Are Liverpool running out of steam?

Summary

The Athletic FC Podcast Summary: "Are Liverpool Running Out of Steam?"

Episode Information

• Title: Are Liverpool Running Out of Steam?
• Host: Ayo Akinwolere
• Guests: Si Hughes, Andy Jones, Phil Hay
• Release Date: March 18, 2025
• Podcast: The Athletic FC Podcast by The Athletic

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Introduction: A Disappointing Week for Liverpool

The episode opens with host Ayo Akinwolere addressing Liverpool's recent struggles. Just days after their Champions League exit against PSG, Liverpool faced another setback with a defeat at Wembley against Newcastle in the League Cup Final. This double disappointment sets the stage for an in-depth discussion on whether Liverpool is losing momentum.

Liverpool's Performance: Worst in a Major Final This Century

Si Hughes and Andy Jones, both Athletic's Liverpool writers, join the conversation with Phil Hay to dissect Liverpool's recent performances.

• Si Hughes (02:27): "Liverpool don't really have the squad depth to go hard... several competitions at once. It sort of feels like it's going that way at the moment."

• Andy Jones (02:30): "We're done."

James Pearce from The Athletic had previously labeled Liverpool's League Cup Final performance against Newcastle as the club's worst in a major final this century. Si Hughes concurs, highlighting the absence of squad depth and the resulting tiredness that plagued the team.

Physicality and Midfield Challenges

The discussion turns to Newcastle's physical dominance, particularly in the midfield.

• Andy Jones (04:38): "100% yeah. Newcastle came into it with a lot of the history behind... but ultimately Liverpool fall into the trap of... Newcastle's physical game."

• Phil Hay (08:43): "There are junctures where that can happen and I understand the criticism of the performance."

The guests elaborate on how Newcastle's intensity and physicality overpowered Liverpool, compounded by a congested fixture schedule that left Liverpool fatigued.

Tactical Breakdown by Michael Cox

Michael Cox, from The Athletic Football Tactics podcast, offers a tactical analysis of Liverpool's struggles.

• Michael Cox (07:03): "Liverpool looks overrun. A little bit lacking in legs but... undermanned in that zone."

Cox criticizes Arne Slot for not adapting his system against different opponents, noting that Liverpool's inability to rotate effectively contributed to their downfall in both the Champions League and League Cup Final.

Squad Depth and Reliance on Salah

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on Liverpool's reliance on Mohamed Salah and the lack of contributions from other key players.

• Ayo Akimolere (08:19): "Has Salah become too relied upon?"

• Andy Jones (14:33): "If it's not Salah, then it's not going to be anyone."

Phil Hay echoes these sentiments, emphasizing the pressing need for more goal-scoring options and questioning the effectiveness of new signings like Federico Chiesa.

• Phil Hay (22:31): "Transfer market hasn't really done anything for Armando Slot. He's been running on existing players."

Management Under Arne Slot: Trust and Tactical Decisions

The conversation delves into Arne Slot’s management style and tactical decisions.

• Andy Jones (17:35): "Slot made no changes in his starting 11 between the PSG and the Newcastle games other than the enforced change because of Trent Alexander-Arnold's injury."

• Phil Hay (22:06): "Starting 11 Chiesa hasn't really worked though, has it?"

The guests critique Slot's reluctance to rotate the squad and his dependency on a core group of players, which has led to predictability and vulnerability against physically dominant teams like Newcastle.

Potential Summer Changes and Future Outlook

Looking ahead, the panel discusses the possible implications for Liverpool's future, including potential departures and the pressing need for new signings to bolster the squad.

• Si Hughes (28:32): "Endo plus who can also start big games... there's a lot of work for Richard Hughes to do."

• Phil Hay (37:10): "Liverpool might start kind of finding themselves answering for the quiet year that they've had because the squad does need additions."

The uncertainty surrounding key players such as Virgil van Dijk, Trent Alexander-Arnold, and Salah adds to the concern about Liverpool’s stability and competitiveness in the coming seasons.

Maintaining the Lead: Positivity Amidst Challenges

Despite recent setbacks, Andy Jones and Si Hughes remain cautiously optimistic about Liverpool's position in the Premier League.

• Andy Jones (34:32): "Liverpool are better than all of the teams that they're going to be playing in the next few games."

• Si Hughes (36:53): "If Liverpool win the league, no matter the circumstances... they will."

Phil Hay advises that maintaining focus and resetting after the international break will be crucial for Liverpool to preserve their 12-point lead in the league.

• Phil Hay (37:10): "It's probably the gap as it is at the moment is just too big."

Conclusion: Balancing Realism and Optimism

The episode concludes with a balanced perspective on Liverpool's current state. While acknowledging the legitimate concerns regarding squad depth, tactical rigidity, and overreliance on key players, the panel also highlights Liverpool's formidable position in the league. The overarching sentiment is one of cautious optimism, with an understanding that strategic adjustments and effective management will be key to sustaining success.

