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- [00:00]
Pallas K. Augustine
Chris.
- [00:00]
Chris Brennan
Hey, my name is Chris Brennan and you're listening to the Astrology podcast. Joining me today is astrologer Pallas K. Augustine, and we're going to be talking about the floating IC as a sensitive point and what happens when it falls in different whole sign houses in the chart besides the fourth whole sign house, and how it imports fourth house or IC significations, which then double up in the whole sign house that it falls in. So. Hey, palace, thanks for joining me.
- [00:30]
Pallas K. Augustine
Hi, thanks for having me.
- [00:32]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, I'm very excited to have you on the show. This is your first time on the show and we've been talking about doing this for over a year now because you recently just published a book on the IC itself, right?
- [00:45]
Pallas K. Augustine
In 2022, when Jupiter in Pisces was conjunct my IC, we launched a Kickstarter to fund the IC and astrology of Coming Home. It was wildly successful, which was beautiful. I love my Kickstarter backers and it took us a couple years to get it all together. Hugh Tran, a brilliant designer and astrologer, did the whole book too. And so it took us a couple years, but we got it. It was beautiful. And then the first run after we fulfilled the Kickstarter backers, orders sold out immediately. So it took us a while to come out with a second edition. But now we have a second edition of the ic. It's an ebook and a print book and it's available. So I am talking about it more and it was wonderful to get your invitation to talk about this topic here because it's one I think and talk about a lot.
- [01:38]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, definitely. And it was funny last year when we started talking about this because your book was coming out right as I was releasing, or about to release my deep dive into the fourth house in astrology, and I thought about doing one on the IC with you, but I wanted to finish the the fifth house first because that's the other house where for a lot of people the floating IC will either fall in the fourth whole sign house or the third whole sign house or the fifth whole sign house. And once I recently finally did the fifth house episode episodes that I've just released. Over the course of the past few weeks, I finished sort of collecting a lot of example charts for those placements and feel I have a much clearer picture now about that placement, even though I've understood it for almost 20 years now that I've been working with this concept of the IC as a floating point. Having demonstrated it, I feel good about now being able to have this discussion and talk about it more comprehensively. Especially because one of the things that you did is we put out a survey over the past week asking for people for examples. And we actually got a lot of great submissions. Right.
- [02:49]
Pallas K. Augustine
So many. Yeah, we got 245 over the course of just a couple days. And people were so vulnerable and sweet and honest. And I just want to extend a lot of gratitude to everyone who submitted. We can only talk about a handful today, but my research into this is ongoing. The IC book itself has 16 in depth client case stories about ICs in different signs and then chart rulers in different whole sign houses as well. And so this work is just very near and dear to my heart and it really touches me that people wanted to share and we'll share a few of them today.
- [03:28]
Chris Brennan
Brilliant. All right, well, the majority of this episode will be us going through those submissions and talking about them. I'll mention or reiterate a few of the examples that I found during the course of doing the Houses series over the past year. But the main focus will be on sharing those chart examples that were submitted by listeners over the course of the past week. And then of course, people can get a hold of your book. Right now you're selling it exclusively through.
- [03:53]
Pallas K. Augustine
Your website, right through adolestolarum.com there's a shop there and you can get the print and the ebook versions.
- [04:01]
Chris Brennan
Cool. All right, I'll put the link to that in the description below this video on YouTube or on the the podcast website entry for this episode. All right, so why don't we set a foundation first for everything in IC language by talking about the IC and talking about the fourth house and talking about this concept that originally, like 20 years ago when I first came into astrology, ironically, like many people, I heard about the concept of whole sign houses coming in as a placidus like modern astrology user and I was like, that's, that's not a good system. That doesn't make any sense that the IC doesn't start with the degree of, that the fourth house doesn't start with the degree of the ic. And I actually rejected the idea of whole sign houses for the first year after I heard from it. It wasn't until I learned all of Hellenistic astrology and I learned the whole system and how the system works together that I started to understand that perspective better. And now it's been 20 years, literally 20 years of me reviving that and using that idea that the degree of the IC can float around the bottom part of the chart as a sensitive point and import, functionally, IC or fourth house significations into whatever whole sign house it falls. But a lot of this comes back to the symbolism of what the IC and the fourth house represent. And you are the resident expert in that. So where do we start with that discussion?
- [05:39]
Pallas K. Augustine
Oh, there's so many places to start. I just did a talk for the Washington State Astrological association, and in that one we used the concept of mycorrhizal fungi, who are basically the mycelium in the soil, who have a symbiotic relationship with the plants that grow in the soil. And it's. It's a huge network and it's how so many discoveries are being made about this kind of this fungal network, this mycelium facilitating not only plant communication, but also plant health. It acts almost as an immune system. And to me, the IC is so similar to that. And of course, it's sort of funny to talk about the IC out of relationship with the midheavens, since they're intertwined. They're the same axis, right? They float together around the chart. And so to me, the midheaven are these what gets planted, right? Like what blooms from the IC and the mycelium that are down there. And it's very common to talk about the IC through the metaphor of roots. And it is that for sure, both in the familial sense and also in the land sense. And of course, these are where we see the fourth house topics start to come out. But it's even more than that. In my research, time and time again, the IC connected people into not only their lineages of family and home, but also their lineages of culture and craft and vocation and place and art, right? And so when we start playing with, when we kind of liberate the IC and the midheaven from being only associated with the 4th and 10th, we start seeing. And if we work with clients, of course, I'm a consulting astrologer or all my work and research comes from my client research, it just opens up the possibilities for what people are able to see when they look at their ic. And so many people have such complicated relationships with their families that approaching the IC with this more open interpretation, which using it within a whole sign house system allows us to do, it's so much more generative for people as they look at their lives, they look at their lived experiences and they try to track these stories and the ic, the depths that are available there. I've seen it do just even a slight awareness Right. Like connecting into it, thinking about it, kind of returning it to its place in the chart as the foundation of the chart, really allowing people to honestly gain more confidence in their life and more understanding of their plan, place. And when we work in a kind of even remotely deterministic model, we kind of need that to be able to understand what we're doing here and who we're connected with. And the IC is the strongest place that I've found that really connects people into that.
- [08:49]
Chris Brennan
Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. And I like what you said there. One of the things that you mentioned that's interesting is sometimes people have the perception that whole sign houses is more simplistic and less complex when you're not working with all of these intermediate cusps that are floating around. But ironically, when it comes to the IC floating around the bottom half of the chart and the MC floating around the top half, and then blending significations functionally of two different houses or domains or ranges of significations together, it actually creates a much more cal complex and specific range of significations than you might expect. So there's actually a greater complexity to that approach that I think until you've had some experience working with and talking with clients that have the IC in different houses, that might be unexpected if you're not familiar with that approach.
- [09:51]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things, too, and we're not doing any fourth house IC examples today, since you covered much of that in your fourth house series, but there's a way that it actually allowing the ic, even if people are working in quadrant houses, allowing the whole sign counted from the ascendant to be part of the delineation of the midheaven. And IC is a really powerful tool in this way, and it actually makes it more specific and special when the IC does fall in the fourth whole sign house, when it's not just given. So sort of part of my pet theory about the whole thing, in terms of connecting the work that we did in the book and the work that I do with clients into the traditions that we're working within, is that it's possible that the IC has taken on a lot of the fourth house significations because of its association with the fourth house cusp and quadrant systems. But that's not necessarily inherent. And certainly in many of the stories that we see, see, it's not an inherent connection to that familial rooting. And it's often when it's in a different house than the fourth, there's often an absence of that kind of familial rooting or land or real estate, or these kind of fourth house topics, or those topics. We're able to reckon with fourth house topics in a way that we would reckon with any house topics, rather than just immediately assuming that these are people's foundations, foundations that support their life and support their midheaven contributions.
- [11:34]
Chris Brennan
Okay, yeah, well, let's talk about that, because that's something for me, it's like there's two ways to go about researching this and approaching it on the one hand, and two ways that you really see it come up in practice. And one of those is just by looking at natal charts and looking at examples of charts where you have the fourth whole sign house and then you have the IC when it falls. And usually they're like, let's say the fifth house or the third whole sign house. And that's one way of approaching researching this topic. And then the second way of approaching researching it is the same thing, but instead looking at the sequence of what happens with the transits. So, for example, let's say the IC is in the fifth whole sign house. That means, for example, a person will get a Saturn transit that'll go through their fourth whole sign house for two or three years, and then immediately following that they'll get a Saturn transit that will go through their fifth whole sign house, but it will also pass over their ic. And one of the things I've always shown is how you'll see a continuation of, for lack of a better word, fourth house topics that go across the fourth whole sign house and the fifth whole sign house because of the presence of the ic, extending some of those fourth house significations into the next sign. And that's one of the best ways to test this and show and see for yourself that it really does work, especially when you experience a transit like that. But for me, as a result of that, I don't make a lot of symbolic distinction between where I see a lot of overlap between the fourth whole sign house having similar fourth house significations and the IC having or importing similar fourth house significations. Do you see it the same or do you see it differently than how I've stated it there?
- [13:29]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, no, I think that's absolutely true. I mean, it happens with profections as well, where you'll have a fourth house year and that will bring in the ruler's significations of that. And then if you have your IC in the fifth when you move into that house year, you're going to have. You're going to have IC activations as well. And there's a piece there where.
- [13:53]
Chris Brennan
I.
- [13:53]
Pallas K. Augustine
Mean, this is part of the fun and this is part of the research, right, of figuring out, and especially when you're talking to clients and doing this work with clients and bringing this in, or you come across an IC activation and it's in a different. It's in the third or it's in the fifth. And being able to help them parse apart what is the fourth house versus what is the ic and what assumptions have we brought into that? How does our IC function in relationship with our fourth house, no matter where the IC is? Because that's a huge. That's a huge issue. And that comes out in many of the examples, right? It's like people, we actually. One of the funny things about the submissions is that I had to dig and dig and dig to find an icy ruler in the fourth house example. And the one that I did find, it's someone who just doesn't get it just doesn't see the difference because 4th house stuff for them is really crappy and their IC is in Taurus and it should be a little bit better. But they're icy rulers in Aries, and so they're wrapped up together in this weird way. But if you kind of pull it out, you look at the. That fact fifth house significations, you look at the exaltation ruler of the IC as well as the domicile ruler. This is such a potent piece of the puzzle. And then you see that the third house gets pulled in and Pisces gets pulled in and their ascendant does. And there's this whole story that their fourth house is kind of literally hot and painful to the touch, right? But when you pull out the IC and. And you reckon with it alongside fourth house stuff, when you're like, okay, this is painful, this is literally part of your IC signature, that fourth house stuff is painful. Right? And then it just opens it up so you can find connections in all the other ways and the ways that the houses relate together through their rulers. And. Yeah, it's juicy.
- [16:04]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, totally. So before we get into the examples, maybe let's give some significations and some meanings of the fourth house in the IC in order to ground the basic and most fundamental symbolic meanings of those things in astrology and therefore, what sort of things we would expect to find if this technique works once we start seeing the IC importing those significations into different whole sign houses. So what are some of our primary topics? I mean, for me it's primarily like the parents traditionally and themes of family, and then secondarily the home and the living situation, and also finally the private life, because the fourth is opposite to the tenth, which is the most visible and public part of the chart. So the fourth is the most hidden part of the chart. And symbolically, it's also the place that is under the earth below our feet from our perspective, astronomically. So a lot of the significations come from there.
- [17:10]
Pallas K. Augustine
Mm. Yeah. When you're thinking about the geometry of it, there's the IC and then there's the point that square, the ascendantdescendent is always going to be in the 4th and the 10th. And I think that that's like a really helpful way to sort of think about it. The question that we asked in our survey, this is considering the IC as our home, parents, roots, tethers, ancestors, source, familial stories and experiences. How do you see the IC importing those topics into the whole sign house that it falls in your chart, then? Are there any significant overlaps? And I feel like that's for a lot of people, their roots and their tethers and this sort of supportive mycelium soil is in their biological family lineages or adoptive, of course, but the family lineages of the fourth house. But sometimes the family that ends up being important, that ends up being the actual nourishing connective force in their life, is not their bio family. It is not the people they grew up with, often with fifth house topics. And so this is just sort of expanding the keywords that we might think about. Chosen family comes up so much when it comes to fifth house ICs and ancestors of culture say. Right? So if someone is an artist, say they're a dancer, the lineage of dancers before them ends up being really important to their life. And third house, the siblings is certainly a huge one that constantly comes up, but those siblings take on that familial fourth house Y kind of a root system. So so many of the third house examples that we received are third house IC examples that we received are people who in some way were parentified, right? Like they became a parent or there was one of their siblings kind of became their parent while they were growing up. And that's very common for that third house IC topic. And also that one one thing that really comes up, and I think this has to do with the fact that throughout history, our places of worship, like where we gathered together to worship and experience devotion and togetherness in that way, religion and spirituality were in our Neighborhood. Right. Like, that's how. That's. We went to the church because the church was within walking distance for the kids. Right. And I think the third house. So often in third house ICs especially, people end up connecting to that familial root system that we associate with the fourth house. That is a fourth house topic ends up in part being within their religious traditions and within their spiritual connections. And that's also something that when we kind of expand out these keywords, those things can be fourth house too, if they overlap. Right. And then they're also. They are so just IC stuff. Because the way that it moves through it really adds to our grab bag of topics.
- [20:36]
Chris Brennan
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And then I know we're gonna go through each houses, so maybe we'll present a synthesis of significations at the top of each house. But I just wanna make sure we're really clear about our primary significations for the IC in this episode is we're talking about home, parents, roots, tethers, ancestors, source, familial stories and experiences. And then I would add just the private life. Actually, I need to add a couple other ones that really came up in the fourth house. One which is sometimes matters surrounding the end of life or even death and mortality can come up in the fourth. In the fourth IC more often than you might think. Like endings. And then the final one was. What was the final one? I guess it's just. Yeah. That idea of that which is not just private, but also ideas of that which is hidden or even ideas of secrecy can come up because it is that lowest, most hidden part of the chart that's under the feet astronomically and therefore not visible. So sometimes it's that which is behind the scenes and not visible, even though it's sometimes playing a very important role in managing things.
- [21:58]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, for sure. There's definitely. The hiddenness is. I mean, we literally. You can't see the ic. And I mean, I had Christina Mantinen, who is a practicing astrologer in Finland, who's practiced for 40 years, she pointed out to me while we were doing this research that in certain very, very northern places in Scandinavia, basically places that are circumpolar, the IC can actually go above the horizon because it is those days that the midsummer or the solstice days where the sun doesn't even go above the horizon or doesn't set. Right. And so there's these really extreme moments where even when it's above the horizon, it's still not visible because the horizon is not visible at Those moments in the sky that we're actually looking at. And so I think understanding the icy as this place, I often talk about it like you can't actually even really look at it. And this is part of why there's not that much in the literature on it. There's not that much being done on it is because you kind of have to. It's kind of like feeling around in the dark and seeing what you bump up against. Right. Rather than being able to. So as much as, like, the technique gives us these magical, mysterious ways to be able to access the IC like we're doing today. Right. In order to understand these narratives. At the same time, the IC itself is this place of mystery. It is this place of secrets. And it's often things that I say in the book, it's like, that's partially like, you know, there's some demons down there. I mean, there's demons everywhere in the chart. But there's, like, you know, some rough ones down there. And a lot of people are kind of scared to look down there, and sometimes for good reason. But oftentimes, those stories that come with the ic, those really scary ones, they are also protective, Right. In this sort of myce immune system kind of way that supports our whole being and all the experiences we go through.
- [24:14]
Chris Brennan
Right? Yeah, for sure. I remember in the big fourth House episode we did last year, there was one story of a famous person who was trans, but they were a musician, and they wanted to play in musician circles, so they had to pass as a man. And they grew up their entire life essentially passing as a man. And then when they passed away, their family discovered they were trans, which was a surprise, and made a media sensation at the time. But they had a lot of stuff going on in their fourth house, and so it was a really tangible example of that idea of secrets or that which is hidden sometimes being really important in a person's life, because sometimes in that instance, there was wanting to achieve their career dreams and their passion for music, and only one way to do that was to keep a part of themselves secret, for example, and to hide that because they otherwise could either not be able to pursue their passion and their dreams, or otherwise could face dangers, like actual threats to their life. So that was a really stunning example. I remember in the fourth House episode that impressed on me sometimes the importance of the hidden aspect of things occasionally.
- [25:34]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it can be literally scary down there, for sure. And the fourth House itself can carry so much power. I mean, being the end of the matter Right. Being the end of life. And also even just the association with real estate in this world. It's associated with private property. And when we're in a homelessness crisis and a housing crisis and scarcity, the fourth house becomes a really loaded place in many, many people's charts. And the IC takes on quite a bit of that.
- [26:11]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, absolutely. All right, are there any other fourth house things that we should summarize as just really important meanings that you got to or focused on, especially in the book? Before we jump into the chart examples and start going through the houses.
