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- [00:00]
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- [02:27]
Ayo Akumulere
The Athletic FC.
- [02:30]
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me Ayo Akimwaleri. Tuesday night saw goals galore in the Premier League 9 at Craven Cottage, including Haaland's 100th and the last minute equalizer, earning spurs a Point at St. James's Park. But it's more drop points for Newcastle. While spurs struggle to create chances. So what is going on? Well, let's break it down.
- [02:53]
With us today we have a full house. Chris Wath. Charlie. Er. Dan Kilpatrick. And later on we're going to be joined by Jordan Campbell who witnessed some of Holland's magic in Manchester City's 5. 4 win against Fulham. Right Chris. We have to start at St. James's Park. I know you were there. You watched it.
- [03:10]
Chris Waugh
Oh right the way through.
- [03:12]
Charlie Eccleshare
It's spectacular.
- [03:13]
Chris Waugh
And it's the captain again.
- [03:16]
Dan Kilpatrick
Where did that one come from? A strike that any striker would have been proud of.
- [03:21]
Ayo Akumulere
It was a dramatic second half. Thank goodness because the first half was a bit dire. But that's now 11 points drop from winning positions for Newcastle. The joint most in the league. That's not good to hear is it?
- [03:32]
Chris Waugh
It's not. I mean you described Romero's equalizer second equalizer as an overhead kick. And I mean I almost think it does a disservice to every single other overhead kick that's ever been scored. Because can it be described as a rubbish overhead kick? I mean just nothing about that goal certainly from any Castle perspective was good. It looks rather shambolic a that he was able to get in the room to. Well first of all the cross that isn't dealt with properly by Ramsey. So punches the ball up in the air. Then he has loads of room Romero to to get there swivelling and then get his contort his body to direct it towards goal. It goes through about three bodies before then seemingly surprising Ramsdale and going beyond him as well. So very frustrating for Newcastle that already got themselves ahead twice and conceded twice against the side who only had two shots on target. Had shown absolutely no ambition whatsoever. But already this season Newcastle had thrown away draws against Liverpool and Arsenal at home. Conceding in injury time. And then yeah. That's 11 points drop from winning position in the Premier League. And Eddie Howe contributed that by switching to three at the back. Brought on Fabian. Shed almost invited spurs on. And that pressure on. And given maybe the psychological effect of Newcastle dropping previous leads in this sort of position. It just felt very frustrating. After they've won back to back Premier League games for the first time this season. Having won the first away match of the season at Everton at the weekend. But they just can't get positive momentum on a regular basis in the Premier League at the moment. And it just.
- [04:54]
Rubrik Representative
Yeah.
- [04:54]
Chris Waugh
It sort of summed up the season a little bit that game. Because they could and should have had more from it, but fundamental shortcomings have cost them.
- [05:02]
Ayo Akumulere
Yeah, I mean, give him some dues. Give Romero some dues. Charlie. Come on, man. Two shots, two goals. Bank. Some might call that efficiency. I mean, he was the one that dragged spurs back into this. And actually inevitably, spurs looked like they were going to lose that game. Ended up leaving with a point.
- [05:19]
Charlie Eccleshare
Yeah.
- [05:19]
Dan Kilpatrick
And I guess for a team that have struggled to create anything game after game, this was their fourth Premier League game in a row where they didn't have a shot on target in the first half. Clearly it needed just something mad to sort of unsettle Newcastle and allow spurs to create anything. And Romero, you know, for the first one, certainly popping up and you're a bit like, why? Why is he there? And then the second one somehow managing to sort of fall to the ground, clamber back up and then shin a bicycle gig. Beyond about 10 players, he is. He is an extraordinary player and person. I mean, like, you know, not all. It's not always entirely positive. You know, he. He is no stranger to a red card or a kind of moment of madness. But yeah, he can. He can pop up with things, with things like that. And to be honest, like, it didn't really look like there was going to be much inspiration from anywhere else. Because I do agree with Chris. I mean, they didn't really pose much of a threat. Like, it's a really good result for them. And I mean, I mean, it's such a low bar. I guess they did have a couple of chances like the Bergval flick. But yeah, this was more just about two huge moments from Romero to. To save them.
- [06:35]
Ayo Akumulere
Yeah. Dan, let's bring you in and talk about Thomas front because he's praised the mentality of his team to come back twice. Really. As Charlie's just alluded to, spurs were not that inspired in that match. Any signs of encouragement from that performance in any way, shape or form?
- [06:52]
Jordan Campbell
Yeah, there were. I think Jamie Carragher summed it up really well on Sky Commentary when he said, you can take this result for spurs and you can really spin it or paint it in a really positive way. You can say it's a tough place to go. It's been a bit of a bogey ground for them, Newcastle, and they've come from behind twice. They've shown real grit, they've shown real character. Maybe this is a turning point, but I think Carragher's wider point was that it didn't really feel like that. And that's certainly how I Felt watching most of the game, they were better than they have been. They were against Arsenal and Fulham. But as Charlie says, the bar was incredibly low. And you know, speaking for myself, I went into that game with expectations on the floor really after the way spurs have played in the last few weeks and in fact for the last few months. And they've got some hidings there over the years. And I thought there was a good chance that this could be Frank's kind of Christian Cellini moment of, you know, 5 nil down in 21 minutes or whatever. Yeah, that's where my expectations were. So they exceeded them. But I still thought spurs struggled to create. They were on the back foot. I thought Newcastle let them off the hook, really. Newcastle pressed very well in the first half and won a lot of turnovers, but they didn't do a huge amount with it. And I thought spurs were kind of there for the taking. I mean, just on Romero as well. I think the importance of those two goals and his performance was beyond the kind of points. And the goals I think spurs have, you know, literally in the Fulham game were the dressing room was kind of at loggerheads with the crowd. And I think that they really felt the absence of Son there. I think Son would have been the guy who would have, you know, been able to go over the crowd and just say calm down. And spurs kind of missed him and they missed the captain that day. And I think Romero is now now the captain and they need someone to kind of rally around. They need a cult hero. They need someone who can sort of calm things down when it gets like it did against Fulham. And I think he can be that.