• Andy Jones (36:25): "We'll come Southfield and we'll cause problems."

• Si Hughes (31:22): "Let the good times roll."

Ayo Akimolere wraps up the episode by emphasizing the importance of perspective and resilience for Liverpool as they navigate the remainder of the season.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Si Hughes (02:27): "Liverpool don't really have the squad depth to go hard... several competitions at once."
• Andy Jones (04:38): "100% yeah. Newcastle came into it with a lot of the history behind..."
• Michael Cox (07:03): "Liverpool looks overrun. A little bit lacking in legs but... undermanned in that zone."
• Phil Hay (22:31): "Transfer market hasn't really done anything for Armando Slot."
• Andy Jones (14:33): "If it's not Salah, then it's not going to be anyone."
• Phil Hay (37:10): "It's probably the gap as it is at the moment is just too big."

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This detailed summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from "Are Liverpool Running Out of Steam?" The podcast provides a comprehensive analysis of Liverpool's current challenges, tactical shortcomings, and future prospects, making it an insightful listen for both fans and football enthusiasts.

Transcript

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[Host]

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[Andy Jones]

Bee with no hints, Planning a trip.

[Host]

To one of the 52 best places to go, getting to the bottom of.

[Phil Hay]

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[Phil Hay]

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[Andy Jones]

The Athletic FC.

[Host]

Podcast Network welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. It's been a disappointing week for Liverpool. Just days after the Champions League exit at the hands of PSG came a hammer blow at Wembley.

[Si Hughes]

Fermento lifted it in and Murphy is backstick.

[Andy Jones]

No man believing.

[Host]

After that abject display in the League Cup Final defeat against Newcastle, we're asking have Liverpool run out of steam with us today. We have the Athletics Liverpool writers Si Hughes and Andy Jones, plus Phil Hay is with us as well. Right Si. Our colleague James Pearce called Liverpool's display versus Newcastle the club's worst performance in a major final this century. What are your thoughts? Do you agree?

[Si Hughes]

Yes, very simple.

[Host]

All right, send the podcast now.

[Andy Jones]

We're done.

[Si Hughes]

I do agree with it. Yeah, we had a little bit of a chat about this last night and obviously Liverpool lost to Seville or to Sevilla in the 2016 Europa League final and the second half performance in that game was was very disappointing. But I think there's some mitigation there in that. That was a much Less functional team. It was right at the beginning of the Jurgen Klopp era. And they were ultimately just beaten by a more experienced team in that competition. Obviously the circumstance around this game was very different. Liverpool were favourites obviously. Newcastle haven't won a trophy of any kind for such a long time. And the performance was. It was embarrassing. I've got to say. I thought it was an embarrassing performance from Liverpool. Just. No, I don't think anybody came out of it particularly well. You know the players, the manager, sporting director. The people above him. There's a lot of people you could sort of look at I think for that performance. And it's not just the players. I'm sure we're going to get into it shortly. But you know it was a very tired performance. And I just. I thought all season long really. Liverpool don't really have the squad depth to go hard at. You know. Several competitions at once. And it sort of feels. Feels like it's going that way at the moment.

[Host]

Okay. Fair enough. Well, there was some interesting comments from Arna Slot after the game. Listen to this.

[Michael Cox]

We were outplayed in their style.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael Cox]

That is what you can call outplayed.

[Andy Jones]

Yeah.

[Michael Cox]

They won more jewels than us. Is that what you mean? Outwork? Is that an outworking or are they just. Is that their. One of their biggest qualities to play so much aerial duels and to win these physique duels. Outplayed for me is if you never don't need. Don't touch the ball. And they play through you every single time you try to press them. And every time you're too late. That is for me outplayed. But I agree with you if you say that they deserved to win because the game went in the way they wanted it to go.

[Si Hughes]

Yeah.

[Host]

Andy. The physicality was interesting, wasn't it? Especially in the midfield. You look at Joe Linton sort of personifying the solidity of Newcastle and the intensity of Newcastle. Do you buy that? Do you think they were outplayed physically?

[Andy Jones]

