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- [00:00]
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- [01:48]
Ayo Akimolere
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. Excitement is building for the start of Africa cup of nations this weekend. So will hosts and favorites Morocco deliver? Can reigning champions Ivory coast defend their crown and who are the key players to keep an eye on? Well, we're going to tell you everything you need to know ahead of AFCON 2025. All right, in with us today we've got Jay Harris. We've also got Si Hughes as well. And both of you are heading out to Afcon. It's going to be super, super interesting, Jay. For the people listening, just break it down very quickly. When does it start and what the tournament entails?
- [02:33]
Jay Harris
It's the 35th edition of AFCON. It's being held in Morocco, as you mentioned, nine stadiums across six different cities. It starts on Sunday with Morocco against Comoros at the. I think it's the S. Might know this, the Prince Malay Abdela Stadium in Rabat, which I think is 68,000 seater. And one tiny bit of information which I think is important for listeners is that it should have been held in the summer. Morocco wanted to host it in the summer, but there was this little tournament called the Club World cup, which got in the way. And that's a. That's a conversation for another day, but there you go.
- [03:09]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, definitely a conversation for another day. And I want to talk more about that in terms of AFCON trying to battle with European supremacy in many respects. Si. Well, you're taking a very interesting route coming into this. And you're not actually getting on the plane like most of the people, are you?
- [03:22]
Si Hughes
Well, I am getting on a plane, but I'm not flying to Morocco. So it was my idea instead to fly to Gibraltar and then get the ferry from Tarifa to Tangier, because it is, you know, it's the closest AFCON we've had to Europe. And I thought that that might be a nice entry point. So I'm just hoping that no other journalist steals my idea.
- [03:43]
Ayo Akimolere
You've said it now, man.
- [03:44]
Si Hughes
You just have to rearrange the plans pretty quickly.
- [03:46]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, let's sort of get our understanding on a personal note from the both of you, of what. What sort of covering AFCON means to you. I mean, just, you're taking some treacherous route there, Si. But for you, I know it's not your first rodeo on this one. What. What makes AFCON so special?
- [03:59]
Si Hughes
Well, I covered the last one in Cote d', Ivoire, and, you know, I'm a bit cynical about international tournaments now, whether it's the World cup or the European Championships. AFCON is just a bit different. You know, what I really like about it is that first, on a sporting level, you know, every single nation goes into this tournament, whether they do have a realistic chance of winning or not believing a little bit that they might win. And given, you know, no African nation has won a World cup yet, so that places such importance on afcon. People are desperate to win this because they think that they might, you know, it's. It's a real chance. So there's that. And it just moves at a different rhythm and pace to other international tournaments, I think. And above everything, from a professional point of view, I just think there's always news stories around it and interesting subjects to write. About. So it's got everything for me. We want African football and the tournament itself to become more popular, and it is, but it's on a nice sweet spot at the moment where it's still accessible. You know, there's lots of interesting things going on. There's not layers and layers of management to get through to get to the truth of a story. So, yeah, I can't wait. I'm really excited.
- [05:07]
Jay Harris
Yeah.
- [05:07]
Ayo Akimolere
From a Nigerian standpoint, AFCON is the one, you know, next to the World Cup. AFCON is a wonderful moment for the Super Eagles to. To try and shine. Anyway, Jay, what about you? I know you were at Cote d' Ivoire last year. We were talking to you from Cote d' Ivo last year. How are you feeling about this year's tournament? What makes it so special?
- [05:24]
Jay Harris
Really excited about this year's tournament. I was in Morocco last month, two or three weeks ago for the World cup players, where your Nigerian boys let you. Let you down. I think size touched upon some of the beauty of AFCON there. But one thing which really stands out for me is how incredible the people are, and that's across the players I've interacted with, the fans I've interacted with, the journalists I've interacted with. There's a real wholesome community when it comes to afcon, and that just means it's so enjoyable. There are some negative stories that we have to cover at afcon, but there are also lots of positive stories. And I think covering AFCON from Ivory Coast a couple of years ago just gave me a much better window into what African football is like. The beauty of it. I'll never forget our good friend Sol Bamba, who's sadly no longer with us, summed it up very perfectly when we did this preview podcast a couple of years ago. He said that when he was growing up, hardly any African teams went to the World Cup. It was three or four. So why would they care that much about the World Cup? They'd care about AFCON when every country got its chance to shine. You can have Zambia upset ivory coast in 2012, an Ivory coast team that had Yaya Toure, Didier Drogba, Solomon Kalu. Anything can happen. At the last tournament, Emiliano Ensue was the top goal scorer. Three months after the tournament, FIFA said he should never have been playing for Equatorial Guinea. Then a year later, they say, no, it's fine. There's just always some manner of madness, good and bad, which I just think means it's. It's unmissable.
