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- [00:01]
Debbie
As you've probably heard by now, we've teamed up with BetMGM this season. We'll be using BetMGM lines to make all of our picks and we'll have special offers for our listeners each week. If you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code TheAthletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a fifteen hundred dollar first bet offer on your first wager with BetMGM. Here's how it works. Download the BetMGM app and sign up using bonus code TheAthletic. Make your first deposit of at least ten dollars. Place bet on any game and claim your voucher for a one year subscription to the Athletic. See betmgm.com for terms. U.S. promotional offers not available in D.C. mississippi, New York, Nevada, Ontario or Puerto Rico gambling problem call 1-800- gambler available in the U.S. call 877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY 467-369 in New York, call 1-800- NEXT STEP in Arizona, 1-800-327-5050 Massachusetts 1-800-bets off in Iowa, 1-800-270-7117 for confidential help in Michigan, 1-800-981-0023 in Puerto Rico for FirstBet offer for New customers only in partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino and Hotel. Don't forget if you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code TheAthletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a fifteen hundred dollar first bet offer on your first wager. Your data is like gold to hackers. They'll sell it to the highest bidder. Are you protected? McAfee helps shield you blocking suspicious texts, malicious emails and fraudulent websites. McAfee Secure VPN lets you browse safely and its AI powered tech scam detector spots threats instantly. You'll also get up to $2 million of award winning antivirus and identity theft protection, all for just $39.99 for your first year. Visit McAfee.com, cancel anytime terms apply. This episode is brought to you by State Farm.
- [01:47]
Phil Hay
You might say all kinds of stuff when things go wrong, but these are.
- [01:50]
Debbie
The words you really need to remember. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. They've got options to fit your unique meaning. You can talk to your agent to choose the coverage you need. Have coverage options to protect the things.
- [02:04]
Phil Hay
You value most, file a claim right.
- [02:06]
Debbie
On the State Farm mobile app and even reach a real person when you need to talk to someone like a good neighbor. State Farm is there the Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [02:20]
Adam Leventhal
Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast. I'm Adam Leventhal. Atletico Madrid's Champions League heartbreak continues.
- [02:28]
Thomas Hill
Julian Alvarez straight down the middle.
- [02:32]
Adam Leventhal
He had a little slip. Oh, didn't he? Is he getting a message from the var? They're saying no to something. There is a penalty kick check from the previous one. Did he double tap it? Oh, well, he does, doesn't it?
- [02:42]
Thomas Hill
It comes off both feet.
- [02:43]
Adam Leventhal
Well, if that's the case, no goal. That's no goal. From VAR to penalty shootouts to near misses. Why is it that there's always something stopping Diego Simeone's side from getting over the line in this compet? Well, alongside me is La Liga editor Thomas Hill, Lopez Manchero and Phil Hay. So Atletico Madrid's Champions League heartbreak, it continues with another penalty shootout loss to Real Madrid, just like in the 2016 final. 2014 they lost in the final in extra time. You've got quarter final and semi final defeats to Real in 2015 and 2017 as well. But now they're bemoaning a variety intervention in a shootout which left Diego Simeone like this in his post match press conference. So that was Simeone asking a group of journalists whether they saw anything wrong with Alvarez's penalty in the shootout, which was adjudged to be that double kick via VAR after he slipped. So it was disallowed. Phil, let me start with you. Do you, do you feel his pain?
