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- [00:00]
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- [00:31]
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- [01:01]
Noah Chestnut
Hey, it's Noah Chestnut from the Athletic. If you're into games and sports, pay attention. I'm going to give you four sports terms. You tell me the common thread. Ready? Game. Match point. Set. This one's kind of a gimme. The answer is how tennis is scored. Do you want more of a challenge? Check out Connections Sports Edition. It's a new daily game for sports fans to play now. Go to TheAthletic.com connections.
- [01:34]
Podcast Host
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [01:41]
Ayo Akimolere
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere defeated Spurs last weekend, left Manchester United in 15th place in the table.
- [01:48]
Podcast Host
It's fired in by Maddison and Tottenham rig.
- [01:51]
Ayo Akimolere
Next up, they take on a resurgent Everton, managed by the first person challenged with bringing back the good times to Old Trafford. So from David Moyes to Ruben Amorin, United seem to be stuck in a cycle of underperformance. So what is preventing them from moving forward? Joining us today we have the Athletics, Adam Krafton, Karl Anker and Ollie Kay as well. Adam, let's start with you. Look, there were seven academy players on the bench at the weekend. Was that unfortunate because of injuries or maybe a sign of things a little deeper?
- [02:25]
Podcast Host
Well, if you're using academy players, that's a good news story. But as ever with Manchester United, a good news story is spun by the media into something very negative. No, I think the situation with the academy players on the bench over the weekend was just quite unlucky. Right. They had a week of training where Everything that could go wrong did go wrong, injuries wise. You know, we can talk about squad composition. Clearly it's a squad that. I know we've been using this term for many, many years now, but it's a squad that is in a transition phase. You know, you've just moved out Rashford and Anthony. So ye.
- [03:00]
Charlotte Harper
Yeah.
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Podcast Host
There's an argument United should have brought a forward in that would have definitely helped on Sunday and helps in general. But equally, you know, you can't really account for a week where you just lose all your midfield options.
- [03:13]
Ollie Kay
I'm also what you see guys and why, why you discussed every week. I also, I also see. So I have my idea, you have yours. I have a lot of problems. My job is so hard but I'm here to continue my job to the next week with my beliefs. I will try to do it and try to win again.
- [03:32]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, Oli, we also need to talk about the manager slightly. Ruben Namorim has endured the worst start to any manager post Ferguson in the Premier League. The defeat at Tottenham was United's eighth in 14 Premier League games under Amarim with only four wins to his name. I mean, why is his job so far so hard as he says it?
- [03:53]
Adam Crafton
I think because there's a total disconnect between his vision and the squad he's inherited and the fact that the club went from buying players for one manager who they'd eventually decided to stick with at the end of last season after a really poor season in the Premier League. They stuck with Erik Ten Hag. They bought players for Erik Ten Hag's system only to sack him. I think rightly, probably too late if anything, a couple of months into the season and then appoint a manager with a totally different playing style and total, totally different technical requirements for, for his way of playing and they don't seem to have the, the players to play his system. I think that is a real problem and I think it's. You would say, well wait until Amarim has got the players to play his way. But it's. I don't know. A lot of the noises we're hearing about United's finances and so on suggest that he's. He is going to have to make to amend to a certain extent. I'm sure there will be money spent in the summer but at the moment it looks like it's taking an awfully long time for him to get his ideas across and he, he must be just, well, A, counting down the days at the end of the season but B, probably wishing he'd stayed at Sporting, which if you remember was his instinct when, when United came calling in October, he wanted to stay there to the rest of the season. United said no. Come now. As low as people's expectations were, as much as anyone thought it wasn't a quick fix, I think it's been worse than anybody probably imagined.
- [05:28]
Podcast Host
Ollie, can I just come in on that? Where, where we're saying, you know, this squad can't play Amaroum's system. Right. That's the evidence that we're, we're seeing at the moment. There's a few things that you'd kind of raised with that. The first one is during the end of 10 hags period, you had quite a lot of people looking at United's squad saying they six or seven first team central defenders, why don't they try three at the bat? Now clearly there's different ways of playing three at the back, five at the back, different systems within that. So, okay, even if you take the view these players can't adapt to this or are going to take a very long time to adapt to it, the club know or knew then their financial situation. They also knew then there was a major risk of being outside the Champions League for a second year in a row. So there was never likely to be an outcome whereby the end of this summer, for example, you have a squad that is perfect for Amaroom. So is it unreasonable to also have expected him to have been able to take this group of players a little bit further? Maybe open this up to Carl as well, given you're there every week? Regretfully, regretfully. But is it unfair to have expected him to actually have made more progress, you know, over 20 games so far, given what, what's available to him, that.
