← The Anxious Achiever
The Anxious Achiever
Should You Be Yourself At Work? With Dr. Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Don't wait. Protect your privacy, build your brand and get your complete business identity in just 10 clicks and 10 minutes. Visit northwestregisteredagent.com achiever free. Just head to to and complete the short assessment to get matched with an in network psychiatrist in just a few minutes. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and at shopify.com anxiousachiever that's shopify.com anxiousachiever just head to brevo.com achiever to take your marketing further with Brevo and its AI assistant Aura, which will help you craft smarter campaigns and create great content. Can you should you ever be your whole self at work? I'm going to be honest with you. This is one of my least favorite debates because I think that the answer is no for everybody. But when you're neurodivergent, right, when you have a different brain, sometimes you bring yourself to work and it's tough. It's tough because of the systems of work. So today's guest and I, we really get into it. How can you be authentic at work in a way that isn't draining your battery through masking, but still be self aware, fit well with others? It's a dance. It's a debate. Let's get into it with Dr. Tomas Chamoro Primusic, who has written a book called Don't Be Yourself. I have to tell you that I expected to not like your book Don't Be Yourself. I, I enjoy your work and you're one of my favorite people to follow on LinkedIn and I but I when I read the premise of the book I thought, well, this is, this is contrarian and kind of mean spirited, but I really liked your book and I really appreciated it. So I just wanted to start off.
- [02:17]
B
By saying that, well, let me say first I hope that we recorded that because it's one of the nicest things I've heard in a long time. And honestly, as an author and writer, my main hope, but it's mostly sort of wishful thinking, is that somebody who doesn't agree with an argument reads the book and either changes their mind or sees a different perspective. And I would say it happens maybe 0.1% of the times. So then there's people, if you're lucky enough, people buy the book, maybe they read it, maybe not. But usually you're preaching to the choir. It's like yeah, yeah, yeah, and you give them ammunition to reinforce what they believed already and then you know, it's okay if they read it and disagree and then you Learn to. But, you know. So thank you for saying that, and it's very kind.
- [03:09]
A
You changed my mind. I mean, I had some beefs. I have to tell you one crazy thing. So we were at Thinkers50 together. And you mentioned that your experience of going to university as an undergraduate in Argentina was a Marxist. Was a participation in a Marxist system. And you went to study Lacanian psychoanalysis, which. That's a whole other thing. But as I was reading the book, I thought that perhaps your very astute comments on how our obsession with authenticity is actually. Maybe narcissism and extreme self interest could be rooted in the fact that you grew up in a more collectivist society versus a lot of Americans who we just love to think about ourselves.
- [04:04]
B
Yeah, there might be a bit of that. And it's interesting. I still think of myself as a kind of academics. So when. I mean, now I'm used to people saying, okay, relate. How does that relate to your story? And, you know, how, you know. Which is fine. I find it a bit uncomfortable to talk about myself in general. But also I have this delusion that if you're an academic, here's the reference, here's the evidence, and, you know, take it or leave it. And you know that you're being somewhat objective. But I think you're right. And, yes, research is me search to some degree. Maybe there is another dimension at play, which is that as part of this very interesting, intense and emotional and, you know, intellectual, albeit a bit futile and unpragmatic experience that I had studying psychoanalysis and Lacanian psychoanalysis, I found myself in the middle of a cult. And so I'm a little bit alert because it's like, you know, the university was free. But in order to become a psychoanalyst, you had to be in therapy yourself and become a patient. So it was like a herbalife inverted kind of pyramid scheme, you know? And then I was like, hold on. So to make it, you have to, in the exams, repeat verbatim what Freud and Lacan said. And it was an assessment of how possessed and immersed in that cult you were. And then in order to make it as a therapist, you have to pay to go to private study rooms and be in therapy with somebody. The Hurricane was like, somebody who knew Lacan, somebody who went to his funeral, somebody who knew somebody who knew him, somebody who knew somebody who knew somebody who went to the funeral and so forth. So I think I am a little bit allergic. And my contrarian kind of skepticism comes from, like, if I detect something that becomes ironically, an inauthentic BS movement. I try to scrutinize it. And I think, you know, as I say in the book, like, where does the authenticity cult originate? I mean, from the west coast of America and la, the least authentic culture in the world. You're in Boston, so you're kind of, you know, I lived in, but you lived there. And so, you know, maybe there's a little bit of that sort of like emotional undercurrent to what I think otherwise is a defensible argument through data and science.
- [06:17]
A
I think that makes sense. Anyway, it was interesting because that I had just heard from you, you gave such a wonderful, colorful. You said, I didn't. I don't know what I learned at university, but I learned a lot about dealing, you know, going in Argentina, what I would assume was a very tumultuous time to this free university. So different than my kids who are applying, you know, who are in high school, heading to American University, where it's literally survival of the fittest. I mean, you would run over neighbor if it gave you a 5% chance better of getting into, you know, NYU. So it's very different.