- [04:08]
Phil Hay
Oh, how, how can you not? I mean, the, the funny thing, if funny's the right words, listening to that audio of Simeone, is that you don't need to speak Spanish to have any idea what's going on. You know, it's, it's patently clear and, and this is a recurring nightmare for him. And he, and he looks and sounds like someone who's having a recurring nightmare. I mean, I genuinely think that if Sergio Ramos doesn't score that 93rd minute header in 2014, if someone blocks him in the box, someone jostles him, marks him properly, gets up in the air first, whatever it is, then Athletic will win that Champions League and probably go on and win three or four more. You know, they break that duck and it all kind of flows from there. But there's this hurdle for them, and whether it's talent, which I don't think would be fair to say, or luck or psychology or whatever, they and Simeone just cannot get over it. And Real Madrid seem to become this huddle every Single time. And in my experience, these ghosts are absolutely real. I saw it at Leeds United, multiple attempts to win the EFL playoffs and never succeeded once. So anytime the playoffs come around, the fear of them is kind of visceral and it definitely does have an effect. If anybody wants a prime example of this, go back and watch the championship semifinal between Derby and Leeds in 2019. I still cannot comprehend the nature of that defeat. And that'll mood at Athletico now, you know, every time. Every single time. And it just won't fall for Simeone in the Champions League. It feels like it's never going to fall for him. And the longer this goes on, the worse it gets.
- [05:40]
Adam Leventhal
And in terms of the actual decision to disallow Alvarez's penalty, I suppose you can feel the anger even more, Thomas, because UEFA have said that that decision was made, yes, by var, but simply by using camera angles rather than anything more advanced. So the people may say, yes, this was sort of performative angst, but it feels like he's got a reason to be angry because not everyone was convinced, were they?
- [06:11]
Thomas Hill
Yeah, I think it's anger. I think it's confusion as well, because a lot of the angles that we saw, at least on social media, even the zoomed up photos of the ball, didn't seem to conclusively show that there were two touches on that. I think reports today were suggesting that Alvarezm himself had told his teammates he didn't think he touched it twice. A lot of the players seem to be a bit unclear. Obviously fans in the stadium were unclear about what happened. So I think it's kind of an anger born of confusion a bit from Simeone as well. And this does feel particularly cruel. I guess we have to point out as well that Llorente still misses his penalty after that. Oblak gets two strong hands to Rudiger, but clearly that intervention by VAR totally conditioned them in the shootout. I think it's probably fair to say the players are in a far better state of mind if Alvarez scores and it's allowed, right?
- [06:59]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah. Well, I mean, you did mention that they did have another opportunity, but Phil, you agree with that, don't you? It just sort of knocked them off kilter.
- [07:06]
Phil Hay
I think it did. I think it definitely did. I mean, I get the sense that if that had happened, that sort of incident or that sort of controversy had happened much earlier in the game, then it could have got pretty volatile and poisonous last night. But the stadium just seemed to be completely stunned and it was almost as if nobody quite knew what was going on couldn't quite believe it. And I get why. Because, I mean, I've watched it and watched it and I'm still not really sure. I suspect there probably wasn't a touch, but it was. It was fractional. I think what surprised me as much as anything else was how quickly that decision came. I mean, you go back recently to that offside decision at Bournemouth. It took eight minutes, and obviously you have different var in the Champions League than you do in the Premier League. And the general feeling is that in the Champions League they do a whole lot better. But it was quite amazing how quickly that decision came, given that it was so critical and so fractional. The only thing I would say is that the rules are the rules, and I see why they exist. If you're allowed two touches, then you'd have all sorts of players trying to pull all sorts of tricks with. With penalties. And I guess bear in mind as well, that unlike in kind of normal time or. Or extra time, where you can score penalties on the rebound and shoot shootouts, the penalty is dead as soon as it either goes in or. Or stays out. So it really is only. Only one hit. But I do think there's a point to be made about the fact that it was so fractional, because the ironic thing is that when he scored, my immediate reaction was, bloody El. He's got lucky there. Because this. The slip was really close to taking the penalty over the crossbar. Instead, it kind of produced this perfect finish that was basically unsavable. So it does feel like a technicality and it does feel unfortunate. But all in all, it probably did slightly change the nature of the finish, assuming that he did actually get two touches on it. So it's probably the right call. Even if I think that, you know, the better solution to this would be to, say, retake it rather than disallow it completely.