- [06:44]
Karl Anker
Is a totally fair assessment. We, we said this about erik10hag, we're saying this about Reuben Amrun, in that sometimes the Manchester United manager gets dealt a suboptimal poker hand. But when you're playing these sorts of games, you have to be able to use them wisely. With Erik 10 Hag, it became very evident partway through last season that he essentially forfeited central areas of midfield. And when the majority of my centre backs are best defending in and around my own box, and my attackers are best at counter attacking. So we're going to play ping pong, counter attacking football. Fair enough. And you're going, surely there's a better way to control things. But hey, you won an FA cup, so it worked to an extent. With Amoran, there are two or three personnel changes that seem a little bit more obvious to those in and around the Premier League and working at other Premier League clubs. So yes, Manchester United have a lot of defenders, but a lot of those defenders are quite similar. So if you look at take a centre back like say Harry Maguire, he's not too dissimilar to Matthias De Ligt. You can say which one is better whatnot. But these are centre backs who aren't the quickest, want to do the majority of their defending while facing the opposition. Goal. And they're not the best when defending large areas of space. What they need is more defenders that are a little bit like Raphael Varem, who have recovery pace, have the ability to turn around and retreat. Unfortunately they only have one of those players really and that's the 18 year old Lenny Yoro and he's been injured for the majority of the season. He's still coming back. So how do you balance things in your back three? One of the solutions is you perhaps play one of your fullbacks there be it Masrari. And we're seeing that in the last since Lisandro Martinez has been injured. Masraui has now come into the back three and all of a sudden the buildup plays slightly quicker because Masraui is better at releasing the ball compared to say De Ligt or Maguire. There's also a big thing if you're watching Man United all the time you're like this back three is so slow. Five was so slow. How do you get things quicker? And you talk about this gap Amin talks about refers to the wing backs as wingers and yet he's constantly playing fullbacks there. Diogo Dalo has many talents. He is not a final third player. He cannot cross the ball consistently. He's also right footed and he's playing on the left hand side. So he's always constantly coming inside. Masrai for all of his qualities, not a final third player was. Was kind of that player. Ajax was not very much that player Bayern Munich. So you do need to play more attacking players in your wing back positions. To which the question was why? Why are we not playing Amad more at right wing back Now Amin's answer to that is well, essentially he need Ahmed might be better close to goal. Ahmad wants to go inside and outside. So there are. There are two or three things in terms of personnel that Amren could have done or is. Is now beginning to do to make things easier when. But and I'm going to be very, very blunt about this. Yes, the current Manchester United squad composition, the class of 24, 25. The Vintage how it is is not suited to play Amarin's style of football. It's also not suited to play Erik Ten Hag's style of football. It's not suited to play any style of football, quite frankly, because it is one of the worst assembled squads you will ever see in world football. In terms of money spent to quality there, this is like getting filet mignon, but burning it to a well done consistency, then getting some very good potatoes, mashing it to just a pulp with not even good butter, like cheap butter, then getting a bunch of custard, pouring it all over the meal and covering it with caviar. Okay, yeah. You spent a lot of money and you've created a meal, but if you eat it.
- [10:20]
Podcast Host
Oh, oh, did you have a really bad Valentine's, Cole? Was that.
- [10:25]
Karl Anker
I had a lovely Valentine's Day.
- [10:27]
Ayo Akimolere
Thank you, Carl. That brings me to the point, actually. It's really interesting you mentioned that because, look, recruitment is really fascinating and even if you look as far as, you know, David Moyes and what he's done since he's left Manchester United, I don't want to say the name Anthony because obviously, I don't know, man, that's. The sample size is way too small at Betis, but optics wise, it looks like he's enjoying himself elsewhere. Looks like David Moyes enjoyed himself elsewhere winning, you know, a wonderful European title with West Ham. I'm just thinking about how Manchester United really prepare people to come to Manchester United because look at any major club in the world. Bayern Munich, Real Madrid, they bring people in. Of course, not everyone succeeds, but there's an environment there where people can flourish and people do get better. What's different at Manchester United?
- [11:14]
Karl Anker
They don't have that. Bluntly, they don't. We know how good Bayern Munich look after football players. When Callum Hudson Odoi was being tipped to join Bayern Munich, we at the Athletic reported a very, very comprehensive plan by Munich gave to Hudson Odoi and it was also part of their reaction to. We completely got Renato Sanchez's signing to Bayern Munich wrong. And they told Callum Hudson Odoi they're going to come in, we're going to make sure you have German lessons. We're going to make sure that even if you're not in the first team lineup, you're going to have access to the first team dressing room after home games so you can constantly be in that environment regardless of your minutes. They were going to very much place him in and around an area in Munich or where Upavaria, where he'd be comfortable and be close to his friends. He'd also have links to whatever sort of family support he needed. This is what a modern football club does. And that's when that's for a football player who didn't arrive. And we know Bayern Mute does this again and again and again and again and again. We know Manchester City have former Google employees in terms of relocation. And at Manchester United, I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying we don't hear that to the extent that we should for a football club of this size. There are fantastic articles about how Real Madrid goes out and recruits Brazilian football players and make sure Brazilian football players are well looked after. There is a great piece on a website that isn't the Athletic, so I can't name it, and it talks about Brazilian football players in the Premier League and how in 2019, there are two big Premier League group chats for Brazilian football players. And if you sign for a club in the north, Roberto Firmino put you in the group chat and he'd do the big text for which you want your meat. And you can go around to his house and get all the meat for the barbecue. And if you live in the south, David Luis will take care of that. This is probably why Willian is constantly living in the same, like four, three areas in London, because he's probably the kingpin of Brazil football players in in the south. And again, we just don't hear that with Manchester United. A lot of the time when you do get the rare moments when you get to interview a Man United football player, you go, who are your friends in the dressing room? And it's all kind of, I kind of hang out with this person. I kind of hang out with this person. You don't really hear that. We all go to the cinema and do whatever. You don't see that photograph of Arsenal players, I mean, Mikel Arteta's Arsenal, very often you see the young players, they all go out together and their girlfriends all going out together and you don't see that going on at Manchester United. There is a institutional apparatus that exists at some of the biggest football clubs in the world and also some of the middleweight football clubs in the world that hasn't. It doesn't feel like it's been there at Manchester United for quite some time.
