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Ryan Reynolds
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David Ornstein
Credit.
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Ryan Reynolds
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- [01:32]
David Ornstein
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [01:38]
Phil Hay
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. Arsenal's search for a sporting director is set to conclude this month. Who is the ideal candidate for the role? And could this appointment be the missing link to help Arsenal finally end their wait for a Premier League title? Right with us today we have our football correspondent David Ornstein and Phil Hay, lead writer of the Athletic FC newsletter as well. Good to have you with us, gents. Right David, last week you reported Arsenal are looking to conclude their search for a new sporting director by the end of March. I gotta say the timing is really interesting considering I do left halfway through the season and obviously what it's looking likely that Arsenal might potentially not win the Premier League this season.
- [02:27]
David Ornstein
Yeah, it's a critical moment for Arsenal, there's no doubt about that. We've seen that this season so far has not gone how they would like it to in the Premier League and in the domestic cup competitions, but they still have hope in the Champions League, let's not forget. And they'll want to keep the focus of Mikel Arteta, his staff and players squarely on that, despite this sporting director process. But it has been quite some time now since Edu departed. I think he tweaked his Instagram biography to say gardening leave for now, or something to that effect, which has been noticed among the Arsenal fan base. I, I'm not sure if it ended on the best terms there, but the show goes on and this is a, a massive appointment for Arsenal. It's huge in the context of their day to day operations, the immediate term, the medium term, and they'd like to think the longer term as well. It concerns the transfer market, but not only that, you know, the first team, the academy, the pathways, staff data, cutting edge modern club things that a sporting director, technical director, director of football tends to have responsibility for. The women's team as well, tends to be part of that umbrella for most of these operators in the modern age. Sometimes it's delineated out between different personnel and so in the background for what's going on with Arsenal on the pitch. But very well aware that things not going to plan make this pretty seismic. And what we reported last week is that their, their hope, their intention, their plan would be to make an appointment in March. We're in that month now, so it could be really soon if that does get executed. But it is also hard to put timelines on these things because it can change. They might not find exactly what they want at this particular mom. The negotiations might drag out, interviews could take longer. Perhaps candidates that they want to speak to aren't available to be spoken to yet, but it's good for them to have an idea in their head and then of those potential options that they've been looking at. We gave a number of names, the likes of Jason Ato, who took over from Edu on an interim basis. He was his assistant before, so he's been occupying the role for the time being then. In no particular order other than alphabetical, you've got Dan Ashworth.
- [04:54]
Phil Hay
Yeah, yeah.
- [04:55]
David Ornstein
Andrea Berta, Roberto Alabe, Thiago Scuro. These are all among the names. I'm not saying there aren't other names, but they're among the names that have either been discussed and considered internally or they've held conversations with them. And in. And amongst those discussions, I'm aware that perhaps the ship might have sailed for some of them and they're not going forward with them. We're Just sort of reporting the information that we've sourced to this point. I also mentioned in the report that it's not expected to be Luis Campos who's been linked with the role. And yeah, we'll get stuck into some of these names and the process and the club, but really they, they need to get this right. Post Edu. That's not saying Edu was some kind of magician. There were many people involved in Arsenal's rise and their sort of progress and Mikel Arteta at the core of that as well. Edu did a lot of good things. There may be some stuff that he didn't do so well, but that doesn't detract from the fact that Arsenal will want to nail this.
- [05:52]
Phil Hay
Yeah, cheers for that, David. Phil, look, recent seasons, you know, we've seen changes at Liverpool, Manchester United, Chelsea, Manchester City, you know, executive level. I just wonder how crucial these appointments actually are for Premier League clubs. Of course, you know, you've got those mid table clubs, but when you're thinking about that top tier of clubs aiming for European football every season. But also whoever comes in has to also think of the club's legacy. I mean, these appointments are so important, especially at the level of, you know, director of football or sporting director.
