Arsenal's statement win & is Ancelotti in trouble?

Summary

The Athletic FC Podcast Summary

Episode: Arsenal's Statement Win & Is Ancelotti in Trouble?
Release Date: April 9, 2025
Host: Ayo Akinwolere
Guests: Guillermo Rai (Real Madrid Writer), Thomas Hill (Spanish Football Editor), Lopez Manchero, James Manicolas (Arsenal Correspondent)

---

1. Introduction

In this episode of The Athletic FC Podcast, host Ayo Akinwolere delves into Arsenal's stunning victory over European champions Real Madrid in the first leg of their Champions League quarter-final tie. With expert insights from Guillermo Rai, Thomas Hill, and James Manicolas, the discussion navigates through Arsenal's impressive performance, Real Madrid's struggles, and the future of Real Madrid's manager, Carlo Ancelotti.

---

2. Arsenal’s Statement Victory

James Manicolas opens the discussion, highlighting Arsenal's unexpected dominance over Real Madrid. Describing Arsenal as "huge underdogs," James praises their performance as one of the best under Mikel Arteta since his tenure began.

• James Manicolas [03:27]: "Arsenal came into this tie as huge underdogs and ended up producing one of the best performances under Mikel Arteta."

Ayo Akinwolere recounts the electrifying atmosphere at Emirates Stadium:

• Ayo Akinwolere [02:25]: "It was one of the biggest and best nights in the Emirates Stadium's history. A huge step forward for this team and for this manager."

The standout moments included Declan Rice scoring two beautiful free kicks and Mourinho's third goal, which cemented Arsenal's commanding 3-0 lead.

Guillermo Rai adds context to Arsenal's offensive prowess:

• Guillermo Rai [03:43]: "Arsenal had 11 shots on target, the joint most Real Madrid have faced in a Champions League knockout game."

---

3. Real Madrid’s Struggles and Defensive Weaknesses

The conversation shifts to Real Madrid's current season challenges. Guillermo Rai emphasizes the defensive frailties that plagued Real Madrid:

• Guillermo Rai [04:42]: "The lack of defensive strength is a big topic this season, for Carlo Ancelotti. They haven't overcome this problem."

Thomas Hill corroborates these insights, noting the instability in Real Madrid's defense:

• Thomas Hill [05:17]: "David Alaba at left-back felt risky against Saka. The team's defense has been shaky, highlighted by injuries and a lack of intensity."

The Spanish media has been critical, focusing on the players' performances over Ancelotti’s tactics:

• Guillermo Rai [09:30]: "The main focus is on the players more than on Carlo Ancelotti. The lack of intensity has drawn significant criticism."

---

4. Arsenal’s Confidence and Future Prospects

Ayo Akinwolere explores the implications of the victory for Arsenal's morale and future in the Champions League. Despite a challenging season marked by injuries and a lack of a recognized center forward, Arsenal's performance against Real Madrid signals a potential resurgence.

• Ayo Akinwolere [10:42]: "Arsenal managed to put up a very convincing performance against Real Madrid despite numerous injuries."

Highlighting key players stepping up:

• Ayo Akinwolere [11:18]: "Marino at center forward is astonishing, Jakub Kivior has performed well, and young Miles Lewis showed remarkable confidence."

This victory not only boosts Arsenal's confidence but also paints them as serious contenders should they maintain their form in the second leg at the Bernabéu.

---

5. Real Madrid’s Transfer Plans

The podcast shifts focus to Real Madrid's upcoming summer transfer strategy. Guillermo Rai discusses the club's conservative approach despite their financial clout.

• Guillermo Rai [14:08]: "They are pretty conservative, studying all options, focusing on key positions like left back and center back."

Potential targets include Trent Alexander-Arnold from Liverpool, aiming to reinforce the defense. However, logistical challenges such as stadium renewal projects constrain the club’s spending:

• Guillermo Rai [14:24]: "The renewal of the stadium is something to bear in mind, affecting their transfer budget."