100% yeah. That was where sort of the game was when I lost I think. And it was very clear from sort of the opening minutes I thought that. I know it sounds really sort of Sunday league but one team just seemed to want it more. And obviously Newcastle came into it with a lot of the history behind. You know. Not not having won a trophy for so many years. But you know those things shouldn't really play a part in. Ultimately it's a cup final. So you should be up for it. Newcastle Midfielder caused Liverpool problems in the 3.3draw in December. I think it was that day that sort of again you know sort of was better than Liverpool in midfield. And Liverpool really struggled to. To cope with sort of the intensity of things. And it was very very similar again. And ultimately then Liverpool fall into the trap of. Of sort of allowing or playing into Newcastle's physical game if you like. I mean the amount of aimless balls that Liverpool played forward. Particularly in that first half where you know you. You Liverpool's forward isn't exactly the most robust and isn't going to win many headers. They're definitely not going to win many headers when the ball's directed at Dan Bain you know. For example. And. And then on the other side of the pitch when the ball was in Liverpool's half. Newcastle were faced at everything. They were faced to the second balls. They won the jewels. You know. They were. They were good at winning free kicks but also good at not giving away free kicks. Newcastle and in terms of they knew the fine line physically of how much they can put in and Liverpool just couldn't cope with it. And you know it is at the end of a really you know an intense run for Liverpool. And I don't think they've looked the same since that sort of five games in 15 days that they had in the league. Sort of since then it's been the PSG legs. And. And even though you know the intensity was probably there against PSG and you know in the. In the Champions League second leg they weren't able to maintain it into extra time. And that's when PSG sort of took over the game. And Liverpool in the end were probably happy for the penalties by that point. But I think it sort of fed into into that game on Sunday as well is that ultimately Liverpool didn't look anywhere near ready for the physical challenge that Newcastle were going to pose. And that's what played out in the game.

[Si Hughes]

Trippier with drift in goes blind. It's the boy from Blythe.

[Host]

What a head.

[Si Hughes]

It's Cyril like.

[Andy Jones]

Was there a man for whom it.

[Si Hughes]

Was so obviously written?

[Host]

Time to hear from our tactics writer Michael Cox on how Newcastle and PSG were able to nullify Liverpool.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Hello Michael Cox here from the Athletic Football Tactics podcast. I was at Anfield on Tuesday and Wembley on Sunday for Liverpool's two disappointing performances against PSG and Newcastle respectively. And the clear issue for me was the centre of midfield. Liverpool looks overrun. A little bit lacking in legs but I thought also just undermanned in that zone. And I've been surprised that Arne Slot hasn't returned to the system he used against Manchester City in a very very good performance and a comfortable win earlier this month where he used Curtis Jones and Dominik Szoboszlai at the top of the midfield almost as third and fourth midfielders with Gravenberg and Mac Allister sitting deep. That worked really effectively against City. Okay. A different type of opposition to PSG and Newcastle but I thought it just gave Liverpool extra manpower in that zone. And especially with the fact that Nunez isn't performing well, Jota's not performing well, Cody Gakpo just coming back from injury. It's not like any of these centre forwards are difficult to leave out. At the moment that seems like an obvious option for Liverpool and I'm surprised that Slot hasn't turned to that system against either PSG or or Newcastle.

[Host]

We're going to talk about squad depth a little later on Phil. But you know Liverpool were restricted to just two shots on target in 120 minutes versus Liverpool. And then look at the PSG matches. Three shots on target versus PSG last week. And you've got to also remember that this is Arnold Slot's first season so I'll definitely give him that. But where do you think it fell by the wayside for Liverpool at that cup final? Is it just mental fatigue as well?

[Phil Hay]

It'll be a combination of all of that. There is a reason why no club in England has ever done the quadruple of the Premier League, the Champions League, the FA cup and the League Cup. And it's because there's always a game or the odd game here and there that either finds you out or finds you fatigued or finds you flagging. You know. And there are junctures where that can happen and I understand the criticism of the performance. But PSG twice in a week including extra time last Tuesday, league game in between, which you'd have expected to be more simple in Southampton than it was and then Wembley. It's not necessarily the optimal scenario and you can't disregard either the fact that Newcastle were very much on it on Sunday. I think it's worth reiterating and as you said, we will talk more about this but just how little Liverpool have done recruitment wise. You know they've spent £10 million or thereabouts on Federico Chiesa and that's pretty much it. Since Slot has come in. I was looking back at his record. His goal yesterday was basically his first of. No. I know he had that last minute finish against Accrington in the FA cup, but that was neither here nor there. You know, there hasn't been any real impact from him. So truth be told, the transfer market hasn't really done anything for Armor slot. He's been running on existing players and some of them are very, very high class, some of the best in Europe, best in the world like Salah. But it just felt a little bit like this week was a step too far for them. And okay, it was fine margins against PSG with it being penalty shootout in the end, but PSG with a bit of team over the two legs. And I think if you go back and watch extra time at Anfield and look for the team who had more vibrancy as that went on, who had more in the legs, who were going forward with a bit more intent, it wasn't Liverpool. So all in all, I mean, if Slot nails the Premier League title, which he's going to do, it's a big green tick for him in his first season. I don't think anybody even expected that of him. But I imagine for the next few days the feeling is going to be, you know, four or five weeks ago we had four trophies in front of us, suddenly we're down to one and that's going to sting.

