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- [00:00]
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- [01:38]
Ayo Akinwalere
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimwaleere. On Monday, Leeds United reclaimed their seat at the top table after two years in the championship.
- [01:47]
Beren Cross
Oh, he's hit the post.
- [01:49]
Ayo Akinwalere
Bubbles around.
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Commercial Voiceover
It's there. It's pushed in again. Peru with another goal for Leeds United.
- [01:56]
Ayo Akinwalere
From Wembley World to promotion paradise this.
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Phil Hay
Season for Leeds United. No playoffs for their leads have gone.
- [02:02]
Beren Cross
Up automatically from the championship.
- [02:04]
Ayo Akinwalere
So what lessons can they learn from their Premier League relegation last time out and also how can they stay up for the long haul this time? All right with us today we have the Athletics Leeds United correspondent Bering Cross and someone who knows a thing or two about Leeds. It's Phil Hay as well. Phil, this is actually part of the master plan. We basically made sure that Leeds got promoted so we could wheel you out of Leeds retirement so you could be as objective as you can now. There's no allegiances anymore. This is the new Phil Hay. Just go full ham on us, mate.
- [02:37]
Phil Hay
Ah, we can get stuck in. Yeah, no, you were saying a few questions earlier and you're saying would this be specialist subject on Mastermind and and possibly I Could do the wilderness years from 2006 to 2018 with a stroke of genius from Marcelo Bielsa towards the end. It's funny though, you know, and I wrote this in the newsletter earlier. The thing I learned about Leeds over 18 years was that they never ever take the easy path. When they can kind of wade through hell. There's always like a tripwire somewhere. And that's what made yesterday such a big outlier for them. They absolutely smashed Stoke Bunley, did the business with the minimum of Fosset Tuff Moor. It kind of turned into quite a stress free day which just isn't the Leeds way. So maybe turned over a new leaf.
- [03:19]
Ayo Akinwalere
Yeah, who knows? Who knows what Baron, you've kept your eyes on Leeds for the entire season so far. And you know we talk about that 6 nil dismantling at Stoke City. I was thinking about this actually. You know, obviously the fans would have loved what happened. But actually the last time Leeds were promoted there were no fans there to sort of witness this. Was. Was there an extra spice to it this time around?
- [03:37]
Beren Cross
Oh absolutely, I think, yeah. As Phil knows, in 2020 when they. When they got over the line, it was all very much sort of done remotely. We were in the stadiums on our own and you kind of wanted that shared experience and then it wasn't quite there. And fans did gather at the Bremner statue on the day they got up against, you know, the better advice of the nation. But it definitely was different yesterday. I think like Phil says, it's sort of the sting was taken out of it quite quickly because they went up 2 nil inside 8. I think by then we all knew it was going to be quite an easy day. So I would argue the bigger moment was probably in. In the previous game. I think when they realized that Sheffield United were losing at Plymouth. I mean that was amazing. The last 20 minutes or so that leads went over Preston where it was almost like a throwback because the signal on Ellen Road isn't very good. So you've got sort of like these smatterings of noises around the same where people. The new the news is coming through that Plymouth have not only come from one down, they're now leading two one and Leeds were only a goal up, had to hold on. It's just this amazing union between the players and the fans and sort of just willing them over the line. And I think that was probably a slightly more special moment in that yesterday was more like a procession really.
- [04:41]
Ayo Akinwalere
I like that that Phil. Let's talk about Daniel Farker's leads this season. You know they've beaten Marcelo Bielsa's record of 93 points from the 201920 season. And with two games to go actually. How highly do you rate this current iteration of Leeds United?
- [04:59]
Phil Hay
Well, Beren's probably better placed to draw the comparison than me having followed them all season. But they're incredibly strong championship unit and I think they'd have stood up to scrutiny in most championship seasons going back year after year. They're probably more balanced than last season as well. Not by a huge amount but by a little margin which I think has made a difference in the end. Tanaka has given their midfield an extra level. I think Solomon's come up with big moments when they've needed them. I think Dan James probably borderline player of the year, not just at the club but in the the division. And they aren't a million miles off the full package. But in comparison to 2020 when they went up with Bielsa, there's no denying that Fakha's resources are superior by some distance or I would say so anyway. It's a far more expensive squad and I think as good as you're likely to get, give or take in this division. And I think without taking any credit away from Faqa, he hasn't had to enhance players to the same degree or in the same way that Bielsa did. Easily forgotten now, but Bielsa inherited a mid table squad which was know comprehensively mid table and he coached them to a really phenomenal level. And I don't think that's necessarily been the story of this promotion. But at the same time Faka has nailed it this season. He really has. They've been the best team in the league. I do think that's. That's true. But it's also not to ignore Burnley's defensive record which is completely ludicrous and you almost have to read twice to to believe it. So Burnley deserve to go up to. No doubt about that. I think Leeds deserve the title but that is a top two I think reflects the two best sides in the division.
- [06:30]
Ayo Akinwalere
Yeah, huge congrats to Scott Parker, actually another coach who's bought three teams from the championship into the Premier League as well. And yeah, do you buy that Baron? You know, Focker hasn't had to do too much in the way that Bielsa might have had to sort of wave his magic wand on the squad in the same way to get similar kind of results.