- [06:52]
B
But what's interesting is also the similarities between both systems because there's still an algorithm to make it. And interestingly, that algorithm is actually not as attached to learning as we would think. In one, it's like in your case, it's higher sat, higher GRE or higher GMAT than your competitors. So therefore, maybe you will run them over or kind of put something, sleeping tablets or something when you're out so that they can revise or turn up for the exam. And in the case of sort of like Marxist free state education in Argentina, it is demonstrating that you are a loyal Marxist, Lacanian or Freudian ambassador and that you are fighting against capitalism, which is also, like, very unintellectual because it's not about sort of learning or engaging critical thinking. You know, and that was the point. It's like, wouldn't it be nice if universities demonstrated that they are developing or helping people improve their curiosity, their integrity, their critical thinking, all the things that we agree are good in leadership context and also to be a good follower or employee. And yet, you know, there they are, there they are.
- [08:05]
A
So let's just start with a premise and you open this up yourself. You say there are many benefits to being perceived as authentic at work, and you sort of hint that people who view themselves as living authentically are happier, but you say that we shouldn't be unabashedly authentic. So why and what Is the right balance? Because we do feel good if we feel like we are living truer to ourselves.
- [08:37]
B
Yeah, so this is a great question because you would get two dimensions, right, of authenticity. The self perceived and then the other perceived. And you know, let's start by acknowledging that that's all you have. There isn't like an objective metric. You know, maybe Elon Musk will succeed with neuralink and then we'll have AI in our brains and it will tell us, okay, Mora is now being genuine or authentic. Hopefully not. Hopefully we won't get to that. Right. And also if that worked, it would probably show what decades of social psychological research shows, which is actually we bullshit ourselves all the time. So, you know, even ruthlessly psychopathic or narcissistic people probably see themselves or saw themselves as nice human beings. And so, you know, so. But let's work with what we have, which is those both kind of angles, the self reported authenticity, which I think is very, very valuable or has a lot of valuable kind of elements. So let's start with the work implications. You're much more likely to be engaged and to some degree a high performer, and less likely, significantly less likely to burn out or experience alienation if you identify with your work Persona. In other words, if you look at your professional self, the you that is, you know, ex worker or an ex company, and you see, you know, it kind of makes sense. This is part of my identity. So that's great. And much shows that we've advanced a long way compared to like 100 years ago where it was like Marxist alienation, assembly line workers, fact for everybody. You know, nobody would have returned from a busy day at the factory and complained to their spouse that they didn't experience the highest sense of calling or that, you know, nobody would have been nudged to quit their job or quietly quit their job because, oh, you know, their values are not unleashed or fulfilled at work. So that's good. There's a downside to that as well. I mean, extreme identification with your work Persona is a very highly risky endeavor. Right? So if everything there is to your identity is to be an IBMer or an Amazoner or an investment banker or a surgeon, and then you experience some drawbacks or some losses or some failures like your, I mean, look at societies where to, you know, anxious achieving societies, Japan, South Korea, I mean, you know, suicide rates are really high even when people fail to get promoted, et cetera. So, you know, it's important to understand, I think this speaks to your expertise and your podcast, that there is a Downside there. Also, it probably harms critical thinking, right? Because you extend this and it's like if you need to feel, if in order to feel a sense of belonging and identify with your work Persona, your employer needs to take all your values and core beliefs. You know, look at where we are right now. I mean, CEO advocacy and leadership advocacy is so delicate because if leaders and executives don't say anything about Gaza, the Middle East, Ukraine, climate change, diversity, et cetera, they're called cowards. And if they do, they please some, but alienate others. You know, so I think we have unrealistic expectations. Now the second part I like even more, which is what my focus has been over my kind of professional career. Like how authentic you are in the eyes of others is, I think, more important because we all get hired, fired, demoted, promoted, not based on what we think of ourselves. Even though self perceptions can be self fulfilling. So if you think of yourself as a stable genius, you're more likely to persuade other people that you're a stable genius, that if you think of yourself as like a normal person who needs to learn what to do, which is kind of more realistic. So how authentic you are in the eyes of others is important. As a colleague, people don't like to think that they're interacting with a phony or a fraud or a politician. And if you want to lead others, it's really important that people see you as genuine and that they think that they have a connection with you. Now, as it turns out, the people who are seen as authentic by others are people who are liked or respected as others. They tend to have high status, they're attractive, they're competent, and they embody the values that followers have. But more importantly, the people who are seen as authentic leaders actually have high emotional intelligence. They pay a great deal of attention to how others see them. And they may or not identify with the word Persona, but their professional self has become so curated that it comes across as genuine. You know, so that's the paradox, right, that in order to be seen as authentic, especially as a leader, you almost have to be a method actor. You almost have to be like, you know, it's impossible to know, by the way, if Obama is more authentic than Trump or vice versa. You know, their followers find both of them authentic, but I would guess that they're not exactly the same when they're at home with their wives and family, you know, but actually what is probably likely is that they're spending most of their time in their professional Persona. And so they are in character all the time. And you know, that is very different from the mainstream view of authenticity, which is like, just be yourself. Don't worry about what people think of you. And I think when I coach leaders, it's the same. When you're coaching leaders, you're trying to coach them on EQ and trying to help them develop new adaptations and new social skills and display them in a way that seems credible, you know, which is the opposite of saying, oh, hi, you're amazing, I love you in a way that is very fake, you know, but also as the oppos saying you suck, I can't stand you. And like just, you know, like. So that difference between the unfiltered version of you and being seen as authentic is really important because it requires a lot of social skills, a lot of EQ and a lot of impression management.