[Si Hughes]

Liverpool got into this position of opportunity in the Premier League because Slot spent the first half of the season largely playing the same team. You know, there was changes here and there in the midfield, but by and large it was, it was the same sort of 14, 15 players that he used and that was in the Champions League as well. So Liverpool got into a great position in the Champions League group stage and then obviously in the Premier League as well. But I think Liverpool are now dealing with the consequences of that. You know, it's put them in a great position in both competitions. But later on in the season when you know, suddenly the pressure's really on, it becomes harder to win football matches, particularly, you know, pressure matches. Some of the players have been struggling really. You know, the Ryan Gravenberg first half of the season was outstanding. Looks tired. Alexis McCalla said the same. The players do look tired. So I think maybe if Slotted had an extra option or two in certain areas early in the season, maybe he might have rotated it a little bit more without any detrimental effects. So I think that's really where Liverpool are at, really. I always thought they had a chance in one or two of the competitions this season. I didn't think they'd do quite as well in the Premier League. They've exceeded expectation, but they've also Taken advantage of course of other teams that who ordinarily would be doing better not doing so well. That does happen. That can happen. You can only win the league that's in front of you. You know. That's why Leicester. Leicester won the league. Because a lot of the better teams with bigger money, you know, didn't. Weren't able to. We're in transition that season really. So Liverpool have done fantastically well to position themselves at the top of the league. 12 points ahead. And I mean I do think what's worth remembering is obviously they did win the league cup or the Carabao cup last season. Nobody remembers it really. Is that unfair? Is that fair Point. It's the last trophy of Klopp. It was won in really dramatic circumstances. Improbable circumstances. But I think history will remember it as a great cup win. But because they fell away in the league because it ended in disappointed and disappointment the way it did. It's not something that people will be talking about that fondly for many, many years. If they win the league, no matter the circumstance behind it, they will. So the achievements of getting them in slot, getting them into that position, it's major. It's major. But I think you can still be very disappointed by how Liverpool played in Siffords. They were awful against Newcastle. Newcastle should actually I think feel a bit frustrated they didn't win by a bigger scoreline because Liverpool were there to be taken. If Liverpool was six points ahead at the top of the Premier League, I'd be really, really worried at this stage because they do seem to be tiring. I think 12 points is probably a bit too much to ask at this stage for the teams that are trying to chase them because they have to be perfect themselves. But there's a lot to consider. I mean the one thing I will say is I think the top end of the pitch, you know it's been up to Salah to get them not out of a hole but to win certain games this season. I know he scored a lot of penalties but his performances quite often and goals. I've got Liverpool over the line. The real disappointment has been the other, you know, the other two players in those four positions. I think when Liverpool at the best ones, Jurgen Klopp, you know, on their day you could rely on Salah Sadio Mane, Roberto Firmino coming up with a big performance. And if one of those players played well, Liverpool would win the game. Now it's all on Salah.

[Host]

Yeah, that's the one. Andy. Is it all on Salah? Look, I mean Mohamed Salah has both failed to record a shot and creates a chance for Liverpool in a game in which he has started for only the third time this season. One of those was the first leg in the round of 16 against PSG. Is Salah overused? Are they too reliant on Salah? I mean it's, it's, it's a fair point. We've hailed him as this great player but he can't do everything for Liverpool, can he?

[Andy Jones]

No, I, I think we did the piece on it recently actually as well and, and sort of broke down the difference in the, the importance of him to, to the, to Liverpool compared to the importance of the, the most, the player who scored the most goals and assists for the other Premier League teams. And he was, he was, he was at the top of that list as well. I think it definitely is. But it, it's certainly not helping that basically every other forward Liverpool have got is probably out of form at the moment. You obviously have Cody Gakpo at times during the season. You know, he's got 16 goals so he's, he's clearly chipped in. And Diaz has been bright in moments, but still probably not as much as you would want him to be. They've also got the number nine problem which is becoming a bigger and bigger problem game by game if you like. And Nunes has always been that problem if you like of how do you solve them and you know, continues to be an unsolved and can have a moment and then go 10 games without a goal. But Diego Jota is, I mean at the moment looks a shadow of the player he's, he's looked in the past. He just looks so far off, you know, the levels that Liverpool fans know he can hit. And you wonder if is this a consequence of the number of injuries that he's had over time, you know, finally you know, catching up with him if you like and you know, kind of get back to those levels. So when you've got a lot of sort of issues with the players around you then, then Salah does become more important and you'd almost think has he has his importance even increased and reliance increased because he has been able to drag Liverpool out of the, the holes earlier in the season. For example, when he's, he's, he's pulled up, he pulled out the goal that wins the game and stuff like that is have they become too reliant to the players? The general salad will sort this for us. No problems, you know, we'll just get it to him and he'll be fine. But ultimately as well, like you know, the midfield has contributed the times this season as well, but they're struggling to do that at the moment as well. So it is all at the moment definitely becoming to if it's not Salah, then it's not going to be anyone.

[Ayo Akimolere]

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[Si Hughes]

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[Andy Jones]

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[Host]

Right, Andy, let's get into squad depth because slot made no changes in his starting 11 between the PSG and the Newcastle games other than the enforced change because of Trent Alexander Arnold's injury and only three changes for that win over Southampton before that. I mean, fair enough, he might trust his start in 11. But you look at players like Endo, we've spoken about Chiesa there. Surely these players deserve a bit more time on the field because a game like Southampton, for instance, it's Southampton. Where are they going? You know.

