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- [00:02]
A
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. After losing 40 at the Etihad, Liverpool's season is at risk of unraveling. With so much uncertainty surrounding the club's hierarchy are FSG allowing Liverpool to drift? All right, in with us for this one. We've got Simon Hughes. And as ever, with matters around club structures and hierarchy, we've got Matt Slater as well. It's O'Reilly.
- [00:32]
B
It's Harland. It's a hat.
- [00:35]
A
All right, we'll have to start with what happened on Saturday. That defeat at the Etihad. Arne Slot said Liverpool lacked fighting spirit after Manchester City incisively cut through Liverpool s a day to forget, but also I guess a season that's slowly becoming a season to forget as well for Liverpool.
- [00:55]
C
Yeah, well, it was something that the players could agree with in terms of Slot's comments as well because Virgil van Dijk came out afterwards and said the same thing. Dominik Szabash said the same thing. And that's a real concern. You know, I always equate this sort of language to the head coach or the manager isn't inspiring us in the way that we hope for. It was a very strange game because I thought until Manchester City scored the first goal, Liverpool were working towards a plan which said to me, you know, that Slots is still thinking about things, he's coming up with ideas and to some degree it works. But as soon as Manchester City scored, Liverpool capitulated. And it was a surrender of the worst kind, I would say. I mean, from here you just mentioned that this season as a whole, I mean, Liverpool are struggling to reach the Champions League. They currently occupy a space that will get them in, but they've got away games coming up at Everton, Manchester United, Aston Villa and they're actually just seven points above 13th so you know, there's a lot to play for before the end of the season. But you know, just as, you know, some people are saying, well, Liverpool still in the Champions League, you know, I think there's this, this idea that while Liverpool have won the Champions League in the past when not having the best team but there were certain conditions and a certain belief around the club when that happened in 20 in 2005, I just don't see that presence at the moment. And you know, it could get worse before it get.
- [02:23]
A
Yeah, Matt, you know, when the team's not doing that well, you're looking at your big players and I mean mo salah to step up and hopefully Try and grab something for you to drive the team and gather some momentum. Missing a penalty, missing a big chance as well in that FA cup, there were hopes of a fairy tale end to the season. But was this just a reminder, Matt, of why his departure probably suits everyone?
- [02:47]
B
Absolutely. I've seen a lot of the commentary around this season, but also kind of the contract he got last season, I don't know. I saw some quotes, I think from Steven Gerrard. I think it was overnight or I read them this morning and he talks about it being sad. I've seen other people sort of put it in even stronger terms, like painful to watch. I mean, I think it's painful to watch, but I think it is a bit sad. He's a, he's a wonderful player, fantastic player. And I, you know, my, my, my very tepid take on Mo Salah is that he's perhaps been underrated for a long period, certainly in terms of like, body of work. Very consistent, good sort of six, seven year block where he really was one of the best players in the world. And very rarely, I thought featured in that kind of conversation. I don't care, but my kids seem to care. I think the players care about this conversation around the Ballon d'. Or. I think it's all a bit American for me. But anyway, and he's never really been in that conversation, I think you could see why on any given year, there's always been two or three better than him, four or five better than him, but like really consistent over six, seven years. I know you don't hand them out for kind of lifetime achievement. That really is too American. But he's been that sort of guy. And I think when I watched him this season nearly on tv, to be honest, the drop off has been dramatic. It's been remarkable. So as good and as underrated as I think he was previously, I think we're almost underestimating how badly he's played this season. I've really thought he's been awful. I mean, he's been really poor. Like some, some games I've seen, I've just thought you're one of the worst players on the pitch. You know, you, if it wasn't Mo Salah, you'd have been off 15, 20 minutes ago and you probably wouldn't be playing, you probably wouldn't be playing next week. And I think that is a bit sad and that, you know, we have seen these age related drop offs before. This is one of the most remarkable, I think, because he was so consistent before. I think Son, maybe son at Spurs. There's been a few others. Right. But I really think he's been dreadful this year. And I'm not saying that's a pile on the guy. It's not a lack of respect. I really respect him. I think he's an amazing player. I just think he's been dreadful this year. Really dreadful.
- [05:04]
A
Yeah. I mean, look, Simon, let's face it. Mo Salah's done a lot of great things for Liverpool. I mean, has done a lot of great things for the Premier League. I mean, whole heap of, you know, records that he's broken. He's a phenomenal player and has been fantastic in the Premier League. But I also want to turn it around a little bit as well because Mo Salah isn't the only problem at Liverpool right now. You know, we spoke about Virgil Van Dijk talking about how the teams let down Arna Slot. And in the Walk on podcast you spoke about maybe three or four players on this squad that you'd keep. The rest don't look like Liverpool players. Should some of these players also be standing up and looking at how they've performed this season?