- [14:53]
A
So much. And you even say that there's really no point in differentiating between EQ and impression management because they essentially produce the same results. Can you define for the audience what impression management is and why it's so important?
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B
Yeah, so impression management is the both the willingness and ability to adjust your behavior to meet the demands of the situation. And you know, in American culture language, this is like, oh my God, you're like mindless sheep, you know, fraud, phoning it. But actually, you know, we all do it and do it most of the time. You can be aware of it or not. But it's like most behavioral dispositions, this is a normally distributed trait, which means that people differ. That's the interesting part of personality and kind of variety is the spice of life. So you have people who are. Most people are average, which means that when they are maybe at home or with their spouse or girlfriend, boyfriend, they relax and they walk around and they're used underwear and use their partner's toothbrush even though it's gonna make them grumpy. But it's just me. And it's too late now if you want to file for divor divorce, okay. But otherwise. But when they are traveling on a vacation with their best friends, they also, they're in low pressure situations or low situational press environment. So, you know, they can behave in a relaxed manner without much consideration for what other people think of it. But then these people, the majority of people also, if they go to a job interview or they have to give a client presentation or they're up for promotion or they have to talk to their boss, they know that they're still going to be themselves whatever they do, but they're going to Try to be themselves on a good day. And then you have the extremes. You have people at the high end who are really trying constantly to manage impressions. And that again, could be bad if they're not very good at it. But it could be good in the sense that if they listen more than they talk, if they show empathic concern for somebody else, and I mean, people who are seen as rewarding to deal with in the workplace usually have high EQ and are high or sophisticated impression managers. And then you have people at the other extreme which tend to be people either in a position of power. So, you know, if you own your own social media platform and you are the richest man in the world, you can get high and smoke weed and tell people whatever you want, probably nothing will happen to you. But if most normal people or average citizens as well try to replicate that behavior with their boss, they're going to get fired if they try to replicate it in an interview, they're not going to get hired and so on. So this normal distribution is interesting. We all have the power and the capacity to perfect it or to relax it. And I think if you take work as an example, when you just join an organization and it's your first day or your first few weeks at work, you're going to probably be in high alert and high impression management mode. Like when you visit a new country, you're going to try to read what the cultural norms are to fit in, right? And after you're there for a couple of years, you probably find your clique or your kind of in group with whom you can share intimate aspects of your life and maybe they become friends and maybe after 10 or 15 years there, you're institutionalized and you know, you don't know any other way to behave. Your behavior is the norm, right? And you are a cultural ambassador or a dinosaur. And so it's interesting to see that even within an individual there are faces and instances for more or less authenticity. And impression management is basically the reverse of it, if you like. But what's important is that every situation calls for certain aspects of ourselves to be displayed. And that doesn't mean that you have to be afraid. So for example, there is a me as a father, me as a partner, me as a soccer player, me as a, you know, failed or wannabe musician, me as a movie enthusiast, and me as sort of like political enthusiast. I don't have to express all of these aspects of myself when I'm with a client, when I'm with my boss, or when I'm with My team. I mean, some people do, and they look like, you know, Steve Carell at the, in the office or David Brent. Right. And it's funny to watch, but unbearable to work for. And then you have the others that might actually want to kind of keep a big, big distance and gap between their professional and private self, which includes, by the way, people who are part of the out, part of the out group and diverse or minority individuals. So the thought that we should invite them to bring their whole self and they're gonna want to do it is a bit of an assumption. You know, it doesn't always work like that.
- [19:46]
A
No, it doesn't. But let me ask you the question, and you do address this in your book, but this show, in addition to being for anxious achievers and people who, you know, manage anxiety, I have a lot of listeners who are neurodivergent. I have a lot of listeners who are different. And that's my particular area of study is leaders who have different brains. So you may be saying this and they may be hearing, well, he's just telling me to mask my whole life. I can't do that. I have to be myself. And so I think that while we all understand you can't bring your whole self to work, there are people, there are some of us who we struggle sometimes it's a high cost for us to not be ourselves at certain times. And so what's the answer?
