Uvalde Breakdown

Summary

The Antihero Podcast: Uvalde Breakdown – Detailed Summary

Episode Information

• Title: Uvalde Breakdown
• Host/Author: The Antihero Podcast
• Release Date: March 3, 2025
• Description: Part Delta Force. Part Street Cop. All Truth.

---

Introduction

In this poignant episode of The Antihero Podcast, hosts Brent Tucker and Tyler delve deep into the tragic Uvalde school shooting, offering a critical analysis of the law enforcement response. Joined by Chance Cooper, a former Kansas City Metro Police officer and current COO of Apollo, the discussion navigates the complexities of police tactics, training deficiencies, and cultural shifts within law enforcement that may have contributed to the mishandling of the incident.

1. Initial Reactions and Misidentification of the Threat

Brent Tucker opens the discussion expressing frustration over the timeline of events, questioning why more couldn't have been done to prevent casualties. He states:

“How many kids were shot before you got there and are bleeding out and need medical attention now?” — Brent Tucker [00:00]

The conversation quickly shifts to the critical misidentification of the shooter as a "barricaded subject" rather than an active shooter. Chance Cooper highlights that initially, dispatchers were aware of shots being fired but possibly failed to effectively communicate this urgency to all responding officers.

“The problem is they got stuck in this plan.” — Brent Tucker [60:35]

This misclassification delayed an aggressive response, which Cooper argues was necessary to prevent further loss of life.

2. Leadership Failures and Lack of Incident Command

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the failures in leadership and the absence of a cohesive incident command system during the Uvalde response. Cooper emphasizes the chaos that ensued when multiple agencies arrived without a unified command structure:

“They had the capabilities to start an incident command. They had a SWAT, but they didn't start to do it.” — Chance Cooper [56:15]

Brent criticizes the chiefs for not taking decisive action, leading to over 150 officers arriving on the scene without clear directives, exacerbating the confusion and inefficiency.

3. Over-Reliance on Outdated Communication Methods

The hosts identify outdated radio communication as a critical flaw in managing the incident. Cooper introduces Apollo, an app-based solution designed to enhance real-time coordination among first responders:

“Apollo is the best way to manage resources during these events because it's designed by first responders for first responders.” — Tyler [24:12]

Brent adds that Apollo provides a common operating picture, allowing officers to see each other's real-time locations and coordinate actions more effectively than traditional radio systems.

4. Critique of Police Training and Cultural Shifts

Tyler and Brent discuss the alarming shift in police culture from aggressive, proactive tactics to a more cautious, often passive approach. Brent vehemently criticizes the focus on minor procedural details over substantial tactical responses:

“By trying to be safe, by staying together, you've actually made it more dangerous.” — Brent Tucker [17:58]

Cooper echoes this sentiment, arguing that the emphasis on avoiding fratricide and adhering strictly to protocols has undermined the ability of officers to act decisively in life-threatening situations.

5. Comparisons to Other Incidents and the Nashville Response

The episode draws parallels between the Uvalde shooting and the Nashville incident, highlighting how different approaches can lead to vastly different outcomes. While Uvalde's response was hampered by hesitation and miscommunication, Nashville's effective use of Apollo and decisive action by key officers resulted in a quicker resolution with fewer casualties.

“This was destined to fail before this even started.” — Brent Tucker [09:18]

Cooper credits enhanced training and the adoption of new technologies like Apollo as pivotal factors that prevented similar failures in Nashville.

6. Personal Experiences and Insights from Chance Cooper

Chance Cooper shares his extensive background in law enforcement, emphasizing the importance of hard skills, tactical proficiency, and the right mindset:

“Work on your hard skills. Tactics and technology will help support your hard skills 100%.” — Chance Cooper [66:21]

He recounts his experiences on the Career Criminal Task Force and his role in developing training programs aimed at improving officer readiness and response efficiency.

7. Recommendations for Future Improvements

Brent, Tyler, and Cooper propose several recommendations to prevent future tragedies:

• Adopt Advanced Communication Tools: Transition from traditional radios to integrated platforms like Apollo for better coordination.

• Enhance Leadership Training: Develop robust incident command structures and empower officers to take decisive action without bureaucratic delays.

• Revamp Police Training Programs: Focus on hard skills and tactical aggression while minimizing emphasis on minor procedural nuances.

• Foster a Warrior Mentality: Encourage a culture that prioritizes proactive engagement and prioritizes saving lives over personal safety concerns.

“Protect and serve. I love that motto. And one, it's protect. The first thing my job is to do is protect you guys.” — Brent Tucker [90:38]

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a reiteration of the need for systemic changes within law enforcement. The hosts stress that while technological advancements like Apollo offer promising solutions, the foundational issues of training, leadership, and cultural mindset must be addressed to ensure effective and life-saving responses to active shooter situations.

“They put themselves at this point in time, they have now moved themselves to the top of that priority.” — Brent Tucker [12:30]

By dissecting the Uvalde incident in minute detail, The Antihero Podcast not only sheds light on what went wrong but also provides a roadmap for reforming police tactics and culture to better protect and serve communities in the future.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. Brent Tucker [00:00]:

   “How many kids were shot before you got there and are bleeding out and need medical attention now?”

2. Chance Cooper [56:15]:

   “They had the capabilities to start an incident command. They had a SWAT, but they didn't start to do it.”

3. Brent Tucker [17:58]:

   “By trying to be safe, by staying together, you've actually made it more dangerous.”

4. Tyler [24:12]:

   “Apollo is the best way to manage resources during these events because it's designed by first responders for first responders.”

5. Brent Tucker [09:18]:

   “This was destined to fail before this even started.”

6. Chance Cooper [66:21]:

   “Work on your hard skills. Tactics and technology will help support your hard skills 100%.”

7. Brent Tucker [90:38]:

   “Protect and serve. I love that motto. And one, it's protect. The first thing my job is to do is protect you guys.”

---

Key Takeaways

• Misidentification of Threats: Correctly identifying active shooter scenarios is crucial for timely and effective responses.

• Leadership and Command Structure: Strong incident command and decisive leadership can significantly influence the outcome of critical events.

• Technological Integration: Modern communication tools like Apollo can enhance coordination and resource management during emergencies.

• Training and Culture: Emphasizing hard skills and fostering a proactive, warrior mentality can improve law enforcement effectiveness.

• Continuous Improvement: Learning from past incidents and implementing systemic changes is essential to prevent future tragedies.

---

This episode serves as a sobering analysis of the failures in the Uvalde shooting response, offering valuable insights and actionable recommendations aimed at transforming law enforcement practices to better safeguard communities.

Transcript

[Brent Tucker]

And what really, really pisses me off, if I'm looking at this timeline and I hear that more shots are fired, I don't know if we'll ever know this. I don't care if there's no shots being fired. Like when you showed up. How many kids were shot before you got there and are bleeding out and need medical attention now?

[Tyler]

Hold on, we're not recording.

[Brent Tucker]

Want to buy a rifle?

[Tyler]

Do you want to buy a shirt.

[Brent Tucker]

To support military dance?

[Tyler]

People want to see their sausage get.

[Brent Tucker]

Made an appropriate level of inappropriateness. Something happen is my family tonight. The Delta Force isn't isn't coming to rescue my my family, my kids, like it is first responders that are that are going to save my my family.

[Tyler]

They want the culture to be down. They want people that not want to be cops. And the people that do want to be cops are now walking into the job scared to do the job.

[Brent Tucker]

I'm going to try to act like it didn't happen, although we, we all know it did.

[Tyler]

JV Team for life. The Anti Hero podcast has teamed up with the best Human Performance trt. There's a lot of things you can measure when taking trt. Fat loss, muscle mass, no depression, high libido. But there's things that you can't measure, which is being a better family man, being a leader at work, making more money, being more successful. These are all things that are achievable with trt.

[Brent Tucker]

Not only do they cover trt, they cover weight loss, ketamine and peptides.

[Tyler]

Human Performance TRT is telehealth based, which means the consultation you have with your doctor is done via webcam or via phone and your prescription is delivered right to your door. There's no need to go to the.

[Brent Tucker]

Pharmacy if you're already on TRT from an inferior company. Don't worry. If you have recent lab works from the past six months, you can upload it to HPTRT.com and they will waive the lab costs.

[Tyler]

Not only will they waive the initial lab costs, there's no lab costs at all. While you're a customer with Human Performance TRT. To go to HPTRT.com use promo code HERO and get 10% off not only your initial order, but every single month from here on out.

[Brent Tucker]

So don't wait any longer. Improve your quality of life with HPTRT.comJV team for life.

[Tyler]

Oh, he's getting the candid stuff.

[Brent Tucker]

Oh, the candid stuff.

[Chance Cooper]

Oh, that was candid.

[Brent Tucker]

It is now, my boogers.

[Chance Cooper]

When I pick my Nose.

[Brent Tucker]

That's candid. If that's what you normally do, then do it.

[Tyler]

Yeah, it's candid.

[Chance Cooper]

Yeah, this is me.

[Tyler]

I definitely won't zoom in on you.

[Chance Cooper]

Trust me, the Internet will do that.

[Brent Tucker]

Oh, gosh, yes, they will. Nothing gets by the Internet.

[Chance Cooper]

Nope. And it is there forever. Yeah, it is there forever.

[Brent Tucker]

Or, or, or as. As every now gets pointed out to me, Reddit do red.

[Tyler]

I still don't know what Reddit is.

[Chance Cooper]

It's like, it's like the underground. It's not the deep web, the dark web, but it's kind of like the entrance. It's like the marijuana, the gateway drug to the dark web is what Reddit is.

[Tyler]

Can you access the dark web from Reddit?

[Chance Cooper]

You know what the funny thing is, is the dark web to me is kind of like when we were kids and they said the black market, I thought that was like an actual place. It's not. That's what the dark web. I have no idea how to center.

[Brent Tucker]

This up to you.

[Chance Cooper]

It's like a million different things. Kind of like you chase the rabbit in the matrix of like, and then.

[Tyler]

Only bad people want to get web.

[Brent Tucker]

You know, it's like friends will show you things. Yeah. Like, you just like to give each other a hard time. Is classic guy stuff. I had a friend show me the other night this Reddit page that it seems like it's pretty much just dedicated to, to my downfall. There's a lot of people going like, I can't wait till this, like, to this guy's five seconds of fame is over. I can't wait till you have a.

[Tyler]

Reddit page dedicated to.

[Brent Tucker]

I don't, I don't want to say. It's the whole. It's. It's a clip. It's a clip where someone asked me very specific question about, like, the unit. I said, I'm not going to answer that. And I jokingly said, go to Patreon if you want me to answer that as a joke.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

And they took that clip and the comment section on that is so Brent Tucker. Haterfield. Haterfield. It's been.

[Tyler]

And I get all the hate you need.

[Brent Tucker]

Oh, oh, I got something. It's in Reddit. Oh, it's just go to Reddit, search Brent Tucker and you'll find all the hate you're looking for somebody.

[Tyler]

I got to defend you. I, I can't find the comic. I can't remember where it was. Somebody said to you it was on a clip on social media. I think you were talking to Iron sights. I think that was a clip. And they said, cool story, bro. Talk about some conventional guys. Like the. Like the stole you show stole from the show. You stole from the conventional guy. I was like, we cover conventional guys all the time. And I was like, he clearly doesn't know. I gotta find the clip or the.

[Chance Cooper]

One when you guys were doing, like, when the Tim Kennedy stuff was coming up and everybody's rebuttaling and they're like, you know, these, you know, these guys didn't actually serve or know anything about combat.

[Tyler]

Rob O'Neill said that about us.

[Chance Cooper]

I know. And it's like, oh, that's right. It was Rob O'Neal. Yeah, it was like, ooh, ooh. That's a.

[Brent Tucker]

That's kind of.

[Chance Cooper]

Let's see how It's a bold move, Cotton. Let's see how it pans out for him.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, it's not. It's not odd for. For Rob to be wrong, but he was then.

[Chance Cooper]

Poor guy can't keep his story straight ever.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, it's not what he's known for.

[Tyler]

All right, let's get in.

[Brent Tucker]

He's consistent. I'll give him that. He's consistent.

[Tyler]

You got. Was that you? Are you clipping Patreon? Join a Patreon. You clipped it for Patreon, right? Okay. All right, you guys ready?

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. Let's get to you.

[Chance Cooper]

You're looking freaking swole, dude.

[Tyler]

I am.

[Chance Cooper]

Yeah. I am me, dude. Look at them Boulder shoulders, man.

[Tyler]

Oh, nice.

[Brent Tucker]

No, I just. I just happened to wear this tank top today. I didn't know I was looking swollen.

[Chance Cooper]

I don't have repping, dude. This is.

[Tyler]

Oh, wow.

[Brent Tucker]

Today's. All right.

[Tyler]

Welcome back to the Anti Hero podcast. Part Delta force, part street cop. All truth. I'm Tyler, owner of Refractive Wolf Apparel. Use promo code Anti hero and get 15 off the best and outsider graphic tees, stickers, hats, flags, ranger panties, beanies, zip up hoodies. We got everything. So go to refractible pearl.com promo code anti hero and get 15% off.

[Brent Tucker]

And I'm Brent Tucker, wearer of Refracted Wolf Apparel and owner of first responder cigar company and first responder coffee company. Use promo code FRCC15. That's FRCC15 to get 15% off the world's best coffee and cigars. Also, don't forget, we do the Thursday night lives every Thursday night, 8pm Eastern time. It is the highlight of our week and also our Patreon. The Patreon has moved up to five dollar and ten dollar tiers. But the good news about that is we are offering so much more than we ever have, and we're really excited about rolling that out and presenting that to you guys.