- [08:40]
Dan Kilpatrick
Man potentially or even James Madison who, you know, along with Son and Romero is in that initial leadership group under Ange. And Madison is, you know, he's always, I think, gone above and beyond. You know, he's always felt a lot more accessible than most footballers and some might not like him on a personal level or like that, but I do think he does do that and he does create some connection with fans, you know, people, you know, he's a good character and he's been absent as well. So I think that's compounded that Son departure that they've effectively been without, you know, two of their captains from the last couple of seasons.
- [09:14]
Ayo Akumulere
Okay, well, Chris, we have to talk about the penalty. Rodrigo Betalcourt was a judge to have held Dan Byrne after a VAR review. From what I heard, it was that he wasn't looking at the ball. I mean, do you think Newcastle were Lucky there. Great penalty by Anthony Gorda by the way.
- [09:30]
Dan Kilpatrick
But be honest, I think they were fortunate.
- [09:33]
Chris Waugh
I mean if the, if the penalty had been given on the field I don't think it should have been overturned. I think it's a one of the one. I don't think it met the high bar threshold to go to be referred to Var and then for it to be overturned and it seemed, I mean Newcastle's bench were very agitated. You'd be shocked to hear that Jason Tindall was in the ear of the fourth official immediately after. After it happened and. And I mean obviously that doesn't influence the VAR because they were somewhere else but it did feel like maybe that sort of pressure put put on the referee or whatever he went across and yeah, I think, I think it is a foul but as I don't think it should have been given off the field. But funny Castle, it was certainly very helpful because after having conceded the first equalizer, although they'd been on top during the game, it wasn't like they're sort of flattered to deceive because I agree with Dan that the game was there for the taking with them but they just didn't. Their final ball wasn't really there. They weren't clinical in the final third. It's not like Vicario had lots and lots of saves to make. He made a couple of half decent ones and Newcastle spend a couple of opportunities. But I didn't necessarily feel after spurs had equalizer, oh, Newcastle will go on and win this. So they sort of needed that moment. And then it was a bit bizarre how Gordon held the ball and Voldemort held the ball. Then Gordon had the ball. It was sort of like trying to psych out spurs and it obviously worked in terms of them scoring from the penalty but they still couldn't even hold on to that. So yeah, they probably were a bit fortunate but yeah, I just don't understand why VAR intervened.
- [10:48]
Jordan Campbell
There are a lot of spurs fans on social media kind of saying that was one of the worst decisions they've ever seen and they couldn't believe it was penalty. I mean as the I guess designated spurs fan on this podcast, I thought it was a penalty. I think Chris is absolutely right. Like there was. No, that's not what VAR is for. VAR is not there to re referee the game like that. That was the frustrating thing. It shouldn't have been reviewed but I wouldn't have been, you know, at all shocked had the referee given that. And I totally understand why having been sent to the monitor, he did give it like, Bentoncourt is not looking at the ball. The ball actually lands where Dan Byrne would have been had he not been kind of hauled to the ground. So, yeah, I mean, fair enough. But why is Vary refereeing the game?
- [11:31]
Ayo Akumulere
I guess what looked contentious to a certain degree, and I know he wasn't looking at the ball, was that by the point in which it looked like a value was sort of off him. But I don't know whether that's just game tactics or him trying to, you know, redeem himself of a possible foul. But you called this, Charlie, in terms of Dan Byrne, I think January, you tweeted that Dan Byrne, the classic. He's big, English and seems like a good lad, so can basically do whatever he wants. He can do whatever he wants. He can win penalties, he can score goals. Come on.
- [11:59]
Dan Kilpatrick
Yeah, I mean, funny. I mean, this tweet got me a lot of love from spurs fans and a lot of hate from Newcastle fans, though it was. It's actually not the most hated tweet, even in a thread, because I also suggested that Newcastle were refereed differently because they're viewed as being tough and what have you. But no, I think. I think Byrne, he. You know, he's such a likable character. He's very much in the kind of classic English mold, I think. And I think he does get a lot of 50, 50s, put it this way, if that's Byrne doing that to Benton Corp, I don't think spurs get a penalty in a million years. I really. I really do believe that. I think it's a really odd one to give. I know what you mean, Dan, that I didn't. I was slightly surprised in commentary. Carragher was saying, like, you know, there's just no way that's a penalty. I was kind of like, is it not? He is sort of. It's one way you normally get away with it. So you expect just. You probably will get away with it as you generally do.
- [12:55]
Ayo Akumulere
Yeah, that's it.
- [12:57]
Jordan Campbell
There is so much of it.
- [12:58]
Charlie Eccleshare
Exactly.
- [12:58]
Dan Kilpatrick
Well, that's it. But that's. And that's what he's doing. Benticaur is basically trusting. Yeah, I'll probably get away with this because people always do.