- [20:42]
B
It's a great question. And I would say, like, you know, really that whatever you do and whoever you are, you will always be you. So, you know, it's even like this assumption that you can be more you or less. It's actually sort of like an artificial construction or misconception because you are the sum of everything you do. And that's who you are, you know. Now, as it turns out, we play ourselves tricks and sometimes when we don't like how we behave, we say, oh, that wasn't really me, you know, and when we like the behavior, we're like, this really is me. But that's sort of like a rationalization. It's part of what you call self enhancement. Now, it is true that there is a whole spectrum of sort of, like, if you like, social skills, social aptitudes. And I'm going to focus on sort of like the autism Asperger spectrum to pick one that is very, very highly researched, right? And as Simon Baron Cohen's work has illustrated, the less famous but still very successful cousin of Sacha Baron Coyne, professor at Cambridge University, came up with this really really interesting kind of finding and framework that says actually you can divide people again a normal distribution of spectrum. Just like you have people with like Obama, like and probably even like Trump like ability to seem like themselves even if they are in a high stakes situation and manage impressions very well. Because I think they can control exactly what impact they make on others. Even when we don't like it. It's they're preaching to catering to their crowd. You have at the other extreme, people who suffer from severe manifestations of autism and who are basically from a very early neurodevelopmental disorders are a real thing. And people you don't develop theory of mind and capacity to empathize and then you have everything in the middle right now. But I do think also first I think workplaces have become a lot more pro social and civilized and accommodating to people who are at various points of the spectrum. You know, it's a lot easier to be neuro atypical I think because we're all diverse, unique diversity neuro typical employment prospects are far greater now than they have been before. And that, that speaks to workplaces and work cultures becoming fairer and more meritocratic and also more inclusive. Even when we are at a kind of a detour right now saying oh, we shouldn't care about that, but it's still the case. So I think that we can still be accommodating to people's capacity. And I think that the will or the intent maybe matters more than the capacity because you have people with great social skills who are happy being jerks and you have people with limited, let's say empathy, empathy or emotional intelligence who are really nice people and have pro social tendencies. And so I think, you know, if anything, you know, you don't judge the actual behaviors or the outcomes in the same manner when you have people who don't have the same capacity. But what you can still judge is the intent. And I think by the way, wherever you are in the spectrum, you can work on how you present and you can become more aware of how you impact others. You know, so I guess the, the, the short is that understanding that at some point the right to be you ends and your obligation to others begins can happen for the vast majority of people.
- [24:24]
A
That's so interesting. I mean I would say that a lot of the people that I work with are you know, they're really in that middle where they, they can pass, right? They might be on the spectrum or they might have raging ADHD or you know, a learning difference or like me, they have mental illness, but they can absolutely pass. But it still does come at a cost. And there is a piece that is like, oh, if I could just like be myself a little bit more. So, so, but, but they, but they get punished at work too.
- [24:55]
B
Yeah. And I think, you know that that angle is also important, the personal cost. It's of course it's always easier to behave impulsively, spontaneously and not be aware of that. Right. And I think, I mean before we were talking about eq, emotional labor was a really widely researched topic. And if you look at it, it's interesting because it was a topic we didn't have this interest in. Neurodiversity wasn't a concept and neuro atypical individuals weren't the subject of even scientific research back then that much, especially vis a vis the workplace. But emotional labor was studied in the customer service profession and in like nurses and usually women who were waitresses. Right. In the 50s and 60s. And it's like people said, look, service with a smile comes at a personal cost. And that is true. Actually, even if you look at executives today, women are under far higher pressure to conform and fit. And so even though mostly they have higher levels of emotional intelligence, they also burn out more and feel extra higher levels of anxiety and pressure because they're not given the same license to be themselves. Like basically, truly the invitation to just be yourself and bring your whole self to work and authentic is really only extended to people who resemble the status quo or are the status quo. Right. And by the way, so I, I don't disagree that with neurodiversity it's a big thing, but it's also a big thing with gender. And you know, women are the out group even though there's more of them in the world and at workplace than men. And still it's also a thing with having unusual political views or being, you know, culturally different. And it's massively a thing with social class.
- [26:57]
A
Absolutely.
- [26:58]
B
So it's a bit hypocritical and ironic that we're saying to people who are the algara, but you're right and we have to measure like the cost also to the individual in doing so. Now what I will say is that there's this other category of people who aren't on the spectrum and are in typical universe, but who might say, well, you know, I am excitable and I have a temporary issue. You, so this is just me. Screw you. You know, so is that okay or not? And what about people who are extremely arrogant and who think they are the smartest people. So all I'm saying is that there are so many exceptions to the rule that, you know, just being yourself is good. And that at some point, like, if you actually feel the freedom to act in whatever way you are because you're not concerned by others, others might pay a price, you know, or the cost is transferred to others.
- [28:00]
A
We've all had that boss felt free to ruin our.
- [28:03]
B
And it's usually the boss, right? And, you know, and then like, you know, I think just even like on the cognitive diversity side of things, it's like super interesting, right? Like, bring yourself to work. I mean, what if I'm a fascist? Should I bring it as, like. Probably not. What if I'm a communist? Probably not either. What if I'm a sexist? Yeah. Okay, so can I see the list of exceptions? And then what we're left is like, if you look like the people in charge or like those they like, by all means, bring yourself. Otherwise, just fit in, you know, I.