- [26:27]
Pallas K. Augustine
I think that covers most of it, especially when we start getting into the examples and we start seeing how these things play out through people's lives.
- [26:35]
Chris Brennan
Okay, excellent. All right, so how are we gonna do this? We're gonna go through. You wanna go through the smaller houses first or do you wanna go through the. That's the route.
- [26:49]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. So I think maybe a little bit of astronomical context might be helpful. So it is possible for the IC to Beit's most often in the third, fourth or fifth house. And sometimes it's in the second or the sixth, although those only happen at extreme latitudes and they're quite rare. So I just have a couple examples from each of those from the people who wrote in. And I think they can kind of go together as being these sort of extreme outliers that we can see. And we can kind of see that a little bit in their stories. And then we can move on to sort of a more robust discussion of the much more common third house and fifth house.
- [27:37]
Chris Brennan
Okay. So I like that idea of showing astronomically. Let me show a chart really quickly for the moment to demonstrate that. So here is the chart. I'll back it up for now here in Denver for when we started with late Sagittarius rising. This is our election today. And so let's say this chart, for example, Sagittarius is rising. Late Sagittarius is rising, which means Sagittarius is the first whole sign house. Capricorn, therefore, because it's the second sign, is the second whole sign house. Aquarius is the third house, and Pisces is the fourth whole sign house. So most of our fourth house significations are showing up there in Pisces in the entirety of that sign from 0 to 30 degrees. But one of the unique things about whole sign houses is we find the degree of the IC in this instance over at 21 degree of Aries. So it's in the fifth whole sign house. And therefore, according to the theory of the technique, we would see an importing of, let's say, fourth house significations into the fifth whole sign house, where there's a doubling up. And one of the things that's interesting and unique about the whole sign perspective is it doesn't just start at the ic, even though the IC is going to definitely be the most sensitive point where there would be a culmination of fourth house significations. But really, the fourth house significations that are being imported from the IC start at the beginning of the sign and last until the end of the sign. So that's a really important conceptual thing. We need to convey that in this approach, the IC acts as a sensitive point in the same way that the Lot of Fortune or the Ascendant act as sensitive points, which is to say that they are sensitive points that mark or designate the entirety of the sign that they fall in with their significations. So that's how, for example, the Lot of Fortune was used in ancient astrology, where whatever sign it falls in, that entire sign gets marked with lot of Fortune significations, or the degree of the Ascendant, because It falls in 28 degrees of Sagittarius. In this chart, it marks the entirety of Sagittarius with first house significations all the way from 0 degrees of Sagittarius to the last degree. So that's an important part of the conceptual model that is good to convey at this stage.
- [30:04]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, absolutely. And thinking about the way transits work to it as well, like thinking about the IC as this culmination point. Right. And so when we're working at it with transits, it's like the whole sign of approach activates the IC in a way, and then, of course, fades out as it moves through the rest of the sign. But that's really thinking about them as these sensitive points, because it is kind of a node, Right. It is a place where the ecliptic and the meridian contact each other. Of course, the midheaven is the one we can see. And in this chart, it's in the 11th house with Venus right there. So sweet. I love these charts.
- [30:48]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. This is our election today.
- [30:50]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. And so, of course, there's a lot of ways that people kind of shorthand define the midheaven and ic. Right. And they're not necessarily the most astronomically accurate, but as like the midheaven being, say, the highest point in the sky. That's kind of true. But depending on what time of day you're looking at, it's not necessarily the highest the midheaven is going to get in that day because it's the way it's like the ecliptic moves. Well, we move, of course, but the ecliptic goes. It looks like it moves from east to west as the sun moves around. And then the meridian is what is just our north south line. So here for me, it's like this is south. And so we have this north south line. And wherever they meet, and of course this changes, unless we're in the equator, this changes connected to what season of the year we're in. And so the midheaven rises and lowers in itself and moves through the sky. And so you can see it's always that southern point. But with the ecliptic moving, we see when we move the chart forward, the midheaven also moves through the zodiac.
- [32:07]
Chris Brennan
Right. And that's a really important point. I'll animate it in just a second. But that this is where the crux of the issue, and this is the issue that has to be resolved that we've been working on over the past 20 years and have been taking steps to articulate better. But the issue, as you just pointed out, is that the meridian, which is what we call, let's say, the degree of the mc, which is the floating point that we'll be talking about, is like the north south line, basically, the meridian points to where north is, basically. And the planets reach their highest elevation at the degree of the mc. So there's some sense of reaching the highest point of something with the degree of the mc and also some notion of it being associated with north and the north south axis. However, the 90 degree point, once you find the degree of the ascendant, which is the eastern horizon, the point that's exactly 90 degrees from that which in this chart, since 28 degrees of Sagittarius is rising, that means 28 degrees of Virgo would be the 90 degree point. That's actually the 90 degree point. If you're standing on the Earth and you look directly overhead, that's actually what you would find. And the fixed stars, for example, around that point are what you would see if you look directly upwards. And the ancient Mesopotamian astrologers would use those 90 degree point stars in order to tell time at night. So there's this secondary similar overlap of meaning of the stars that are at the top of the sky or the part of the sky, sky that is directly above your head. And that's the fundamental symbolic and conceptual. You could either frame it as a conflict here, where we have two separate points that are representing similar overlapping significations of 10th house midheaven significations. Or you could say, if it's not a conflict, you could say that there's a two points in the sky fundamentally that have similar and complementary and overlapping meanings. And therefore it's not just one thing or the other, which is the trap that astrologers want to fall into. And it's why some of the House division debates get so intense, because each astrologer that just adopts one approach. If you're just adopting the quadrant house systems, the midheaven, very obviously symbolically and in chart work, does represent 10th house things. And that is an experience that is very obvious and strongly felt, because astronomically and symbolically, it does have some of those notions of culmination and highest elevation of planets and things like that. But then people that work with whole signalso see that the 10th whole sign house, the zodiacal sign that was culminating at the moment of birth, also shares and carries these 10th house highest point, most public and visible point significations as well. And so part of the goal here, and what you and I are doing today, is we're showing one of the best ways that we found to reconcile that which is taken into account, both and recognizing it's not an either or situation, but in fact both are true at the same time. Sorry, one last thing. That approach is not something we're just inventing, but this approach is actually something Vettius Valens talked about in the second century and outlined. And that's why for 20 years now, I've been using this approach in the first place, because when I read the full anthology back in 2005, Valens has this chapter in book five of the anthology where he starts talking about exactly this approach and outlining this notion of the degree of the MC, importing 10th house significations and doubling up into whatever whole sign house it falls. So already in Valens, he's reconciling these two different frameworks, and he's showing you the path forward to using both by recognizing that they both share similar significations and can be used together, rather than something that's in competition. And there's something really beautiful and elegant about that.
- [36:53]
Pallas K. Augustine
Totally. Yeah. I'm very much a secret third thing coded person in basically every aspect of my life, including my astrological techniques and actually my natal chartwich, we're not going to share today, but it is this problem, because my sun is actually square, my ascendant descendant, but my actual midheaven is in the far other side of the sign. So in quadrant house systems, I'm firmly a ninth house sun. But anyone who knows me, there's 10th house equalities to my Virgo sun. Absolutely. And that square to the ascendant descendant is this. Is this. Exactly. There's so much going on with it. And I think squares to the anchor angles, squares to the midheaven ic, of course, are that same thing if we take it from the north south axis. And of course, for anyone who wants to understand more of the astronomy, I highly recommend going on YouTube and looking up astronomy lectures on the celestial sphere. And that will explain this meridian, this celestial equator stuff, all this stuff. And of course, this changes whether you're in the northern and southern hemisphere as well. But the midheaven IC is always that northern southern thing. Whether you're in the northern or southern hemisphere, it just changes what it looks like. And I think there's something really potent about being able to understand squares to the angles as just as active points as. As the angles themselves. And of course, this is square to the midheaven IC is the vertex anti vertex, which I don't work a lot in that frame in my practice. But squares to the midheaven IC are a very classically slept on function. I think when people are looking at their transits and their profections in any other timing technique, that activates. That activates the zodiac, basically. So I think that doing what we're doing here, it really brings out how those techniques really do function. It's almost always the secret third thing, when you're actually talking to people and working with people's lives. And I really value that.
- [39:20]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, absolutely. And that takes a learning curve to get used to that and getting used to being comfortable working with that sort of ambiguity sometimes. But once you do, and once you truly unlock it, it just allows for all of this complexity and this nuance to come out and you start seeing the shades of gray and the in betweens and things like that. And it just creates such a richer backdrop for doing chart delineations. So one last thing I'll mention. Oh, go ahead.
- [39:52]
Pallas K. Augustine
I was just going to say, for people who aren't more familiar with my work, it's like I do. I sort of have this simultaneous education in traditional Hellenistic Revival as well as more psychological and archetypal lineages as well. And so even though when you're talking to me, I basically base all my delineations on whole sign houses, I'm usually actually looking at a placidus chart when I'm looking at a chart in a consultation session, because I love seeing the angles as they are because I understand it to be representative of the actual sign sky and the horizon. Right. But I'm working, I'm blending these understandings of the whole sign houses of the squares to the angles of understanding the midheaven and IC as these floating important points. And I think that there's. I don't know, there's just a very generative way to think about that. It's very, you know, mercurial Jupiterian, which I definitely am. But it's. Yeah, it's delicious, honestly, when it comes to astrology.
- [40:59]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. I actually think that's one of the reasons that it's harder to study the history of whole sign houses and when whole sign houses fell out of usage. Because I think a lot of the astrologers from the medieval and Renaissance periods were like you and that they would cast a quadrant chart to have the quadrant house positions, but they would just obviously implicitly be able to understand what the whole sign positions were at the same time, because you just count the signs. And so sometimes when you go back and look and people are like, well, we don't see a whole sign chart in such and such author. It's because it's such a simple and basic concept. But like you, sometimes it makes more sense to cast a quadrant chart and then just to infer the secondary positions on top of that.
- [41:52]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, I think counting signs from the ascendant is also a skill that especially beginner astrologers should definitely get in the habit of, because once you do that, you can do derivative houses, you can do fortune houses very easily, just all in your head. And that's one of the sort of pet beginner techniques that I think. And basically when you do that, you're. You're using whole sign houses no matter what kind of chart you're looking at. And yeah, I think that's totally accurate in terms of this used to just be normal.
- [42:28]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, well, and there's like one chart example where Marinus does that and he talks about it and it gives you a peak that sometimes that approach persisted much longer into the tradition that's in the 17th century than you might expect expect. So there was one last point to make about that I wanted to state. I think part of what we're talking about here I always come back to and have been developing over the past 10 years is what I call the mercurial nature of astrology, which is that astrology was always traditionally represented by mercury. And part of that is that astrologers are acting as interpreters and translators of the language of the song stars and the sky. But also, there's a very practical reason for that that I see come up over and over again in astrology, which is that we often run into these dilemmas in astrology that seem like dilemmas where we have two different, majorly seemingly competing ways of doing some specific technical thing, where you almost. It seems like an either or situation. And astrologers sometimes come down really hard in picking one approach or the other. But so oftentimes I think the answer to this is just going back to realizing that astrology is a mercurial or Mercury based thing. And with Mercury, whenever you have those things, it's not necessarily either or, but it's both. And so we see that sometimes with tropical versus sidereal or whole sign versus quadrant houses, or there can be major aspects versus minor aspects or what have you. It just comes up over and over again, these seemingly contrasting things where it's like, how can two things be true at once? And so people aren't used to thinking like that because it's not everyone's normal way of thinking. But it's something I think that's really valuable and important for astrologers to get used to thinking because it's is inherent to the very nature of astrology.
- [44:36]
Pallas K. Augustine
Absolutely. Yeah. I'm definitely in the astrology as divination school and being an astrologer as being a diviner. And it's more than translation. Like, yes, it is translation, but it's more than translation. And that so often every translator knows that there's a million ways to translate something. Right. And it depends on, of course, the context. And when we're working with clients, it depends on their lived experience and what they're working with. And this is. Yeah, music to my ears. For sure.
- [45:17]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, for sure. All right, let's jump into it. Let's get into this. We're going to start. You want to start with the second house, right?
- [45:25]
Pallas K. Augustine
Mm.
- [45:26]
Chris Brennan
Oh yeah. Did I mention? I'll get to that later. But let's start with the second house. Second house significations for me are things like money, possessions, material things associated with the person's life, like wealth and other things like that. Are there any other second house significations you usually throw in?
- [45:48]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, I think I take a pretty expansive idea of resources, which of course is material wealth and income, kind of. And there's a being in the second house that below the horizon next to the first, there is this idea of agency. When it comes to those things versus the eighth, which is so similar. But that's like other people's agency when it comes to material wealth and things. So I do see things about the body and land coming up in second house too. Even though those might be things we give to the first or the fourth, those can come up. And I think, especially in the culture we're living in, that tends to be so optimized and so productivity oriented. The idea of material wealth and income is often tied into one's body and one's health. And so those things can come up when we're talking to people as well when it comes to secondary house topics.
- [46:52]
Chris Brennan
Got it. All right, so let's share our first chart example, which is by a listener or somebody that filled out the form named Johanna. Right?
- [47:02]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. Johanna lives in Helsinki, Finland. So Johanna's the person who actually alerted me to the fact that it's actually quite common up there, right up in these extreme latitudes for people to have their IC in the first house as well. So we ended up adding that as an option. We didn't get any examples, but she showed me a couple that she just knows on her own. And Johanna's chart is. I love it. If you put this date and time into Stellarium software to see the actual sky, you can see how the sun and the Uranus are in relationship to each other at this is sort of like highest point in the sky if anyone wants to be a real nerd and go all the way for it. So I'm actually just gonna read what Johanna wrote because I think it's so indicative. I guess we could go through what we're looking at here as well. Right. So we have this cancer icy.
- [48:08]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. Just for the audio listeners. So Gemini rising Cancer icy.
- [48:13]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. And Johanna has a moon in Sag right below the descendant and then a square separating from a square from Saturn in Pisces in the 10th, which also feels kind of relevant. The Ascendant ruler for her, Gemini Ascendant is a stationary Mercury in Aquarius conjunct Mars in the ninth, which also feels relevant to her story. So. So Johanna shares. I was born in 1994 into a family in the midst of a major recession in Finland, which was caused by the collapse of the Soviet Union and earlier financial market liberalization and foreign currency loans. A large number of Finns became heavily over indebted and lost all their assets. My family was one of them. As my grandparents were merchants and my aunt's husband was an entrepreneur. My relatives lost practically all their property during the recession and some of them were still repaying debts well into the 2020s. So of course, with the IC in the second house, this puts the midheaven in the eighth house. So this would be a generational signature that people with this Uranus, Neptune in Capricorn of her generation living in Finland at this time would be living with. From a young age, I had a feeling that I could be the one to get an education, become wealthy and pay off my family's debts. Debts. Even though as a child I didn't understand any of it. I've never received any money from my parents, but I've always been generous and tried to help my over indebted relatives throughout my life. I started doing occasional jobs at the age of 13 to build up my own assets. And later I went on to study economics to better understand the causes of the 1990s recession and the mistakes made in handling it. Of course, I also thought that if I became an economist, I could get a well paying job. I've always been interested in finishing history, especially my family's history. Because we had no property, we also had no history. Our family's farms, houses and cottages had been repossessed. And so here I think we can see another piece around that. Looking at the fourth house as distinct from the second here. So the fourth house is Virgo, and so sharing her ascendant ruler is also that Mercury with Mars in the ninth in Aquarius.
- [50:33]
Chris Brennan
Right. As a child is motivated by her family situation to go to school and study economics, which is a ninth house thing.
- [50:43]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. And then also seeing that being that eighth house midheaven, being ruled by that Saturn in Pisces in the 10th and being in that square to that moon, which is her IC ruler.
- [50:56]
Chris Brennan
Right, yeah, that makes sense. But that focal point is just with the ic, which is importing home and family significations into the second whole sign house of money and finances. That was a major foundational thing early in her life was the unstable family financial situation.
- [51:19]
Pallas K. Augustine
And this thing that completely. It wasn't just family financial struggles. Right. It completely uprooted not only her national identity, which is also something that we often associate with the fourth. Right. But so bringing that into that second house and really just like entangling them completely together so that it impacted her entire life. She also shares a cute note here too, speaking to her moon. So her spouse's sun and Mercury is in cancer. Exactly. On her ic.
- [51:49]
Chris Brennan
Nice.