- [13:06]
Jordan Campbell
But we've all played football and kind of been in a grapple and you're both grappling. So there's arms on each other, but there's one party working harder to bring the other one down who wants it to end on the floor more than the other. And in that case, Benticle was clearly the one who wanted it to end on the floor much more than Byrne did. Byrne wanted to go for the ball and was indeed looking at the ball and I don't think Bentagor had any idea of when the corner was even taken. You know, he had his back to the, the corner taker. So I, I, yeah, it's, it's, it, it's not a VAR intervention in a million years for me. But I get why having been sent to the monitor, ref's got to give a penalty.
- [13:41]
Chris Waugh
Well, Dan Byrne this week actually has just been given an honorary doctorate in Civil law by Northumbria University, so maybe that applied in this this decision as well. So.
- [13:52]
Podcast Host/Producer
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Accumulere.
- [13:59]
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- [16:28]
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- [17:19]
Ayo Akumulere
Let's move on gentlemen because it's five wins, four draws, five defeats for both sides in the Premier League this season. Where do we start with this one? Can we put a finger on it Chris from a Newcastle perspective?
- [17:30]
Chris Waugh
Well, I think there's myriad factors for Newcastle largely stemming out from a disrupted and very difficult summer. Obviously lost Alexander Isak high profile. Later on in the summer they brought in Nick Voldemort who stylistically is a very different center forward. They've almost been evolving on the pitch. Johan Whisper, who was the striker was signed, who was seen as most similar in in many ways to Isak has not kicked a ball yet for Newcastle. He's been injured with a knee injury suffered on international duty and then added to that fixture congestion. Newcastle have they. It's been weird because until last couple of weeks they've really struggled in the Premier League, but they're through to their fourth consecutive Carabao cup quarterfinal. The competition they won last season finally ending the 56 year hoodoo without win a trophy. And in some ways that's kept the season positive. But in other ways it's almost like they're distracted away from the Premier League where they need to get positive results. And then in the Champions League they won three successive matches. They lost in Marseille last week. But they're in a strong position in, in the Champions League. And I think in some ways the big players at Newcastle, who maybe some of. Some of them are aging, maybe there needs to be a refresh of the starting 11, the squad haven't been deepened over the summer, that maybe they're focusing on those big occasions, those big nights, the. The cup nights and the Champions League nights. And they haven't done it often enough in the Premier League. Eddie Howe's also learning to rotate. And then the sort of issues that you met that we mentioned earlier about Newcastle conceding late goals, I think there's. There's maybe a mentality issue that haven't quite been the. A couple of years ago they were known for sort of the dark arts and the way that they almost like England's Athletico Madrid and the way that they applied and haven't really been like that. So I think rediscovering all of that has been difficult for them and they can't be as intense as that. They are at the best under anyhow in every single match. That, that's. That's the best way I can explain their inconsistency. But it is quite befuddling, really.
- [19:09]
Charlie Eccleshare
No.
- [19:09]
Ayo Akumulere
Do we put Tottenham in this Mark? Charlie, what would you say?
- [19:12]
Dan Kilpatrick
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting hearing Chris talk about Newcastle there because I think there are some similarities. I mean, you know, you talk about Isaac going and then Volta, Marda replacing him and being very different stylistically. Obviously spurs, manager wise, they've. They've got a huge shift stylistically going from Ange to Thomas Frank. So there's a big adaptation there, I think like Newcastle juggling Champions League is difficult, you know, because you can't really. You just can't rotate in the same way as you know, spurs were used to doing with the Europa League. And you know, Newcastle have had seasons where they. You weren't weren't even in Europe at all. So that makes life a lot easier. And then. And again, you know, another similarity is the injuries, you know, for Visser, Reed, Solanke and you know, obviously Madison and Kudasevsky as well. And I think you've just got to have such a huge squad to try and compete in the Premier League and Champions League, which I'm not sure either of these teams really do yet. That takes a lot of time and a lot of money and then throw in few injuries to key players. It's just hard, you know, like the Premier League is really. It's. So there's such like a similar level of quality I think that a lot of teams have and you know, so you can't. And teams are emboldened now especially. And obviously I guess the difference between the two teams is that Newcastle have been good at home and really bad away. And for spurs you flip that. But yeah, I just think there's like a level of sophistication that most Premier League teams have now. And if you're a little bit off it and if that's as a result of having had like a tough Champions League game on the Wednesday, then you are going to get exposed.
- [20:44]
Ayo Akumulere
Dan Jack Pitt Brooks piece after yesterday's match was really interesting because he spoke about the, the intangibles. He says, did the players believe in what they are doing? Are the fans behind the new coach and the team? Are those bonds between the fans, the players and the managers strong enough to pull everyone together? Does that make sense in what he's trying to say? It's not just obviously the players, but there's a lot of other things here that just don't seem to be working for Spurs.