- [05:40]
C
I actually think he's the least of Liverpool's problems at the moment. I mean, right across the team there's question marks. As far as I'm concerned, not a single player came out of that game against City with any credit in terms of the way they responded. As I said earlier, it was. It was a defeat of the worst kind. Conceding five minutes before half time, conceding right on half time, conceding just after half time and then conceding again. You know, when there's something wrong with the team, they concede goals around half time. And Liverpool did it either side. I think as well at the moment. There's a wider issue with the team as well. You know, there's a. Obviously that they are struggling and when the team is struggling, things aren't always going to be great, you know, with the fan base. But there seems like a huge disconnect at the moment in terms of where the players think they are at. And I think that some of them give a whiff of fighting, you know, and running and doing the hard yards is a bit below them, if I'm being honest. You know, we've seen Dominic Zobuslai after the game sort of waving his hands at the few fans that remained in the away end. And that's not the first time he's done that. I don't really understand what points he's trying to achieve. He's had a good season by a very low standard of Liverpool players. But you know, there's little, little pointers to set that says to me that there's something culturally not quite right within that, that squad at the moment. You know, Liverpool lose to Brighton inside 24 hours. Szoboszlai, for example, is going on Instagram showing off some watch that he's got. And I'm like, really? Do you realize how people sort of see this? You know, it doesn't seem like there's much education going on around the club in terms of what is expected of a Liverpool player. And then, you know, you go back to the Manchester City game. Hugo Ekatike again, done okay this season for Liverpool, swapping his shirt off, he just lost 4 nil. I'm just like, oh God. You know, these are the sort of things that really turn people against you.
- [07:41]
A
Who's it down to though? Who, whose job is it to make sure these lads come in, sign for Liverpool, they big money and understand what this club represents.
- [07:49]
C
I think that there is a lack of institutional memory at Liverpool really. I mean, you might say Michael Edwards has been connected to the club for quite a long time now, but that hasn't really been his role. It wasn't previously he was the sport and director. You know, he's got no connection, no emotional connection with Liverpool. He doesn't live in the city, so he doesn't really understand. He has an understanding, I guess, of, of what things should look like. But there's nobody at the club really there to say, you know, what, you might want to do this at this moment or even from the head coach's perspective. You know, there's. I get the feeling that he doesn't have much support around him in that sense. In terms of what he should be saying, you know, it shouldn't just all be on the press officer. There are certain things that I think the club could do better on that front, you know, in terms of involving, you know, people who are, who have a better understanding of, of how people react at Liverpool. So the results are bad obviously. Yes, that the results are bad, but it's, it's what's around those results as well. You know, that this season, I mean, I've mentioned the two players there who've actually probably been two of Liverpool's better players this season on the pitch. But they're actually, you know, they've done things which make me quite concerned. You know, I think back to the, the Barnsley game in the FA cup and obviously scores from 30 yards and then he, he's back healing the ball in his own box like that. Says to me he thinks that he's great. Like sort of normal conventions in a football match don't apply to him, you know and nobody, nobody dug him out on the pitch after that. After that, you know, you got a Katiek getting sent off in another cup match in the league for lifting off his share. Just sort of absentmindedness. It's like why he did that, I don't know. You've got the watching season, you've got waving at the crowds. I just think all these things are avoidable if there's somebody there maybe to just have a quiet word in the ear. And it feels like Liverpool are just coasting along at the moment making lots of mistakes around the bad defeats as well, which is amplifying the noise around, you know, the criticism that the players are receiving, that the managers are receiving. And you know, for a long time I think that the, the head coach on the slots has had a lot of criticism but it feels like things are turning on the players as well at the moment. So yeah it's. They're in a bit of a hole.
- [10:06]
D
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akimolere.
- [10:14]
A
Well, we've touched on it a little but let's get into some of the instability surrounding Liverpool off the pitch because back in 2024 Liverpool owners Fenway Sports Group announced its intention to create a multi club ownership group. But those plans actually haven't seen the light of day yet. Matt, what prompted FSG to embark on plans to acquire yet another club?