[Andy Jones]

Yeah, I mean it was interesting the Southampton game because the, the changes he made. So he brings in cases Jones and Costas Simicas, neither of which started him against psg. They were two of the people who came off at halftime. So that kind of points to the fact that he's not quite certain on on more players than you would think because I mean earlier in the season Simicas and Robertson were, were sort of rotating and he seemed to have more trust in Simicast than I think Jagen Clark probably ever did, you know, during his reign. And Curtis Jones was under who was, you know, frequently in the side and, and I'VE still been playing but sort of his performance against Southampton and his, you know, his, his performance against PST off the bench in the, in the second leg which was, I think it was really disappointing. Never you know, misses the penalty. But I think just his general play was, was pretty poor as well. So there is, there is becoming a little bit of a. I think Sai sort of alluded at the start of the podcast that there's sort of a group of players that he seems to trust at the minute. And the problem is that that group has sort of been reduced. Gakpo's injury I don't think has helped. I think for example Diaz's looks like he's been overplayed a little bit and does look just generally tired. It's. It's impossible to rely on Darwin Nunes because you don't know what you're going to get. And you know, Slot has had to call him out basically publicly about some of his appearances off the bench. Which is, you know, obviously not a good point for a player who's generally been a sub for you and then sort of like Endo is, you know, has been really good in that sort of enforcer role but just he's not a slot type of player to be, you know, start and you know, he's so different to Gravenberg for example in that number six role. And you probably look at like Harvey Elliott as someone who probably will feel a bit, you know, unfairly done and feel like he should have had more time on the pitch. So yeah it, but it is difficult and ultimately to go back to sort of the point, you know, Liverpool have, they didn't really plan for what they've had to endure over this. So for example, you know, you know they finish in the top eight of the Champions League and think they're going to get two midweeks off in February. No, the Everton game which was postponed gets rearranged and the Aston Villa game gets brought forward. So suddenly you don't, you don't know exactly how Liverpool would have planned it, but they would have been looking at it probably thinking when we can, you know, we've got a weak rest here for, for these players. And then they didn't because you know, they had to play them all because they were all big games. And then you think finishing top of the Champions League group you would like to think you're going to get an easier tight then I think Slot referred to them as the best team in Europe in the post match press conferences on Sunday. So they have had a Bit of, you know, been unlucky a little bit with the schedule ultimately and, and therefore he's. Because they're all big games and even bigger games than maybe they should have been. Because you would like to think that Liverpool as say would have got a, an easier or more favorable draw in that Champions League when he might have been able to rotate, he might have been able to win in the first leg and you know, all little things like that just haven't really gone in their favor and you know, away to Aston Villa is really tough fixed to, you can't rotate there and, and then again when he tries to do it against Southampton, that's two of the players he brings in then go off. So I think there is a little bit of a disconnect at the moment between sort of that first 11 that he really trusts but is almost now playing too much as you say that, you know, not making enough changes. But even when he did make them, you know, they, they were the players who sort of he had to bring off and bring the, you know, McAllister comes back on against Southampton. I can imagine he would have not wanted to use McAllister. So it's those types of things and, and you know, getting the game won. But Liverpool, it was still 2:1 until the 85th minute or something. So again, you know, it's not like the, in a comfortable position on 60 minutes and you can bring five players off and put five, you know, new players on. So it was all, all these little things have worked against Liverpool a little bit and, and you know, that hasn't allowed some of the squad players to play. But also, you know, as you mentioned Plymouth game for example, when those squad players, they get the chance, they didn't perform and then, so then it's kind of trust these players, you know, it's, it's all those things that have worked into it. So there's a lot, there's sort of a number of factors that work into it and ultimately it sort of led to, to a number of players looking knackered basically because they've, they've had so many big games and had to play them and keep playing them because that's who, who Slot wants in his team.

[Host]

Well, this is the one, Phil. Is it just a matter of trust? Because also this is a team he's inherited, right. So you can't say all those players are his. We obviously got Chiesa there who could potentially dep for Salah because I'm looking at Salah at 32 years old playing more minutes than many other players in the Premier League. I mean that, that, that's a lot to ask for him. Does he just have to trust his team or is he still trying to figure out what his team actually is? Beyond that.

[Phil Hay]

Starting 11 Chiesa hasn't really worked though, has it? I know he hasn't played much.

[Host]

Few goals though once or twice. I mean he shows a bit of movement.

[Andy Jones]

He has had the chance to win. He has a chance.

[Host]

That's what I'm thinking.

[Andy Jones]

I think it's 28 Premier League minutes he's played which.