- [08:54]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, I think that's. I think that's true. Especially when it's so, so marginal and it's trying to analyze it with the eye rather than any sort of more snicko ball technology, which does exist in tournaments and we've seen it used. Thomas. I suppose that, you know, you look at the end of the game, the bitter end for Atleti, it's a complete antithesis to the start of the game, which was fantastic. You know, they came out and they went at Real Madrid and they scored within 30 seconds on the front foot early with Alvarez out wide and in towards the near post of po to really early on. And it's Conor Gallagher, his first European.
- [09:32]
Thomas Hill
Goal is a priceless. Yeah, it was. It was an absolutely amazing start. I mean, I think it was the fastest goal by. By an Englishman in. In the Champions League by Conor Gallagher. The first goal by an Englishman in. In the Madrid derby, which surprised me because I instinctively thought that Jude Bellingham would have scored, but it's true. He hasn't scored against Atletico yet. I think that was everything that's right about this Atletico side at the moment. They've got some really talented players in there. They still combine the best of that with. With the best of Simeone's kind of never say die aggressive tenacious mentality. If you were to have one criticism of them, it was maybe that they didn't push on after that. I think there were moments when they could have hurt Real a lot more than they did. And who knows, maybe that becomes a different game. Otherwise, as it happens, after that goal, they kind of retreat a bit, and it does feel a little bit as if penalty, extra time and eventually penalties.
- [10:25]
Adam Leventhal
Are kind of inevitable in terms of Conor Gallagher. Phil, it's interesting because a lot of people, you know, we cover it deeply on. On the athletic and a lot of people are interested in it, but a lot of people won't necessarily have been checking in every week if they're a Premier League fan on how Conor Gallagher has been doing. So it was nice to see him have that big moment, wasn't it? And we'll see whether he continues to have big moments for Atletico this season and then potentially for England as well, with a new era with Thomas Tuchel coming in.
- [10:58]
Phil Hay
My reading of it from a distance is that he's developed into a really good signing for Atletico and, you know, as a club, they've been excellent domestic domestically and also excellent in Europe, irrespective of that result last night. The funny thing with Gallagher, if I remember back to the summer, is how difficult it was to get him through the door, that really long period where, to be frank, it wasn't quite sure if Athletico really wanted him or were kind of inclined to sign somebody else instead. He was kind of stuck in that limbo period where he knew he was going from Chelsea and the financials seemed to be agreed or broadly agreed. Chelsea wanted him gone, didn't want to keep him, wanted the cash for PSR reasons. But he was kind of stuck on the Runway over to Madrid, back from Madrid, that point where he was pictured on the. On the pitch itself. But then the deal didn't quite go through as. As it was expected to. But I think A lot about him suits Simeone's football and suits Athletico's ethos, the way. The way they try to play, the way they intend to play and the way they have been playing this season. And you're right, it's a. It's a big moment for him, but that 27 second goal is going to get largely forgotten very quickly, and it's probably been forgotten already.
- [12:07]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, yeah, it is a fair point, Thomas. We'll dig into the curse a little bit more a little bit later on, but was this just basically another tight game between two great rivals? We've had two one ones in the league. I mean, this is aside from the, you know, the Champions League history. Real second, Atletico third, separated by a point. It was just. Just fine margins and nothing more than that.
- [12:33]
Thomas Hill
Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I know the title in our running order was kind of. What is it that separates Atletico and Real Madrid in these European competitions? Well, this time, penalties. Right? That's all it was, really. And it's those fine margins that Real have really dominated over the past couple of seasons. You could argue in the first leg, if Mbappe squares to Vinicius at the very end, maybe it's a different game again. So it's all these fine margins that. That, you know, Ancelotti's side are really experts at. I think the mentality probably does come into it. I know our colleague Guillermo Rai wrote a really nice piece this morning about Bellingham and how his kind of leadership epitomized Madrid's performance over. Over this tie. I think that's. That's what it comes down to. It's a lot of, you know, proven winners, players who have been to the final stages of the Champions League know what it's like. I mean, just look at Rudiger, who takes the winning penalty. He's already done that at City last season, and he's a center back. Right. So it's that kind of winning mentality. But having said that, Atletico were so close and they were so brilliant over these two legs that it does feel really, really harsh on them.