- [10:36]
B
Well, I mean that's a good question. They never really explained it, which I think is one of the problems I'm going to get into a bit more. I think they did it or they sort of said they were going to do it. There's a little bit of fear of missing out. I think there was a little bit of. It was, you know, we've done whole podcasts on it, whole podcast series. I think we did on it that certainly till about a year ago mco, by which I mean multi club ownership was the dominant idea in the market. Right. Everyone was talking about it. Now whether they were doing it or not, they were all thinking about it and this. And the thesis was as I've explained before, you sort of kind of widen your net, you get yourself in all the key markets really helps with recruitment. That's probably the best idea. The other people would then say well we can also kind of pool resources and save Some costs, yeah, definitely an element of that. Kind of similar playing styles, pathways, you know, that kind of very much linked to recruitment. But also maybe we could have a bigger shop window. So there might be some commercial opportunities we could do, you know, group wide sponsorship deals. So there's been various ideas, benefits suggested to having more than one club and a lot of American investors in sport have really liked it. And I've always felt that it's a little bit based on their knowledge of the farm system in baseball where you have very sort of clearly delineated pyramids. Not even a pyramid, but kind of a progression, a ladder and you're all serving the team above you. I don't know, it might be like kind of at school where it was all about like the first 15 or the first 11, right? Everyone is kind of building towards that. So that's the thesis. I think a few things have happened. One, everyone has realized, well, running one club is really, really hard and complicated and expensive. No one's making any money at the moment, so running several is even harder and more expensive. I think the other thing is even at its height, like peak mco, it was an idea, it was a thesis. Some people were like, oh no, that's rubbish, not going to work. I think the more reasonable people were like, okay, well that's, that's quite an interesting idea. I can kind of see what you're trying to do there. People would talk about it's a very sort of economics idea, like leakage. You know, you're, you're cutting down on your leakage, like losing players, the whole kind of cycle of contracts, losing ideas, losing, know how when a great coach or a strength and conditioning person leaves or whatever, right? A key, a key employee leaves. If you can somehow keep them in the system, that's better. Keep ideas, good ideas in the system. That's good. So people like the idea. And it was very much, well, let's have a look. Could we do some sort of experiment, you know, can we sort of run this for a bit? And you know, life's not like that. So you sort of let people do it first, right? You let the City football group do it, you let Red Bull do it, you let Triple 7 do it, you let Eagle football do it. You let these various groups at different levels in the pecking order do it. And you say, well, okay, are they doing better at player trading? Are they doing better at the pathways to the first 15? Are they doing better commercial deals? All those things that the MCOs zealots, the MCO you know, cheerleaders were saying, are they true? And I think one by one, if they haven't been disproved, like completely rejected, there are huge question marks over every single claim associated with the MCO model. So add all that up. I think fsg, who take a pretty rational, objective, data led view of things have gone, no, the case for MCO is not there, let's not do it.
- [14:15]
A
Yeah, I wonder if what's happened obviously with the likes of Nightingale Forest and also Crystal palace also has something to do with it. Because I often think about these MCOs, Matt, and I'm thinking, how do you legitimately buy all these clubs and not want them all to be competitive as well? And we've obviously seen UEFA step, of course, which means that certain clubs can't compete in the same competition at the same time.
- [14:38]
B
Well, these are again, so I've listed all the pros, right, as ever, with anyone where you have a new idea and people are saying, this is great, let's try this. We very rarely do the negatives, the cons and that's, that's been another huge story over the last two, three, four years. Now we've got to the point now where the fudge, the accepted fudge at UEFA is you put them into a blind trust. Now Liverpool, I think guys like Edwards and we're going to talk more about here, Michael Edwards. If FSG were going to do this, they were going to do this, right? They really wanted, they were going to buy into the idea, right? We're going to run a farm system with Liverpool at the top of the apex, everyone else feeding in. So the idea that they might have to step away from one of their farm teams, well, what's the point? Why are we doing this? We want to run this like we run the LA Dodgers, like we run, you know, the Boston Red Sox. So yeah, UEFA and UEFA's attempt to having kind of let MCO just proliferate. They have in more recent years realized they have some integrity issues as these. You know, we've got 300 plus clubs in MCA groups now. You know, half the Premier League, you know, have farm teams somewhere. And we are now seeing, because so many Premier League teams make Europe, but, you know, we've got a third European competition, so whatever it is, 108 teams playing Europe now every, every summer there is two or three of these stories, right? Definitely. And like, you know, obviously palace and, and, and Leon were the big one last summer, but they've been, there have been loads. It was Villa's team, PSG's team, Man United and Nice and they'll be. There'll be more this summer. It could be Everton and Roma. It's a problem. It's a headache. And I just think FSG for the reasons I mentioned in my first answer, that the positive cases for MCO remain unproven. The negatives are there. Very obviously it's a headache every summer for a handful of teams. You've got to do some kind of jiggery pokery and step away and blah blah, blah. Point someone over there to run it for you while you pretend not to look at them. It's all nonsense. So that's a negative. And I think the other thing about FSG is they are sitting on a huge unrealized profit at Liverpool. The Liverpool investment has been fantastic for them and I just don't think they want anything else to interfere with that. Anything to distract them from it. They are private equity guys. At some point they're going to sell some more of Liverpool or all of Liverpool. They're in the process of selling the Pittsburgh Penguins. Their NHL team almost doubled their money on that, on that investment. They just don't want the aggro. They've changed their minds.
