The Art of Manliness Podcast — Chasing the White Whale: Into the Depths of Moby-Dick

Date: October 21, 2025
Host: Brett McKay
Guest: Mark Torino, Professor of American Literature

Episode Overview

This engaging episode dives deep into Herman Melville's classic "Moby-Dick," unraveling its complex themes, iconic characters, and evolving legacy. Host Brett McKay, having rediscovered the novel in midlife, brings on Mark Torino—professor and Melville enthusiast—to help listeners see why this once-overlooked book now stands as a pillar of American literature. The conversation aims to inspire both newcomers and those who remember the book only from high school to revisit its pages for fresh insights into obsession, perception, leadership, and the human condition.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Melville’s Story & Moby-Dick’s Legacy

• Melville’s Status During & After His Time:
  • Melville was known for seafaring adventure books before Moby-Dick but wasn't recognized as a great novelist in his lifetime.
  • “When this book was published in 1851, people just weren’t ready for it...it wasn’t like Melville became this unimpeachable bard of American letters.” (Mark, 03:47)
  • The novel’s reputation grew in the 20th century, especially after Melville’s centennial and through the advocacy of scholars like Raymond Weaver.
  • The journey of "Moby-Dick" mimics that of "The Great Gatsby": both were ignored at first but crowned as great American novels decades after publication. (06:22)

2. What Makes Moby-Dick Stand Out

• Distinct Characters:

  • Ishmael: An imaginative, discursive, and insightful narrator.
  • Ahab: An enormous, obsessed, almost mythic captain.
  • The Whale: Both a literal and symbolic focal point of obsession.
  • “Triangulating these three unbelievable characters...creates such an alchemy, such power and mystery.” (Mark, 06:58)

• Narrative Structure & Intimidation Factor:

  • Dense, poetic, "baroque" writing; not the longest 19th-century novel, but demanding.
  • Frequent digressions, including pseudo-scientific whaling chapters, can frustrate or disengage some readers. (09:06)
  • Melville’s goal: to express everything about whales and whaling from every conceivable angle—scientific, philosophical, historical—which gives the book its daunting but rewarding complexity.

3. Themes: Free Will vs. Determinism & Objective vs. Subjective Reality

• Free Will & Determinism:
  • Ishmael feels "magnetically" drawn to the sea; Ahab believes Moby Dick intentionally targeted him.
  • "When do we act according to our own consciousness versus when do we act kind of programmatically?" (Mark, 14:54)
  • Reflected the societal questions of Melville’s era, particularly around the literal and figurative forms of slavery. “Who ain't a slave?” (Mark, quoting Melville, 17:03)
• Perception: Objective vs. Subjective:
  • "Doubloon" chapter as an inkblot test—characters project their own meanings onto the coin, emphasizing individual subjectivity.
  • Ahab’s solipsism: “Everything. Ahab, Ahab, Ahab. So it’s the greatest expression of solipsism and self obsession, self absorption, because Ahab sees himself in everything.” (Mark, 18:02)
  • Rejection of scientific objectivity is dramatized in the "quadrant scene" (21:25), where Ahab smashes his navigational instrument in favor of his will and instinct—both inspiring and cautionary.

4. Deep Dive on Characters

• Ishmael:
  • His opening, “Call me Ishmael,” establishes both an approachable and ambiguous narrative authority. (27:27)
  • Symbolically functions as Melville's stand-in—the poet, observer, and interpreter of experience.
  • His narrative stance is akin to Gatsby’s Nick Carraway: always “within and without.” (30:03)
• Queequeg:
  • Endearing because of his self-reliance and comfort in his own skin, a model of Emersonian “self-reliance.”
  • The “Monkey Rope” chapter illustrates the interconnectedness of all people—our mutual dependence.
  • "He has absolutely no embarrassment about his own actions...he’s completely at ease with who he is. I find that very inspirational." (Mark, 32:48)
• Ahab:
  • Embodiment of the tragic-hero/monomaniac/dictator archetype.
  • His passion and charisma sway the entire crew—even as it leads to their doom.
  • Dies impaled by his own harpoon—his violence turned against himself.
  • Symbolizes the dual-edged nature of obsessive leadership: "Nobody wants it as bad as he does... he overwhelms them." (Mark, 39:23)
  • Melville acknowledges the appeal and danger in such all-consuming passion. "There's a role for passion...but it's got to be harnessed in the right way." (Brett, 41:06)
  • Humanized in a scene of solitary reflection and a rare tear for his family, "there was more substance in that one teardrop than there was in the rest of the ocean combined..." (Mark, 41:06)