[Tyler]

Yeah, it's exciting. You know, what we're. What we're able to now do and give. And, you know, there's the mix of the people on there that would just want to support us and the mix of the people there that want to engage with us on a better level. You can't rely on social media to get a hold of us. It's impossible. We don't see everything. So it's the best way to, you know, we have message chat rooms about guns. We have ones about fitness. We have ones about just a general chat about anything. Everybody gets to know each other. And Patreon allows you to come and just hang out with us, you know, come to the studio and hang out. So, yeah, definitely.

[Chance Cooper]

I like the ask questions to guests. That's a pretty cool feature that, you know, like, you guys have some pretty cool guests.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Chance Cooper]

And it's like, hey, ask questions.

[Tyler]

Chance, are you a Patreon member?

[Chance Cooper]

I am a Patreon member.

[Tyler]

See, look at that.

[Brent Tucker]

And hate to say it, but it's. But it's the truth. As. As the show grows, so does our bills. And Patreon is a huge, huge help to us to help cover those. So if you guys want to support us, that is the biggest way you can today. You guys been asking for this episode for a while, and we finally got it for you. We're gonna cover the Uvalde episode. The Uvalde incident, as well as the Nashville. We'll. We'll give the Stark differences. And we brought a guest on to talk to us about that. With us today, we have Chance Cooper. He was a Kansas City Metro Police officer. He was also a part of the Career Criminal Task Force, as well as a board member for the Counter Terrorist Response training. And now in the private sector, he works as the COO for Apollo, which you guys know about. Chance, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for giving us your time and researching this for us.

[Chance Cooper]

I would say it's a pleasure to be here, but given all the prep we've been doing, this is going to be a pretty heavy episode. So happy to be here hanging out with you guys today, but at the same time, the stuff we're going to be talking about is pretty heavy, so. And it's. Here's an interesting episode.

[Brent Tucker]

Here's the unique thing about everybody wants you to do something. Like, when it happens, the problem and it's fresh in everyone's mind. Well, the problem with. The problem with doing something fresh, you have the least amount of information, you know. And there's two things I think is going to be unique about this. One, the amount of information we now have to do the episode. Right. And two, it's also been so long. I think a lot of people forgot about it, to be honest with you. Or they definitely. They may not have forgot about Uvalde, but they forgot about the details.

[Tyler]

Yeah. And I was one of those people that I was on. I was a believer that there's no way 60 cops, 60 some cops were cowards.

[Chance Cooper]

There's no way over 150 were there.

[Tyler]

It was. After doing the research, it. I mean, you can define coward how you want. And I'm sure there's a spectrum of cowardice, but I was appalled by the amount of cowardice that went on there.

[Chance Cooper]

So I'll tell you this though. So as we're getting into it and I'm going to talk about that when it first came out, everybody is like, man, every there, like you're saying, is the blanketed thing. As we've come out now, I actually know that the. I can relate a lot more to the officers who are showing up later because there were federal agents that came from San Antonio that drove hot for over an hour, almost an hour to get there. And I related with. Because now we can actually watch a lot of their footage and their interactions and they're asking the questions of like, yes, they were thinking, right. The information that they were being giving initially on scene, they would respond. They were responding accordingly. And I think you have it where like once they started getting the tempo and realizing a little bit more heads up, they were going, this is wrong. We need two more.

[Tyler]

Once the warriors came in and started taking over the scene slowly is when they started realizing, like the information that we're getting is not the biggest thing was like it was coming out as a barricade, which is in law enforcement. They are pull her out barricaded person, an active shooter is the fine line. And depending on dramatic switch in response.

[Brent Tucker]

As there should be correct. I think this will maybe surprise some people. It's easy. It's easier, I would say, for, for you to. To say that, Tyler, about them because you're, you're in the career field. You know, we say it all the time, like vets have to hold other vets accountable, you know, so you're in their career field. And so I don't, I don't disagree with what you said. But at the same time, I. I do give a little bit more. I think this will surprise some people. I'm not saying what they did is right. This is this. And we'll come back to this at the end of it, but this has always been a little bit. My stance on it. Yes, they could have been proactive, but there's a lot of people out there, they're like, oh, if I was there, I'd have done this, I'd have done that. Would you?

[Chance Cooper]

Correct.

[Brent Tucker]

I don't know. If you'd asked all these guys before this happened, they'd have told you the same thing. Or if this happened in another city, they'd be talking crap on those police officers, saying that until you're there, faced with an armed gunman on the other side of that wall, you don't know who you are. Until that happens, I just take that.

[Chance Cooper]

Boy cops.

[Brent Tucker]

It's not me forgiving them, not me forgive. No, no. You're just a little bit more of like an understanding from a guy who got millions of dollars of training put into him. Know what it takes to really.

[Tyler]

But if you stepped in their shoes, if you stepped in the shoes of a law enforcement officer, I really feel like you're like, this is not the career for me. Because I thought the people I'd be working with were different caliber of men. And that's the reason why I will not be retiring in law enforcement. Because people like me, the culture's shifting.

[Chance Cooper]

It shifted.

[Tyler]

And 10, 15 years ago, somebody would have taken charge in that room. They would have risked getting fired. I don't give a fuck if the chief is mad at me. I'm going in just the same mindset as I'm chasing this car. This is the bad guy in this car. And that used to be a slap on the wrist. And now guys are terrified of being fired for everything.

[Brent Tucker]

But I'm also interested in coming back to this conversation after hearing everything you have to say and going, I don't need to do. I hold that belief still. So I'm, you know, I'm gonna learn a lot this episode.

[Chance Cooper]

So I'll give a little background. Cause what you're talking about of where my experience is. Cause I don't want to take all the episode up of like my war stories. Because a. Anybody who tells war stories, like you and I were talking about this last.

[Tyler]

Night, just telling the truth.

[Chance Cooper]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. You know, like. Or especially if they're unsolicited horror stories.

[Tyler]

Are usually books about it.

[Chance Cooper]

Right. And then they go charge them in a massive amount to get them to speaking engagements. But my experiences have, like, especially now that. So when you guys asked me to come on, I'm like, okay, I need to go dive back into this. And there was more information that came out since I researched this and it became even more prevalent of a lot of the experiences that I had. And now, now that we're here, I think it's going to be a really good topic of conversation. And the reason why I say that is because of this. I very quickly realized in my career that I was a true believer. I think lawn, like, I think law enforcement when I came in was the best career field to go into because you're doing everything for the people with the least amount of, like, the least amount of thanks. And I still hold it to this day, love every bit about my career that I had, however, in that I was exposed to some of the absolutely atrocious natures of some of the things that happened behind the scenes. And Uvalde was the theater. Like, I remember when I first became a cop, everybody was talking about Columbine. And then Ferguson happened. And I remember the shift in culture from how we were doing business to Ferguson especially being in Missouri. And everything started changing. And then Baltimore and then Breonna Taylor and then George. And everything has shifted and yet nothing has really been done except we got worse. We have stripped ourselves of what we were really supposed to be, which is public safety and protecting people. And I think you say it in the thing of like, nobody wants to see their sausage made.

[Brent Tucker]

Well, that's because of two reasons. Everything you just mentioned, they misidentified the problem and they misidentified the solution. So of course things got worse. It's like, it's just like being a doctor. If you misidentify the sickness and then you misidentify the cure, it gets worse. And that's what our society did.

[Chance Cooper]

It gets worse. So part of what I saw and like when I'm analyzing this is on the CTRT board, there was a bunch of us and we were in charge of. It was a grant funded program that we created of essentially like, hey, we see alert, we see all these other things and we think we could do better, you know, because those are kind of rubber stamped across the board of like checkbox training. We're going to talk about that. So we created our own and hey, this is really good. And we came back and said, okay, this is free training. All the chiefs of the metro, Kansas City, Metro has like 2.5 million people with I think over 30 agencies. And we're like, you can send your cops to train with us for free. This is certified through the state. We've done everything you need. This isn't just a, you know, Instagram company type of thing. This is a legit certified program. And, but we need two days because we need to dissect and then train them properly. And they said no, you can have eight hours. And we're like, okay, so how are, and what are we going to do in eight hours? And we did the best we can. But over the last several years we had, we trained over almost 2,000 officers just in that program. This isn't even all the other stuff I was a part of just in that program. 2,000 officers. And there was a uncanny. The, the, the bad things that were shown were unanimous across the board. It didn't matter what agency it was. In fact, the worst, biggest pet peeve I have think you talk about this now that I've gone and trained with you a little bit is the blue on blue. The fracture side and the muzzle awareness is just. Because we just. There's no. And that stuff that should be, there should be no excuse for that.

[Brent Tucker]

They really hyper focus on a lot of the small things that are all things that should be. You should be aware of and concerned about, but at the same time complete disregard for massive problems and their tactics and super worried about, about small things. And I think it's. And, and it really, it's as always, it's, it's kind of sounds harsh, but it's kind of fear based tactics.

[Tyler]

Are you saying like, are you saying like guys, like for instance guys are worried about clearing their corner when you ask where's your other element at? And they're like, we don't know like something like big picture like that.

[Brent Tucker]

Well, I would say like you know, bigger picture. This will get a little nerdy for, for some people but they're super worried about. This is off the top of my head. They're so worried about fratricide, you know, which is, you know, you know, police officer shooting another police officer that they won't use good tactics. So that's a, this isn't just me beating up on limited penetration. There's like limited penetration is, is a, is a tactic. Let's just use it for a second. So they want to keep all their guys close to the breach because they don't want them to spread out, get away from each other or have the chance of, of pointing a rifle at each other when at the end of the day, the bigger problem is you've, by trying to be safer, you've created a more dangerous environment. Because now all four officers are close to the breach. Easier shots to take by the enemy. You have taken less of the room. So there's a lot more dead spots in the room for someone to be at that you haven't covered because you haven't spread out and really control that room. So by trying to be safe, by staying together, you've actually made it more dangerous. And that's, you know, I just see that a lot of them trying to implement rules for caution that actually ends up being more dangerous.

[Tyler]

Is that a law enforcement thing? Because I know in the military they teach you it's from the get go, safety, safety, safety.

[Brent Tucker]

Safe. Well, or. Well, military and safety is there too. But it really is a little bit more of a law enforcement thing. Like it really is. But, but the military has it as well. It's just more prevalent in law enforcement.

[Chance Cooper]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

Because I remember when you know just basic drills, you know, the more you're spread out, the better for ambushes, for grenades.

[Brent Tucker]

Sure, right, sure, sure.

[Chance Cooper]

I know that the like. And the reason why this is going to go into a lot of this because like my premise from the very beginning, when I started and all the after action stuff with Uvalde and now it's solidified even more, is that this was destined to be this. They were destined to fail before this even started. They were so ill equipped, ill prepared in every way, shape or form that this was just inevitable. And I saw this with, you know, something like this with. I came on my first, the first team I was on and for the first year and a half I had no idea what we were doing because There was no SOPs. There was no real way of like, hey, this is how we're doing it. Because we'd show up for training and everybody would BS for 30, 45 an hour. We're already, you know, a seventh way into the training day. And then they're like, hey, this is how we're clearing a room today. And I'm like, well, wait a minute, this is different than how you taught us last time. Well, hey, new guy, don't ask questions.

[Tyler]

You talk about a tactical team.

[Chance Cooper]

Yeah, and a tactical team. But at this time, see, this is far back enough where you had SWAT the way SWAT did it and the way patrol did it.

[Tyler]

Yep.

[Chance Cooper]

And then you're like, wait. And so we were like, hang on now we should probably be doing the Same thing.

[Tyler]

So they modify it for or modify it.

[Chance Cooper]

But the culture was, hey, dude, shut up, don't ask questions. And I'm like, but you're telling me to do something different. And you're asking me to put my life on the line for this guy next to me. And I'm not understanding what you're asking me to do because it's contrary. And so there wasn't. So this is going to. Your point is there was no. The culture behind it was always regurgitated tactics or something that they heard a long time ago and they're putting their spin on it. And it's not a proven method. It's not a proven method for effectiveness.

[Brent Tucker]

Here's the double edged sword of that. I land more on the side, not completely more on the side of, hey, new guy, shut up. I did.

[Chance Cooper]

Agreed, agreed.

[Brent Tucker]

However, you can only have that stance as if everything you explained to the new guy is completely and fully explained. And your tactics have to be locked in, correct and correct to not give a new guy an opportunity to be like, hey, but that's not what you taught me yesterday. Because the new guy kind of should have a question at that point.

[Tyler]

You want to get shunned.

[Brent Tucker]

So you have to be locked in a professional if you want to have that opinion.

[Tyler]

Try challenging a team's tactics that the SOPs that took months to put in all the red tape that they have to go through all the testing they have to do, everybody that has to get approved of it and then they finally get it on the books, that's what we're going to do. And somebody goes, why are we doing that? That's dumb. Oh man.

[Chance Cooper]

Well, let's be clear for the Internet, I was not coming in saying, well, this is dumb. I was legit going, hey, I'm not understanding this because this how you explained it the last time. This seems different. And it wasn't a hey, man. Yeah, that's a good question. Let's explain it later. Or similar sidebar. It was, hey, shut up, new guy. And it was okay, as I was.

[Tyler]

I'm just gonna guess as I was.

[Chance Cooper]

All right, roger that. Tally ho, let's go. So JV team for life.