- [21:11]
Jordan Campbell
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a great piece from Jack. When spurs have been at their best in the last decade was obviously the Pochettino era and there was a kind of thread of unity that ran from the boardroom through the terraces, right through the team. Everyone was pulling in the same direction. And that was partly because they had a really charismatic coach and a great coaching staff and, you know, who instilled this culture in the club. But you know, it really hasn't been that way at all. Barring a few very brief periods like the first half season under Ange since Pochettino left the club. And you look at the state of spurs now and you know, I've been pretty vocal that I don't think Frank is the right man. You know, I don't mind saying that. But you look at spurs now and all these kind of threads are broken. Looks like the players are, you know, at loggerheads with the fans. I don't think the players fully respect Frank from what, from what I can see. I don't think they fully believe in what they're being asked to do. And then there's this issue of the boardroom, you know, no one really knows who anyone on the board is anymore. You know, Levy was obviously, you know, I think he's the most responsible figure there is for the mess spurs are in. But he was also a kind of quite useful lightning rod for support of frustration. Would Vicario have been booed against Fulham if Levy was in the director's box? I don't think he would because fans would just chant, we want Levy out. But he's not there anymore. And no one's going to chant, we want Peter Charington out. No one knows who he is, and equally no one.
- [22:30]
Dan Kilpatrick
We want Vivian Lewis out.
- [22:32]
Jordan Campbell
Vin, I get out of our club. You know, it's not going to happen. So there's this. There's this kind of vacuum of leadership and power. You know, I think almost at every level of the club, we talked about the team. I don't think Frank's quite got the authority to manage the dressing room and pull the supporters with him. So there's a. In short, there are a lot of issues and, you know, we could do a whole podcast on it.
- [22:54]
Dan Kilpatrick
Do you think, as well? Like, you guys did a really good episode review from the Lane recently about sort of, what are Spurs? And obviously a lot of that is the post Levy identity. But I do also wonder, and you could probably speak to this as an actual fan, but, like, for so long, winning a trophy was like the holy grail. It was like, well, what if we won a trophy? Like, we win a trope. We could just win a trophy. Like, maybe then everything will be okay. But then you do win a trophy and obviously, like that. You have this incredible night in Bilbao and that's all amazing, but then you come back a couple of months later and it's like nothing's really changed. And in fact, we're, what's next? What are we doing? Where do we go? Like, actually, maybe that wasn't the panacea. Like, we haven't kicked on. We're exactly where we were and maybe even gone back.
- [23:36]
Jordan Campbell
Ange always used to say, didn't he, Winning a trophy is not going to be the panacea. It's not going to fix all Tottenham's problems. And so it's turned out, and I think, yeah, one of the big kind of almost existential questions for spurs now is what kind of club do they want to be? Are the ownership really serious about pumping money in and challenging for the biggest trophies? If so, we should find out pretty soon. If not, then what's the aim? Do they want to entertain fans? Do they want to you know, consistently get in the Champions League. You know what, what is the point? What is the purpose of Tottenham? And I think we're still trying to work that out and I think worryingly kind of people in the boardroom are probably still trying to work that out as well.
- [24:13]
Ayo Akumulere
Yeah, very similarly. Chris, can we ask that question about Newcastle? I don't know. Very different journey to Spurs. But do we have a sense of what Newcastle are and what Newcastle want to achieve? Because like any team trying to break into that sort of top sphere of football. Is it constant European qualification? Is it front foot football? Is it game management? I don't know. Like what can we, what can we send Newcastle are as well?
- [24:37]
Chris Waugh
Well, Newcastle have had a new CEO who arrived in September, David Hopkinson. He's been speaking this week, some quarters to come earlier in the week and he's almost tried to, to reset things a little bit and put Newcastle back in the sort of sphere that Yasser Ramayan, the governor of paf, the majority owners and their chairman said a couple years ago which was to be number one. And the ambition is to really to try and not just win the odd trophy here and there. They want to be consistent challengers. They want to grow on and off the field. And in some ways that seems a bit fanciful because the owners have been there for four years and Newcastle have improved immeasurably. They've won a trophy. They've been in the Champions League twice. But it's not like they are suddenly challenging Man City or Liverpool or certainly Real Madrid. But the ambition is there to be that. The problem they've had is some of the financial regulations that are in place which sort of have limited them to a certain degree. And maybe they haven't actually grown revenue and commercial wise as much as they want to. But I think in the short to medium term the goal this season has to be Europe as a minimum, ideally back in the Champions League because that allows them to attract better players and keep their better players. But B financially is transformative relative to to the Europa League and would help them continue in that. And if they can do. They haven't done it in consecutive seasons yet. So if they can follow one season of doing it with another, then that would be huge for them. But given the way that they've started the season, you certainly can't say that that's a given that they'll get in the Champions League. And there are a lot of teams competing for those positions. We don't yet know whether there'll be five through the league either. It may only be four, probably will be five, but we don't yet know that for certain. So to get into Europe in some ways, maybe if they've got the Europa League for next season, that helps them learn a bit more about Europe. Maybe they need to take a step back, to take a step forward to. To. As Charlie was saying, you can rotate a bit more in the Europa League, they can't do that in the Champions League. Is their squad strong enough and deep enough to really rotate properly in the Champions League? It's certainly better and I think through a group stage is fine, but are you going to get the latter stages? So, yeah, the ambition, at least stated, is still huge. But how and how they get there and how quickly they can get there and if they indeed can get there, I think these are all questions which are still being asked because the football landscape is very different to when Man City's owners took over the club there. There are far more established clubs, there are regulations in place. And also I just think it's far more difficult now than it was then. So, yeah, the ambitions are huge, but can they fulfill them? Is the. Is the big unanswered question that we won't know for years to come?