- [13:39]
Adam Leventhal
And, Phil, it's all well and good. Simeone, you know, pointing his finger at Var and all that. And you mentioned about Conor Gallagher's goal being forgotten. Vinicius Jr, if he'd actually done what we would expect him to do from the spot, rather than sort of emulating Chris Waddle back in the 1990 World cup, it wouldn't have got that far, would it?
- [13:59]
Phil Hay
Yeah, we need to send Thomas to get that one out of the sea. I think you're right. It was a terrible penalty. I mean, shockingly bad for that stage of a mega tie. And Real didn't really boss it last night. I didn't feel, I thought they were better in the first leg than the second. And this is the interesting thing about them. Again, Thomas will have a much closer view of this than I do, but I'm not sure that much about Real this season in La Liga or the Champions League will have other Champions League contenders rattled. I mean, they've got this history of 15 titles, so they've got the aura and the talent pool there is, is absolutely stacked. It's why they can win every game. And as Thomas mentioned, they are kind of like knockout specialists in what you'd call match playing golf, where it's one on one. They seem to be so good at just getting it done every time or regularly. But I think Barcelona, psg, Bayern, Inter would, would all fancy it. Maybe Arsenal in the quarter finals. But I think Arsenal's shortage up front probably leaves them too exposed. But I don't think last night in any way means it's real nailed on for the title.
- [15:06]
Adam Leventhal
Okay, well, look next what we'll do whilst Real Madrid look forward to facing Arsenal, we'll dig a little bit deeper into the origins of Athletic's misfortunes in Europe. This is the Athletic FC podcast with Adam Leventhal.
- [15:22]
Debbie
Hi, this is Debbie, your blinds.com design consultant. Oh, wow, a real person.
- [15:27]
Adam Leventhal
Yep.
- [15:27]
Debbie
I am here to help you with everything from selecting the perfect window treatments to. Well, I've got a complicated project. Oh, not a problem. I can even schedule a professional measure and install. We can also send you samples fast and free. Hmm, I just might have to do more. Oh, okay. So the first room we're looking at is for guests. Shop blinds.com now and save up to 45% sitewide. Blinds.com rules and restrictions apply. I play wordle and spelling bee every single day. That's the first thing I do play wordle while making coffee.
- [15:57]
Thomas Hill
I pour myself a cup and do.
- [15:59]
Debbie
The crossword, which is the jewel of my morning. What's our starting word today? I think it should be ocean. I have seen you do spelling bee during meetings. The New York Times crossword is a moment of Zen that cleanses my brain. I wish the days were shorter and that the wordles were longer.
- [16:14]
Thomas Hill
Join us and play all New York.
- [16:15]
Debbie
Times games@nytimes.com games subscribe by March 16 to get a special offer.
- [16:27]
Adam Leventhal
So earlier on we heard Diego Simeone and his rage, his confusion, his bewilderment at the decision over Julian Alvarez's penalty and that double kick. Well, Thibaut Courtois, speaking to our reporter Guillermo Rai, responded by saying Simeone's words that it was unfair to disallow Alvarez's penalty. I think UEFA sees it clearly. I'm tired of this victimhood, of always crying about things like this. This is what Courtois said. What was your thoughts on that, Thomas? I mean, this is usual needle between these two. And usual sort of combative words from Courtois as well. He likes to wind people up, doesn't he? Yeah.