- [17:19]
A
Yeah, I need to bring you in on this then. So, because we need to talk about Michael Edwards originally stepped down as Liverpool sporting director in 2022, now returning to work with the club as FSG CEO of football two years later. Now you've written about him and so is James Pierce as well. You know, overseeing the MCO expansion was a big part of what convinced Edwards to return to the fold. Do we know how he now feels that a lot of those plans are being shelved?
- [17:49]
C
Well, let's just go back to what he said when he returns to the FSG group in March 2024. And this was what he said on record. He doesn't, he doesn't speak very much, you know, if at all, you know, only when he, only when he left Liverpool, he actually, he spoke for the first time about his role and how sort of grateful he was for the experience that he had at the club over a decade, he said at that time. So one of the biggest factors in my decision is the commitment to acquire and oversee an additional club growing this area of our organization. I believe that to remain competitive investments and expansion of the current football portfolio is necessary. And then Mike Gordon, the FSG president, supported that in an email that he sent around employees of the club. So very clearly this was what sort of brought him back really. He had previously been the sporting director at Liverpool. Over a long period of time coinciding with the Jurgen Klopp era of management, Liverpool has had a lot of success. He and Klopp had busted heads a little bit. Not on a sort of overtly confrontational way but it contributed towards Edwards stepping back in 2022. He wanted to come back in a more overarching role. Meanwhile Mike Gordon, the president of FSG wanted to step back from his role. So Edwards was essentially coming back to oversee the operation at Liverpool, albeit with a new sporting director, Richard Hughes, and then expand upon the FSG football portfolio. At the moment that just stands as it did in 2024 with just Liverpool. So you know, his role sort of, I don't want to say redundant but he certainly doesn't have more responsibilities now than he did two years ago. James Pierce, my colleague reports on this a couple of weeks ago. Edwards is frustrated with the lack of progress. They've presented on numerous occasions, looked into 25 clubs across Europe and it hasn't led anywhere. So yeah, the big pull in terms of getting him back hasn't materialized. And this is, this is a problem for Liverpool really because it depends which way you look at it of course because some people might, might view Edwards body of work since return and as Micks, you know, yes he appointed Richard Hughes who appointed Arne Schloss the head coach who obviously delivered the title but they since had you know, the documented issues with the team. You know, high summer of spends unprecedented amount of spend on the team and Edwards contract with FSG runs until the summer of 2027 which is the same time as Richard Hughes, which is the same time as Arnold slot. So there is a potential problem here because if Liverpool do, if Richard Hughes or Michael Edwards do decide that they need to dispense with Arnold Slot which doesn't sound like the planning to at the moment. They want to give him the chance, the opportunity to get his way out of the situation. Is it right that two people whose futures are connected because they sort of come as a package really Richard Hughes and Michael Edwards. If Edwards is frustrated with what's going on, is he likely to stay or are FSG likely to offer him a new contract? And equally how does that affect the decision making? Is it healthy that Liverpool might be on a search for a new head coach or a manager knowing that the two guys making these decisions, there's a lot of doubts around their futures. Now some head coaches or managers will just back themselves and say well it doesn't really matter which sport and Director I work for. They've all got big egos. But nevertheless there are some. If the theory is true that the wisest people in football choose who they work for not on the basis of the badge of the club, but the people that they're working for and those people's futures are uncertain. That leaves Adrift at Liverpool as far as I'm concerned. FSG's entrusted Michael Edwards and Richard Hughes run the club on their behalf and now suddenly, you know, there's, in a very short period of time, it feels like their futures might be a bit uncertain as well. We've, you know, the Athletics reported on interest from Saudi Arabia and Richard Hughes as well.
- [21:59]
A
That was my next question.
