero Podcast: Episode Summary Title: Under And Alone w/Billy Queen
Host/Author: The Antihero Podcast
Release Date: August 4, 2025

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of The Antihero Podcast, titled "Under And Alone," host Bryn Tucker sits down with Billy Queen, a decorated veteran and former Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) special agent. Billy shares his harrowing experiences infiltrating the notorious Mongols Motorcycle Club (MC), offering an unflinching look into the dangers and moral complexities of undercover law enforcement operations.

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Billy Queen's Background

Billy Queen's journey is a testament to relentless dedication and service. With a rich history in the military and various law enforcement agencies, Billy's expertise provided him with the unique skills necessary for deep undercover work.

Billy Queen [06:00]: "You just can't stop. You just get bored easily or you just, you know, I must. I love it, though."

Billy's extensive career includes combat service in Vietnam, where he became a Green Beret, followed by roles as a police officer, border patrol agent, and over two decades with the ATF. Notably, 17 of those years were spent undercover, a testament to his resilience and commitment.

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Military Service

Billy's military service began in 1968 during the Vietnam War. His time in the 82nd Airborne Division exposed him to intense combat scenarios, including witnessing mass casualties and participating in perilous intelligence missions.

Billy Queen [10:50]: "I got back in that Jeep, rode back over to 82nd, said, Send me to Nam within 30 days."

Billy's proactive nature led him to volunteer for dangerous missions, exemplifying the courage and sacrifice that would later define his undercover operations.

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Transition to Law Enforcement and ATF Service

After his military stint, Billy pursued a career in law enforcement, joining the High Point Police Department before transitioning to border patrol in Temecula, California. His goal was clear: to follow in his father's footsteps and become an ATF agent.

Billy Queen [28:10]: "What happened? I was there about. For about a year and a half, and I wanted to be a police officer, so I joined the High Point Police Department."

Billy's dedication saw him overcoming rigorous training requirements, including mastering Spanish and maintaining peak physical fitness, preparing him for the challenges ahead.

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Undercover Work with the Mongols MC

Billy Queen's most notable role was his undercover infiltration of the Mongols Motorcycle Club. Over two years, he embedded himself deeply within the organization, taking on roles of increasing responsibility, ultimately becoming the secretary and treasurer of the San Fernando Valley chapter.

Billy Queen [55:23]: "You have to be willing to do whatever you have to do to make it work. And so playing by the rules... it ain't gonna work."

Billy meticulously built trust within the Mongols, participating in their illicit activities to gather crucial intelligence. This intense immersion exposed him to the brutal realities of gang violence, including assaults, armed robberies, and murder.

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Challenges and Moral Dilemmas

Living undercover blurred the lines between Billy's real identity and his fabricated persona, "Billy St. John." The psychological toll was immense, leading to isolation from his family and constant fear of exposure.

Billy Queen [76:37]: "The longer I was in, the more dangerous it got. And it finally got to the point where I couldn't go see my children anymore."

Billy recounts numerous perilous encounters, including attempts on his life by the Mongols who eventually recognized him as an undercover agent. These experiences highlight the extreme risks agents face when operating within hostile environments.

Billy Queen [80:11]: "What are you going to do? I mean, it's coming down to, you know, there's something serious now. The most serious thing that you can think of is about to happen."

His internal conflict intensified as he grappled with the necessity of his role juxtaposed against the personal sacrifices it demanded.

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Consequences and Reflection

Billy's undercover work culminated in significant successes for law enforcement, including the prosecution of 54 Mongols members for various crimes under RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act). However, the personal cost was devastating.

Billy Queen [107:15]: "To the people of California, it was worth it. Cause we took a lot of really bad people off the streets to ATF. It was worth it. But to Billy Queen, there was no way it was worth it."

Post-operation, Billy found himself estranged from his former life, with his personal relationships strained and his sense of self deeply affected by his undercover experiences.

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Current Affairs and Future Plans

Despite the immense personal cost, Billy Queen remains committed to serving his community. He is currently running for sheriff of Guilford County, leveraging his extensive background to address and combat organized crime effectively.

Billy Queen [116:55]: "I will make a difference."

Billy emphasizes the need for law enforcement personnel who understand the intricacies of criminal organizations, drawn from his firsthand experiences infiltrating and dismantling the Mongols MC.

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Conclusion

"Under And Alone" offers a raw and honest portrayal of the sacrifices and ethical quandaries faced by undercover agents. Billy Queen's story is one of unwavering dedication, highlighting both the triumphs and tragedies inherent in the fight against organized crime. This episode serves as a powerful reminder of the hidden battles waged by those we rely on to protect and serve.

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Notable Quotes

• Billy Queen [00:00]: "When you make the decision to put those colors down on, you're down for the club... There is no timeout."
• Billy Queen [55:23]: "You have to be willing to do whatever you have to do to make it work."
• Billy Queen [76:37]: "The longer I was in, the more dangerous it got."
• Billy Queen [107:15]: "To Billy Queen, there was no way it was worth it."
• Billy Queen [116:55]: "I will make a difference."

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Final Thoughts

Billy Queen's narrative in "Under And Alone" illuminates the profound personal and professional challenges faced by undercover agents. His courage and sacrifices underscore the relentless pursuit of justice, often at the expense of personal happiness and safety. This episode not only honors his service but also provides invaluable insights into the complexities of modern law enforcement.

Transcript

[Billy Queen]

I want you to understand. I know. I want everybody to understand. When you make the decision to put those colors down on, you're down for the club. Whatever they're going to do, I don't care what you say, if you're out, you got that patch on. They decide they're going to kill somebody, you're going to kill them right along with them. There is no timeout. There's no I'm only doing this on the weekend stuff. You're down for the club. Whatever they're going to do you. And it came down to that came down to murder. It came down to you're going to steal these guys motorcycles. You're going to. You're going to haul this dope.

[Tyler]

Hold on, we're not recording.

[Bryn Tucker]

Want to buy a rifle?

[Tyler]

Do you want to buy a shirt to support military dance? People want to see their sausage get made.

[Bryn Tucker]

An appropriate level of inappropriateness.

[Evil]

Something happens in my family tonight.

[Bryn Tucker]

The Delta Force isn't coming to rescue my family. My kids, like it is. First responders that are, that are going to save my family.

[Tyler]

They want the culture to be down. They want people that not want to be cops. And the people that do want to be cops are now walking into the job scared to do the job.

[Bryn Tucker]

I'm gonna try to act like it didn't happen, although we, we all know it did.

[Billy Queen]

JV team for life.

[Bryn Tucker]

Tyler, how many critical incidents do you think we've covered so far in this podcast, man?

[Tyler]

At least five.

[Bryn Tucker]

And they're not going to stop. You know, there's you, you cannot stop them all. So they're going to happen. And you really have, you know, two charters of that. Obviously, one is to stop them from happening, but since you can't stop them all from happening, you owe it to the people that you protect and depend on you to react to those situations in the most effective and efficient manner. And right now, really, whether you know, your fire department, ems, law enforcement, you're stuck with essentially radios.

[Tyler]

And Apollo is the best way to manage resources during these events because it's designed by first responders for first responders.

[Bryn Tucker]

It gives first responders a common operating picture, which allows them to see where everybody is in real time, overlaid onto a map to see where they are. You can drop pinpoints and let them know where they need to go. And without constant talking on the radio, everybody knows where the incident is, where it's happening, and where they need to be.

[Tyler]

Apollo is an app based application. This is just download and go.

[Bryn Tucker]

It's an app and so it works with androids, it works with iPhones.

[Tyler]

Apollo makes sure on the back end everything works and you can just plug and go. They handle all the licensing, all the encryption compliance, all the security. It's all handled by Apollo. It's crucial to know where everyone is and what they are doing in order to effectively control chaos in one of these either natural disasters or shootings or anything like that.

[Bryn Tucker]

So if you want to learn more about Apollo, scan the QR code and ensure your department is ready to react to any crisis in its most effective and and efficient manner possible.

[Billy Queen]

JV Team for life welcome back to.

[Tyler]

The Anti Hero podcast. Part Delta Force, part street cop. All truth. I'm Tyler, owner of Counterculture Inc. Go to Counterculture Inc. Threads.com use promo code Anti Hero and save 15 off in the best encounter culture. Graphic tees, stickers, hats, team room flags, ranger panties, hoodies. We have it all. Counterculture inkthreads.com for promo code Antihero and.

[Bryn Tucker]

I'm Bryn Tucker, owner of frcc. We do coffee, we do cigars, and now we also do bourbon. Head on over to FRCC shop and use promo code FRCC15. That's FRCC15 to get 15% off the world's best coffee, cigars and bourbon.

[Doc]

There you go.

[Tyler]

And of course this episode is brought to you by Human performance. Go to hp-trt.com use promo code HERO and save 20% off. Not just your first month of testosterone, but every single month after that. And if you've already done blood work within the last six months, you can upload that and they will waive your lab costs. So go to hptrt.com use promo code HERO and get that testosterone that you deserve.

[Bryn Tucker]

Also, don't forget the Thursday night lives. Every Thursday night starting at 8pm until till we say so, the songs run.

[Billy Queen]

Out of the song.

[Bryn Tucker]

Run out. That's right. That was for the boys. But all are welcome. And also if you want to continue to support us and see even more behind the scenes information, please consider joining our patreon.

[Billy Queen]

All right, that's it.

[Doc]

We go.

[Tyler]

You ready, Billy?

[Billy Queen]

I'm ready.

[Bryn Tucker]

Billy's just on the Thursday Night live with us last night, so you may, you may recognize him from that, although I wasn't there and I apologize guys about that. I got stuck in New York City, couldn't make it. Well, with us today we have Billy Queen who has absolutely run the gambit when it comes to public service. Spent some time in combat with Vietnam and his army service became a green beret after that. After that, spent some time as a police officer and then spent some time with border patrol. And if all that wasn't enough, you also put in over 20 years with the ATF. 17 of those years doing undercover work, two of which you spent with a motorcycle club called the Mongols. And if that wasn't enough service to community and country. You're also running for sheriff of Guilford County.

[Billy Queen]

We are.

[Bryn Tucker]

You just, you just, you just can't stop. You just, you just get bored easily or you just, you know, I must. I love it, though.

[Tyler]

You got to go off the motto, they gotta fire me or kill me.

[Doc]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

But I can tell you right there, I don't, I don't understand how it's. How it's much of a contest or I feel bad for the guy going against you because just, just that list right now, like, how do you, how do you, how do you run against that guy? How do you run against that guy? For sure.

[Tyler]

Especially for sheriff, if it was for anything else.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

Sheriff.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

That's the type of sheriff.

[Bryn Tucker]

For sure.

[Billy Queen]

No. Politics is a strange animal.

[Tyler]

Yeah, it is about as strange as.

[Billy Queen]

I'm just like y'.

[Doc]

All. Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

I'm a soldier, I'm a cop. And so the political arena is one I never danced in, so it's all new for me.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

What do they say the best indicator of. Of future success is? Past performance. So something tells you you're going to be all right.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

And if you can, if you could dance in the arena with undercover motorcycle clubs, you can probably figure out this. And in fact, let us know when it's done. You may come back and tell us. There's a. There's a bunch of odd similarities between the two.

[Billy Queen]

Odd similarities in the political arena.

[Doc]

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

Well, let's, let's. Let's kick it off and, and you know, I really want to, you know, spend a lot of time with the, the undercover work and the Mongols. That really interests me. And I think it's going to interest a lot of our viewers. But let's hit up some wave tops of how you got there. When did you join the army?

[Billy Queen]

1968.

[Tyler]

60.

[Billy Queen]

Back before I know all you people were even born. We got, we got some.

[Bryn Tucker]

We got some older veterans that.

[Tyler]

Listen, we do some retired guys.

[Doc]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

Or some guys that. That may be younger, but there's some old souls.

[Billy Queen]

They still.

[Bryn Tucker]

That still align. That still align probably better with you that they align with their. Their own generation.

[Billy Queen]

You know, you can. You have a tend get sour at times. But, you know, sitting down with. With young soldiers like yourselves, it makes me feel great.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

Makes me feel great. And I know there's a lot all around the country and you can let yourself get down, but hanging out with a bunch of old soldiers, Heck, yeah. Young soldiers, doesn't matter.

[Bryn Tucker]

You all got that in common, you know, and those stories are all, you know, it's easy to relate. Doesn't matter if it happened in Vietnam, you know, or in Afghanistan. Like those. Those stories are very relatable. Yeah, some. One of those things that. A lot of things have changed, but some things never change.

[Billy Queen]

The brotherhood.

[Bryn Tucker]

That's right, the brotherhood. What, What. What made you join.

[Billy Queen]

Join the Army?

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

Well, you know, my dad was a sailor in World War II, and my dad was an ATF agent, and I grew up around guns, and I. I thought everybody carried guns and everybody went places. I thought everybody's dad did that. And so it just seemed like the natural thing to do. I mean, Vietnam was going on hot and heavy, and I was going to try to make a difference. Matter of fact, my twin brother and I joined together right out of high school.

[Bryn Tucker]

Oh, really?

[Billy Queen]

Both volunteered to go to Vietnam.

[Tyler]

At that time, they're like, we don't have to draft you.