- [13:46]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, that's so interesting. Adam, you've tweeted about one thing, actually. The difficulty of accepting the possibility of writing off this seat season. And I wonder what that's doing to fans. I know writing off the seasons a plausible concept, but being 15th, I'm not sure is a plausible concept for a lot of Manchester United fans. Manchester United in those years of Ferguson in the Premier League maybe only came second maybe four or five times. I mean, is this a fan base that's used to being in this position and can you understand their frustrations as well?
- [14:15]
Podcast Host
I can understand their frustrations, but I just think it's pointless talking about. I mean, I, I never really want to hear about the treble again. Like we've had our fill of nostalgia, right, coming out of that club and the stories of what it used to be like. Let's deal with the reality of what, what it is rather than what it was. And even, even the, you know, the kind of we're going to achieve this by 2028 kind of stuff, Right, Okay. It's good to have expectations because I have ambition, but you know, this mission that they have to win the Premier league title by 2028. Okay, but like, let's just deal with where you are. Where you are is over the last 38 Premier League games, you know, if you take the sample size over the last 38 Premier League games Man United have played, they have 45 points, right? Their level is exactly where they are, right? Just above relegation. That's, you know, that's the kind of points you see 16th, 15th, 14th, 13th. So it's an entirely accurate reflection. You know, they're not underperforming. You know, points to performances, you know, even the games they've won actually under Ruben Amarine against Southampton, they probably should have lost F him away, probably should have been a draw. You know, the games that they've impressed in are games where they've not really played. I don't think how he imagined Man United that he wants them to play. You know, it's been a very kind of sit in and counterattack the way that they've taken points off big teams over the past few years under different managers. But the point I was making was when Ruben Amarim came in, there's two ways of looking at it. The first way of looking at it is actually after that little mini bounce they had under Ruud Van Nistelrooy, when Amarim actually came, they were four points off the Champions League places, right? So the idea that, you know, this was going to be an impossible job, it didn't feel like that. You know, when they were going to Ipswich that day, you were looking at a Runner fixtures thinking, oh, man United could you know, now 10 Hag's gone, they could shake up a little bit. Now the flip side of that is he is so devoted to his system, his way of playing, that there is this kind of far away promised land nirvana where Manchester United say, we don't just want to get better this season and go from, you know, 15th to 9th or 8th. What we want to do is have a team that can win a Premier League title. Right, Fair enough. So under that view, you go all in, right, on this system and that means sucking up a hell of a lot of pain this season and basically, yeah, accepting that whatever happens, happens. They're not going to get relegated because Ipswich and Leicester can't win a football match. Right?
- [16:43]
Karl Anker
So let's just say that before United play Ipswich, but this is the brave, brave, brave man.
- [16:49]
Ayo Akimolere
Don't do that.
- [16:50]
Podcast Host
I promise you, Man United will not get relegated. So, so the worst thing that's going to happen is that they'll finish, you know, 15th, 16th. Okay? Right. It's embarrassing. It's very damaging from a point per place finish because each place that you finish in the Premier League, you, you get more money. So, you know when they're talking about, I don't know, 10 to 20 million pounds worth of cuts in the latest round of redundancies, well, you worry about if there's another 10, 15 million that they miss out on from being 15th instead of 8th or something like that. So you can't completely write a season off. But what you can say is you are so wedded to this system that you believe that if you start to build the team through Amarim and invest in what he wants, then he may take you to a certain place. The problem is the caveats to all of this is when you're on that journey, you need glimpses along the way of what it might be. And unfortunately, over the kind of 20 games or so he's been there, these have been so, so few and far between. And that's not me sort of criticizing him or saying he should be under pressure, but when you're asking people to believe in a distant project, you know, when Jurgen Klopp came into Liverpool, it wasn't brilliant, you know, results wise the first six months, but they had maybe five or six games in that period where you could say, I can see Klopp's gonna try to do here and why it should be supported. Because the other bit is this summer, Man United are gonna spend money. Now, are they gonna do what they've, what they've done? Well, they are they are. They're gonna sell players and they're gonna spend money and what's gonna happen is they're gonna buy players for a specific manager, for a specific system. Now if next season goes really, really wrong, until November, December, Amarine's not gonna have. May not, depending what happens over the next few months, may not have credit in the bank. It'll mean patience is very thin and sudden. Just like last summer where you spent on Eric 10 Hag's players, you spent a ton of money again on players suited to one manager's system. The next manager comes in, doesn't play with wing backs with three, five, two or whatever and three, four, three. And now they're back in that place and in an even worse financial situation, the cycle continues. So that's the kind of dynamic that I think the club will now be worrying about.