- [28:35]
A
Mean, I think the crux of what you're actually trying to say is that it's bad advice. You know that. So I guess my question is, what do you think was the original intent behind bring your whole self to work? It wasn't a bad intention. I don't know actually anything about where this movement started. If you've listened to this show and heard from many of the leaders and experts that we've had on, you know, the really important role that psychiatry and medication can play when you're managing a mental health condition or a diagnosis. And it's hard to find a psychiatrist these days, right? It can be really challenging when you need medication support. Talkiatry was built just for that. It's virtual psychiatry that actually fits your life and your insurance. Therapy is really wonderful. I am pro therapy. But sometimes you need psychiatric care with licensed clinicians, right? This means that they can diagnose and prescribe medication if it's right for you. Tochiatry is a hundred percent online psychiatry practice, and it provides comprehensive evaluations, diagnoses, and ongoing medication management for conditions like adhd, anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, ocd, PTSD, and more. Unlike therapy only apps, tochiatry is psychiatry. And that means you're seeing a medical provider who can diagnose mental health conditions and prescribe medication if it's appropriate. So if tochiatry sounds like a great solution after all, you can do it from your home. And all of their 600 plus clinicians are in network with major insurers. So you can use your existing insurance. Just head to toky.com achiever and complete the short assessment to get matched with an in network psychiatrist in just a few minutes. Head to tokchiatry.com achiever and complete the short assessment to get matched with an in network psychiatrist in just minutes. 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- [34:54]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I have an uncut version of my book, which, as usual, the editor kind of chopped half of it, right? But, you know, at some point, which had, like, the philosophical roots to authenticity, and they're really, really interesting. I mean, the short version of it is that with the rise of humanism and the enlightenment and when modernity arrives, you know, we basically kill God, as Nietzsche said. And like, you know, basically, we are the center of the universe. Humans are the source of meaning. We start to harness and develop and embrace science. And we think that we are in this position where all meaning comes from us, right? That also gives rise to individualism, and that also gives rise to a lot of positive things, which is sort of like we go from aristocratic environments or monarchic environments to more democratic or liberal environments. In essence, nobody can tell you who you are and how to be. It's up to you to decide that, which is a wonderful thing. I mean, it's Much better than being especially a peasant in medieval times, right? I mean, before, if you were part of the aristocratic elite, it's fine. But for everybody else, things have gotten better. And if you think about Marxist worst nightmare of capitalist alienation, that's what this is trying to optimize against. Or that's what this is trying to be, an alternative from nothing worse than the alienated worker who clocks in and out in the factory and doesn't care. And for them, meaning and life start at the pub or with the family or the community. Now, as it turns out, at some point, this sort of, like, authenticity movement gets hijabed by the consumer society, you know, in sort of like early 20th century. And then the issue is like, okay, you can be anything you want, so you are what you shop, or you are what your career is, or you are. And then you go from, like, forms of repression because we no longer have people telling us what to do, to actual forms of depression because, oh, if I could be anything I want, and I could be Elon Musk or Steve Jobs or Oprah and Donald Trump, but I'm actually unemployed. Shit, I have to blame myself, you know, and so, you know, so there is a kind of. I think the intent was good, but there is also an unintended cynical outcome on this, which is that, first of all, if all meaning comes from us, it's a very vulnerable and feeble position to be in, because at some point, you know, you're gonna realize that there is no meaning and you make it up, you know, and for a neurotic person, that's a, you know, classic sort of, like, source of anxiety. And, you know, that's just a Tuesday. Frankly, though, just Tuesday afternoon. Exactly. Or Monday, if you like, because it's like Monday blues or Sunday evenings. And if the alternative is that you think you are the most altruistic person in the world or Napoleon or God, well, then you're psychotic. And, you know, you might see meaning, but that's it. And then on the other hand, I think in the last couple of decades, with the consumerization of work and marketing, like first workplaces as adult Disneyland environment, come here and you have, like, sushi chef and free foot massage, and we do your laundry, and you can go with a scooter from one part to the other in the office. It's like Disneyland for others. This idea is that you have to identify so much with your Persona that you never want to leave the office, which is obviously a very smart way to make people work as hard as possible. Without pointing a gun to them because you want to be this employee, an employee is you. And then of course, if you take that even further than when we get to this kind of like slightly, I think, problematic environment, work becomes like the only source of meaning. And it's almost like your career and your employer. It's almost like a cult, you know, where you have to think like everybody else and you have to, you know, it's not enough to perform highly. You have to embrace your work Persona and extract like spiritual fulfillment out of it, which is nice, but for most people this is an impossibility.
- [39:27]
A
So the. Okay, I have two questions. So it's really sort of a tool of end stage capitalism where your need to identify with your workplace is so great that you don't create any boundaries. But what about all the data around belonging? And when we feel belonging at work, we perform better. Is it possible to be self edited and feel belonging, especially if you're a member of an out group?