5. The White Whale as a Symbol

• Multiplicity of Meaning:
  • To Ahab: Moby Dick symbolizes all evil, all torment—"all that most maddens and torments..." (Mark quoting Ishmael, 43:28)
  • To Ishmael: The whale’s whiteness is a metaphysical void—a symbol of anxiety, indeterminacy, the blankness onto which we project fears and meanings.
  • "If you are an imaginative person...you kind of like can spiral out of control because it’s just blank." (Mark, 48:56)
• Symbols as Subjective:
  • The meaning of the whale (and symbols generally) shifts based on the beholder, a key point that Melville weaves throughout.

6. Memorable Sentences & Melville’s Universal Insights

• “Who ain’t a slave?” (17:03)—the universality and layers of human bondage.
• On perception: “Everything. Ahab, Ahab, Ahab.” (18:02)—Ahab’s solipsistic obsession.
• On fast and loose fish:
  • Metaphorically expands whaling laws to the human soul:
    • “What are the rights of man and the liberties of the world but loose fish?... What are you, reader, but a loose fish and a fast fish, too?” (Mark quoting Moby-Dick, 53:45)
• On existential anxiety:
  • “By its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe and thus stabs us from behind with a thought of annihilation when beholding the white depths of the Milky Way.” (Brett quoting Ishmael, 48:30)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Melville’s Rediscovery:
  • “You think of Moby Dick dropped down from the heavens as...sacred text. It really wasn’t that. It was discovered by some literature professor.” (Mark, 06:10)
• On Ahab’s Charisma:
  • “The passion of his leadership, his charisma, his magnetism, has overwhelmed everybody else on the Pequod, so that his doomed, insane mission becomes unanimous.” (Mark, 38:35)
• On Obsession’s Cost:
  • “[Ahab] is impaled by his own harpoon. And how symbolic is that? That what really ended up killing him was not necessarily the whale. It was his own violence toward the whale, got turned on himself.” (Mark, 37:22)
• On Universal Connectivity (Queequeg/Ishmael):
  • “Isn’t this just like every human being all across the world...we all depend on one another for survival. We just don’t see it on an everyday basis.” (Mark, 34:02)
• On Literary Structure (Fast Fish & Loose Fish):
  • “What are you fast to? What has already claimed you in ways that you might not even be aware of?” (Mark, 53:45)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Melville’s biography & Moby-Dick’s reception: 03:47–06:39
• What makes Moby-Dick unique/Intimidation factor: 06:58–11:13
• Why all the whaling digressions?: 11:13–14:19
• Major themes - Free will, Determinism: 14:54–17:03
• Objective vs. Subjective Truth (Doubloon, Quadrant): 18:00–23:48
• Ishmael’s narrative stance & meaning: 27:27–32:34
• Queequeg, self-reliance, interdependence: 32:34–35:31
• Ahab’s multifaceted character/leadership: 36:08–41:06
• White Whale symbolism & existential themes: 43:13–49:55
• The “truest sentence” in Moby-Dick (Fast Fish & Loose Fish): 50:19–53:45

Final Takeaways

The episode positions "Moby-Dick" not as a tedious school assignment, but as a vast, profound, transformative novel still relevant to modern questions of leadership, meaning-making, and personal obsession. From the “folksy yet shifty” Ishmael to the tormented grandeur of Ahab, Melville’s characters, language, and layered symbolism offer endless depths for exploration—highlighting, above all, the importance of balancing passion with perspective, and the power of seeing the world (and literature) anew.

Explore further:

• Mark Torino’s “One True Podcast” and “The Norton Library Podcast” (53:57)
• For detailed links and more resources, see the episode notes at AOM.