- [19:11]
Karl Anker
Adam uses the word embarrassing in that very well delivered monologue. Oli, you've been in this industry a lot longer than I have. Can I ask.
- [19:21]
Podcast Host
I'm me. Can I ask?
- [19:24]
Adam Crafton
You're embarrassing me.
- [19:25]
Karl Anker
Do Manchester United look like a football club that's afraid of being embarrassed?
- [19:29]
Adam Crafton
Well, I know what you mean. In some ways the appointments they've made, the transfers they've made in the last, let's say eleven and a half years post thugs and have been about making sure they never fall far. It's always been about, it's always been fairly short term. Van Hal was a, was undoubtedly a short term appointment. Mourinho was Solskjaer in a different way because they, they felt this bounce. It's a lot of the transfers, Varane Ronaldo, Casemiro, Falcao Ibrahimovic, etc. There's always been this sense that we need to get, we need to get back to an acceptable Manchester United level quickly and they never have, they've never, they've, they've hit second place on a couple of season seasons but it's never, they've never or rarely, rarely, rarely looked like the best second best team in the country over that period. And frequently they've not looked one of the top four top five teams in the country. So I think there's been a sort of desperation to paper over over the cracks or gloss over the cracks, do glossy things, do showy things that will have a short term effect. I don't think there's ever really been a willingness at United to take maybe two steps back, to take four or five steps forward, which I would say is what Arsenal did under Arteta and did it really well. It's very hard to sort of strip everything back and streamline everything and then build because there's always this desire to preserve what you've got. But it feels to me like the two steps back stage is what United are going through at the moment. The difficulty is are they going to take those four or five steps forward if they finish 15th, 14th, 13th, wherever this season, is that a spring, is that rock bottom, then they bounce up or is it a case that they are just completely stagnating? As Adam said earlier, you need, even if this is a season of rebuilding transition, write it off results wise. You need real signs of progress. And I what worries me, I know we talked about the formation earlier, but when he's, when he's so wedded to the it feels like he's more wedded to the the structure, the formation 3, 4, 3 than a particular way of playing. I've seen, I've seen the midfield look completely different from one game to the other. I've seen the, the front three look completely different from one game to the other. So it feels like what we're seeing is not particularly a manager implementing a playing philosophy, a playing style. We're seeing a manager sticking to a structure that to me seems dangerously dogmatic. You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Accamolere.
- [22:14]
Podcast Host
I can say to my new Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra, hey, find a keto.
- [22:18]
Karl Anker
Friendly restaurant nearby and text it to Beth and Steve.
- [22:21]
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- [22:22]
Podcast Host
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- [22:26]
Noah Chestnut
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- [22:30]
Podcast Host
Credit.
- [22:31]
Noah Chestnut
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- [22:44]
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- [23:17]
Ayo Akimolere
Let'S bring in our Manchester United writer Charlotte Harper. Charlotte, you have an excellent exclusive interview on the Athletic with former Manchester United defender Raphael Varane. He had a lot to say about his time at Old Trafford under Erik Ten Hag, didn't he?
- [23:32]
Charlotte Harper
He didn't mince his words, but sitting down with Raphael, he's very softly spoken. So it kind of just rolled off the tongue that, yeah, I had a complicated relationship with Erik. It was idiosyncratic, it was tense. These are the words that he's using, ups and downs. And I think that was highlight because he had come from Real Madrid, where there was a lot of stability, four Champions League titles, playing under Zidane, and in his first years at the club, Ancelotti. So it was a big contrast then when you're coming in four managers in his first year. But we know that erik10hag was very prescriptive, very rigid in his tactical game plans. That was complete contrast to Real Madrid, where Varane played with instinct. He did say he had a heated discussion, mousquele, he said in French, muscled, robust. Around November time, when he didn't play, even though he was fit, he said he told the manager some home truths. Eric put his version of events forward as well. And so, yeah, it was complicated. But he did credit him for allowing Varane to come back for the FA Cup Final, and he loved that moment. And what Varane is clever with, he was very erudite, very articulate, that he's saying, look, I'm not pointing the finger here. I'm not going to slate the club. I want the club to do well. This is supposed to come across in a constructive way.