- [17:10]
Thomas Hill
I'm sure that will make Courtois an even more popular man in that side of Madrid. Right. I think he obviously epitomises a bit one of those players who's crossed the divide, who now is public enemy number one at Atletico. I don't know if it's victimhood that feels pretty harsh choice of words from Courtois, but I think Atletico do have this history of famously being known as the kind of the pupas, the jinxed one, which Dermot wrote about in his piece this morning. I actually think it's more of a mentality of even we lose, we are going to support our team, we are going to fight to the end kind of thing, which is what Simeone has really instilled in his time there. I mean, if you look at his trophy hall while he's been at Atletico, two La Liga titles, a Copa del Rey, one against Madrid, two Europa Leagues. It's really just the Champions League where they seem to have this, you know, what I'm reluctant to call a curse, but which I guess is becoming a bit of a curse against Real Madrid those four seasons in a row where they were knocked out twice in the final by Madrid. Again, I think it just comes down to those fine margins. But we can't forget the work Simeone did in even making Atletico a worthy competitor to Madrid in the first place. I think between 1999 and the 2013 Copa del Rey final, Atletico hadn't won against their city rivals in 27 games, I think it was. So there's that kind of context to bring into it, too, even to be on this stage with Madrid as much as they are. Atletico are a different side now to the one that Simeone inherited in 2011. It's an achievement in itself.
- [18:40]
Adam Leventhal
You mentioned the curse, El Pu Pass, which means the jinxed ones or the unlucky ones. Is that right, Thomas?
- [18:47]
Thomas Hill
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
- [18:48]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, that's bang on. Okay, so it goes back to the European heartache that they suffered in 1974, the European cup final defeat against Bayern Munich. Atletico were leading 1 nil in extra time right up until the last minute. Then Bayern scored it, then went to a replay, and then they lost. Phil, from your point of view, you sort of alluded to it earlier on. Do you feel that that psychological barrier, that sort of intangible thing is at play here, or is it just the way it goes?
- [19:21]
Phil Hay
Great question. Just quickly on Courtois. That comment is really funny given that Real have spent the last month unloading heavily on referees in Spain. I sort of think if Courtois ever finds himself at the Bernabeu again, which he will, he probably doesn't have to go too far down the corridor to learn a bit more about victimhood. I mean, that has been Real's grape for weeks and weeks now, if not longer, on the curse. I actually knew nothing about this, I must admit, Until I read McCorrigan's piece this morning, and I was totally fascinated by it. So I did a bit of digging. So I went back to 1974 to have a look at that game between Bayern Munich and Athletico. And the goal was from a player called Hans Jog Schwarzenbeck, who, again, not. Not massively familiar with his back catalog, but played for years at Bayern Munich, almost 20, and was a center back, tended to average a goal every 20 games, but somehow, in the last minute of extra time, pulled off this 30 yard equalizer from nowhere with what must have been virtually the last kick. And then Athletico get completely battered in the replay. And as you start to stretch the timeline out in what was the European cup in the Champions League, and you go through what's happened predominantly against Real Madrid, but also back to that, you can certainly see where the paranoia comes from. I mean, it's totally understandable and to a degree, it must be in Athletico's head. I thought you could see it in the stands last night. There were tears everywhere. People kind of distraught beyond belief. And it tells you that they've had so much of this, and at this stage, probably almost too much.
- [20:59]
Adam Leventhal
And Thomas, how much does it come up? How much did they actually vocalise the curse themselves? Because obviously this is a different Simeone side, as you've said, there's, you know, very competitive in La Liga. They've. They've won the title, they've had success. He's converted, transformed the team. Did they talk about it as a thing?
- [21:22]
Thomas Hill
I think these days, the. The players, the team, the manager less so even if you know, Simeone's mentality is very unique and often he thrives in those backs to the wall situations, I think Atletico have just changed the club so much over the time he's been in charge. They've got this fancy new Metropolitano stadium, they've got big signings, they spent almost 200 million euros last summer. So maybe that's where the discrepancy comes a bit, the contradiction a bit in that history as potentially being cursed. And the squad they have, I mean, they have brilliant players at their disposition now. And you wonder if just in a few of those ties, they could have got over the line with slightly different tactics. I'm not sure. I think Simeone's brought them so far that you have to respect him for the job he's done, but I think that's what will particularly hurt about this time, was that they have been so equal to Madrid in La Liga this season. They've got some players who can really rival those great galacticos, and they still weren't able to do it in the cruelest of circumstances.
- [22:25]
Adam Leventhal
Phil, could you imagine what it would be like if and when they break the curse and if Simeone is still there, what the sort of atmosphere would be like?