- [06:55]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. And for me, from an African perspective, it's always about having more eyes on the, on the product. And Channel 4 are going to be broadcasting. Channel 4 and E4, I should say, are going to be broadcasting a lot of the games. I think there's eight games altogether that are going to be sort of live studio and sort of orchestrated that way. But also all the games are going to be streamed across Channel 4 platforms, which I think is so, so important to have more eyes on the price. Simon and that's the thing about Afcon really, is that we talk about these stories, but sometimes you have to go left, right here and center to try and see whether you can catch the games. Finally, especially in the uk, at least you can watch the games.
- [07:30]
Si Hughes
Well, visibility is important, isn't it? You know, it's really good to see a huge broadcaster take on the whole. The tournament. People are going to know exactly where it is all the time. They don't have to go digging around for it. They're treating it with the importance that it deserves. And, you know, obviously I won't be really watching much of it to the Channel 4, but, you know, I know a lot of my friends who, who sort of their interest in Afcon has grown for all sorts of different reasons. Some of the reasons that we just, just mentioned, but also because, you know, there's so many Premier League players involved now. So, you know, fans of all these clubs want to know what their player is doing during this tournament. What I quite like about it as well, it's a bit of a disruptor, isn't it? You know, Afcon and it's some. It sometimes annoys people. I think that it gets, well, certainly annoys some of the Premier League, you know, clubs that it gets in the way with the schedule. Well, that's good. You can't just have it your own way all the time. I think this time, you know, even approaching the tournament, there's, there's so much going on around it. Obviously we'll probably get to it in a bit, but obviously Mohamed Salah's current position at Liverpool is going to drive a lot of interest. I know Channel 4 have selected some of the Egypt games and given them prominence as well. So I think engagement is going to be much higher. You know, that they wouldn't have taken on that contract if they didn't think people were going to watch it.
- [08:48]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. Especially on Boxing Day, Egypt versus South Africa. All eyes will be watching that one live on air on Channel 4, so make sure you tune in for that as well. Right, Jay, let's get into some of the politics. We always talk about it, especially around Afcon. And I think this tension between Europe versus Africa when it comes to Afcon is always really interesting. You know, it hasn't been the smoothest start. FIFA announced that the mandatory release date for players from their clubs would be Monday 15th December, which is seven days later than the usual timings before major tournaments. Now, the Mali coach said the ruling is catastrophic for preparations. Do you agree, Jay?
- [09:26]
Jay Harris
Of course it is, because there is no time for preparations. By the time they've flown out there, they've got to the hotel, they got to the team camp, etc. That had barely a few days to work with teammates, head coaches, etc, on what exactly they're going to do for this tournament. And S mentioned it a minute ago about this tournament being the disruptor and it annoys people in the Premier League. And. And I think what some people don't appreciate is that, or maybe they're ignorant of, like I said, this is the 35th edition of AFCON. AFCON has always traditionally been held at this time of the year in the January window. So that's a historical traditional thing they've been doing for a long, long time. The Premier League, that's however many years old. And European leagues shouldn't say, actually, now you've got to conform to us and the way we do things. I think the first Safcom was hosted, I think, in the late 1950s, if not the early 1960s. That's something we should always be conscious of. And then, as I mentioned earlier, Morocco tried to host this tournament in the summer. CAF made the ruling a few years ago about switching to a summer tournament. But then there's weather factors. Ivory coast couldn't host it in the summer because of the tropical rainstorm season. It was the same with Cameroon. So actually, if anything, the African continent sort of bent over backwards to try and accommodate what Premier League and European leagues want, and it never actually works. So I think this is a tradition for them. It should be held at this time. And then going back to the preparations and stuff, there'd be absolute uproar if it was the other way around. And European players ahead of the Euros only got their players five or six days before the tournament. It's extremely unfair and I think that's something that needs to be looked at in the future. But I sometimes feel like CAF and. And I know SI will will have an opinion on this. I think sometimes caf bend to FIFA a little bit and they're happy to sort of keep the status quo. So. Okay, sure thing. We'll push the date back by a week because they don't want to upset people.
- [11:20]
Si Hughes
I think the worst part of it is the timing of it in terms of they weren't given much prior notice to change their plans. So I've been writing a piece this week which is loosely themed around Comoros, who are obviously playing the first game. And their coaches said if we'd have known about this months in advance, we could have maybe planned more. But now we've had to disrupt all our plans. We've had to tear up an idea to go to Tunisia for a camp with it. And I've, you know, several training sessions there before they played to friendly against Botswana and now just have to condense our preparations into five training sessions ahead of the opening game. So, you know, the teams that are playing the opening games, Morocco includes is of course, are going to be affected by this. And I just think, you know, it's, it's, it's a cowardly decision by, by FIFA. If you're going to make it, at least do it with enough notice so that nations can make good decisions, which obviously affects finance as well and all these things. But it just feels like at the last minute they've decided to bend for the whims of certainly the European clubs. And, you know, Infanty, I mean, Jay mentioned there about calf and the relationship with FIFA. I mean, there's a bigger debate around there between Infantino and Patrice Matcepe, the president of caf and that the source of the relationship between the two, I mean, maybe we could get to that later on in the tournaments, but I just think, you know, that element of it, I just think stinks. To be honest. There's no other way of saying it. It stinks.