Thomas Hill adds that Real Madrid prioritizes long-term stability over immediate overhauls:

• Thomas Hill [16:23]: "Defense is lacking, but their recruitment has been youth-driven and conservative, requiring players they are convinced of their potential."

---

6. The Future of Carlo Ancelotti

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around Real Madrid coach Carlo Ancelotti and his future with the club. Following the disappointing performance against Arsenal, questions arise regarding his tenure.

• Guillermo Rai [21:53]: "Real Madrid managers are judged on La Liga and above all the Champions League. Ancelotti’s management is being tested."

Thomas Hill reflects on Ancelotti's legacy and current challenges:

• Thomas Hill [21:19]: "Ancelotti has been the perfect manager to keep harmony among stars, but this season is his most difficult at Madrid."

Speculation about potential successors includes Xabi Alonso and internal figures like Tinedine Thian:

• Guillermo Rai [25:15]: "Xabi Alonso is the favorite, but Tinedine Thian is always a possibility given his close ties with the club."

Fan Sentiment: While Thomas Hill acknowledges the love for Ancelotti:

• Thomas Hill [26:27]: "Madrid fans would be sad to see him leave, but they quickly move on to the next phase."

---

7. Can Real Madrid Overcome the Deficit?

The episode concludes with a speculative discussion on whether Real Madrid can overturn a 3-0 deficit. Both Guillermo Rai and Thomas Hill express cautious optimism, albeit recognizing the historical unlikelihood:

• Guillermo Rai [28:46]: "Real Madrid have the narrative and belief to make it happen, even if it's just 1%."
• Thomas Hill [29:12]: "While it's possible, it's unprecedented since 1975, making it a monumental challenge."

However, the consensus remains that while Madrid possesses the capability, Arsenal's solid performance and Real's internal issues make such a comeback exceptionally difficult.

---

8. Conclusion

Ayo Akinwolere wraps up the episode by highlighting the dual narratives of Arsenal's rise and Real Madrid's potential decline. With significant implications for both clubs in the Champions League and domestic competitions, the episode underscores a pivotal moment in European football.

• Ayo Akinwolere [30:25]: "It's going to be a really exciting second leg."

Listeners are encouraged to stay tuned for further developments as the teams prepare for the decisive second leg in this intriguing Champions League quarter-final tie.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Ayo Akinwolere [02:25]: "One of the biggest and best nights in the Emirates Stadium's history."
• Guillermo Rai [03:43]: "They deserve to lose and they deserve even to concede more goals."
• Thomas Hill [05:17]: "The defense this season has been really shaky."
• Guillermo Rai [09:30]: "There have been rumors on Bini, on Vinithi, but they were in talks for a renewal."
• Thomas Hill [16:23]: "Defense is definitely one of the areas in which that recruitment has been lacking."
• Guillermo Rai [25:15]: "Xabi Alonso is the favorite, and it's something that we have been talking about for quite a while."
• Thomas Hill [29:12]: "While it's possible, it's unprecedented since 1975."

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, providing valuable context and analysis for both Arsenal and Real Madrid supporters.

Transcript

[Ayo Akimolere]

McDonald's meets the Minecraft universe with one of six collectibles and your choice of a Big Mac or 10 piece McNuggets with spicy nether Flame Sauce. Now available with a Minecraft movie meal at participating McDonald's for a limited time. A Minecraft movie only in theaters right.

[Home Depot Advertiser]

Now at the Home Depot Shop. Spring Black Friday savings up to 35% off select appliances plus free delivery from top brands like Samsung. Get tech you can trust to simplify your daily routines from all in one washer dryers to smart refrigerators with family hub. Upgrade your kitchen and laundry with trusted technology from Samsung, ranked number one in customer satisfaction. Get Spring Black Friday appliance savings and free delivery now at the Home Depot. Visit JD power.comawards for more details. Free delivery on appliance purchases of $396 or more offer valid April 3 through April 23 US only. C store online for details.

[TurboTax Advertiser]

This is a message from sponsor Intuit TurboTax Taxes was getting frustrated by your forms. Now Taxes is uploading your forms with a Snap and a TurboTax expert will do your taxes for you. One who's backed by the latest tech which cross checks millions of data points for absolute accuracy. All of which makes it easy for you to get the most money back guaranteed. Get an Expert [e-mail], only available with TurboTax Live full service. Seek guaranteed [e-mail] guarantees.

