The Astrology Podcast: Ottoman Court Astrology

Host: Chris Brennan
Guest: Prof. Tunsh Shin
Date: June 11, 2025
Episode Theme:
An in-depth conversation about Professor Tunsh Shin’s new book, Forgotten Astrologers: Science and Authority in the Ottoman Empire, 1450–1600. The episode explores the lives, roles, and influence of astrologers at the Ottoman court, the institutional framework supporting their work, technical and social realities of their profession, and broader implications for understanding astrology's history.

Overview

This episode focuses on the important but often-overlooked role of astrologers within the Ottoman imperial court between the 15th and 16th centuries. Professor Shin shares his decade-long research, challenging “decline narratives” about astrology and science in the post-classical Islamic world, and drawing vivid comparisons with other periods and regions. The discussion covers the structure of court astrology in the Ottoman Empire, their professional training, rivalries and career trajectories, technical debates, interactions with rulers, and the lasting legacy of their institution.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Reframing the History of Islamic Astrology

[02:13–04:07]

• The dominant “decline narrative” suggests post-classical Islamic science lost energy after a supposed “golden age.”
• Prof. Shin challenges this, showing vibrant, evolving astrology in the 15th/16th centuries:

  “Astrology, unfortunately, has never been treated as an important scientific category... But I wanted to engage with whether we can speak about the flourishing of sciences in the so-called post-classical Islamic world, including the Ottomans.” [03:09, Prof. Shin]

Distinction vs. Overlap between Astrology and Astronomy

[04:07–07:30]

• Even in earlier eras, practitioners saw meaningful distinctions between astrology and astronomy, though lines were blurred.
• Some prominent figures were reluctant to practice astrology despite working in the mathematical sciences.

The Ottoman Bureaucratic Unit of Astrologers (Monadjim)

[08:52–11:41]

• By the 15th century, the Ottomans created a distinct, official court astrologers’ unit (Monadjim), akin to guilds of court physicians or architects.
• The unit typically included 1–6 astrologers, led by a chief, and lasted into the early 20th century.

  “The resilience of this unit is really significant. We really need to trace what really happened to this unit of court astrologers in that prolonged time period.” [09:26, Prof. Shin]

Parallels to Ancient Mesopotamia

[12:55–15:14]

• Chris draws parallels to Mesopotamian institutional astrology (colleges of astrologers), highlighting a recurring bureaucratic structure in elite societies.

Transmission of Astrological Knowledge

[15:14–16:33]

• No dedicated colleges (“school without walls”); knowledge often transmitted via family lineages or through mentorship within the unit.
• Religious schools (madrasas) rarely taught astrology but sometimes included astronomy.

Privileges & Resources of Court Astrologers

[17:48–19:48]

• Court astrologers enjoyed:
  • Access to costly instruments (astrolabes, celestial globes)
  • Royal libraries with rare manuscripts
  • Steady salaries and proximity to power
• Archival petitions reveal struggles for access to resources.

  “Being a court astrologer enables these people to have closer access to the instruments kept in the imperial treasury...” [18:33, Prof. Shin]

Unique Documentation & Historical Records

[19:48–22:49]

• The Ottoman archives are rich, allowing modern historians to know details like payment receipts, biographical data, and daily practices.

  “The Ottoman experience is sort of unique for the immense documentation it provided over the four centuries.” [21:59, Prof. Shin]

Electional Astrology & Practical Duties

[22:49–27:41]

• Electional astrology (choosing auspicious times) was a mainstay: for founding mosques, starting wars, weddings, appointments, etc.
• Example: Selim I postponed a campaign against Rhodes on astrologers’ advice:

  “The first three months don't look really good toward that purpose, so you'd better delay it.” [24:46, Prof. Shin]

• Sometimes, charts were cast after the fact for omens.

Memorable Quote

“He [the Sultan] delayed it.” [24:54, Prof. Shin]

Internal Disagreements & Professional Rivalries

[27:41–36:55]

• Astrologers often disagreed vehemently on timings—disputes could come down to minutes (e.g., 20° vs. 22° Leo rising for founding a mosque).
• Chief astrologers or the Sultan had to adjudicate disputes; sometimes, Sultan deferred judgment.
• Notable figure: Riyazi, a poetic and self-assured astrologer who never attained chief status, chronicled disputes, voiced frustrations, and inserted poetry into his work.

Memorable Moment:

Riyazi’s Poetic Complaint

“Riazi's heart weighed down by fortune’s ruthless hand...his fame as radiant as the sun at its peak. Yet those blind to the star’s secrets more favor they seek.” [40:51, Chris quoting Riyazi, at 40:51]

Ottoman Sultans' Personal Interest in Astrology

[43:30–54:51]

• Sultan Bayezid II (r. 1481–1512) was instrumental in institutionalizing court astrology due to personal passion.
• His library shows a remarkable proportion devoted to astral sciences (~15% of a 7,000-book collection).
• His circle included close friends and tutors who were major supporters and technical defenders of astrology, including Muayyadzade, who famously wrote a rebuttal to critics.