- [51:49]
Pallas K. Augustine
Which is so cute. And there's one piece I want to pull out from her story as well, and one thing that's funny, part of the reason she submitted is because of course my name Pallas. There's a national park wildlife reserve in Lapland in Finland called Pallas Tunturi, which is an essential part of her story and is part of why she's an example here, because it's just so beautiful. So when we're thinking about the IC as a sensitive point, I feel like this is one of. This is maybe the only example we have here of a transit or a lunation. Eclipses especially, but lunations as well, activating the point of the IC and making really wild things happen. So she writes In 2023, the new moon in Cancer aligned exactly with my IC. At the time I was living with my partner, of course, this moon ruler. Moon ruler of the IC in the seventh in a rented apartment in Helsinki on the verge of burnout because I couldn't finish my university university thesis after transitioning into full time work. More second house stuff. Due to the war in Ukraine, interest rates rose significantly in Finland and many private real estate investors were forced to sell their investment properties. That happened to us at the end of 2022 and shortly after the new moon in August 2023. Oh yeah, the new moon in August 2023. Our landlord, right more ETA's stuff informed us that we had to move out because he was selling the apartment. We decided to move to Lapland and work remotely from there for a year. I wanted to reconnect with my roots as my grandparents were originally from Lapland and the moon happened right around the full moon in Cancer before Christmas. In Lapland I found my extended family with whom contact had been lost and discovered that my grandfather's childhood home from 1909 was still standing. This is extremely rare as Nazi Germany burned down almost all buildings in Finnish Lapland during World War II, making the House a valuable part of our cultural heritage. Living in the middle of the Palace Chanduri Fells for a year helped me recover from burnout and I found a sense of home. Located about 250 km north of the Arctic Circle, Palace Centuri offered a truly a truly wonderful experience. Surrounded by the serene silence of arctic nature, the untouched wilderness, northern lights and crisp mountain air, I felt deeply connected to something timeless and and healing. It was in that vast quiet landscape that I rediscovered both my roots and myself.
- [54:20]
Chris Brennan
Wow. Yeah, beautiful.
- [54:22]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. Thinking about that Saturn ruling the midheaven eighth house, squaring the moon as the moon as icy ruler in the seventh, moving with your partner because you get evicted and finding Yourself in the Arctic mountains.
- [54:40]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. So there was definitely. With the lunations that were happening on the IC in the second house, there were financial things that were happening at that time in terms of needing to work full time in order to make money and pay bills, and then having weird things start happening with the home and living situation due to the landlords at the time and having this. This push for a move and a relocation with the partner that leads to reconnecting with one's roots and one's familial tradition. In some ways.
- [55:17]
Pallas K. Augustine
Such a beautiful example. Such a like. Yeah, I mean, I haven't seen that many second hosts. I see examples even in my client work when I was doing my research. So being able to see these and everyone who submitted them was really special.
- [55:32]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. And it's important because sometimes it's through the timing, things like she was sharing that you really see it come out at the same time because you start seeing overlapping in this instance, like second house and fourth house significations becoming prominent in the life in the same way, in a way that's overlapping and reinforcing each other. So I did mean to say. Yeah, I did mean to say that even though in this instance, for example, while the entire sign is marked with IC and fourth house significations in cancer, as well as second house significations, the IC is a sensitive point. There is almost like a graph that you could draw where there's an intensity that kind of peaks at the degree of the IC and then declines afterwards.
- [56:26]
Pallas K. Augustine
Absolutely.
- [56:27]
Chris Brennan
So it marks the entire sign with IC significations. Whatever sign it's importing those fourth house significations into. But the actual degree and the degree surrounding it are often experienced, especially in transits, as a period of heightened intensity with respect to the IC significations.
- [56:47]
Pallas K. Augustine
Absolutely. 100%.
- [56:49]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. So we'll see that come up more. Okay, awesome. Well, thanks to Joanna for submitting that. That was a great example.
- [56:55]
Pallas K. Augustine
So next we have. This is our second and last second house example. It's Amber, and she's in or was born in Aberdeen, Scotland, in 1991. Should we be reading the birth information out for the audio listeners?
- [57:14]
Chris Brennan
Nope, that's okay. Let's just skip it. We'll just especially. Cause we want to get through. If we want to get through our 20 examples, let's just keep it concise to especially the IC placement.
- [57:24]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, agreed. Okay. So this is another Gemini rising cancer IC example. We have a moon in Capricorn, of course, in the eighth with the midheaven. And Amber shares Material wealth and income for me is like trying to collect water with a sieve. No matter how easily it flows, it always slips away. I've always had a steady job, yet any kind of material abundance remains elusive, diluted by a tide of hobbies, distractions, and quiet timidity that keeps me from expanding my horizons in the tangible world. So, second house ruled by the moon. In detriment, the maternal element looms large. My relationship with my mother was tense growing up. I often felt like a fish out of water. Never quite the daughter she wanted, though I can't fault her for her financial generosity in times of need. So we see this moon icy ruler moon in the 8th with the north node offering generosity, but not necessarily the kind that Amber felt she needed, which is not an uncommon thing. And that south node on the IC in the second house itself being this sieve that she talks about where her own ability to make money feels. She says these issues have always felt amplified, even against what could otherwise be seen as a very fortunate life.
- [58:53]
Chris Brennan
Okay, so yeah, there's some financial things as well as a little bit of self worth type things that are tied up with the IC being in the second house.
- [59:03]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. And one other thing she shares, often in unexpected ways. She does end up being frequently gifted or inherited things. So, for example, during one failed attempt to move abroad, a stranger gave me $50 when I had nothing left, enabling me to get to my half sister's house. Or when my partner and I moved into an unfurnished flat after no fault eviction. Right, more eviction things. His mother gifted us an entire living room setup. On a more permanent note, my parents have put their house in my name, so I will inherit it. Probably my only tangible asset, which is ironic given my lifelong desire to get away. Wow.
- [59:45]
Chris Brennan
Okay.
- [59:45]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah.
- [59:47]
Chris Brennan
Nice. Absolutely feels so spot on. That's good. And something we should mention. I forgot to mention that for the structure of the actual survey itself, that we asked people two primary questions. Basically, there were three fields. And the first field was like the first field said, if any ways, if your IC falls outside of the fourth whole sign house, how do IC significations overlap with the significations of the house that it falls in in any notable ways? And that's like the first paragraph we're reading. And then the second question we asked was, what house is the ruler of your IC placed in? And do you see any overlaps or connections between the IC house and the whole sign house that it's in and the house that the ruler is in? And this is where some of the additional delineations are coming from.
- [60:45]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yep.
- [60:46]
Chris Brennan
Cool.
- [60:47]
Pallas K. Augustine
Really? Really. People did so well. I was so impressed with everyone. So we'll go into six house ICs because these are the other examples of ones that are very not common. And you have to be the upper latitudes in the northern hemisphere up in Scandinavia are quite populated. Right. And quite a few English speakers and I guess people who are into astrology, which is cool. So we did get a number of second house and sixth house examples from that. So our next example is Joe. This is the one.
- [61:20]
Chris Brennan
So real quick, 6th House significations, real quick for me are things like work, health, illness and sometimes subordinates or people that work for you can come up in the sixth house.
- [61:34]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. Servitude for sure, I think is one that comes up and that can be something when we're dealing with IC stuff more often. I've seen IC rulers in the sixth. There can be inherited experiences of that in the way that the trauma of servitude and of course in some examples, literal slavery, which is a six house association, traditionally, how that can be passed through the trauma of that through family lines is something that can come up in six health examples. Yeah. So this is the one that we don't want to share the place.
- [62:15]
Chris Brennan
Place. Okay, so let me just get rid of the data altogether then. And I will just share the chart itself, which is a chart with Sagittarius rising. And the IC is Taurus in the sixth whole sign house.
- [62:29]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yes. So this is a quick one, but I wanted to share this one because this was not the only SAG Ascendant Taurus 6th House IC that we received that had an association with a family farm. And one of the other ones was literally a family dairy farm. So when we're thinking about Taurus, that is very, very, very spot on. And the sixth house as well.
- [62:53]
Chris Brennan
Right.
- [62:53]
Pallas K. Augustine
Oh, sixth house also being domestic animals too.
- [62:56]
Chris Brennan
That's what I was just thinking. It was also, you know, we often find animals and like pets in the.
- [63:00]
Pallas K. Augustine
6Th house and 12th house too, of course, with like larger animals as well, being I think cows are cows. You're probably sort of one in the other. They belong in both houses different times. So Amber just real quick shares. My generation is the. The tenth on the same farm, very, very far north. A very practical family with seasonal routines. Maybe not emotionally present, but practical and reliable, always helping each other. And the ruler of Taurus is Venus, of course. And Joe's Venus is at 1 degree Virgo, right near the top of the chart. Even though it's quite far from the 12th house midheaven and she shares. Venus is in my 10th. And I work with remediation of soil, removing hidden pollution, cleaning, tidying, generational pollution projects from the subsurface of the soil.
- [64:00]
Chris Brennan
Wow.
- [64:01]
Pallas K. Augustine
Just so good.
- [64:02]
Chris Brennan
Incredible.
- [64:04]
Pallas K. Augustine
I love that.
- [64:05]
Chris Brennan
I like that. I like also the simplicity of the initial delineation of just like the IC importing family significations into the sixth house. And the family has run a farm for 10 generations. So it's like literally the family and animals are the two primary archetypes coming together there in this instance.
- [64:25]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. And I mean, we can also see some actual fourth house whole sign significations too, being like say the real estate aspect of it. Right. Because it's Pisces in her chart and Jupiter is in dignified and Sagittarius in her first house as well, which is just like. That is a fortunate familial connection in terms of. So this one, some of the other examples as well, we can see this is a quite positive, albeit maybe not emotionally present. Right. But there is a way that seeing the condition and placement and angularity of the IC sign rulers will often show not just the circumstances, but then how people feel toward the circumstances, which we've seen that in a couple of these examples so far, where it's like, might be quite fortunate circumstances, but how it actually lands is not so appreciated depending on other factors.
- [65:28]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, people sometimes, intermediate astrology students struggle with that. Sometimes. Well, they'll have a placement in a certain part of their chart that's supposed to mean something, but there'll be like a maltreatment or there'll be something tricky about it, and it will actually be indicating a negation of those topics rather than an affirmation of those. So saying no to it rather than saying yes. And people will sometimes struggle with that because they assume the placement is always supposed to be an affirmative. But sometimes what's being indicated in your chart is like a negation or that you won't do that thing or that you won't feel good about that thing, or that there's a problem there in some way.
- [66:15]
Pallas K. Augustine
100%. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We have one more sixth house example and that's the cap rising one.
- [66:22]
Chris Brennan
Okay.
- [66:23]
Pallas K. Augustine
And this is an example from Norway.
- [66:27]
Chris Brennan
And this is okay to share the data?
- [66:29]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yes. Yeah. And so this is Capricorn rising and with a Gemini sixth house. I see.
- [66:38]
Chris Brennan
Okay.
- [66:40]
Pallas K. Augustine
So she shares. What I inherited and struggle with the most is the servitude work ethic of both my Parents. I've always sacrificed my physical needs to serve others. My father worked as a carpenter but got partly disabled due to injuries from the work wearing him out. He was not good at taking care of himself, eating or rest wise. My mother had to change jobs to a consultant desk job from being a nurse, which is also taking a toll on her. And she always works overtime. So there is a Venus on the IC is here, but it's still in the sixth house. Right. And so those difficulties of that servitude and then of course of illness being another sixth house, one that we didn't mention being. Well, maybe we did, but being very, very prominent often. And so I see in the sixth being parents that overwork themselves to the point of illness feels very, very spot on.
- [67:36]
Chris Brennan
Absolutely. Yeah. That's very literal and makes a lot of sense.
- [67:42]
Pallas K. Augustine
So the ruler of the IC here bringing in a little bit of the fifth house example, because the ruler of that IC is Mercury in Taurus, which is very close to the sun combust in the fifth house. And so Cap Rising studied art in 20s and drawing and art in general has always dealt with the themes such as daily routines, daily life and work. I find the most inspiration at my work and have made several drawing portraits of my colleagues and my working space work was also very fun for me. I really love to work, but I have a hard time finding jobs that are compatible with my own health. Also just inherited illness and relationship to family is such a potent piece of this part too.
- [68:31]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. Because there's a mutual reception here where Gemini is the sixth whole sign house and also contains the ic and it's ruled by Mercury which is in Taurus in the fifth whole sign house. And then the ruler of the fifth house is Venus, which is placed in the sixth whole sign house conjunct the degree of the IC whenever there's an exchange of signs between the house rulers. We've seen this over and over again in the houses series that it creates a strong connection between those two areas of the life. And this is a really good vivid example of that.
- [69:03]
Pallas K. Augustine
And of course her own work being fun as well because we have the other benefic is Jupiter in Scorpio in her 11th House ruling the 12th House midheaven, which is also where her moon is. And that feels like that brings in some of that joy to her work as well. Even if it's probably. And she didn't share, but it's Even probably in 12th House topics or will be eventually.
- [69:28]
Chris Brennan
Okay. Yeah, yeah. All right. So that's the sixth House. Yeah.
- [69:35]
Pallas K. Augustine
Mm. That's it for second and sixth.
- [69:38]
Chris Brennan
Okay. So those are the two. In terms of the majority of the charts that we collected. In terms of where the majority of our audience is, I think those are the outlier houses that we wanted to start with first. But the majority of examples that we have and the majority of people have the IC either in the fourth whole sign house, or in the third whole sign house, or in the fifth whole sign house. So that is what we're going to talk about next. Shall we start with the third house?
- [70:08]
Pallas K. Augustine
Oh, yeah. Third house is so rich. I feel like it's one of the houses that people often have. Have some trouble with because it seems like the significations don't really connect. But when you get to that root of the joy of the moon, I feel like it really connects so much of the third house.
- [70:29]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, for sure. So when we did the third house series, it was like communication was a core one, but also siblings, relatives, neighbors, the city that you live in and the surrounding neighborhood. Sometimes friends came up with a third house, especially local friends or friends that you grew up with in your neighborhood as a result of proximity and finally short distance travel and traveling around your city and your local environment and things like that were all very prominent themes.
- [71:06]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. And bringing in that. That neighborhood vibe too, with the idea of a temple or your neighborhood gathering place, which is sometimes a mall, but oftentimes, especially historically, it was a church or a mosque or a temple. And that being quite a prominent third house association, too often.
- [71:29]
Chris Brennan
Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. All right, so who is our first third house? Or actually, let me give a couple of mine, just to reiterate.
- [71:38]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. Oh, yeah, sure.
- [71:40]
Chris Brennan
Because that sets up an interesting context. One of my favorite ones from the fifth house, one that I just did that I happened to find in that context was the birth chart of Serena Williams. And I found this really brilliant because Serena Williams has Taurus rising and the IC is in cancer in the third whole sign house. And the ruler of the IC in the third whole sign house is the moon, which is placed in the fifth house. So the way that this manifested in a very specific and literal way in her life is her parents, which is the ic, raised her and her sister, Venus Williams to be chess champions. And especially her father developed this strategy or this plan in order to make them the biggest chess champions in the world, which was successful. And they eventually actually became. And Serena is the younger of the two sisters. This is in tennis. And Serena, because she was the younger sibling, her older sister Venus is the one that started competing first. And so Venus sort of opened the path and then Serena followed it afterwards. But then eventually, when they became older, because they were the two at the top of the field, they ended up competing with each other. And Serena, I think, often is sometimes interpreted as having come out on top or having won in that battle when it comes down to certain things. But I just thought it was brilliant that in this instance, it's like the ic, which is the parents teaching her and her sister tennis together, which is the third house siblings. And then the focus is on sports, which fundamentally is normally fun and games. It's something people do for leisurely activities. Which is the fifth house. The ruler of it being in the fifth house. But in this instance, because it's like the moon is the sect light, because this is a night chart. And this became part of her life's work, was becoming the biggest tennis champion in the world. But it was very much tied up with her parents and especially her sibling.
- [73:59]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. Wow. Yeah, the fifth house. Well, we'll get into that in the fifth house example. But definitely games and gambling comes up in the fifth, for sure. I love that Venus and Scorpio being ruled by. But then also just separating from the Mars in the fourth, too. And just like how that fourth house business can. You know, it's got this Virgo moon. But then there's this. This probably kind of itchy quality and the competition aspect of it as well, being down there.
- [74:31]
Chris Brennan
I mean, with the Mars in the fourth whole sign house, there's, like, things involving her father and the role he played in pushing them and sometimes being somewhat overbearing. And that was the movie that came out a few years ago that Will Smith played her father, and they called it King Richard, which really speaks to that Mars and Leo in the fourth house placement in the role he played in the family. And then also, just interestingly, in terms of that was the Oscar that Will Smith won. And then he went up and slapped Chris Rock. And the controversy that broke out surrounding that. And just like, yeah, there was some Mars stuff there as well, but you get both.
- [75:14]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. Ninth house, south node with the midheaven too, with the north node with the ic, and just the way that the nodes are so wobbly and kind of chaotic and really draw focus. So that third house sibling dynamic getting so much popular attention as well, feels like a part of that. For sure.