[Tyler]

Ghostbed sleep so good it's scary. Go to ghostbed.comantihero and get 50% off. That's 5, 0% off your order. Or go to check out and use Anti Hero as a promo code. 50% off. 60,000 plus 5 star rating and reviews. All handcrafted here in America and Canada, I think mostly Florida to be honest with you. So go to ghostbed.com support them. They're huge supporters of us. They're awesome. They treat us really good. So if you need any bedding, if you don't even need a bed, if you just need bedding, cool. They have the patented, they have the patented cooling technology.

[Brent Tucker]

Nailed it. Nailed it.

[Chance Cooper]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

Nailed it. Goodsbed.com/forward/android50off Tyler, how many critical incidents do.

[Brent Tucker]

You think we've covered so far in this podcast, man?

[Tyler]

At least five, six.

[Brent Tucker]

And, and they're not going to stop. You know, there's you, you cannot stop them all. So they're going to happen. And you really have, you know, two charters at that. Obviously one is to stop them from happening, but since you can't stop them all from happening, you owe it to the people that you protect and depend on you to react to those situations in the most effective and efficient manner. And right now, really, whether, you know, you're a fire department, ems, law enforcement, you're stuck with essentially radios.

[Tyler]

And Apollo is the best way to manage resources during these events because it's designed by first responders for first responders.

[Brent Tucker]

It gives first responders a common operating picture which allows them to see where everybody is in real time, overlaid onto a map to see where they are. You can drop pinpoints and let them know where they need to go. And without constant talking on the radio, everybody knows where the incident is, where it's happening and where they need to be.

[Tyler]

And Apollo is an app based application. This is just download and go.

[Brent Tucker]

It's an app and so it works with androids, it works with iPhones.

[Tyler]

Apollo makes sure on the back end everything works and you can just plug and go. They handle all the licensing, all the encryption compliance, all the security. It's all handled by Apollo. It's crucial to know where everyone is and what they are doing in order to effectively control chaos in one of these either natural disasters or, or shootings or anything like that.

[Brent Tucker]

So if you want to learn more about Apollo, scan the QR code and ensure your department is ready to react to any crisis in its most effective and efficient manner possible.

[Chance Cooper]

JV Team for life Anyway, all right.

[Brent Tucker]

So well, let's get into the, let's get into the, the backstory because I've forgotten a lot of the. When we talked about this before the episode, it's like, oh, that's right, that's right.

[Tyler]

Like, where was Uvalde? Is it because so many jurisdictions showed up that it's got to be a point where Southwest.

[Chance Cooper]

I think it's more west and south than south of San Antonio. And it is a little town out in the middle of, if you know, west Texas. It's. It's pretty. It's pretty remote.

[Brent Tucker]

The city of West.

[Chance Cooper]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. As far as that, man. Any more than that, I can't tell you. Like, pop.

[Tyler]

Is it near the border?

[Chance Cooper]

Oh, it's a border town. I know that. Like, that's why Bortak and everything is there, because it's. I mean, it's fairly close.

[Tyler]

I didn't know that.

[Chance Cooper]

It's really close to the border within. I mean, Brick, dude, they'll sit there and drive hot for 45 minutes, and you're at the border. Okay. So, I mean, it's definitely a border town. The dynamics of, like, the scene definitely is like a west Texas. West Texas desert.

[Tyler]

I say that because most of the cops that were interviewed, most of the cops that I saw involved were Hispanic.

[Chance Cooper]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So May of 2022 is when Guy named Ramos, kind of shunned by society, stuff like that he was interacting with. The stuff that has now come out is that he was spiraling fast. Like, we don't know the. You know, because he was dead. We don't know everything that led up to it. But he knew that he was coming into his own of like, this is something he was dreaming about or wanting to do. He wanted to commit something like this. He bought. When he turned 18, he bought a rifle. And then the morning of the shooting, he actually sent. He was communicating with some teenager, I believe. I think it was a female in Germany named Cece or I forget. But he sent her a message saying he took a picture of his rifle and said, hey, I'm about to go. No, he. He killed his grandmother. He thought he killed his grandmother and then said, hey, I'm gonna go shoot up a school. So, like, he is telling somebody in Germany this right now and then got in the truck and started driving. I don't know why he crashed out, but ended up crashing out near the school.

[Tyler]

Was not engaged with police at this time. No, no, that was.

[Chance Cooper]

No. Well, here's the crazy part. You know, the grandmother lived. She's alive. The grant. He shot the grandmother in the head and she lived. Wow.

[Tyler]

Hardcore grandma.

[Chance Cooper]

Because she went over and apparently, like, she went across the street and called the police or something like that. That was weird because I'm like, doesn't she have a cell phone? Like, this is 2022.

[Tyler]

Like, maybe she doesn't believe.

[Chance Cooper]

When I hear going across the street.

[Brent Tucker]

Wow.

[Chance Cooper]

I picture like going and picking up the landline phone and stuff like that. But anyway, she called the police. I don't know how that transpired because. Or what happened from there. He crashed his truck. And at a funeral home, people saw that and called 911 saying, hey, there was just an accident. And they went over to go help. Suspect exited and started shooting at the people at the funeral home. So immediately we have shots fired. This is on 911 that they know that this accident. And I'm directing this at you because you can paint this picture of how dispatch is receiving this. Dispatch is hearing the shots come out on the 911 call. So they know that there's. This accident is associated with shooting. No, not just a firearm. An act of shots being fired.

[Tyler]

Dispatch could hear the shots.

[Chance Cooper]

Yeah. And they're saying, oh, my gosh. You can hear them saying, oh, my gosh, he's shooting at us. He's shooting at us. So the officers responding are associating this car crash with not an active shooter in the sense of a school, but in the sense that there are active shots going on.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Chance Cooper]

While they're heading there, he is leaving and starts making his way to the school. An officer actually passes him, sees what he thinks is a teacher. Here's the thing is it's. I didn't. I didn't.

[Tyler]

Well, here's the thing. Who's responding and what radio traffic are they having? Because if they're hearing it third party, they can't hear the shots. If the dispatcher is not saying there are shots, I hear them, guys, I can hear the shots. As a dispatcher, I can verify. But if I saw where one cop said, oh, I was looking for a car crash this whole time. So he didn't get the message or he wasn't paying attention, went to.

[Chance Cooper]

This is where the disconnect and we're talking is about managing resources and information. And the dispatchers knew it, but they may not have been able to radio it out. I'm going to go on a hunch, Tyler, and say it was usually because there's a lot of radio traffic and they were sitting there going, beep, beep, beep. Like they're trying to put it out. But they made not have been able to. I don't know. I don't know. But I do know that they knew that this. This was associated with an active shooter. Okay. Then at 11:28, he crashes his truck. 11:30, the first 911 calls are placed. A teacher who saw Ramos, a Teacher who saw Ramos saw that and called and called the, called the 911 saying hey, there's a guy shooting at this car accident runs back into the school. Okay. 11:31 outside the school, Ramos initiates gunfire and actually starts shooting at the school. So he's no longer just shooting at the people, he's now actively engaging at the school. Okay. Don't know if anybody was hitting that but they do know that he was actually spraying bullets at the school. We don't know if it was a directed target or anything like that. Like at 11:33 he enters the school through the west entrance.

[Tyler]

Unlocked door.

[Chance Cooper]

Unlocked door.

[Tyler]

There you go.

[Brent Tucker]

That was solved a lot of problems that was supposed to be locked.

[Chance Cooper]

Yes. Safety protocols with all schools are going to be that they generate outside traffic, has to go through a central exit. A central.

[Tyler]

That's always been universal.

[Brent Tucker]

Right. Those, those protocols have been in place for a while now while. Which is just to make sure everyone understands this because it's super important.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

You go to your kids school, there's only, generally speaking there's only one way you're getting in that school, that's the front office. And most of those you have to be buzzed into to even get into the front office.

[Chance Cooper]

Correct.

[Brent Tucker]

So which, which means most schools these days are completely locked down and so they shouldn't be able to get in there. And, and a lot of schools place.

[Tyler]

This school resource officer right there.

[Brent Tucker]

That's right.

[Tyler]

That are office right there.

[Brent Tucker]

That's right. And with the work I've done with you know, a couple, you know, non profits and you know, school shootings, active after shooter in schools. You find out the number one perpetrator of that rule of unlocking doors, kicking, keeping doors open with a rock, wedging them open. Are school teachers.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

School teachers do it to get to their cars quicker to go make phone calls. Yeah. Maybe smoke a cigarette back in the 90s. But yeah. Oddly enough it's school teachers not saying that they're not, they're not the 100 problem. But is that, and that's the same, that's the same information you have as well.

[Chance Cooper]

100. Absolutely.

[Brent Tucker]

That's a problem.

[Chance Cooper]

That's a very problem.

[Brent Tucker]

That was a problem.

[Tyler]

Complacency.

[Chance Cooper]

So this is my. When I'm like strike one goes to the school district. Not the, not the response.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay. That's fair enough.

[Chance Cooper]

Yeah. For. Because it was propped. Here's what I didn't understand and maybe I can look into it more but it's not relevant revelant right now. The. The school teacher. The. The door was propped open with a rock for whatever reason. Were they running out to their car or something? I don't know. But the whole point is that some reports were that they went in and closed the door. Others are saying that it wasn't. So I don't know the whole thing about that, but the whole point was, it doesn't matter. What matters is, is that it was left unsecure. He went through a door that was supposed to be secure.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[Chance Cooper]

Okay.

[Brent Tucker]

That's a huge problem.

[Chance Cooper]

Massive problem. All right. At 11:35. So we are now at 2. 2 minutes. Oh, sorry. Hang on. There is already. Let me see. Staff Sergeant Canales, or Canales, I believe, is first on scene. Was first on scene and went through the building because at 11:35, three UPD officers with two rifles. Yes, two rifles enter the school district through the west entrance door. So the same door that the guy went. Ramos went into. They're followed eight seconds later by three others. So now you have a total of five police officers, at least two rifles.

[Tyler]

And they initially go to. They go. And then they fall back. And then. Right.

[Chance Cooper]

They. They went in and they were kind of doing their preliminary, like, because the.

[Tyler]

Rooms are 112, 111, and 112 are the target rooms. They can't figure out he's in one of the two.

[Chance Cooper]

No, they don't know that yet. They come in, and I believe what they see is all the shell casings, because they're shell casings in the hallway. And so they realize. So what happens? If you guys remember the footage, there's kind of that bubble view that we're going to look at, where you see all the ridiculousness of them laying prone on the floor and all the shields and everybody. And all the tacktard stuff. If you look down. If you look down the hall, that's where he went. And I believe they didn't know which way they go. And they look and saw that there were shell casings outside down here in the hallway. So they start pushing that way. Meanwhile, you have other. I believe the police chief. The police chief entered from the other side. So essentially, you are. They're converging on room 111 and 112. Yes. Some from the bubble and some from the other side. Yep. And that's. And then that's when they encountered and realized that, hey, he's right here. In these. In these. So within five seconds of the first three, the chief of police, Ernando, along with others, that's when they come in. So they. So they're coming in and then at 11:37, Ramos starts blasting through the door.

[Tyler]

Yep.

[Chance Cooper]

And they're hit with shrapnel of all the stuff.

[Tyler]

And they all just fall back and never return.

[Chance Cooper]

They never retake.

[Tyler]

They lost the high ground to me again. This is where we're gonna start getting critical of the type of men that are there. You've got an act. You're in an active shooter situation. You're moving. Based off the visual of shell casings on the ground. That's a clue. We're moving, we're pushing.

[Chance Cooper]

Sure.

[Tyler]

We start taking gunfire and everybody falls back. Not essentially like they're hit. They. They think they're hit.

[Chance Cooper]

Sure.

[Tyler]

They're still moving and they fall back. And to me, you're engaged in a combat scenario right there. It's someone's. We're gonna end it right now. That should have.

[Chance Cooper]

So there's something that's taught to us called the priority of life. You've heard this a lot. I don't know if you guys. I know don't have to do this in the military or engage with this. Right? Or do you guys have something?

[Brent Tucker]

Usually we talk to SWAT teams. We have almost the same exact things. We just call them different terminologies. But if you explain it to me, I'm. I'm pretty sure right now, without listening to it, that we have something similar to it.

[Chance Cooper]

Yeah. So priority of life for all the listeners are oops, I touched the Green Beret. How dare you. Sorry about that.

[Brent Tucker]

How dare you.

[Tyler]

Well, you, You. You paid homage to the portrait outside last night. So you can do it.

[Chance Cooper]

That's a funny story for afterwards. Okay. So the priority of life. So everybody understands. And this is not just an active shooter. This is everyday SOP taught to you in the academy goes hostages. I call them innocents because it gets convoluted who you're. Well, hang on. Well, I don't say civilians. And this is why everybody has their own thing. Wherever you're going, I. You have hostages, children. And then we were kind of doing the unknown. The reason why is because we weren't sure who you were.

[Tyler]

I've never heard children being in the Matrix before.

[Chance Cooper]

This is why we dealt with so many times where, like if you were our bad guy, but we don't know who you are because we. We don't know who you are in our daily.

[Tyler]

Oh, it was specific to you.

[Chance Cooper]

Right. So we're treating you both, even though you're not an active threat to us right now. We Treat both of you as an unknown because we have to maintain that level of awareness that you could be. Have nefarious intent. Right?