[Billy Queen]

Oh, wow. And the draft was on. The draft was on. And that's an altogether different story. But my twin brother and I, we both volunteered. Both volunteered for Vietnam. And he went. And at that time, they weren't sending twin brothers. They weren't going to send them to Vietnam. But he only made it about four months, and he was wounded severely. And at that time, I was with the 82nd Airborne Division, and they were really very good. Back then, during Vietnam, if you had relatives that were wounded and stuff, they kept up with them. You knew where they were. You didn't know how bad they were wounded. But they came. Came to me one day and said, billy, your brother's coming in at Pope Air Force Base. Been wounded. And they actually took me down there and we waited on the tarmac down there. C141 came in, dropped a tail on it, and wounded soldiers got off, some on canes, some of them being helped. But my brother, they took him off, he was on a stretcher, and he had been wounded several places in his back and his arms and stuff. He could. He's wounded severely. He couldn't sit up, and they set him down on the tarmac. I knelt over top of my brother and I said, I'll get payback for you, brother. I got back in that Jeep, rode back over to 82nd, said, Send me to Nam within 30 days. That's where I was.

[Tyler]

Quick house. It's amazing how quick they'll send you in combat.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

Yep.

[Bryn Tucker]

That's awesome. What, what, how long was your tour in, In Vietnam?

[Billy Queen]

One year.

[Bryn Tucker]

One year?

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

Would you describe that as a quick year or a long year.

[Billy Queen]

Or. At times. But I describe it as a really weird year. I really wasn't prepared for, for what I saw over there.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And not to get into it too much, but I was a kid. I wasn't used to seeing mass body counts like that. I just, I wasn't used to it. But, you know, I think the military did a good job because it didn't seem to affect me the first time. And I don't know if whether I get into this or not. First time I saw mass death over there, it was just that the stench was the biggest thing that stuck with me.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And ended up having to pick dead soldiers up. And I don't know whether, you know or not, but back then they had these wagons, we called them bread wagons and they had these slats in them where they put bodies in. And so we called one of those out. And this incident I'm talking about was right on the beach. And these guys had been in the water and they all spread eagled in the water and the waves came in and it washed their faces off. Their hair fell out. You couldn't even tell who they were. But I remember they didn't have enough body bags to put these guys in, so we had to pick them up and put them on stretchers.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And that was really terrible. That, that was really terrible. And so that.

[Bryn Tucker]

Someone's got to do it. I hate to say it, I mean, it sounds so callous to say that, but it's, but it's true. I mean, someone's got to do it.

[Billy Queen]

Somebody's got to do it.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

But you know, there were enough incidences like that. And I don't know what got into me, but I was a volunteer.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

When it came to the most dangerous thing that you could do when I was over, there would be intelligence missions running from Danang forces and intel units were big in Da Nang. But when the weather got bad, you know, they fly intelligence stuff back and forth from, from the border down to Da Nang. But when the weather got bad and they couldn't fly it, they couldn't broadcast it because the enemy's listening to it.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Billy Queen]

So somebody had to go get it.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And, and they would say, hey, who wants to. Who wants to run up to Quang Tree, pick up intel stuff, bring it back? And you know how it is, guys. You hang out with a certain group.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

So somebody in that certain group volunteers, guess what you go into.

[Bryn Tucker]

That's right.

[Billy Queen]

So, yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

Whether you want to or not.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah. What do you want to not throw yourself in a. People don't know how that stuff happened, how it worked over there, but you throw, you know, four guys in a jeep. Four guys in a jeep with a 60 hanging on, all the ammunition that you can carry and shit, and make a run for it. As crazy as that sounds, that's what happened.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

You run from Da Nang up to the Quang Tree area stuff, pick up the intel stuff and run it back to Danang.

[Doc]

Right.

[Bryn Tucker]

And you know, they're just salivating to intercept that. But, you know, it would be such a big win for them to be able to intercept that and take you guys out.

[Billy Queen]

You know, the first time that I went up there and the Highway 1 ran along the coast and there were bluffs and they just dropped right down into the ocean. Well, you look down and there's a whole bunch of deuce and a halfs and all kind of jeeps and everything else that they had blown off the roads, you know, down into the ocean and stuff. And you look down there thinking, what in the hell am I doing here? You know, come across the mountains and look down in the valleys and you see the bridges. 1, 2, 3, 4 bridges. This one's blown. Boom. This one's blown. Boom. This one's blown. What the hell am I doing here?

[Bryn Tucker]

You know, it's a, It's a funny story that, that you, you come up with, with that story. Super dangerous in combat because there, there are. Everyone thinks about just like your traditional, traditional battles in combat, and you forget that there's. There's a bunch of weird things in combat that can get really dangerous really quick that aren't your traditional. I'm in a patrol and enemy territory, things like that.

[Tyler]

Supply convoys.

[Billy Queen]

Yo.

[Bryn Tucker]

Supply convoys. Just convoys in general. That's kind of what that is of sorts. I mean, it's, it's. It's a convoy.

[Doc]

It's.

[Bryn Tucker]

It's a run up to get something and bring it back. And there's a lot of people have, have been on the, you know, the bad end of what should have been just a quick trip and back.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, yeah. Well, all you had to do was take a look over the side reminder. Yeah, Jeeps and V1 hundreds and stuff with the waves washing in on them. Did I know.

[Bryn Tucker]

So you, You. You went to Special Forces after this trip, Right. Did you have any interactions with. With Green Berets or see them while you were there at the time? Oh, in Vietnam, did you have any interaction?

[Billy Queen]

I was at Marble Mountain.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Bryn Tucker]

I don't know what that is, but I love the sound of it.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

Marlboro Mountain.

[Billy Queen]

No, it's Marble Mountain. The forces camp was there at.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Billy Queen]

At. At Marble Mountain.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Billy Queen]

And I was there one day, and I don't know whether I need to be talking about this stuff, and I don't know what to talk about here.

[Tyler]

You can talk about anything you want.

[Bryn Tucker]

That's right.

[Billy Queen]

Well, probably heard of mountain yards.

[Doc]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

Heard of mountain yards.

[Billy Queen]

Well, I'm. At first time I saw mountain yards, and we were concerned at that time the war was going on. You concerned about charges and all these other things that started coming up in the late 60s and 70s. You can't. No fire zones. Fire zones. You can shoot here, you can't shoot there. Bullshit. And I'm over at the Special Forces camp over there, and here comes a deuce and a half in, and it's painted black.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Billy Queen]

And when it came up, the closer it came is like, you're dragging something. Yeah, well, they're dragging two bodies behind the damn deuce and half into the damn camp. And it was like, holy shit, somebody gets a picture of this stuff going to jail.

[Doc]

Right?

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, but my whole time over there was just full of kind of little stuff like that.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

There was nothing ordinary.

[Bryn Tucker]

Was it your experience in Vietnam that wanted you to go Special Forces, or is this something you thought you were going to try out for eventually?

[Billy Queen]

No, no, I thought, you know, when I get back, that's what I'm going to do.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Billy Queen]

And when I got back, that's exactly what I did.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

And what group did you go to?

[Billy Queen]

11Th group.

[Bryn Tucker]

11Th group. That's right. We talked about that before the podcast.

[Billy Queen]

C Company, 3rd Battalion, 11th Group.

[Doc]

Okay. And what.

[Bryn Tucker]

Because, you know, both of us know this, I really want to get into the Mongol stuff, but we'll. We'll hit some of this stuff real quick. How long did you spend there? And then what. What made you want to, you know, get out of the army and start your law enforcement part of your career?

[Billy Queen]

What happened? I was there about. For about a year and a half, and I wanted to be a police officer, so I joined the High Point Police Department. And you're not going to do both. You're gonna be a cop, you're gonna be a soldier.

[Tyler]

Well, tradition. I mean, traditionally, now a lot of.

[Billy Queen]

Not.

[Tyler]

I shouldn't say a lot, but a large majority of special Forces National Guard are because of shift work. And they in fire departments and police departments honor military leave that. They're. That's their. They're able to do it right.

[Bryn Tucker]

An 11th group was a reservist unit, correct?

[Billy Queen]

It was, yeah, yeah. National Guard now.

[Bryn Tucker]

They're all National Guard now. Yeah. And that's what we were talking about beforehand.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, yeah. Before. Yeah. When I was in.

[Doc]

Yeah. But.

[Bryn Tucker]

But it's still so, so time intensive.

[Doc]

It's.

[Bryn Tucker]

Even as a reservist to do the job and do it right. It's really hard to balance two careers and do good at both.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah. And I gotta tell you, they didn't pull any punches back then. They weren't. They weren't pulling any punches. There were lots of times it was just miserable.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

JV team for life. Ooh.

[Tyler]

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[Billy Queen]

JV team for life. But I. You know what, you come back from Vietnam, big deal, right? I know you probably operated in. In North Carolina. Yeah, well, there's really shitty places in North Carolina. Yeah, that and I think the term black water, that's where that came from.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Tyler]

Do you need him to talk more of the mic?

[Doc]

Oh, I'm.

[Billy Queen]

The time is 30.20. Turn the mic. The mic is angled at you right now. Get it straight. There you go. And just try to keep it. Also, when you're talking to Brent, kind of swivel like this.

[Bryn Tucker]

Yeah, like this. And when you talk to me or Tyler, you kind of got to talk around the mic.

[Billy Queen]

You know, I don't understand that because I do this all the time, you know, And I don't know how that got by me. That's all right.

[Bryn Tucker]

We don't care.

[Billy Queen]

Gets by Tyler every week.

[Bryn Tucker]

It's actually harder to do it in the middle because. Yeah, because I'm talking. Whether I'm talking to Tyler, talking news, it's the same to me. But to you, you have to do that. So I don't. I don't even have to deal with that.

[Billy Queen]

If you move your mic a couple of inches to your right, it'll be better. Alrighty.

[Bryn Tucker]

Thanks for being honest with us, Drew. If you're always honest, you don't have to say that.

[Billy Queen]

So. So, you know, I love jumping out.

[Bryn Tucker]

Of airplanes and says a lot about you.

[Billy Queen]

Except. Except when I got with Special Forces, you weren't jumping out of airplanes anymore. You're jumping out of helicopters.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Billy Queen]

You very seldom did a high performance aircraft jump.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Billy Queen]

But I didn't like that so much either because when I was with the 82nd Airborne Division, you know, you were jumping out in Normandy or St. Mary Glees. Yeah, but.

[Bryn Tucker]

Yeah, Remember all those drop zones?

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, but you're jumping with Special Forces, you're jumping into cornfields. But if you were going to do a high performance jump, a C130, then they want to do a mission. So we were flying contour flying and stuff on a. On a C130 or. I didn't do it out of a 141, but I was C130. We fly missions for like an hour, up and up, and I'm going out of the airplane holding my. Yeah, I'm not trying to Throw up on myself.

[Bryn Tucker]

I'm not sure we got to practice for that. Yeah, I think we just do do that with the time comes. If you pilots want to practice that without us, go ahead. Practice misery.

[Doc]

Right?

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, I got that. Practice going out the door, holding my mouth open. I'll throw up on the dude in front of me.

[Bryn Tucker]

Oh, nothing's worse. And in any. Even people who are. Who don't want to jump or a little bit scared or apprehensive of jumping once. Once you have a bad plane ride like that, or you're just burning circles in the sky for winds or something. And when everyone starts getting motion sick wanting to throw up, everyone's more than happy to get out of that plane one way or another.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

It's a relief. That's right.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

General.

[Tyler]

That all that fear and anxiety of getting out the door is like, get me out of this thing.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

If you don't mind my talking about one other thing they had back when I was in what was called an A and E board. And I'm not sure where they were actually at Pope Air Force Base or whether they were at Bragg, but they were airborne experimental electronics. So they were all the time looking for people to volunteer to jump new chutes or new aircraft or they had some type of other electronic stuff that they wanted to try out.

[Bryn Tucker]

I don't like that. I like jumping proven stuff.

[Billy Queen]

Well, they came up and asked for volunteers to go down to Pope to jump a new shoot. Okay, well, I volunteered. It was gonna be a night jump. Gonna be a night jump. And it was gonna be a caribou. You know what? A caribou. Gonna be a caribou. So you're gonna be tailgating and with this new parachute. So I got down there, and it was a steerable parachute, but I think it had some anti inversion stuff built into it.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Billy Queen]

So I'm standing there along with like maybe 12, 15 other guys, and the jump master, he's out in front and he says, how many people here has never made a night jump before? It's okay. How many people here has never tailgated an airplane? How many people here has never jumped a steerable parachute? And then the jump master came up to him and said, be all right, boy.

[Bryn Tucker]

Pre, jump over. You'll be all right. Now you say tailgate that. You mean like a. It's a. It's a, A. It's a ramp jump. You jump. You're jumping out of the back of the aircraft. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. I just want to make sure. That I explain it to, to people.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

I, I like, I like walking off the ramp much better than a door exit.

[Billy Queen]

You know, it's so, you just, you're.

[Bryn Tucker]

Just, you're just straight off, you know.

[Billy Queen]

It'S so different because when you're going out a door, you don't really see the guy that jumped out in front of you, but when you're tailgating. Oh, you know, jumping right out on top. Right.

[Bryn Tucker]

Yeah, that is true. That is true.

[Billy Queen]

And when you jump in a helicopter, you really get the feeling of down.

[Bryn Tucker]

That's right.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

Because when you're going a couple hundred miles an hour, the exact number. But you, when you jump out, you still have that forward throw, you know, of that speed. But you're on a helicopter, the only thing you feel is that straight gut rises.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

Drop.