- [25:06]
Ayo Akimolere
Oli Varane also talks about. It's a really good piece, actually, Charlotte, the lack of clear decision making and structure at Manchester United. And is this being born out of what we're seeing on the pitch at this moment in time? Because I think about. I know we don't want to dwell on nostalgia, but I'm thinking about a Manchester United team that dominated for so long, but also the Premier League has changed so much. And when we compare them to the likes of Real Madrid, perhaps, or Bayern Munich, very different league structures and very different levels of investment. But if Manchester United don't update their structure, this is where we see what we're seeing on the pitch right now.
- [25:42]
Adam Crafton
Yeah, it's interesting that there was a number of years where if you were writing something about Manchester United and you were criticizing them and criticizing their recruitment and criticizing the lack of vision and poor structure and inadequate personnel, you would get people from the club expressing displeasure about, about those sentiments and saying, no, no, no, it's not, you know, we're doing Everything Liverpool do, we're doing everything Man City do, we, we've overhauled this, we've done that. And then eventually you get to the point where they say, no, things have got to change. We're now doing a cultural reset, we're overhauling our recruitment, our strategy, our medical facilities, our training facilities. Eventually they always try to catch up, but they've never caught up. At any point in the last 10, 11 years, I think they've been complacent as a club. They've not known what to do in which direction to go in. And I think they've finally, you know, they finally appoint a competent, proven, experienced sporting director, Dan Ashworth, in the summer, considerable expense, and let him go by mutual consent after, after a few months, again at great expense. I don't understand it. The big question about United has been what, what is the vision? What, what is the vision? What who is implementing that is. Are you just sort of going from transfer window to transfer window, from manager to manager from season to season, that sort of short term, trying to gloss over the cracks every, every summer, as they often did with big signings, ronaldo, Varane, Casamiro, etc. And that's what it's felt like they've been doing. And now they've got, they have stripped back things. Cincinnatius has come in, they've made big appointments and overhauled this and that. I still absolutely unclear as to what the structure and what the strategy is. I know, I've heard this. The vision being let's win our 21st league title. Great. But how? When?
- [27:48]
Podcast Host
And I think 20, 28.
- [27:50]
Adam Crafton
Well, yeah, yeah, it's coming out of the Varane interview. It just reflects that the players just felt that, you know, they were doing their bit but they weren't really part of a, any great sort of sports project. It was just they were playing, they may or may not like the manager's way of doing things, but they didn't feel like they were part of a, any great strategy, vision, etc. So that's, I don't know. There are just alarm bells in every direction and I think the expectation among some fans was that Ineos were going to come out, you know, good old Sir Jim, good old Dave Brailsford, Dan Ashworth, they're all going to sort it all out. And as yet, pretty much year in they look further, further away than from sorting it.
- [28:36]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. Adam Varana also speaks about too many people being involved in the decision making. Is it fair to say Manchester United are an old fashioned club trying to sort of operate in what feels like a digital age is too much of what happened in the past. And you don't want to talk about nostalgia, but there's too much of holding on to that and everyone else just seems to have moved on because they're trying to get to the top, their very selves.
- [29:00]
Podcast Host
To be fair, I don't think Ineos can be accused of that. You know, when you look at some of the decisions they're made around, you know, cutting Alex Ferguson's ambassadorial ship, I mean, that's not something the Glazers would ever have, ever have dared to do. Or I know the Glazers, you know, clearly are on board with the stuff that is happening and aren't stepping in, but it's not something they would have done if they were in sole ownership, you know, and ex players roles being cut and stuff like that, so. And even things like considering, you know, letting Mainoo or Garnacho go, which they may have to do this summer, you know, if the right bids come in again, I think they are moving away from a kind of nostalgia and almost to a fault, actually. You know, when you look at. You're almost looking at Manchester United and saying, what does Manchester United stand for anymore? Does it just stand for trimming costs and. And that kind of thing? On the flip side of that is they've lost, you know, over 300 million over the last five years and. And they have to do a little bit of that. So it's, it's not an easy inheritance by any means whatsoever. Now the problem with that is they, if they'd done their due diligence, they should have known this wasn't an easy inheritance, that this, you know, the running, I would say the football club outside of Barcelona and Real Madrid, that by far and away gets the most global attention in the world. You know, from an English football point of view, it's only really England joined tournaments that gets, you know, the level of scrutiny and things like that. You know, stories are stories at Man United that just wouldn't be other clubs. The challenge is now for Ineos that, you know, they came in and I went to Ratcliffe, did a kind of a round table with journalists, I think maybe February last year, shortly after coming in, and he was saying then that, you know, the game model that Manchester United would have, would be imposed by kind of sporting director, the experts that they hire. And now, you know, we're a year down the line and the game model seems to be entirely back at the behest of a head coach, which again puts you back on that, that cycle of acquiring players for a specific system rather than a club vision. Now, that may work out if Amarim turns out to be a fantastic appointment and everything goes well and they win the title in 2028. But it's not what they said it was going to be back then. Mark Critchley, our colleague, did a really good piece last week about Man United's situation with Data, which is interesting because Jim Ratcliffe himself, in an interview with the United We Stand fanzine, I think he called it what century did he called it last century. What's really interesting there now is there's been such a big turnover of executive staff at United over the past 12 to 18 months. The CEOs left the interim CEO, Patrick Stewart, then left the first one, Richard Arnold, the commercial lead. That's, you know, Man United's accounts today were praising their deal with Qualcomm and Snapdragon. Well, they've turfed out the people that did that deal or they've chosen to leave because they don't want to continue to work there. And there's been a huge amount of change that I think. Dom Jordan, who was previously working on Data, has now left the club as well. INEOS have brought in a guy called Gary Hemingway who previously worked for one of INEOS subsidiaries. And his role staff of being told is a kind of Venn diagram of, let me get this right, infrastructure projects and football data. Now you've got to have some skill set to be able to come across all of that in a really, really authoritative way. So again, you know, it may be he's the right person. Let's see. And Data, you know, we always talk about data just around transfers and things like that. There's so much though within a football club, whether it's academy development, young first team development, the way, the way a player runs, right? I was in a Feyenoord last year and saw they were doing that with their striker, like studying the way a player runs and building data banks on that injury. And also I was just about to say injury prevention, which I know is something that wasn't on the initial priorities, you know, when, when Jordan first came in at United because they were, they were doing catch up on recruitment. But so when we say have they caught up with Liverpool or Arsenal or Man City? The problem also is these clubs don't stop, right? So even if you're trying to catch up and you may be going backwards to move forwards, well, they may still be. They still may be moving forward.