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[Chance Cooper]

But at the same time we have to give you the leeway of you could just be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Chance Cooper]

So for us it went, it went hostages, children and then unknowns. But I'm going to tell you this, you and I, as, as cops were real close with the unknowns so we could have that reaction time. We wanted to decrease that reaction time. And then it goes bad. Guys, what they're doing right now is they are putting themselves at the very top of that priority of life.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Chance Cooper]

Okay. Because later on they start saying, well, we didn't know if there were children in that classroom. And it's like at this point in time you have to 100% assume that, that he has. Assume a chew game. We're going to talk about that a lot. Remember the assumption. I think I was talking about you before. You have to assume that there are children in there and you're going to go save them. Or guess what, if I. Here's the thing, if I die and allows you to do that, I've signed up for that, I've prepared for that with everything leading up to that moment, then so be it. Carry my flag, give me the 21 gun salute and make sure that my wife and kids are taken care of. Right. And I know it sounds crazy, but at the same time, that's what we do. That's what our culture should be. They put themselves at this point in time, they have now moved themselves to the top of that priority. And this is why my case in point, that's at 11:37am okay? At 11:40, Chief Coronado does not have a radio. So he calls the landline and says, quote, we have him in the room. He got an AR15, he has shot a lot. We don't have firepower right now. It's all pistols. I don't have a radio. I need you to bring a radio for me and give me my radio for me. I need to get one rifle. I'm trying to set it up and then continuing on. I need this building surrounded with as many AR15s as possible. Send SWAT to set up on the south side of the building. This is what his traffic is and you can actually. He's very much out of breath and you can tell he is not in control and yet he is seeing command in every way, shape or form. So he has now put himself because he doesn't know how to keep. He now starts the downfall of the whole situation because he's the leader and he's.

[Brent Tucker]

And he's all righty wrong, because three minutes prior to him making that phone call, he does have two rifles.

[Chance Cooper]

Correct.

[Brent Tucker]

So he doesn't even know what the resources he has as a leader. He should have. He should have known how many people are there under his control and what they have. And he doesn't know.

[Tyler]

Well, and we were talking about before, you know, he's the school. So this is. He's the chief of police for the school district. Right. That's how Texas does it. It's not how Florida does it. But typically, just like anything, we don't put our savages in schools. We put SROs in schools. And we've joked we're joking, but we have seen where some of the school resource officers are softer cops.

[Chance Cooper]

And so it's a retirement gig.

[Tyler]

Yes.

[Chance Cooper]

They want the kids for TikTok and all of that. They want the friendly police officer that.

[Tyler]

Or somebody maybe doesn't want to live the warrior lifestyle. It wants to become an sro. And I feel like you have that same. That same mindset when you're like, the chief of police for the school district cops is not going to be a guy where they're like, we need a guy with 20 years squad experience. We need a guy that's had command and control, you know, experience. They put that type of guy and that type of position.

[Brent Tucker]

And that's. Yes, that's a stereotype. But my pushback, that always is when someone's like, oh, that's a stereotype. Where do you think stereotypes come from? Stereotypes are rooted in truth. Right? We're not saying it's 100% true, but it's a stereotype. There's a reason it's a stereotype.

[Chance Cooper]

And if you are voluntarily going to there to do an S to become an sro, the whole reason you should be doing that is knowing that I am the first line of defense. Absolutely I am. If I am putting in this transfer, Dear chief, please send me to such and such school because of A and B. Your motivation should be because I want to be the first line of defense. And I will have full ownership of the safety and security of that school in every way, shape or form.

[Tyler]

And priority number two should be, I am the first. I'm disseminating the information to all responding units. I know the school. I know what's going on. I'm the liaison between all the cops responding and this school.

[Chance Cooper]

What happened two months Prior to this.

[Brent Tucker]

Well, I love that you put that as number two. That's number two. And a lot of people even get that wrong. Like, they're like, well, I might do. I might lay down my life for these kids. But, you know, who can. Who can disseminate all this information if. If. If I'm dead. And that's just not the right mindset to have. Because if you're. If you're waiting to be the disseminator of information, I don't know if you're more of a stud. You wouldn't have to disseminate information because you. You could have nipped this in the bud early if you were aggressive.

[Chance Cooper]

Well, thank you, Brent Tucker, for bringing that. Can I implement something?

[Brent Tucker]

Sure.

[Chance Cooper]

Okay.

[Brent Tucker]

I think.

[Chance Cooper]

I think. I know it is.

[Tyler]

Not all comments are subject to you.

[Chance Cooper]

So it's funny you say that, Brent, because I got, you know, I was kind of the new guy on the task force, right? And when they started kind of giving me my leash of, like, going out and I'm running my own events, when we were doing something, it was a pretty big event. It was a pretty big deal, like going after some of the dudes we were. We had to pinch ourselves sometimes. Cause we'd have locals come out with us, and we'd be doing something like, dude, this was the greatest thing ever. And I'm like, bro, this is Tuesday morning. I got three more lined up. Like, that was what we were doing, right? But in that. I noticed that. I noticed that, man, we are playing catch up a lot when it goes south. Because how we had to manage this and the reason why all this matters, we were dealing with micro crisis management, meaning our normal calls for service essentially is a good place to rehearse a lot of this. And what I found became super effective. I got a lot of pushback for at first, which was if I knew that it met a certain threshold, if I knew what we were doing, this mission or whatever we were going to do. I started prepping the SWAT team. I had a fricking army, but we were not swat. I also knew that we didn't have other capabilities if we were doing something. So I started prepping things knowing that instead of going right now to do this, give me 45 minutes, and my team. I tell my team, and I'd go out and start prepping that. So guess what? If I made that call, I need you now. They already had that information prior to them responding. So they already were essentially spun up enough that when they got on scene with us, they were already kind of in the know, which gave a lot more efficient way of transferring. So put it this way. When Snootac or one of the KCPD tax squads would show up for us, we already knew tactical. When they showed up, we had a face to face. I'm like, do you have all the information? We're good. I can then put out. You have tactical command. So everybody now knows we are not in charge. He is in charge now. And it was seamless. There were hiccups. I mean, that's a little overgeneralization. But to your point, I noticed that. So the whole thing of passing information needs to happen. There needs to be something prior to. Because otherwise we spend the entire time playing catch up to problems that we're creating and we're not even able to address the problems in front of us.

[Brent Tucker]

And here's.

[Chance Cooper]

Does that make sense, Tyler? Do you see that a lot? Yeah.

[Tyler]

What, what you do is you're unofficially telling everybody, get ready. So when the page goes out. Yeah, they're already on their cars.

[Chance Cooper]

Because we do. We're really efficient, I guess, at being direct response, but not handling.

[Tyler]

I know. It's freaking crazy is the amount of red tape it takes to call out for some. A SWAT team. It's. You're making a statement at that point. We are officially calling the SWAT team. And no one wants to do that too soon.

[Chance Cooper]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

So what you do is you. You have some of the boys on scene, they're saying, hey, it's. We're coming. Like, just get ready.

[Chance Cooper]

That's what we did. Yeah. Essentially, like, instead of like, if you're the commander and be like, hey, can you send me one or two dudes? And they would send like a plane car, and they'd already be there. So that way when you show up, it's kind of seamless. It's how we get past that red tape.

[Brent Tucker]

Here's again, one of the biggest problems from an outside looking in. The chief is already basically asking for a SWAT team. How long does it take a SWAT team to assemble, get ready and be there?

[Chance Cooper]

Look to his right. They were there.

[Tyler]

SWAT was there.

[Chance Cooper]

The SWAT commander was in the hallway with him.

[Brent Tucker]

My, My point is you can't wait for the SWAT team.

[Chance Cooper]

Correct.

[Brent Tucker]

You're inside of a school with an active shooter, with kids, the most precious part of, of of our population dying potentially every second. It's. It'd be nice to have the SWAT team there. You cannot wait a second for that SWAT team to show up. You have to go with the Guys, you have.

[Chance Cooper]

Which is what the we learned with Columbine. I've been taught that, Brent, since my day one academy. One of we no longer wait for the SWAT team on a Columbine. Would you agree? Since day one, we no longer wait.

[Tyler]

Crazy.

[Chance Cooper]

Which shows his mindset that he wasn't ready for this.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[Tyler]

Sometimes I've been seeing training where people have been sending to me where they're like, now they're starting to say, well, if you know you got another guy coming, it's better to wait for a two man. For a one man response. And I'm like, here's what I'll say. You're shitting on the whole concept.

[Chance Cooper]

No, no, no. And this is why it's. It's funny you say that. And this is why. Because we actually started pushing that as well. And this is why. Then you'll see this with Nashville. If you have active stimulus, go, go. But if you're showing up to something and you're not having really much of anything, it's so big and complicated, you could be overshadowing and expending your energy without almost like taking that tactical pause to like, slowly go.

[Tyler]

Does that make sense when you say stimulus for people that you mean something that can. A clue where you can go.

[Chance Cooper]

Right, right. So here's the thing. They were engaged in shots almost immediately upon entering the hallway. So that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about if you show up to a school and you're the 15th person and you're coming on the south side of a major campus, if you just start running, you might be missing something. Just hang on. Just like the cop who drove real fast to that accident. He passed the shooter because he's so hyper focused on this, he missed the shooter. Now, it's a hypothetical. So what. What we were. What we're teaching, or I don't say we as in like entire United States, please understand that. I'm just saying. An RAO is that if you are one of the last people. It's not you're waiting for somebody. It is if you are ten steps behind me. We're gonna make sure we're going in together, which is what you're gonna see in Uvalde. He does that. And as they do it, they're clearing. And then as soon as they have stimulus, they are sprinting to it. And they are now bypassing and modifying how they're doing it. Does that make sense?

[Brent Tucker]

Okay, let's. Let's get back on track.

[Chance Cooper]

Yep.

[Brent Tucker]

11:40, Chief makes a bad call. He does, just makes a bad call.

[Chance Cooper]

11:41, along with the 911 dispatcher, a UPD officer says, we believe that he is barricaded. And this is really key because barricaded is a buzzword.

[Tyler]

Set the tone.

[Chance Cooper]

It's a buzzword. One of the officers says, we believe that he is barricaded in one of the offices. They're still shooting. When asked if the room door is locked, the UPD officer says, I'm not sure, but we have a halligan to break it. Okay. 11:42, a teacher reportedly text somebody to inform them there's an active shoot on campus and the school, school district officially goes into lockdown. Okay, so at 11:43, are officially locked down. 11:44, officers request more resources, equipment, body armor negotiators and evacuation of the other students begin. And this is important because they are now officially treating this as a barricade. Even though they just engaged the shooter. They were just engaged with a shooter not a few minutes prior to this and have no idea of the what is happening on the inside of that. Okay. They have no knowledge if there are kids inside that classroom or not.

[Tyler]

The word barricade was stated over the radio probably 15 or 20 times and.

[Chance Cooper]

It was mentioned in numerous body cam footage of like face to faces of people are showing up like, hey, what do you have?

[Tyler]

Every single person showing up. They don't even have a chance anymore. It's a barricade.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay, well half, that's half the problem. The other half is they, they called it an office. An office seems like a place where almost no one could be, or maybe one person is. An office is drastically different than a cool classroom where kids are. But wrong on both accounts.

[Chance Cooper]

On both, on both accounts. All right, officers request more resources. We talked about that at 11:52. 11:52, the first ballistic shield is brought into the school. Second, third, fourth and second, third and fourth shield are brought and this is important. So within 10 minutes you now have four ballistic shields inside. So they have rifles, they have a SWAT commander, they have shields and they are putting this and now treating this as a barricade because they were shot at from inside of a classroom two or three minutes after a shooter went inside.

[Tyler]

JV team for life. And of course we got to give a shout out to our boys in 09 holsters. Custom built ruggedized duty gear made in the USA for cops by cops, a Leo and veteran owned small business. They do an upgraded solutions for duty gear including cases for portable radios, body cameras, tourniquets and pretty much everything you need to carry on duty. So go to 09holsters.com and use promo code antihero10zulu9. That's antihero10z9. And get yourself 10% off your order.

[Chance Cooper]

Revenge is an act of passion. Vengeance is an act of justice. Injuries are revenged. Crimes are avenged. Almost a century ago, big pharmaceutical companies re engineered medical school curriculum and faculty with one goal. Putting profit before progress. Anyone pushing back against the medical matrix they carefully craft was threatened, silenced, censored, financially ruined, or worse. They are the problem. We are the solution. You are clear to engage with weapons.

[Brent Tucker]

You are clear to engage with weapons.

[Tyler]

Are you tired of using your standard issue flashlight? I know you're still using it because I was still using mine. But I have good news. We've teamed up with Cloud defensive, the best in the game when it comes to weapons mounted and handheld lights. Go to cloud defensive.com, put in promo code antihero15 and get 15% off your entire order. Cloud Defensive, pushing the boundaries and illumination JV team for life. So can you play the video of. There was a. An officer on scene whose wife was texting him saying he is shooting. I am shot.

[Chance Cooper]

And before this, there's a lull. There starts to be a lull. And they talk about this where they're like, well, there was no yelling, screaming. I thought there would have been more. I thought it was a barricade because there's no sound. They even talk about how they can hear themselves breathing. I think that's because they were probably about 30 pounds overweight.

[Tyler]

Yeah, most of them.

[Chance Cooper]

But the whole point is that they keep on saying how creepy it is that they don't know where or how kind of cryptic everything is.

[Brent Tucker]

Right. I don't think that's creepy at all. I think kids in a classroom with an armed gunman are gonna be quiet as a chur schoolers.

[Chance Cooper]

Schools are taught when you lock down, you barricade, you go to another spot and you don't say it. So this children and the children and the students are following their training and protocol of sit there and don't say anything and wait for the police. And the police are now saying, oh, because they're doing that, we don't know. So we're now not. We're violating what we know is our policy for active shooter protocol.