- [75:35]
Chris Brennan
For sure. So that was one. And then to contrast with that, I just found a new one last month where I was just flipping through channels on Netflix, after recording a long episode and taking it easy one day, and there was this new Netflix documentary that had just come out on Charlie Sheen. And I used him a long time ago as a chart example of Saturn in the 10th house in a night chart because he was the highest paid actor in Hollywood. And then he went on this crazy drug bender or something like that, and he just threw it all away and walked away from it all in this fiery, almost downfall at the time. But he's since cleaned up and gone into recovery. And they released a Netflix documentary about him that coincided with the release of a book in September, when the Eclipse Happened in Pisces. And it's partially him also, I think, trying to clean up his image or control the narrative a little bit about his story. But those issues aside, and there were many problematic issues in terms of him, so I'm certainly not endorsing any of that. But he has Gemini rising, and the IC is in Leo in the third whole sign house. And Mercury, the ruler of the Gemini ascendant, is there in Leo with that overlapping IC and third house placement. And what was very fascinating about the documentary is that it focused a lot on the important role that his brother and his father played in his life. And his brother, especially Charlie, grew up shooting home movies with him because the father himself was the famous actor Martin Sheen, who was in famous movies like Apocalypse Now. So his father was an actor. And that inspired Charlie and his brother to also start acting and shooting movies early on as they were growing up together on a home camcorder. And his brother was, or is Emilio Estevez, who became a famous actor as well, a little bit before Charlie in the 1980s, going into the 1990s. And then that was part of him. And Charlie got a lot of experience shooting home movies together. And they were often imitating what their father did, which is their father was sometimes in violent movies where he was getting killed. And so they would sometimes recreate these violent movies in their home movies where they're getting killed in different ways. And then his older brother getting into acting first impressed a sense of Charlie, of competition, in the sense of Charlie wanted that he could see the access and the things his brother was getting access to to. And so he partially followed in his steps into acting to achieve the same things. So there was just a lot of third and fourth house significations that were very intense and very overlapping with this ruler of the Ascendant being in the third whole sign house of siblings, but also co present with the IC of parents and family at the same time.
- [78:50]
Pallas K. Augustine
Mm. And seeing that the opposition between that sun ruling the IC and Saturn ruling the midheaven, and just often the back and forth of a downfall and a comeback and giving up on things. It's like that very classic push and pull with Pluto down there, too, right?
- [79:12]
Chris Brennan
For sure. For sure.
- [79:13]
Pallas K. Augustine
And that being wrapped up in the story.
- [79:15]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, yeah. There was a quote at one point I wrote down that made me think of that Sun, Saturn opposition, or the sun conjunct Uranus and Pluto in the fourth whole sign house, where he said, said, we watched dad die a lot. And he was talking about movies. They were growing up, and his father would die in these movies. And so that left a little impression of some sort. And I just thought that was such an interesting quote with that Sun, Uranus, Pluto conjunction in the fourth whole sign house opposing the Saturn. And that's one of the tricky things, is you have to, when you're doing this, is reconcile that those fourth whole sign house placements are going to mean something and they're going to contribute something to the person's life, but then those IC significations are going to contribute something as well. Because the other part throughout the documentary is that his father was constantly going to bat for him and constantly trying to help him through his drug addiction and trying to. Sometimes even when Charlie didn't want it, his father was trying to do what was best by doing a press conference one time after he overdosed to, say, my son overdosed, and to air his private dirty laundry in order to try to force him to get help. But, yeah, sometimes that's both good things and tricky things.
- [80:37]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. And when you see something like this, where the IC house, that's other than the fourth and the fourth house are wrapped up, there's often these conversations happening between the planets, between the house rulership. The IC can often signal what ends up being most important when you're talking to a client. Right. What ends up being most kind of affectively or somatically important to them? Because when we understand the angles to be the thing that is relevant and hyperlocalized to exactly where on Earth we were born at that time, versus the other motion emotions of the planets as being sort of how the angles frame that. Right. There's a way that the angles themselves. And of course, this makes sense with the ascendant being us being the body being that moment, but it happens with the other angles as well. So it's like, even though there is this heavy fourth house emphasis, and it does rule the IC that IC and that sibling relationship does have this not just psychological but formative importance when it comes to someone's relational field and how they simply experience the whole world and tend to think of themselves as well, but also other people. And it really. Wherever the IC is. And we saw that in the sixth and second house examples. Right. It tends to kind of structure the whole world around someone.
- [82:08]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, absolutely. And that's what's important here. If you just looked at this in a quadrant framework, you would get the fourth house emphasis with the ruler of the ascendant after the IC in the fourth quadrant house. But you would miss the third house component, the major role that his famous brother Emilio Estevez, who was like, the same time Charlie was a leading actor in Hollywood, you have this other guy who is his brother that's also very prominent and playing in Mighty Ducks is a pretty big movie. I don't know if you're the same age, timeframe as I am.
- [82:44]
Pallas K. Augustine
It's huge.
- [82:50]
Chris Brennan
And there's other stuff there. I am trying to. And I would like to develop more of a conceptual distinction between what the whole sign house placements indicate versus what the quadrant or IC placements indicate. But currently I just see a similarity and an overlapping of significations rather than something that I can firmly say, this thing is doing this and this thing is doing this. And I'm still open to somebody presenting that or still developing this as I go further into the Houses series about creating a firmer distinction, if there is one. But I'm also open to that. There may not be one just because of dealing with two different frames of reference that have similar meanings of certain sectors that we're looking at.
- [83:42]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. The IC is canonically. I mean, once you get to the midheaven, I feel like that might end up making this more clear, because when you see the midheaven floating around and the different signs up top, and you actually can trace those to people's more conscious and more obvious contributions, I think that's probably going to be more clearer than the ic, because the ic, as we talked about, by its nature, there's secrets down there. When I sit with people in sessions and we're focusing on the ic, so often they have no idea when they walk into it, when they walk in to talk to me, and then we end up talking about all these other things and. And then eventually we kind of like spiral around into. Exactly. And they're like, oh, that's my ic. Right. But it takes a lot of looking around, wandering around in the dark, bumping into things in Order to be able to tell where you are when you're trying to look at the ic, right?
- [84:45]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, for sure, I guess for myself, for example, I have my Aquarius Rising and I have my 10th whole sign house of Scorpio. And I, when I have transits, I just had Mars go through my 10th whole sign house. And within 24 hours of Mars going into the 10th whole sign house, my website was crashed catastrophically and was hacked. And I dealt with that over the course of the past month, month and a half, as Mars is going through my tenth whole sign house. But then because my midheaven is early in Sagittarius, in my 11th whole sign house, I know that there's going to be continuation of 10th House themes as Mars goes in there. And it will add an additional element which is also 11th house themes when Mars goes in there. But I don't see experientially in terms of transits, a major distinction. Instead I just see a continuation of similar themes between those two. So that I'm not. Well, I haven't fully set down my final word on this. I'm not committed to that. There definitely is a conceptual distinction between, let's say, the whole sign versus the quadrant house placements. Sometimes people try to say maybe the quadrant house placements are more psychological and the whole sign placements are more literal. But the problem with that, I think, is that may just be a byproduct of people associating quadrant houses with modern astrology and whole sign with more predictive ancient Hellenistic or traditional astrology. So that may just be a temporary byproduct of where we find ourselves at this place in time rather than something that's true when you get down to it with charts.
- [86:27]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, I think that's not the case. I definitely resist, even though I have that psychological modern astrology training, I definitely understand the subjective and objective experiences to be a lot less different than people actually think and to be a byproduct of American cultural narcissism mostly. Right. And I basically, a lot of my work serves as a kind of antidote or repair to all the damage that has done throughout people's families. And I think accepting that the chart is both the whole world and that our experience of the world is representative in some way that is is valid and sort of repairing that disconnection. And so toward a distinction between the quadrant and the whole sign. I'm of the mercurial mind, right. I think that we can see everything in both likely and there's ways that understanding the Whole sign house approach, when we're thinking about the angles, especially when we were thinking about the midheaven IC especially, I do think it kind of reroutes us not just in the lineage of astrology, of hundreds and thousands and millennia of understanding the way that the earth and sky are so connected within these very elegant schemas. There's something so rich in that. But it's also a way that it allows Quadrant House cusps to be a tool in the toolkit that is grounded in these ways, that allows us, I think, more complexity and more nuance, in part because of the seeming simplicity of it.
- [88:34]
Chris Brennan
Right.
- [88:34]
Pallas K. Augustine
Which doesn't answer your question.
- [88:36]
Chris Brennan
Okay, well, maybe by the end of this. Okay, you have until the end of this episode to take the answer definitively. What are the greatest questions of modern contemporary astrology? So let me give just one more example, and then we'll get into the user submitted ones. This was a really good one that we found during the Third House series that my friend Nick Dagan Best had originally pointed out to me. But this is the birth chart of Jack Nicholson, and he was born with Leo rising. And the degree of the IC is in Libra in the third whole sign House, the place of siblings. And the ruler of this is a retrograde Venus, which is in Aries on the degree of the midheaven in the ninth Whole Sign House. So what was important about this example is that Jack Nicholson grew up believing that the person who was his biological mother was actually his sister, because she had him when she was younger out of wedlock, and it was in the 1930s, so it was more of a social or societal issue at the time where there would have been a stigma. So instead, his grandmother raised him, and he always grew up believing that his grandmother was his mother, which is also a Third House signification. We're getting grandparents here in the third House, and we're also getting siblings, and we're also getting parents. And it's funny because it's ruled by this retrograde Venus in Aries. And it's a weird situation with his mother and his grandmother. And the further bizarre part is he didn't learn about this until after both of them had already passed away. And our news reporter found out and approached him about it while he was promoting a movie. And he actually had to ask his older, I believe it was his sister about this, and she knew, and she had to fess up at that point and tell him that that was true. And it was like this huge moment for him that changed everything. He knew about his origins and his early life and the person he thought was his mother versus his sister and everything else. So I thought this was one of the most brilliant examples of having the ICE see the place of parents in the third whole sign house, which is the place of siblings, as well as other extended relatives that I've ever seen.
- [91:11]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. And having that Mars in sag with the north node in that trine and ruling the Venus midheaven too. And the fact that it did come out eventually is. Feels very prominent and tender as well, rather than it just staying a secret forever.
- [91:32]
Chris Brennan
Right. I mean, the other part is like Pluto's at 26 degrees of cancer, and it's like squaring the IC at 22 Libra, and it's also squaring that Venus, the ruler of the IC at 24 degrees of Aries. So there's this Pluto element to things in the 12th house and some of the. The secrecy and other types of significations that come up with the 12th.
- [91:56]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. And within a minute, that opposition with Jupiter ruling the Saturn 8th too, which of course is opposite the moon and the 12th, the other place that secrets like that are kept.
- [92:08]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. All right, so those are the last of my examples that I found while I've been doing this research over the past year. Tell me about some of the submissions that came in from listeners that have the IC and the third.
- [92:21]
Pallas K. Augustine
Okay, so I think we won't pull up charts for all of these because some of them are pretty quick, but we will pull up a chart for our first one, who is Gia. So that's the first third house. I see.
- [92:33]
Chris Brennan
So this is Gia's chart who has Taurus rising, the icing cancer in the third whole sign house.
- [92:38]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. So this is one of our youngest examples. I tried to allow for some representative spread sampling, but we were also looking for a certain amount of. Of representation in terms of chart ruler signs and things like that, and then also the actual experiences. So I didn't necessarily choose the absolute astrologer best examples or the most intense ones or things like that, but ones that gave a sort of nice overview of examples of what kinds of charts you might see. So, of course, this is the IC ruler with the ic, the Moon, in the third house. And so. And then we would expect the siblings to show up, especially in this one. And this is interesting and just like a content warning that I do mention stillbirth in this, although it's not graphic or anything like that. So GIA shares. I do not have any siblings, although I am a Rainbow baby. The stillbirth of my sister profoundly affected my family and resulted in my mother's mental decline and her passing. My immediate family is just my dad and me. We have the moon, we both have the moon in Cancer, sun in Pisces and Mercury in Aries. So there's a direct father connection as well. I have been blessed with friends who consider me to be siblings. They have offered me food, shelter and companionship. I've spent holidays with their families and siblings. I also have a close relationship with my dad's brother. So this is an uncle. This is more of that third house. Extended family, extended relatives. For someone with no living siblings, I'm very blessed with a multitude of sibling like relationships and also shares that basically everything in their chart ends back to that Mars and Scorpio and the Descendant, but except for the moon. And so they take the moon feels a lot of responsibility with the moon protecting home and the expansion of that to the Earth as home as well as loved ones is something that Jia writes and speaks about often. And so there's communication themes there too in being a writer.
- [95:03]
Chris Brennan
Nice, nice. I like that. This is a good example of what we were talking about earlier. It's a mixed example, but where there can sometimes be a negation of things because it's like we have Saturn and aries in the 12th house and it's sort of overcoming through a superior square the moon in Cancer and the IC in the third. And there's like this negation of the topic of siblings that happens. Was it an older sibling or a younger sibling? Did they specify would be older?
- [95:37]
Pallas K. Augustine
Because if they're considered a rainbow baby, that means that their parents had tried to have a child before and couldn't. And then they got their rainbow baby, who is the baby who comes often after miscarriage or stillbirth or just fertility struggles generally.
- [95:58]
Chris Brennan
Got it. Okay. Yeah, I was one of those as well. Sometimes one of the things that Rhetorius talks about in the 6th century is how the 12th house was like the sign that was rising prior to birth. And so sometimes it indicates that which happens prior to when you were born. And I think that's part of what's going on here as well in terms of the Saturn in the 12th and that overcoming square with the cancer planets. But then it's like you also have the two benefics are also in Aries overcoming that, sending in other testimony, more positive testimony to that third house which is helping to affirm the moon being in its own sign. So it's like you're getting a mixed case of negation from Saturn and then affirmation from Venus and Jupiter.
- [96:43]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, absolutely.
- [96:46]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. Okay, great.
- [96:47]
Pallas K. Augustine
Beautiful.
- [96:48]
Chris Brennan
Good example. So what's the next one?
- [96:50]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, I think this is our one Scorpio IC ruler example. So why don't you pull up the chart. So this is mega third house. It should be the next one.
- [96:58]
Chris Brennan
Here is the chart. So we're looking at Gemini rising with the IC in Leo chart.
- [97:05]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yes, Gemini rising, icy in Leo, sun in Scorpio with a whole stellium of Saturn, Sun, Moon, south node, Pluto and Venus. Nice. So this is an example of icy ruler in the 60s sixth and then also with the midheaven ruler. Co present with the icy ruler as well, which often shows up in a whole intensity of emphasis in whatever house it's in. And so even in a cadent house such as this one. So Meg shares that she has always been the black sheep of the family, despite being the oldest of four girls. So her siblings have a very significant impact of her life. Her sisters live conventional lives, stayed within a certain radius of where they grew up, all got married to men, have children versus Meg is single child free and moved to another state. She has typical sibling relationships with them. Sometimes they fight like crazy, sometimes they're besties. But they she feels a weird pressure to try and live up to their standards. Even though as the oldest I was supposed to pave the way. And she does reference the Sun Saturn conjunction as being part of this kind of. Which I suppose is almost an inferiority complex. She also shares that the 9 degree Leo which is her IC is also family lineage. That was her mom's moon to the degree and grandmother's Midheaven was also 9 degrees LEO. And so there's a bit of breaking away from this. I think the co presence with the moon in Scorpio and the Venus in Scorpio, let alone with the south node and Saturn in a night chart and Pluto too. It feels quite black sheep with all of that being ruled by a fifth house, Mars in library even.
- [99:12]
Chris Brennan
Right? Yeah, yeah. Just a night chart Saturn. And you have the most positive and challenging planet in Scorpio on either side of that sun as the ruler of the third house in the ic. And just you get a lot of the heaviness of those feelings of responsibility due to the Sun Saturn conjunction ruling that, as she said, 100%.
- [99:34]
Pallas K. Augustine
The sixth house comes in and she shares. She has always had an almost obsessive desire to control her siblings health from the standpoint of worrying about their Safety and wanting them to be healthy and well. I cannot stand about them being sick or hurt. I am the person who always sends my family articles about the latest diseases that has popped up, reminding them to get their vaccinations, panicking about COVID etc. But she also shares that this has caused friction in the family to the point that she put her foot down last year and didn't end up going home for Christmas for the first time ever because of some of these health concerns and the divisiveness and friction that she experienced in doing that, even though it was the right thing to do. So that's also very sixth separation from family, even when the family is that, oh, well, I guess. Also there's the fourth house being ruled by Virgo as well as the ascendant in Gemini. Right. Being in the seventh with the descendant in Sagittarius. And so that's also a planet in detriment. Having a lot of say over the situation.
- [100:44]
Chris Brennan
Sure. Having the ruler of the third house and the fourth house in the sixth house of illness and health and conjunct Saturn in a night chart. And just like you said, a feeling of distance or even alienation in that instance as a result of the focus on health issues related to the family and the siblings.