- [06:24]
Ayo Akimolere
Well, David laid out the remit of a sporting director there and you only have to listen through that list to realise that it's absolutely vast. I think there's often a misconception that it's predominantly transfers and that's a really, really big part of the job. But they have so much responsibility that these guys are essential cogs in the machine and no major club thinks that they can do without them. Certainly no serious club operates without a sporting director or similar anymore, or without departments of analysts and scouts and recruitment specialists and so on. And to take the transfer market al, it's simply too complex and expansive for a manager or a head coach to run that show themselves. You do still get coaches and managers who like to accept transfer influence and some more than others. I mean, Klopp at Liverpool, Guardiola at Manchester City, Arteta at Arsenal, for sure they're not people you dictate to. And I think the clubs around them, the senior employees around them will know that they have to operate with a certain amount of diplomacy and I guess to a degree to remember the pecking order depending on who your coach or your manager is. But at the same time, and again, focusing on transfers here, you do need a credible, competent figure who can pick up the phone to get a deal going. And that's not just incoming transfers either. If you want a player out, you have to understand the market. You have to know which clubs might be interested, you have to know who you can call. You have to know how you'd structure a deal, which compromises you can make to get it over the line. A manager like Arteta just does not have time to deal with that process and to manage that process. He can get involved, don't get me wrong. So if there's a player that he wants, Mikel Marino, a good example from the summer, then he can influence that and he can sell the move. But you have to have somebody who's dedicated to the job of director of football or sporting director. And as I say, just to go back to David's original point, the job goes way beyond player recruitment. It's succession planning for managers, for coaches, contractual matters. It's basically a managerial role in its own right these days, for sure.
- [08:24]
Phil Hay
David, when it comes to Arsenal and picking a new sporting director, who's behind that, just take us behind the curtain a little bit, give us a sense of, you know, who's that team that has to look for this new sporting director? Is Mikel Arteta included, for instance?
- [08:36]
David Ornstein
It's a great question. The process that clubs go through now is normally aided by external support. Some of these firms are excellent. They've been through it many times before, more times than a club has. And, you know, because he like to think that the sporting director, director, football technical director, is a constant for a considerable period. So Arsenal did things in a. In a pretty common and professional way. It's been really discreet and quiet for. For many weeks and months and sort of under the radar. And I think they're quite proud of that. It moves to my understanding now, to a point where they're kind of whittling down the candidates and. And the options and possibilities. They're kind of taking them onto an interview stage with Tim Lewis, who's obviously a director who's been very prominent, increasingly so, at Arsenal. Richard Garlick, who moved from, I think, head of football operations to managing director after Vinay Venkatesham left the club last summer as chief executive. And then, yep, they are joined by Mikel Arteta in speaking to these candidates. It's a process that will be overseen, of course, by KSE Kroenke Sports Entertainment, the ownership at Arsenal, and no final decisions made without their approval. And no doubt they'll be closely involved in this situation because it is. It is vital. There have been reports of leading candidates and favourites But I don't think it's quite that clear cut and, and something to straddle. What Phil and I have said is that Arsenal will need to, in these days and weeks ahead, decide exactly what profile of individual they want. Is it more the all encompassing sporting director which Edu moved to, by the way, from? I think technical director. I can't remember his exact title. Or do they want a more technical director? I'll just give you one example. You know, what we've seen at Manchester United with Dan Ashw and Newcastle Prior and the reporting that has come out of it sort of indicate that Dan Ashworth being portrayed as some transfer guru is not quite accurate. You know, his skill set lies largely operationally building systems and structures and processes. Maybe that lends itself to a slightly different title, maybe operations role, you know, really strong on logistics and academy and women's and maybe have somebody else who's a specialist in recruitment ahead of recruitment, who can really take care of that. And first team matters. That's going to be a really interesting dynamic to see play out. I think Tottenham have got a technical director in Johan Langer, there's a head of recruitment in Rob McKenzie. There's no sporting director figure. So I do think in these sort of final deliberations we're all saying the new sporting director of Arsenal and it may well be that, but, you know, the exact form and remit it takes is something that we're not privy to. And they also know that, you know, reporting this and my job and responsibility as well can have impacts on candidates and people in positions and potential notice periods that they might have to serve or, or payments that have might have to be made to get somebody out of somewhere or in the case of say an Ashworth type figure, if they're already available or out of a club, what is their gardening leave situation? And these are all things that Arsenal will be working through now and I presume pretty meticulously.