- [12:49]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. I mean, there's another conversation here and I'm sure we'll talk about it later on down the line in terms of a post colonial ideology from African countries versus the European bodies and who's bending over backwards for who and who. Whether or not European entities would bend over backwards for African federations, in fact. But that is another one. Let's keep our powder dry, gents, for later on in the tournament. Well, let's move on to, to the tournament favorites potentially. And hosts Morocco. Decent team, Hakimi. We look at Diaz as well from Real Madrid, Brahim Diaz. You know, they open the tournament against Comoros on Sunday for Channel 4 again, actually, they're aiming for their first AFCON title since 1976. Jay how much pressure is it on these boys?
- [13:28]
Jay Harris
There's a huge amount of pressure on Morocco. I remember going into the last Africa cup of nations because of what Morocco had done at the World cup in Qatar. They'd become the first African side in the tournament's history to reach the semi finals. There was this assumption from a lot of people that are they're going to absolutely walk this tournament. And they were unbeaten in the group stage. I think they won two games and drew one, only conceded one goal and then they got knocked out on penalties by I think it was South Africa in the round of 16 and it was like, well, for the last couple of years we've been building Morocco up as this squad that had the perfect blend of youth and experience who had invested a lot in the last decade and bringing through younger players. I think Morocco have got a really good record in the UN youth team age tournaments at this point in time. They had a head coach who was local because that's been an issue with African countries in the past where they're often hiring white European managers. But they had Walid Reg wi and they just didn't turn up, basically. So the fact that they're hosting this tournament, of course there's going to be huge pressure on them to win it. I remember their fans at the World cup in Qatar. They were absolutely phenomenal. So this is going to be a righteous party like atmosphere at every game I'm expecting anyways. And they've also got some of the best players in the tournament. They've got Brian Diaz from Real Madrid, they've got Hakimi. Hakimi is obviously coming back from an ankle injury, so we don't know how much he's going to be able to play in the beginning of the tournament.
- [14:51]
Ayo Akimolere
But current African Player of the Year as well, which is incredible. Right?
- [14:54]
Jay Harris
The African Player of the year who picked up the ward while he was on a mobility scooter three weeks ago. So there's a huge amount of pressure on them. But I do also think that they're well coached, good team. They got knocked out of the last tournament on penalties that can happen and I think if they win that opening game and that just sort of sets the tone for the rest of the competition.
- [15:12]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, I'm going to let you wear two hats here s Liverpool and Mo Salah. Let's talk about Egypt because look, I think you've mentioned it on the podcast. Egypt have never won AFCON with Mo Salah in the squad, which is massive. So we know what pressure that entails but also this is not the Mo Salah we're used to seeing. Usually this is the Mo Salah probably not firing that well in the Premier League. I mean, all eyes will be on Egypt, but most likely all eyes will be on Mo Salah as well.
- [15:40]
Si Hughes
Well, it's also a Muhammad Salah with a point to prove, which when he's in that sort of mood, it tends to fire him up. He's certainly going on into this tournament with more pressure around him because of what he's or the things that he said recently. Egypt, as you mentioned, IO that they won AFCON three times in a row between 2006, 2010. Muhammad Salah's career with the Egyptian national team sort of comes after that. He inherits a lot of the frustration that sort of comes with the lack of deliverance, whether it's failing to qualify for afcon, failing to qualify for the World Cup. But he has been paramount to the team's qualification for two World Cups in 2018 and the one next summer as well. But he is judged, whether he likes it or not, against his performance in afcon. Egypt have gone close before. Obviously they lost, lost the final to Senegal, but in the last one that they were poor, really. Egypt, they sort of stumbled through the groups. Didn't really look like a team that was capable of winning the competition. They're in a better place now. They've got a tough group, but I think if they get through the group and, you know, they sort of bounce into the knockout rounds, it's always the sort of country, Egypt, when, you know, if they get a bit of momentum into the competition and a bit of confidence and they feel that the country's backing them rather than sort of waiting for them to fail, if you like. The team hasn't really changed much the last last couple of years. It's largely the same team, one or two key absentees, but I think quite a lot of the. The key, you know, the big nations have got question marks around more of the established players. I do think this is going to be an AFCON generally where, you know, the sort of the status quo amongst the established players sort of coming towards an end, perhaps with Salah, Sadio, Mane, various players from other countries. There's a lot of promising young players who are coming up keen to prove themselves in this tournament to it, right at that sort of point in the careers where they're ready and they can deliver. So it's going to be really interesting to see how Egypt do, because I think they're in a tough group. You know, Zimbabwe is a relatively sort of, I don't say gentle, but a game that they should be winning opening game. But the key games, the South Africa game, the second game, where South Africa really should be one of the top four or five teams in the competition. So they certainly don't want to be coming, you know, out the side of those two first two games with maybe one point and having, you know, a lot of pressure going into the last group game.