- [06:49]
Beren Cross
Absolutely. I think that has been the big debate this season in that it is largely entertainment versus results in the park. And I think like with a lot of things in the modern Leeds era, all roads lead back to Bielsa. And I think the way he enchanted the entire city and like Phil says, that was a really bang average squad that he turned into a team that fell at a final hurdle in his first season and then absolutely romped it in the second season. And I think it is. I reflected this in a few pieces of season. It's almost like an unfair stick to beat Farker with him. It's not Farker's fault that he's been handed, like Phil says, one of the strongest, if not the most sort of financially biggest suede budget, if you like, in championship history. So it's not his fault. But he has had to navigate and get it over the line. And I spoke to various sources for the piece we published last night in that they say that Faka doesn't get enough credit behind the scenes. They say that he is incredibly well put together and you've got several players there who would play week in, week out for pretty much every other team in the league. And he's come through this season without any major bust ups. Everyone I've spoken to speaks really highly of the harmony and they say that if people are not getting on with this group behind the scenes then there's probably something wrong with them because it's such a well recruited group of characters that have bought into this and that does take skill from Farker to manage that. He may not need to coach them in the same way that Bielsa did because he's got some very good footballers, but he's had to manage a lot of other aspects, I would say.
- [08:08]
Phil Hay
I think with Fakha, his kind of presence in what's left of Bielsa's shadow is quite in the tradition of Leeds going back years and years. You had the Revie era first of all, which hung over the club for a long time and was fabulous while it was fabulous. But you might have heard the stories of how Wilkinson taking down the photos of that era inside Elland Road when he became manager in the late 80s because he felt it, it was too much of a. Of a weight on them. And then after Leeds won the title in 1992, never been repeated by them. And again it's been something to live up to that's been beyond pretty much every squad since. But even subsequent to that, Illyri in the Champions League run was used as the kind of benchmark for every way in which Leeds were failing in the 21st century Ligue 1 championship, you know, getting nowhere near those standards. So there always seems to be this, this thing in the background that you're trying to live up to and often struggling to live up to. But I think in isolation with F they made a really logical, sensible choice after relegation on the basis that when it comes to the championship he does know how to figure it out and he does get it done and he's on for a third title. And you, you cannot knock that.
- [09:15]
Ayo Akinwalere
Yeah, Baron. I was, you know, keeping my eye on the championship this season and he just felt like Leeds just kept winning and winning and winning and that went on for what, three months or so. Never lost a match for three months. That's pretty incredible for you having watched his team. Obviously there would have been periods there that were some moments and real highlights for Leeds fans. Which stands out for you not through that moment but actually through the entire season that you know, Leeds fans can go do you know what? That is our team and actually we're going to give the Premier League a good run for its money next season.
- [09:43]
Beren Cross
Well, I mean I'll go to the final part of your question first. I mean I think in terms of giving the Premier League a run for its money, I mean given what we've seen this season, which I'm sure we'll get on to, I don't think this, I don't think I've seen anything this season to think that they're going to give the top flight run for its money because the golf is so big. But in terms of what they've played in front of them this season, I mean the 70 win over Carlos stands out. But I think anybody that was there that day can say that that was as much Cardiff as it was Leeds. Leed have threatened to do that to a lot of teams this season and it was one of those days where every chance went in and Cardiff were very, very meek and fell away quite quickly as the lead table has since shown. So I think I'd say that the highest moments were certainly the, the late comeback wins over Sunderland and Sheffield United. They were, they went away to what would have been fourth place Sunderland and then away to second place Sheffield United in the space of a week and beat them both with injury time winners which you know, any football fan will can understand those parameters and realize exactly what, what Leeds pulled off on those nights and they, they particularly well in those games. But the way they came back and provided those moments for the fans were really, really striking and, and huge gains on the table in terms of where it left them in terms of footballing play. I would say that the wins after the Cardiff win were really impressive. They went away to Coventry who were in a really good. Would stay all in a really, really good space under Lampard and Watford who have fallen away since. But you know, going away to Watford under the lights, it's not always been easy for Leeds. But having beaten Carter 70 they could have then gone and beat both of them 6 or 7 nil as well. I mean they were just really purring and finding their moment at that time.
- [11:12]
Ayo Akinwalere
Phil, back to Daniel Farker. I'm just thinking about how Leeds ended last season so close to promotion. Obviously Southampton ended up going up but you say this is a good appointment for Leeds in this period. But there's also a lot of pressure that goes with that because the expectation for this season is that you have to hit the blocks running and actually try and get promoted. And in fairness he's actually managed it well and that's exactly what's happened.
- [11:34]
Phil Hay
Very much So. I mean 90 points last season, 90 plus points this season. And I mean genuinely this is a tough, tough club to manage. Seriously demanding. You get big mood swings here. You do get big pressure no matter what's, what's going on. And I think he found that last season. I mean Baron will remember the two of us sitting in a pub near King's Cross late at night after they were, they were smashed at QPR last season. And you know that did feel like a. A bit of a bottle job if truth be told. You know, it was kind of like a textbook failure on a big night where it needed to happen and they didn't show up at all. And there was that wobble this season, wasn't there? There were the draws. I think three in a row was qpr, Swansea and Luton where it felt a little bit like it was happening again. And I think the sort of optimist in me was kind of telling myself that Sheffield United in particular weren't insurmountably good. I did still think that they could be flaky and at the crucial moment they, they kind of were. But that was almost what was unique about yesterday. And the build up to yesterday was that, you know, when all said and done, Leeds didn't panic, they didn't lose it, they held, held it together and they, you know, they absolutely got got over the line. But I mean I spoke to somebody within the 49ers group after the playoff final defeat last season or shortly just before I think and you know, they were talking about why and how they'd come to, to admire Fakker and why he was going to stay on for the season. And one of the reasons was that Paragmh Ratty, the club chairman, in the words of this person, just said he wasn't inclined to tear everything up just because it hadn't quite paid off first time around. I think their point was that he was a sort of character who would let a scenario play out properly if he, if he had faith in it, which, which he did. But also they did rate the results and they did rate the football in general without pretending that it was spectacular or it was Bielsa esque. They liked it and it was working for them. And they also appreciated, I think, the way in which FAQA deals with and continues to deal with the media as a rule. Doesn't make headlines, doesn't pick fights with the people above him, doesn't talk out of turn, doesn't say things which cause friction internally or not, any more than any manager is prone to. I don't think everything's always been entirely sweetness and light with recruitment, but all in all he and the ownership have dovetailed nicely and that's what's made it a good choice.