- [26:56]
Ayo Akumulere
From a Spurs perspective, I'm just thinking about Thomas Frank then and I'm hoping we still see Thomas Frank as coach manager of Tottenham Hotspur till at least Christmas. How can he get these fans on side, you know, losing to Arsenal, losing to Chelsea, for instance, that can't help the home record, can't help Nunes. Burrito Santo had a quite a turbulent start to his Tottenham career, Charlie, and he didn't go long after that defeat to Arsenal.
- [27:22]
Dan Kilpatrick
The North Honor Derby defeat a week or so ago did really remind me of that 3:1 game after which Nuno was pretty much done. I think he lost all his remaining games and was sacked a few games later. But you could feel it. I mean, it was like it was that bad. Like, I really did feel it was that terrible. And the approach was. I mean Nuno's approach that day was kind of baffling.
- [27:41]
Charlie Eccleshare
It was.
- [27:41]
Dan Kilpatrick
It was. He basically played out of midfield. I mean, it was like it was horrendous, but it wasn't so defensive. There was something about that defensive approach obviously from Frank, but we know, which has been well documented. I think, you know, he. I think spurs have got the best, the joint best away record in the Premier League and the second worst home record. And if you flip that, his standing would probably be a lot better. With fans, you know, if they were winning most of the home games, it's really tricky because he's in this position where he clearly thinks the best way to beat Chelsea and Arsenal or get a result against them is to go in with a very defensive approach like that. He wouldn't have done it otherwise. And so he's now in a position where does he kind of stray from what he thinks is the way to approach those games, certainly for now, you know, to sort of appease fans or does, you know, which maybe that will work. And obviously psg, I think there was at least a bit of like, well, you know, we gave it a go. I think that I've always felt with Frank, like I just. And as a fan, I think you need to dream. I don't see that higher ceiling for him with spurs. Like, I really struggle to see what's like the best case scenario, you know, because even, you know, you look at fans of say Liverpool under Klopp or whatever, there were some crazy lows, but you were like, this could be amazing. And even like Arteta at Arsenal was like basically traded off for the first year or so of like, but what if he is the next Pep, you know, as crazy as that sounds, what if he is and he kind of turned out to be with Frank? I. I don't know, I just. I think he could do a decent job. But does anyone really believe he's the kind of project guy to come in and be there for years and years? Like, I know he was at Brentford for ages, but for him to. For him to be at Spurs Rages, he'd have to basically be challenging for the Premier League and Champions League in a couple of years. I don't know, I just think that sort of anticlimactic feel now fans have post finally winning a trophy coupled with bringing in a kind of safe pair of hands. Manager has just added to this sense of kind of like, meh. And Frank somehow needs to challenge that and make it feel like more of a vibe at spurs. You know, like, remember those first few Ange home games, it was, it was incredible, you know, and everyone's singing his name and angels and all of that. Like it was a real vibe. And he's a good example. Like, yes, it all ultimately in the league went badly, but for those early weeks and months there was this sense of like, what if Ange sort of is the messiah? Like he might be.
- [30:11]
Ayo Akumulere
You say spurs fancy run off vibes though. Is that what you're saying?
- [30:14]
Dan Kilpatrick
But you know, well, do you know What I mean, but for any fan, you need to dream that there's like this crazily high ceiling that could happen. It might not. It may well not, but it could. I just don't think that really exists with Frank. There isn't. What fan is being like, oh, but if he gets it right, we could win the league soon. No, I think some fans might be like, if Frank gets it right, that will look like some sort of sensible, competent performances that stabilize us, which is maybe needed. Maybe they need that. And then someone else comes in, you know, maybe he's the Unai Emery or the Bruce Riok or whatever, but it's not that sexy a period to live through.
- [30:46]
Jordan Campbell
I think Charlie's bang on and I think the frustration is that Postecoglou could, and I think it was the right decision to sack Potecogli, for the record, and it didn't work. But I think Postecoglou could have been this really important bridge from Mourinho, Nuno and Conte to kind of remind Tottenham what they are and remind Tottenham what fans want to see and what the kind of culture of the club is and what the history and traditions of the club are. And he kind of could have been the guy to decontify and sort of detoxify the club and be a bridge to another progressive coach. And I think that was what spurs needed to do. It's easy to say with hindsight and, you know, I was broadly okay with the Frank appointment because I was told by everyone, oh, he just adapts to what he has and he'll be able to scale it up and play nice football. And that hasn't happened yet. But it seems like instead of making Postecogli that kind of important bridge, they've overcorrected again and gone back to someone who is just all pragmatism and it's going to be safety first and as Charlie says, sets up in their two biggest games of the season against the two biggest rivals in this incredibly negative way that produces kind of record low XGs, which is not sustainable at Tottenham. It's. It's just not. So. I think that as Charlie's touched on the sort of big question now for spurs, really, and for Frank is, is can he change? Because what he's been doing is not. Is not going to work. It's not going to last. Can he change? I don't think. I can't think of many managers who have radically adjusted their approach, to be honest. It doesn't tend to happen. But that's what's got to happen I think if Frank's going to be a success at Spurs.
- [32:18]
Dan Kilpatrick
I think that point's so spot on though about just because Ange didn't work in totality it doesn't mean that that kind of manager is wrong. You know you're so right. You don't need to completely overcorrect. And that's what teams always do. And we've seen so much of that from Spurs. Like yes he wasn't perfect. He did still get them a trophy. But you know, go for someone else. You can still go for someone who plays progressive football and maybe is more of a kind of project manager for want of a better phrase. Even if he wasn't perfect, you don't have to then sort of go back to what you had before.