- [101:08]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, that's a really strong third house Leo example and kindness to Meg and of course everyone else sharing these very vulnerable, often painful things that we do often find at the ic.
- [101:24]
Chris Brennan
Definitely. All right, let's move on.
- [101:29]
Pallas K. Augustine
Let's see. Who do we want to do next? The next one, I think, is actually more of a midheaven example. So maybe you'll want this when you get around to doing that. We'll go to Victoria, who is a third house Libra. I see. And I love this example so much. This was one of my favorites.
- [101:55]
Chris Brennan
Okay, so we got Leo rising. We got the IC and late Libra in the third whole sign house, along with the sun, Mars and Mercury in a night chart.
- [102:03]
Pallas K. Augustine
Mm. Ruled by Venus and Sag in the fifth. And so when we're thinking about these house topics, we can see how the third, fourth and fifth get kind of pulled together in this example just so clearly. So Victoria shares. I am an only child, but have kept the same group of friends since middle school who feel like sisters to me in terms of neighbors. I've always made friends with and maintained friendships with my neighbors, even after I move. I also like to make friends with the people working at stores I frequent. This is so third house having like a neighborhood errand route As a third house person myself and experience extremely important aspect of third house life. And so Venus in Sag ruling the fifth. In the fifth rather. And she used to coordinate weddings and do floral design. Worked at a law firm for a few years after she became a mom, but now she's a stay at home mom. She spends most of her time doing third house things now. Driving around running errands, chatting with friends on the phone, shopping and always have some home decor project going on. So this is so icy. Really lucky at thrifting and finding cool stuff on the side of the road, which is technically my old neighbor's stuff. Right. I feel like that's such a. Such a cute. Such a cute example. And this is one of my favorite parts. And this is very dignified. Saturn opposite exalted Jupiter too. I feel like in the 6th and 12th, though we're not talking about that, but it feels relevant because it's square. All that stuff in the ic. So when she was doing floral design, she shares. I had a nonprofit that collected past sale by date flowers from local grocers and the arrangements from events I coordinated to give to hospice and long term care facilities. I wasn't aware of the astrology at the time, but in retrospect it tied in the third, driving around to pick up stuff from venues and markets. The fifth, creating floral designs. And 12th, where I have Jupiter in cancer, emotionally caring for people in institutions.
- [104:08]
Chris Brennan
Wow. Nice.
- [104:10]
Pallas K. Augustine
Spot on. Right? And she wasn't sure if we were going to follow up or not, so she shared. If y' all do this thing on Saturday and want to chat, would you please be so kind as to give me a heads up? I'll be at my neighbor's annual cowboy cookout party. Nice. This feels so like Venus and SAG 5th House ruling A Libra. I see.
- [104:31]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. The role of parties in association with the fifth house was something that was. I didn't not recognize. But it became much more prominent when we did the fifth house series. And I remember now there was one of the examples I forgot to include here was there was a listener who had the IC in the fifth whole sign house. And they said when they grew up their family was constantly hosting parties and that that was like a major part of their life and that the idea of hosting parties at home continued on into adulthood in a major way.
- [105:04]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yes, 100%. Yeah. We'll see some of that in a couple of the fifth house examples if we get to those ones.
- [105:11]
Chris Brennan
This example also brought up the topic of early childhood education like kindergarten through High school, basically, or anything below college. And how that really does, even though that's more of a modern thing, we really did see that come up very prominently in charts very frequently in the third house.
- [105:30]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. Well, when you think that even before such structured collective public school. Public schooling is fairly new. Right. In the history of humanity. And the idea that it was your neighbors, you had kids, it was the families, it was like your neighbors families were constantly taking in the kids. There is an early childhood childhood component to the third house. And also churches and temples. And these places were places. I mean, they still are to a certain extent, but in a more limited space. But they're places of childcare. And that feels like one of the connections to the third house. For sure.
- [106:07]
Chris Brennan
Totally. That makes so much sense. And also the idea that we even still have today sometimes of the image of your entire schooling is in your neighborhood or pretty local to you for your entire life until you hit that point when you're around 18 and then you go away to college and it's the first time for many people that you're moving out of your home. Or the image you see of parents helping their kid to move to college, across to a different state or something like that.
- [106:36]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, 100% third house things. I love that.
- [106:40]
Chris Brennan
Totally. All right, cool.
- [106:42]
Pallas K. Augustine
Let's pull up Amelia. Okay, There we go. This is a third house. Virgo. Virgo. I see. And this cancer rising Virgo third house is one of the most common third houses I see coming from where my clients are mostly, which is North America and Europe. So this is one that there was quite a few examples of. Real, real spot on things.
- [107:12]
Chris Brennan
And so cancer rising I see in late Virgo conjunct Saturn and Jupiter is also in the third whole sign house in Virgo with those two placements in a day chart.
- [107:24]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. And this one is. So there's quite a lot going on in this one. But the thing I want to pull out the most is that this person, she shares in my early school age years, which we were just talking about. I was boarded or privately fostered at to families so she could go to a better school while her mother worked in the city because the commute was too long daily. And the father left or abandoned their family when she was only six months old, which is. I feel like there's that Saturn on the IC hangs very heavy third house piece of this. And then we're looking at the Virgo IC with Mercury in Pisces with the Midheaven in the 9th. And so this boarding situation morphed into more long term situations when her mother left for up to three months out of the year to do solitary Buddhist retreats. And then. So then she. Yeah, so then she was boarded out to families in that Buddhist community and then eventually moved abroad. Her mother eventually moved abroad to be closer to her guru. So she was. She shares. She was colloquially called a Dharma brat. So she was born and raised as a white Westerner into a Tibetan Buddhist religion. And her whole childhood and all of the experiences, from early education to traveling abroad to being boarded out with other families, were dictated around the culture of this religious institution and mother's spiritual pursuits, for better or worse. And so we see this. Yeah, Midheaven ruler. Right. Midheaven ruler too. Jupiter being in Virgo with Saturn with the IC and that being like the mother's spiritual pursuits, creating displacement of her own from her family and then her moving abroad as well.
- [109:14]
Chris Brennan
Incredible. That's just absolutely incredible. And it's like, how would you get that without looking at it from this perspective and seeing. Because that's such a unique and complex delineation. But we can kind of see it perfectly here with that, you know, Saturn on the IC in the third whole sign house, ruled by Mercury in the ninth, by. I guess it's by sign and by quadrant. Yeah, that's just brilliant, though.
- [109:43]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. Cool.
- [109:46]
Chris Brennan
Okay.
- [109:47]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah.
- [109:48]
Chris Brennan
And then not to get. I mean, there's additional things that are being contributed by Venus ruling the fourth whole sign house and being placed in the 12th. But. But yeah, that's pretty good.
- [110:01]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, love that. Okay, so we'll do one more third house. Wait, is that right? Yeah, one more third house. So this is s. So this is another Virgo example. So this will give us some ability to sort of see how different Mercury's function.
- [110:17]
Chris Brennan
Okay, so we got cancer, rising cancer rising. IC in Virgo in the third with Jupiter. And the ruler this time is Mercury in Aries in the tenth whole sign house.
- [110:30]
Pallas K. Augustine
Mm. So my IC is in third whole sign house, but also another one without actual siblings. Only child. Childhood was notably very isolating and lonely. My parents were refugees, so this involved a lot of administrative work on my part as a child, as I could read and write English better than them even from an early early age. Unfortunately, these responsibilities have carried on into my adult life. I also have Jupiter stationing direct in my third house, so I think it's an important house for me. And then the ruler being Mercury in aries in the 10th. Dad started a business when I was a teenager, and my mom and I started working for him, I've now been running that business as they are no longer able to because of their age and bad health. I have to do this for a couple more years as it supports them financially until they reach retirement age. So that 10th house ruler being such a visible part of their life and being such an important large part of their life, but at the same time being in the 10th versus their actual midheavens in the 9th. And so it's not necessarily what they want to be doing or what they would feel compelled to do, but is a major part of their story. And the translation, immigration paperwork piece of things is that Jupiter in Virgo with the IC in the third. It's really spot on.
- [112:02]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, that's really interesting. Just the travel component of the third house is really important here. And obviously they have ninth house stuff going on with the moon and Mars there in a day chart. But the I see in the third house and just how all of the declining houses, the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th, can bring in travel significations and that element of the parents being refugees and then because they could read and write English better than their parents, how they often would have ended up helping them to communicate, basically. Which is the third house component, but it's being brought into play for the parents, which is the ic.
- [112:48]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Also shared. We moved a lot when I was a child. Maybe 20 times. This was common whilst you were waiting for permanent residency. Sometimes this made it so I had to travel to school for two hours each way. Other times I was just a 10 minute walk from school. So that feels. That's so Virgo ic. Third house. Yeah. With the Jupiter and Virgo down there too.
- [113:16]
Chris Brennan
Absolutely. Yeah. So moving around IC constantly was causing issues with early childhood schooling and a feeling of unsettledness there.
- [113:26]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah.
- [113:27]
Chris Brennan
Nice.
- [113:28]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah.
- [113:29]
Chris Brennan
All right.
- [113:31]
Pallas K. Augustine
Fifth house.
- [113:33]
Chris Brennan
Okay. So that's it for the third house. Okay, that was good. So that was really good. I think we saw a lot of good elements and we brought in almost all of the significations that we mentioned at the beginning and also remembered some new ones during the course of that. So that is the IC in the third whole sign house. So now we're going to skip the 4th IC in the 4th whole sign house and we're going to jump into our other big section and I think it's actually our last section with the degree of the IC in the fifth whole sign house.
- [114:03]
Pallas K. Augustine
Mm. Yeah.
- [114:04]
Chris Brennan
What are our fifth house significations? I just did a whole episode on this. Are things like primarily children, the fifth House indicates the topic of children, but the fifth house also indicates, traditionally, the place of pleasures and fun and enjoyment. It can indicate games and leisurely activities. It can also relate heavily to the topic of sex and sexuality. Comes up as very prominent with the fifth house. Is there any other major things I forgot to mention?
- [114:34]
Pallas K. Augustine
Those are most of them, for sure. Yeah. Like art being a big one. Art and children. Literal babies.
- [114:44]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. Creativity. The idea or the concept of creation or that which you create as well as that which you contribute, and through your contribution or creation of that, that which may survive you or become part of your legacy in some sense.
- [115:00]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, 100%.
- [115:02]
Chris Brennan
Maybe I should give really quickly some of my ones that we've already given in the other series, some of my celebrity ones. So one of those was Francis Ford Coppola, who's a famous movie director who directed the Godfather and Apocalypse now and a bunch of other things like that. He was born with care. Capricorn Rising and the IC is in Taurus in the fifth Whole sign House. And one of the things that he would do that was really important to him is that he would bring his family wherever he was shooting a movie, even if that was in a different country, he would uproot the entire family and take them all over there. So famously, when he shot Apocalypse now in, I think it was like the Philippines or somewhere, he took his entire family over there for months, even though it ended up being a famously long and troubled and sort of disastrous production, which I think his wife even shot a documentary about at one point that was released later and became very famous. But that was shooting movies and stuff. It was a family affair. And then, of course, through that, one of the things he did very early on is he started collaborating on films with his daughter, Sofia Coppola. And then he taught her, and she learned a lot about filmmaking through the process of growing up with a famous director dad, and then ended up acting in one of his films, the Godfather 3, which didn't go super well. But then later on, she became a famous director in her own right at this point and established herself. So this important fourth house family component with the IC and fifth house creativity component.
- [116:54]
Pallas K. Augustine
Oh, yeah, that's spot on. I love that Venus Jupiter in Pisces.
- [117:00]
Chris Brennan
So get this. Sofia Coppola was born with Aquarius Rising, and the IC is in Gemini in the fifth whole sign House. So it's like, then you think about that from her perspective, and she grows up with a famous creative father who works together with her and helps to support and encourage her own creative impulses and endeavors and things like that. And that was actually a common theme that I found in the Fifth House series when the IC was there. When the ruler of the fourth was in the fifth, was having a family a scenario where imagine if your family is supportive of your creative endeavors in some sense, especially if it's well placed, as opposed to sometimes the opposite. If, let's say, your family is not supportive of your creative endeavors.
- [117:53]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. With the Mercury there, too, and the sign Trine, with the Jupiter ruling and. Right on the midheaven.
- [118:02]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. So one of the themes that did come up sometimes, though, with the IC in the Fifth House is some of the contemporary discussions about nepotism when one is getting roles or something, let's say, in acting or in other fields, partially as a result of their family connections, let's say. So, for example, Sofia Coppola was cast, I think, as a teenager in the Godfather 3. And then a lot of critics panned her performance or said it wasn't very good, and that sort of criticized her acting. And it was actually a very tough experience for her. But then in the future, she ended up going more into directing rather than acting and became a successful and famous director in her own right eventually and established herself. But sometimes that topic can come into play in contemporary discussions or that's one area where we can see where some of those contemporary discussions can come from.
- [119:01]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. And even with her sun, Saturn, too, in the actual fourth. Right. And the expectations that can come with the expectations that then lead to sort of public vulnerability feels wrapped up in that signature as well.
- [119:16]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, well, and that's the thing about both of them is even though I'm focusing on the IC here, the really interesting thing about both of their charts is that both of them, she has Aquarius rising with the ruler of the ascendant Saturn in the fourth house of Home and Parents. And she has this really famous father, and her family is really important to her. Although, like I just said, she had that really difficult time as a teenager where her father cast her in this huge movie, the third movie in the Godfather series after the follow up of the first two movies that were widely hailed as two of the most important or most successful movies of the 20th century. And then she plays a prominent role in that, but then just gets panned by critics. And I'm sure that was a really difficult experience. And interestingly, he has Capricorn Rising, but then he also has Saturn in Aries in the fourth Whole Sign House. And the part about that for him that was interesting as well, is he was selected as the director of the Godfather movie, and he did it. And part of the reason it worked out was because of his family background, because he had Italian heritage as an Italian American and coming from an Italian American family. And he incorporated that into directing the movie. And that's part of what made the movie more authentic in terms of the Godfather as a representation of the Italian American experience. So there's a lot of things that is very important about the fourth whole sign house placement here. It's not all just about the. I see. But you can see how both of those sort of work in tandem.
- [120:54]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, absolutely. Especially the fifth house ruler in the third. And that being like a generational signature feels very potent in this example.
- [121:06]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, that's a great point. Because it's like that Venus rules the IC in the fifth house of creativity, as well as the tenth whole sign house of career, and it's exalted in the third whole sign house, which is especially communication and things like that. One of the funny things about that is he had. His father was a musician, and he had his father score, I think, one or two of the Godfather movies, and his father won an Academy Award for it, I think.
- [121:34]
Pallas K. Augustine
So.
- [121:34]
Chris Brennan
That's pretty cool. Yeah.
- [121:36]
Pallas K. Augustine
Film sets are so third house in so many ways, too. It can be so chaotic and there's so much going on.
- [121:45]
Chris Brennan
So two other examples. One of them, this is Torre Spelling's chart with Aquarius rising, and Saturn is in the fifth whole sign house in Gemini, along with Venus and the IC in a night chart. So you have the most positive planet, the most challenging planet there in the fifth house of creativity with the IC of parents. And her father was a famous television producer, Aaron spelling, in the 1960s and 70s and 80s. And in the 1990s, he created a new television series called 90210 that was about teenagers, but he cast his teenage daughter, who's Tori Spelling, in one of the lead roles. And in the 90s, going way back over 30 years ago, this is one of the earliest discussions I remember hearing about ideas of nepotism and having a famous parent who's casting their child in a role and whether the child is up for it acting wise, or if there's a disparity between them and other actors and things like that. We don't have to get into the pros and cons of whether that was true or different things like that, but just the fact that there were discussions like that taking place surrounding her father putting her in a role like this is interesting as a parallel with Sofia Coppola, for example.
- [123:07]
Pallas K. Augustine
Mm. And Venus right on the IC there.
- [123:10]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, yeah. And Saturn.
- [123:14]
Pallas K. Augustine
Mm. Yeah. And with those gifts. And then also. Yeah. Becoming a superstar of her own accord after that, despite that.
- [123:24]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, absolutely. And then finally, I believe the last example I was gonna share here that we had found was just the brain charge of Billie Jean King, who is a tennis champion. And she was born with Capricorn rising. And the IC is in Taurus in the fifth whole sign house, the place of games and sports. And the ruler of the fifth house is Venus in the tenth whole sign house of career, dignified and very well placed in its domicile, in its own sign of Libra. And Billie Jean King grew up in a very athletic family where both her father and her mother were athletic and they were very, very supportive of athletics and eventually of Billie Jean King herself getting into sports. But it was in a very supportive, loving context where when she would come home from playing a game, they wouldn't ask her, did you win? They would ask her instead, did you have fun? Did you have a good time? And so the. In this instance, the positive indications were having a supporting parental situation. I see within the context of her playing sports and games, which is the fifth house, and then that ultimately leading eventually to her having major career success, which is Venus in the 10th House of Career in its own domicile and becoming a leading tennis player in the world at some point in the future as an adult.