- [18:03]
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- [19:18]
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- [20:19]
Ayo Akimolere
Let's go from North Africa to West Africa and let's talk about Nigeria. I reluctantly want to talk about Nigeria because obviously Nigeria have missed out on their second consecutive World Cup J Player boycotts three managers in the past 18 months. It's never been a smooth ride for the Super Eagles. Never is really. Is this an opportunity to restore some sort of pride for the Super Eagles?
- [20:43]
Jay Harris
They're in a really difficult situation because it was only a couple of weeks ago they lost that World cup player final to Dr. Congo and lost in quite silly circumstances. Silly is the word I'm going to use because they lose on penalties and head coach Eric scheller accuses the Dr. Congo players of practicing voodoo in the penalty shootout.
- [21:05]
Ayo Akimolere
Remember that?
- [21:06]
Jay Harris
Yeah, and I was a little bit disappointed because I think Sheller made some bad decisions in the game and in the penalty shootout in particular. I remember he brought on Tolu Arakadari, the Wolverhampton Wanderer striker, and then took him off in extra time for a defender. And the other defender he had on the bench, William Truesta Kong, the best player at the last Afcon who scored I think three penalties at the last Afcon. So you bring a striker on, you take him off the penalties for a defender, but you don't bring on the defender that scores penalties. As you said, the players boycotted training ahead of those games. And I wrote a report on the Athletic that there's definitely a difficult relationship between the squad and the Nigeria Football Federation. From my conversations I've had with sources, the Nigerian players are well aware they are paid well. They don't play for Nigeria for money. They play because they want to represent their nation. Their issue is when the NFF and when the Nigerian government make promises and they praise these players and they say we're going to give you this support, we're going to give you this financial support, it doesn't happen. That's when they get frustrated because it also impacts the backroom members of staff. Now to get back to matters on the football pitch, Trong has retired and I interviewed him a couple of weeks ago for the Athletic and he, he is a really nice guy. He's very switched on and I think they'll miss what he does off the pitch. Sometimes we just perceive captains to be people who do the coin toss at the beginning of a game and do the post match interview. But from my Conversation with him, some of the battles and the burden he's had on his shoulders over the years. Nigeria will miss someone who could deflect all of the outside noise and do it in a very sensible manner. Ola Aina was playing for Nottingham Forests, I think under 21s on the weekend, but he's not in the squad. He, you know, still recovering from hamstring injuries, not up to full fitness. Benjamin Frederick, who's been excellent this season, he's a Brentford player, but he's on loan in belgium. He's only 20 years old and he's been fantastic for Nigeria. He's out with a knee injury. So straight away you've got three of Nigeria's best defenders who are not at the tournament. They've called up five players for the first time and you're just thinking, can Shella sort of get everybody over the disappointment of missing out on the World cup, sort of overcome the loss of leadership of Trista, Kong and Aina, etc. And get them to perform at the tournament? And you won't want to hear this, but I think you probably know it deep down. I have a horrible feeling that's going to end in tears again. And you're. The fact you're nodding says it all. There's always, for me, the couple of years I spent following Nigeria always feels like there's some sort of chaos going on, that it just ends up becoming a massive destruction. And I think that's going to happen again.
- [23:45]
Ayo Akimolere
I think from my perspective, it's just shocking to look around and look at certain teams, much smaller teams, who seem to have got their act together, who are now in the World cup from the African continent and by the way, huge respect to them for doing that. But it always seems as if there's some drama hanging over Nigeria considering the likes of Osimhen Ademola, Lukman, Alex Iwobi. Big, big, playing for big, big clubs as well, with great experience. But let's swiftly move on, S, because I don't want to talk about Nigeria again. They're annoying me. What about the Ivory Coast? Let's talk about cote d'. Ivoire. 2023 winners beat Nigeria in the final. How are they shaping up? Just remind you that they actually sacked their manager halfway through the last AFCON tournament. I remember me and Jay were just going, what on earth is going on? And Seoul as well was going, what is going on? And they end up winning it. I mean, this is the beauty of afcon, surely.