[Billy Queen]

Well, another thing was jumping a C141. Now that's a jet versus a prop on a C130. And I can't slow that jet down like it slow that C130 down. So they put a wind deflector out.

[Doc]

Right.

[Billy Queen]

Doors.

[Doc]

Right.

[Billy Queen]

And that thing screams. You can't hear anything. Yeah, but you don't have to jump either. All you got to do is stick your foot near the door and pull.

[Bryn Tucker]

Of course, I mean that'll help with, with the wind hitting you right off the bat, but you're, you're not going to slow down enough and that's, it's still going to be a pretty big shock on the initial opening of the shoot.

[Billy Queen]

What else it would do was if you jump to C130, you know, you're going to pretty much stay straight up. You'll be looking down between your legs. But you jump that C141, you look through your legs and you're looking at the airplane flying off.

[Bryn Tucker]

I don't, I don't miss static line jumping. I preferred, I preferred free fall the after. And so what, at some point you had to make the decision, hey, like I, I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna pursue law enforcement and I'm gonna concentrate on that.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, it was clear. You're, you're gonna have to make a choice here.

[Bryn Tucker]

And what, what made you go from, from you know, almost small town law enforcement to over those, you know, I'm gonna do border patrol.

[Billy Queen]

Well, ultimately what I wanted to do was I want to become a federal agent like my dad. I want to become an ATF agent. I went to school. Course you had to have a four year degree in college before they would even talk to you. Anybody. FBI, atfdea. You had to have that four year degree. I don't know why.

[Bryn Tucker]

I always assumed that was a newer thing with our, you know, with our fascination of focus on college. What. What year is this? There's. And that they required this.

[Tyler]

I didn't think that wasn't that.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, that.

[Tyler]

I thought that was like in the 90s.

[Doc]

Yeah, that's.

[Billy Queen]

No, this was the 70s.

[Bryn Tucker]

Late 70s. We should throw. Yeah, late 70s. They were still requiring a four year degree to be a federal agent. That learned something new today.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

And we've talked about this all the time. How would your experience not right trump a college degree?

[Bryn Tucker]

Yeah, you know, talk about the experience you already had. Vietnam, Green Beret, already have law enforcement experience. That for it's. I get it if you have no experience. Like I want some sort of life experience and a degree or something. But you can't tell me that they can't drop that requirement for your background.

[Billy Queen]

They certainly could. But the thing that comes to mind is now you got to learn to really write. You know, you got to write affidavits. You got to write these federal ports. You're right, and you're right and you're right. But you know, they could. There's lots of guys out there with a high school diploma, maybe even not a high school play. Make excellent federal agents, for sure there.

[Bryn Tucker]

Guess what? Just give him a riding class and then let's go.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, exactly.

[Doc]

Oh, man.

[Bryn Tucker]

Where'd you go for. For border patrol?

[Billy Queen]

California.

[Doc]

All right, went.

[Billy Queen]

They put me in Temecula, California. You ever heard of it? No.

[Bryn Tucker]

Have you heard of it?

[Tyler]

Temecula? Yeah, I've heard of it.

[Billy Queen]

I've never been. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's down below Riverside, California. M in between San Diego area and Riverside, California.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Billy Queen]

And you work a little bit of everything. You know, you work the back roads, people trying to circumvent checkpoints, stuff like that. You might be raiding Del Monte farms or horse places.

[Doc]

Yeah, right.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah. And that was really, you know, that was a little different for me.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

Because I was working and arresting people for being breaking the law. I'm talking about fights, talking about stealing stuff, dope, running, whatever. That's what I was arresting people for when I was a police officer. And now I'm a border patrol agent and I'm arresting you because you're just here.

[Doc]

Right.

[Bryn Tucker]

Because you're.

[Billy Queen]

And that was really weird. He's not. You're not a criminal. You haven't Done anything. I'm arresting you because you're here.

[Doc]

Right.

[Bryn Tucker]

I get that. I'm not by no means not saying that that shouldn't be done, but I get what, I get what you're saying. The, the difference between going after those criminals, like they're doing like current criminal activities. This other person is really just going to work. You know, I'm like, now, now I have to arrest you because you're going to work, but your crime happened whatever was two years ago, three years ago, just, I'm assuming we're talking crossing the border illegally. Illegal aliens.

[Billy Queen]

And let me tell you this. When I was a border patrol agent, if I picked you up at 4 o' clock in the evening, by 6 o', clock, you're going to be back in Tijuana. And we didn't care as Border Patrol agents back then where you came from or we were concerned. You came from Mexico. We had voluntary return.

[Bryn Tucker]

Streamline it.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, we had forms. Voluntary return to Mexico. You got two choices. You sign this form or you go to jail. And they're signing, buddy. I don't care if you're Chinese or Afghanistan, Mexican, whatever, you're on your way back to Tijuana.

[Bryn Tucker]

Streamline it.

[Billy Queen]

Hola.

[Bryn Tucker]

Efficient.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, but that's the way it was when I was a Border Patrol agent. And of course, everybody knows what happened under the Biden administration. They were just welcoming committee.

[Bryn Tucker]

Yeah, yeah, the offices. Speaking of which, it's a random current event because you talked about it right before I walked into the studio. Illegal immigrant was who stabbed a lot of people at a, at a soccer game here in America. So, yes, they are. You know, I don't want to, I don't want derail this or anything, but in the day, like, they're just working. But if you're here illegally, like you, you have to, you have to go back. Like, you have to get back in line. They're not all stabbing people at soccer games.

[Tyler]

But the only way to get the people that are stabbing people. People is coming in the right way.

[Bryn Tucker]

That's right.

[Billy Queen]

Well, yeah, in reality, you got to buy by law. What are you going to, you're going to let this group of people say, okay, we don't care, you can break the law. How about these people over here that did it Right.

[Bryn Tucker]

Then why would anyone do it?

[Doc]

Right?

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, yeah, why would you do that? So excellent.

[Tyler]

If you don't have to have a driver's license, why would I have one?

[Bryn Tucker]

Exactly.

[Billy Queen]

And plus, and let me make this clear, when I picked up people, they didn't have ID on them. They didn't have an ID on them. They tell you they could be from China and tell you they're from Tijuana. They didn't have anything. You put down what they said?

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

How come you don't speak Spanish? Yeah. You just sign the form. We don't care. You're on your way back to Tijuana, you know. But that's the way that it was.

[Bryn Tucker]

That's right, it was.

[Billy Queen]

And Yep. We were. We were serious about catching you and. And putting you back outside this country.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And your job.

[Doc]

I'm glad you did.

[Billy Queen]

And we would do things that you go to jail for today. Of course, they might put us in jail back then for doing it, but we, we stopped what we call a tonk wagon. You knew that they were hollowing illegals back and forth. They were coyotes, what we call them. But if you didn't catch them with somebody, you couldn't do anything with them.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Billy Queen]

So when some guys are talking to the bad guy, other guys around the back with a screwdriver and a hammer and going. Punching a hole in the back of the tail light, then all you do is sit up on the highway and look for cars with the tail light punched out of the back of it. Go get them.

[Doc]

There you go.

[Billy Queen]

But if you do that today, you'd be in jail. That's in traps.

[Bryn Tucker]

Maybe. Good thing you'd have to deal with body cams back then.

[Billy Queen]

Yes.

[Tyler]

Body cams in the 70s would have.

[Bryn Tucker]

Been a wild show. Can you imagine the content? We would have these other social medias there. If they had that pouring, pouring over all the.

[Tyler]

That's a good TV show right there. If body cams were in the 70s.

[Bryn Tucker]

Oh, for sure.

[Doc]

Yeah. Yeah. Or there.

[Bryn Tucker]

That'd be a good meme page. Just recreating body cams in the 70s, but with like, bad screens on them. Oh, it'd be hilarious. Write that down. We might do that.

[Billy Queen]

We're in trouble. And I'm sure that you guys know we're in trouble because you've got literally millions of people that are now in the country that won't kill us.

[Bryn Tucker]

Millions. Sure. It's.

[Billy Queen]

Sooner or later it's going to happen. It ain't a matter if it's going to happen, it's just when it's going to happen. And there. There are sales all over this country. Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

And I don't. I hate that it's become a political issue because it absolutely shouldn't be the security of this country if that's not a bipartisan issue. I don't know what is. If you can't, and if you can't assess and define and control who's coming in this country, when you're a beacon of freedom and a lot of people want to take you down, then how, how can you provide security to your citizens, which is one of the few government jobs that they really ought to be doing and say, well there's a, there's a couple good ones that are working that have come in, so don't worry about it. That's what they're saying. It's insane.

[Billy Queen]

Well, there, there is a lot of people that's coming into the country that just looking to make a better life for themselves just and go to work. And they, and they really do help us.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

But unfortunately under the circumstances, the Biden administration, there's so many people that are in the country that want to kill us. It's just a matter of time before they do. And I'm talking about on a large scale.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And I don't want to talk about what I think that's going to happen because I really believe it is going to. But it's going to hurt us bad. It's going to hurt us bad.

[Bryn Tucker]

I hate to say it because Tyler reminds us all the time thing. You brought it up last night. Not a conspiracy theorist. Not. But when you say things like that, I have, I have no rebuttal to that. I mean I think anyone that's looking through this with a, you know, through the lens of just logic and reasoning says like yeah, there's, there's definitely a good chance.

[Tyler]

Yeah. It's just a matter of time when there's no cons. If you take the conspiracy out of it, best case scenario, you have incompetent liberal, you know, and like liberal minded politicians that don't think there's any danger out there. That's best case scenario.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

If you're taking out the fact naiveness. Yeah.

[Tyler]

If you're taking out the fact that they want to burn this country to the ground and you're just thinking Joe Biden is just an idiot for doing all this.

[Billy Queen]

You don't have to whisper that.

[Doc]

Well the.

[Bryn Tucker]

How long did you spend a border patrol.

[Billy Queen]

A year and a half.

[Bryn Tucker]

You're not. I'm a, I'm a, I'm a guess this. You let me know if it's right. Didn't take you long to realize, hey this, this is a fun job. Want to be a federal agent. But this wasn't. I want to do something else.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah. Well, the reason I joined the border patrol, because ATF wasn't hiring at the time. And that's the gun toting organization. And it's covered under. Might get this right, 6C. If you're a gun toter in the federal government, you're covered under what they call 6C. You can transfer from that agency to another agency. Easier if you're already succeed.

[Tyler]

Yeah, I've heard that before.

[Bryn Tucker]

Okay.

[Tyler]

People use border patrol as a gateway to get in the feds.

[Billy Queen]

Oh, yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

So even when you went to border patrol, you knew you were just kind of greasing the skids to get into atf.

[Billy Queen]

That was a step to get into atf.

[Tyler]

I might have missed it. Did the border patrol, did they require a college degree?

[Billy Queen]

No.

[Tyler]

But you were. But being a cop in that border, you were able to get your degree.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah. It wasn't, it wasn't really difficult to get into border patrol. It was difficult getting through to school.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

Out of all the schools I've ever gone to, Border patrol was the hardest school ever. Really? If you didn't speak Spanish.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

By the time you got through school, you had to speak Spanish. If you didn't pass the class, you're out.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

Holding the standards. I love it.

[Billy Queen]

And their, their physical fitness requirements were much tougher than anything else that I had gone through.

[Bryn Tucker]

Do you think it's still as tough? I don't think so. But you know what?

[Doc]

I. You know, there's.

[Bryn Tucker]

Well, besides you, we now have a border patrol agent on and we talk about border patrol a lot. Like, I'd like to have a border patrol.

[Doc]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

Rocco would be a good one.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

I'd love to hear what the border patrol is up to now or has been up to, you know, recently.

[Tyler]

SME on it.

[Bryn Tucker]

Yeah, absolutely. So you get into atf, which is what I've been waiting to hear. And you said you did use of the over 20 years, 17 of them you spent undercover.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

And so I'm assuming the be you were undercover all the way to, you retired. So the beginning of that was all your kind of prepping stages. You figuring out the job and then working.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah. Somebody call me one day because I humped the 60 and I fell in love with that gun.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And so if I'm going out, I don't care whether it's perimeter guard, I don't care if it was one of these missions and stuff. I'm gonna go hump a 60, I'm gonna pull a 60 and all ammunition I can carry. And that's what I did. I knew that 60 inside and out, okay? You know how that goes. Take it apart in the dart, put it back together in the dark.

[Bryn Tucker]

I'm sure your back reminds you today that used to hump that all the time.

[Billy Queen]

Well, there were guys in Los Angeles, and I'm not sure because it'd been a long time ago, they were buying surplus metal materials from the military.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Billy Queen]

Well, ultimately they were buying M60 machine guns. They'd been broken down. They're supposed to been demilled, but they were buying barrels, receivers, everything that you needed to put a full M60 back together.

[Doc]

Okay?

[Billy Queen]

And an agent who was working this organization came to me and said, billy, can you go in and pull these metal parts from all these barrels and stuff, see if you can put a complete M60 machine gun back together, okay?

[Bryn Tucker]

So I said, your background.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I went in and sure enough, I pull a barrel out here, pull a receiver out here, stock out here, springs out here, gas in a bit, and sure as shit I had enough that I could put a full auto M60 together. So I, you know, I go back and I give. I give this complete M60 machine gun to the case agent stuff. And then he said, will you go back in and buy another one? See if you pull it? So I went back in, pull all the parts and stuff, put about.