[Athletic FC Podcast Host]

The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. European champions Real Madrid were rocked by a riveting Arsenal display in the first leg of of their quarter final tie last night.

[Guillermo Rai]

It's three.

[Thomas Hill]

It's Mirinho.

[Ayo Akimolere]

With Madrid facing an uphill task in both the Champions League and La Liga, will they bring in more superstars this summer to bolster their squad? And also, will Carlo Ancelotti still be the man to make it all gel together next season? Alright with us today we have the Athletics Real Madrid writer Guillermoiraj, Spanish football editor Thomas Hill, Lopez Manchero and also Arsenal correspondent James Manicolas as well. James, we have to start with a game against Arsenal. I know you were there last night. Arsenal came into this tie as huge underdogs and also ended up producing, I would say one of the best performances under Mikel Arteta since he took over at the Emirates. Look, Declan Rice's two goals were beautiful. Mourinho's third goal was the icing on the cake. What was the feeling like in the stadium? What was the atmosphere like, it was.

[Athletic FC Podcast Host]

Incredible, I have to say. You know, I was sat in the stands in the north bank last night, and pregame there was a fantastic atmosphere. The stadium was packed 10, 15 minutes before kickoff. Everyone was really anticipating this match. The first half was quite tight, quite tense. You know, there was a sense of really high stakes and there was a nervousness maybe as well in the crowd about that. But in the second half, once those goals started cascading in, particularly those two stunning Declan Rice free kicks, there was a sense of. Of joy, of catharsis and I think of disbelief, maybe a slight sense of, is this really happening? Are Arsenal really 3 nil up here against Real Madrid? The holders, with their history in the competition, it was a fantastic night. One of the biggest and best nights in the Emirates Stadium's history. You know, they haven't won a Premier League since they've been at Emirates Stadium. They haven't won a Champions League before Arsenal, but they have had some big landmark evenings, and this evening goes right up there with them as a huge step forward for. For this team and for this manager.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, fantastic, Guillermo. Look, Arsenal had 11 shots on target yesterday, the joint most Real Madrid have actually ever faced in a Champions League knockout game. Jude Bellingham said at the end of the match, in his post match, you know, they were lucky to lose 3, 0. Do you agree with Jude Bellingham? Because Arsenal had their chances, didn't they?

[Guillermo Rai]

Yeah, I mean, even Jude saved a goal.

[Ayo Akimolere]

It was Declan. Declan Rice's shot, wasn't it? I think, yeah.

[Guillermo Rai]

David Alaba saved another goal over the line. Thibaut Courtois was the best Real Madrid player. So, yeah, I mean, they deserve to lose and they deserve even to concede more goals. I think that the lack of defensive strength is a big topic this season, for real. For Carlo Ancelotti, a matter of discussion inside the dressing room, not only because of the defender's fault, but also because of the lack of intensity from the strikers, is something that they have been concerned since the start of the season, even before the season started, and they haven't been able to overcame this problem. It will be difficult for them to do something different at the Bernabeu, given what we saw yesterday.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, I mean, Thomas, we've seen Madrid do some incredible comebacks against City, against Chelsea in the Champions League, and Guillermo makes a good point there in terms of the defensive solidity. I was watching that match and was trying to figure out how Real Madrid are going to set up. Actually, I thought, you know, after half time, maybe I'd get A better idea of what Real Madrid will do. Maybe they were just seeing what Arsenal were going to do in that first half, but I think something that struck me was that actually when you're asking Real Madrid to defend and then build up on the counter, it's not something they're used to. Almost as if they're very much used to playing on the front foot and nothing else.