- [24:33]
Jay Harris
Can I say one thing really quickly? Sorry to Intrude. Si. But the day I landed was the day Ivory coast lost their third group stage game. And the guy who drove me from the airport to my hotel was like, don't talk to me. I said, what? What's going on? And obviously their nickname is the Elephants. And he said something like, ah, the Elephants are done. Like, let's move on. And to win at the end of that tournament, it felt really, I felt quite privileged to see a country go from I'm not talking to you about our football to parties in the street.
- [25:01]
Ayo Akimolere
But welcome to Africa, my brother. I'm telling you, welcome.
- [25:04]
Si Hughes
I still can't believe that happens. So a little bit of context here. Jay came and replaced me for the last two weeks of the tournament. I did the first two weeks and Ivory coast lost 4 nil to Equatorial guinea in their last group game. So just so listeners remember exactly what happened, they were then waiting for other countries to basically get results in their favor, to get out the groups. In the meantime, they sat the coach, Jean Louis Gasse, the Frenchman, and replace them with Mas Phi, who was, it was a midfielder with reading maybe 10, 15 years ago. And everybody thought that they were out. I mean, I, I remember, I. On the day they lost Ecuadorial Guinea, I went to cover another game in another part of Abidjan. I think it was Egypt actually, because they needed to get a good result in the last game. And the mood amongst the Ivorians, honestly, I've never seen anything like it. It did feel like a, a national tragedy. They were embarrassed, you know, that it had come to this. So to see them then win the competition, it was just, it was ridiculous really. So no team since, since Egypt has won it back to back. They won it three times in a row before that. I think it was Cameroon won it Back to back 2000, 2002. So Ivory Coaster trying to do something that hasn't been done for quite a long time, really. A few surprise and selection choices in their squads because the squads has been relatively settled. But they, they've again got one of those teams with a few promising young players. There's Yandy Amanda who has been playing really well for RB Leipzig this, this season after moving from Spain last summer. There's a lot, a lot of hopes on him, but it's not a team that sort of relies on one player and I think that's a strength. You know that if you go through World cup qualifying, they qualified very easily. But the goals are layered right across the team. I think the top score maybe scored two or three. So they got real depth, but where some surprise and selection choices by five, which made me think, why has he done that? I couldn't quite understand it, but they should be there. They should be there at the quarterfinals at the very least. I think there are other countries that are ahead of them, Morocco being one, Senegal being another. You know, the. Dare I say I owe countries with much smaller populations in Nigeria.
- [27:19]
Ayo Akimolere
Leave me alone, man. Why are you coming for this?
- [27:21]
Si Hughes
I mean, I don't know. I don't know why people always like equates everything to population, but. But nevertheless, it is a point that probably needs to be reflected. But you know, Nigeria must look at Senegal particularly, you know, much, much, much smaller country which is just churning out really top, top players at the moment. They, they must be, look, surely they must be thinking, we've got to try and do what Senegal are doing because Nigeria, you know, I. Again, for listeners, like, maybe sometimes I don't think people realize just how, how big and important a country in hygiene is and how much potential is there. You know, it's got a bigger population than Brazil, Appetite for football crazy is enormous. So they should be in a better place. But football doesn't work like that. But I do think that they could learn a lot, certainly from Senegal and maybe even Ivory Coast. I mean, I don't think that. Sorry, I'm switching between Cotevoir and Ivory Coast. I keep doing this, but I think that the system at Senegal is the one at the moment which all the African countries are talking about as the, as the. As a country to replicate because there's so much consistency between the first team, the under 23 team, the under 21s, Ivory Coast, I don't know. I mean, I. I think they've got a chance, but I think they're just that little layer below the favorites at the moment.
- [28:32]
Jay Harris
Just a couple of things I wanted to mention. Si was talking about past winners doing really badly. It's even worse than he mentioned. So if I'm correct, none of the previous winners have reached the quarterfinals of the following edition since Egypt won it back to. Back to back Ivory coast and Algeria, who were the holders and then got knocked out in 2017, I think 2021. So there's this sense of the AFCON holders curse. And I think the most surprising omission from the team for me is Simon A. Dingra is not in the squad and A. Dingra was the player along with Helair. Both of them were injured at the group stages of the last afcon, came back in the latter Stages and A Dingra set up both goals in the AFCON final.
- [29:12]
Ayo Akimolere
And Alert scored in the final, didn't he?
- [29:14]
Jay Harris
And Heller scored in the final and they've been left out. But Zaha, who's not been called up for two years, is back in the squad. So that certainly caught my eye and I think is a little bit strange, but I do think maybe in comparison to some other teams, there is quality throughout this Ivory coast squad. You know, they've got Ahmad Diala out wide. They've got Indico and Kasunu who are really good, solid center back partnership. They've got Sangare and Kessier and Seko for Ghana. So when everything's structured, they're a very good team.