[Phil Hay]

Yeah, he's not been used much. He's been injured as well, hasn't he? At £10 million when they sign Chies. I had him down in the newsletter as a pretty good deal that because it was like nothing ventured, nothing gained. It wasn't so much money that you were ever going to look back and say that was just ridiculous. Like why on earth did we waste that? It was worth the punt given his background and even though I think his career is tailing off, I think he's already gone through the real purple patch where he was at his absolute height. Unless it's coming back. Yeah, it was worth the go but I haven't seen enough of him because he hasn't played much to know whether he's tailor made for Slot. But Slot's own attitude towards him kind of makes you feel like you might not be and like Slot isn't completely sold. Whatever reason there is for that, it just isn't. It just isn't his go to. To man. And I think this is a thing you see when it comes down to the summer, I do think Liverpool will win the title. I think they'll get themselves there but they can't be as reserved this time around as they were in the summer. Just gone. Because the optics of it would be all wrong. Like I, I feel like they definitely lose Alexander Arnold if it's. It's as if the water's flowing to Real Madrid and that's the way it's. It's going to go with Salah and Van. Like I'm really not sure. It's. It's hard to tell but when I listen to them speak they, they're not really sounding, making it sound as if all of this is a charade and, and they will actually sign and it's just a bit of messing about. I could genuinely see them going as well depending on what's on the table. So you know, this is almost where Liverpool might start kind of finding themselves answering for the, the quiet year that they've had because the squad does need additions but. But before they even get to the point of making it deeper they potentially have to fill the gaps left by Alexander Arnold and Salah and van Dijk. And that's really difficult. It's expensive and it's going to make it quite a strenuous closed season I think. I mean they cannot have a window where say they lump on Zubamendi. Zubamendi says no and that's it. They've got to get the players that they go after. And you naturally think that slot doing the title in year one paves the way for a little bit of a dynasty or more to come. But I'm not sure it gets easier for him after this summer. I wonder if the opposite is true.

[Host]

I think you're right Phil. And you know within that rebuild to a certain degree I guess Andy reinforcements actually to add to that. You know, I'm thinking that midfield as well. I mean it's a very solid midfield but as we saw with Newcastle yesterday being out muscled as well in that respect. Gravenberg has played a lot of football. That guy needs a bit of a rest as well. He's a young lad, you know. I mean there's more to do there as well as well from where I'm standing.

[Andy Jones]

Yeah, definitely. It's dead weird the Liverpool squad because you can sort of, you can genuinely justify like half of them leaving. It's. It's so weird and it's such a weird thing to say about a tight winning team because you would think, you know, this is a team that you know could stick together for years but when you look at it and when you break it down there are, there are reasons or you know, sort of things you can, you can sort of suggest and the midfield is probably one of those areas, you know and those obviously, you know, for example is doing a really good job when he comes on but is he a long term solution? Do it. Liverpool need an upgrade so you know to basically get an Endo plus who can also start games and start big games because as you say Gravenberg hasn't played a lot of minute, hadn't played a lot of minutes in sort of the two seasons before he, you know this one because you know last season was he was a bit in and out with injuries and stuff and before that he was a Bayern Munich and barely got a kick. So you know this is a lot for him. This is, you know he wouldn't have experienced this before really at this high level. At this sort of quality in a role that is you know still somewhat unfamiliar to him and he's still learning it and still. So yeah I think the midfield, I mean ultimately Liverpool thought they needed an extra midfield at the start of the season. That's why they tried to buy Zebra Mendy. And yes they were surprised by Gavin Baker's emergence and and obviously you know he's been, he's been really good and really important for them and you know they've got a player there who you could play in Liverpool's midfield for the next eight, nine years but ultimately you also need to have players you can come in and get a. Jones was probably the best example of that where you know he's rotated with Sobers like you know first half the season and it's obviously sort of took that next step if you like and became a player that became undroppable for slot. But then Jones hasn't quite worked in that number eight role in the same way and at times Liverpool have looked pretty lost in midfield when Alexis Michalis has not been there. So there's become a reliance on those midfielders really the backups haven't really been able to stand up. I mean Elliott just hasn't really had a chance really but he's very different profile to like to suppose like for example in that number 10 role. And you wonder if he's quite what you know slots is exactly looking for in that role when he's. When he sort of favored Jones over him as well in terms of you know, bigger players, more physical players than Elliott. But yeah, I mean it raised a few concerns because it's not the first time I would say that Liverpool's midfield has sort of been overrun. Newcastle generally have been the ones to do it. As I said as I referenced earlier that that game back in December was, was the main one but you know ultimately Liverpool try and not get into those battles. That's why they've built a midfield more technically based than under. You know Klopp's midfield was a lot more workman, workman like and probably wouldn't have been bullied in the same way that that you know Liverpool's midfielders yesterday because you know you had the Wijnaldums, Henderson's Fabinhos, you were more you know robust more into the physical battle and then sort of you know McAllister and Gravenberg and so was like were more known for the technical aspect. So it's, it's, it is about squad building and it's maybe that's that's the type of play they need to add. So they've got that option.