- [22:01]
C
So, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a concern really. I think we've sort of been kidded for quite a long time to this idea that sporting directors, the main, you know, they're looking after the long term to medium term interests of football clubs. The reality is that their contracts are just as flexible as the interest that comes their way or the performance. So quickly 2024 is slipping into 2027. It's quite unclear what happens beyond that. Period's a long time in football, I accept that. But I think the concern for me as well is touching on some of the things that Matt said. Fsg, I'm quite uncertain about their appetite at the moment, you know, for a lot of things. You know, the stuff that we've just spoken about there in terms of do they really want the hassle of taking on another club on. All these guys are getting a bit older. They really want the hassle of dealing with all that and the PR issues around. That doesn't sound like it. And then, you know, if Edwards and Hughes were to step aside, who fills that role, you know, who are the boots on the ground from FSG's perspective? Did he go back to a model with, with Mike Gordon who doesn't seem to want to be involved anymore. He's done his, you know, he's done his turn. So it's, it's a, it's, yeah, there's, it feels like Liverpool are sort of just drifting towards a significant problem as far as I'm concerned in the not too distant future. Yeah.
- [23:27]
A
Matt, there's a lot of what ifs here, but we've reported on the Saudi Pro League being interested in the talents of people like Richard Hughes, Michael Edwards as well. I mean this is a fascinating one. And we've spoken about the Saudi Pro League. We've Mainly spoken about obviously the consumption of players. But looking now at some of the key talent behind the scenes within big institutions like Liverpool. Is this something we could see happening over the coming years? Bringing in the best brains from the likes of the Premier League to try and bolster their league?
- [24:00]
B
Well, that's certainly the plan. I mean they've, they've, they've been talking about that for a while, right? They have these big ambitions. I can't remember how many years it is. We're now into, into the relaunch of the Saudi Pro League, what they call their privatization. I think it's about three years now and there's already, maybe because it hasn't happened to us, we haven't noticed, but there are, there are a lot of very senior Portuguese, Italian, Spanish execs working in Saudi Arabia already with great CVs. There are a lot of South American players. They changed their focus about 18 months ago. Instead of chasing as they did in that first summer or two, the first summer and winter, really, really big famous people, they then started to say, okay, we're gonna, which I thought was quite a good idea actually be a bit more strategic. Let's, let's sort of, you know, racing to kind of gallop past La Liga and Premier League and Bundesliga. Let's target, let's say the Portuguese league, the Dutch league, the Belgian league, maybe even the French league as being that first landing spot for the super talented African player, the super talented South American player. So that is where Saudi Pro league has been spending its money. My take this feels like another podcast is a bit like all my points about mco. The thesis is very much unproven. I think the Saudi Pro league has gone from the 50th best league in the world to about the 20th best league in the world and has got stuck and will have a real problem once Ronaldo stops providing clips to keep them in the, in, you know, the, the global debate, the global conversation. I don't think Saudi Arabia's got an easier place to live. I don't think it's particularly attractive place to live right, right now because of massive instability in the Gulf. I don't think sport has fully got its head around the fact that the world has changed, certainly changed for the next year or so. All Gulf states are going to be concentrating on themselves for a while. They have big, big issues to face at home around infrastructure, defense, relationships with abroad. The Gulf I think is going to sort of in terms of its big investment on external sporting projects, all that's going to be shelved for a while. I'm not saying it doesn't come back. I'm just saying it's all massively on the back burner. I think it was already moving to the back burner. Saudi Arabia has been signaling for the last year or so that it has to focus on projects in Saudi Arabia. It's got a lot to do. So that's my kind of overarching point about, about the Gulf. I'm just going to thinking about fsg. I have a bit of a problem with the word drift. Drift suggests to me complacency. Drift seems like a more longer term thing. I think some things have come together and they've made some bad decisions and there's the potential for drift. I just doesn't. This doesn't feel like a drift situation yet. You know they are, they won, they won the Premier League last year. They were, they were pretty good in lots of competitions. You know, I know PSG were the better team but they PSG beat them on penalties. They then go into the summer and spend an absolute fortune. Everyone's wise after the fact, but I seem to remember they won the transfer window patting on the back. Everyone was celebrating that, you know. So is that drift? I'm looking at January. They signed three teenage center backs. Very, very high, sexy position. You know, all the data recruitment people, they've signed something like four or five young goalkeepers. These are very strategic positions. They were dropping 50, 60 million on more slightly older center backs. Is this drift? I agree that they've step back from the MCO decision. I think for quite a good reason. I don't think MCOs work, I really don't. I think it was perfectly understandable and natural for them two years ago when everyone was thinking, oh, hello, this is the way, this is the future. Everyone is doing mco. We should probably hire someone to do this for us. Who's the best person we can hire? Oh, it's Michael Edwards, by the way. I think there was a defensive element to hiring Michael Edwards as well in that they didn't want to see him end up as director of football at Man United or somewhere else. So I think that slightly influenced their decision. I think they brought him in in good faith. Yeah. Please have a look at clubs. We, we, we're multi sport, we own, we own different franchises. We are capable, we have the bandwidth, we're bright enough to do this. I think they then actually, you know, once they've done the DD and they've looked at Getafe and Monaco and Bordeaux and so in all these clubs and they've just seen, they've just seen headaches, they targeted France, Spain, Portugal. All of those countries have very clear pros in terms of players, strength of the league, the Brexit issue, connections with France and Africa, you know, francophone Africa, Portugal famously the landing spot for Brazilian talent. But all their leagues have problems. They are massively loss making the French TV deal craters. French clubs, all kinds of trouble. Spanish clubs quite hard to buy. In Spanish clubs they have very high valuations and kind of quite complicated debt structures. Same with Portugal. I can totally see how the sensible, rational money people, the bean counters at FFG have gone, nah, nah, let's not do this. This just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Now is that drift? It was a mistake. It was a mistake. Maybe they've wasted some time. But is that drift? I don't know. Doesn't feel like drift to me. Yet.