- [22:36]
Phil Hay
I think you'd have seen it last night. I think that's what you would have got. It's the result they've been waiting for. And the problem with trying to crack this curse against Madrid, specifically against Real specifically, is that it relies on a certain degree of chance and the cards falling into place, doesn't it? Particularly now that you've got this Swiss model with the Champions League. It's so vast and there's so many clubs in it, there's nothing to say that they're going to meet. I think it was four seasons back to back, did they? Not where they. They met in the knockouts in the Champions League. They could quite easily go a decade without playing each other again. And the balance of the competition itself means that. I mean, look at the quarter final draw now, to win the whole thing, you don't just have to beat Real, you've got to get through. Inter Milan as an example, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, you know, whoever the strongest English club happens to be at any one time. So it's asking a hell of a lot to win one Champions League. And the chance might not come again for Simeone in the way that it's fallen for him previously. And I think that will be the source of the most regret, particularly 2014. I know they lost in the second final to Real on penalties, but 2014 was the one where it was close enough to touch. You were talking a matter of seconds. As I said earlier, you were talking one better piece of defending from one corner and it would have been this. And I kind of doubt they'll get that close again.
- [23:58]
Adam Leventhal
Well, let's not leave this on an entire downer for Atletico Madrid. They are still to parrot Kevin Keegan. They're still fighting for this title in terms of the La Liga title, and we will analyze what's still left for them to achieve this season. Next.
- [24:20]
Debbie
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- [26:21]
Adam Leventhal
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Adam Leventar. So at the end of the game against Real Madrid, we saw those white shirts dashing off in celebration, celebrating as you normally do after a penalty shootout victory. But also we saw Diego Simeone Thomas rallying the home support on the pitch after the game, and that's because they still need to fight, because they're really in the mix for the title. Do you feel that they can find the energy after that sort of disappointing, demoralizing defeat against Real to sort of go again domestically?
- [27:04]
Thomas Hill
Yeah, it's so tricky. I mean, you wouldn't bet against them given what Simeone's done and the side he's created. But this has been like, this has been a brutal run for them. They face Valencia, Barca. They're facing three times across La Liga and the Copa del Rey Athletic Club Real twice, obviously in the Champions League Getafe at the weekend, which they lost. There's already been lots of controversy in that run. Angel Correa is now banned for five games after saying an expletive to the referee at the weekend.
- [27:30]
Phil Hay
So he sounds like a charmer, but.
- [27:35]
Thomas Hill
I think it's a huge game at the weekend against Barca first v third in La Liga. Barca have a game in hand as well. You kind of wonder if this is where Barca start to build up a really healthy lead. It's for all in the Copa del Rey semi final against them, so maybe they've got more of a chance there. But this really felt like it was going to be a stretch of games that was going to define Atletico's season for good or bad. And I guess we'll see. It's hard to see how they pick themselves up after that defeat last night, though.
- [28:06]
Adam Leventhal
In a way, I suppose having a mega game coming up is probably best for them, isn't it? Philosophical?
- [28:11]
Phil Hay
Well, possibly. But Thomas is right. It's been piled on at the moment in a big way and you know, from neutral perspective it was fantastic drama last night. I almost feel like between the Madrid derby and PSG Liverpool, the Champions leagues got properly real. I thought that you know, Round eight of the league stage was really quite compelling in the end, and I guess exactly what UEFA were wanting people like us to say. But this is the point where it feels like you're at the sharp end and where it's. It's all kind of on. On the line. They're going to have to win those big games, they're going to have to keep themselves in touch. I know in theory it's a good motivating factor to have fixtures like that coming up, but it feels a little bit like they could do without it at the moment. A little bit of an easier run wouldn't do them any harm. But as the saying goes, it is what it is.
- [29:00]
Adam Leventhal
Thomas, how much is it discussed what Atletico would be like without Simeone and whether they would ever be able to reach those heights without him, or if they. If it's possible to advance beyond what he's achieving with someone else in charge.