[Host]

Yeah. This brings up some interesting points Simon, in terms of what this summer looks like for Liverpool because Phil also makes a really valid point when he says there's a chance that Van Dijk, Trent, Alexander, Arnold and Salah aren't here next season potentially. And we're even talking about trying to reshape this midfield to make it a little bit more physically durable. I mean Liverpool summer business could be really, really interesting on who they seem to bring in.

[Si Hughes]

Well, it feels like the end of something rather than the beginning of something. You know the. When I say the end of the cycle, you know a lot of the players that have served Liverpool well over a long period of time possibly coming towards an end. You know, they've obviously brought a goalkeeper in already to supplement Alison Becker. He's probably one of the few sellable assets who they could make some money on because obviously if they lose three players who are out of contract, they're saving money on wages but they're not getting money coming in from transfer fees. I know Liverpool have obviously done very well in the Champions League to win the number of games that they won and it's generated quite a lot of revenue already. But getting knocked out by PSG is not helpful for the summer plans really because obviously I think Liverpool certainly at the back end of the group stages would have envisaged at least getting to the quarterfinals and then that creates more revenue and then that gives them more money to put into the pot to sign players. So there's a big balance in that going on financially. You know, I actually thought on Sunday Andy Robertson had a good first half for Liverpool. He was probably one of Liverpool's better players in terms of being up to speed with what was going on around him. But he hasn't had a great season. There's a lot of conversation about his future. Phil obviously mentioned Virgil van Dijk. Ultimately no deal's been announced, does it? It's a big concern. I don't think Liverpool can replace him really. I think he is irreplaceable. I think he's still got a few years to go and you can go right through the team really. There's a few, there's a few question marks. I actually think that the three centre midfielders who are probably getting a lot of criticism because. Well, not criticism but they've had a lot of focus on them because the way they got over around I think they're probably the three sort of certainties at Liverpool at the moment they just need extra people around them to ensure that they maybe don't play quite so many minutes. So yeah, I think is going to be a big summer change. I think right across the pitch. I think there probably has to be, you know, there's a few other players who, whose contracts are coming up in the next 18 months as well. Canate being one he still hasn't renewed. So there's a lot of work for Richard Hughes to do. But hey, let's let the good times roll is what I was going to say.

[Phil Hay]

Right.

[Andy Jones]

We were in the pits yesterday. Where are we now?

[Host]

It can't be. This is so fumble. About three weeks ago we were talking about a quadruple. Now we're talking. Let the good times roll.

[Si Hughes]

Yeah. Will somebody, will somebody turn the lights off please?

[Host]

Well let's, let's try put some perspective on the season and bring Salma back down in the next bit. Come on, let's do it.

[Si Hughes]

This is the Athletic FC podcast with.

[Ayo Akimolere]

IO Akamalar.

[Si Hughes]

Arnold Salah running from onside.

[Host]

Away from Guardiol and set for Sors line.

[Andy Jones]

Who's stopping them?

[Host]

It's been a bad week for Liverpool, Simon. But you know at the beginning of the season if, if someone had told Liverpool fans that have a brand new manager had made very few changes and having to rebuild from their previous manager Jurgen Klopp and saying Liverpool are what, 12 points at the top of the Premier League, you'd have beaten the handoff, right? I mean come on this is good news 100%.

[Si Hughes]

I mean slot has overachieved really in his first season certainly in the league. I don't think anybody equally envisaged the drop off. Manchester City have had some of the struggles that Arsenal have had. I think it sort of felt like the start of the season. You know this is Arsenal's season. But when, when they didn't go and rectify the clear sort of issues they have in their squad over the summer I thought well maybe you know, maybe they might not be quite as strong as people are thinking. Liverpool really set off like a train. I know they had the disappointment of losing to Nottingham Forest at home but you know they've played largely played sensibly in a lot of games. I've sort of felt the last couple of games against PSG and against certainly against Newcastle. I think it was a sort of assumption well they're going to come into the game at some point, they're going to dominate at some point. But I certainly felt against PSG they Needed to be. I think they were being a little bit too respectful. I mean I know PSG G obviously have got a lot of talents in the team and it feels like that their form has come coming at the right time for them. But they have lost games this season. They've lost to Arsenal. They've lost a couple of games in Europe and I just felt that Liverpool needed to be a bit more aggressive in that game and they need to be a bit more aggressive against Newcastle. The other thing a player think is at the start of the season Liverpool got a lot of results as slot consistently picked the same team. Largely played similarly tactically. But maybe some of the teams are sort of getting on to what Liverpool are doing as well. You know as the season's gone on and. And have been able to sort of come up with plans to stop them. You know they have. They have dropped quite a lot of points. Liverpool in the. You know against teams like Newcastle as Andy has said. Nottingham Forest, Everton. You know they have had joy against Liverpool. Not just being lucky to get points. They deserve their points. So it has. You know if Liverpool win the league this will all be forgotten largely because you know winning the title is a big thing for any team particularly for Liverpool. So you know I think people are right to enjoy themselves. But I am, you know I think it is possible to be a bit concerned about what the future holds as well because it does feel like there's a lot of change potentially around the corner. And usually with change that translates as transition and transition you tend not to win very much in.