- [13:45]
Beren Cross
Phil's right. His press conferences have been immaculate. We don't get too many lines from him at all, to be honest. In the line of work that we're in, we would like maybe some, some more.
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Ayo Akinwalere
I was going to say hard as a journalist not to get out of the manager.
- [13:59]
Phil Hay
What is, what does fire beast mean? Baron? Yeah, he was saying he was going to, he was going to celebrate like a fire beast. So what's, what's the gen there?
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Beren Cross
If there is really something to celebrate maybe today and one of the next days, during the next weeks, believe me, I will be a fire beast. And yeah, won't be cheesecake and won't be coffee. There will be also some, some other drinks and Norma like to, to speak about the next training session and to be disciplined. I will be the first on the table, you can be sure. That was quote of the air. I think last night we were, we're all sort of in that post match haze of sort of the main about promotion and yeah he was, he was saying he's going to be celebrating like a fire beast if and when they do get promoted. And I think based on some of the stories I've heard from last night that probably is quite true. I don't know if it's something that that's that is sort of from the German language. Maybe it translates into, it translates into Firebeast and makes more sense. But certainly I think any local should be looking for merchandise with, with Firebeast on it and they killing.
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Ayo Akinwalere
Is that, is there an idea that, you know, you've spoken about, you know, how he's been able to manage this squad and obviously he's inherited a good squad and obviously they're well paid squad as well. So no surprises where leads are right now. But you know, I'm trying to think about the connection with fans as well, right? The players. Clearly there's a connection there with the players, otherwise they don't play for him. But how do the fans connect with him, Baron, this season? How, how has it gone down?
- [15:25]
Beren Cross
I mean, I would argue that there's probably still a section of the fan base that hasn't connected with him. And I think that will, that will just be a constant issue. And I still think, as we've already alluded to, I think he almost can't prove himself until they're in the Premier League. And maybe we'd have a debate as to whether he even gets that chance. I mean, that is certainly something that's, that's floating in the air over the course of the summer and that may well be one of the bigger decisions we see Leeds take this summer. But as it stands right now, I think again, it's unfair because he can only play what's in front of him. But with the squad he's got, last year was definitely a failure and this year you would have to say he's probably sort of gone par, maybe one below par in terms of the performance he's had with the players he's got, they really should have won the league this year or finished top two and it looks like they're going to do that. So whilst yes, he should be praised because you still have to get through 46 games of pitfalls and problems and injury issues, you still have to be what's in front of you. I, I still think that proper connection, I don't think anybody will replicate what Bielsa had. But for example, let's say he got that first year in the Premier League and he kept them up and maybe even got towards lower mid table at that point, I think you would start to see a connection and some fans really think, wow, this guy is cutting the mustard now.
- [16:35]
Ayo Akinwalere
What do you think, Phil? Not just the manager himself, but the brand of football that he plays for, this fan base that can be volatile at times, but also expect A certain style. How does that marry together?
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Phil Hay
Yeah, I think part of the complication, and I suspect it's going to be impossible not to answer a lot of these questions by harking back to Bielsa. The difficulty for Farker is that because he was relegated and because Leeds were in, I wouldn't say a decent position financially because they lost £60 million last season, but were in a position where they could maintain a really strong squad, he was always going to have a really strong fighting chance. And it's not to say, I mean, if you go back to the first month of last season, the squad was incredibly weak. They were losing players all over the place place. And, and that has been a bit of a story of the last two seasons. You know, big players going like Archie Gray and, and Georgina Ruta last, last summer. But then again, that is, you know, that is how it is in the championship and that's how vulnerable teams are after they go down. But whereas with Bielsa, he seemed to magic that promotion from nothing off from a really, you know, a standing start that that was given to him. For Falker, there was. There was far more, you know, potential to get leads up. And I think, as Baron says, you did expect them to go well. I think it had to happen in two seasons. I just don't think a coach gets a third shot at this with that sort of squad and those resources. And it does seem to me from being more of a distance over the past 12 months that, you know, style has been an issue in it and it has been questioned. I think it would be less so if Leeds were in the Premier League and they wouldn't be turning over results like this because the Premier League's too strong. But if they were going well, I think there would be far less scrutiny on the standard of performances because to a certain degree you just have to keep your head above, above water. But to go back to what we're saying about 90 points last season, 90 plus this season, I'm not sure there's a whole lot more that Fakha could have done. So, yes, I'm aware of the criticism of style, but I'm not so sure that it should feature in the story of what's been a pretty quality year in total. Leeds are difficult club to manage. You don't get much leeway. You don't get much breathing space when it's going badly wrong. And he's been up to it. Whether he's up to beyond his and in the Premier League, I think is a perfectly reasonable Point of discussion, to be honest.