- [124:54]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, that's a really impressive one.
- [124:57]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. So it's just a good idea of how sometimes the IC can tell you what is the support system like in terms of your parents or your early home situation, and how does that contribute sometimes to the other topics of the house that it falls in?
- [125:12]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, absolutely. And you see that so starkly in the fifth house. ICs for the people who are artists or are creators of some kind, because is the presence or absence of support. Right. And I feel like this is that negation that you're speaking of too, is because there can be an emphasis there when really what we're seeing is an absence of support for their art careers, etc.
- [125:38]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You've got to be open to the inversion of that or the negation of that, not just the affirmation like hers is a great chart because it's like. Like the ruler especially is super well placed. So there's a positive affirmation of that. But in the other instances you could have, let's say, whatever the most challenging Scenario is that we could possibly imagine connected with the IC in the fifth house. And let's say the parents were the opposite, that they were not supportive or they didn't believe that that person could do that as like a career. And therefore they told them to get it a real job and that they didn't follow their creative dreams in the end as a result of an unsupportive parent, let's say. Or one of the things we commonly see with the fifth house ic. With the fifth house and the IC there, especially in contemporary times, could be if there's issues with sexual orientation. And let's say the native is gay, but that their parents are not supportive of that, for example, so that there's a tension there between parents and the fifth house of sexual orientation can sometimes come up as a topic or theme.
- [126:52]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is where it really serves us, especially as consulting astrologers, also just people who care about astrology in expanding our ideas of what the IC can offer too, because so much. I mean, I'm a practitioner in training in the Dr. Daniel Foer's ancestral medicine program as well. And so I think a lot about the ancestors in tandem with the IC work and understanding that especially queer people have so many ancestors of queerness and ancestors of culture and ancestors of art with which to relate actively with. And in this supportive way, even if the bio family is estranged or downright harmful, it can be, especially for folks who have that IC in the fifth and who are artists. This can just be such a powerful realization to be like, oh yeah, I actually am part of so many lineages that just aren't fourth house y kind of stuff. Right. They are in the way that they are this grounding. But they're not necessarily my family of origin. I'm not limited to that. And I like, feel. Feel like we see a lot of that. Especially I work with a lot of queer clients and I see a lot of that in my practice as well.
- [128:16]
Chris Brennan
Absolutely. That's a great point. I'm glad you said that.
- [128:19]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. I think we want to pull up Caro's chart, which is the fifth house Aries example. This relates to the performing piece and the childhood performance piece piece. And she wrote really eloquently about it. So we're seeing a sag rising chart with an Aries ic. And this is another example of the ruler of the IC being on the ic. I feel like these ones are really instructive from a teaching perspective because they're just such distillations. Okay. So Caro shares. I have my IC in Aries in my fifth house with my natal ruler, Mars. I grew up with parents that would have explosive fights, verbal sometimes turning physical. And then the next day, both parents seemingly moving on as if nothing happened. They eventually divorced and both moved on, remarried very quickly. My mom has been remarried several times now. My stepdad, who she divorced, is an Aries son and an army veteran. And it was in my life since I was a little girl. So that's also especially with Mars Y ICs we see presence of military often. I got along with him great and he was actually a calming presence. But the mom who we're looking at this Venus in Libra in the midheaven in part for that. And then we're also thinking about the 10th House ruler, Sun in Scorpio, which I feel like we can see both of these on and off. Off. The mom is often instigating the arguments. And oh one aside here because she mentions a Disney World connection. There were so many Disney World and Disneyland connections in the fifth house IC examples, which just feels like very spot on for fifth house. And then this is the part where we get into real fifth house stuff. So dance and performing played a big part of my childhood. And as a form of escapism from the turbulence in my home, for example, I would often be at a dance studio for hours taking classes. And I was part of a dance company competition team. It felt like a home away from home. I not only felt more seen and recognized by others when I was performing, but often received much joy and fulfillment from this one year. I received an award for best performer of the dance company. When my parents divorced and I had to move and leave my dance studio of many years. It was a deeply painful time in my life. Life. And then also she mentions being active at summer camp and that being one of her favorite times of year. So adds summer camp to fifth house significations as well.
- [131:02]
Chris Brennan
I love that. That's great. Yeah, that's a really good example of. It's a day chart. So Mars is the more challenging planet. It is dignified in its own sign, which helps. Helps a bit. And then it also has a nice sextile with Jupiter in early Gemini, which is also offsetting and affirming things a bit. But a lot of the early experience of that was in the conflict between the parents, which is Mars, conjunct the IC and their separation, which is Mars. But then how their outlet and one of the ways of getting away from that was channeling that into the creative Impulse, which is also very strong, which is the fifth house.
- [131:46]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. And seeing this really strong expression of the Mars opposite Venus with the IC in midheaven really doubling down on all those significations and with the moon wrapped up in there with Trine and Sextile in her first feels like it really brings all that forward. And she's obviously very articulate about this experience and very aware of it and. And it's like a very felt, very felt experience for her. And I think oftentimes that's kind of how we get to see these IC stories is when they do just come to awareness and we're able to articulate them. And even that process itself can be really healing and attentive to a lot of the childhood wounds that we do tend to hold at our ic.
- [132:38]
Chris Brennan
Definitely. Yeah. That was a cool keyword though, that. The home away from home I see was at the dance company studio, basically the place of creativity, the place of the creative outlet. So that's a good one. I'm going to put in my memory banks for the future as an archetypal outcome of that placement.
- [132:59]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. And I think even just like I see not in the fourth Home away from Home feels like it covers a lot of the basis of that. We'll pull up Ellie. This one's really quick, but I want us to see it in comparison to this one in part. So this is another Aries sagittarizing Aries ic. But rather than Mars on the IC in Aries we have Mars with the midheaven in Libra with also Venus and Libra up there. And so this is Ellie and she shares that. My father was a theatre impresario in London's West End and in his younger years was a musician in the London Symphony Orchestra. My mother was a ballerina for the Royal Ballet. So we have Venus and Mars in Libra in the midheaven, quite far away from the IC and from her moon, which is also in the IC and in a very tight opposition to that Mars. And so she says that she doesn't quite see the direct connection, but she did choose to do the polar opposite to her parents for a career and that her parents were disappointed. So instead of going into the arts, she went into economics. And also that she devoted her life to her daughter who has represented her career for the last decade or so.
- [134:29]
Chris Brennan
Okay, so the initial part of the delineation makes sense. Both of the parents were creatives with the IC in the fifth whole sign House. But then she chose not to follow in the parents creative direction. Which is like the ruler of the fifth in the IC being Mars in the sign of its antithesis or exile which is in Libra in the 11th whole sign house with the midheaven. And then what's the bit about the.
- [135:02]
Pallas K. Augustine
And then. So her daughter has represented her career for the last decade or so. And then she also chose economics rather than going into the arts. So having that. And I wonder if we could see. Yeah. So having just the choosing to do the direct opposite of what your parents do. I feel like is a very moon icy opposite the rulers opposite your midheaven experience. And then also this is where that very direct delineation of IC in the 5th and this came up in numerous examples of people saying I didn't really have that much connection to my family until I had children. And then my children became my family. And that seems to be a very common fifth house experience.
- [135:49]
Chris Brennan
Right? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Okay. And decided to study economics. The ruler of the 8th is in the 5th. Which could be part of the tension there in terms of the parents and the focus on financial matters causing attention. The ruler of the second is Saturn in the ninth and studying financial matters there's interesting. Just like additional pieces I might connect in or at least when I hear certain keywords I look at certain houses and look at what the ruler is doing.
- [136:26]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. If I was to follow up with this person I would probably ask about their spouse. So consider what this Jupiter in Gemini is contributing especially to that. That Mercury to the Libra by Trine to see how that's sort of sweetened and probably also complicated. Because I would consider that to probably be part of this departure from her family because it's almost a separate signature. And then also to. I would be so curious to know if Ellie's kid likes art. That would be one of my other questions.
- [137:06]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. Having the ruler of the ascendant in the seventh whole sign house is definitely directing the life or showing a major focus on relationships. And then the other sort of gravity where a lot of the gravity of the charts being focused on is also towards the 11th house here with that steli. The 11th whole sign house. But that's the opposite end that maybe we'll have to do a follow up episode on someday. It's just the fact that all those planets are also co present with the MC. So we got that Libra Stellium is in the 11th house and getting 11th house friends, groups, alliances, signification. But also with the MC there it's getting career significations. At the same time.
- [137:46]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. I feel like professional artists are such a specific element of the population and that if you grew up with multiple, let alone in. I feel like the uk, where it's probably. I mean, class is involved often as well. And I feel like if you choose to divert from that, there's a lot going into that decision. And I feel like a lot of that comes probably from that 11th house. Stellium.
- [138:13]
Chris Brennan
Okay. Yeah, for sure. All right.
- [138:17]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. We do have an icy ruler in the seventh. That sort of piggybacks on this, but it's a different sign. So we have ebru, which is in Aquarius ic.
- [138:30]
Chris Brennan
There we go. So this is a Libra rising chart with the IC in Aquarius.
- [138:37]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. And then we have Saturn in Aries in the seventh co present with Venus too, and with the sun. So this is another one where we have the icy ruler and Midheaven ruler together, which is often part of a conversation. And the Ascendant ruler as well, being Venus, of course. And so. Okay, so EBRU shares. Love is a very important concept in my family. My mother and father were very much in love, and my mother got pregnant and they had to get married. They separated, although very much in love, and got married again when I was seven. Separated again three years later. My grandmother was very much in love with a married man and they had an on and off relationship. Relationship for 40 years. My grandmother, my mother and me, we all had off marriage pregnancies at a very early age. Also, creativity is an important part of my home. I grew up in a home with lots of literature and poem reading. I never had children. My partner is now a sculptor and I paint at home too. So we have many artworks at home. Like, that really wraps up the seventh house, fifth House significations, quite astutely.
- [139:47]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. That's incredible. I love that they brought up the concept of love just because that was a major one. That came out during the course of the fifth House series. And we actually, I think, culminated some of our. Maybe it was our Ruler of the Ascendant episode talking about Bell Hook's books, where in, like the later. There was different eras in Bell Hook's career. But it seemed like in the later phases of Bell Hook's career, she really was like, focused on the concept of love as this transformative element that had to be reconceptualized. But once it was reconceptualized, it could be a positive counteracting influence for communities and for the world in a very significant way. And that there was A whole fifth house stellium or a fifth house emphasis that was driving a lot of that is what we saw.
- [140:39]
Pallas K. Augustine
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. All about love. Yeah. I mean, the fifth house as the Joy of Venus is very, very loud in a lot of these IC examples. So it's funny when you're working with third house ices, working with that Joy of the Moon idea, and then with fifth house icies, working with that Joy of Venus, it really brings out some really stunning things that you might not necessarily notice otherwise until you're talking with someone and. And asking these questions. And this is often what comes out.
- [141:13]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But it's interesting how in both instances it was like the theme or the topic of love was like a major factor in terms of the parents and bringing them together at different points. And then also with the grandparents in this instance as well.
- [141:31]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. And then of course, cause the. The seventh house planets, so this icy ruler, midheaven ruler, ascendant ruler, are all ruled by that Mars in the third as well. And so we see a little bit of that coming in too, in terms of these generational patterns of grandparents and extended family and those being presences in the fifth house stories.
- [141:54]
Chris Brennan
Right. So the IC is in Aquarius in the fifth whole sign. So it's ruled by Saturn in the seventh. But it's also Saturn in a night chart. So it's a more challenging placement. And so sometimes the parents, there were challenges with the marriage and the marriage, they moved away from it at different points. But then also it's conjunct Venus in a night chart, which is the most positive planet. So you're getting extremes of some of the greatest challenges and then some of the most positive things. And the parents, early in the life, part of the experience of that was the parents playing out that dynamic of this dynamic of attraction and being brought together by love and then being pushed apart as well at different points with Saturn.
- [142:41]
Pallas K. Augustine
And this brings in a little bit of that moon too. But she also shares that since I changed homes so many times. So we see that in the fourth house, fifth house piece of it. I see divorced, two marriages. I fell in love so many times. I feel like that's such a seventh house stellium ruling the ic just being so foundational to one's life. I bought my house with so many challenges and then had a legal battle with my second husband about the house. So here we're seeing, I think, the Saturn in fall two aspect of it on top of the night chart. And it's of it in the Eighth house as well, but all ruling that ic and just able to articulate it and being so prominent to her identity in life.
- [143:33]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, that's really good. The ruler of the 4th and the ruler of the IC, and the 7th, a Saturn in a night chart and having a separation, a divorce from a partner where there's a dispute over the. The home, basically in the living situation.
- [143:48]
Pallas K. Augustine
Oh, and I just saw she's also born on Venus. Day and hour, too.
- [143:53]
Chris Brennan
Nice. Nice.
- [143:54]
Pallas K. Augustine
That's really sweet. All right, Anything else? So the other Aquarius example that we have is an. And this one's really quick, but I think we should look at it because it's so astrologer. Good. There we go. This is an. Also an Aquarius IC with Libra rising. And this is Saturn in cancer in the 10th house versus, of course, the midheaven has Mars and Leo on it in the 11th. And they share. My father is an accomplished obstetrician who delivered thousands of babies. Many of the babies were of famous lineage, like babies of famous people or sports heroes, et cetera. It's like you see the tenth house angularity, I feel like, come on so strongly as the ruler of the ic. But then she also shares that her immediate family was broken apart by a romantic affair. And it's been very hard at times also.
- [145:01]
Chris Brennan
Right, yeah. That was a major theme that came up with the fifth house is not just babies, but also sometimes. And not just love, but also romantic affairs. And that other side of the fifth house, which is, on the one hand, physical passion, and that is a driving factor, as well as sometimes the overlapping things of people falling in love with different people and that creating ambiguity and sometimes pulling them in different directions.
- [145:33]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The fifth house there was. I mean, in this sort of negation or absence. The fifth house contains a lot of difficult experiences, too. Right. Like fertility challenges, which we don't have any examples with that, but we're in a few of the examples, of course, and we already heard with miscarriage and stillbirth being. That was the third house example. But we see so much of that when we talk about families, Fifth house stories, especially when they're difficult. Yeah. And also connections between that sort of pleasure, joy, partying, lifestyle, which can spiral into addiction. And when we're dealing with the ic, especially if it's with hard planets or ruled by planets in difficult positions as well, that that stuff gets inherited. And people carry lineages and trauma around that even if they weren't necessarily impacted directly, it can impact people for generations and generations. And I think when you have a fifth house ic, that is something that can come up for sure.
- [146:49]
Chris Brennan
Absolutely. Yeah. I love the core of this example, though. The father helped to deliver babies with the ic, the father in the fifth house of children. And then they were often like famous babies or coming from famous families. With the ruler of the fifth house in IC in the tenth whole sign house of career and the public and reputation.
- [147:13]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. And with the moon Jupiter in the 6th, which I'm sure has many expressions for this person, but as one of them being in charge of that Saturn, you know, having like, a little bit of the bona fiing support of it, so that it's not just, you know, there's. You can see that Saturn in cancer and why it's got more juice than you might think otherwise.
- [147:42]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. All right.
- [147:44]
Pallas K. Augustine
I love that.
- [147:45]
Chris Brennan
Definitely.
- [147:46]
Pallas K. Augustine
I think we should pull up Carina, who's our Gemini IC example.
- [147:54]
Chris Brennan
Here we go.
- [147:55]
Pallas K. Augustine
This is just a very sweet, beautiful one that pulls on the children association.
- [148:01]
Chris Brennan
So this is Aquarius rising with the IC in Gemini in the fifth whole sign house.
- [148:06]
Pallas K. Augustine
Mm. And so Carina's IC ruler is Mercury in Aquarius. Right. With the ascendant. It's retrograde, but it feels very potent to me. So Karina shares. I grew up as a multiracial Yoruba Nigerian in diaspora. Both my sister and me have the IC in the fifth whole sign house. And we have both relied heavily on our artistic practices to connect with our Nigerian heritage. She is a visual artist and graphic novelist, and I'm a writer. Since I was a teenager, I've used fiction and poetry writing as an opportunity to imagine the familial ancestry and stories that I'm disconnected from and to feel a sense of connection with my roots. So here we have the writer artist aspect of a fifth house ic literally using writing to connect with roots and with the ruler being Mercury on the ascendant. And then they also share. I am also one of those people who has been dreaming up names for my future children since I was a child myself. So by now I have dozens of baby names compiled to draw upon when I do have a kid. Not only is this a super Yoruba thing, brackets, it's common for people to have eight to 10 given names in our culture. Imagining my future children has always been grounding for me. The IC in the fifth feels like being grounded in imaginaries of the future.