[Thomas Hill]

Yeah, totally. And I guess that makes sense given the stars you've got up front, that they would preferred to play on the front foot. I think as Guillermo referenced, the defense this season has been really shaky. You had David Albert at left back there, a position that he hasn't played in ages, possibly since, since he was at Bayern Munich and he's just come back from an ACL injury. So again, that felt a bit, a bit risky against Saka and I think was, you know, he was proven to be one of the, one of the weak points in the team. But ultimately I think it comes down to a team that had a lot of balance last season, even if they, you know, at times were lopsided as well and they, they also suffered injuries. You know, losing cross in the summer I think was big. Mbappe and Vinicius, that's still, you know, Mbappe's kind of coming to his own and, and has equaled Ronaldo's goal tally from his debut season. So he's having a great season. But there are still question marks there about the, the effectiveness up front and particularly their, you know, their front foot pressing, which seems to be totally lacking. So as much as, you know, you'd always back Madrid to make a go of it at the Benobeu, it's hard to see how they, how they overturn that three goal deficit. I suppose if any team can do it, it's them.

[Guillermo Rai]

Now that you have mentioned Alaba, I think the last time I saw him playing as left back it was against Liverpool two seasons ago. It was a time, difficult time for real as well with so many injuries. Because it's not new, it's not something new. They have been suffering these long term injuries for quite a while and Ancelotti asked David Alaba to play as left back that game. Alaba was with this confirmed. I remember talking to his camp, to his entourage and Alaba played with discomfort and he got injured in the 20th minute, more or less, and they were already down by 2 0. So it was like a disaster at that time. I remember quite vividly that moment because they come back at the same game, 5, 2. I think that they. Yeah, but it was also like a tricky, tricky time for. For Carlo as well. Yeah.

[Athletic FC Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Well, James, how on earth do Arsenal keep their heads? Because, you know, I was just thinking, you know, if there's. There's a younger fan base here where this feels like uncharted territory for them, right? Beating Real Madrid, making it to the latter stages of the Champions League, and also for a team of this stature, and I know they're a very young team, this is uncharted territory again. I know 3 nil is a lot, but just like Anfield, magical things happen at the burner battle, especially in the Champions League.

[Thomas Hill]

Yeah.

[Athletic FC Podcast Host]

I think almost any other team, any other club, the Arsenal fans will be feeling like they're in the semi final right after a performance that comprehensive, a win that comprehensive. But with Real Madrid in the Champions League, you can never say never. And there is a kind of magic effect that can happen at the Bernabeu, and this is uncharted water for Arsenal. You know, they. They only returned to the Champions League knockout stages last season. They find themselves back here again. What you'd have to say is they've given themselves a brilliant platform, a brilliant foothold to go on and win this time. And also, you know, if what's going to be needed from them in Spain is. Is maybe more on the defensive side, you know, protecting their lead. They're one of the best qualified teams in Europe to do that. They're so organized, so much structure.

[Dane Brugler]

You.

[Athletic FC Podcast Host]

Yes, they lost Gabrielle to injury, but defensively, they such a good unit that you'd like to think they can go to the bab with a. A lot of confidence. And Madrid, we need to see a different Madrid, you know, a different side of Madrid. And it's going to be a very, very different night, different game. I think the timings of goals are going to be so important in that game. If Madrid can score early, then you can never rule out the psychological impact that can have. But if Arsenal can, you know, keep their structure, keep their shape, keep Madrid at bay for that first half, then they'll be in a super strong position.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, Guillermo, you know, I'm just thinking from. From. From Spain. What are they saying is this. This is part of almost something that's written of Real Madrid season. You know, look at the. What's happening in the league. You know, look at the. The loss of Villarreal, even games against Betis and things like that. You know, Real Madrid just haven't hit the same gear as they did last season.