- [18:49]
Ayo Akinwalere
Well, you've brought me there right now, Phil, because I'm really interested to hear both your perspectives on this. You know, listen to this, right, Daniel Farker has a points per game average of just 0.53 in the Premier League, having won six, drawn eight and lost 35 in his previous 49 top flight games when in charge of Norwich City. That's actually the ninth worst record in the competition's history for managers with more than 10 games. Now this is my question to both of you. What's different from Farker at Norwich to Farker at Leeds? And is, has this guy as a coach, as a manager, evolved enough to now withstand the juggernaut that is the Premier League? Because it's also moved quite rapidly, fast in the Premier League and you've seen the disparity grow, especially when championship teams go up and come almost straight back down. Who's taking that? I could see you both going.
- [19:43]
Beren Cross
I think they are worlds apart in terms of the job that he's now got in his hands. I think Norwich, they went up. Farker would certainly say he wasn't backed in the transfer market. I would imagine people that were closer to those Norwich teams would probably agree. I can't remember Norwich having a go in any way. Like the teams have gone up more in recent years, have done. So I think whilst his record is, you know, it's terrible as you've just said. I think it's very, very unfair to say that that's going to be mirrored with what he does at Leeds if he does get that chance next season. So I think think those Norwich teams were weak and they stayed weak and he never really got going again. He went down after that first start with Norwich and then came straight back up again. So it's not like he became a terrible coach overnight. He went down to the championship and did it all over again. And ultimately they lost patience, I think, in that second relegation season under him. So I wouldn't really sort of put much stock in what happened at Norwich. I think it's an entirely different situation. I know that if he does get the chance to do next season with Leeds, certainly the noises from behind the scenes are that there will be money to spend. I mean, 49 is a enterprises which again is another debate about their ambitions. And where they see this going is that as it stands, whilst they are custodians of the club, they need it to be successful, they need it to keep moving forward. They're going for planning commission this year on a Massive extension at Elland Road. They need to establish themselves in the Premier League as a regular finisher. If they do have a long term vision of selling up and making a big profit, they need to be finishing comfortably around mid table to get that kind of price that they want to achieve in the market. So if they are going to go they, they know they will need to, to back the manager. So I think Farker would certainly say that. I think he made this point in his, in his job interview. I think there's a lot been said about the fact that when he pitched to Angus Kinnear, Parag Barath, Peter Lowy, he almost didn't need to pick Stummouth because he kind of said, well, I'll come to you, I'll get you up and then you're going to give, you're going to be my vehicle to prove myself in the Premier League. Where he's not short on confidence. Daniel Fark, anybody that hasn't spent time with him, yeah, he's well aware is that he backs himself and I think he likes to think that if he can go with Leeds up there, which is an entirely different piece to what Norwich was, he would back himself to prove himself that level and rapidly improve that point average that you've just mentioned.
- [21:48]
Phil Hay
These are such difficult summers for clubs who go up because realistically no promoted side, with very rare exceptions is going to be able to spend a fortune when they go into the Premier League. And there's a really stark increasingly start picture at the moment of clubs going up, coming straight back down and this season with a, with a real, real whimper. So even though it's a really ruthless point of discussion, you know, what do you do with the players, what do you do with the coach? It's one that, that has to be had because the Premier League isn't getting any, any more forgiven. It would look incredibly harsh if, if Fakker wasn't to be given a go in the Premier League. And I think you could say the same about Scott Parker over at Burnley. But Parker has the same issue that he's never really cut it in the Premier League. And I think the kind of pragmatist or the realist in any board member or club ownership group has to look at it and say clubs are finding it incredibly difficult to take this leap and in fact in the last two seasons it's been impossible for them to take this leap. So do we have to think differently and in a broader sense? I don't think this just applies to either Leeds or Bunley. Are we reaching a point where clubs need a specialist for the championship, but then need a different specialist for the Premier League? And the thing with the 49ers is that they never intended to buy a championship club. They never intended to be in the championship with Leeds. And it will have been extremely expensive the last two seasons for them. And going up now with the intention of redeveloping the stadium and, you know, the intention of moving forward, they'll absolutely not want to consider relegation again or to invite it if they can do their best to mitigate the risk of it, which is going to be naturally high. It kind of has to be. So at this point, I think I would expect them to. To back Faka and to. To stick with him, but they'll know that there's an element of risk in that because I think Farker will be fairly strict in demanding the players that he wants, they will come in as his players and. And they always run the risk that further down the line you then pass them on to another coach. Has happened time and time again with Leeds in the Premier League. And I think also every club that goes up is going to be in a position, and you've seen it with Southampton, you've seen it in with Leicester as well, not with Ipswich, who've stuck with McKenna, but in a position where they're thinking about what has to happen if they need to make a change. Because these things can come at you so quickly once you get promoted.
- [24:06]
Ayo Akinwalere
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akinwalere.
- [24:10]
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- [26:14]
Ayo Akinwalere
Let's move on and let's actually celebrate some of the players that have got leads to where they are this season. Baron. You know, last summer Ethan Ampadu was made captain by Farker at the age of 23. And look, this is a player that's got mileage under the clock. Chelsea, Leipzig. You look at load spells at Spezia, load spells of Venezia, you know, like, like he's done the rounds. What kind of captain is he at Leeds? And actually, has Farker justified his decision to make him captain from his pure performance this season?