- [32:50]
Ayo Akumulere
Yeah. Me and Chris are just sitting here as the therapists listen to this purge on us. I mean like with all due respect Chris. I mean you imagine that the feeling with Eddie Howe regardless of where Newcastle are right now is a little bit more in favor just because of the good times already that maybe some Newcastle fans have seen with this team.
- [33:11]
Chris Waugh
Yeah. And I think it was a really good point that Charlie made about wanting fans to dream and having a manager who allows that. Because there's a. There's a sort of with it with Eddie how it's strange because when he speaks publicly he usually says very little. His press conferences can be quite boring and he's very straight backed. But actually what he always does is he just taps enough into to make and fans want to dream. Never sort of sets a limit on what it should be. And you usually see that with when his team's at best as well the way that they play on the field. It makes you feel. Certainly gets the crowd at St. James's park on board. It makes you feel like anything could be possible. The Newcastle particularly play well against the better teams. But also that idea that you would never diminish the fact that Newcastle fans should dream that there should be one to win trophies. That there should be one to improve. And so I think that has really helped connect with supporters alongside obviously the success on the field which just reinforces that. And they've been the Champions League twice. He delivers that trophy and genuine affection for what he is. He's basically totally bought into everything in the castle and he's tapped into something about the identity here and the. The. The. This idea of being different. Of being separate from elsewhere. Of we're not going to get anything. We're gonna have to Just take it ourselves and that sort of. He re. You don't think of that. You think of like nice guy Eddie Howard, Bournemouth. But he really isn't that. He's. He's far more cute and than that and very clever in how he approaches things. And there was a very difficult spell this season, I mean in November. International break went into that. And after Newcastle lost their third successive away match in pretty dire circumstances where they basically played the same way, the same team in a few matches in a row. There were big questions being asked. But he has the full support of the board. Ross Wilson, new sporting directors come in. He's fully supportive of him. I certainly don't think in the short to medium term no matter what happens this season. I can't see anyhow being under any real pressure internally. He's doing me to say now obviously results turn changes but I just think that that alignment that you talked about that isn't necessarily there at Spurs. That wasn't there in Newcastle over the summer because it didn't have a CEO and sporting director. They do now. And it feels like everyone now is on the same page. Fans are buying into that again and so that has been key to their success since the takeover. And they believe that's going to be key to them kicking on to the next stage as well.
- [35:12]
Ayo Akumulere
Any money in the pot for January and any new incomings potentially. I know it's early to talk about it but we spoke about Man United yesterday and honestly social media went wild. Everyone's throwing in names of midfielders in.
- [35:24]
Chris Waugh
There and Newcastle would like to bring in players if they can. But basically any business they will do they will front load stuff that they would have done next summer anyway. So that definitely could do with improving in fullback positions. The fullbacks have been injured at various points of season. Lewis Haul and Tino Liver Mendo. And they are a team transformed with the two of them. Fullbacks are essential to Eddie Howe's team particularly in attack and to get some greater cover. Human trip is 35 now. Can't get forward like he used to. Dan Burns being covering in left back he's not a natural left back. So that ideally I to do that. They're really like Keys Smith. It is at Alcomont as so many teams do. But they think if they go aggressive in January they may have a chance of with that. That seems ambitious. It probably needs Joe Willock to leave as well. But yeah, I can see them doing one or two things potentially. But it's not going to be mass overhaul in January.
- [36:07]
Ayo Akumulere
Yeah. Dan spurs we know about the injuries. Key, key players as well. I don't know. I look at this squad and I think it's actually quite decent if someone could just do something amazing with it.
- [36:18]
Jordan Campbell
Yeah, I mean I think the big thing for spurs is getting players back. I mean Radi Dragossin and Kota Tukai played in a behind closed door friendly this week so they have some defensive reinforcements soon. And then the question is when is Kulusevski going to be fit? I think and Dom to lanky get those two back. Then suddenly Frank's attack looks very, very different. Spurs might be able to actually create something and play on the front foot and let's see. And then I think Maddison is unlikely to play a significant part this season, but toward the end of spring possibly he could be back in the picture. So rather than doing big things in January, which is always a difficult window to buy and I think the key will be seeing how these players recover and return. I'll be very intrigued if spurs do, you know, try and make an ambitious play for say Semenyo who we know has a really sports for the first couple of weeks because if they went big for him and got him, then I think spurs fans could really start believing in what they're hearing from the Post Levy ownership.
- [37:15]
Ayo Akumulere
Okay, next we talk about Haaland hitting 100 goals.
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- [38:07]
Ayo Akumulere
Tired of presenting to tuned out rooms?
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Research says you've got 47 seconds before.
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Charlie Eccleshare
Aha Slides Turn sleepy slides into engaging experiences. Instead of talking at people, you make.
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Ayo Akumulere
Them part of the moment with live.
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Charlie Eccleshare
Polls, quizzes and word clouds that wake.
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Dan Kilpatrick
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Chris Waugh
Go to www.ahaslides.com aha slides what will.
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Dan Kilpatrick
You do with all the engagement.
- [38:43]
Podcast Host/Producer
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akumulere.
- [38:48]
Doku.
- [38:48]
Ayo Akumulere
Now, Holland.
- [38:53]
Charlie Eccleshare
That is the moment for.
- [38:54]
Jordan Campbell
Erling Haaland among those looking on the.
- [38:57]
Dan Kilpatrick
Proud father 100 Premier League goals.
- [39:00]
Jordan Campbell
Goals.