[Brent Tucker]

Fifteen minutes later, the officer Ruben Ruiz gets a call from his wife, Eva Morelos.

[Chance Cooper]

Ruben Ruiz. Ruben.

[Brent Tucker]

Ruben.

[Chance Cooper]

She says she's shot. Johnny.

[Brent Tucker]

This is about both girls.

[Chance Cooper]

He wanted to get in There we're trying to hold him back, you know, he's like, hey, Eva's in there. She's shot. She's shot. Like, we need to get in there. These kids and we know we need to get in there, but we don't have the right equipment. We're waiting. We got a negotiator and we're waiting for more shields. You know, I didn't even bother throwing my rifle plates at all. Like I said, we didn't have any shields. No. No flashbangs, no nothing that we could have used to cater distraction to not only like, not sound selfish, but make sure we go home at the end of the day, but at least more of these kids can go home at the end of the day, you know, Understand this is a job we signed up for. Yeah, we put our life on the line, but none of us had never been in this type of situation. None of us ever thought any of this situation would ever happen.

[Tyler]

That's the problem right there.

[Brent Tucker]

That's the problem. None of us ever thought we'd ever be in this situation. And he's absolutely wrong by saying, I don't want to sound selfish, but we want to go home at the end of the day. No, that's selfish.

[Tyler]

I first. This whole clip blows my mind. The. The first thing is the guy getting the phone call or a text from his wife saying, I'm shot. At that point, you're not stopping me. I could give a shit. But there wasn't even the personal drive that your family, your wife is in there shot and you. The mind that's going on right now is. Is phenomenal. Like, all of these guys are like, we can't go.

[Brent Tucker]

He got pulled back pretty easily, didn't he? Oh, I. I hate. It was like four fingers.

[Tyler]

It was like a suggestion almost, right?

[Brent Tucker]

And he's like, yeah, you're right. I'm back. That's crazy to me. But you guys tell me why they couldn't just open the door without shields and. And pie the opening.

[Chance Cooper]

Let's. Can I. Can we talk real quick about it? Because that'll actually come to like, we could pocket that to more or less when Portax shows up. And they actually. So the other thing about this is what do they now have? Remember what their excuse was is they had no idea it was a barricade.

[Tyler]

They have the equipment they need now.

[Chance Cooper]

And they have the intel that there are people inside. Okay, so now you have people that there is now people inside. Because remember, if you. When you watch all this, they keep on saying, well, we didn't know if there's anybody.

[Tyler]

We thought he was. At this point in your timeline, have the kids started calling yet?

[Chance Cooper]

They're. They're gonna start soon. They will start soon. But I don't know where this lines up with where we're at.

[Tyler]

They said that they were still. That video we just watched, that they were waiting on equipment that was right before the shields got there.

[Chance Cooper]

So now they have intel that there are people above them. You understand, like they are now. There is confirmed that there are people inside that room, and the priority of life is above them. Okay. At 1203. So here's. Here's a couple of things I want to make sure that. No, let's do this. 19 law enforcement officers gather in the hallway, but don't enter the classroom because of alleged incident Commander Ronaldo was treating the situation as a barricaded subject instead of an active shooter.

[Tyler]

Oh, and what. What did they not have on scene the entire time? You remember courage? Yes. They also had no incident command. They had.

[Chance Cooper]

No, no, no. They had incident command. Nobody stepped up to have.

[Tyler]

No, they had no incident.

[Chance Cooper]

That's what I'm saying. I've been there. You want to know what incident command for us was on a lot of our. Our direct response stuff. A grease like, I would tear down my carrier. A. A dry erase marker in the back of my window of my patrol car.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

They had nothing.

[Chance Cooper]

This is what I'm saying. Like, they had the capabilities to start an incident command. They had a swat, but they didn't start to do it.

[Tyler]

They didn't have one. They had no scene, no. No place for people to go. Even before you create a staging area, you got to have somewhere where guys can go and say, put me somewhere.

[Chance Cooper]

So for everybody's understanding, like, this is on the hallway. This is now also being broadcast outside it for Kansas City. We call it a Metro Wide Assist. I don't know what they would call it. Uvalde, but everybody's starting to get called at this point in time. Bortac, Marshalls, everybody's running hot to this all over. They're showing up and not knowing where to go because there is no incident command, which means they're showing up, and all they have are people kind of walking around, not sure. And they're just all. When you watch the body cam, everybody's kind of screaming, and there's no. It's all chaos. It's all chaos. So naturally, you're showing up going, well, this is bad.

[Brent Tucker]

It's no command. And Control?

[Tyler]

None.

[Chance Cooper]

None whatsoever. All right. At 12:10, first group of U.S. marshals arrive at the school to assist the female student in the classroom. 112 calls 911. I'm sorry. I apologize. I apologize. At 1203, the first female student from room 112. So for everybody understands the layout, you have 111 and 112, and there's a door. There's a common door adjoining them. So they. You can go from 111 to 112 through that door and not leave and go out in the hallway. Yeah, so that's how Ramos went back and forth. So a student inside of 112 calls and says that she's inside. So now at 1203, we have confirmation that kids are calling 911 and begging for help.

[Brent Tucker]

And I wanted to make this.

[Chance Cooper]

And this is where it starts to.

[Brent Tucker]

Get really dark, super clear about. About the, The. The room layout. So like any school, you can go down the hallway, and from as you're going down the hallway, you can see room 112 to your right. You can keep going. You can see room 111 to your right. What he's talking about is once you're inside those rooms, there's a door that connects both rooms. So you can flow to 111 to 112 without coming out into the hallway. Do that. It's very common in a lot of. And it's actually a major tactical advantage.

[Chance Cooper]

Yes, it is, but we'll.

[Brent Tucker]

We'll. We'll go over that later. But that's. That's. Want to make sure everyone can visualize what the scenario is.

[Chance Cooper]

All right, so first, at 12:10, first group of U.S. marshals arrive. And man, if you know anything with my boys in the marshals, they bring, you know, they bring a lot of the equipment. I'm going to go on that. There's a very good chance they might have cameras. This is where you need to start being, what are the assets are the feds bringing? Do they have robots? Do they have cameras?

[Tyler]

What does that matter?

[Chance Cooper]

A lot, because they're treating it like a barricade. Hang on. If they are truly treating this like a barricade, let's play devil's advocate, and I'll say, okay, Chief, you're treating it like a barricade. You now have the ability of always trying to figure out what resources do I have to manage what I have right now to get them on their heels to give that tactical advantage. And I'm not saying that this is how you do it. Now.

[Tyler]

This is. Well, at 1203, they had confirmation. Dispatch did put it out, and there was cops outside saying, now there's kids inside. There's these cops outside that they are overweight and they are outside, but they're trying to doing what they want to do. I guess they're trying to relay to Everybody, they're calling 91 1, there's kids inside. We're verified now. Why they didn't just go, fuck it, send me, I'm going in. You can follow me if you want. Is a different story. They wanted to be outside. And there was so many people outside, so many people evacuating kids out of windows. And it's like, oh, I want to. Like, I'm a hero. I'm outside, I'm helping.

[Chance Cooper]

And.

[Brent Tucker]

And to just piggyback on that just for a second to identify a problem, because that's really what we're trying to do here, identify problems to ensure they don't happen again. This isn't just a bashing Uvalde.

[Chance Cooper]

Correct.

[Brent Tucker]

This is identifying problems, make sure they never happen again. So, all right, the problem was in the sense.

[Chance Cooper]

I mean, we have another one that I think will go on with this. So at 12:03 was the first 911 call.

[Brent Tucker]

Yep.

[Chance Cooper]

At 12. At 12:10 was another one. At 12:12. So we're now at 10 minutes. We now have a third 911 call from inside of the room.

[Brent Tucker]

So the problem was they. And this is. This is human nature, they misidentified, although wrongly, they really shouldn't have, but they misidentified and said, hey, this is a barricaded shooter, not an active shooter, and they wouldn't know his protocols. The problem is they went into planning and never adjusted their plan based on new information, which is exactly what you're. You're frustrate, and rightfully so. And the marshals showed up, and it sounds like I want to get too far ahead, but it sounds like they showed up to go to continue along the plan that's already in place off the information they were given of a barricaded shooter. But at any point, anyone that's a man could have said, hey, stop. This is an active shooter still. We've misidentified it. And that's. And that's the problem. The problem is they got stuck in this plan.

[Tyler]

Law enforcement, we. We promote people that not be promoted. Right? That's a generalized statement that goes with a lot of industries as well. It's the military. However, in a scene like this, if you are my sergeant and I'M speaking from experience.

[Chance Cooper]

Yes.

[Tyler]

And you are incapable. I'm going to say I'm taking control. You are not capable of doing this.

[Chance Cooper]

It's almost like, you know a scene from Band of Brothers. Remember that scene with Lieutenant.

[Tyler]

Oh, yeah, Sykes.

[Chance Cooper]

Lieutenant Sykes. And completely overwhelmed on the charge. And he sends Spears out, and Spears takes control of that charge and ends up taking it. It's like, oh, you mean when you have good leadership ready to rock and roll and take control and say, hey, follow me. Guess what happens to all the other warriors of like, okay, we're ready to rock and roll. Guess what they'll follow.

[Tyler]

Question, question.

[Brent Tucker]

Those, those 911 calls from the kids.

[Chance Cooper]

You know, they go to the 911 dispatcher. Where does that information go from there? Do the guys in the hallway. Do the guys outside in the parking lot know that information? Or only leadership knows that information? No, it'll be disseminated over general dispatch. Now, if everybody hears it, that's a whole different story, because when you watch videos, you can tell that they might have vests on, but they may not be equipped because you've got radios, but they may not have a mic. And then that mic may not have an earpiece, so they might have it turned off. Because if dispatch is putting something over, it's going to be putting a sound out everywhere while they're talking. It's talking like, ah, shoot. So they turn it down, and now they're not getting that information. So the whole reason why. And one thing, and I'm just going to do a little plug of what. One thing I love about what we're trying to do with Apollo is remove the inefficiency of communication. Because in a critical event, how we process communication is usually done through radios. And it's the most antiquated way of passing on intel and running a critical incident. And yet we've done it the entire time for as long as you can remember. And there has to be a better way to do that.

[Tyler]

I have a question about that. You're Central City pd. You show up, you've got this going on. I'm West City pd. I'm showing up to come help you. He's East City PD. We all run off different dispatches, correct? 1. Does Apollo just kind of, like, come together when we're all near each other? Is it quick? Like, I'm jumping on your channel? How does that work?

[Chance Cooper]

So you get a temporary license. So like, when, like, the marshals show up, hey, scan this. Get the, you know, take, like, scan this.

[Brent Tucker]

QR Code, scan this QR code.

[Chance Cooper]

Basically get like, take a couple minutes, download the app, and you'll log in, and then you pop up on my screen.

[Tyler]

Okay.

[Chance Cooper]

And so now we can actually bridge that communication.

[Tyler]

So I don't even have to have Apollo as long as you have Apollo?

[Chance Cooper]

As long as someone has Apollo.

[Brent Tucker]

Well, you'll have to download it down the download.

[Tyler]

Yeah, but I don't have. If my agency wants to be cheap and doesn't want it.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[Chance Cooper]

Yeah, that's. Yeah.

[Tyler]

This, The. The people, the victims won't suffer because of that as long as somebody has Apollo.

[Brent Tucker]

Right. And that goes back to. And that would probably happen at the. What do you call it, the incident commander. The incident crisis point. You're talking about where people showed up.

[Tyler]

There's no one.

[Brent Tucker]

Right. That's where that. That should be happening.

[Chance Cooper]

That's where all that would happen.

[Brent Tucker]

Download this. Go there. Go download this.

[Chance Cooper]

And so that way, when they'd look down, they'd see the perimeter. They'd see where people were, where they are, where they need resources.

[Tyler]

What if we all had Apollo, right? We had one, we had a centralized thing that said, I want all my jurisdictions to have the software. Do. Do we sync up as soon as we're on scene? Do we have to be like, I need to get on your Apollo channel.

[Chance Cooper]

I got it. So you can compartmentalize missions. So I'm gonna. We're getting off a little bit. I don't want this to be a whole plug for. But this is, like, capability. So it's part of the solution.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Chance Cooper]

Let's say, let's say you're an investigator, you're on swat, and I'm running some sort of a street crime.

[Tyler]

Why did he get to be on swat?

[Brent Tucker]

You can be on swat.

[Tyler]

I'm fat. If I'm an investor investigator, I'm already fat.

[Chance Cooper]

Dude, you got bolder shoulders today, man, but boulder shoulders, essentially what you do is just whenever you come together and I see you guys on the system, I just. You enter a standby lobby and I just enter you into the mission.

[Tyler]

Okay.

[Chance Cooper]

Sorry. But we are actively working. We have a lot more efficient solutions with our development team because they are rooted in making this better on the back end or underneath so you don't have to worry about it.

[Tyler]

Cool.

[Chance Cooper]

Can't talk about it. You know, we won't talk about it now because it's not a feature available to it. But essentially, that's how it do is you come into my ao, I see you're there, submit you to this mission. And now you're, you're heads up.

[Tyler]

Here's like an Xbox Live lobby.

[Brent Tucker]

Not to make it like a huge plug for Apollo, but we, like we said, I, I think it's, it's the answer to these. Which is, which is why we're talking about it. Radio communication. You miss it and, or you kind of hear it but. And this happens even. And you know, in, in my line of work, you hear it, but you don't really hear it because you're busy doing something.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

And that's where it's really important. And like.