- [29:43]
Ayo Akimolere
All right, gents, we have to talk about Cameroon. We're just sticking with West Africa right now because when we talk drama, it hasn't even kicked off yet and there's already drama with Cameroon. They've already named two squads for the tournament. Also there are questions about leadership. There are questions about the coach as well. Jay, can you sum this up very, very quickly? I'm going to give you like a minute, see if you could sum it up in a minute. It for the people listening at home, okay?
- [30:09]
Jay Harris
Cameroon failed to qualify for the World cup last month. They lost to Dr. Congo in the semi final. In the playoff semi final, manager Mark Breeze has been sacked as a result. But there's always been underlying tension with Mark Paris and Samuel eto, the former Chelsea, Inter Milan and Barcelona striker. ETO has been careful, careful, how can we say the sinner in the most sensible way possible, has made some interesting choices over the last couple of years. Our colleague Adam Levitar was has reported on it a lot. If you want to go and check it out and prevent me from getting tongue tied or worse. And ETO sat Mark Breeze and installed David Pagu two three weeks before the tournament. So you have a situation where a new head coach is coming in and he will never have done a training session with these players because he's just in charge of a local side in Cameroon, I believe. It's not like he was an existing member of the backroom staff. Never taken charge of a training session, never taken charge of a match. Senior players have been left out of the squad, including Andrea Nana, Vincent Abubakar, Andre Frank, Zone one, Gisa Eric Maxim, Chupa Moting. So lots of strange things going on. Mark Bree still, I believe, released his own AFCON squad list, including those players. I still can't quite work out what squad list is the official squad list at the moment, it's just absolute chaos to go into a tournament where you sack your head coach, you install someone else, you leave out some of your most senior players. If we're talking about surprise packages at this tournament, Cameroon are going to be a surprise package. They're going to be a surprise package for all the wrong reasons. I think they're. They are going to crash and burn spectacularly.
- [31:45]
Ayo Akimolere
All right, well done, mate. Well surmised there, Si. This is absolute bonkers, isn't it? Very quickly. I mean, the Samuel ETO thing, the leadership thing, the two team thing and also the coaching thing, it's absolute bonkers. But it wouldn't be AFCON without it.
- [32:00]
Si Hughes
You've got to look at it, you know, from, from the top. You've a division at the top when it comes to decisions between the Sports Ministry and the fa, both making decisions that seem to be in spite of one another. So, you know, it's not exactly a recipe for unity, is it? The lack of sorts of clarity in the chain of command from the very top of, you know, the federation just shows itself much further down below. And it goes back to the point I said earlier. You know, I think at the moment the countries in Africa that have the best teams are the ones that have the most organized federations and that is the world over. You know, sometimes you might get a country that does exceptionally well in spite of the problems, but at the moment it just feels Cameroon are right on the back foot. I agree with Jay. I think it'd be a major surprise if they, if they did well in this competition. They were very poor, I thought, in the last one as well, weren't they, Jay? They were just a mess, like no identifiable way of playing. Some, some top quality players at some of the top European clubs, but just nothing seemed to make sense.
- [33:03]
Jay Harris
That's the thing. People will look at that squad and go, oh, they've got Carlos Bilaba and they've got Brian and Buemo and Bremo on the best forwards in the league. Balaba, who has the potential to be one of the best midfielders in the league. And they'll think on those two players alone, they'll get through. But it's so much more complicated than that.
- [33:19]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. All right, so talk about Senegal super quickly. Sedio Mane, is he going to be.
- [33:23]
Si Hughes
Playing well at the moment? That's the big conversation in Senegal. He will play. I mean, the coach, the coaches said that basically in not so many words, that Sadio Mane will decide when he comes out of the team, which I think is a very diplomatic way of saying, yes, he will start. I'm putting the pressure on him a little bit. I mean, he's not the Sadio Mane of three or four years ago, but, you know, he will always back himself to be a key player in this team. And I think what. What is good about the Senegal team is got a nice mix of the experienced players who met, you know, let's face it, coming to the back end of the career, but they manage this. This sort of phasing of the young players into the team as well. So it's a team with lots of energy. Much more attacking team than in the last AFCON as well. They've changed managers since the last. Last afcon and the new coach is very sort of from focused. They've got, I would say, a very sort of friendly group. And then if they finish top, you could see a situation where it's Morocco, Senegal final, I think.
- [34:25]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, fantastic. Well, honestly, so many more storylines we haven't even had time to cover. There's South Africa and also Sudan, who are currently in the midst of conflict as well, which is absolutely fascinating. They've got a squad at this tournament. But more of this will be unraveling as we cover AFCON here on the Athletic over the coming weeks. Gents, my final question for you two really is who do you think is going to win it? Jay, I'm putting you on the spot right now. Let's do it.