- [11:58]
Phil Hay
Yeah, Phil. And please, David, follow on from this as well, if you have any insight. But just thinking about the timing of these kind of things and how significant it is to get it done before the end of the season, especially with a transfer window looming. But also like the choreography of it must be interesting, especially when certain clubs like to plan quite far ahead down the line. I think James Nicholas did a piece on Jason Iter and he was saying Arsenal are a club that like to plan a couple of years down the line. I mean, that could have a bearing on who they bring in, surely?
- [12:27]
Ayo Akimolere
Well, again, almost any serious Club does that. You know, it's no longer a case of plan for the next window. It does tend to be planned for the next two or three or beyond. And with the scale of academy recruitment now, you're almost planning for seasons five to 10 years down the line. I think what I'd be interested to know from David about this appointment at Arsenal is how much you think the new sporting director, if it is sporting director or whatever the setup is and the titles become, how much are they going to be able to. Or how much will they be asked to stamp their own. Their own kind of philosophy of the job on Arsenal? And how much will they be asked to just inherit what's already there? Because it's not as if Arsenal are dysfunctional. I get that there's the debate constantly about number nine, and I get that it looks like they've been left short this season, in part by injuries more than anything else, but will there be scope for wholesale change? Or will it, I guess, largely stay the way it's been for a while? Because I get the feeling that these guys like to come in, in and very much make it their own department with their own style.
- [13:29]
David Ornstein
This point is absolutely fascinating because whatever Arsenal supporters and the wider media and public think about this season, they've still had a strong campaign. They're in a much better position than they were in the late years of Wenger, the Emory years and the early years of Arteta. They're genuinely competitive. They're back in the Champions League, a competition that they are still alive in very much. And they've got a doubleheader against PSV that they'll hope to come through and play Athletico or Real Madrid in the quarterfinals. So we need to bear that in mind. A lot has gone right in Arsenal. On the flip side, it's all relative. And so when you get to the point of being competitive and you see Arsenal, in some people's eyes, fall this time of year in the Premier League, and they're not figuring in the later stages of domestic cup competitions, and you scrutinize with honesty and balance the recruitment last summer of sort of two more defensively minded players, and then you used up your two loan slots domestically on a goalkeeper who doesn't play and a winger who hasn't made the impact so far that he's made previously in his career, and you see Edu has departed, and you look at the numbers coming through from the academy and say, yeah, the ones that are coming through look outstanding, but. But there are not really many more. So that shows not everything is perfect. I mentioned on the women's side, there's been managerial change there. Not all is rosy in the garden. So then comes your decision on this person that's going to lead you forward. It's hugely important. But you've got the ownership, you've got, on behalf of the ownership, Tim Lewis, the board of directors, you've got Richard Garlick as managing director clubside, and they'll feel that they're running things quite well and they want to improve, but how much power do they want to let go to this individual and authority? That's for them to decide. You've then got Mikel Arteta as manager, formerly head coach. So he's grown in power in his time there. He's done very well and he's created Arsenal into the force that they are now. It wouldn't be unusual for a manager to have a view on who should come in if they're in before the sporting director, because this is going to be a day to day point of contact. This is going to be who you're working with on transfers and young players and training methods and travel and contracts and everything else that Phil and I have laid out. Really, that person may hold a key to your success as a manager, your career, your legacy. You know, you may want somebody that can bring you the players now to take that step forward and get over the line. You might not be thinking about 10 years time if you're a manager or a head coach at your club. And I think Edu and Mikel Arteta dovetailed really well and they've both spoken highly of each other. I'm sure there was tension, but that in their eyes, I'm sure would be healthy tension. So bringing somebody in with all of that context, who goes and rips it up when it doesn't necessarily need to be ripped up, may be a risk. There may be bits that do need to be ripped up and someone will need to have the personality, the experience, the connections to do what needs to be done. I do think Arsenal will obviously be looking for somebody who's decisive, who can drive this forward with real authority, with, with experience, with connections, with an appreciation of Arsenal and what they stand for and their values, but not fearing bringing some positive change, creating a more winning environment, if that's what they're seeking. And that's why when you look at some of those names, you know, even though they're quite diverse and even though there might be more in this, and I'm not saying I've. I'VE got the answer you can understand one that they maybe don't know exactly what they're looking for just yet because they appear to be different personalities with different skill sets and backgrounds and they've even got the internal option as well there in Jason Ato continuity, somebody that knows the club and the system inside out and, and wants the job. And then they'll also in that maybe want to avoid just having a yes man who in theory could implement what you want doing as the hierarchy or the manager. That can just basically be a helping hand that ensures that you are the, the key people going forward. I was speaking to somebody before recording this who said that there are not a vast number of, you know, really high quality sporting directors available who you would readily turn and say that is the one for Arsenal that feels right from, from everything that they offer, from what they want in their career, from their ability to take what's a pretty good operation to that next level.