[Bryn Tucker]

How long did it take you to build the first one?

[Billy Queen]

An hour?

[Bryn Tucker]

Oh, yeah, we're not talking about like you're grabbing one today at work. Grab more than. I mean, all in one sitting in one hour. You could pull.

[Billy Queen]

I'm going around and I'm pulling stuff and I'm throwing in.

[Bryn Tucker]

It was that easy, right?

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, it was that easy.

[Doc]

Wow.

[Billy Queen]

It was that easy. So I put the 60 together, went back, pulled another one, put that 60 together and stuff. But they got warrants and stuff for the whole operation, took it down. Well, everybody heard, wow, Billy did and went in, pulled all these parts, built a couple M60 machine guns and stuff. We took it off. It was a good case, is a good case. And then it wasn't too long after that somebody else came to me relevant to military equipment and stuff and asked me if I'd go in and sit. And I. And I did another successful undercover operation. Then they started asking me to do other stuff. Hey, Billy, how about going in and buying some dope here? Hey, Billy, how about going in and picking up some guns, these guns, stuff. And it just. One thing led to another, to another, started doing undercover Operation for agents all around.

[Bryn Tucker]

I'm still thinking about that, you know, being able to put a 60 together in parts, like, you know, at least one of them within an hour. But the, like, the secondary and like the following effects that that could have had had that not been taken down. Whether they want to do bank robberies with it. Whether they want to attack police officers with. Whether they just want to do other gang violence with it. And then police officers show up and now law enforcement. I'm down the line. At some point these bad guys get. Get M60s, they're going to be pointed at good guys. And that is not what you want.

[Billy Queen]

No. If I'll just jump ahead.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

I'm out watching a dope operation, Serious international dope operation. I'm watching this guy come down set of steps and he's got a box under his arm. Looks like a flower box. You know, somebody delivering flowers and stuff about like this. And what in the hell is that? Because it obviously ain't a flower box. I mean, the dude's really having to hang on to it. But we're just making notes and stuff and trying to put this case together, chasing these, these dopers, cocaine guys.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Billy Queen]

And make a long story short, later on we do a search warrant and stuff and there's a box sitting there. Open the damn box up. It's an M60 machine gun. No way. But this is this one. They had demilled it. It had been cut apart and welded back together.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Billy Queen]

And two fully functional M60s D mill put back together.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

With serial numbers on them.

[Tyler]

Were they Frankenstein's?

[Billy Queen]

What?

[Tyler]

Were they like Frankenstein guns? Were they from different.

[Billy Queen]

Well, here, here's what happened here. We were able to get serial numbers off the guns. Okay, call the military up. Hey, I got a gun. I got an M60 machine gun. Here's the serial number on it. And Army. What the. You know what they said? No, you don't.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

We'Re bigger than you.

[Billy Queen]

No, you don't.

[Bryn Tucker]

Because our boys do inventory all the time. And we know where our stuff is. And that is true. We may do inventory all the time. Doesn't necessarily know where it's at. They're rubber stamping those inventories.

[Billy Queen]

Kudos to the people that built that M60 machine gun. Because they cut it. These guys cut it apart. These D mill operations and stuff. These guys were buying it and getting the right stuff to weld back together. And I mean, this ain't welding like with a stick welder.

[Doc]

Right.

[Billy Queen]

You know, these guys really put these guns back together. Right. Fully functional. Take them out and, you know, they would sing just like the back in the military, really. And, you know, ended up with those M60s that LAPD got them.

[Bryn Tucker]

Oh, really?

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know.

[Bryn Tucker]

Well, it sounds like they're going to need them because before you stop that operation, that means other people did have them. So if they run up against one, the only thing, the only thing you can do is bring another one to the fight.

[Billy Queen]

Look, I've taken off full auto, 20 millimeter, 30 millimeters. I've took those off coming in from other countries, people buying surplus stuff and just bringing it in.

[Bryn Tucker]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And they get it in.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

I mean, some dangerous. Some dangerous weapons.

[Bryn Tucker]

The, the amount of I think it blow. And those, those are the ones you catch. I think it blow our minds to know what's, what's really in this country. Like the type of weaponry illegal that's in the wrong people's hands, that, that they're waiting.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

And then you got the arguments for Waco. I mean, you don't.

[Bryn Tucker]

We did Waco.

[Tyler]

I mean, right, wrong or indifferent, that's the. That's where those weapons end up.

[Doc]

Yeah, yeah, Waco.

[Billy Queen]

I didn't. I was atf, srt, but I didn't go to Waco. But I had friends that went there. And. And at time I was in Bureau headquarters in Washington, D.C. and I went to all four of the funerals for the ATF agents that were killed there. My friends, just like I know that you guys have friends that have died in combat. I went to four funerals. The ATF agents had died and my friends that were blown all the pieces and shot at Waco. And then to listen to the crap that came out from all over the country about what happened there and ATF going after churches and good people that.

[Tyler]

Started the demonization of atf.

[Bryn Tucker]

And we covered both subjects from Ruby Ridge to Waco in depth. And it was right, wrong, or indifferent. They were. They were black eyes on the atf. And I'm talking. I'm not talking about the men, you know, that, that carry these things out. You know, I get that as, as an organization, it just. It just wasn't necessarily a good look. And I'm trying to make sure that I say it correctly. Well, let me start painting the organization as bad. But those two incidents, they happen so close together. It was. It was tough.

[Billy Queen]

Let me fill you in. You already had people talk to you about it. In Waco, there was at least two combat Green Berets that were involved in that. You know, who they were?

[Doc]

No.

[Billy Queen]

So I was shocked myself that they made the decision to go in knowing that they knew they were coming.

[Doc]

Right, right.

[Billy Queen]

As we covered, a lot of people died as a result of it.

[Doc]

Right.

[Billy Queen]

And also what you hear is, why didn't you take him off when he was in town? Why didn't you take him off when he was here or in here?

[Doc]

Correct.

[Billy Queen]

Well, he didn't have a warrant to just to take him off. They had a warrant for the facility to grab all the machine guns, to grab the hand grenades and stuff. You grab him in town that didn't give you the hand grenades, machine guns and stuff, you still had to hit the place.

[Bryn Tucker]

Yeah, that's a good point. And, and if you guys don't know exactly what we're talking about, remember that point, because we didn't. We didn't cover that or know that aspect of it. We covered the, the why or, you know, like, why didn't you? There's. There's your answer. Go back and listen to the, to the Waco episode. It's. I think most people hear Waco a lot and they, they kind of understand it, but we've really lost, you know, what really happened at Waco. Most people, Most people don't know really what happened to Waco.

[Billy Queen]

Well, it was a well planned operation. It was very well planned. They had like, like you guys have facilities that were set up and they hit it and hit it and hit and practice, practice and practice. And they had it down.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

But, you know, they got found out and then went in anyway. And that was dead ass wrong. And a lot of people died as a result of. Yeah, that was, that was wrong. But make it absolutely clear, Mr. David Koresh is banging all the women in there to include little kids and stuff. They're building hand grenades, they're converting weapons to full automatic. Is like, how much do you just let them do before you take action against them?

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And when they did, it was righteous. What happened shouldn't have happened. They made wrong decisions.

[Bryn Tucker]

Yeah, that was one of those things where nobody won. It was horrible on both sides. It was horrible for what happened to the ATF guys having to go in when they were compromised. They should have said, all right, well, it's called time.

[Billy Queen]

They should have called.

[Bryn Tucker]

And then at the end, regardless how, how evil, you know, the, the guys at Waco were, you know, what inevitably happened, you know, to Waco and all those people dying and burning inside that building, it was, it was a lose, lose situation. Yeah, it was terrible all the way Around.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was. But please, when somebody talks to you about it. Yeah, man, they say, why didn't you take him out when he was downtown and stuff?

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

Say, what about all the guns and the hand grenades and the full automatic shit and everything and all the other people that were willing to kill federal? What do you do, just let that go? Oh, yeah. No, you got to go take the stuff.

[Bryn Tucker]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, the did on your. That the time before you went, before you went undercover, how important is it? Or maybe not, because undercover work is so unique to itself. Do you feel like you needed that base of. Of being it. We'll call it a regular ATF agent before going undercover. Do you need that foundation?

[Doc]

Did it.

[Bryn Tucker]

Did it apply to things later? Or is it so there's like, there's two different worlds?

[Billy Queen]

No, not necessarily. Because you got to go. You got to go to school. And. And they had good schools. And every ATF agent, at least it was when I went through. You had to go through post Blast investigation. ATF was the investigative agency. When somebody blew something up, it was ATF that came in, and we had the laboratories and we had the facilities. Federal Law Enforcement Training center down in Georgia. I went through that school. Every ATF agent did. And you learn the ways of conducting investigations and stuff. And then, you know, they team you up with somebody whenever you get to your assignment and you work your way up. And basically in atf, you could do whatever you wanted to do. And now when I say that if you wanted to go after drug organizations, you could do that. If you wanted to go after gun smugglers and runners, you could do that. You wanted to go after violent organizations, you could do that. And I really love that about atf. If you were dea, you're going to go after drugs, period, right? And Customs. Customs is, excuse me, they got to get an array of criminal activity. They can go after anything that's coming across the border. But ATF had everything to include. If you wanted to do counterfeiting, you could do that. And that's a Secret Service thing. Right, but you could do it.

[Tyler]

They allowed you to work that?

[Billy Queen]

Pardon me?

[Tyler]

They allowed you guys to work that.

[Bryn Tucker]

Yeah, the counterfeiting part, okay?

[Billy Queen]

So my thing was violent organizations, violent people, violent organizations. And that's what I concentrated on. And I went after the Ku Klux Klan, I went after the National Alliance, I went after Ontario Skinheads, Anti Grubbing, the Aryan Brotherhood, and ultimately later on the Mongols outside, our motorcycle gang.

[Bryn Tucker]

You just named the who's who Of. Of bad actors.

[Billy Queen]

That's truly what I wanted to do.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

You know, this, this one man, one gun case stuff wasn't my bag, buddy.

[Bryn Tucker]

Here's. Here's a question I got for you. When it. When it comes to, like, undercover work, and I've. I've seen this firsthand, that they can, they can give you all the. They give you all the training you want and the tools, and you can understand how certain things work. But at the end of the day, like, the only people who are really good at undercover work, you almost can't train them to do it. They're wired that way. They have the social understanding of how to act, when to push, when not to push, and you really can't train for that. And I'm not even sure he can assess for it. It's very difficult to do. How do you, how do you guys deal with that? Ensuring that you get the right guys to do in the right places, you know, because what you're doing, you're about to tell these mongol stories. But, you know, you get a guy that looks, has. That has the right certification to do it, goes in missteps, you know, ruins the whole operation just based off of personality.

[Billy Queen]

The undercover agent needs to understand himself, what he can do.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

You call me up, go buy M60 machine guns and put M60 together. Hell, I can do that. I could deal with the violent organizations. It didn't make any difference who they were. But I could not go in and pose as a doctor. I'd get caught in a minute. I couldn't go in and pose as a rocket scientist. You know, I get uncovered in a minute. Yeah, but if it was chasing anti government organizations, narcotic organizations, violent organizations, I could do it. I can. I could identify with them.

[Doc]

Right.

[Bryn Tucker]

What does that say about you, Billy?

[Billy Queen]

You know what I question in my own life. Yeah.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

I'm just that far from being on the other side. And listen, you're laughing about that, but that just almost.

[Bryn Tucker]

No, no. In fact, you say that I absolutely. I get it.

[Doc]

You're.

[Bryn Tucker]

You're absolutely right. That's. We need you.

[Doc]

We need.

[Bryn Tucker]

I've actually said this before, and it kind of goes to the Delta Force and certain things we do. Like we. We need people that are 49 criminal. Sometimes you can't be. You can every 51 criminal.

[Doc]

Because.

[Bryn Tucker]

Because now, you know, now. Now there's more bad than good. But yeah, we need people that. About 49% criminal.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

Because otherwise you're not going to understand how the other. How the other side thinks and you know, and why they do what they do, or else you're not going to be good as kind of what you're talking about. You have to be able to identify with them to some degree, because it's. Because you can't fake authenticity.

[Doc]

That's.

[Bryn Tucker]

That's the hardest thing to fake, is authenticity.

[Billy Queen]

Well, let me. Let me clear this up.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

If you think that you're going to go into an organization like even traditional organized crime, like La Cosa Nostra, like Joe Pistone did, if you think that you're going to go into a violent organization, like, it could be Aryan Brotherhood, could be a biker gang, and not be just like them, forget it.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And there's a misconception out here. If you're not willing to do what you got to do to be just like them, forget it. Because they're going to see right through you. And maybe it's going to get you killed. But you need to understand it yourself before you go in. You got to know what you're going in there after. You got to know what you can do. You got to be willing to do whatever you have to do to make it work. And so playing by the rules. Oh, ATF says you can do this. The directives say that you can do this. Policy and procedure says you can do this.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

No, forget it. Yeah, it ain't gonna work.

[Bryn Tucker]

Not rules, guidelines at best.

[Billy Queen]

I went to the United States Attorney's office early on in that Mongol investigation, and I said, they're beating people. You know, they're hauling dope. They're murdering people.