- [29:23]
C
Drift is allowing contracts to run down of key personnel who you've appointed to run the club and then all those contracts running out at the same time and doing nothing about it. So does Arnold Slot, should Arna Slot's contract be done first or should Michael Edwards contract be done first? And if Michael Edwards contract is not even up for negotiation because clearly he's unhappy with the way it's gone over the multi club ownership now, you know, I'm no fan of multi club ownership, that's just my view. But the problem is very quick. You know, football doesn't stand still. It moves very quickly. There's a lot for all the noise Liverpool made last season about with all the transfers that they spent, a lot of other clubs spent a huge amount of money as well and made better decisions than Liverpool. I would argue so very quickly this could unravel at Liverpool. I think, you know, is it drift now? Maybe not. But it's certainly drifting in a direction that they've allowed. A situation where all three key figureheads at Liverpool's contract run out at the same time and there's absolutely no clarity on what's going to happen with each of those figures. So it is a point of major concern because I think fsg, if I'm being, you know, critical of them, I think they thought, well, we delivered a second league title. We've now got the people in charge who will represent us and do right by us and you know, people we've worked with before, who we trust. If those people are gone, where does that leave fsg who fills up for you? Yes, yeah, they've delivered on some of the other points that you've made, they've also, you know, hiked up ticket prices as well. If you look at what's going on at the Boston Red Sox at the moment, and I speak to people there, huge concern about the direction there. They had a huge period of success going up into 2018, nothing since falling away. There was chanting to believe at the most recent Red Sox match, demanding that they leave. You know, so I'm not saying, you know, the problem that they've got as owners is no one's ever going to sing the name. This is expected at Liverpool. They've got to get things right. You know, all the things that you say is true, Matt. They got a lot of things right in the past, but at the moment they're getting a lot wrong.
- [31:40]
A
And there's a real concern a couple of league title, champions, league. I mean, this is what dreams are made of from a football fan's perspective. You look at that, you're thinking, oh,
- [31:49]
B
well, they haven't done that badly.
- [31:51]
C
You know, I'm not saying that they've done badly, but at the moment they're getting a lot wrong. And it's where that heads. It's as simple as that. It's like it's. There's not a level of entitlement. I mean, I guess it might come across as a level of entitlement at Liverpool, but you know, you look at the club's history and they're the expectations of the club. So you don't just say, oh well, that's what got them into the spot where they didn't win the league for 30 years, you know. So I think that at the moment it's. You can't be definitive about what adrift is, but it feels like there's this uneasy movement towards what comes next. I feel, because very quickly all the key figures who have delivered the titles that you mentioned, IO could have gone, where does that leave? Where's the memory there? What was the expertise at the highest level of the club? Now, I'm not saying that they should, that they should stay, definitely, because I think the performance of each of those individuals has been poor. But nevertheless, fsg got a plan for what comes next. Liverpool. Do they just think that people are just going to say, oh great, well, we won the. Won the league, you know, in 2020. Won the league in 2025. That's enough. See you later. We'll just carry on paying our high ticket prices for a team that's under delivering and probably not going to be in the Champions League. Is that. Is that acceptable? I don't think it is.
- [33:14]
D
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimolere.