- [18:16]
Phil Hay
Okay, well, next we'll discuss the role of Mikel Arteta alongside a new sporting director.
- [18:23]
David Ornstein
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with I.O. accemolere.
- [18:27]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [19:38]
David Ornstein
Sound good?
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Ryan Reynolds
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David Ornstein
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- [20:15]
David Ornstein
You were saying earlier about you're not obviously not giving up on the titles until it's mathematically impossible, but in your heart. Over my dead body. I said over your dead body. Yeah, but in your heart, do you really think you can do it? If not, I'll go home, guys.
- [20:31]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah.
- [20:31]
Phil Hay
We saw Mikel Arteta last week, say it would be over his dead body that he'd concede the Premier League title race until it's mathematically done. I mean, look, I mean, a lot of people are thinking it's mathematically done, or pretty much done anyway. But you spoke about it briefly, David Edu leaving, what was it, November? Now that must have been quite a big blow to Arsenal and also Mikel Arteta and as we've potentially seen, you know, dented what they thought would be a great future together.
- [21:02]
David Ornstein
Yeah, definitely was not ideal. It was at a point in the campaign where you would imagine a sporting director is looking towards the January transfer window and even the summer. In a season when the consensus has been that Arsenal, having come close to the Premier League title two years consecutively, should go that one step further now. And Edu has been such a central figure to it all that it was a shock. Now, there had been rumors and whispers, but it largely took the club by surprise that he was actually going to go. I think in normal circumstances you'd be looking at a new contract, which I think may run out at the end of this season, but I don't know for sure because he's on gardening leave for a period. And so, yeah, Mikel Arteta lost one of his closest colleagues within the club and they had done some very good work together. Now, much of the January plans, whatever they were, won't have changed regardless of Edu being in the club or not. Would Arsenal have got a. A striker over the line or done something about the loan situation to free up a slot that would allow them to maneuver in a way that they ended up not doing. Who knows? There are so many factors involved in this. Should he have done more in his role because he was there in the summer to address that? You know, you can argue these situations in so many different ways, but I don't think the timing was good at all. And I'm still surprised that, you know, even if you're going on to a project such as the Marinakis Group, which we still await confirmation on, and I know whenever you leave, you're going to have a gardening leave gnosis period. So perhaps if you left in the summer, it then frustrates all parties because you won't be able to work until the turn of the next year. But I just think the position Arsenal are in, the importance of Edu, it took me back because I would have expected that sort of thing to be done in the summer when you're not in competition. But at the same time, it wasn't a project that was built on one person. Arteta himself is fundamental. He has his staff around him. That I'm sure, input. You had Jason Ato there, who had been doing increasing amounts of work with Edu, traveling and working on deals together. He's somewhat experienced, skilled, multilingual and so on. You said James McNicholas wrote a piece about him recently. People can check that out. You then have others in the equation. So James King was a legal counsel at Arsenal. He went off to the PFA and then he's come back to Arsenal in a director of Football operations role, which was vacated by Richard Garlick when Richard Garlick switched to managing director when Vinay Venkatesham left. And then, you know, there are others in this operation, too. There's a recruitment team that hasn't changed, to my knowledge. You've got Tim Lewis, as I said, you've got the ownership who have done pretty well since taking over full ownership of the club after that sort of Cronky Usmanov standoff for. For many years. But what it does do is, is bring Mikael Arteta's sort of authority to the fore. It's a conversation that we've had that many have externally. And I guess full credit to Michael Arteta for what's happened so far. But also at the same time, it's just naturally a position that needs to be managed by the club. It is a little bizarre, perhaps, to hear that Arteta is. Is part of the sort of interview panel for a sporting director, because the traditional Continental model is that that the sporting director appoints the head coach and manager. And you know, there will be some people looking at this and saying, and I think there are no doubt in the industry saying whoever comes in, Mikel Arteta is going to be their boss. That's a conclusion that people might want to draw. Arsenal will obviously look to avoid that and just create a grown up collegiate relationship. But really the sporting director is to be, is meant to be the boss of the manager, the head coach. And they'll need to get that right. And so really it's on the Kronkies on the board and the ownership to get this right and react to the blow of, I think that's fair to say, of losing Edu and the sort of trauma of it to maybe doing better in the future, making an inspired appointment that can take Arsenal onto a new level.