- [26:43]
Beren Cross
I think so. Ethan's had a really difficult season in that he's gone from last season playing every minute to having two serious knee injuries this year, which have kind of blown two holes in his campaign. So he's had to fight that on a personal level. But again, from the piece we wrote last night, I've learned that he's done a lot more behind the scenes than any of us really imagined. He went to the hierarchy at the club before the season started, as the captain always does. Generally with a leadership committee and they basically barter and they negotiate how the prospective bonus is going to be divvied out. And generally speaking, I think across football, as you'd expect in most walks of life, it's a meritocracy. So the more you play, the more influence you have on the season, into our collective success, the more money you're going to get. So what was quite striking with multiple people that I spoke to said that he actually went in and said, I want it shared completely equally. So you've got Joe Rod on, who started every single game, and James Deo, who has had one cameo appearance from the bench. They will both take an equal share of the promotion bonus they're going to get. And I think that kind of act and, and leading with your actions rather than your words has gone a long way in that dressing room. And again with the various people I've spoken to, they said that just something small like that. Yes, of course, over the season there are, I imagine, a lot of them probably forgotten that now and have already forgotten the gesture because it happened so long ago. But little things like that, just form and a player's opinion on him as a captain and then want to go into. Into battle with him and follow him. He's not one for rousing speeches. He leads quietly and with authority and leans on friendships and relationships. And maybe when the going gets tough, perhaps quietly asks for a bit more from some players. But another nice anecdote was that even in private conversations with people he trusts, like his dad or his agent or his friends in the dressing room, he might talk about bad performance. And let's just, for example, use Ilhamelier as an example in that he has had some mistakes this season. Hypothetically, he talked about Melee having a bad game. Melee's chucked in two for his house. Really, really bad. But in the same conversation, he will then, even in this private sphere, say, but remember, Ilan did this, this and this over the course of the season. And I've been told he never sheds that role. He's always thinking like a captain, even privately. He speaks in very balanced terms and tries to encourage even if people aren't involved in the conversation. He's very uplifting and looks for the good in what people have done this season. So I think he's led with. With small moments like that. And I think the more I've learned about Ampador, I can see more and more why Farker went with him as his next captain after the Lian Cooper era ended. Yeah.
- [29:09]
Ayo Akinwalere
How have they sort of dealt with the sort of turnaround of players. Archie Groveson went to Tottenham. Somerville also left Rutter. We've spoken about how did they deal with those exits and then fundamentally rebuild this squad? It sounds like there's a bit more harmony in this squad in a very strange way. But was that something they pinpointed? We want players that can actually connect together and bring us back together.
- [29:29]
Beren Cross
Yeah, absolutely. I think after Wembley, Phil was there. I think there was definite question marks that we had in the press back as to whether they would give him another go because we had set the bar to a high for this squad and felt that they underachieved in the end. And like Phil said, The 49ers felt that it was a very, very sort of small 5% that was missing, so it didn't feel the need to rip it all up and start again. So the fact that Farker then came out and said, look, I know what needs to change here. We've got an attitude problem in the dressing room. There were several players who were heard to be openly discussing about, you know, they were going to get moves, basically, whether Leeds got promoted or not. A lot of players in that dressing room, whether they moved in the end or not, without pointing too many fingers, they kind of expected that they would get moves and I don't think that sat too well with a lot of the hierarchy as well, and that there was just some players whose attitude was in question. And so Farker wanted to root that out and, and change it, really. And as you'll see, you know, the fact you've got Joe Rod on, Alex Cairns, Joe Rothwell, Jaden Bogle, really solid, proper, seasoned pros who have got promotions on their cvs in some cases. And I think the recruitment did look for character above anything else there. Resale value was ignored, development curves were ignored. It was a case of bringing in good characters who were good enough to get leads promoted here and now, regardless of what was coming down the line for them. So I think definitely recruitment of characters was a big, big thing for them.
- [30:42]
Ayo Akinwalere
Phil, I don't want to take it back to Bielsa, but I'm just thinking about two players to let this squad. Melie, we've spoken about Patrick Bamford, a player that at one point we're looking at as a next big England hopeful. I know he hasn't had much game time, I know he's had a lot of injuries, but. But what does the future. Where does the future lie for those kind of players? Is this. Are these players that are going to follow Leeds into this sort of new year in the Premier League.
- [31:05]
Phil Hay
Melia, I struggle to see being first choice at Leeds again. I might be wrong, but I think the way in which it's happened this season, him dropping out the team on the back of kind of two or three years of downward spiral for him makes you think that he needs a fresh start. Makes you think that Leeds need to go after a new first choice goalkeeper. I'd be really surprised if, if they don't. I feel like he's a lot of appearances behind him. Melee for quite a young guy. He's played an awful lot for Leeds and a lot in the Premier League. But I feel a little bit like he, he is, he is done with Bamford. I mean it's been a struggle for Bamford perennially really from kind of to the back end of 20, 21 onwards to stay fit enough to, to get a run in the team. It's. Everything has just been punctuated by injuries here, here and there. Here thing I'm right in saying has a year left. I struggle to see him playing a huge amount in the Premier League. Given that he hasn't played much in the championship for, or a huge amount in the Championship for a while, I think Leeds will. Leeds will definitely or surely be looking to, to add players up front. So a move for him would make sense from, from my point of view. But I think Meli is probably that. I mean Bamford now is into his. In his 30s. Meli is probably the one much more in need of a fresh start and a clean slate.