- [39:59]
B
Yeah. And so again, it's all about the nuance, which usually doesn't sell. Right. So you know, we like, we, we, we love especially sort of like psychological, social, organizational, psychological compass concepts either become good or bad. And so belonging is good, engagement is good, authenticity is good, EQ is good. But okay, you know, so yeah, of course I, I am a big fan of the, the notion that, I mean, first I think it's inclusivity or, you know, inclusive workplaces are those that create the condition whereby people from very different backgrounds and walks of life actually face the same conditions to succeed and the same barriers and that, you know, wouldn't it be wonderful to feel as included or that you belong, whether you're black, Latino, white, Asian, whether you're rich or poor, whether you're a Democrat or a Republican, whether, you know, and then if you continue that, you actually realize that, you know, it's an aspiration. It doesn't happen that often, but we need to try to do this because otherwise you can't have diversity. You know, diversity without inclusiveness backfires and doesn't work. Likewise, it's better to be engaged than disengaged. And William Kahn, who coined the term employee engagement in 1990 in a very obscure paper, actually defined it as the degree of psychological identification with your work Persona. So you have two hypothetical workers and one identifies with the work Persona. They're likely going to be enthusiastic at work and engaged and more likely to perform and vice versa. But the nuance is important because the correlations between engagement and performance are like 0.3 which means that there's 9% overlap, which means that a lot of the high performing people won't be very engaged and won't feel a sense of belonging and they're going to be fine having other sources of meanings. And also a lot of people who love the workplace and others might not be that productive, you know, so I.
- [42:09]
A
Think they're culture keep. I can't tell you how many times I love it. They don't do a very good job, but they're culture keepers so I can't fire them.
- [42:16]
B
Exactly. They're not riding the bus and they're not kind of directing but they're singing songs at the back. So we want to keep them. Right. So yeah, you know, so I think that's why the nuance is important. And by the way, you know, to your point, it is absolutely possible to feel a sense of belonging and be engaged and perform highly but keep certain aspects of yourself to yourself, not bring your whole self to work and also self edit strategically engage in strategic self presentation. In fact, you know, whatever happened to smiling to your boss and bitching about them when you get home? It worked for millennia and it's still the way to maintain a tolerant and civilized pro social environment.
- [43:01]
A
I think that a huge amount of the, I'm sure you hear this as well, doing what you do. The anxiety and angst of older workers and younger workers is that older workers feel that young people are too honest.
- [43:14]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [43:16]
A
They don't respect the social contract where you're sort of not supposed to tell me how much I bother you or how annoyed you are or blah blah, blah.
- [43:26]
B
Yeah. And you know, at the risk of sounding like a grumpy old, middle aged white male, I, you know, I, I hate, I hate to bring kind of the age factor here, but it is true. You know, Jean Twenga's research shows that. And it's not about generation, it's like, well, it's not specific generations. But over the past 100 years she tracked sort of like, sort of like not age but generational levels of entitlement, narcissism, work ethic and it's trending in the wrong direction. You know, I always say like now Kim and Kanye might seem like, you know, emblematic of a narcissistic sort of role model society. If it continues to go like that in 50 years time, we will look back at Kim and Kanye and say, oh, they seem quite modest, you know, very low key. Like now looking at Marlin or Elvis or you know, some kind of like even Muhammad Ali. Now I do think that. So younger people, first millennials, then Gen Z and maybe the next year there's a concerning increase of aspirations that isn't coupled with an increase in work ethic, which is what entitlement means. If you think you should be a CEO, leader, founder, billionaire, but you don't actually want to work for it because you think you deserve it, right, it's gonna lead to entitled narcissism. And also these people are exposed to all these arguments. Just be you, be yourself. In an interview, I think I tell the story in a book of somebody who used to work in my team and turned up for his performance review wearing a T shirt that says said just be you. They will adjust. And you know, lovely guy, great performer. And because I had a, a good relationship with him and I said, like, can we first talk about your T shirt? You know, I think there's either one or two options. Either you're the only person in the world who works this, wears this T shirt and the rest of the world revolves around you and we all kind of are satellites of you in the center of the universe, or we should all wear this T shirt and then we can't have a highly functioning work environment or system. We just have chaos and anarchy.
- [45:41]
A
But why can't we. Let me just push you there. Why, if we're all ourselves, but we all also are bought in to the ethos of the team, why can't we all function?
- [45:51]
B
Because inevitably, you know. Well, let me speak for myself. My whole self includes grumpy me, sort of like narrow minded me, opinionated me, unempathetic me, impulsive me. And I can tell you if I try to be a good manager, not self editing or kind of self censoring, that I would not be able to achieve it. Maybe there are people, you know, so maybe I'm in the category of people that you describe, but I think the majority of people have certain aspects that need to be kept in check. You know, our personality inevitably will include some more and less desirable verses even, I think, I think for romantic relationships and marriages and you know, sort of like thinking about your personal partner, you will probably need to sometimes understand the tension between giving your honest view and telling people something that they want to hear.
- [46:58]
A
We lie all the time. I mean, we lie all the time because some things are worth tearing down and some things aren't.