[Guillermo Rai]

Yeah, definitely. I mean, there have Been already, I think nine defeats and last season there were only two. So you can probably guess what the criticism is, the Spanish press or the Spanish media. I will say that now the main focus is on the players more than on Carlo Ancelotti, because Carlo Ancelotti was criticized before this tie. There were doubts about his continuity. But yesterday, with the attitude of some players, with the lack of intensity, as Thomas and me mentioned before, I think that there have been more criticism on this side of the dressing room. And apart from all of that, always after a big defeat at the Champions League or in the Champions League, there are some journalists who are obsessed with the kilometers covered by the Real Madrid players. And yesterday I think that there was a margin of 11, 12 kilometers. Arsenal ran way more than real and it was like another, I don't know, proof that Real Madrid players didn't do enough. And that's why there was a lot of criticism around them.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Oh, wow. Fantastic. Right, James, just before you go, I'm just thinking what this means for Mikel Arteta and also the fans, really. Obviously it's fair to say that the League. Do you know what I'm going to say? The league's beyond Arsenal this season and I know there's a lot of disappointment there, but know I was looking at that match yesterday and I'm thinking Arsenal have a heap of injuries, no recognized center forward and you know, Bukaya Saka is literally just coming back off a long term injury, yet they managed to put a game up against Real Madrid in a very convincing way. They do go to the burner bow. Now what does that say for the confidence for this team moving forward? And if they do get a result at the Bernabeu to move to the.

[Athletic FC Podcast Host]

Semi finals, it's got to give them a huge lift. I mean, a number of players who you wouldn't expect to be starting came in and contributed really well. Marino, what he's producing at center forward is astonishing and I'm sure everyone, everyone back in Spain is watching with kind of curiosity and amazement to see this guy transform to be a 9 at Arsenal and really, really impressing in that position. Jakub Kivior, another player who you know would not be in Michael Arteta's first choice 11, but stepped in for the injured Gabrielle, performed really well coming off the back of another good performance against Everton at the weekend. So everybody's kind of stepping up. Bukaya Saka coming back from injury yet was influential. Won both free kicks which Declan Rice scored. Miles Lewis, scarely, 18 years of age, you know, playing with such confidence and bravado against Real Madrid, reminiscent in terms of his attitude and his self belief of a young Drew Bellingham, right, who we saw doing a similar thing in his teenage years. So a lot of causes for optimism. And Arsenal will be watching, you know, the other fixtures in the Champions League tonight, and they won't be counting their chickens and thinking we're going to be in that semi final, but they'll certainly be watching with interest. And maybe a season that's been very difficult for Arsenal, that's had injuries, suspensions, costly defeats, issues in the league, transfer frustration, maybe, maybe it could have a glorious ending.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Okay, James, I really appreciate your time. I know you're busy today and also you were at the match last night. I'm surprised you still got a voice. Thanks for joining us on the podcast.

[Athletic FC Podcast Host]

Thanks, guys.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, make sure you check out our dedicated Arsenal podcast, Handbrake off, for more reaction to that victory at the Emirates last night. Right, let's move on because coming up, coming up, we'll look at Madrid's summer transfer plans.

[Athletic FC Podcast Host]

You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akamwalere.

[Dane Brugler]

I'm Dane Brugler. I cover the NFL draft for the Athletic, spending the whole year working on a draft guide. I'm looking at thousands of players putting together hundreds of full scouting reports. All the nitty gritty details, the testing data, the stats, but extensive background research as well. Every journey is a little bit different. I'm on the phone with a lot of these guys. Hey, when did you start playing football? What other sports did you play? Tell me about your family, you know, learning more about these guys as people. Our draft guide picked up the name the Beast because of the crazy amount of information that's included. I have no idea how to quantify the hours I've spent putting it together. I've been covering this year's draft since last year's draft. There is a lot in the Beast that you simply can't find anywhere else. You can get the Beast and all the great coverage my colleagues do by subscribing to the Athletic. You can do [e-mail] subscribe.

[Ayo Akimolere]

We discussed on the podcast not too long ago that Real Madrid are working to close in on a deal for Trent Alexander Arnold from Liverpool as a free agent this summer. But you know, what other business are they looking to do this summer? I mean, surely defensive, there's got to be a few more additions at that point.