[Doc]

Right.

[Billy Queen]

They're. They're stealing people's motorcycles.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

There's all kinds of stuff that they're doing and stuff. Give me some guidance here. What can I do? What can I not do with stuff? Right? And the United States attorneys to assistant U.S. attorneys were sitting across the desk doing this. They want to hear it.

[Doc]

All right.

[Bryn Tucker]

They don't want to see how. They don't see how the hot dog's made.

[Tyler]

They want all results, no liability.

[Doc]

Right.

[Tyler]

Do what you got to do.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah. I made my own decision then when I walked out of that office, I'll do what I got to do to make it happen, man.

[Tyler]

Now, you did. In today's world, you do that for the government.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

And you know what? If things would have gone wrong, they would have hung you out. Yeah, they sure would have.

[Tyler]

We didn't talk about that.

[Bryn Tucker]

I don't remember that conversation. Had the Mongols case, like, come up and we're like, you know what we should do? We should put one in there. Like had that come up, you know.

[Billy Queen]

I was riding with the Hells Angels and the Mongols. I wasn't paying any attention to them, okay? But ATF was, the Los Angeles Police Department was. They had started coming out of the areas where they normally ran and started running in areas like Hollywood Boulevard. And they were going in clubs down there where people didn't know who they were. And you know how people are. The more you drink, the bigger you get.

[Tyler]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Courage people.

[Bryn Tucker]

Liquid courage.

[Billy Queen]

People in these bars enough they want to take on a mongol. Well, you just don't take on a mongol. Yeah, you take over and they don't punch you out and they're gonna come out with a damn knife and leave you bleeding on the the floor. And that's what was happening to the point where the Los Angeles Police Department went to ATF and said, we got to have help JV team for life.

[Tyler]

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[Evil]

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[Billy Queen]

JV team for life. We gotta do something with these guys. They're out of control.

[Doc]

Right.

[Bryn Tucker]

And Lakitti's huge. So for them to come to you guys like, we need help, it's a big problem.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, it's a problem.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

So at the time, I mean, you had to have a hell of a background. And so they came to me while I was riding with the Angels and said, billy, we need you to get a shot at, run at riding with the Mongols because they're doing all of this shit that they're doing, and will you do it? Well, that's the problem. The Mongols and the Hell's Angels are fighting with each other, killing each other. And I looked at what John Ciccone, the case agent, had, and I just looked at him and said, okay, I'll do it, but I'll do it this way. Nobody's going to know that I'm going under on the Mongols. Nobody. You're not bringing any other agency in. You're not telling ATF agents around here that Billy Queen is riding undercover with some outlaw bikers. You're not telling anybody. Just those people that have to know here and back in Washington, D.C. okay.

[Tyler]

Sounds safe.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And so they agreed. And it was like, you know, I can't go back to atf. I can't go back home.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

You know, I can't be talking to my friends. I could pick up the telephone, of course, talked to my friends. I had children at the time, 9 and 10 years old, and I was still seeing them. And when I agreed to do it, we had planned to get next to the Mongols, not get in, get next to them, buy dope from them, buy guns from them, whatever we could tag them with, but we weren't going to go in. The plan was not to get Billy in and become a full past Mongol, just to get next to him. Well, as the weeks went by and hanging out in the areas where the Mongols were hanging out, and I met a few of them shooting pool with them, drinking with them and stuff, it looked like there was a possibility that I might be able to get in.

[Bryn Tucker]

Now, you'd been riding with the Hell's Angels before this?

[Billy Queen]

Yeah.

[Doc]

Now.

[Bryn Tucker]

Now that you tell this story. Now I got almost like, now.

[Doc]

Now it's.

[Bryn Tucker]

It gets even more dangerous. Clear. They can't find out that you're with the ATF that obviously. We'll just say the obvious one first. But the Hell's Angels and the Mongols.

[Billy Queen]

Weren'T getting along, killing each other.

[Doc]

Right.

[Bryn Tucker]

And so did they know that you were. That you had been with the Hells Angels before that? Because it both gives you a little bit of credibility that you're a part of a motorcycle club before, but. But not necessarily the motorcycle club you want to be affiliated with. You know, how do you jump gangs like that? With that.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, that was.

[Bryn Tucker]

Rival gang. Being in your background, that was a problem.

[Billy Queen]

ATF knew it was a problem. I knew it was a problem.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

So we made the decision. Okay, just stay. I was hanging out with San Fernando Valley chapter of the Hell's Angels.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Billy Queen]

And Ventura guys, Christie. And we made the decision, okay, we won't go back down to the areas where you hung out with the Hell's Angels. Just avoid it, avoid it, avoid it.

[Doc]

Okay?

[Billy Queen]

So we said, okay, that's what we'll do. And. And that worked for. Okay, that worked for months and months and months. And then all of a sudden, Mongols get a wild hair. Let's go down there and take them on in our own place. And we went to the Candy Cat is a titty bar and Chatsworth, California, and northern side of la. And I walked in there and there's guys that I've been hanging with with that. But it was just confrontation, you know, we weren't going to just go toe to toe. It was a, hey, we're here. Fuck you.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And we had them grossly outnumbered, so they weren't going to do anything. We knew that. But they saw me, right? They didn't say anything. They didn't say nothing. And we intimidated them, did whatever we wanted to do, and we left. And nothing ever came of it. Nobody said anything about it. Got a models and Hell's Angels ain't talking to each other, so I got away with that.

[Bryn Tucker]

Sometimes you need a luck on your side too, you know.

[Billy Queen]

Let me. I want to make it clear I'm not the undercover guru. I hear ADD more than my share a lot. I had an angel sitting on my shoulders and that happened with a group called the Monks, too. Did you ever see the story the Mask? The movie the Mask share is about a group of outlaw bikers in Los Angeles. This kid had a real weird face.

[Bryn Tucker]

Okay.

[Billy Queen]

And. Yeah, you know what I'm talking about.

[Bryn Tucker]

I think you're going Jim Carrey. I think it's a very different.

[Billy Queen]

Probably not.

[Tyler]

Probably not.

[Bryn Tucker]

I did too, but I was like, no, let's see how this plays out.

[Billy Queen]

I'm riding my motorcycle one day and it broke down on the freeway and I was able to pull off and go down a ramp and it stopped. And I'm jacking with this motorcycle and a guy sees Me. And he comes over, hey, you need some help? Well, yeah, I do. I'm on a ATF motorcycle. Yeah, I need some help. He says, I got some guys to come over to help you. I said, okay. So a truck pulls up in about 30, 45 minutes. They got a trailer. They put the bike on the trailer and they take me with them to a shop.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Billy Queen]

It turns to be a. Turns out to be a one percenter outlaw club Monks. So I'm hanging out with the monks. I mean, what a great introduction. Bike is really broke and they fix it and I'm like, hey man, I'm high fiving with these guys. That's great. And you know, and, and they're like, won't you hang out with us and stuff. I said, yeah, I will. This is fantastic. You know, and so I started rolling in with the Monks when I'm supposed to be rolling in with the Mongols and. And that worked really well. You know, ATF was seasoned alcohol that was being smuggled over the border from Tijuana.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Billy Queen]

And they just had a bunch of this shit stored up and stuff. And I thought we're supposed to be destroying it. Well, I'm getting this alcohol that's coming over the border and stuff. And I'm riding over to the ma. To the monks and saying, hey, I'll trade you for some more motorcycle work. And yeah, I'm keeping the damn monks drunk and fixing ATF motorcycles and stuff. And I had to cut that loose. I had to move on. Well, one day I'm hanging out with the Mongols and I'm prospecting with the Mongols and here comes a bunch of monks in. Yeah, amongst come in and they see me and they're like, holy shit, it's Billy. You know, And I know at that point who's dealing to them. Methamphetamine and shit. They're all home week. How you doing? Yeah, great, guys. Hey, hey. And they're saying, hey, Billy, you know anybody's got any crank? Hell yeah. You know, I'm sitting amongst up with crank and stuff and it's like, holy gh, Billy, he's the man.

[Bryn Tucker]

That's right.

[Billy Queen]

And so it was just things like that that happened that just made things keep going and keep rolling.

[Bryn Tucker]

Unlimited access. He's connected. Wait till you find out why he's connected.

[Billy Queen]

Well, they called me up one day and said, billy, come on over, man. You know, leave. You leave your bike and leave your colors and we're going to go over to the valley and we're going to hang out some clubs over there where they don't allow patches in. Okay? And Billy, you're going to be security. And this is the president of the SFV chapter, the sergeant at arms. And they're old ladies and I'm going along for security. We rolled over and we're having a good time and drinking and stuff. And about midnight they said, let's roll back over the hill to our place and stuff. We rolled back over to Hunga. We're going in the bar in to Hunga. And it's crowded that night. And Domingo walks in in front of me and his old lady behind him, whether they're drunk, that's propped up against ice machine. And he says something to Domingo's old lady. Well, I couldn't hear it, there's so many people in there and I can't hear anyway. But I knew it was bad news because Domingo squares off on the dude.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Billy Queen]

And it's like they're mad dogging and shit. Well, you're only a mad dog for. For just a couple of seconds. And bam. Domingo hits the dude, knocks him up against the ice machine. Beer up against the ceiling and shit. Well, the bouncer is standing right there. And the bouncer jumps on Domingo. And this guy's coming off the ice machine. He's fixing the rack, Domingo's head. Well, I'm security. What am I supposed to do, right? Bam. I knocked the dude down.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

He's in the floor. And I'm trying to make a good show of it. He's on his hands and knees and. And I got him by the back of the collar. And I'm trying to make it look good. And my knuckles are hurting. I know, a lot worse than his heads hurt. Bam. Bam. Well, I didn't see it coming. There's a couple of full patch mongols inside the place. And I got a hold of this back of this guy's collar and I seen this boot hit this dude in the face. Bam. His head recoiled up and shit. Blood flew. And it was like, oh, shit.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

So I'm trying to drag this guy out the back door, and I take about two steps and they're laying the boot to his head. Bam. Bam. And I drug him all the way out of the bar. And this guy lays a boot to his head. Boom. One more time. And damn, in the dirt he goes. And I'm thinking, oh, God, oh, God, if this guy's really hurt. Everybody in the place saw me hit the dude, knock him to the ground. Yeah, I'm gonna be in deep Shit. Here. Well, a guy shook it all. He jumped up and stuff. And now me and these two Mongols with the patches on chasing this dude. You better run, you motherfucker. You know? And he gets away, and I'm all out of breath and stuff. And I'm walking back in with Domingo. Domingo's got his arm around me. Good job, prospect. Good job and shit. Well, there's another guy in there, didn't like what he saw. And now I don't have a patch on. Domingo. Doesn't have a patch on. He doesn't know that we're Mongols.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

Well, we tried to walk by him, and when we did, bam. Up against the wall, he went. Up against the wall. Domingo went, okay. Boom. And I just thought, shit.

[Bryn Tucker]

Round again.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, buddy. And I grabbed him to hit the guy. And the next thing I saw, the guy come out with a damn bowie knife. And, you know, all of this shit that you do, steel dragon stuff. Bullshit, that is.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

I'm tap dancing my ass out to the door, and I thought, when I get outside, he'll quit. But he didn't. He kept coming after me with the knife and stuff. And I'm going around in a circle. As far as I was concerned, the case was over with. Because I'm hollering now, rocky, shoot him, Rocky, shoot him. Shoot him, Rocky. And Rocky left his gun in the car, and. And now the Mongols are screaming at him. And Domingo and everybody, they're all screaming at him, stop it. Stop it. Stop it. He does. He stops. And my heart's going, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And I'm shaking.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

You know, because I'm. This guy's just about put that damn knife to me. And they were. They're hollering at him, give us the knife. Give up the knife. Give up the knife. And he does. Domino gets the knife. And I'm already. This guy really needs his ass, right? They're like, no, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait, wait, wait, wait. And my heart's just going. And he turns around, the bad guy with the knife, and walks off. And I'm pissed. What? And chill, bud. Just chill. When everything does chill down, Domingo gives me the knife. He says he's coming up Thursday to get his knife. When he does, you're gonna stab him. I was so mad, I thought, I'll stab that son. I'll stab that son. Then I got to thinking. I know the U.S. attorney's office ain't going to.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

This case is over with.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

Because now my job is to kill this guy. Yeah, but what happened was people were coming up to that idiot, tell him, you stupid son of. That's a president of the fucking Mongols and stuff. And that guy's taking up for him. And they're gonna kill you. Yeah, he took off, left town. Did what? Mongols thought Billy Queen took that knife for the damn president. They had me in there.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

Good job, man. Good job. And there you and you know, it's a three piece patch. Well, I got my center patch because of that.

[Doc]

Oh, yeah.

[Billy Queen]

Probably not two or three months of prospecting off.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah. Billy, good man. Good man, Billy. Good job. So I made a reputation for myself. He took that knife for the damn chapter president. And in reality, hell, they could have killed a damn chapter president. Right. Concern. So that's just the way it turned out.

[Bryn Tucker]

I think the. I don't know, the odd part of that story and the line you got to walk and you kind of talked about it, is I got to hit this dude, but I also have to make a showing of it. But I also got to protect this guy, you know, And I got it. You're trying to get him out of there to protect him.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

And it's just. It's just a weird line that you have to walk because you can't go. You can't go full criminal, but you have to. You have to show it. I mean, what a difficult line to walk.