- [29:15]
Thomas Hill
It's really tricky because I think you are. I don't think it's hyperbole to suggest you're talking about a kind of Sir Alex Ferguson figure at Atletico in terms of where he brought them out from. I don't think any fans really contemplate the possibility of him not being there. I know that we've previously done a pod on him, and I think it's fair to say you can't imagine him anywhere else, really. There's not many top European sides where you can imag imagine him slotting in. I suppose maybe Inter Milan, given his history there. But even then, I just don't think it would be the same kind of mentality he'd be able to instill there as the one he's brought to Atletico. So, no, I'm not sure fans really are contemplating a future without him. I think at some point the moment will come where, with all these big signings, the questions will be asked about whether another manager could get more out of them. I mean, there are just some brilliant players there who you might argue are not being fully taken advantage of because they're playing in Simeone's system. And this thing happens every season of him trying to kind of tweak his system a bit, to make it more attacking. And inevitably he kind of ends up going back to. Going back to those defensive basics, going back to the good old ways which have brought them so much success. So for now, I think Simeone's so firmly established there that it's impossible to see him leaving, really. But the time will have to come and we'll see what kind of direction Atletico take. I'm sure fans will be devastated when that arrives. Maybe another manager can take them further.
- [30:43]
Phil Hay
I don't think they get better than Simeone. I have to be honest. The quality, quality side, I'm not sure that is best ever. I think 2013, 14, probably just pips this group. I remember we did an interview on the Athletic, I think it was with Alda Turan, and he said that was a team with balls. And he also said, and you can argue the toss over this one, but Athletico being champions in 2014 was, as he put it, the hardest title in sports history because Real had Ronaldo, then Barcelona had Messi. It was quite an achievement. And I'm with Thomas on this. I wrote a piece way back about coaches who go to countries where they don't speak the language, and it was framed around Bielsa Leeds, who didn't really speak much English. And as part of that, someone told me, or said to me that their understanding was that Simeone would never go to England because he doesn't have strong English. So if that's right, and if he's never destined for the Premier League, he's not going to manage another major club in Spain. That's pretty obvious. And it starts to really chip down at the options that would be out there. Big clubs in Italy would seem to be it, but for now, I don't see how Athletico improve on this.
- [31:53]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, and we don't want him to go anywhere because, I mean, yeah, he can't speak English, but even if he was in the Premier League, we would understand a lot of his sign language, wouldn't we, Phil?
- [32:05]
Phil Hay
Yeah, I think so. And as I say, going back to that audio at the beginning, I think I know word for word what was going on there, even though I don't speak any Spanish myself. He's just a. I know he's not everybody's cup of tea, but I like him a lot. I like his teams a lot. In their own way, they're very easy to admire and to appreciate, and it just seems to be the perfect fit. Him and Athletico, the fact that they can get over the line in the Champions League is almost incidental because they do have. They do have a good run of trophies behind them. They have been highly successful. This has been one of the best eaters that at any stage, they just seem to get unlucky if it is down to luck time and again, in this particular competition, I thought.
- [32:46]
Thomas Hill
Adam. There was also a really nice comment from Simeone afterwards, and I think what Phil says there about his sort of football philosophy and the way he sees football as well, I think is really interesting. And you know, there was some, admittedly after the penalty complaints, some kind of Zen qualities coming through from him. He said, have we been able to win the Champions League against Real Madrid? Of course we weren't able to, but they had a bad time every time. I'm sure they're going to remember some of us for some time, which is probably fair.
- [33:14]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, he is certainly unforgettable, but him and Zen I've never put together ever. It's the most unlikely, a specific kind of Zen. Yeah. Fantastic. Well, look, Thomas, thank you very much indeed. Phil, thanks to you as well. Thanks very much for listening. We'll be back tomorrow with the preview. Looking ahead to Sunday's Carabao Cup Final at Wembley between Liverpool and Newcastle United. You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroo and Jay Beale. The executive producer was Ailey Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC podcast is an athletic media company production.
- [34:03]
Debbie
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.