- [39:01]
Ayo Akumulere
Joining me right now, we've got our Manchester City writer Jordan Campbell with us. Jordan, good to have you with us. You were at Craven Cottage to witness Haaland make history in the Mad 54 victory against Fulham. I mean, what an achievement.
- [39:14]
Charlie Eccleshare
And also what a game Pep Guardiola sort of summed up. He said you'd all written that Man City were back at 5:1 and then you sort of had to put that in the trash. So yeah, I couldn't believe it. When I went to 5:2. I was thinking, surely not. And then every time the ball went in, all I was reminded of, I could keep thinking of was the Alex Ferguson's final game.
- [39:37]
With West Brom. And I was thinking, you know, that felt like a 5, 5 game because it was like this festival. So a testimonial atmosphere. But really it shouldn't feel like that when Man City are going for for a title. But yeah, for some reason they keep making life really difficult for themselves.
- [39:54]
Ayo Akumulere
Yeah, for sure. Well, we have to talk about Holland because he became the fastest player to reach 100 Premier League goals. 100 goals in 111 games. I mean, what an achievement that was. And you know, Pep Guardiola, I think was asked by a journalist in his post match how high his ceiling was. He went, look, if you told me he'd be scoring 100 goals in 111 games. This guy's about numbers. Forwards are about numbers and stats. And he's extraordinary.
- [40:20]
Charlie Eccleshare
Oh yeah, he has. I mean, that Overall figure of 260 that Alan Shearer set, you know, that's clearly been in the conversation ever since he made his debut in school to two against West Ham. And we realized like, this guy doesn't need much time to adapt to English football. But I mean, 100 goals in 111 games is, as you say, it's just frightening. It probably should have been 109 or 110 had they not missed a couple of chances against Newcastle in Leeds. But yeah, yesterday when he went through one one on one with the goalkeeper and hit the post, you were thinking maybe he's going to be in the nervous 90s and we might be here next year and he's still not scored. But you know, pretty soon he, he showed that that was just a blip. But he's incredible and I think you Know, aside from the goals this season, you're seeing the real development of his hold up play. He saw his assess for riders last night, the way he just barged Anderson out the road and played this really great swivel pass through to Rinders sort of blind pass. We've seen that a lot more with him linking up with, with Foden and you know, City. I know we were critical of them or I've been critical of them defensively and how much they're sort of sitting off the ball now, you know, 43% possession. But the one thing it is doing as it is opening up the opportunity for Haaland to play on the counter and that is a scary thing. And I think when you look that was at 36 goals in his first season, dropped the next season and then last season I think it dropped to 22. You're thinking, oh, maybe English football's, you know, slightly got used to a bit more that he's going to revert to some more normal numbers. But yeah, I don't think Haaland does normal numbers. And I think this season you're seeing that, you know, he's on track to at least match the record that he already broke. And it wouldn't surprise me if he does it. He's just, he's a freaking nature as.
- [42:10]
Ayo Akumulere
We'Re talking more numbers. Haaland has beat shearer's record of 100 goals in 124 games, the previous fastest to the century. Kane did it in 141 games, Aguero 147 and Henria in 160. I want to focus more about the levels he's hitting because the Premier League has evolved over the last few years. We've seen bigger players over the last few years at this level of the Premier League to achieve that. For me that's what's astronomical.
- [42:37]
Charlie Eccleshare
Yeah, as, I mean some of these players like Shira, I think, you know, the current generation of people watching football sometimes can't relate to football. In the late 90s or early 2000s they, they sort of see it as this different sport where things were easier. I mean, I'm not sure I believe that but you know, the Canes and Rooneys and Henry swallowed the numbers that Kane was posting. You know how he just flew as soon as he went in the team and it felt like it was going to probably take something really special to, for somebody to come in and hit the ground running as quickly as he did. But yeah, every week I feel like I go sit down and I Look at the Optus stats and there's another, another record that is about to break. I mean, even look at the Champions League. We're talking about the names in the Premier League, the Champions league, fastest to 50 goals and he makes Rud Van Nesteroy look like a Bando. You know, it's like, it's incredible how he's just normalizing things though. The only people that we've seen do this is probably Ronaldo and Messi. And the question is, can he do it for 10, 12, 15 years? Well, he's been doing it for what, five, six, seven now? I don't see him slowing down anytime soon. He looks in the best shape I think we've seen him. And he was saying yesterday that Pep was almost telling him at full time, I need you, I need you fat. I know that we're seeing the sort of glimpse into his world through his YouTube. I think you can see how much work that he puts in off the field to making sure he's this well oiled machine. So, yeah, I think it's incredible what he's doing and I think, yeah, the only danger is that we become so used to it that you almost get desensitized to this. But you know, I don't know how many games you'll be on when he gets to 200. But the fact that we don't, like, we don't think there's a question of whether he'll get to 200 is pretty special, I think.
- [44:29]
Ayo Akumulere
Yeah, but also, I mean, you've just said, you know, who knows if he'll do it for 10, whatever years. But is Pep Guardiola also integral to that? If you think about it, the work he's done with him in allowing him to express himself, but also playing a system that really suits this player's prowess. Do you know, I mean, if Pep leaves in the next two or three years, will Harland be as prolific, do you reckon?