[Billy Queen]

That haunted me in court, too, because that issue came up in court. Oh, yeah, yeah. Mr. Queen, you assaulted these people too. You assaulted the victims here too. He said you did. You've got witnesses and stuff. You assaulted him too. And I would say I did participate in that because I had. Had I not been there, they had a. Beat him.

[Bryn Tucker]

That's right.

[Doc]

Right. Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

You'd have much rather me punch you in the face to save your life.

[Doc]

Yeah. Then.

[Billy Queen]

Well, that's what the message was.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah. Killed your victim.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

That's greater than a half right there. Such a dark, dark gray area. Oh, I don't.

[Doc]

The. Did.

[Bryn Tucker]

Did you ever get. You got all. All three parts of the patch? Were you there?

[Billy Queen]

Oh, yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

You were there for. You were undercover with them for two years.

[Billy Queen]

Two years and two months. Not only did I get a long.

[Bryn Tucker]

Time to play that game, I became.

[Billy Queen]

An officer in the game. Secretary, treasurer of the San Fernando Valley chapter. I had the books turned over to me that we used against them. Yeah, yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

For. So for. For two years. Married with kids. During this time.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah.

[Doc]

Right.

[Bryn Tucker]

And how. How do you even attempt to balance family life, work life? Because It's. It's work, you know, And.

[Doc]

And.

[Bryn Tucker]

But I feel like I. Games, there can be no balance because this is a very, very risky game you're playing.

[Billy Queen]

No, as it turned out, I had no clue. As it turned out, I lost everything. I lost my kids. I lost them. I lost my friends. I lost everything. The longer I was in, the more dangerous it got. And it finally got to the point where I couldn't go see my children anymore. I can talk to them on the phone, but that was it. I couldn't go back to the neighborhood. I couldn't go back to my friends. I couldn't go back to atf.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

I was there by myself.

[Bryn Tucker]

And when you get isolated like that, I mean, I feel like at some point.

[Doc]

Do you.

[Bryn Tucker]

You're still working. I mean, you still have, you know what you're there for.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

But at some point, like, do you even lose sight. I don't know if, say, lose sight of it. I don't mean it like that, but do you. Like, I'm in too deep. Like, this is. This is much bigger than I ever thought it was that it was going to be. I'm. You know, they're not all bad guys.

[Doc]

Right.

[Bryn Tucker]

I mean, I'm friends with these guys now. The lines have really blurred. Maybe that's the way I want to say it. Like, after a certain point, you're like, what's.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, well, I want you to understand. I know. I want everybody to understand. When you make the decision to put those colors down, you're on. You're down for the club. Whatever they're going to do, I don't care what you say. If you're out, you got that patch on. They decide they're going to kill somebody, you're going to kill them right along with them. There is no timeout. There's no, I'm only doing this on the weekend stuff. You're down for the club. Whatever they're going to do. And it came down to that. Came down to murder. It came down to, you're going to steal these guys motorcycles. You're going to. You're going to haul this dope.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

You're going to participate in this sexual shit. You're going to. You may end up participating in rape, murder.

[Doc]

Right.

[Billy Queen]

We only lucked out. And I'm saying that we only lucked out that we didn't get caught up in a murder. I participated in three armed robberies, and I was scared to death that somebody was going to drop the hammer on the victim in front of Me. And I was praying to God that the victims would just give them their money, just give them their property, just don't buck them. Because my line in the sand with the murder, if they're going to kill the dude, I'm not going to let him kill him in front of me. And I knew I'd shoot one, I'd shoot two maybe, but I got three or four other models there. They're going to kill me.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And after doing three of those, it started getting to the point where I knew that it was going to catch up with me.

[Doc]

Yeah, I knew it.

[Bryn Tucker]

And again, even it goes back to that, you know, that bar fight. Just being there, you can. You can slightly nudge things to have. To have a better outcome that would. That wouldn't have been there. If. If, you know, have you not been there? Replace it with another criminal. And you're like. And the other guy that's in your spot is. Is bugging them to shoot him.

[Billy Queen]

Now go ahead and shoot him.

[Bryn Tucker]

Let's take care of this. But you can be there as a voice of reason. But again, but you can only push so hard.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, that's exactly right.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

If they've made up their mind, if you're on your own, the way to kill somebody. And we had gotten orders from a national group to kill people. Our chapter, San Fernando Valley, ordered to kill these people. And I had been riding around with three other Mongols in my car, all armed, looking for guy to kill. And when I'm riding around, I'm saying, oh, God, what are you going to do, Billy? Oh, God, what are you going to do? Oh, God, what are you going to do?

[Doc]

Right?

[Billy Queen]

And just. Just again, lucked out, couldn't find the guy we're going to kill. But. But that weighs on it because what are you going to do? I mean, it's coming down to, you know, there's something serious now. I mean, the most serious thing that you can think of is about to happen.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

And unlike normal operations, you're planning something. You have time to figure out what you're going to do, and then, you know, you go execute it and you come back. But when you're living this lifestyle, yeah, it's on the go. If they want to throw you in the car and be like, oh, Billy, get in the car. Yeah, we're on our way to kill someone like you, you got to figure.

[Billy Queen]

Out you're in the corner.

[Tyler]

You're going to fly, baby.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

You're figuring out on the fly, you know, and we talk about this all the time. No one makes the best decision. You know, on the fly. You can make. You make the best decision you can, but you always look back and go, oh, you know that there was a better option right there I didn't think of. And it goes back to a little bit of luck. Like I said, it. Well, it goes back to the right person for the job that can think on the fly. But it's hard to assess for that. It's hard to train someone for that. You just. You need a little bit of luck. You need the right guy.

[Doc]

And it's.

[Bryn Tucker]

I can't think of a worse situation really to be in.

[Billy Queen]

You. You're going to find yourself if, if you decide to do that. You're going to find yourself in situations that you did not plan for and that they don't get any worse.

[Bryn Tucker]

You can't plan for them.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, you can't plan.

[Tyler]

Especially when they get in the car because they're saying, let's go murder somebody. But you're like, am I going to be murdered? That's always in the back of my head.

[Billy Queen]

Listen. And. And that happened to me. And that happened to me. Absolutely.

[Tyler]

That's my favorite story in the book.

[Billy Queen]

You heard it. You read the book. Well, you're gonna have to qualify. If you're a mongol, you have to have a gun of a certain caliber. And you're going to take you out and you're going to shoot with them. Prove that you're a shooter. So we knew that we were going to have to do that when I got a call one day from Domingo who said, tomorrow morning, come over. We're going to ride up to Sen Cal in central California. We're going to go shoot. I knew it's going to have to go shoot. We're going to go shoot tomorrow. Why in the hell are we going up to Sen. Cal, you know, you don't ask questions. You just do what you're told, right? So I'm asking myself this question. What the hell are we going up there for? So I ride over to Domingo's place. The next morning, I pick Domingo up. And not to get into everything. We hide the guns on the car, get in the car and just start driving. Just start heading north in California. After about an hour and a half, two hours driving, we come up to a little town. Turn left here, turn right here, turn left here. I don't know where we are, right? And the whole time I'm thinking, what the fuck are we going up here for? This don't make sense. Well, we're going up here to shoot. Well, we knew where the shooting ranges were up there. We didn't go to the shooting ranges.

[Doc]

Yeah, at that point I would have.

[Billy Queen]

We didn't go, hey, Billy, turn left up here. Hey, turn right up here. Turn left. We went in the middle of nowhere. Ban in orange grove, through a little dirt road. I'm doing what I'm told. Are you.

[Tyler]

You're fully patched at this point?

[Billy Queen]

No, no, I'm a prospect.

[Tyler]

Okay, I got you.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Billy Queen]

And we finally came to a little open area where people gonna dumping trash and stuff out there. And now we're being followed by two other carloads of Mongols.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Billy Queen]

And we pull up. I get out of the car. Domingo doesn't say, get your gun. All the Mongols got out of their cars. They semi circle me. And then the National Sergeant at arms comes up to me, starts accusing me of being a cop. Billy, how long was your fucking academy? What? What the hell are you talking about? Tell us how long your fucking academy was, Billy. I'm like, red Dog, what are you doing this for? What are you doing this for? I ain't no cop. Come on, man, tell us how long the fucking academy was, Billy. And I'm thinking, shit, what I got myself into. I'm in the middle of nowhere.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

I got no backup. So Red Dog picks his gun up, he puts it to my head. He said, who'd you tell you were going to be with the Mongols today? I said, come on, Red Dog didn't tell nobody I was going to be with the Mongols. Who'd you tell you were coming up here? I didn't know where the hell I was coming. Red Dog, what you doing this for? Red Dog said, the gun in my head, he says, so if I put a bullet through your head right now, nobody's going to know where to start looking for you. Is that right? I played it as far as I could play it. I said, that's right, Domingo. And he looked at me and said, go. Turn around. Now, all these Mongols all got guns. And they says, go out there and set targets up for us, Billy. I turned my back to those Mongols all armed. And I thought, this is it. You're going to feel the bullets coming through your back.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And I walked out to a certain point, stuff. And I bent over, picked up a can, picked up a milk jug to set up and stuff. Turned around and looked. They're all in a circle, just. They're not pointing their guns at me. And at that point I thought, they're not Gonna kill me right now.

[Tyler]

And did you ever think before you turned around to maybe I've got a fighting chance to shoot and run, or did you just.

[Billy Queen]

I had no chance.

[Bryn Tucker]

You had a gun.

[Billy Queen]

I didn't have a gun. I did not have a gun. Nope.

[Tyler]

That's right.

[Billy Queen]

The only guy that, that didn't have a gun was me. And I might. If I took off and ran, I might get five or six steps before they started opening up.

[Tyler]

And we talked about last night a little bit. But did you think. Do you think that that was a test that they would have done to anybody or. Or do you think Red Dog thought you were legitimately a cop?

[Billy Queen]

Red Dog thought it, okay, but he couldn't prove it. Yeah, they. I turned in.

[Tyler]

Were you well liked by the other guys?

[Billy Queen]

I was well liked by my chapter guys. Nobody else really knew me, but my chapter guys did. And I had already done that knife thing with somebody trying to stab me, and they did. But Red Dog was a problem. He was going to be a problem for the whole time that I was in there. And that was miserable. I can't imagine.

[Tyler]

You probably got PTSD from that.

[Bryn Tucker]

I mean, I mean, it sounds like.

[Doc]

A.

[Bryn Tucker]

Scene out of, you know, some sort of Hollywood movie or some TV show. And it's.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

And it's. It's crazy enough to watch that on screen. And I'm just talking Pretendo land. You watch that on screen, you're nervous for that guy. But guess what?

[Doc]

That's.

[Bryn Tucker]

That's. That ain't real life. Like, this is real life. I don't even know how you go back to work the next day.

[Billy Queen]

Well, listen, I wasn't gonna go back to work.

[Bryn Tucker]

I wouldn't. I wouldn't blame you if you didn't.

[Billy Queen]

A guy came out with a street sweeper. You know what that is?

[Bryn Tucker]

A street sweeper. Like the traditional, like the big vehicle street sweepers.

[Tyler]

The machine gun.

[Billy Queen]

The machine. Oh, no, it's a shotgun. But it's got a. But it's got a drum magazine on it. 12 gauge shotgun with a drum magazine.

[Bryn Tucker]

No, I've never heard it called that alone.

[Billy Queen]

Now I'm going to. Yeah, it's a street sweeper. He comes out with he. And we're all standing there, the Mongols all standing there. He's standing facing us all. And he opens up with the damn 12 gauge street sweeper in front of us, just blowing rocks and dirt and up. And I'm. And I'm. I'm covering my eyes up. So I'm not gonna get Hit in the eyes. And. And they're all laughing. They're all laughing. And I'm thinking, you stupid son of a. I'm thinking, I'm gonna get killed by accident, Right? Because they just want to kill me. They're gonna do some stupid like that, and I'm gonna get killed.

[Bryn Tucker]

Range day with the Mongols.

[Billy Queen]

Not a lot of rules, so.

[Bryn Tucker]

But they didn't even pick up their brass.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

Beer cans and shotguns on the way home. I'm thinking, this is crazy. This is insane. I'm not doing this anymore. And I was going to go tell the case agent. I said, look, this is to get way out of control.

[Bryn Tucker]

You got what you got at this point, guys.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah. This is way out of control. The ATF was up there, and they could hear the shots going. They couldn't come in, but they could hear the shots going off. And ATF's talking to themselves. Did they just kill Billy? Just kill Billy? And they were talking about, should we go in? Should we go in? Well, hell, if those shots we heard were shooting Billy, he's dead. He's dead.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

So it's like you said, like, damn, we'll just wait and see.

[Doc]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

Damn if you do, damn if you don't. With those guys.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, yeah, they made the right call. But on the way home, I was thinking, I can't do this anymore. Don't take me out somewhere like that. Accuse me of being a cop and shit. And I really thought they were going to shoot me. And unless you've been there, unless you can feel that, it's hard to explain.

[Bryn Tucker]

Yeah, I can't imagine.

[Doc]

Yeah, I can't.