- [33:33]
Karl Anker
It's no longer catching up with Liverpool, Manchester City. It's also now the Premier League middle class is stronger than ever. We are talking in an age of.
- [33:40]
Ayo Akimolere
Even Brighton.
- [33:41]
Karl Anker
Yeah, not even Brighton. Bournemouth. Bournemouth are there. Nottingham Forest just went through that ridiculous area of churn where the training matches look like squid games. But they have now settled on what they want to do.
- [33:55]
Podcast Host
But don't you think their wealth, Man United's wealth over the last 15 years has led to. It's bred a complacency. They didn't need to build all these structures because you could just go and get someone.
- [34:07]
Karl Anker
Be you a sports team, be a university, be you a government. If you believe in institutional exceptionalism, if you believe in it's fine, because we are us, you will be rotted from the inside out. And we have seen this with Manchester United and you want a great. A very, very good example of data and the inconsistencies and whatnot is when Louis Van Gaal came into Manchester United, he was very much fixated on data and making sure Manchester United players were fitter and stronger and whatnot. And at great request, Manchester United installed 3G pictures and the player tracking data. So the sort of things you see on football players and that was installed and all that equipment came in. And then when Jose Mourinho came in, Mourinho for a while has considered player fitness not actually an area of expertise. And Mourinho for a long time believed that he is able to tell just by just naturally intuit whether a player is fit or not. So a lot of that equipment was removed because Manchester United for a very, very long time and still I think to this day in some way want to support the manager and want to be seen to be supporting the manager, rather than creating a system where the manager is a very powerful cog in a much bigger machine. So that secession of Van Gaal, Inter Mourinho meant when Ole Gunnar Solskjaer came in and wanted to make Manchester United a more aggressive team and press higher up the field, he couldn't because he didn't necessarily have the tracking data and the fitness data and the players weren't necessarily fit enough to do it, which just reset things further backwards. We're talking about players like Cristiano Ronaldo and Rafael Varan coming to Manchester United. Let's be very, very clear. There's somewhere Rafael Varane arrived at Manchester United. Look at where the other football teams in the Premier League were buying their center backs from United went out and bought a player towards the end of his career. Yes, incredibly decorate, incredibly talented center back. Whereas a lot of other teams are going, we need to get younger center backs because the Premier League is getting more and more aggressive and we need more and more players who are able to run and run and run and run and run. And now what you've got is a Manchester United squad who routinely loses games because they do not have the requisite physicality to compete with Crystal palace, let alone a team like, say, Liverpool. This is your mess.
- [36:26]
Podcast Host
Foreign.
- [36:30]
Adam Crafton
This is the Athletic FC podcast.
- [36:32]
Podcast Host
With IO Acamonera.
- [36:38]
Ayo Akimolere
Charlotte. Well, Varane pointed out that at Madrid, players had time to develop in a protected environment before taking on major responsibilities. While at United, young players are often expected to perform immediately. I mean, I look at who was on the bench. Tido Obi Martin, the kid they just got from Arsenal, he's only played a, had a handful of youth matches and he's already been called up. I mean, that is out of circumstance to play for the first team. Do you think this is something that has changed from the time of Alex Ferguson? How young players are integrated into the squad?
- [37:10]
Charlotte Harper
I'll let Ollie talk about Sir Alex Ferguson's era. That's, that's not my bad.
- [37:16]
Adam Crafton
But I could talk about Ron Atkinson's era if you like.