- [149:29]
Chris Brennan
I love that. That's beautiful.
- [149:31]
Pallas K. Augustine
Oh, so gorgeous.
- [149:33]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. This makes a lot of sense. It's connected with one example I didn't bring over into this because I had already used it twice in the fourth and fifth house episodes, I think. But there was a listener and patron named Ola Bempe who had the IC in the fifth house, I believe. And also there were things about her father and her family lineage and place of origin that she was incorporating into her creative output, and that was a really important thing in her life. I love this example because this sort of complements that one as well and it reminds me of it.
- [150:09]
Pallas K. Augustine
I love that. Yeah, it's so spot on.
- [150:15]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. So the family and family roots and origins sometimes inspiring one's creative output or provides a nice archetypal parallel with the Billie Jean example where it was like a supportive, athletic family that was supporting the natives pursuit of sports in a joyful and positive way. And even though those are completely different in terms of the focus of sports versus art, you can see we're starting to get to understand the code underlying that placement a little bit and how there can be an archetypal similarity there.
- [150:59]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, yeah. Super spot on. I love the thinking about the fourth house south node too, and the Venus with Jupiter with the midheaven. Right. And so it's like even this absence and this disconnection that they feel related to fourth house topics ends up fueling the art and the writing that they do feels and contributes to their own sense of identity. And that feels like a way that I see in the fifth can also describe a dislocation from fourth house topics in a more expected kind of conventional way.
- [151:42]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. All right, what else do we got?
- [151:47]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. So we have another one that speaks to the fifth house home, bringing in the fourth house topics into the fifth house. So we'll pull up Elodie, who is our Pisces icy example here.
- [152:06]
Chris Brennan
I had an issue finding the location for this chart. We might have to describe it.
- [152:12]
Pallas K. Augustine
Okay, I'll just describe it.
- [152:14]
Chris Brennan
Solar fires. Not doing me any fire. Although I could just animate it and roughly recreate the chart even if I don't have it exactly right.
- [152:28]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. Quebec place names. As a Canadian myself, I've had to wrangle with Quebec place names often in my practice.
- [152:39]
Chris Brennan
Shout out to Elodie. Apology to Elodie. I know Elodie is an astrologer and yeah, this is not going to be exact, but it's a Scorpio rising chart with the IC in Pisces in the fifth whole sign house.
- [152:52]
Pallas K. Augustine
Mm. And this is a Jupiter in Virgo example too, with Jupiter with the midheaven in the 11th as well. And so Elodie shares. I have a Pisces IC in the fifth house and I grew up in a house filled with music. My dad as a musician and a lute. And so I had to look that up actually. But it's someone who restrings and actually crafts musical instruments. He is also a Pisces Sun, Venus, Mercury. So we have the father association with the ic. Both my grandparents on my maternal side have strong Pisces signatures. My mom is a midwife and I grew up very closely with the world of pregnancy and babies. My mom delivered my three younger brothers at home. That is such a spot on. I saw some. There's some other examples with people growing up with daycares with fifth house ic. And Elodie also shares. I was brought up Baha', I, which has a lot to do with the universality of mankind and the acceptance of all religion as basis for peace in the world, which is so ruler of the IC in Pisces in the 5th, in the 11th with them in heaven. I always made a lot of art at home growing up and my first job was being a singer and songwriter. I lived near the ocean, growing up next to the St. Lawrence River. If you know, you know, I do know. It's basically living beside the ocean. The St. Lawrence river is huge. Even though I moved a lot and lived even though I moved a lot and ended up living on the island of Newfoundland for the past 20 years, surrounded by water, very Piscean reality, living here in the fog. I think this is such a beautiful Pisces, icy kind of Jupiter in the 11th, going and exploring and then kind of coming home to the primordial soup of where your IC is, I feel like happens to a lot of people. And so this Pisces IC being born next to the river and then leaving it and then coming back to the ocean feels really, really spot on too.
- [155:00]
Chris Brennan
Nice.
- [155:00]
Pallas K. Augustine
I like that she shares. I've always felt that my Pisces IC is who I am deep inside. I usually look at the IC to gauge where people's roots are planted and mine are planted in the elusive spiritual waters of Pisces.
- [155:15]
Chris Brennan
Beautiful. I love that.
- [155:16]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, this is just gorgeous. I feel like also this is an interesting thing about how earlier in life she was an artist, like a singer, songwriter. And I mean, I still think of Elodie as an artist, but that sort of distinct phases of life and I mean there's all kinds of ways like triplicity ways, et cetera, to look at this, but I think there's with fifth house ICs. Depending on what's happening with the midheaven and the midheaven rulers, people don't always bring those formative artistic experiences with them into their adult life. Right. And sometimes it's really important when people are working with their IC and just working with their chart in order to recover some of that. And sometimes it's just. It stays back there, you know, it just stays. But, like, recognizing the foundations and, like, how important those third house, those fifth house experiences were and still are to, like, foundation and grounding is a really beautiful thing that looking at the IC can give to people, even if those topics aren't as relevant in their adult lives.
- [156:25]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And you mentioned basically the 11th House component with the ruler of the fifth IC in the 11th House and Elodie talking about growing up in the Baha' I faith and emphasizing that it was a big community of people that came together to pray and celebrate. And so there was this major community element to things.
- [156:51]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. And, I mean, I don't know a lot about the Baha' I faith, but I know enough to know it's quite a global phenomenon. Right. And that it really. Not only in the way that it. What phrase did Elodie use? One planet, one people. Right. Which is so 11th house in terms of that. Yeah. Just considering humanity. Right. And the kind of ideology that underpins that, which does feel quite virgoan and very, very Jupiterian.
- [157:27]
Chris Brennan
Right. Definitely. Brilliant. All right, That's a great example. Shout out to Elodie for submitting that.
- [157:33]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. So because you shared a Taurus example, I think I'm only gonna share one of the Taurus examples, and this will be our last one.
- [157:42]
Chris Brennan
Actually, one last thing. One thing that Elodie's chart reminded me of, just a thing that was mentioned in passing, was how she mentioned parent having placements in early Pisces. Right. So that's a really important element here. And I did a short video about that a month or two ago, because that's another element that we literally can't see from just the birth chart itself. And yet it plays a crucial role in sometimes determining how one chart that has, let's say, the IC in the fifth house, let's say it's almost the exact same placement, like the same degrees. You'll have one person that was born in a hospital on that day, born into a family where they have their mother has a Venus Jupiter conjunction on the degree of the IC in the fifth whole sign house, and then you'll have another person born that has the same degree of the IC in the fifth whole sign house, but their mother has, let's say, a Mars, Saturn, Pluto conjunction or something on the degree of the IC in the fifth whole sign house. And therefore, from our limited vantage point, unfortunately as astrologers, if we just look at the birth chart, we see a similarity on the surface level there between those two placements of. Of the potentiality of pointing us in IC fifth house direction of that being important area of the life. But the person's experience may be wildly different based on the synastry they have with their parents birth chart, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.
- [159:26]
Pallas K. Augustine
Absolutely. Hundred percent, yeah. And I think we'll mention this briefly at the end, but my upcoming talk at UAC is actually called the ICN Relationship. And it's about more than just that kind of familial relationship. But we will be in part looking at that because it does. I mean, it's our environment, right? And of course it's not just our familial environment, it's also the land where we grew up. It's everything environmental that contributes to that ic. But when it comes to the number of connections you can trace through whether and even just whether or not the IC sign shows up in a family like it often does as being quite important, but then sometimes it doesn't, right? And the IC is actually this strange kind of oddball zodiacally in an intermediate family unit. And that says something as well. Like that says part of the story about how this person might feel displaced from their immediate family and how that contributes to their ideas of basically everything but, you know, especially themselves and what's possible when it comes to that kind of connection.
- [160:39]
Chris Brennan
Definitely. Yeah, that's a really good point. And it also brings in an element of. While we talked earlier about how the placement in the natal chart could be receiving affirming aspects from the benefics or negating aspects from the malefics that are saying yes or no to those topics. The synastry will functionally do the same thing where if you have positive synastry from a parent or a family member that's supporting that placement, it may affirm it in a good way, but if there's challenging things, it could be negating it. And our challenge as astrologers, unfortunately is our viewpoint sometimes is limited in terms of not being able to take into account all charts at all times and everything else. But it's an important element when researching this topic that can be like an X factor that can Send a wildcard that. That is sometimes hard to account for, but sometimes when you're living it, like if you are, for example, Elodie, in that case, she knows what parent has stuff in early Pisces and how that's contributing to things. But as a consulting astrologer, sometimes it's a little tricky.
- [161:51]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Love the question asking in the book, actually. I say the IC is a place of questions, because you basically have to ask questions in order to be able to tell what's going on there. That's why I think so many of the survey responses. And I think it's partially a testament to. I mean, not only the work my audience has done in working with the IC and putting their delineations, their self delineations together, but also what you've been doing on the podcast in terms of also showing this more nuanced method of delineating it and delineating the houses. And I think, yeah, the examples just really speak to the whole breadth of human experience while also displaying the method and the technique just so starkly and so beautifully. Yeah, I'm really happy to have had the opportunity to do that survey.
- [162:48]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, this has been amazing. This is amazing. And I'll be looking forward to your lecture at the United Astrology Conference next year on this. So that'll be great. A great topic. All right, do we have any more?
- [162:59]
Pallas K. Augustine
One last example. Yeah. So this is a Taurus example, and it's another fifth house, and this one is one that really blends things, but I think speaks and sums up really nicely what we've been talking about in terms of negation and experiences of that and departure from things that we've inherited as well.
- [163:22]
Chris Brennan
So which one is this?
- [163:23]
Pallas K. Augustine
This is Miri. Sorry. Yeah, okay.
- [163:25]
Chris Brennan
Okay, got it. Caprizing and Taurus. Icy.
- [163:28]
Pallas K. Augustine
Got it. Yeah, that's perfect. Okay, so Miri shares. I'm just gonna read Miri's. Cause it's very well written. My IC is in the fifth house of Taurus, ruled by exalted Venus and Pisces in the third. Firstly, I come from a lineage of artists and musicians. My family members are college artists, painters, watercolorists, and sculptors, many of whom also sing and play the guitar, lute, bass, bass, piano, drums, and so on. Our ancestors used to work in the Royal London Orchestra. I spent my whole childhood painting and drawing or helping my mother teaching her art classes. Secondly, many of them earn their money by working with children as art teachers. Thirdly, our family home is filled with artworks and located in the beautiful English Countryside next to a nature reserve. My family carry out their own preservation of local animal and plants, plant species on our land, which includes gardens, meadows filled with all kinds of wildflowers, fruit trees, bushes and vegetable patches. You will find all kinds of endangered birds taking sanctuary there. So the house is surrounded by birdsong. You'll also see deer, pheasants, bees and foxes. A lot of my family's artwork is inspired by the surrounding nature and animals.
- [164:40]
Chris Brennan
Beautiful.
- [164:41]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. So that. That Taurus IC ruled by that exalted Venus in the third with the sun and Saturn.
- [164:53]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. And Venus is like closely sextiling the ic.
- [164:58]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, yeah. And then with this moon and cap in the first feels relevant too. I really do look at the domicile ruler and the exaltation ruler of the icy whenever I look at a chart. And then you can look at all kinds of rulers of the ic, of course. But there really is. When there's sort of sympathy in between them, they speak to different flavors of the experience of the IC in different ways. So she shares. The ruler of my IC is placed in the third. All my immediate family are all art teachers involved in education. They spend a lot of time talking about the neighbors in the the village. I think gossip is an underrated third house signification, even though it's also 11th. But you know, when it's local, it's so third house. Furthermore, I lived with a lot of extended family and numerous siblings in the same house, growing up with my grandparents, uncles and brother on my mom's side and with my stepmother, stepsisters and half sisters on my dad's side. And then we also have languages in terms of an older third cousin also lived with them who could speak fluent Chinese after marrying someone. And this was so inspiring to Miri as a child that she did a school trip to China and then ended up studying Chinese at Yi University and moving to China.
- [166:25]
Chris Brennan
Wow, that's brilliant.
- [166:27]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. And then this is when it comes to. And so we have that third house emphasis of the education, literally art teachers. Right. Fifth house, the art. And then the third house we're in the teachers. And then we also, of course, opposite that is the Virgo, which is the ninth, which is what we might associate with teaching more generally. And then that having a connection with Mercury, Mars in the second in Aquarius, that Mars in a tight square to the midheaven ic, which is part of what we talked about before. And then the south node on the IC as well. And so in the final part, she mentions my experience of the IC was not so great. And this is despite it being seemingly idyllic. Right. Presence with the south node in opposition with Pluto and then the square to Mars, I think is also very prominent. The ruler of the IC is co present with Saturn in a night chart. So there was a lot of struggles feeling very isolated in the rural home I grew up in, away from society. And there was a dark and dirty side to the countryside life. Many of my extended relatives were abusive, causing significant trauma to me, and there was never escape from such a large family. These conditions are what partially pushed me to abandon the pursuit of art myself and move across to the other side of the world as an adult.
- [167:50]
Chris Brennan
Okay. Yeah, Right. Because I was wondering what the other side of the third house was, because even though it's the fifth in the Isis ruled by this exalted Venus in a night chart, which is the best planet in the chart, the third house also has Saturn in a night chart, which is the most challenging planet in the chart, just based on sect. And I thought there might have been a bit of that with the implication of the gossiping component, but that's where that comes out more.
- [168:18]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, it's really spot on. To be able to have that, you know, what seems idyllic. Right. What seems like kind of a perfect, pristine childhood. And, you know, an exalted ruler of your IC is definitely going to offer some of that, but then to have it be a lot of like other people's experience. Right. And to have it not be like so much of your own experience too. And I think that there's the south node with the IC and this Mars square and, you know, literally leaving that place and going and making her own way literally halfway across the world feels so. With Mercury, who rules that ninth house. Right. Just feels very, very potent.
- [169:05]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. Well, it's a comment I get constantly on YouTube, which is just like, well, what happens if the most positive planet based on sect and the most challenging planet based on sect are in the same house? And the answer is you get both. You get extremes of some of the best stuff and then extremes of some of the most challenging stuff in the same area or the same sector of the life.
- [169:28]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Always.
- [169:31]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, always. Yeah, yeah. That's brilliant though. That's such a vivid example. Yeah, that's a great one.
- [169:41]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. I feel like it really sums up kind of a lot of what we're talking about here in terms of being able to see the differentiations between the houses and where the IC lands versus the houses where it's associated with.
- [170:00]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, yeah. Definitely. Is that our last? We're gonna end on a high note with any final ones?
- [170:08]
Pallas K. Augustine
Well, I mean, there is one that I pulled out that.
- [170:12]
Chris Brennan
I mean, I'm fine. I wasn't saying we have to. I know, but I was gonna leave it on. Leave it up to you.
- [170:18]
Pallas K. Augustine
Well, I feel like someone finding their way toward astrology and making meaning of such an experience feels pretty potent. There is one other one that I was thinking of sharing, and when I was going through the signs, when I was going through the submissions, I was really looking for chart rulers. Not that we were going to include chart rulers in every one of the houses, but I like that as a sort of sample spread. And I had a hell of a time finding IC ruler in the fourth whole sign house for this. So I did find one, but as I mentioned before, it's someone who doesn't necessarily, like, appreciate kind of what we're doing. So I wonder if we want to look at it, because I feel like it kind of opens up. It kind of, like, opens up what we're talking about in terms of negation. So this is lj. So it's another Taurus example, but it is the last one that I pulled out because I thought it would be an interesting way to end.
- [171:23]
Chris Brennan
Okay, so this is Capricorn Rising with the IC in Taurus in the fifth whole sign house.
- [171:28]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. So she doesn't give us very much. So we don't have a lot to work with, but I think we can maybe pull apart a bit around why it doesn't track, you know, and maybe point to. So if some other people, even after all this, are like, I still don't get it, we might be able to point to some little pieces to pull out what might make it click. So LJ shares. Okay, so LJ's IC's in Taurus in the fifth house, the same as this last one we looked at. And their icy ruler is Venus in Aries in the fourth house. So this is a fourth house icy ruler. And so LJ shares. I find it a bit confusing because when it comes to home, I don't have children, so I don't have those familial stories in my life. As much as I once wanted children, that ship has now sailed. I feel like, how protective I am over my home and my roots. Roots feels more Aries than Taurus. I also didn't have a particularly supportive family when it came to my art practice, and pleasure certainly isn't something that figures into my family life. So I suppose I don't see how the IC relates to me. Venus would rule my fifth house, but she's in my fourth house in Aries. Though I'm incredibly lost as to how that's related. Like I said above, I feel like my IC would make more sense in the fourth. And having it in the fifth, fifth just makes me wonder what the IC is even for.
- [172:57]
Chris Brennan
Okay.