[Guillermo Rai]

They have this strategy that could sound like a bit strange given that Real Madrid is the club who have earned the most money I think last season, but they are pretty conservative. They look at the market, it's obvious they study all the options they have and obviously they are working on this Trent Alexander Arnold deal. They are also looking at the left back, at center back positions. We also reported, Mario Cortegana reported that there were some internal discussions regarding Martin Thubimendi or the midfield. So obviously they are studying how to re force the team because there is obviously a lack of players in key positions and it has been a nightmare for Ancelotti this season. That's why he has asked several times to the board that they really need to sign and even within the board or the executive part of the club, they agree that they really need some reinforcements. But the financial power of the club has been a bit, is not destroyed obviously, but the renewal of the stadium is something that we should bear in mind. And given all of that, I think Real Madrid, the point of view, Real Madrid's point of view is okay, let's, let's look at the market but let's be conservative because we won a Champions League last season with Aurelia and so many as central back, things went quite well even though we didn't have like enough players at key positions.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, but that's quite strange though because like football moves on, people get better. Look at what Barcelona are compared to last season. I mean surely you can't like any major team, rest on your laurels. You know, obviously Trent Alexander Arnold's looking like it's going to be coming in next season potentially. Surely get the scouts out, get what you need because actually which can, if you can connect that defense, that midfield with this incredible attacking talent. I mean the dynasty just keeps going on and on. Surely.

[Thomas Hill]

Yes, it's true that defense is probably the one area that in all that kind of youth driven recruitment. Bellingham, Tremeni, Camavinga, even if there's, you know, the jury is out on, on some of those. We saw Camavinga last night get sent off. I'm not sure he's fully established himself in the way that Madrid fans would have hoped for up front as well. Obviously the, you know, the front line is kind of secured for, for years and years. But yeah, defense is definitely one of the areas in which that recruitment has been lacking. I think Militao, injured at the moment, has quite a few years left ahead of him. Rudiger, you'd say wrong side of 30. Even though he's, he's been great this season asensio has had to be promoted from the Castilla youth team. So, yeah, I think they need to be looking at defence, really. But as Guillermo says, they do adopt a fairly conservative approach to transfers. So it will need to be players that they're really convinced on and really convinced of their potential.

[Guillermo Rai]

I think that the transfer strategy is complicated. It's not easy to say, okay, they are going only for this type of players. I think that for two or three seasons, Real Madrid have been looking at players who have their contracts ended at the end of the season, and that's why they are going for a trend or as they went for, I don't know, David Alaba or Antonio Rudiger, and I think it proved successful. So there is no debate around that. But it's also true that Benitez Jr, Rodrigo Goies, all of these magnificent players, that now they are stars, not yesterday, but you know what I mean? They came from a really good strategy, I will say clever strategy of going to South America or going to some. I will say not top. Top leagues looking for the best young talent. I think they are still doing that. But let's see, what's the next discovery from unique? Let's see. I think that is not something that we say, okay, it's over. They are not doing that because all the clubs are, I think, copying Real Madrid in that sense. Yeah.

[Ayo Akimolere]

There is no conversation about anyone wanting to leave Real Madrid right now, is there? Like Vini, Rodrigo, I mean, Bellingham's obviously established himself there, but, like, I can't imagine Real Madrid are in that situation, being the club that they are. Regardless of how this season ends, where we're going to see a situation where any of those guys leave. Do either of you know anything?

[Guillermo Rai]

I mean, I think that there have been rumors on Bini, on Vinithi, but the latest, I think we publish it is that they were in talks for a renewal. So I wouldn't say that is close to leave. Last season, before the Champions League final, there were also rumors on Rodrigo Goyes. I think that there have been some doubts around both of them because they have been at the club for almost five, six years. So it's a good time to reflect. Okay, what's our role here? Kylian Mbappek arrives. Where are we going? But I think that as it was the first season with Kylian, they all wanted to see how things went and if they were capable of, you know, keep winning because they understood that it could be like another golden era and they wanted to take advantage of that. So let's see now if things go wrong. Yeah, yeah.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Thomas very quickly on Kylian Mbappe. 19 goals and provided one assist in 23 games since January. It's interesting because Vini and Rodrigo haven't hit those highs. So it's almost like, you know, there was a criticism towards Mbappe, he sort of rectified that, but the two guys, either side haven't sort of risen up. Why is that not connecting? Is it just Madrid still trying to find a solution to how these three players work together?