- [32:19]
Beren Cross
Yeah, completely. I think it's. There's obviously a lot of sentiment tied up in those players and regardless of their flaws and the difficulties they've had, they, they, they were two key parts of that Bielsa team and they will always have that place in Leeds history. And I'm sure in the years to come when more recent problems have maybe been forgotten though the good times will be remembered. But yeah, I think clearly Melee, he definitely won't start for Leeds again, I don't think. And Bamford, he. He's had some decent cameos but. But I think at this stage with one year to go, going up into the Premier League with looking to strengthen that squad, they're going to have Joel Pirro at least there who is probably going to be a second choice you would imagine if they are going to have a real go at trying to stay up. And I think Bamford is not going to spend another year of his, of his, of his 30s sitting on the bench and barely getting off it for Leeds.
- [33:03]
Ayo Akinwalere
Yeah, for sure. And just a quick one on Harry Gray, brother of Archie Gray. And the Gray bloodline runs and flows through Leeds United. I mean, that. That's another little special moment, isn't it? And probably someone to keep an eye out for next season as well.
- [33:18]
Beren Cross
Yeah. I mean, ironically, in terms of talking about Bamford, I mean, again, we did a Harry Gray piece start of March, and again you hear, I mean, Phil will talk more about this as well because he spoke to Eddie over many years about both Archie and Harry coming through. But as I've spoken to more and more people and heard about these stories, it's almost like myths and legends about these two and what they've done coming through the ranks and how Harry would score, you know, nine, ten goals against, against some of the best young defenders in the country and he's embarrassing them as a striker. And some really compelling quotes. I mean, Aaron Lennon came in last season and did some youth work with the under 18s last year. And I spoke to another coach who was repeating what Aaron Lennon had said. And Aaron Lennon has played with the likes of Berbatov Keane, Modric Bale. He's played with some of the best players, some of the best strikers in world football. And he came in off one training session with Harry Gray and said, he has got the best left foot I've ever seen. I mean, that is mind blowing. That is mind blowing praise. So in terms of talking about Bamford and his chances, I mean, based on the way the best young footballers in the world progress at 7, Harry Gray's gonna be 17 next season. In theory, if he's going to be as good as everyone thinks he's going to be, he's gonna be good enough to come off the bench in the Premier League next season at 17. I mean, if he is going to be that good, that is the kind of curve these young players tend to be on. So he is very, very exciting prospect. And I think the big worry Leeds fans have and probably now allayed because they've got promoted, is that he follows Archie out the door. But I think in getting promoted, it should now mean they can get a decent three, four, five years out of him.
- [34:44]
Phil Hay
All being well, the grey bloodline is ridiculously strong and shows no sign of ending either. I forget which piece it was that I was writing, but I'd gone over to their Uncle Eddie's house near Harriet to interview him for something that I was putting together. And we were just sitting, having a coffee to begin. And I said to him, what are we doing at the weekend? They said, I went to watch one of my nephews playing. I think it was against Bolton for Leeds Academy. So I said, oh, how did he get on? And he said, oh, I scored eight goals. I said, eight goals. He said, oh, he does that all the time. Honestly, every game it's four here, five here, six here. And the thing is, when he went away and checked it out, it was actually true. And that's pretty much how it was going. And I mean his brother Archie, elder brother Archie is, you know, quality, quality footballer as well, loads of talent there. But people have always said quietly, Harry might actually go further than him. And I think he definitely, I mean everyone you speak to who's seen Harry and knows him well says this kid, if he, if he fulfills his potential is going to be super big. And it's a worth, it's a name worth remembering.
- [35:58]
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- [37:14]
Ayo Akinwalere
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Acamoler. All right, let's move on to Leeds heading into the Premier League because I wonder what lessons they've Learned from the 202223 season. How do they stay up? This time is the big one Baron. Last time Leeds went up in 2020, they ended a 16 year absence from the division. They lasted for three seasons before being relegated in 2023. In their first season back they finished 9th, 9th. It's going to be hard to replicate that because we've spoken about the disparity between teams that come up and where the Premier League is right now. Let's not curse it too early but can Leeds at least make a good go of it?
- [37:58]
Beren Cross
I would certainly like to think so. Certainly for my own, my own mental health and sanity. I would like to think we've got a chance of, of making a come in next season because it's going to be quite miserable Otherwise. You mentioned 2021 there. I think you know that, that you know Phil will say that was, was one of the best seasons. I mean certainly that the high watermark of Leeds for since the Champions League days. I mean finishing ninth in the Premier League was just absolutely outstanding and again the stars aligned there and there's certainly an argument to say that that Leeds team did perform better with no crowds which you can draw your own conclusions from that. But that was a phenomenal year of football. Again Bamford. 17 Premier League goals, England cap at the end of it. Yeah, I think it would be a virgin, a miracle for them to finish ninth next season. But I think ultimately without putting too much at his door on his own, clearly bringing in Jesse Marsh was, was a massive, massive misjudgment from the club. I mean it was going to be hard for anybody to follow Bielsa but ultimately Marsch, he won. I remember he won away Anfield before the World cup break in that 2022, 23 season when they went down. And ultimately that probably saved his job. And at that point I think a lot of us were ready to say look, you've got the World cup break here. It is the perfect time to get a new manager and they've got six weeks to prepare like another pre season to go again. And ultimately he got two wins there at that point moment before the World cup and it basically saved his job. And again without pointing all the fingers at him that that really did kind of the die was cast at that point on, on their fate and the end of the season was a mess with, with various managers coming in. So getting the right manager with that spark or somebody else is going to be absolutely pivotal in terms of extracting the maximum value from, from a squad that is going to have a ceiling on it no matter how much you spend. There's some.