[Billy Queen]

So on the way home, I thought, you know, I'm not going to get put in a position like that again. I'm just going to tell them, hey, John, I ain't doing this anymore. But I went back to the undercover pad, laid down and stuff. I got up, looked at myself in the mirror. Next morning, I said, you're going to let the ATF down? You're going to let the U.S. attorney's office down. You're going to let your buddies down and shit. And I got back on that motorcycle and I rode in again and again and again and again into the murder situations, into the armed robbery situations, into the possible rape situations, again and again and again for two years until I said, that's it. I know it's going to happen.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

There. I'm either going to get killed or I'm going to be in the middle of a murder, which I Said I can't let happen what?

[Bryn Tucker]

Fast forward to that. Of sorts. Was there, was there an end state that you guys were working towards that would have been the definitive end to it? Or essentially you guys are just going to go and collect as much as you could for as long as you could?

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, that wasn't the plan either. We just started out, we'll get next to him, we'll buy dope, we'll buy guns and stuff. And one thing just led to another, to another, to another. And they would do things. They kill somebody, they murder somebody. Hey, Billy, you got to get information on this murder. How are you going to do it? Hey, there was an incident out in Palm Springs. No, it was Arizona. We're riding back, we got machine guns in the truck. We've got a follow truck and it's got machine guns locked up in a case and stuff. We're on our way back, we're in a line and it's dead ass. Nighttime, midnight, one o' clock in the morning. We're riding back, we're not blowing the wheels off the bikes and stuff. Damn tractor trailer truck not paying attention to what the hell he's doing. He runs up on the back of the damn Mongols and runs over two of them. No, he drags one of them till it drug his leg off. So obviously we're all stopped and stuff and you know, trying to take care of the Mongol, which got no leg now, and blood's all over everywhere. So we got the clothes off this Mongol and stuff and throwing them in the back of the of this truck, waiting for the ambulance to get there and stuff. Ambulance gets there, picks him up, takes him to the hospital and shit, you know, that all gets kind of settled down in a couple hours. We back on the road. We're going back to Los Angeles. The guy's in the pickup truck now, they got these machine guns in the back of the pickup truck with a bunch of bloody clothes and shit. They stop on the side of the road to take a piss up, pulls the damn cops. Cop walks up, hey boys, what y' all doing and shit, you know, and they got mongol tattoos all over my shit. So this cop is like, yeah, nothing. Yeah, and it's a pickup truck. It's open their back, guys shining his light. There's a bunch of clues soaked in blood and shit. These guys know they got backup coming and shit. They don't got a murder scene. They know these guys have killed somebody, right? And I hey, what's in the box? Nothing. It's locked though.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Billy Queen]

It's locked and they can't get in the box. And it's got machine guns in there. So, you know, obviously they seized the truck. They. They're sure they got a murder. See, they got Mongols.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And so they popped the damn box. Sure. Shit. They got machine guns in the. In the box. They got bloody clothes. They know that belongs to a murderer and shit. So those guys end up going to jail for the mur. For the machine guns and stuff. They're trying to find out about this, who they killed and stuff, which the case agents call him. Billy. Hey, Billy, man, we got two guys in jail and we know they committed a murder. Now what happened back in Arizona? Damn tractor trailer truck ran over two Mongols and shit. The bloody clothes are from the Mongols. They got ran over and shit. All the dudes make a phone call and shit. Oh, yeah. But now the DA charged the guys with the machine guns. They said it's a bad search. You didn't have the PC to go in the box. Well, Billy knew the machine guns were in there, so. Okay, just let it go. Obviously going to turn the machine guns back over to the Mongols. So the United States Attorney's office said, did you know the machine guns were in there? Hell, yeah, I knew they were in there.

[Doc]

Right.

[Billy Queen]

Boom. Feds charged the Mongols with possession of machine guns, but that's for two years. That's the way it went. And that's the tip of the iceberg. From the time that I was called to participate in murder, time that they had beat their wives up and stuff. I mean, to the point where. And I have to back up on this. We're breaking in a place one night and I'm holding a window, and this Mongol, he slips with the knife and stabbed me in the hand right here. And so we're breaking in because we're going to have this big sex thing inside this damn place and shit. So now we ain't having a sex day. I'm covered with blood and shit. I got to be sewed up. Now I'm going to. And I look like shit, you know, I look like a damn Mongol. And I thought, you know, if I drive myself to the damn hospital in la, I'm gonna be sitting there all night long to try to get a few stitches in my hand. I went home because I'm a medic. I'm an ATF medic. And we can sew, we can make sutures, we can go inside, like Special Forces medic and stuff. Yeah, we had the same training.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

So I Went home so myself up.

[Tyler]

No numbing, nothing.

[Billy Queen]

No, I had a lot of cane. No, I'm not a Rambo dude. No, I ain't Rambo.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

I go home and get my girlfriend up. Hey, I got to have some help, you know? And, you know, by this time, it's kind of stopped bleeding, okay? And she gets up, and I go over to the sink, turn the water on, put my hand under, and it just. Blood just all over the sink. When she does this, eyes roll back in her head, and bam. Out in the floor she goes. And she's on the floor trying to suck her tongue down her throat. So now I'm trying to get her turned over so she doesn't kill herself with her tongue, right? So I got out with the suture stuff, and. And, you know, you got to have two hands to sew yourself, to tie the sutures and stuff. So I'm using my teeth, you know, and tying these sutures, and I get about three in it. And it's like, you know, fuck that. Three. Three's all I'm gonna do.

[Bryn Tucker]

Three is better than zero.

[Billy Queen]

Next day, when I ride into the Mongols and stuff, they were like, oh, man, sorry about stabbing your ass last night and shit. Don't worry about it. I sewed myself up. What? You sewed yourself up? And then I had to come up with a story. Oh, yeah, man. I was a medic in the army, and I still had leftovers and stuff, so I had stitches in my. Oh, yeah. So what do you think happened after that?

[Bryn Tucker]

Hey, Billy, look at my head now. You're the motorcycle club.

[Billy Queen]

I got some weird thing going on down here. Yeah.

[Tyler]

You're a medic, right?

[Billy Queen]

Yeah. So that opened up another one. Yeah. Hey, Billy, can you sew my dog up? He missed a fight last night.

[Bryn Tucker]

That's a great way to build rapport.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

That'S right.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

I get a call in the middle of the night, Billy. This is after I sewed myself up. So they call me up in the middle of the night, billy, you got to come over, man. You got to come over. Evil beat the shit out of his girlfriend, man. Her face is all fucked up. You got to come over and sew her up. I'm like, I ain't doing that. You couldn't take her to damn emergency room and shit? Hell, he just got out of jail. He just got out of jail for beating her up. We take her back to the. The emergency room, and he's gonna be back in jail. Get your ass over here. And I'm Like I can't do it. Get. Billy, get your ass over there. Well, I got on my bike, I rolled over to the evil's place. I went back in the bedroom where this girl's laying on a bed and stuff and her face is all scotch taped together and I pull the scotch tape off of it and I was like, it split all the way through up to her nose. I said, she got to be sewed up inside and out.

[Tyler]

It's a little bit out of my.

[Billy Queen]

You gotta take her to the emergency room. No, they ain't gonna do that. They put scotch tape back on her face and it's like, yeah, poor girl. Yeah, it's like. So I get on my motorcycle and I ride back to my real house, pick up my suture equipment and ride back over and I sew her up inside and out and I got the lidocaine and stuff. So I lidocaine and her face up and shit and sewed her up and. And I told, look, I've sewed her up, but she's gonna, she's going to get infected. There ain't no doubt about it. She's going to get infected and that's going to kill her.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

If you don't take her to the damn doctor, that's what's going to happen.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

So we had a guy in the club, they called him Doc, Doc Cavassos. He ended up being the same guy. Yeah, same guy. He's got access to all the antibiotics and stuff.

[Doc]

Okay.

[Billy Queen]

So I'm telling you, if you just get her penicillin, you know, she's got to be taste, she's got to be on penicillin for a while or she's going to get infected. So Kvasso gets the penicillin and stuff she sewed up. Later on when she does see a doctor, she says, how does this look to you? Doctor said, that looks really good. Somebody did a good job.

[Bryn Tucker]

I'll take that compliment, doc.

[Billy Queen]

But the, the. The whole two years and two months were just like that. You did not know what was coming every day.

[Tyler]

You got anxiety now because of that.

[Bryn Tucker]

Or life now just. Yeah, life's easy now.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

Once you live through that, life's easy. Is that stressful? That's a stressful day. Tell you about it. Let me tell you about a stressful two years. So after what was the breaking point? You know, either you or, or the ATF was like, all right, two years and two months is enough.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, well, it came down to two years. Now you're in for two Years now they've murdered people. Now they've raped women. Now they've beaten the shit out of people they kidnapped. All this stuff is happening. And every. Every day. I knew you're going to be in the middle of it tomorrow. You're going to be in the middle of tomorrow. You're going to have to drop the hammer or they're going to drop the hammer on you. I felt it.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And once you start feeling it, you start to act different.

[Doc]

Right.

[Billy Queen]

If you're not a confident Mongol, you start acting scared. They're going to pick up on it. They're going to see it. So I went to the case agent, I said, that's it. I can't do it no more. It's two years. Something bad is going to happen. They've already murdered people. And thank God we hadn't been in the middle of it.

[Bryn Tucker]

Yeah, that's it. Is it also almost one of those things. The longer you're in, the more you're trusted so that the higher likely chance you're going, like you're going to do something more dangerous with them, you know, I mean, like, they're not going to bring a prospect along, you know, possibly on something that they really want to keep, you know, absolutely isolated. So the longer you're in there, it's actually the. The higher possibility of something. Well, you being a part of something you don't want to be a part of.

[Billy Queen]

Yours was like a game changer. My mother died while I was in after a year and a half. And you can't take time out. You can't. Oh, I've got to go with my kids, you know, I gotta do. No, you're in it 24 7.

[Doc]

Right.

[Bryn Tucker]

It's a lifestyle.

[Billy Queen]

When my mother died, she's really my aunt, but she's the one that raised me. She was my mama. And I told the Mongols, time out, boys. I'm going home. My mama lives in North Carolina. I told atf, I'm going home. I'm out of here. And I went back to North Carolina and buried my mama. And I got on that plane, went back to Los Angeles. Make a long story short, ATF didn't say a word to me about my mama. Not a word. Get back on that bike and get in.

[Tyler]

Your supposed brothers, right?

[Bryn Tucker]

Yeah. Your real supposed brothers.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

I went over to Evil's house, went up to Evil's door, was going to reach out to do the handshake with Evil, and he grabbed me, he put me in a big bear hug, and he held Me. And he said, billy, I love you, brother. He said, I'm sorry about your mama. And I could feel something inside of me that happened. And the next Mongol that came in, I wanted to handshake that guy. He grabbed me, he bear hugged me and he held me and he said, billy, I love you, brother. He said, I'm sorry about your mama. And I could feel it. I could feel it just coming up through my body. And next, Mongol after mongol after Mongol. And I told myself that night, I don't want to be Billy Queen. I want to be Billy St. John. They didn't give a shit about Billy Queen at atf. But the Mongols, they loved me. And they told me me that they loved me. And I felt that love.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And it was emotional because I'd lost my mama. And here's these guys. I'm sorry about your mama, Billy. We love you, brother.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And they. There was nothing that they couldn't do for me that night. And I was to the point where I don't want to be Billy Queen, I want to be Billy St. John right off.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And the only thing way I could deal with it, I started drinking. I drank myself into a stupor and fell asleep on the floor in that hotel we were at. And about 4:00 clock in the morning, Mongols came in and they're shaking me and they're shaking me. Wake up, Billy. Wake up. Wake up. And I'm like, what? What? They grabbed a couple of women and they raped them. And one of them had gotten away. And now the whole place is surrounded by SWAT teams from cities all around the area. And they're calling on all the Mongols out, shotgun gunpoint and stuff. And I'm out on my knees in this yard area with my hands on top of my head thinking, what the fuck are you going to do, Billy? You can't rape women. You can't run off with these guys and stuff. It was like getting hit in the face with a wet squirrel. Back to reality.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

God spoke to you.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

Just the help give you some assistance.

[Bryn Tucker]

Just the drastic difference between them because like I said, and I kind of alluded to earlier, like they. Now, you know, these guys, they're your friends. Like they're there. There is. People can be as mad as they want about this particular statement, but there are good qualities to them. There are good qualities from. But at the end of the day, you can't. You can't just take the good qualities and not. And not take all the evil things they do into account and get ripped Back into reality.

[Billy Queen]

I kind of recognized you had two groups of people. You had guys that were willing to do anything and two include murder. And then you had guys that would murder and they liked it. They would rape and they liked it and they would do. They were cold blooded and you couldn't deal with them. They were scary, but not all of them were like that. Not all of them had what we called heart. Yeah, those guys that had heart, they were scary, they were dangerous, they'd already killed and they would kill again. And I knew if those guys found out that I wasn't Billy St. John, that I was Billy Queen, they put a bullet through me. Yeah, they hugged me, said, I love you, but they hugged Billy St. John.

[Bryn Tucker]

That's right.

[Billy Queen]

And they loved Billy St. John.

[Doc]

Right.

[Billy Queen]

But they put a bullet through Billy Queen for sure.

[Bryn Tucker]

Well, after two years, what was, what was the. Was the result of all your hard work?

[Billy Queen]

We sent 54 of them to prison for murder. To the gun dealing, to the dope dealing, to the beatings, to the stealing motorcycles to. You name it.

[Tyler]

RICO was a RICO case.