Cultural & Intellectual Influences

[46:04–52:13]

• Strong Persianate influence in early Ottoman astrology—scholars came from or were educated in Persian lands.
• Connections to the Mongol and Iranian world (with some adoption of Chinese calendrical ideas via Persian transmission).
• The “astral sciences” included both astrology and astronomy.

Technical Challenges: Precision and Observatories

[62:58–67:20]

• Repeated complaints about inaccurate astronomical tables; demand for real-time observations.
• Observatories were rare, vulnerable to political or religious pressure, and their continued operation depended on courtly or royal patronage.

  “...it was also a very costly business and there was really no institutional framework for the sustenance of these observatories.” [65:25, Prof. Shin]

Memorable Moment:

Astrologer Riyazi requests the Sultan fund an observatory; request declined.

Astrology, Talismans, Horary, and Medicine

[71:36–73:12]

• Astrologers sometimes engaged in talisman-making and had overlapping knowledge of medicine, often including medical advice in almanacs.

Annual Almanacs and Prognostications

[73:12–75:09]

• Primary courtly product: annual almanac, delivered at the spring equinox.
• Included specialized predictions by societal class (each planet governing a social stratum).
• Eclipses were always noted last due to inauspicious associations, often interpreted as omens for rivals’ misfortunes.

  “...the bad omen of the eclipse was associated with the main rival of the Ottoman house at the time.” [75:50, Prof. Shin]

Perils and Prestige of the Profession

[76:23–79:52]

• Astrologers enjoyed significant material and symbolic rewards if favored (robes, silver, even royal family gifts), but faced professional insecurity and, in legend, even mortal danger for inaccurate predictions.
• One legend adorns court astrologer Osri’s alleged fate—a myth rather than fact.

Decline in Prestige—Changing Fortunes

[81:27–84:46]

• Peak favor occurred in Bayezid II’s reign; prestige and salaries declined in subsequent centuries.
• Astrologers’ expertise always faced ambivalence and competition, even as they were valued.

Astrologers vs. Other Esoteric Experts

[84:46–89:29]

• The distinction between astrologers and other occult practitioners is often blurred in modern studies, but in court competition and practice, astrologers, geomancers, and letter-mystics had different domains and sometimes rivalries.
• Example: Under Sultan Suleiman, geomancy rose, and astrologers’ prominence diminished.

  “These specialists were also competing with one another...the competitive environment and the particular decisions made by patrons as to what kind of expertise should be preferred over what is an important question that we should, I believe, address.” [89:10, Prof. Shin]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Decline Narratives:

  “The decline narrative is still a dominant one...but I wanted to engage with that kind of discussion whether we can speak about the flourishing of sciences...” [03:09, Prof. Shin]

• On Astrologers’ Training:

  “Family kinship was really a primary method for the transmission of this knowledge.” [15:30, Prof. Shin]

• On Petty Bureaucratic Wrangling:

  “That text is still my favorite Ottoman astrological text...there was a particular disagreement among court astrologers at the time...the disagreement was about minute differences as to the most auspicious moment.” [27:41, Prof. Shin]

• On Fate and Favor:

  “He always just kept having bad luck.” [42:56, Chris Brennan]

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |:--------------:|--------------------------------------------------| | 00:00–03:09 | Episode intro, challenging “decline” in astrology | | 08:52–11:41 | Ottoman astrologers’ administrative unit | | 12:55–16:33 | Knowledge transmission—family & mentorship | | 17:48–22:49 | Resources, access to instruments & libraries | | 22:49–27:41 | Electional astrology—practical duties & examples | | 27:41–36:55 | Internal disputes (Riyazi, technical debate) | | 43:30–54:51 | Sultan Bayezid II’s patronage and personal study | | 62:58–67:20 | Technical challenges, need for observatories | | 71:36–75:09 | Talismans, horary, and medical astrology | | 73:12–75:09 | Almanac structure and social-level predictions | | 81:27–84:46 | Decline in prestige, changing royal tastes | | 84:46–89:29 | Astrologers vs. other esoteric professionals |

Final Thoughts

Professor Shin’s research offers rare, vivid insight into a four-century living institution at the intersection of science, bureaucracy, and courtly life. The Ottoman court astrologers wore many hats—court diviners, mathematicians, and sometimes, embattled bureaucrats or poets. Their world was one of technical debate, delicate status negotiations, intersection of family and state, and the persistent dance between trust and skepticism from the most powerful figures in the empire.

“They always wanted to have them [astrologers] around, but... they didn't really know what to do with them. So it's not maybe that different from how astrologers today are perceived by both the decision makers and the general public.”
— Prof. Tunsh Shin, [84:46]

Further Reading & Resources

• Book: Forgotten Astrologers: Science and Authority in the Ottoman Empire, 1450–1600 by Tunsh Shin — Available via Amazon and major booksellers
• Contact & Info: Astrology Podcast
• Support: Patreon - The Astrology Podcast

Summary curated and edited for clarity, completeness, and fidelity to the episode’s tone and language. Attribution timestamps and speaker initials throughout.