- [25:19]
Phil Hay
Yeah, for sure, Phil, you know, this is, you know, it's a job that requires you, as we're hearing, to work close with the manager. But I'm just thinking about, you know, your time covering Leeds, you know, Victor Otter and different managers. Any insight on how those went and how easy or hard it is for these two sort of minds to come together.
- [25:43]
Ayo Akimolere
I saw that very close hand and it was my first experience of covering a club with a sporting director or a director of football, as Alter was. He took the job there in 2017 and Leeds hadn't had a director of football or anybody in that mould prior to him arriving. And they, I think in a lot of respects back in that era were a little bit late to the party in modernizing. But English football generally has been quite late to join the sporting director or director of football bandwagon. It's been going on in Europe and other places for far longer or has been more fashionable there for longer than it has here. For a time with Orter it worked well and there was a particular purple patch where it worked very, very well. When they were promoted in 2020, everything just seemed to come together. Then luckily it got out of hand and then fairly badly out of hand. Too many decisions went wrong. There was too much of a breakdown in the understanding between Auto and the boardroom, which again is kind of fundamentally crucial relationship. In the same way as director of football and manager need to see eye to eye and need to get on to a certain degree. I think when you reach that point, as it did with Leeds, the season when they were relegated from The Premier League, 20, 22, 23, it kind of has to end. But Alter, I think is a good case in demonstrating the point about the scope of the job. He had to manage Marcelo Bielsa along with other coaches. But Bielsa was the most challenging, the most dramatic hand in of the managers that they employed. He had to find transfer targets, he had to go after transfer targets. He had to have a hand in the academy and all the things that we've mentioned, contractual negotiations and footballing operations and at most teams, any team the size of Leeds or bigger, that's a really, really wide scope. It's a really wide remit. He's also, I think, a great example of the way in which sporting directors can no longer hover in the background or hide behind other people. I mean, Otter did have a way of making himself front and center. He's really emotional guy, flamboyant guy. He had run ins with the home crowd at games at Ellen Road, but even so, the scrutiny on him was extremely intense. And when mistakes were made, they were often laid at his door. And that's the reality now. These guys are not auxiliary figures. They can't just stand back when the flak drops and watch it land on the manager or head coach. Some of it is going to hit them too. And that will be the case for whoever comes in after Edu.
- [28:04]
David Ornstein
Arsenal, as Eddie Howe talked about with Dan Ashworth just ahead of his departure, Sporting director's work is sort of seen over a number of years and it's laying foundations that in many cases you don't even see to the outside world. And the repercussions are much further down the line. And that doesn't quite dovetail with the modern era and the fans who seem to laud these sporting directors as heroes and villains. And we've seen that at Arsenal with Rao San Lehi and with Edu and elsewhere in the industry with a Dan Ashworth, a Paul Mitchell. There's guys in Germany, in Spain, Monchi and Luis Campos and the list goes on. And so Arsenal will ultimately be doing a huge amount of work on just finding the right fit for them and their ambitions. And who knows, it might not be the one that fans want, but that doesn't mean it will be the right or wrong decision. That's going to take a lot longer for us to find out out.
- [29:04]
Phil Hay
Yeah, I mean, while you're talking about Edu, if you think about Edu leaving to join Evangelos Maranakis and the multi club structure from Norman Forest, I mean, I know he's got other teams for sure. I mean, do you think this is what appeals To I guess, what a modern day sporting director might want to do or be part of, because Leeds themselves are looking like they're going to be part of that structure as well at some point.