- [39:34]
Ayo Akinwalere
Well I Guess it's about stability there, Phil, isn't it? You think about Samuel Adage, think about Jesse March coming in and you know, back to that debate as whether or not Farker stays coach or manager of this team next season. But also, you know, it's fair to say that it feels a bit more calm at Leeds now than it was the last time out in the Premier League.
- [39:52]
Phil Hay
Yeah, it does. I mean, I think another lesson that they'll learn from, from the last experience of being there was the cost of the failure to change the squad ambitiously enough or quickly enough. They were almost like unbelievably good in that first season under Bielsa in a way that we sort of quietly hoped for because they were playing such, you know, the football was next level in the championship and you did hope that it was going to translate well. But I think it went beyond what any of us were anticipating. But they pushed that squad too far. And you'll find quotes from Radrozani after Bielsa Sakin saying that in his last summer as coach, he said, you know, you either need to change me as coach or you need to change the entire squad. Squad, because it isn't going to go too much further. And kind of neither of those warnings were heeded, in part because they wanted to keep Biels, in part because they just did not have the money to, you know, to push that squad on to the next level. There were obvious limits under the last board and we'll see what the limits are under this board once the transfer window or the transfer business starts going. And yeah, of course there was friction between Biels and the board towards the end of his time as manager and subsequent appointments didn't work out. I mean, by the time we got to Havi GRACIA and beyond 20, 22, 23, the whole thing had become desperate, you know, ending up with Hail Mary to Allardyce for the the last four games. But the recruitment, recruitment will be essential. It will be absolutely key. And if they get that right and if they've got the money to get it right, which is probably the bigger point to make, then they could have a fighting chance. If they get that wrong, then there's a high risk that they sink again quickly because I'm not sure the squad as it stands fares well without major additions.
- [41:31]
Ayo Akinwalere
That's what I was going to say. How much work do you think they need to do, Phil? Because we were also looking at PSR as well. Leeds have spent a lot of money to get here, so how much more Needs to be done.
- [41:41]
Phil Hay
Look again, I kind of feel like almost any club who go up are going to have a collection of players who fall into that gray area of being easily good enough for the championship or too good enough for the championship, but not necessarily proven for the Premier League. I think Ampadu falls into that category, although I genuinely think that, that he can get better from here and will be an asset for them. I think Tanaka has been one of my favorite players this season. Again, will, will be an asset. I think you've got others like Rodon, Jin, Bogle who are going to have to prove that they're, they're good enough. And I think there will be, as you know, very, very good professionals. They've been outstanding this season, but that question mark is always going to be there until the games get going and until we find out what they're made of. When it's Liverpool, Manchester City, Arsenal rather than the teams who they've been playing. There is no getting away from the fact that the disparity between the Premier League and the Championship is huge. But it also seems to be getting so much wider between the strongest championship sides and the teams below. You know, you've got three who are kind of knocking on the door of 100 points again this season. So I think again, how much can they spend? How much can they invest? You know, the Championship is a money pit and the 49ers will burn through a lot of cash in that division because there's, there's no option. And it wouldn't surprise me at all if, you know, at boardroom level the idea of some outside investment was seen as beneficial. Just to help out with that. I mean, they said they expected to be in charge of Leeds for a long time, the 49ers, but two championship years were not part of the master plan or the blueprint. And considering that Red Bull are on board in a sort of minority capacity.
- [43:19]
Ayo Akinwalere
Yeah, I ask about that. Leeds aren't a Red Bull club though. It's just a minority stake.
- [43:23]
Phil Hay
A minority stake and club sponsor as well. So on the front of the shirts. But I am interested to see in a broader sense how the ownership structure changes. But I think really does need to happen is the redevelopment of Elland Road that has been spoken about now for best part of five or six years. It's crying out for an upgrade. As much as it will be sad to see the old rough and ready ground go and all the noises again. Bering can probably add a bit more meat to the, to my bones here, but all the noises are that the 49ers plan to push the button now that they've. They've been promoted again will not be cheap and I would imagine will require some serious loan funding from somewhere. But it's so much easier to do when you're in the Premier League and now impossible to do when you don't have that income.
- [44:06]
Ayo Akinwalere
What are the whispers on that, Beren?
- [44:08]
Beren Cross
Yeah, I think, I mean, actually, as we speak tomorrow, there'll be a meeting of a Leeds City Council where they will actually talk about the very sort of early preliminary agreements that Leeds and the council have in terms of agreeing, how they can collaborate on this thing and sort of put it into writing. But ultimately planning an application is expected to go in, if not before the summer, then before the end of the summer. And obviously spades will be in the ground shortly after that. So obviously several years until it's finished. But very much pro. I mean, mean, the Premier League is like for so many clubs has been sort of waiting as this sort of checkpoint that they need to get through and they can then sort of hit the, the green button on a lot of these plans. So, yeah, I would imagine they want spades in the ground, I'd say before the autumn, maybe, if it depends how many sort of opposition, how much opposition they get from the local, the local sort of residents. But I would think, yeah, I think everybody knows it needs to happen. I think that the city knows it needs to happen. It's going to totally improve the economy and it's going to unleash the football club. So I think, I think, yeah, it will happen sooner than, rather than.
- [45:06]
Ayo Akinwalere
Yeah, Something many fans don't like talking about is finances and seeing your club as a, as a business baron, you know. Leeds have also announced a 14 ticket price increase for the 20, 25, 26 season. A lot of expectations then for next season. But how has that gone down with the fans? Because you're having to pay more to go see your favorite team once again. But then how do you develop this team? How do you develop this brand without more money coming into the club?