[Tyler]

And you can't go back and it.

[Brent Tucker]

But you can with Apollo is you can go back and play it. You can send and really important messages out on basically via text.

[Chance Cooper]

That the chat feature. Media chat feature.

[Brent Tucker]

So if you miss something on voice, you missed it. But in a chat feature, you put out the important information and when I have time look at. Scroll it like. Okay, I'm, I'm up to date.

[Chance Cooper]

Yeah. So just so we're all clear, if I were to tell you like, my, my priorities for handling a crisis event like this would be you have absolute and utter confidence in your hard skills. You have to have the hard skills because tactics can't take place 100%. Tactics can't replace hard skills. Yep. But hard skills can make way and alleviate a lot of the stuff that bad tactics might, might have. So it goes hard skills. Tactics and technology is right there with it.

[Brent Tucker]

I agree with that.

[Chance Cooper]

Because we're going to show you the Nashville thing. And they didn't have technologies, but they had. You could tell his, his, his skills were, were pretty good, but you could tell that his tactics were good. And so he was being a lot more effective than what we see in Uvalde. So just so we're all clear, guys, I'm saying work on your hard skills. Tactics and technology will help support your hard skills 100%. So just so we're clear.

[Tyler]

Have courage.

[Chance Cooper]

And I think actually I got it before that, but I think Matt Pranka preaches that a lot.

[Brent Tucker]

He does.

[Chance Cooper]

He preaches that a lot. Which is rightfully so. Rightfully so.

[Brent Tucker]

So we're at 1212.

[Chance Cooper]

All right, 1212. Actually we're gonna jump a little. So hang on. So we're now at about 20, 20 minutes where there hasn't been an active shot, but we're getting all the intel that the classrooms are full of kids and victims. So we have 911 calls stating there's kids that are alive, kids that are hurt, and kids that are Dead.

[Tyler]

Yes.

[Chance Cooper]

So I don't know how much more intel you need for let. Excuse me, mom and dad, let's fucking go. Right. Like, you tell me that. And it's like, I don't like, fire me.

[Tyler]

The whole. The whole. The premise of this episode is driving me crazy because we have to think like, okay, we're not thinking that way. And it's bugging the shit out of me because every 15 seconds my mind goes back to why are we even talking about this? But we're having to do it the way what their mindset was.

[Brent Tucker]

And by the way, we are 45 minutes on scene from to where we are right now. These cops have been on scene with an active shooter for 45 minutes. It's gotta feel like an eternity.

[Chance Cooper]

This would be. Can you play my video real quick? So this is a outside analyst who's analyzing the policies and I think she did a pretty good job. Not this one. Sorry, The.

[Tyler]

The last video in the.

[Chance Cooper]

Yeah, that one.

[Brent Tucker]

The first few moments of a response is crucial.

[Chance Cooper]

Is what experts said, hey, that's a rifle. This is the best moment in time.

[Brent Tucker]

To engage the shooter and rescue any victims. So officers initially did that and then they stumbled back when they're grazed by bullets.

[Tyler]

And that ends up really setting the.

[Brent Tucker]

Stage for the rest of the response. No one tried to go into the.

[Tyler]

Room for another 70 minutes. 70.

[Chance Cooper]

Honestly didn't think you. Anybody was in there.

[Tyler]

Yeah. Besides the gunman. One thing that I typically hate it when civilians chime in on law enforcement and said, they should have done that. She has every right to sit there and say, I don't wear a badge. You wear a badge and you should have done this. Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

She's not wrong. Even a girl knows.

[Chance Cooper]

So here's the hard part now. And this is where like I had to. It got pretty dark when you actually go. And now watch some of these documentaries that are coming out. They put side by side with the interviews of that followed immediately after this with the responding officers with. Now the parents are now coming out and giving their stories. And I couldn't think of anything more that police officers should go do than listen to the. What the parents are saying. Because this. This is what they're saying. If they go. If I could have made a list of everybody I wanted to respond to save my kid and Uvalde and I gave a. I want this, this, this and this person there. They were all there in the hallway. Right. At first they were there and they did nothing. And then when you listen to their interviews, they start Talking like. Just like that one. Well, we didn't know if anybody was in there. And it's like, well, but you did very soon and nothing changed. You still waited another thing.

[Tyler]

So it's just like Brent said, they did not change based off of the new information that they had in the first place.

[Brent Tucker]

They had in the first place. Yeah.

[Chance Cooper]

Right. All right, so because guess what happens at 12:21, Brent? Four more shots are. Four more shots bring out. So now we have more shooting. Orlando says we have lost two kids. These walls are thin. If he starts shooting, we're going to lose more kids. I hate to say we have to put those to the side right now.

[Tyler]

Is it the scene with those four shots, too? If you watch it. If you watch, there's probably 15 people stacked up. Not stacked up, but they're in there. As soon as those shots go off, everyone ducks down.

[Chance Cooper]

So not only that, but I think the shots are actually. It rips through. I think what causes this is that one of these volleys, it goes through walls and it actually hits people at the very end of the classrooms, like where the chief of police came down. Like, they got hit. She got hit in the. She got hit in the side. And I believe that was right now because I think that's what's caused him to say that the walls are thin is because due to one of these volleys, it actually starts shooting through the walls and hits people that they have not evacuated yet. So this is what I'm telling you. Like, we are. We compound our own problems because we don't handle the ones in front of us.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[Chance Cooper]

And so it becomes a. We are constantly playing a game of catch up. And we've been so bad at that. Yet nothing changes. Nothing changes.

[Tyler]

And the evacuation, too. I've already touched on that. How much of a fucking joke that was for those guys trying to do that. But it shouldn't even be a thing. You've got so many people in the rear that I shouldn't. That shouldn't even be. Just get out. Go. Go. We've got 27 rifles pointed at this room.

[Brent Tucker]

Go.

[Tyler]

It shouldn't be like a takeaway from the initial response. All right, we're going to evacuate these kids.

[Chance Cooper]

And I believe it actually has exterior windows as well, guys. So, I mean, there's another way.

[Brent Tucker]

So many ports.

[Chance Cooper]

Some ports. Intel, what's going on inside all of that. Right, right. Okay. So 1224, remember, there have now been multiple 911 calls from people inside the classroom. Understand that now at 12:27, Arananda says people are going to ask why we're taking so long. We're trying to preserve the rest of the life. Or Ananda that says, there's a window over there. Obviously the door is probably going to be locked. Do you remember how I said they assume too much? He says, obviously, because remember, everybody's saying the door was never locked, but everybody's being told the door is over there is locked. Sorry. The window over there, obviously the door is locked. The nature of this place. I'm going to get some keys to test it. This is what. This is what's coming out. A Halligan tool is brought in. At 12:36. The students from 1:112. Dude, this gets me. Students again are calling, saying, come help. Like how much more of a. How much more of a. Get your asses up and excuse me for being a little unprofessional. Right. But how. How much more motivation do you need to get in there? So now we are now well into this multiple 911 calls from students saying that they are. That they're needing help. 12:41, Aranondo again says, just, just, you understand, we think there's injuries in there. And just so, you know, cleared off the rest of the building so we wouldn't have anyone else hurt in there, obviously. And this is a script. So that's why the grammatical error, the poor grammar. At 12:43, another 911 call from 112 comes in and asks the operator, please send police. Now, 1246, a student in classroom 112 calls again and says that she hears the police outside. Please send help. Orlando at 12:46 simultaneously says, if y'all are ready to do it, do it, but you should distract him out of the window. So we got a plan or something? All right. Oh, man. And at 12:50. At 12:50, Bortak shows up, starts taking control. And I can let you take. Because we've got that. That video. So up until this point, there is an amp. There is everybody showing up. And so I'll go over a little bit of some. Some statistics at the end of this, when this is all. When the shooter is actually killed. There's over 150 officers that have responded and showing up on scene. Okay. Because something that cops are really good at. You put that officer assist out. Everybody's coming. I've had to drop it. I've had to respond to it. I've had to respond to an officer involved shooting. I've had to. And I'll tell you this, when you hear that it's like, dude, we're coming, right? The problem is, is that when they get there, they don't know what to do, which is what happens in a.

[Brent Tucker]

Hurry, to be a spectator.

[Chance Cooper]

So some observations I've got are, in fact, this is the first thing I said when I'm doing my notes for this. The first thing I said that I was like, if I could tell your audience one thing to all the cops that are listening, this is 100% guaranteed gonna happen again. Whether it happens to you today or tomorrow. This will 100% happen again multiple times. And if you are doing nothing but exactly what you did yesterday, you should probably turn in your badge or do a gut check for what you really want to do. Because I can tell you this, not everybody there was a coward. But I can tell you all, 150 of those officers are gonna feel like they're a coward because they got there and they were told it was a barricade. Like, okay, we're handling this as a barricade, but something's not right. They're getting put in with the same brush. Even though they're not cowardice, they were dealing with what information they had.

[Brent Tucker]

Right?

[Chance Cooper]

And so that's fair. If one thing is that this will 100% happen again.

[Tyler]

Choose your leaders wisely too, and then.

[Brent Tucker]

Ignore them when they don't act.

[Tyler]

I mean, I'm telling you, I cannot stress enough the leaders in law enforcement. A lot of them are not good at their job. A lot of them are selfish, self thinking, looking out for their own, and they have pride. And again, that goes with leadership and everything. But it's really bad in law enforcement. I can speak on it and I watch guys not call out leaders and they're like, well, I just want it to go smoothly.

[Chance Cooper]

Well, I'll play both sides. I'll play both sides because given I've been pretty lucky that with the last three years, I've traveled around and trained with agencies all over the nation. And now that I get to do it with Brent, it's going to be even better. I'll tell you this is that there are some amazing, amazing leaders out there and they're some of the best people that I've had the privilege of working with. And I'll tell you this, I go out of my way to make sure they know that.

[Tyler]

Are you talking about SWAT teams, though?

[Chance Cooper]

Well, we train a lot of SWAT teams. But I mean, I've worked with like investigators. I work with a lot of policy people. Especially now in my role with Apollo, I Deal with a lot of administrators because we're due with all the negotiation stuff, right? Like, all the licensing. And when I find those, I'm finding those. Those good leaders. I'll tell you this. I make sure they know that, because I sure as hell was appreciative of the good people I worked for, and I didn't understand how good I had it with the task force, with the dudes that I was around, because they. They were the best examples of professionals I've ever been in private to work around. So not. I don't want to have this be all supervisors are bad, but I'll tell you this, is that there's a lot of them, but the good ones need to make sure that they know that they're appreciated, because, man, they are. I mean, we'll watch with chances.

[Tyler]

Got to give you the PC answer that there are some good ones out there, because there are. But there was none there because a good one would have taken over.

[Chance Cooper]

Well, the good one did take over.

[Tyler]

Ah, yes. Do you want to play that video now?

[Chance Cooper]

Let's play that.

[Tyler]

All right.

[Chance Cooper]

So understand, remember, guys, the context of what? Not this one. Not this one. The bortac one. He really wants to play that one for the context.

[Brent Tucker]

That one's Nashville.

[Chance Cooper]

Drew for the context.

[Brent Tucker]

Talking about Nashville.

[Chance Cooper]

BORTAC has showed up, and they've been told just like everybody, barricade, barricade, barricade. He's now realizing the hairs on the back of his head are going. Something's not right. Play the clip.

[Tyler]

I think it's the fourth one. I think it's that one right there.

[Brent Tucker]

Paul Guerrero arrives at the north end of the hall. Who is this hero?

[Chance Cooper]

If there's kids and they're saying there's. Is it killing people, or is it. Is your mom be shot? The subject no one knows about kids or anything else. They have. No, there's the kids and teachers in there, but they're just the officers. Tell him the gunman. Oh, perfect place to pause it. I'm gonna tell you this. I count 1, 2. What is. What is all that on the floor, dude? Is that gas?

[Tyler]

Gas containers?

[Chance Cooper]

That kind of looks like.

[Brent Tucker]

It looks like it.

[Chance Cooper]

It looks like almost like CS canisters or something like that. So I'm seeing.

[Brent Tucker]

I'm not sure. I'm not 100% sure.

[Chance Cooper]

Well, first off, the guy in the back with his hat on backwards, I bet.

[Tyler]

Is it.

[Chance Cooper]

Never mind. I probably shouldn't say that. I need to be professional.

[Brent Tucker]

Hey, will you call him a TikTok cop he's probably. He looks like a tick tock cop to me. If he doesn't make the videos, he definitely likes them.

[Chance Cooper]

Okay. And those could be Red Bull cans.

[Tyler]

Could be.

[Chance Cooper]

Oh, my gosh, Drew. Well, it didn't give them wings, so they're not. All right, so I'm counting right now. I'm seeing one, two, three rifles, a shield, heavy vests, four rifles. I think that's adequate enough of equipment to go and sit there and pry and take this piece of evil down. But then again, it's just me. Okay, sorry. Keep playing in a classroom down the.

[Brent Tucker]

Hall and that the door is locked.

[Chance Cooper]

When I walked in and saw all those officers there. Officers. Agents of area law enforcement. They advised me that.

[Tyler]

Okay, that's okay. We don't need. I'll edit that out. But you can see the first. Not the frustration, the kind of confusion when he's like, okay, right.

[Chance Cooper]

I'm.

[Tyler]

We're getting reports of teachers and children, But I got 60 guys telling me that we have a barricade. So you're not trying to be overzealous because you don't want to be that guy. Like, he was very professional, but he's like, he's. You could see him starting to piece it together.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[Chance Cooper]

You could see in his face of like, there's kids in there. Right? Hey, there's kids in there. Right?