- [34:49]
Jay Harris
Well, a couple of days ago, I said that South Africa were my dark horses because they've got a really good squad at the moment, mainly based the players from their domestically. They've got one of the best domestic leagues in. In Africa. They reached the semi finals of the last afcon. They topped their World cup qualifying group. But their head coach, Hugo Bruce, has come out and said some, well, absolutely horrible comments, allegedly about one of their defenders. For anybody listening, please check them out. But we should point out that since that press conference, Hugo Bruce has said he wanted to apologize, as his choice of words was not the right one. It's good that he's come out and made that apology, but I think this will still be a cloud that hangs over South Africa at the beginning of the tournament.
- [35:34]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, so what are you thinking?
- [35:35]
Si Hughes
I'm tempted to say Morocco, but I just think the pressure that they're facing could be unbearable. I mean, we see them through the prism of the World cup when there was. They were surprised, but they weren't under pressure. You know, generally, you know, outside of Morocco, I'd say, and even inside Morocco, there was a feeling that they could do well, but not that well. Whereas on this occasion, they're expected to do well amidst a very complicated social picture in Morocco as well. At the moment, you know, the, it's been quite clear, you know, that despite the appetite for football, Morocco is a huge football country. But there are people who are opposing, you know, the idea that these football stadiums should be built for the 2030 World cup, for, you know, some of the improvements in, you know, that being made for this competition. So they're facing more than just football pressure, I think, and it could count against them. So for that reason, I'm going to say Senegal.
- [36:25]
Ayo Akimolere
All right, Sij, appreciate your time. Safe journey to Morocco, whichever way you're getting there. All right, next we speak to former Ghana manager Chris Houghton about what it's actually like to manage at avcon.
- [36:46]
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- [37:57]
Ayo Akimolere
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- [39:57]
Podcast Narrator
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with ayawakamolere.
- [40:01]
Ayo Akimolere
All right, let's round things off then. So delighted to welcome Chris Houghton to the show, the man who has plenty of managerial experience in the league system, but also a man who was in charge of Ghana for AFCON in 2024. Chris, so good to have you. Look, we're just days before the tournament kicks. Are you looking forward to it?
- [40:21]
Si Hughes
I am.
- [40:21]
Chris Houghton
I think the only thing that I think it's normal as we all know here. You know, there are, you know, four other leagues, but the Premier League takes huge priority in everybody's thinking and the amount of coverage and probably AFCON has been mentioned mostly because some players, of course from the Premier League will be will be going, but probably still hasn't got the coverage that I think it deserves.
- [40:49]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, for sure. I mean taking Ghana to an AFCON is powerful on one thing, but secondly, you've got the insight, you know what it means to the fans, not just across the African continent, but across the world. What did you take from Ghana and taking them to afcon and what did you feel from the fans as well?
- [41:07]
Chris Houghton
Well, I mean, first and foremost I had a relatively short period as technical advisor which ended up being more of a support role for the head coach, Otu Addu, and then I took the role as head coach and one of the Main reasons I took the job was the opportunity to take the team to an afcon, to a major championship, and obviously try to do well there. So something that, for me, the experience was probably everything that I thought about with afcon. We were delighted with the facilities that we had, which, if I think of AFCONs in the past, I would think. I would think. And I know it's in Morocco now, and of course, their facilities are fabulous. The infrastructures are very good. But the facilities which were hotel, the training grounds, were exceptional. Exceptional. And that was. I think they built a separate training facility for every team that performed in afcon. And what they were going to do that was a legacy for all of the local teams that were then going, in effect, take that over. It was still a huge privilege for me to manage a team in what, for me is still a massive tournament, particularly a massive tournament when you're spending time in Ghana. And I think for your average Ghanaian, this is as big as the World Cup. World cup will get more coverage. But to be crowned king and champions of Africa, for some, is bigger than winning the World Cup.
- [42:45]
Si Hughes
Cup.
- [42:45]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And as we're talking of that, I know Ghana have qualified for the World cup, and what's interesting is they haven't qualified for this AFCON. They haven't won the trophy since 1982. How deeply will that cut the fans? I know the World Cup's one thing, but this is about African pride right now.
- [43:03]
Chris Houghton
Yeah, no, I think the balance is. And what softens. I think what softens the blow is, is that, of course, a team have qualified for the World Cup. And I think the fact that the World cup is, you know, is only some six months later, I think that softens the blow a little bit, but it's still a big dent.