- [45:32]
Beren Cross
I think it's fair to say it's been mixed. Like with most things, I think social media is never going to give a fair barometer for things. There's certainly a lot of outrage for those fans that have been hit with the full 14% rise, but that, that's not a blanket rise. So I think there's, there's been a lot of disparity between these season ticket prices over the years and Phil remember better than me. But I think there was a 20 year season ticket, if that's right, Phil, that, that people paid.
- [45:54]
Phil Hay
Yeah. Several thousand pounds this year, I think.
- [45:56]
Beren Cross
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a lot of those people run sort of the older prices basically and I now have to sort of catch up with the more recent season ticket holders. So there's been big jumps in that regard. But I think most people still see it as fairly good value. And some people have only been hit by maybe a 1 or 2% rise. And I think again maybe the more right minded sort of thinking people can kind of see that if they want leads to go forward. As we've just said, it is a massive leap they've got to take. They unfortunately do need to shoulder their part of the burden in terms of pushing more money into it if they want to see it move forward. Forward.
- [46:26]
Ayo Akinwalere
Okay, quick one. And this actually I'll open it up to both of you really is that, you know, you've got Leicester, you've got obviously Ipswich and you've got Southampton coming down now. The three teams going up now, Leeds, Burnley and whoever makes it through the playoffs. If we compare the teams coming down, the teams potentially going up. Are the teams going up better than the teams coming down? Because we talk about the disparity between the Premier League. I'm just trying to think who has a fighting chance here, Phil.
- [46:52]
Phil Hay
I think that all depends on who they sign and how they. How they fare tactically. It would be wrong to say, I think that the three at the moment are vastly stronger or indeed stronger at all than the clutcher three who went up last season. I don't think necessarily weaker either. But it feels like a very even ballpark. And if you, you know, if you've got your eyes open, you can see that that ballpark is nowhere near good enough to stay in the Premier League. Leeds will have to spend on this squad, there's no question. I think tactically the one criticism of Faka which is probably valid and has been aired quite a lot and which I wouldn't say is necessarily his strength is the ability to change games in game, you know, is to tweak tactics and to make an impression on games where Leeds are struggling or in trouble or losing that I think he's going to have to do an awful lot more of that in the Premier League because they aren't going to win anything like the number of games that they've been able to win this season. And they aren't going to be. Be. I don't think Realistically and especially dominant team in it in these 12 months coming up. So they can't afford to be light touch in the transfer market. But I do think the 49ers will know that because they were on the scene last time Leeds were relegated, they'll try to push the boat out as far as they can. I think it just remains to be seen how far that boat can go.
- [48:10]
Ayo Akinwalere
What do you think, Baron?
- [48:11]
Beren Cross
Yeah, I think tactically is going to be a big question film. It's a great point really about the tactical tweaks in that this team's been so dominant opponent that either A hasn't had to make tactile teeth because they've been in front or B, sort of sheer sort of quality of play on the pitch has kind of won games for him. So we haven't seen vastly different tactics from him. The substitutions sometimes are criminally late in the game. I mean in some of the games where they are losing or even drawing and they need a winner. He's waiting until the 75th, 70th minute for changes and it's just far too late when, when the second half is clearly sagging and not going the way they want it to. So they, they are two definite pinch points that, that people can point at. At far cry and his management. But tactically I think. I think I'm very much up for Leeds becoming a team that is a low block sitting grind out, try and nick a 1 nil here and there, bring in some physically oppressive players. Really just beat the opposition really. Because I think if they come forward, I think I'm getting that clipped. I think that's. I am all for a thoroughly boring season if it means they stay in the Premier League and establish themselves. I think you need to, you need to get through those first couple of years, don't you wait before you can. You kind of need to earn the right to play better football. I think we've seen it with Brighton and Brentford. They had a couple of years where they were finishing 17th in the table. You know, you had Brighton, had Glenn Murray up top. Brenford were basically knocking the ball up to Ivan Toney with long balls and playing off. Off second balls with him. So I, I'm very much up for. I don't know if Farker wants to play it that way, but he's certainly not going to get to 60% possession in the Premier League next season, which is, which is the way he's won games in the Championship.
- [49:41]
Phil Hay
The sweet spot is quite hard to find though because I mean, you only have to look at Southampton for an example of a club who've kind of died on the hill of ideology or philosophy, you know.
- [49:51]
Ayo Akinwalere
Yeah, I was thinking about the company as well.
- [49:53]
Phil Hay
So sticking with him for. For so long. For what it's worth with Ipswich, I think they've been a little bit unlucky to. To. To remain on the number of points that they've got. I think there'll be plenty of games when McKenna looks back that he'll regret that they could have taken more from and were in a position to. But Leicester at the opposite extreme to Southampton in that the gear changes from Marescua to Steve Cooper to Van Nistelroi just kind of make no sense and have left them floundering as well. So you have to find the middle ground. But I do think given that staying up in season one is just paramount, there has to be a degree of pragmatism in what you do and you have to make sure that you give yourself a go.
- [50:33]
Ayo Akinwalere
Yeah. Honestly, gents, that's been thoroughly enjoyable. Leeds Burnley, welcome back to the Premier League. And also Phil, welcome back to Leeds for the time being. Appreciate your time as well. Thank you guys for listening. We'll be back soon.
- [50:47]
Beren Cross
Soon.
- [50:49]
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