- [47:06]
B
Exactly. And it's precisely to preserve that harmony. Right? Like if I'm your work colleague and I screwed up, up in my presentation and I Come and say, oh my God, that was terrible. You know, you could tell me, yes, it was terrible and you should have prepared more and I told you. Or you could say it wasn't so bad. You know, it's, it's going to be fine because I'm asking for a little bit of validation and appreciation. And that's the thing, you know, you what it's not about being. If you do that, it's not like you will be a fraud or a phony or a fake think. It's more that you prioritize long term team cohesion and my feelings to the easiest thing, which will be. And even if you look at. So I'm gonna be on Kim Scott's Radical Candor podcast in a few weeks, which was interesting because she reacted initially negatively to something that I had said because, you know, well, she said I had misinterpreted like the whole point and notion of cultures of radical transparency. You know, and I was quoting Ray Dalio who even says in his TED Talk, well, you know, we call it as it is and we never sugarcoat it and we never engage in like white lies, but if your colleague just had a baby and returned from maternity leave and shows you a picture of their newborn, you're not going to say, oh, that's an ugly baby. You know, and that's exactly on point. There's still, even if you have, if you dial up the license to engage in critical displays of like being almost brutally honest, you still probably going to have some boundaries, some parameters. You know, there's this great quote by Karl Popper that I love, which is that if you want to have a tolerant society, you have to be intolerant to intolerance. And that's really important. And it works for the workplace as well because, you know, at some point you have to censor some behaviors, even if they're honest, because they might hurt team cohesiveness or team cohesion. Exactly. And I wrote the article I wrote recently with Amy Edmondson about how actually if you want to drive psychological safety in your team, it's not anything goes and people can just be themselves. But you have to actually put in place some rules, some parameters, and then within that make sure that people understand that they're free to speak up if it's in the interest of enhancing team performance, morale and innovation. All that. That's very different from like, oh, I'm just going to be myself.
- [49:36]
A
I think that's just to come back to the people who are sort of managing neurodivergence. Or things that might seem too different. I think that that was actually very helpful because I think that we all love structure and we all love guidelines. And so to me, when I read that article, I thought, yeah, you know, it's almost like having a core set of beliefs, of ground rules and there's flexibility on the margins if we can show up for each other in these ground rules.
- [50:07]
B
Exactly. And let's not forget that if I am managing a team that has neurodiverse individuals, it's especially important for me to learn to act and behave in ways that might not be natural, you know, because I would have. It's especially important that I understand where the right to be my usual self ends and my obligation to others begins. And I think fairness is not treating everybody in the same way, but as they deserve to be treated. And that's really a big distinction, you know. And that's true whether you have people who are neurodiverse, neuro, atypical or just humans. You know, is annoying, messy, annoying, messy, needy. And you know, if you said oh my God, this person is obnoxious and now I have to buy, I will cancel my one on one meeting. You know, it's the easy thing to want to do, but you have to customize, you have to personalize and you have to meet people where they want to be met and where they deserve to be met as well.
- [51:04]
A
Yeah, I think that's really important to remember. It's a two way street, you know, as we close out, I want to talk a little bit about. About reputation. You spend a lot of time on reputation. Why is it so important to be aware of our reputation? And how do we actually become aware of our reputation? Talk us through. If you were coaching someone, what would you, what would you instruct them to do? There's a lot more to your business than what you actually sell. Your business identity is everything that shows what your business is about. From what customers see to what they don't see, like operating agreements and compliance paperwork. And yes, if you're going to be successful, you need these things. Get more for your business. More privacy, more guidance and more free resources. To start and scale with Northwest Registered Agent. They've been helping small business owners and entrepreneurs launch and grow businesses for nearly 30 years. They are the largest registered agent and LLC service in the US with over 1500 corporate guides. And these are real people who know your local laws and can help you and your business every step of the way. And trust me, you're going to need that. So build your complete business identity fast with Northwest Registered Agent and get access to thousands of free resources, the forms you need and step by step guides even without creating an account. And with Northwest, privacy is automatic. So don't wait, protect your privacy, build your brand and get your complete business Identity in just 10 clicks and 10 minutes. Visit northwestregisteredagent.comAchiever free and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered agents agent@northwestregisteredagent.com Achiever Free. Are you ready to take your business's marketing to the next level? Meet Brevo, the all in one marketing and CRM platform built to help you connect with customers, boost engagement and grow your business smarter. With Brevo you can manage all your customer interactions in one place, nurture leads with their built in CRM, reach your audience through email and SMS us and keep them coming back with powerful automations. But here's where it gets really cool. Aura is Brevo's AI assistant and Aura helps you craft smarter campaigns by suggesting personalized content, optimizing send times and even analyzing performance data to help you improve your strategy in real time. It's like having a marketing expert on your team 24 7. And of course Brevo offers advanced analytics, seamless integrations and AI driven personalization which is everything you need to create multi channel campaigns that hit the mark every time. Get started for free today or use code ACHIEVER50 to save 50% on starter and standard plans for the first three months of an annual subscription. Just head to brevo.com achiever and take your marketing further with Brevo and Aura.