- [43:23]
Ayo Akimolere
We always talk about. And it's something that came up in the conversations before you joined when the tournament is hosted. And obviously, there's always an issue with European leagues, the Premier League, saying, oh, you're taking our best players and they're going to go off and play this tournament. But then you've got an issue whereby, let's say, I don't know if you want to play in the summer after most respective European leagues are done. There's other tournaments that also take place then as well from UEFA and also FIFA. How hard is it for a tournament like this to find the credibility it truly deserves amidst these pressures from the bigger European leagues?
- [44:00]
Chris Houghton
Yeah, I think the difficulty is the World cup is always going to be the biggest tournament. So this is going to get the coverage. This is. This is a tournament that everything else has to and. And. And has to work around. And probably that is. It is correct, but it's taking things into perspective. You know, the. The African cup of nation is. Is a huge tournament, and the level of the tournament of the AFCON itself has continued to rise because of the quality of player. So it has to be worked for me very much around the World cup. But the importance of it for me is greater now than it's ever been. So what we shouldn't have is managers almost complaining that they're losing their players to afcon because these are players that when they signed them, when they took them on, they knew that they were African players, knew what the African cup of nations meant to players, to these clubs, to these supporters. And this should all be taken into the. Into the equation.
- [45:11]
Ayo Akimolere
Chris, I really want to ask you a question, something that's been bugging me a little bit over time, especially with African players. How tricky can it be to lure in players with dual nationality, I. E. Top players with African ancestry who might also be eligible to play for European teams as well?
- [45:28]
Chris Houghton
Generally you're not going to persuade somebody. Somebody either wants to play. So if we are talking Ghanaians, somebody that's maybe a second generation Ghanaian born in England, Ghanaian parents, well, he knows he's Ghanaian. He knows he has Ghanaian parentage, he knows he can play for Ghana. So when I speak with him, I'm not speaking with him. That's something that he hasn't already thought about. So I think what you can do is you can generally have them conversations. What it's like where I see you, do I think you'll be a main starter? Will you be a squad? All of them sort of conversations around it which can make a difference. Do I think I'm going to play? It's very difficult to promise somebody they're going to play. So all of these things around it. But generally, if a player wants to play and the player wants to submit himself to, whether it Ghana, Nigeria, Senegal or whatever, then he will do, because all of them thought processes he's already had.
- [46:32]
Ayo Akimolere
We've spoken about Ghana, your time there. We've spoken about some of the political issues that might reign between European leagues and also AFCON itself. But more importantly, we haven't talked to you about the football. Who's winning this rendition of AFCON this time around? Who's taking it? Which is your strongest team that you can see right now that might lift.
- [46:50]
Chris Houghton
This trophy, it's a difficult one. You know, the, the favorites, I presume Morocco would be favorites and, and credit to them. You know, their infrastructure, what they've put into the game, and young players that they're developing over a period of time are coming through under 21, so got some excellent players. So probably, I would still have to say, even though they've got the pressure of playing at home, I think they are probably the strongest nation, the outsiders. I don't know if Ghana was there. Certainly what I would have is I would have an insight into, you know, the levels of the Ghana empires, but generally you're looking at the stronger nations. You know, Senegals, South Africa were mentioned and for me, South Africa are one of those ones. Did well in the last afcon, and I think they've almost sort of quietly gone along with the progress that they've made. And I would see them maybe as somebody that's outsiders, but I think it's very, very difficult to pick anybody, you know, apart from Morocco because. Because they're at home. I think they've. They've got an experience enough squad now. I think the fact that they've. They obviously did very well in the last World Cup, I think they have enough experience to better cope with sort of the. The home pressures. But for me, the last one was if I looked at Nigeria, a former.
- [48:21]
Ayo Akimolere
Ghanaian coach is going to say Nigeria. I was not expecting this. Oh, okay.
- [48:25]
Chris Houghton
Well, no, I was going to speak about Nigeria in the last afcon.
- [48:28]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay.
- [48:29]
Chris Houghton
And in the last. I thought they were excellent. I must have in the last afcon played. Played a different system and, and in the Premier League. Now that, you know, a lot of people are speaking about the right ways and the teams that are doing well playing the three at the back, two aggressive wing backs. I thought Nigeria had done that ever so well. So it's very difficult for me to say anybody, but. But of course Morocco, because they're at home. I think they've got the. The strength in depth and I think they've got. They've got the. The experience. But I'm looking forward to certainly an. Entertain. The pitches will be very good. So certainly, no, no excuses, no complaints, but really looking forward to it.
- [49:11]
Ayo Akimolere
Let's leave it there. Chris, really appreciate your time and also Jay and Tsai's safe journeys to Morocco as well. Remember, AFCON kicks off this Sunday, 21st December, and runs until the final on Sunday 18th January. We'll catch you soon.
- [49:29]
Podcast Narrator
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabre and Jay Beale. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and Aid Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC page podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC podcast is an athletic media company production.
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