- [33:19]
A
Matt. It's really fascinating. We talk about Edwards contract and Hughes contract. Obviously Arna Slot's contract expires at the end of next season as well. And we look at the precarious position Liverpool are currently in in the Premier League. Is there pressure on him on a slot to secure Champions League football from a financial perspective, particularly after you've mentioned it, them, you know, winning the transfer, you know, the transfer deadline situation, you know, because it's still about league positions, it's still about bringing money in, it's still about where we see it, on profit and all that kind of stuff.
- [33:54]
B
Oh, good. Yeah, of course there is. Look, FSG have always made it pretty clear they want to be in the Champions League. Right. What was the European Super League all about? It was FSG saying, yeah, that's where we belong. Belong. Right. We shouldn't have to qualify. Those are our guys. We want to play those every season. They've been pretty honest about this. So to go back to my kind of drift versus have they made a number of bad calls? Slot, I think is really interesting. That was Klopp's team. Yeah, he did. He did a great job of coming in immediately and tweaking one or two things. They were untouchable for the first 2/3 of that season. Huge lead. Drifted in a bit. I didn't mean to say drifted in, but, you know, so I'm looking again. Right. We're now sort of two seasons in. It's a bit meh. FSG have sacked managers before. Managers get sacked. The only one they really liked was Klopp. Yeah, I'm not telling our listeners and viewers anything they don't already know. Liverpool social media is an excitable place at the best of times. Slot is in huge, huge pressure come 6th, 7th, 8th. Well, do they even want to join the Conference League? Because that's the cost almost. They probably would accept the Europa League, but yeah, not making the Champions League is massive and I, hey, FSG are not going to listen to me. But yeah, possibly sack him. I mean the reason they won't and the reason everyone is a little bit. Certainly the bigger clubs and Liverpool, like I said, have sacked people but they don't like to sack managers. And of course you don't like sacking a manager who won the Premier League within very sort of recent memory. It's the Fergie fear, isn't It. How many years did you give Fergie? You gave him four or five years before it all came together. Now no one's going to get four or five years now, but let's say two or three years and then suddenly he becomes the greatest outlier, this incredible outperformer in every possible way and just makes Man United who Man United were for most of my life now. Is I sort of that guy? I don't know. I don't think so. But I couldn't say with 100% certainty that he's not that guy. Is he Klopp? No, I don't think he is, no. If we're being more realistic, I mean, I don't know, are you going to get any more Fergies, but could you get another Klopp? Is. Is Arnie Slot Klopp? I don't think he is. So, you know, I think the drift argument comes if, if Liverpool, you know, scrape in or they come six or in Europa League and we're still having this conversation in a year's time. I suspect we wouldn't be having this conversation in a year's time, but let's say we're having this conversation at Christmas. Ish. You know, Liverpool haven't got better. I don't know, it doesn't, it doesn't look good. And I, you know, of, of those contracts that Simon's flagged up, I genuinely think that Michael Edwards is going to go. I think, you know, I don't see that relationship. What is he doing? He hasn't got a job at the moment. He was working for fsg. His title was an FSG job. They're paying him a fortune. They should shake hands and let him go.
- [37:05]
C
Do you think Liverpool should do something about that before it becomes a problem then? Because otherwise they will be drifting.
- [37:11]
B
Well, I think we're in a. Yeah, we're in a bit of a standoff there, aren't we? You know, I think he's paid big money. I'm hearing like 10 million, you know, huge, huge salary. Right. So he's, he's owed, he's owed to make him go. He's got a year and a half, 15 million. Shake his hand. There's a conversation to be had there, there's. There's a deal to be done and maybe they find something else for him to do. I can't see it because I don't know what that would be. He didn't, he didn't want to do it. You know, he left that job in 2022. Didn't he? You know, so he came back to run an MCO group. That isn't going to happen. They're not going to change their mind. They're not changing their mind. You know, I'm making calls on that. Only last week was that a tactical. Was that a bit of kind of brinksmanship? Was that, Was that, you know, are they playing 3D chess here? Was that to bring prices down, to walk away and make the Getafe guy go, no, no. All right, sorry, sorry. Come back, come back, come back. No, FSG have changed their minds on mco. My club hasn't got anything to do. So I think there's one decision that gets resolved pretty quickly and I think the Arnie Slot decision is a pretty normal. Like 2/3 of football clubs this summer, maybe half of all football clubs will be having similar conversations. Managers are very disposable. Is he still our guy? You know, you're only sort of thinking two, three years max in the future with a manager. Can we really see Arnie slotted still in, still in the dugout in 20, 27, 28? Don't know. Well, the interesting thing is you tell me, Simon. You watch them more regularly than me.
- [38:40]
A
Yeah, they've insisted they've got faith in him. What's the reality here if Liverpool don't make Champions League football next season?