- [37:20]
Charlotte Harper
It's, it's the whole framework of having a long term strategy. You have your jigsaw puzzle and you have your borderline and you add a piece or you take one out and you do it incrementally. It's not. Lastminute.com and so these young players is what Varane was saying. Look, look at Patrick Dorgu. He's 20. He has what, one and a half seasons of senior football under his belt? Two and a half. But he's thrust straight into that because of United's lack of long term planning and squad depth. And just as we were talking about younger players to progress upwards, not recruiting older players who are only going to, you know, stay two years, move on because of the physical demands as we've just been talking about. Varane was also saying that, you know, that's part of the environment, creating a calm, stable environment for young players so that they come in and all they have to do is watch and learn. They don't have that responsibility on their shoulders. They're not expected to go out in front of 70,000 Old Trafford when, you know, times are really, really tough. Like coming into that environment and playing well when the team is struggling and you're only 1920. That's what he was talking about when he was saying about how the club can help with that pressure.
- [38:43]
Karl Anker
Isn't that damning that a former Real Madrid player is talking about? How can Real Madrid be a picture of consistency, really? Come on now and looking after young players. This is. This is a football club that routinely, when the players come through, Cassia are very often told you have to go else somewhere else in La Liga and we'll get the buyback clause and you can return. You know, look at players like Carvalho. We're looking at. I mean, I think about Sergio Canales, he was put on the front cover of many multiple magazines, being told he's the child. I mean, look at Martin Odegaard, right? Real Madrid are not the picture of consistency and youthful development that Bayern Munich are that Barcelona. And yet if a Rafa ran to sit there and go, the amount of pressure that you have at Real Madrid is very different compared to Manchester United is incredibly damning. On Manchester United, I look at a football player like Alejandro Garnacho. He's in his third season proper as a professional football player and he has played, quite frankly, too much football. Because the players who are meant to be in those positions right now, who should be alternating with one of them is Jadon Sancho, who now is playing, being paid money by Manchester United to play for Chelsea. And the other one is Antony, who is now on loan at Real Betis. So the pressure on these players, it isn't just, can you cope in this furnace cauldron, whatever a football team, but it's can you bail us out of a numerous, numerous transfer mistakes elsewhere. You look at Mainoo and we can talk about Mainoo's physicality and whatnot and whether or not he might be sold. Mainoo is playing and he's in this team right now because Manchester United spent 55 million plus five on Mason Mount. And Mason Mount, who I think is a phenomenal football player when he is fit, has not been fit and has not been able to fit into a role that, quite frankly, I don't think he should have been purchased for. Manchester United needed a number eight box to box midfielder to play next to Casemiro. And they got Mason Mount, who's much more of a final third player. Why did that deal occur? And it's only because Main who emerged that this sort of mild misfire or dud has been covered up. It's this ridiculous amount of pressure to put on to a bunch of teenagers or people just turning 20.
- [40:50]
Adam Crafton
I find it interesting because I can see that there is an awful lot of pressure on Manchester United players. I mean the media attention we'd spoken about, the social media pressure. I think a lot of the players would argue it's more social media than sort of old fashioned mainstream media. The pressure that they feel. But there doesn't seem pressure to achieve excellence. There seems to be, there seems to be a pressure which is a burden which is sort of day in, day out, week in, week out, sort of depression that hangs over the club and that there's that type of pressure. But I don't, I mean the pressure that exists at Real Madrid, the pressure that exists at Bayern Munich, the pressure that exists, pressure to perform week in, week out, which for example, Guardiola would put on his players at Manchester City, which Klopp would put on a slot, Liverpool, Mikel Arteta, Arsenal, which Ferguson most famously of all would put on on the players at Manchester United. That pressure, the pressure to achieve excellence doesn't seem to exist. You get players given huge contracts for not very much, Carl. I mean, how many, many contracts these players sign on the basis of their first sort of dozen games and then, and then another huge contract.
- [42:03]
Karl Anker
I would say there's pressure to excellence. I would say if you, if you sit at Old Trafford when the score is nil, nil and Manchester United are trying to progress the ball slowly in their third, you can feel it. There is a tangible anxiety attack, attack, attack, attack, attack. Thing is there.
- [42:20]
Adam Crafton
But that crowd, that crowd is exceptionally patient. That crowd has been exceptionally patient over the last 12 years. Almost to a fault. I would say not to a fault because I think, I think that's. The support has been incredible.
- [42:32]
Karl Anker
Of course, I'm not, I'm not saying, I'm not saying the Manchester United crowd are making these players more anxious, but there is an anxiety that exists around Manchester United that, that's more about creating.
- [42:42]
Ayo Akimolere
An environment that allows people.