- [54:29]
B
Well, so on the pragmatic and maybe least sort of like social, socially desirable or socially accepted part of the answer because it sounds like oh, reputation and management, you're a politician, a Machiavellian kind of, you know, like. And there's a reason why politics, political skill and politician are all the same route, right? But to start with that maybe less accepted part, it's still the case that your career success, your promotability, your employability, your you know, the earning potential, however you want to define your career success, it probably requires other people to appreciate you or parts of you. And that means, you know, working on your reputation, you know, then I would say that if you want to align your work self with your identity or your work self or your personal self, if you want to experience all the benefits of authenticity, engagement, belonging, et cetera, and I think in general, if you want to not just achieve meaningless objective success that you don't care because, you know, what's the point of being good at something you don't care about? Right? I think, you know, mostly what we want is for our aspirational self to be seen by others. You know, and in fact, I think there's no better validation for our aspirational selves than having other people. So, for example, if I think that I'm very, very funny, but nobody agrees, you know, it's like, okay, I'm gonna be left in a corner of the room and everybody's gonna be making fun of me, maybe gonna be accidentally funny, but if I want to be a standup comedian or funny, and I, I have people saying, you are funny, you know, so baselining your reputation is really about knowing how you're seen. And if you don't like how you're seen. Bingo.
- [56:31]
A
Then how do you know how you're seen?
- [56:32]
B
Okay, and that's the last part of your question, which is like, feedback from others who are not your mom or your, you know, care or your best friends, but often your parents or your friends, you know, they feel more comfortable telling you what you need to hear and not what you want to hear. One of the ironies of workplaces becoming more pro social and nicer is that, you know, like, fake positive feedback is the norm. Like social media, and we won't even talk about that. But go to people who know you, who have expertise in your desired area of competence or talent, and who don't have a significant incentive to lie to you, but they can be honest. Also ask the question in a way that makes it easier for them to provide you with critical feedback. So I would say, like, what would you have done in my place in this presentation? How could I have done it better compared to most people, you know, how would you rate myself of sense of humor? Do you think I'm a funny person? And so on. In a normal world, I spend a lot of my time, time, professional time creating psychometric assessments and 360 surveys and personality assessment. In a normal world, they wouldn't need to exist because every leader would be able to crowdsource feedback on the reputation organically and from a. And I once coached an executive who said, oh, you speak very highly of 360. But personally, I didn't have very good experiences with that. So what else would you recommend? You know, which is like a red flag in itself, right? So, you know, and obviously coaching is, is a good. And coaching that involves peer ratings and upward feedback and all of this. So, you know, I use this famous quote by David Bowie, who, when asked who he really was because he was famous for reinventing his artistic Persona and going from one style to the other, you know, who are you, really? Was the question. And he said, I'm only the person. The greatest number of people, people think I am. Which sounds like, oh, my God, but who is Siri? Well, that's as good as it gets. You know, when we die, our reputation will be crowdsourced or, you know, kind of dispersed in all the people who knew us and know us. And they will come to our funeral to finish on a happy note and talk about different aspects of ourselves. And we will realize that some of us, some of them knew certain parts of us and others. Others. Yeah, you know, and I think that's just life. And so, you know, you can choose to bury your head under the sun and live like an ostrich and, you know, be the hero in your own mind, or you can look outside. The most beautiful thing about self awareness is that it's actually interpersonal. You are self aware if you understand how people see you and if you're able to internalize the views that other people have on you. That's. That's how it works, you know. Or you can pursue the intrapsychological route and do like the Beatles and check into an ashram in India and experiment with psychedelics, or be a hipster in New York, Louisiana, Boston, and check into an ayahuasca retreat in Costa Rica, and maybe you will find yourself or maybe you will lose yourself. But that's escapism for everybody else. The best way to understand who we are is to really be aware of our reputation at work.
- [59:53]
A
Wow. It was Maya Angelou who said, the most important thing is how you make people feel.
- [59:59]
B
Yes, exactly.
- [60:00]
A
And I can't tell you how many people I have met with bad depression, you know, who inside feel like getting out of bed is a struggle. And at their funerals or in their reviews, people say, oh, he's so wonderful. He's so warm, he's so empathetic. And, you know, you want to say, God, if you knew what this person went through every single day.
- [60:22]
B
Yeah. To achieve.
- [60:23]
A
Still make you again at a cost.
- [60:25]
B
And. Yeah. And I mean, you know, some of the. Some of the greatest leaders that I have coached or seen. Coach is like, you wouldn't know the amount of work that it took them to achieve. Creating a reputational version of their professional self that they're comfortable with as well. Right. So they, in a way, they kind of. They eliminate all these tensions and they navigate this. But my favorite quote on this is by Oscar Wilde. Some cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go. And, you know, I can tell you that the latter are typically more authentic than the former.
- [61:13]
A
Thomas, thank you so, so much.
- [61:15]
B
My pleasure. It's been fun.
- [61:21]
A
That's it for this week's show. If you like the show, follow us and tell your friends. And please leave us a review. It really helps the anxious achiever get found by people just waiting for our content. I'm your host, Mora Aarons. Mealy. Lots more to come in the next episode.