- [29:27]
Ayo Akimolere
Well, I don't know if fad is the right word, but. But multi club groups, multi club systems are flavour of the month and have been for a while now. You've got numerous ownership groups who are trying to create them. And I guess for any sporting director, it's probably more of a professional challenge to be inside one that does have broader remit and broader reach. Dare I say, it probably pays a little bit more money too, depending on who it is that's employing you. I mean, with Edu, I've always been interested in what his prime motivation was for going, you know, was it a more appealing job with Marinakis and the multi club group that Forester in? Was the salary too tempting? Or actually, latterly, were Arsenal not set up in the way that a sporting director or somebody like Edu would particularly want? And the only reason I asked that question, the last question, is because of exactly what David was saying about the power that Arteta now has at the Emirates. You sort of get the impression that certainly with transfers, you know, if Arteta is the tail, then he's kind of wagging the dog and you can say justifiably so, given how good he's been for them, but he's never going to allow himself to be told what to do on the transfer front or I don't get the sense that he would and just made me question whether or not Edu felt his own power was diminishing slightly or was likely to diminish more and more as time went on. I suppose in those circumstances it's quite hard for a sporting director to build their own empire, if you want to put it like that. Perhaps he'll feel like he'll have a bit more clout. Forest and Maranakis. But in terms of multi club groups, it's the direction of travel for sure. And people who know their stuff in football are usually very, very good at seeing which way the wind is blowing.
- [31:09]
Phil Hay
Okay, nice one, Phil. Well, next let's talk about who those front runners are to become Arsenal's next sporting director.
- [31:22]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [32:54]
David Ornstein
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Acumalera.
- [33:00]
Phil Hay
Yeah David, let's look at some of the names in the frame to replace Adu. Let's start with a man in the role on the interim basis, Jason Aito. Would January have a bearing on what Arsenal do with him moving forward?
- [33:14]
David Ornstein
Yeah, unless you're on the inside, you don't know how much license and authority and mandate that somebody who's in the role on an interim basis has been given. And while social media is quick to form judgments, as has happened with Jason Ato in in sections of X and other platforms, the reality can be quite different. You know, the the ultimate call is coming from the top, from ownership and board at every club and somebody that's holding fort when the sporting director has, you know, stepped aside just a matter of months earlier. I think it's a little bit harsh to pin the lack of a striker signing on Jason Aito. He has been there for a long time and he's been influential and you could say it doesn't matter as soon as you get the opportunity and your feet under the table. Not that he's had much time to do that. You can make impact and I'm sure he did explore opportunities. You know, reports came out on Sesko. The exact accuracy I'm not sure, but no doubt there were various avenues that he and others at Arsenal looked at. Obviously there was the Ollie Watkins situation. Villa maybe opened the door to a possible deal at 60 million pounds which Arsenal weren't willing to pay, and it didn't really go much further than that. They sold Duran from Villa and, and Ollie Watkins was there to stay. Other than that, you know, unless we're privy to their plans, which definitely are quite big for the summer, they, they want to bring in a, a striker. They've got other work to do to the squad, whether it be another wide attacker, a number two goalkeeper, maybe even a number three. Let's see what happens at left back, two departing central midfielders. Is Zubamendi going to get done and dusted and come in? So, with all of that in mind and the budgets involved, and I know people don't like to hear this because in the case of Arsenal, the financial results that they've released are good, but they do still have to comply with PSR and the financial fair play rules in the Premier League. And UEFA doesn't mean, because they look in rude financial health, that you can suddenly go and just open the checkbook and do what you want. There are restrictions. And so in the sense of not being able to get maybe what you would ideally have liked in the January window, you could say it was, it was sort of brave of them. I know some people would disagree with this to keep their powder dry, and I know that it may come at an expense of, of a lack of, of trophies, but there's no guarantee that somebody that they had bought in, in January would have given them and guided them to those trophies and then they could have made expensive mistakes. The summer is the big judgment and Jason Aito will be, you know, as will others who are in the mix, be presenting why he's the right person. And Phil did say that these, these people, key cogs, you know, look at Monchi at Aston Villa, the two sporting directors at Chelsea now being presented as the owners of as front and center. So I don't think that can be labeled at Jason Ato's door, but does he have enough clout and, and kudos and gravitas and the skills and expertise to take this on? That's a decision for them to make.