- [42:45]
Karl Anker
And we've, we've gone back and forth about this all the time. When you hear, when you're hearing the former class of 92 talk about how the Manchester United shirt weighs heavy, the follow up question should be who is making that shirt feel lighter? And this constant search to find one special unicorn football manager out there, the response to that is shouldn't you just try and find like a thoroughbred and then build a proper stable around them so they don't have to be. You can't, you cannot keep comparing football managers to Sir Alex Ferguson because on some level everyone in and around Manchester United acknowledges Sir Alex Ferguson is The greatest football manager of all time and has no compare. And that's the comparison. So why do you keep comparing people to him if he's the greatest of Zenith? Surely you need to create an environment where you don't necessarily need someone who's Ferguson level, because they only happen one every however many decades. Surely you can just create an environment so if you're just quite competent and quite good, you can thrive. And I think this has been a thing that's been going on at Manchester United for years where the quite competent person cannot thrive because the moment you are quite competent at something, you're given extra work. Let's look at David De Gea. Fantastic athletic shot stopper, not great at claiming crosses, not great with his feet. And there were just various seasons at Manchester United where various managers went, ah, the defense, whatever, De Gea will protect you. And Mourinho says he's his greatest achievement is getting Manchester United second. That's not him, that's De Gea doing one of the greatest goalkeeping seasons of all time. And then of course, De Gea got a very big contract and a couple years down the line you're going, oh, wait, why? Why have we given De Gea this contract? There's no pressure to excellence like there is pressure to excellence. He's doing one and a half people's jobs. Look at Bruno Fernandes. You can say, yes, this contract. What is the rule for his contract? It's because he's been running forever.
- [44:26]
Ayo Akimolere
Under those circumstances then, Adam, let's wrap this up. I mean, if you're a young player right now, do you want to come to United? Do you think you might get a game? For sure. But are you going to be a better player?
- [44:37]
Podcast Host
It depends where you are as that young player. Who else is in for you? You know who else is in those positions? Those are all those things you weigh up. I think it's probably too simple to say, you know, I'm a young player and I don't want to go to Man United. I think it's actually quite interesting that Ineos seem to be. I'd actually love to see some data on how the average age of players signed by big six clubs in the Premier League has changed over the last five years or so because it feels like signings are getting younger and younger and younger and expected to come into first team environment younger and younger and younger. And that's kind of fine if you're, I don't know, Lenny Yoro and you signed for Liverpool and you're playing next to Virgil van Dijk to hold your hand. It's a bit different if you're coming into a team that loses, you know, once, once, twice a week and you expect it to be a savior and you know, you have. I think part of the problem with Man United is anything that's like mildly good gets blown into, oh my God, they're back. Or oh my God, this is a turning point. Or, you know, they score a goal in the last minute and straight away. And by the way, the. It's not just social media, mainstream media do this as well. It's Man United score in the last minute, they've scored in Fergie time. It's like, it's like the olden days, right? It's the easiest headline in the world because it's. We've written match reports under time pressure and you just need to put something on the top. And it's Man United have scored a last minute goal at Old Trafford. It's just like it used to be. It's not, it's not. It's like it's a bit of a crap win against a team low down in the table, you know, Southampton or something a few weeks ago. And then if they, if they're a bit mediocre, it's a disaster. Like, I thought the reaction to the defeat at Tottenham at the weekend was absurd, you know, because they lost one nil against, okay, Tottenham of having having a bad season, but they actually had a few players back on the day. Man United had a lot of players out, had no one on the bench on the balance of the game. I thought United had a few chances, Tottenham had a few chances of all the performances this season for the reaction to be as big as it was. Yes, it speaks to the trend and how things aren't improving and this bigger story, this bigger narrative. But anything that's mildly good is built as a huge achievement. Anything that's mediocre is built as a disaster. And I think that's where it affects the players, the manager. Because it's very hard, I think, to cocoon yourself from that any given time. And it's very easy for us to sit here and it's very easy for us to sit here and say they should be able to do that. But I do think that is a real issue at United. You know, I don't know, like Xerxe on Sunday, like, does a few nice turns and you just see him getting like this most like people doing reels of him on, on social media as though it's like he's looking for hope, man. No, I know, I know, but it's as if they're watching cantona in the 90s. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. And that's nothing about. That's not about Xerx. It's just. It just sort of shows the, the extremes that anything related to Man United unfortunately seems to attract. I do think it's important that we do just put some. You know, this has been basically a doom podcast, right?
- [47:54]
Ayo Akimolere
Give us some positivity. Let's wrap on some positivity.
- [47:57]
Podcast Host
You know, Ineos, for as controversial as some of the decisions they've made are, and some of the criticism they've got is entirely fair. You know, I've given. Given them some of it. You know, what I would say is their cash position. Manchester United's cash position would be even more disastrous if not for the money that Ineos have actually put in since they've come into the club, which is, by the way, more than the Glazers have ever done. You know, there is infrastructure work going on at Carrington, investment into the training ground. There is this talk about stadium. So it's, it's not all, you know, it's not all terrible. They do have a manager that, you know, when you listen to him talk in a press conference, seems to talk pretty well. Hopefully the team will get there. I don't know. That's my 10 second dose of hope to caveat. Everything else.
- [48:40]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, let's end it there. Adam, Ollie, Carl and Charlotte, thank you so much for joining us. And I implore you to go read Charlotte's piece right now on the Athletic. We'll be back tomorrow.
- [48:52]
Podcast Host
The Athletic FC podcast network.