- [38:49]
C
Well, they'll be missing out on a huge amount of money and given the Liverpool operating a real economic world that's going to put a huge hole in any ability that they have in the transfer market. Of course they've been in this position before, not so long ago under Jurgen Klopp when they were in the Europa League and with a bit of jiggery poker, he did manage to have a bit of a go in the transfer market. But the situation is a bit different now. Each year everything moves along and the challenge of operating in that world becomes higher and higher and higher and higher. So there is that, you know, so it will affect what comes next and what any potential new head coach or manager can do. You know, I mentioned the three big away games that they've got coming up. I mean there's so much focus on the Champions League and what Liverpool do there. I mean even if Liverpool were to get a result in Paris, which they did last season and Liverpool do have actually this, I think they do have the players to, to to hair top quality opposition. But whether they're ruthless enough, they've then got Fulham on Saturday and Liverpool have not at any point this season proven themselves As a team that can put a set of results together that puts them in a position that they should roughly be. Well a team with their spends and alleged ability should, should, should roughly be in. They're currently fifth in the league. The Fortune is a guest at the the top five this year hasn't been that strong. I think you know Chelsea, Man United, Villa all look like they could sort of allow them in but you know on, on the, on Arnold Schloss I think that. I think a lot of what happens at Liverpool is still dictated by what happens on the match day and by that I mean the results of the team, the way the match going fan base responds to victories or bad defeats And I think Matt's mentioned a few times sort of the online community of Liverpool supporters. There's an irony really. Maybe I'm speaking a bit out of turn here but I think over a long period of time FSG has tried to monetize the global fan base and a lot of people who are in that fan base are more impatient than the match going fan base I would say. And this annoys the online fan base as well. There's a massive split in terms of what people actually think. So in their attempts to grow this brand and make it stronger they've added pressure to the results as well I would argue and the added noise that the noise is amplified with every defeat. I think online people feel that the match going people are a bit too patient in some ways and a bit too understanding when things go wrong. But you know, I mean I think that's changed over the last couple of weeks. We saw at Manchester City people. People left the ground with. Started to leave with half an hour to go. So I think, I think slot is sort of. He's teetering really at the moment it feels I have sympathy with him because he's had to deal with a lot of things this season that actually no Liverpool managers had to deal with before. And there was so much noise at the start of the season about the spend. I did warn against that. I've never equated huge amount of spend and radical change to a consistent success. It just doesn't happen in football. Am I surprised at where Liverpool are at? Yes, but I didn't expect them to go.
- [42:24]
B
We haven't mentioned Jossi yet either have we?
- [42:26]
C
Well that is always there and that has been a big feature of the season. Had Liverpool wonder league everybody would have said well they've won a fajata. But as the months have gone on and the results have got worse people it's become less of a disco, you know, less of a talking point. I mean, are the players thinking about it now? I, I don't know, but I think the combination of that, the combination of winning the league, having the, the sort of the focus to go again and do it again, you know, this is something Liverpool haven't done since the 80s, going and win the league back to back. You know, it's a massive challenge and only a few clubs have been able to do that. So it's harder than people think. But I get the feeling, and I think this is where there's a disconnect as well with the players. They think, well we've won the league, we've got to go and win the Champions League now. And a lot of people, certainly locally in Liverpool, well no, we've got to defend the title and do it better than they did five years ago, six years ago. And you've seen that in the performances in the Champions League this season. They've been a lot more focused, a lot more aggressive. It's almost felt like they'd been saving themselves for those games. And that's just not good enough really from Liverpool's perspective, you know, the league does matter and you know, people can say, well, you know, you've done well at this, you've done well at that in the past. But very quickly that, that gets forgotten and Liverpool are in a really sticky spot at the moment. And you know, I, I think unless they're careful, unless they make some good strong decisions over the next couple of months about, you know, about from FSG's perspective, from Michael Edwards and Richard Hughes perspective around the coach, you know, this could drag into next season as well. There is a situation where a bit like Brandon Rogers Rodgers when he very clearly should have been sacked really after, after what happens? This is third season in charge. I'm not saying this, this should happen to Arnesot but there's a danger that if they, they get the decision wrong, it drags into the next season and they actually end up missing out on, on people who might be able to replace him.
- [44:28]
A
Okay, well look, he is PSG at the Pac de France in the Champions League on Wednesday night. Can Liverpool get up for that match? Well, we shall find out. Gents, let's leave it there. Si, Matt, appreciate your time and also thank you guys for joining us as well. We'll catch you soon.
- [44:46]
D
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