[Host]

Where are you going with that Positivity.

[Andy Jones]

Flying in.

[Phil Hay]

Doom scrolling for video enthusiasts. Yeah.

[Si Hughes]

Hey, it's just being realistic. It's pragmatic. Yeah.

[Host]

I mean I'm not so doomsworthy as an Arsenal fan. I think Liverpool have kind of got this one in the bag. But you know there are a few banana skins on the way really. You've still got Everton when they come back after the international break. You know a rejuvenated Everton. But it is at Anfield so you'd expect Liverpool to win that. But away games to Fulham, West Ham, Tottenham still Chelsea to a certain degree Brighton and then obviously Arsenal come to Anfield as well. It's not going to be easy going.

[Andy Jones]

No, this. I think this is quite key for Liverpool now is it is to sort of hit the reset button and it is important and I think it almost feels like that Everton game now takes on a bit more of an importance as what performance are we going to have for Liverpool and how does that shape the common weeks? I guess because what you don't want to do now is start getting I guess from Liverpool's perspective the yips and suddenly feel like because it's, it, it's, it's funny in Liverpool. It's funny in football, isn't it? Is that you can look at a set of fixtures one week and think oh yeah, Liverpool will breeze through this and have won the league by the end of April. But now you go oh well that's that. Now that, that looks to you that that won't be difficult. That won't be easy that one. So it's funny and it's just the way foot football works at times. So ultimately Liverpool are better than all of the teams that they're going to be playing in the, in the next few games. Obviously it gets tougher when you know Tottenham we've got obviously having their own problems but you know we'll come Southfield and we'll I'm sure cause problems. Chelsea away Arsenal. There are difficult fixtures in there of course but Liverpool have built themselves a gap where essentially they're allowed a couple of slip ups if they need them. Hopefully they don't but you know they put themselves in such a strong position that it feels like it's, it is a, it feels like it's a when not if. And it's just about keeping their heads at this point. Yeah, they've had a really bad five days and they're probably feeling terrible about everything at the moment. But I think at the start I think it's become very clear that Liverpool's priority was the league and ultimately that has been that the focus all the way through the season. And I'd be amazed if suddenly you know what has happened will have knocked them of course but that it'll have you know, such a knock on effect that, that it'll sort of derail everything and everything will go wrong. And I just don't, I just don't see that happening. It'd be and, and ultimately Arsenal have got to win every game. And the way Arsenal have been this season there's no guarantee that that's going to happen. So. And if Wales comes to Wales, Arsenal got to come to Liverpool. So Liverpool have got that chance to sort it out.

[Host]

Potential God of honor there. Potential God of honor for Arsenal, for Liverpool winning the league potentially Phil. I mean look they've got two weeks off now. A bit of a break, bit of a rest. No more competitions that they're in. Phil, this surely can't happen. Liverpool can't let this slip, could they?

[Phil Hay]

That was fighting them on the beaches from Andy Jones. It was. And bear in mind as well that Arsenal's pictures are not a doddle to the end of the season. They've got some difficult games in there. They've also got two legs against Real Madrid which is going to congest things and Liverpool without that. Andy mentioned pressing the reset button which is probably what needs to happen to an extent at the moment. The thing I've never been able to work out after 20 years of writing about football is whether the international break ever really lets you do that. You get away from the games, which in some ways is a good way of clearing heads. But players go away for international games that the return schedules tends to be sort of faintly ludicrous sometimes. I was reading something about Barcelona earlier this morning which was saying that they've had a game scheduled for the rearranged or scheduled for the day after. Rafinha is supposed to be playing for Brazil against Argentina and South America. So it doesn't always just let you, you know, the idea that everybody gets onto the training pitch and you work on mass and you sort out everything else. For a lot of the international break half your players aren't there so you can't do an awful lot with them. But any manager who's watched for any length of time in the way that slot has will have dealt with periods like this before where it's not going to plan and it's not quite working. And I don't think it'll be anything like crisis mode for slot at all. I think he'll be confident that they get back on this and I think the long and short of it is that the gap as it is at the moment is just too big. It's not to say that it can't be overturned, but I don't think it will be.

[Si Hughes]

I think one of the significant positive things for Liverpool ahead of the return from international football. Football is the. There's the FA cup weekends before it so they get a little bit more of a break after the international break. You know, in the past some of the. The players, particularly Alexis Mac Allister flying back from wherever he's been with Argentina, it's invariably a long journey. It's impacted his performance, you know, subsequently. So I think that is a good thing. You know, that Liverpool, they don't go straight into weekend football. They've got a little bit more time to prepare themselves for what's going to be a big Merseyside derby. I think this is a good time for an international break in terms of the way the schedule's fallen them.

[Host]

There you go, guys. Simon can do positivity, but he really, really tries. Love it. Gents, thank you so much for your time. We're back tomorrow, the Athletic FC podcast.