- [44:50]
Charlie Eccleshare
Well, that's the question is, you know, haaland signed the 10 year contract, you know, within the last year. He's committed to set it. But there's obviously the 115 charges are there still to be decided. You've got Pep? We don't know. We never know whether Pep is going to sign a new contact or not, whether he can finally pull himself away. But you know, City are going through a transition just now. If they don't win the league, that's two years in a row they've not won the league. Haaland needs to be one title. So you know, we've become so used to say winning titles. I think the question is of what life will be like for Haaland after, after Pep. But you know, a lot of people thought there's no way that Pep will ever play with a striker like Haaland. I mean, he's showing that he can pretty much coach every type of player. And he's not just a one, a one trick system manager. You know, he's. He's reinvented the way so many times and, and this is what we're seeing just now is he's doing it again. And I think as actually it has sort of brought back to life that Haaland goal that we saw all the time in Dortmund, where he's running through and goal. It felt like that was never going to happen again because teams sat in so deep. But Pep's adjusted and he's asking teams, okay, you come on to us then and we'll leave that guy up front. But I think that the biggest thing for Haaland, apart from the goals and what you're saying about, you know, playing under Pep and how long will it be here, etc, after him, is like, you see his commitment to City, since he made one of the leaders in January, he's just gone up another level. Like the amount of work this guy is putting in, the amount of headers he's winning in his own box, the amount of pressing he's doing, it is incredible. My only fear for him is can he keep that up for a whole season when it's 60 odd games, can he really be putting in that much work? I think that's the question to ask. Marmush is away to the AFCON and later this month, so he's going to have to basically play every game almost. But yeah, he's all round game and he's what great is really impressive because with these superstars, the more of a superstar they become, usually the less work they put into the team and the more the team has to adjust. You see that with Salah at Liverpool. Haaland is not asking anyone to do his running for him. And I think it's actually quite nice to see a superstar who has got the same work ethic as everyone else.
- [47:01]
Ayo Akumulere
Yeah, I mean, you talk about Pep reinventing the wheel and I just want to touch on, it's fair to say the last two games City, they've looked like they were going to win it and they've made life really difficult for themselves. I just want to relay something, what Pep Guardiola said In the post match where he was like, you know, we. We've made six or seven new signings in, you know, the last two transfer windows or something. And you know, maybe this is a lesson for the club. You can reinvent the will, but you still got to get those components working, mate. And that's what we're seeing right now. The team is stacked with. But how they work together, they're still being found out in moments, aren't they?
- [47:36]
Charlie Eccleshare
You know, I was thinking about this last night when, after, after the game and I was like, how did that happen? Because we've seen it happen against Leeds at the weekend and you're thinking, well, surely a team full of these serial winners. And then I paused and I was like, well, how many of these players are still serial winners? Because. And I look through it, have lost over 1500 Premier League appearances in the summer. 1500 with Akanji, De Bruyne, Walker, Gundogan. All of these players leaving huge, huge players in the recent history and they've replaced them with good players. But a lot of them are players that need developed. And then I looked at it and we've made 11 signings, two of which are Trafford and Bettinelli, goalkeepers who aren't playing. If you take them out, the last nine major signings they've made since January, not one is Premier League experience. So, you know, while they all are sort of summed up, Tuesday night has been it's just a Premier League. There's no other way to explain it. It's just that's what the Premier League does to you. And I think there is, there is an element to it where you think there's no easy games. You can't take your foot off the gas. And maybe some of these players are still adjusting to that because this has happened so often. Brighton early in the season, they were. They were a goal up and ended up. Second half never started, couldn't arrest the game. Leeds to. Now you're thinking it's a case of how many didn't start the second half and couldn't find a way to sort it out until Roma goes down. But there's a real trend here where City are actually playing quite well and then they cannot sustain it. Brentford was another one away, one nil. Ended up being quite edgy. Monaco, they were up being quite edgy. Villarreal ended up quite edgy. They're having these periods where they just completely stop playing and they can't keep the ball. And it's quite a. It's quite a Strange sight to watch a Guardiola team that just doesn't, isn't wave after wave of possession. They're actually sitting back and can't get out. That's quite alien to watch and I'm not sure how comfortable he can be watching it because that's sort of a foreign concept. It goes against all these principles. But I mean if he can win the league, play almost counter attacking football at times, I mean, then he's, he's probably ticked every box there is. But no, there's no way that City can keep going on like this because you know, that was an unserious performance in the second half and you know we're looking at an Arsenal team that is just not conceding many chances at all. City have conceded at least two goals in the last four games, 10 in total. It's three more than Arsenal have conceded all season in all competitions. So when you're looking at right, what do arrivals have that we don't? Usually defensively, Arsenal have been a little bit better than Liverpool and City, but attacking wise City have maybe been a bit ahead of Arsenal, whereas the golf and the defensive stuff just now is so big that it's going to catch up with them. So they need to sort it out. But I'm not sure how you do that when as he says, Nico Gonzalez, it went from being purely reliant on Rodri to now being purely reliant on Nico Gonzalez in midfield. So they don't quite have the numbers in there to really maintain a sort of physical presence in midfield. And yeah, it sounds like excuses because I've spent a hell of a lot of money, you know, Kovacic is out, Rodri's out and they don't really have another player like that. So as a difficult one.
- [51:01]
Ayo Akumulere
All right, let's leave it there. Jordan, thanks for your time, Chris as well, Charlie and also Dan as well. It's been a full house today, but lots to talk about and thank you guys here for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.
- [51:16]
Podcast Host/Producer
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stavro and Jay Beal. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and Aiddy Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast podcast is an athletic media company production.
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