[Tyler]

We define kids the same way. Right, Right.

[Brent Tucker]

Which is crazy goats, because all the information that they got wrong at the end of the day didn't matter about the action that needed to be taken. So as this guy's even taken in partial. Like, not partial, but truth, along with, you know, things that aren't true, there's a. The truth that they do know is enough for action. And he's. And he's realizing that as he's. As he's getting that information.

[Chance Cooper]

Yeah, correct. And at that point, essentially, just so everybody knows it, is a tally ho. Let's fricking go. What?

[Tyler]

Let me ask you guys, this. This is just an opinion, because I've never been put in a situation. Do you think that the. I don't want to say the word hype, but when you're. When you're about to fucking go, you're going, you're going. And then you ice the kicker and you sit there for an hour. Do you think it's hard for these guys to have the courage to go back into that mindset of we got to kill this guy?

[Brent Tucker]

100%.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay, 100. It's like, it's like being on a. On an airplane and it's time to jump out. When the doors open, it's time to go.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

You want to sit there and think about it and think about. And think about jumping out of the airplane. You're going to talk yourself. Right. You know, like, I think you can relate to that. Yeah, yeah. Yep.

[Chance Cooper]

So you should. A stethoscope is used around the net with purple gloves to give instruction. I don't know what that is. Anyway, I'll tell you that. Here's my answer on that. I bet it is. But I'm going to tell you this. I don't think it should matter. Like, it should be like.

[Brent Tucker]

Right. You can always regain momentum. You can.

[Chance Cooper]

I mean.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Chance Cooper]

You know this. And I'm going to say that. You know this. But if you get to that point where you. If it really is. And here's the thing is, I've never been on a hostage rescue. I've never done the training of it. Right. And. But we know that if our QRF gets to the point where they are. They're getting that point where mentally, like, they need just a quick break. There's a way of doing it and make sure that they are as sharp as attack. Right. If you have the. Do you guys call it battlefield fatigue or something like that? Of like. Wait, wait.

[Brent Tucker]

Absolutely. Right.

[Chance Cooper]

But in this. This shouldn't matter. No, it should not be mattering here. That is not. That does not apply here.

[Tyler]

And I honestly think the fear of. Of being the first one in the door. You're gonna catch rounds. I mean, I would like to think that there's a guy going, I'll do it. Because there's always that guy, and you always know who he is. He always volunteers first. He always does the hard that no one wants to do. That's the guy. At the end of the day, he's gonna go, I don't want. I don't. You know what, Brent? I don't want that to be you because I love you. I want it to be me. And everybody. If everybody had that mindset. Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Were you leaving me at like, what? So what? What? Just keep going. What happens? Feel like you paused a movie at the end. Like, keep going.

[Chance Cooper]

So at this point in time, Bortak shows up and is takes over command and says, we're gonna go.

[Tyler]

They officially do.

[Chance Cooper]

They officially take over and they're gonna say, hey, we're heading in, as they're moving in. I don't know. So here's the thing is that I do know now that there's. I don't know if it's legal ramification, but what happens now and how this goes about. I think there's a lot of like. Because all I could find is essentially Bortak shows up and takes over and they go storm the door. That's all like the official information that's out because initially it was. They got the keys and they unlocked it, but now there's reports that it was never unlocked. The whole point is that.

[Brent Tucker]

You mean it was never locked?

[Chance Cooper]

It was. Sorry. It was never locked. And so what does know is that as they're doing. Oh, we don't have this. This would be one to do. If you can overlay it right now with what I'm about to say. Bortak is essentially going. And they're moving down the hall and there's this really creepy scene of a guy with guns stopping people. Hang on. As they're moving towards the door, he's almost like in an aggressive way saying, like, I don't agree with this. Stopping people from moving forward while the heroes. And it's like, hey, man, they're bypassing him. Well, some are bypassing and then finally he's moving. But the whole point is that the team's down the hall, they make entry and they shoot Ramos and kill him.

[Tyler]

And I thought that dude was doing that after the shooting.

[Chance Cooper]

No, they're moving down the hall.

[Tyler]

Oh, my. This book, I've never. It was like a. It was like a Karen at the. Holding a line at the. Picking up your kid at school.

[Chance Cooper]

Oh, my gosh.

[Tyler]

The guy was like, no, no, like my authority. And guys are like, dude, get the fuck off me.

[Chance Cooper]

Hey, you know who that guy is?

[Tyler]

Who.

[Chance Cooper]

So there was this. There's this saying, you know, the Karens.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Chance Cooper]

There's a guy that I worked around, we call him Larry. We called him the Karen of the tactical world. And so we had this saying that said, don't be a Larry. You know, don't be a Karen. That guy was a Larry. Yeah.

[Tyler]

If anybody knows who that guy is, please reach out and let us know because this is.

[Chance Cooper]

Where's the name for that?

[Brent Tucker]

It's called A Darren.

[Tyler]

A Darren.

[Brent Tucker]

No, I like Karen.

[Chance Cooper]

I like Larry.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah. But here's what's crazy. At the end of the day. Hey, at the end of the day, men showed up. Men showed up on scene, got all the information that need that they needed, which was all the information that. That they had. Again, screw all. Everything they got wrong, what they did have. Right. They took that Information and they acted. And what really, really pisses me off, if I'm looking at this timeline and I hear that more shots are fired, I don't know if we'll ever know this. I don't care if there's no shots being fired. Like when you showed up. How many kids were shot before you got there and are bleeding out and need medical attention now, how many of those kids were shot during. When more shots were fired at 12:21 that caused more bleeding?

[Chance Cooper]

Correct.

[Brent Tucker]

And. Or killed them when at 12:21. This thing should have been over at 11, 3. Three minutes after they showed up. They had enough men. Five people is exactly who they needed. Two of them had rifles. They had everything they needed immediately.

[Chance Cooper]

Correct.

[Brent Tucker]

How many kids bloods are on your hand?

[Chance Cooper]

I have a timeline for that. And at 11:33am is when there was a volley of around 100 rounds. So I'm going to assume this is when a lot of the, A lot of the, the killing happened.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[Chance Cooper]

Which was right around when they're making entry. So, so, so just so we're understanding some for context, it is assumed that a majority of the children. Pat. And victims passed away in that initial push.

[Brent Tucker]

Or at least we're bleeding out.

[Chance Cooper]

Yeah. Okay. Thank you.

[Brent Tucker]

Go ahead.

[Chance Cooper]

Thank you. Because remember, their calls are saying there's injured and we don't know what type of injured. And you do know that with bullet wounds, if you can get them in, get triage going, you can save the lives. Okay. So from 11:33 to when they finally made entry, I think it was at 12:50. 12:50am 70 minutes. They had ample information to get in there. So there wasn't a. There was some shooting back and forth. Remember they took rounds through the door. They had I think four or five volley rounds through the walls, which probably hit the teacher at the end of the thing. But there. It's not like they're. He's going around and shooting all the man. This is. I hate talking about this.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah.

[Chance Cooper]

It's not like he's going around doing that.

[Brent Tucker]

But it does all have kids here.

[Chance Cooper]

But it doesn't matter. But it doesn't matter. They have enough information to get in and at least they would have been able to maybe save a few. And we don't know. And that's, that's the whole. We don't know. But what we do know is how they handled this.

[Tyler]

The mind of a killer is unique in its own. They have an entire profession in the FBI that studies people like this. I, I would think it's fair to say that that hundred round volley that you talked about was because he was like, y'all ain't coming in. I'll give you a reason to come in.

[Chance Cooper]

Well, he wanted to. He wanted to do a school shoot. But maybe he.

[Tyler]

Wait. Maybe the reason why. Maybe he was just using that in some weird way to. To engage.

[Brent Tucker]

But I mean, sure, yeah, the. And you've been two or three times out with me.

[Chance Cooper]

I've been with you three times.

[Brent Tucker]

And it's, it's so. And this is why I teach the way I do one about hostage rescue. I just. I say it time and time and time and time again. Everything we do is for the hostage. The hostage is safety is number one, will always be number one. Anything you do for your own safety is automatically wrong. Everything is for the hostage. And the other thing I teach is we have all these tools we can use, but we're going to take all those tools and put them to the side and I'm going to show you how to. To win this gunfight with just you and your rifle and everything else added onto this.

[Chance Cooper]

Correct.

[Brent Tucker]

Is great. But it's not. The only thing you need to win a gunfight is a gun. And you know that. That police. And a little bit of courage. Yeah. And that police officer giving all the reasons that he didn't. I didn't have this so we couldn't go. I didn't have this so we couldn't go. You had a police officer and a weapon. That was all you ever needed to stop this.

[Chance Cooper]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, some other key facts. So as we wrap up and we transition into Nashville, here's some stuff that I want to just kind of like some food for thought from Ferguson Uvalde. It feels like there is, you know, we're destined. I tell this in the beginning like we're deal. We're. We're destined to fail prior to. Because we're not addressing the real problems which is how to really master the hard skills from training in the academy all the way back up all the way up to the very. To the very tip top. So making sure standardized training supporting. I mean we can go into a whole part of that because this is not about like the culture police officers and stuff. I think JBO did an amazing job kind of breaking down some of that. But prioritize and understanding prioritizing our mission of what we are all about. You and I were talking about this like as a cop. If you were to go to a cop now and say what's the main Mission of a cop. Because I. When I was first starting, it was, you're gonna go and stop bad guys.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Chance Cooper]

And, dude, it was like the biggest, like, incentive, dude, when you got arrest, all of this, it was like, dude, this is the greatest thing ever. Like, I remember being pinched. He's like, dude, we get paid for this. We really get paid for this. I mean, so. And I. It was so much fun. And we were a little. But, dude, it was so much fun. The culture of it was, we are here to stop bad guys. We are here to do that.

[Tyler]

And the culture supported it, and our culture supported it.

[Brent Tucker]

How about. It's a little bit of a cliche and probably older, you know, tagline for cops, but protect and serve, right?

[Chance Cooper]

The finest. Community's finest. What was the.

[Brent Tucker]

The finest there's for New York?

[Tyler]

LAPD had to protect and serve.

[Brent Tucker]

Protect and serve. I love that motto. And one, it's protect. The first thing my job is to do is protect you guys, protect you from bad guys. And basically, we have this culture where our citizens expect just for you. You serve me. I mean, how often do we see that on you work for me. You serve me.

[Chance Cooper]

Sure.

[Brent Tucker]

I protect you. And my service to you. The serve part really is the protection. Like, everything I do, my serve is also tied in to protecting you. I. We take bad guys off the streets. That protects you. And this, you know, and these, in these very, you know, direct instances, you're called to protect these kids, protect these families, protect these communities. Your protectors. And protectors have to be violent. Yeah, protectors have to be violent. And it's that whole Jordan story clip, right? I mean, uncontrolled violence is what makes bad people. But good guys have to be capable of violence. And there wasn't a man on that scene that day until Bortak showed up that was capable of violence.

[Tyler]

Well, and we talk about it all the time. It's the guardian versus the warrior mentality. And they want a lot of admin in today's world, in the police world. They want guardians. They do not want warriors. Right.

[Chance Cooper]

Well, there's a funny quote about that that I remember when I was. Geez, I was almost. I think it was in high school, just right out of high school. And I remember hearing this. Out of every 100 men, 10 shouldn't even be there, or they definitely shouldn't be in command. 80 are just targets. 9 are real fighters, and we're lucky to have them, for they make the battle. But the one, the one is a warrior, and he will bring the Others back.

[Brent Tucker]

I love, love that saying. And you know what they had there? They had a bunch of cops that were more than willing to play basketball with kids.

[Chance Cooper]

Oh, geez, dude, that's a, that's a clip.

[Brent Tucker]

Stop playing basketball with kids and start protecting them.

[Tyler]

Thank you. Thank you. Get me all upset or dancing on tick tock.

[Brent Tucker]

Well, that's how it's. That's how it's done. Wrong. We did. Thank you for that. You did a great job of analyzing that. A minute by minute report analyzing it, showing what they were thinking, what they misdiagnosed, what they got right, what they got wrong, and who showed up to save the day. It's super important. I love the fact that you talked about Apollo, because at the end of the day, we can sit here and second guess them all we want, but our intent is to say, how does this not happen again?

[Chance Cooper]

Sure.

[Brent Tucker]

And we did that. Which is a great segue into that's how it's done wrong. That's not, that's not, that's not. Cops across across this country. No, they're there and we have to be aware of that. And we have to find them, figure it out, and root them out. But there are damn good cops across this country. And we, we have, we have instances of that as well.

[Chance Cooper]

We do have that. And what's interesting is that this happened the same year, just a few months later. So we have what not to do, and then we've got a what to do.

[Brent Tucker]

Do you think? I mean, I don't know if you can, you can't answer this question, but in your opinion, do you. Because Uvalde was nationwide. There's no one that does it. And there's not an American that has a TV that or a smartphone that doesn't know about Uvalde.

[Chance Cooper]

Right.

[Brent Tucker]

Do you think you, do you think Uvalde played a part and the outcome of, of the Nashville shooter?

[Chance Cooper]

Not at all.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay.

[Chance Cooper]

The reason why is because when you, when you see this, the people who show up, the two officers, Rex Engelberg and Michael Collazo. Collazo. I'm not sure, man. Sorry. If you're listening, they showed up and they, they were prepared. And it. It's more than just a few months of preparation.

[Brent Tucker]

Exactly. That's a good answer. Solid answer.