[Billy Queen]

Later ON they were RICOed and I had to testify in a RICO. Okay, prosecution, but it was a. Never before had any law enforcement agency been able to do that. We were the first to be able to go undercover, stay under for more than two years, and then send that many people to prison.

[Tyler]

That's prison too. That's not even county jail.

[Billy Queen]

That's prison.

[Tyler]

And I can only imagine the court process for you was awful grueling. Well, once you're out, you're sucked right back in.

[Billy Queen]

Well, my life was over. My personal life was gone. Yeah, they walked in the day that it all went down. I say they ATF guys from Washington D.C. walked in, out in Los Angeles when it was all going down. They walked up to me and said, here, Billy put a wallet down in front of me, said, here's your new life. I was somebody else under another name, had an address in Plano, Texas. My cars were registered under that name and stuff. They put me in a Suburban with a ATF SRT team and drove me from LA to Plano, Texas.

[Bryn Tucker]

That's awesome.

[Billy Queen]

Put me out with my dog is all I had and said, we'll be in touch. And there I was in Plano, Texas by myself.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

Were you still with the atf?

[Billy Queen]

Oh yeah.

[Tyler]

That's where you were newly assigned?

[Billy Queen]

I'm a. No, I'm not assigned. I was. They put me there to hide out.

[Tyler]

Oh, so you were just hiding? That was your job.

[Billy Queen]

Jump out here. Here's where you live, right? This is your place. Here's your cars and stuff. We'll be in touch.

[Bryn Tucker]

And in a weird way, your, your, your. Your job is to be this new person, Bill.

[Billy Queen]

What?

[Bryn Tucker]

This new person. Whatever.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was a new person.

[Bryn Tucker]

That's right.

[Billy Queen]

And I had upcoming nearly two years of testifying against these guys. They would call me up, hey, Billy, I had a great big box of tapes. We're going to trial on this case. Billy, pull the tapes out for here, here, here. Start transcribing tapes. We're going to go to trial on this guy or this guy's coming up. And this incident in court. Get on an airplane. SWAT team pick me up in Los Angeles and stuff. I'd hide out till court. They'd take me in the back. In the back ways, courthouses, up through the. To the courtroom. I'd walk in where the judge would walk in, sit down, testify, back out, SWAT team, back to the airport.

[Bryn Tucker]

That's right, because you are number one on the Mongols hit list that time for a long time, fresh.

[Billy Queen]

And I'll tell you this. This is the way it went down that day. I was in the car with. With the SWAT team with srt and started getting phone calls. By now I got a phone. Started getting phone calls. Hey, Billy, you know what's going on, man? You know what's going on? You got to get rid of your shit. You got anything in there? They're hitting everybody. I mean, like. Yeah, yeah, I know what you're talking about. I got rid of my. I'm okay, okay. And then I got a phone call from a guy by the name of Top Hat out of Florida.

[Doc]

Okay?

[Billy Queen]

Top Hat says, billy, you know what's going on? Yeah, I know what's going on. He said, billy, we know who did it. We know who rolled on us. And I was getting ready to take the hit, buddy. And he said, it's Preacher from South Bay. Everybody knew that son of a bitch was a cop, man. They're on their way down there to kill him right now.

[Bryn Tucker]

Well, I don't think it's him.

[Billy Queen]

So. Top Hat. I'm good, right?

[Bryn Tucker]

Sorry, bud.

[Billy Queen]

Taking one foot of gosh.

[Doc]

Oh.

[Billy Queen]

So I'm trying to talk Top Hat out of Top hat. You got to be sure. Just kill somebody if they're not the real deal. Do that. We know it. We know it. We knew it a long time ago. The goon squad's on the way down to kill him now. And I couldn't talk him out of it. And finally I said, top hat, you listen to me, and you listen to me good. It wasn't Preacher. It was me. My name's not Billy St. John. It's Billy Queen. It's William Queen. I'm a special agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. And then I heard the phone go.

[Tyler]

I got chills when you just said that.

[Billy Queen]

Damn. And then I started getting phone calls. Yay. Billy. Are you all right, man? Yeah, I'm all right. So where are you, Billy? I don't think I'm gonna give up that information.

[Bryn Tucker]

I'm somewhere in la.

[Billy Queen]

Then later on, it was, we're gonna kill you youu know, after a couple of those phone calls, I just said, damn. So I hid for the next two years, testifying against these guys.

[Doc]

Wow.

[Billy Queen]

But I thought, I told myself, you'll go back to being a father again. You'll go back to being a real federal agent again. Life will be normal again. None of that happened. Yeah, they put me in Plano, Texas. They put my children in Miami, Florida. Oh, Billy, don't worry. We're gonna fly your kids to see. See you. We're gonna fly you to Miami to see your kids in the next two years. I got to see my children one time.

[Doc]

Wow.

[Billy Queen]

In the next two years, Life never was the same again.

[Bryn Tucker]

Here's. You know, here's. Here's the. The difficult question I'm sure you've asked yourself. What was it worth it?

[Billy Queen]

To the people of California, it was worth it. Cause we took a lot of really bad people off the streets to atf. It was worth it. They made all kinds of noise and stuff. To Billy Queen, there was no way it was worth it. If I would have known what was going to happen, there's no way I would have done it. It needed to be done, but not by somebody that was going to lose everything. Somebody that could have packed up and been an agent somewhere else in the country is the way it should have been. But in my situation, the Mongols, once they put their arms around you, once they say that they love you, they can't see you as an undercover agent. They see you as a brother that rolled over them. And I was going to end up dealing with that for the rest of my life.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And I deal with it today. But, sir, I don't let them dictate how I'm going to live my life.

[Doc]

Right.

[Billy Queen]

If they come, they come as ready as I can be. But, hey, you know what? I'm 75 years old. If they do, I'LL give them what I got. I'm out here at 75. Maybe I can get two 22 or 23 year old dudes.

[Tyler]

That Toby Key song ain't as good.

[Billy Queen]

As I once was.

[Bryn Tucker]

Well, and this really just kind of scratches a surface of the whole story because you wrote a book about it that goes into a great detail. Tons of stories. We're up against a hard time because for some previous engagements you have. But there's no way we'd be here for six hours. You tell us all the stories or longer. And it's right, it's right there in your book.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, it is. The book's called under and Alone. It covers the two years that I rode with the Mongols and it covers in detail a lot of things that wasn't covered here.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

But it is a New York Times bestseller, so I guess I did.

[Doc]

Heck. Yeah. It's.

[Bryn Tucker]

It's.

[Billy Queen]

Man.

[Bryn Tucker]

Well, I'm. I get it doesn't. Does. It'll never hold the weight that. That it should. But I tell you, I thank you for your service.

[Doc]

You know, I just. Yeah, it's. It's.

[Bryn Tucker]

It's humbling to get to sit there and hear. Hear those stories and, and like you said, you can't even really express how you felt, how horrible it was, how you know everything about it. It's. I just can't. It's just have to tell you thank you. It's all I can do.

[Billy Queen]

You know what? I'm so glad that I can be here with a. With a bunch of soldiers and stuff because that's who I am. And I thank you for, for the service that you guys have given our country and for standing up the way that you've stood up.

[Bryn Tucker]

And, and again, if. If that service wasn't enough, you're running for the sheriff of Guilford County. You're not. You're not done.

[Billy Queen]

No, I'm not done. No, I'm not done. I did everything that I could do as a soldier, as a federal agent, but I don't think I'm through. I can contribute in ways that your ordinary law enforcement guys can't. Simply because of the background that I've got from working all over the United States and even working undercover operations and understanding where the bad guys are coming from. I am running for sheriff for Guilford County. I will make a difference.

[Bryn Tucker]

Some. Something tells me the deputies of that county are pulling for you.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Bryn Tucker]

Very much. Enjoy to work with you back. We got our back in too. And I'm glad you're able to Come here and hope some, some people in your county are. Are part of our large. Our large audience and hears this and gets behind your. Your effort. I truly, truly mean that. The last. The last question I have.

[Tyler]

I don't think he's ready for it.

[Bryn Tucker]

I don't know if you're ready for it. It's been a heavy episode, as it should have been. There's a lot of. A lot of realism, a lot of things to digest for that. So tell us a funny story.

[Billy Queen]

A funny story after that. Oh, my goodness.

[Bryn Tucker]

Hey, you could take one from Vietnam, Green Berets.

[Billy Queen]

A lot of funny stories and all that.

[Bryn Tucker]

Something silly always happens, though. There's always something that you're like, are you kidding me? That makes. Take. Takes the moment like, I didn't see.

[Billy Queen]

That happening, you know? God, I wish you to warn me on that. I would have come up with one. I'm trying to think.

[Doc]

Oh, no, we'll. We'll.

[Bryn Tucker]

Yeah, we'll. We'll cut out the. The. Well, yeah, yeah.

[Doc]

This.

[Bryn Tucker]

This dead space every now and again. It usually just comes like, oh, I got a funny story for you. And sometimes it takes a few minutes, but it's always worth the wait.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah. Mongols. There's a Rancid. Rancid. I know you've heard the tales of stories. That guy could drink more liquor than anybody ever seen in my life. But this guy could really do. And to get in good favor with him, I was always buying his liquor, okay? And he was drinking some high dollar stuff, and I say, I was buying this liquor, ATF was buying this liquor, you know? But. But one night I got him in the car, he's drunk on his ass, and I'm going to take him home. I'm in this car that's all shot up, it's got holes all in it that went from an undercover operation that went bad before. And I'm rolling. It's nighttime. And I roll past a Los Angeles county sheriff's car. And I just thought his lights were shining so he could see inside the car. Rancid looks like a piece of shit. So do I. And when I saw him pull out, I knew he's gonna jam us. Rancid's drunk on his ass. I got Mongol colors in the. In the back of the car. Well, I'm not really worried because I'm not drunk, right? But Rancid, soon as that damn deputy stops us and Rancid says he's gonna jump out and run. And we're next to a school and they got A big old fence, you know, And Rancid's like, pull on up, man. Pull on up. You know, okay, jump out, run at a fence right there. You know, it's it. So I pulled on up and, you know, I knew the deputies are not going to like that shit. I pull on up past where he can jump out and run. Now I get out of the car. Hey, guys, I got my hands up and stuff. Yeah, hey, guys, how you doing? All that kind of shit. Well, they're almost. They ain't got their guns out, but they're at that point, right?

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And I'm waiting for rancid to jump out the car and take off. Well, he's so fucking drunk, he can't find the damn handle on the door to open it up. So I'm. I'm around the back of the car right now, and the deputy. I saw one of the deputies go up to the car, and they open it. Boom. And the bottle, he's got a fifth.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And a bottle rolls out of the car. Bam. On I'm thought, sell him. We're gonna go to jail. And first thing out of Ranch's mouth, you, right? Fuck you.

[Bryn Tucker]

And I'm like, let's start it out like that.

[Billy Queen]

Yeah, I don't want to go to jail.

[Doc]

Right.

[Billy Queen]

See, you know, I'm stinking this. I'm not hollering at him. Jesus Christ, Cooperate, you know. Shit. Fuck you. What's your name? William. Gun. What? And he give him another name. It said, it's this, you know, I'm listening to all this shit, and then one of the deputies turns to me and he says, you got anything on you that I should see, I shouldn't see. As soon as he said that, you know, I got a switchblade knife in my pocket, and they're illegal out there in California. And I'm thinking, son of a bitch. I'm gonna go to jail over this.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

So ransom starts raising hell again. The deputies turned toward ransom when it did. I went in my damn pocket and I pulled that damn switchblade out and I threw the damn switchblade just in time for the deputy to turn around and watch it go. And I thought, son of a. I'm going to jail, buddy.

[Bryn Tucker]

Of all the things I've done. You're not drunk driving. It's. It's a switchblade.

[Billy Queen]

It's a stupid switchblade. You know, I'm going to jail. Yeah. And. And I got hooked multiple times. And I'm kind of getting used to it.

[Bryn Tucker]

You know, suit in the position, right?

[Billy Queen]

This is the last one. I'm sitting on the side of the road and they've stopped my car. It's one with the bullet holes in it, okay? For the life of me, the damn tag ran out on it and the cops are just drilling my ass. I'm sitting on the side of the road. Can we search your car? Can we look in your car? Is there anything in there? Well, I got a gun in the car. I don't ordinarily carry a gun, but it's underneath the seat of the car. I know if they find it, hella going to jail again. So, no, you can't search the car. And they were like, yeah, you know what? The tag's out on that car. So we're going to tow the car in and we're going to do an inventory on the car. Well, at that point, I had my phone thing. I pulled my phone out and I dialed up the case agent, you know, you need to come over here. I'm going to jail.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

Well, I picked up the phone and I'm saying, john, this is where I am. You need to get over here. And the cop, he runs up to me, snatches the phone away from me and shit. Another deputy, he sees the gun under the car, he just raises up and he say, he yells, gone. As soon as it did, you know, I'm hooked on the side of the road getting ready to go to jail again. Again. And so the cop says, who's John? I just said, he's a friend of mine.

[Doc]

Yeah.

[Billy Queen]

And the cop said, well, you know, if John rolls by and cracks off a round, the next round is going to be going through you. And I'm sitting there handcuffed and I'm looking at the deputy. I said, that's going to kind of look bad with me being handcuffed. And the deputy looked at me, said, don't worry, I'll take the cuff.