- [172:58]
Pallas K. Augustine
Which is like, okay, so what we did get from this is that LJ does have an art practice that her family was not supportive of. So that's kind of the main thing that feels connective to me. So we do have this fourth house experience of immediate family, right? Those kind of origin stories that are present potentially a father. The Mars is down there with Venus, right? But then we have this fifth house ic. And then one thing that I do like doing is when we're thinking about an ic, if it does have an exaltation ruler, if the domicile ruler is in a situation like this, this where Venus is in aversion to the ic, right? And also in a tricky position, despite being, you know, powerful in a night chart, we can sometimes, if it does look to the exaltation ruler, right? And so she does have this very waning Pisces moon in third with Mercury. And so my question to LJ would be, if we do, if the fourth house stuff is too hot and too spiky and not supportive to fifth house icy topics, right? It's like, what about the third house? What does it offer it? Right? And what does thinking about the Taurusness of it, right? Like thinking with the zodiacal sign and the ecology and the mythology and everything we know about the signs, it's like, how does that contribute? Because protective of home is. There is definitely a Marsy Aries way to go about doing that, but there is also a Tauren way, I think, and I'm curious if, like, allowing what would arise by taking seriously Taurus as your ic, right? And allowing that to be separate from these harmful familial involvements. Even though, of course, we see that with the IC ruler being in the fourth, there seems to me to be a conversation that can happen there that isn't necessarily about those experiences, although it obviously has been formed by them. And I feel like that's part of what I see in this chart. In terms of what she shared.
- [175:41]
Chris Brennan
Okay. In the document, I think I'm missing one of the paragraphs. I don't know if it accidentally got deleted. Is it just this paragraph? Are we missing one.
- [175:54]
Pallas K. Augustine
There?
- [175:54]
Chris Brennan
There it is.
- [175:54]
Pallas K. Augustine
I don't know what happened? Yeah, so no children, so expanding this fifth house piece of it.
- [176:03]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. I mean, the thing for me is I just think it's more of a classic instance of the negation because it just has to do with. I don't use exaltation rulers, so I can't speak to that. But I do think that that Saturn placement in a night chart, which is the more challenging planet in the chart as a result of it being a night chart, is opposing the IC and opposing the fifth house. And so what we're getting is Saturn negating some of those fifth house and IC topics. And that's why there may be less of an ability to relate to some of that stuff. For example, with the topic of children.
- [176:40]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. And being the Ascendant ruler.
- [176:42]
Chris Brennan
Right, yeah, exactly.
- [176:43]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. And that being so much more present in her experience.
- [176:49]
Chris Brennan
Right. And then when it's the Ascendant ruler, sometimes it's like that stuff is arising as a result of choice and personal volition. So it's like, like potentially a choice not to have children on some level, or that arising as a result of in some instances, certain choices that the person makes.
- [177:09]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. Or having wanted to and then the life just like not making space for it.
- [177:16]
Chris Brennan
Right, right, exactly. Right. Okay. Cause she says that that was something that she did want at one point in time, but that ship is. Has sailed. So I don't know if that's hard to infer things. I don't know if that's implying some wistfulness over that or what necessarily.
- [177:32]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, I mean that Mars is so powerful too. Right. And this is another thing is that when we're thinking about this kind of lively planets as people, you know, kind of, and like seeing how they actually show up in our day to day life and in, in our worlds. And it's like sometimes the planets are just like much, much louder than other planets. Right. And so the Venus of that experience and the Venus in Aries of that experience, even though she's separating from Mars at the same time, the presence of that Mars in the fourth house would probably drown out whatever Venus is trying to sing.
- [178:18]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. And this really is just going back to what we were talking about earlier. This would have been good to pull out at that point because of the negation idea of that. Sometimes astrologers run into an issue of not understanding a placement when it's like not being able to relate to a placement, but it's arising out of the negation. So it's like the two things we know about this person is that the Placement topic of children was negated for some reason with Saturn opposing the fifth and that the parents were not supportive of the creative pursuits with Saturn opposing the IC and the 5th. So the reason the native doesn't resonate with is because they're expecting an affirmation of those things. But the chart aspects, at least the only aspects to that I see of major aspects were not ones that were lending as much support as they potentially could have. Okay, interesting.
- [179:20]
Pallas K. Augustine
I think that tracks. I hope that's clarifying for lj.
- [179:24]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. Because the other part of it is it's not just setting up because Rhetorius talks about this in the second house of when a planet is aspecting through especially an opposition. And that one of the paradigms in Hellenistic astrology is that planets can aspect empty houses. You don't have to have a planet in a house in order for a planet to aspect that house partially because even if a house is empty like it kind of is in this instance, at least in terms of planets with Taurus in the fifth whole sign house with the ic, we do know that at different points in the life, planets will transit through Taurus. But then it's like what is the experience once planets say, especially slow moving ones or retrogrades move into Taurus, part of their experience is that they immediately activate that opposition with Saturn in Scorpio in a night chart. So for example, the Saturn opposition as a teenager would have been experienced as Saturn going through the fifth house and activating that, that natal Saturn placement. And it probably at that point as a teenager was experienced as the parents not being supportive of the natives creative aspirations or pursuits.
- [180:45]
Pallas K. Augustine
Mm, yeah, that totally makes sense. Yeah, yeah, those oppositions are definitely real. And of course like the midheaven is treated as powerful for many good reasons. Right. This is a huge part of why the IC is also hard to talk about. Especially when we have planets with the midheaven, whether they're an angle ruler or not, they tend to be a lot like they pull focus away from the ic. And so this is a function of that negation. But then when you're in a consultation with someone and they want to relate with their ic, right? And they want to make sense of it in a kind of more life giving way. Even when it's in a hard situation like this, this it often takes giving those planets with the midheaven space and being able to be like, okay, here you are, this is what you're saying, we hear you. How about you? How about we make some space in order to Tend to these roots, even if they're hard, even if it feels sort of impossible because of other things that are going on in the chart. And I think it is possible, but the midheaven is impossible. Incredible as a point in the chart and as a point in people's lives. And I really feel that mycelial understanding of the IC as part of what nourishes our midheaven and nourishes those expressions. And you do see that when there's planets with the midheaven and the IC is in an otherwise empty house.
- [182:23]
Chris Brennan
For sure, absolutely. Yeah. The final thing here is just. Is the implication that the native, they said the parents did not support my art practice. Is the implication then that the native still became an artist or did continue their art practice despite their family's opposition to it?
- [182:45]
Pallas K. Augustine
So they don't say here, but I would kind of think so just looking at the chart. But. But it doesn't say. And so that would be one of my follow up questions with this chart for sure. Because especially with that third house emphasis too. I mean there's writerliness, you know what I mean? So I think that it would be very interesting to know if this person did continue to have an art practice in their own way, despite that parent's negation of it. For sure.
- [183:24]
Chris Brennan
Right? For sure. Yeah. And then that's really what it would become. And then ruler of the fifth, Venus in the fourth, also ruling the tenth. And yeah, just the potential that they did. Although Venus is also opposing Pluto. So there you get some of the tensions with the family potentially not supporting the art practice, but the natives still gravitating towards artistic progress pursuits. So you end up with a very complex delineation there then that provides a nice counterpoint to some of our other delineations where the parents were supportive of the native's creative pursuits. Of just asking a person, how would you describe a chart where a person didn't receive support from their family for their creative pursuits, but nonetheless continue to pursue that anyways, let's say.
- [184:10]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's spot on. I guess that's also not a high note, but the IC kind of isn't like that often.
- [184:18]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, well, it's good. It does help to fill out the picture for us so that we've seen a full spectrum of lots of different experiences of the entire spectrum. And that's really what's important for us as astrologers. And it's what I like when that's one of the reasons I do these long episodes with lots of chart examples. Because I want to not just show one or two or three chart examples and go really deep into those and then call it a day. I want people to see the full spectrum. And I think this was really brilliant research. And I'm really glad that we did this. And I'm glad you put together that survey and then helped and went through all of these to pick out some of the best ones. Because, yeah, I think we got a really good picture here, even though it's not complete. So obviously there's more that could be said. But. But this is amazing. And I really appreciate especially everyone that sent in their examples and wrote out and shared these life stories in their charts. So thank you to everybody who sent this in, as well as to you for doing this research and everything. This is really, really good.
- [185:23]
Pallas K. Augustine
The IC in the third and the fifth has been a bit of a pet. I made sure when we did the IC book and the case stories there, that there was at least a few ICs in the third as well as ICs in the fifth whole sign house. Although it is majority, I see in the fourth whole sign house. And especially with the people who tend to be in my clients, I see a lot of people who do practice magic. They're spiritually inclined. And there's so much third house stuff that goes into that. And then of course, being part of the queer community and the fifth house being such an important place in terms of those lineage ancestors that are outside of the bio family. And I just. There's stories that need to be told. Right. And so I just. I really appreciate your willingness to collab on the survey with me and of course, everyone who wrote in. Cause they're just such beautiful stories.
- [186:24]
Chris Brennan
Yeah. Thank you. I'm so excited to have done this finally. Cause it's something I've meant to do for years, but I didn't feel like it was time and I was finally ready. And then I was actually thinking about reaching out to you for like several days. And then you emailed me at the same time after I was on the verge of emailing you. So the synchronicity was perfect. And yeah, people should check out your book because you have a big thick book on the IC and the meaning of the ic. And it's a really brilliant book. There it is.
- [186:54]
Pallas K. Augustine
I was using it as my mousepad.
- [186:57]
Chris Brennan
Okay, nice. Yeah. But people can learn more about this topic and go deeper if they want to with your book on the subject.
- [187:06]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. It is a labor of love. I really think of the book as a community project being backed on Kickstarter and before that it was supported through my Patreon. And, you know, we were. I started writing the book in 2018, so it's been a long time coming and so many people were involved and I'm just. Yeah. Grateful it's out there and grateful it exists as a resource for people for this very important but often underattended to point point. So grateful to you for tending to it.
- [187:39]
Chris Brennan
Yeah, yeah. I'm so glad we got to do this and got to fill out this missing technical piece that's always been so important to me in chart readings and that I developed and have followed over the past 20 years and have expressed the concept that I've always told people when I lecture on whole sign houses, even in a basic Talk that the IC imports 4th House significations into whatever whole sign house it falls. And I hope now it's clear what that means tangibly and why it is that I say that 100%.
- [188:09]
Pallas K. Augustine
No, I think this will be a very, very excited for this. Yeah. Because we first talked about this a year ago, but then the book was sold out, we couldn't do it and now it's available. But even I was going through my own grief processes for the last few months, which are IC related in part. And so I had to wait in order to even like follow back up with you about doing it. And so I love that the timing was full of synchronicity because it is definitely a spirit guided endeavor and this just proves it yet again.
- [188:39]
Chris Brennan
Absolutely, absolutely brilliant. All right, so you do consultations related to the IC and related to this material and you have the book which is available through your website and you also have those lectures coming up, right?
- [188:54]
Pallas K. Augustine
Mm. Yeah. I'm speaking at NORWAC and UAC this year, which will be. Both of them will be so lovely. UAC will be. We first met at UAC 2018. I don't know if you remember that. It was just in passing I was thanking. You were with Leisa. And I was thanking Leisa because my first astrology conference I ever went to was NorWAC in 2016 and it was through an AFAN scholarship. And so I was thanking Leisa for her work with AFAN and yeah, UAC 2026 in Chicago. I'm giving a talk on the. Oh, it's the ICN relationship 1:1. And I'm actually doing some consultations opening this month, which is November for anyone watching later that are related to that topic. And so if anyone's super Interested in that aspect, they can get in on those. And then at Norwac I'm giving two lectures. So one called the Mage and the Sage on Jupiter Mercury and taking kind of an experiential storytelling approach to how those planets relate in a chart. So we'll be looking at them using techniques and then kind of expanding it into what kind of stories they tell us. And then one on the ic which will be more of a beginner, intermediate kind of cozy introduction to it, which will also be. It'll be really sweet. Yeah. Less technical than we did today, the one at Norwac, but it'll be a really lovely time. And of course that's virtual as well, is in Seattle as well.
- [190:33]
Chris Brennan
Nice, I love that. What's the URL again for both of your websites?
- [190:37]
Pallas K. Augustine
So my work consultations you can find@9ofwands.com all spelled out. And that's also my Patreon gets early access. So if you're on my Patreon you will get the heads up in my mailing list as well, which you can find on my website. And then the book is in the shop shop@Idolastelerum.com.
- [190:59]
Chris Brennan
Okay. And you don't have the book on Amazon currently. People need to get it from your website.
- [191:04]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah, yeah, they order it directly from us, both print and ebook.
- [191:08]
Chris Brennan
Good. Okay, good. Just wanted to make sure that's clear. And the Last thing is 2018 keeps coming up and I know, I keep thinking every time you mention 2018 how Uranus first went into Taurus at that time. And in the forecast I just talked about how Uranus is returning back to Taurus us for the final time for one last, final lesson or to bring full circle all of the lessons that first started back in 2018. So I think it's brilliant that one, you started working on the IC work in 2018 and two that we met in 2018 and now things are full circle and we're doing a podcast on the IC at the end of that transit. I know we're not going into your chart, but I don't know if there's any way that that relates. But I'm very curious how that that might relate to your chart or your journey in general.
- [191:57]
Pallas K. Augustine
Well, the lead up to me writing the book was actually Chiron of all things in Venus retrograde. I had a 5 pass Chiron transit to my IC which resulted in a quite long period of homelessness and transience that both contributed to the writing of the IC and also interrupted it from time to time. And so the move into Aries coincided with Uranus's move into Taurus. And so there was, like, Uranus moving out of my fifth was also Chiron moving into my fifth. And so there's a piece there, but the IC, my ICs in Pisces, and the Kickstarter was funded with the IC conjunction. It was Venus and Jupiter in Pisces in that chart. And then the IC was finally released publicly when Jupiter was in Gemini. So it was a full my IC ruler moving from going around.
- [193:15]
Chris Brennan
Okay. And then, of course, that was all activated last month if your IC's in Pisces. There was the Pisces eclipse that just happened in September, and Saturn just returned back to Pisces for its final thing. And it's gonna station there this month because we're also getting the last final full circle of the past three years, since March 2023, that Saturn's been going through Pisces. So that's also really beautiful.
- [193:41]
Pallas K. Augustine
Yeah. And my IC's third deck in Pisces. So it is with Saturn. Yeah, it's passed officially, but it's definitely still co present in this last pass of it.
- [193:53]
Chris Brennan
Nice. Cool. All right, well, thanks for doing this. Congratulations on the book. Everybody should get the book and check out your websites. And yeah, thanks very much for collaborating with me on this today.
- [194:03]
Pallas K. Augustine
Oh, it was great. It was good to work with you. It was fun. Yeah, thanks.
- [194:07]
Chris Brennan
Cool. All right, well, thanks everyone, for watching or listening to this episode of the Astrology Podcast, and we'll see you again next time. If you're a fan of the podcast and you'd like to find a way to help support my research, then consider becoming a patron through my page on patreon.com in exchange, you'll get access to subscriber benefits, such as early access to new episodes, the ability to attend live recordings, the monthly electional Astrology Podcast, an exclusive podcast series called the Secret Astrology Podcast that's only available to patrons, or you can even get your name listed in the credits. For more information, go to patreon.com astrologypodcast Special thanks to patrons on my producers tier, including patrons Kristi Moe, Ariana Amour, Mandi Rae, Angelic Nambo, Issa Sabah, Jeannie Marie Kaplan, Melissa Delano, Sunny Bazbaz, Kwatsi Alibarahu, Annie Newman, Ginger Sadlier, Berlin west, and Nikki Crawford. People often ask me if I'm available for consultations, but unfortunately, I'm not right now because the podcast takes up so much of my time. However, I did create a consultations page on the Astrology Podcast website that has a list of astrologers that I recommend for astrological consultations. You can find that@theastrologypodcast.com consulting consultations. The astrology software we use here on the podcast is called Solar Fire for Windows, which is astrology software. For the PC. You can get a 15% discount by using the promo code AP15 at the website alabe.com For Mac users, I recommend the software Astro Gold for Mac OS, which is astrology software for the Mac computer made by the creators of of Solar fire. For the PC you can get a 15% discount with the promo code AstroPodcast15 through their website at AstroGold IO. If you're really looking to deepen your studies of astrology, then I would recommend signing up for my Hellenistic Astrology course, which is an online course in ancient astrology where I take people from basic concepts up through intermediate and advanced techniques for reading birth charts charts. There's over 100 hours of video lectures plus monthly webinars and Q and A sessions, and then at the end of the course you get a certificate of completion saying that you studied with me. If you pass the final written test. Find out more information@theastrologyschool.com finally, shout out to our sponsor for this episode, which is the United Astrology Conference, which is happening September 3rd through the 9th, 2026 in Chicago. Find out more information@uacastrology.com.