[Tyler]

Collazo. Yeah. He's Hispanic, right? Yeah.

[Chance Cooper]

I don't know, man.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[Tyler]

Because the two L's either make a Y or an L. Not.

[Chance Cooper]

Why? Because it's colazo.

[Brent Tucker]

But no, I absolutely agree with you. It happens so fast. Some People want to go, well, you know, that happened, so they fixed it. But you're absolutely right. It takes more time than a couple months to fix a culture and to fix tactics and aggressiveness. That's something that has to be instilled day one.

[Tyler]

Well, let me ask you guys this. Do you think that if these two guys showed up on scene with 30 cops outside the door. Door, they would have done the same thing? Or do you think they would have been, like, got into the.

[Brent Tucker]

Got into the group Think.

[Chance Cooper]

Yeah, I know I'm gonna do this. To give these guys credit. I absolutely. They think. I think they would have. And this is why when you watch this. Watch how they're entering. Watch how they're entering.

[Tyler]

He enters with his left hand. We don't like that, but.

[Brent Tucker]

Well, you know, I agree with you.

[Chance Cooper]

What's.

[Brent Tucker]

What's, you know, the. The. The. The best. Let's say Uvalde happened in their city, you know, a few months later, and that was exactly how it played out. You know, what's the saying? The best predictor of future performance is past performance.

[Chance Cooper]

Correct.

[Brent Tucker]

So this is their past performance. So I believe they would have showed up on scene and said, we got. We gotta go, boys. Because they did it that day.

[Chance Cooper]

Correct.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Chance Cooper]

Now, that being said, do you want to pull up the clip? And here's some stuff I want to show you from where my mindset was, because I remember this, like, because I was actually training, doing some. The counterterrorism training the day after this. The day after this. Because I remember watching this immediately when this body camera came out, this body. This camera footage came out. And then the first 30 seconds, I already knew that this was probably going to be a different outcome, you know, because we knew the shooter. There was a lot of secrecy behind this because of that stupid. What's the. What are they. What do they write afterwards? Remember, they write, like, their intent. What is that called again?

[Brent Tucker]

Oh, their manifesto.

[Chance Cooper]

Manifesto. Remember, they hide. They hid this manifesto. So there was a lot of secrecy or whatever because of all the political stuff. Right. This is the transgender that went and shot up the school, and they were transgender.

[Brent Tucker]

Right.

[Chance Cooper]

So.

[Brent Tucker]

So I don't know. Was it a. A manifesto, a womanifesto? I don't know. It depends on what it was.

[Chance Cooper]

It was. Were a festo.

[Brent Tucker]

I want to hit the desk.

[Tyler]

But I did.

[Chance Cooper]

I was ready drew for that.

[Brent Tucker]

All right.

[Chance Cooper]

That was my favorite memes when they were coming around with it.

[Brent Tucker]

Let's watch this video. Let's watch how it's done this. Okay.

[Chance Cooper]

Okay.

[Brent Tucker]

And about this. I've seen this video. We can sit there and, you know, I can analyze their tactics and what they did wrong all day long. And it's, It's. It's not about that. Like, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how trained you are to do the tactics perfectly. It's that you kept pushing forward. And that's what they did most. Right. Most of all.

[Tyler]

Oh, he said just play Metro Police.

[Chance Cooper]

They're making announcements to keep him on his.

[Brent Tucker]

I could. I have. Again, I have no interest in. And, and sitting there. Oh, he could have done this. He could have done that. No, they're moving forward.

[Chance Cooper]

Did you notice that? They're not out of breath.

[Brent Tucker]

Yeah, just keep pressing. That's. That's all I ask of you guys. Just keep pressing.

[Tyler]

Man. That. That alarm is hyping me up.

[Brent Tucker]

Watch.

[Chance Cooper]

They don't know where to go. They have shots going on upstairs. So now it's driving them upstairs.

[Tyler]

Stimulus.

[Brent Tucker]

And hear that. Keep pushing. Go, go.

[Tyler]

Shots fire. Shots fire.

[Brent Tucker]

Shots fire.

[Chance Cooper]

Move.

[Brent Tucker]

Let me tell you, these guys are amped up right now, but they're. And I'm sure they're. They're a little bit scared. I'm sure they're. I don't know if scared's the word they want to use, but they're. They're nervous. They don't want to die, but they're still moving forward.

[Tyler]

They're courageous.

[Chance Cooper]

Reloading. I call that night. Night.

[Tyler]

Yeah, just a little bit. Just a little love.

[Brent Tucker]

And here's. All right.

[Tyler]

No open casket for that.

[Brent Tucker]

Okay, here's, here's, Here's a little bit of my pushback of this. And I don't. I'm not saying cops don't need more training. You should always, well, welcome more training. But we, we push this all the time. Oh, cops. I mean, how often do you hear that cops need more training? Cops need more training. Cops need more training. It's a. Their training again. I'd hate to like to. To hit this over and over. Those were. Those were horrible tactics for clearing. I could have nitpicked them all day long. It wasn't training that, that they needed that they need. They need a culture that allows them to push forward without fear of their jobs or a culture before they get into that environment that makes them want to question everything they. They do because they've been told not to be aggressive. They've been clearly feel like they've been allowed to do their job, and they did their job. That's what they need more than training. Add training on top of that, and you got a really good police force.

[Chance Cooper]

Amen. Amen. So the. The thing that I add when I watched that initially, of a big pet peeve I have, is that people get a lot of false understanding of. I say cqb and I'm in no way, shape or form like, where you're at or thousands of other people. But I think I know a little bit. And what I appreciated. Sorry, what I don't like is Instagram, where everybody chases what I call the perfect rep out of Instagram, all the videos, because to me, that's never actual cqb. What I appreciated about this and what I noticed instantly and every time I see it is they were making mistakes, but they weren't making the drastic ones to completely derail what their mission was. And not only that, because I bet he had never worked with the first guy, the guy with a shotgun. I bet he'd never worked with that guy before. But I hate Instagram. That puts the culture of pushing the perfect rep, you know, like, nothing against DJ and all those guys, but, like, they watch true professionals do a perfect rep, and it's not. Man, it sounds weird. It's not like, what I would say is true cqb, which is like, to me, people who understand CQB are, how do I adjust to problems as they come up and use the team to help manage those problems? And what I liked about this from the very beginning is watching him or them, because all of them, they're there with people who were a little bit less trained than them, and they're having to essentially follow me while still doing the thing. And then they ended up, if you. There's one of them, if not this one, you watch that, they're actually telling these guys to move on. Like, pass me past me. You guys come up and they're like, absolutely. And they go up and actually take the shot. And I'm like, that is who I want to be. Like, that's who I hope I was. That's. I mean, just everything about them of, like, well done. They get the. I'm going to crisscross. They get the antihero badass of, for sure.

[Brent Tucker]

I want to drill down what you said just a little bit more and clarify. I think I know what you mean by that. That there's nothing wrong with pursuing excellence and wanting the perfect rep. But. But when it becomes, hey, it's the perfect rep or nothing, or it's, you know, it's the perfect rep or it's all crap. Like, that's. That. That. That cannot be it. Obviously, like, per. You know, pursue the perfect rep, but what you got is. Is what you got. And there. And no, again, you've heard me say this in reps with. With. With other SWAT teams, there's no such thing as the perfect CQB rep. The unit gets it wrong all the time. How fast can you identify what went wrong? Make corrective actions, keep pushing forward. Make sure that that mistake doesn't have domino effects. Identify it, correct it, move on. That's cqb.

[Chance Cooper]

That's cqb. Yeah. And correct. I stand corrective or what you added of, like. I'm not. What I'm talking about with the Instagram stuff is they chase the dance like the Corey. They chase the choreography.

[Tyler]

What do you say about footwork?

[Brent Tucker]

I hate it. There's no such thing. There's no such thing as concentrating on footwork. Like, it's. It's. Again, you know, we talked about, like, making, you know, focusing on something that doesn't matter, and then, like, the bigger. Like, let's focus on bigger problems. We have teams that do footwork drills, and they focus on footwork. Footwork, footwork.

[Chance Cooper]

Wait, you're serious?

[Tyler]

Oh, yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

Oh, yeah. They. They will put tape where to pivot, where exactly to pivot your foot, and they will just do dry, dry run drills of footwork. I've seen it.

[Chance Cooper]

Are you. Hang on. Are you funny? Me? Like, are you.

[Brent Tucker]

I. I wish I was. I wish to God I was. There's people who take it very serious, and I assure you. Let's go look at the comment section after this. There's going to be some.

[Chance Cooper]

Some.

[Brent Tucker]

Some hurt people about this. But. But I say this. I say this. Me and whoever you are that works. That works on footwork. And hey, at the end of the day, like, maybe you just do that because you only know what you've been told. Okay. You only know what you've been told. I'm. I'm. I'm batting a thousand walking through doors in my lifetime. Tyler, you pretty good at walking through doors?

[Tyler]

Pretty good now. Took me a couple years, but I'm pretty good now.

[Brent Tucker]

What. What are we working on? What are. Everyone gets through a door, and the faster I tell you to go through that door, you will automatically become more efficient getting to that door. Because no one, at no point, if I told you, go through that door as fast as you can, you know, from. From the left side, at no point are you going to take four steps in the door. You automatically Become efficient, getting through fast. So we're concentrating on something that doesn't even matter. And any. And there's already a finite amount of time that law enforcement and tactical teams get to train. And any minute we give to something as stupid as footwork should have been a minute we gave to something that matters.

[Tyler]

And you're taking your mind off it. You're like, now you're thinking about my feet.

[Brent Tucker]

You have so many things to think about going into a room.

[Chance Cooper]

You're now making them focus down instead of up.

[Brent Tucker]

You have so many things to think about going into a room. Let's think of less things, not more things.

[Tyler]

Also, make sure you're breathing. I want to make sure.

[Chance Cooper]

Did you know that's the next.

[Brent Tucker]

Oh, don't. Don't even. Don't even introduce that. That'll be the next step. Breathing exercises, somebody.

[Tyler]

No, that icat part.

[Chance Cooper]

I'll do that. I'm sitting there.

[Brent Tucker]

But what's crazy. 5, 6, 7. Whenever this footwork thing came in, we'd have laughed about footwork the way we just laughed about breathing exercises. Yet here it is. So let's stop that right now.

[Chance Cooper]

Well. Well, anyway. All right. Well, man, that's all. That's all I got for the Uvaldi. And then.

[Tyler]

That was a great episode.

[Brent Tucker]

It's exactly what we asked of you. I mean, I really appreciate that, but.

[Chance Cooper]

You know, just because you and I've actually never really talked about anything like this before with no stuff.

[Brent Tucker]

We really haven't.

[Tyler]

We try not to talk about school shootings as often.

[Chance Cooper]

I mean, we've never really had, like, a hypothetical. Like, I feel like I'm in the hot seat right now with, you know, it's like with Brent and you and stuff like that of, like. I never really talk about, like, myself or my background because this dude. Here's the thing. There's a thousand other cops that kind of have done essentially what I did, but I'm pretty proud of it. But I never really talk about it. But you. And I've never actually talked about my mindset of how I approach stuff or anything.

[Brent Tucker]

Here's. Here's where. Even though we haven't talked about that. But you have been. You've been on the live before. We've gone out training together before.

[Chance Cooper]

Yeah.

[Brent Tucker]

And you get no special treatment.

[Chance Cooper]

No.

[Brent Tucker]

And do you know what's coming next?

[Chance Cooper]

I have an idea, but go ahead.

[Brent Tucker]

Do you have a funny story for us? Because these people are gonna need a funny story after a school shooting episode.

[Chance Cooper]

Oh, man. Okay. I do actually have One.

[Brent Tucker]

And it better not involve me.

[Chance Cooper]

Oh, no, it doesn't. But I'll tell you this, it involves pooping.

[Tyler]

Oh, go to true.

[Brent Tucker]

It's not alive.

[Chance Cooper]

Okay.

[Brent Tucker]

Although that was appropriate.

[Chance Cooper]

So I won't mention names, but everybody who knows this story, I hope, gets a good kick out of this. Because the person who this is about was legitimately like one of the most well known cops. Like the retirement party was the FBI flew people from Quantico for when this local cop was retired. He was a big deal. He was a freaking legendary. And he was exactly the character that you want in a movie, but better. Almost like way better. Put it this way, he was the guy that, like, if I'm running, if it's my mission and he shows up, I know that I'm giving stuff to him because he's been there. And it's not. He's not. Yeah, he's stepping on my toes. But he also has that respect among everybody that you're gonna let him take over, even though it's annoying, but because he. He's that cop, old school, always has your back, you know, that's what. That's who this guy is. And I do a really good impression. But it'll only be like 10 people that understand it. So we are. When I say we, we're getting ready to hit this door. And they ram is up, okay. To breach the door. And he goes, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. And everybody's like this. And we run around, goes around. This is an urban area. So he runs around a house, comes back buckling himself. He's like, okay, no, like that stops the donk over and apparently went behind the house and just. Wow, whatever. And it was like, didn't even.

[Brent Tucker]

Wait.

[Chance Cooper]

I don't know. I don't know, man.

[Brent Tucker]

He stopped an assault over a poop. That's an important poop right there.

[Chance Cooper]

But I mean, like, that's just like. Wait, what? Anyway, it was that time. Time that he went behind a house and a house and he stopped in a. He was like, what is going on?

[Tyler]

We kind of like as they're pushing. I'll take the bathroom.

[Brent Tucker]

I know, right?

[Tyler]

Gotta wipe my ass.