- [36:31]
Phil Hay
Okay, Phil, another name has been thrown in the ring. Dan Ashworth. Obviously we know what happened at Manchester United, but you look at his background with Brighton, the fa, Newcastle, of course, and also a connection to Richard Garlick, you can understand why his name's in that mix. But I'm sitting here as An Arsenal fan thinking, is he the right fit for Arsenal?
- [36:52]
Ayo Akimolere
Well, I mean, his team at Old Trafford was a complete washout. It took as long to appoint him and to get that over the line as Ashworth was in the job in the end. And it's a little bit hard to say for sure if that's his fault or United's because frankly, there isn't very much that Ineos seems to have done well that United to, to this point, apart from cutting costs, which it seems to seems to specialize in. But before recording, I had a good read back through the the long inside article that we did on his exit from Old Trafford. It was done by Adam Crafton and, and Laurie Whitwell doesn't paint the picture of a man with great dynamism, whether that's fair or not. It's a little bit like I said earlier, unless the structure that David talked about, where you separate out a sporting director who really covers logistics and then have a head of recruitment or somebody else who heads up transfers, you need a sporting director, director of football who's strong at networking, who has good and big ideas, who reads the market effectively and is, is kind of capable at spinning lots of plates. And the article did leave me wondering whether or not that's really him. You know, is that Ashworth's strength? But it's not as if he hasn't had good stints in his career. I mean, you referenced a few there and he definitely has. It just would be a risk for Arsenal because if he was to go in and it didn't work out, people would look at his four or five months at Old Trafford and say, you know, really, how much more of a red flag did you want? Want?
- [38:19]
Phil Hay
Yeah. Okay, Quickly, David, another couple of names. Let's start with Atletico Madrid's sporting director Andrea Berta, and also Real Sociedad's Roberto Olabe, who are also on the short list. Now we know what's happening at Atletico. I'm looking like challenging for La Liga this season. And also a sporting director that's actually turned the fortunes of the club from an old group of players to a much more dynamic new group of players. And of course Sociedad. We know the connections between Arsenal and Sociedad, Marino, Zubamendi, you know, the list goes on. I mean, what, what are the likelihoods of these two? Are they solid candidates?
- [38:55]
David Ornstein
Yeah, just to be clear for people listening, I, I, we haven't referred to it as a short list. These are among the names that Arsenal have discussed, considered internally or Spoken to. And it remains to be seen what the final shortlist will be in terms of Andrea Berta. He. He's been at Athletico Madrid for a long time, seems to have done a pretty good job job. He left, I think, at the turn of the year and is available when you speak to people around the industry. They say that he's been in London conducting a lot of meetings, learning English for his next opportunity where wherever that may be, and that he's constantly, you know, putting his name in the frame for opportunities because he's clearly competent and experienced. Now, you should look over at his time at Athletico Madrid more closely to, to be able to judge in terms of the relationship with Simeone, with the president, who's also very heavily involved in recruitment. What Berta did, I don't know for certain, but he definitely seems to be a name that's in and around these big opportunities. And so that's why Arsenal will be be looking at it closely. In terms of Alabe, I. I broke the news that he would be leaving Sociedad at the end of the season. He's clearly very capable in terms of his work at first team level, at academy level, in the transfer market, of structuring a club. And he will know Mikel Arteta. I think he signed him as a. His career. And you mentioned the trading that has taken place between Arsenal and Real Sociedad. That may continue with Zubamendi, but from a number of conversations I've had, he's looking not to take anything until the summer at the very earliest. Maybe he would look to take a break after coming out of a long stint with Sadad and therefore there are some suggestions that the timings might not work on, on him and this I. I'm not actually aware of him having spoken to Arsenal, but definitely that was one that may have been discussed in the early and so, yeah, it sounds from, from reports in particular in Italy that, that and conversations I've had that maybe Berta is, is one of the more advanced candidates. But I don't, I don't want to say that someone is favorite or someone is top because that can change. And as I said on Alabe, the indication you get is maybe, maybe it won't be him, but all important names for them to mull over.
- [41:18]
Phil Hay
Yeah, definitely. Let's see who the new sporting director at Arsenal will be. Gents, they thank you so much for your time and also thank you all for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.
- [41:26]
David Ornstein
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast, the producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavrou and Jay Beale. The executive producer was Aidy Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.