[Thomas Hill]

Yeah, it's a funny one because I think at various points of the season it feels like it's been, you know, even if not in reality, but at least in fans minds, a bit of a battle between Vinicius and Mbappe to be the main man at Madrid. You know, in the first half of the season when Vinicius feels like he's kind of hunting down that, that Ballon d'or which he, you know, eventually lost out on, lost out to Rodri on, you know, he's in incredible form. Thinking about the, those goals, those goals he scores against Borussia Dortmund and then maybe you have a kind of a bit of a shift in that situation. When Mbappe scores the hat trick against Man City, he now feels like he's definitely Madrid's main man. Vinicius yesterday, totally absent. I mean, he has put in some. There's been one or two good performances over the last couple of weeks, but largely in 20, 20, 25, he's been, he's been off the boil, so we'll have to see what happens. But yeah, it's, it's been tricky for Ancelotti, I think, to get the right balance in that, in that front line. I think that's, I think that's proof of it.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Okay, well, let's move on because as we're talking about Ancelotti, let's discuss the future of Carlo Ancelotti at the Bernabeu next.

[Athletic FC Podcast Host]

This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Acumalera.

[Football Commentator]

Through. He's got a player in the middle. It's Hugo Door arriving and he's done it again. The player who loves to score against Real Madrid has scored a goal he's never going to forget because it's four minutes into added time and it surely is the goal that gives Valencia their first win in the Santiago Bernabeu for 17 years. A breakaway from Carlos Corbaran's side and it's Real Madrid one. Valencia too.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Imagine if Real Madrid end this season empty handed. Do we now have to start discussing the future of Carlo Ancelotti.

[Thomas Hill]

Yeah, I guess we do definitely. If, if they end empty handed, Guillermo will know better than me. But certainly, you know, Madrid managers are judged on La Liga, but above all the Champions League, you know, that's their favorite competition. 15 time winners, holders. From my point of view, Ancelotti's always been the perfect, the perfect man to, to get a tune out of these stars. But we are seeing the real limits, I think of his, of his management this season. I mean he's being tested to, to his real limits with, with the injury crisis, with perhaps a lack of, a lack of Ford planning from, from the board when it comes to transfers, as, as we were saying. So yeah, it's, I mean it's shaping up to be one of his, one of his most difficult, if not the most difficult season at Madrid. And from here until the end of the season, it's, you know, it's hard to see how they, how they win in some of those competitions. Barca look, you know, way ahead of them in terms of pace in La Liga. Even before that, that May Classico Copa del Rey final against Barcelona, again in a one off game against Barcelona, they've lost 52 and 40 this season. So it's, you know, it's, it's tough to see really.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, it's interesting looking at Hansi Flick and Carlo Ancelotti, you've got, I wouldn't say stricter style of coaching in Barcelona where everyone knows their role. And then Carlo Ancelotti has this kind of like, let them play freely, figure out how they operate intuitively on the field. From where I'm sitting anyway, and these are the moments where we see that kind of style maybe struggle, where they've got a lot of injuries, as Thomas has said, where they're playing a team as organized as Arsenal maybe who know their roles really well versus a much more fluid. And also you're asking, you're asking Real Madrid to defend in a way they've never really thought about. You need that to be so tight mentally. Is that some of the faults to maybe the way Carlo Ancelotti manages or coaches his teams?

[Guillermo Rai]

I think, and I'm quoting Carlo Ancelotti here, that there has to be balance in this season. They haven't found the balance probably because the team has changed it, as we have already mentioned, because Kylian Mbappe comes in, because there have been a lot of injuries in the defense. But still I don't see a coach like Hansi Flick at this Real Madrid with a team full of Stars with four consolidated strikers or, you know, offensive players as Juan Bellingham, Rodrigo goes, Benitius Jr. And Kylian Mbappes. It will be really difficult, I think, to make things different. And we only have to come back to the pass. To the Bosque's era, to Finedine Sidan's era. There have been really different coaches to Carlo Ancelotti, we call it in Spain the soft power, the left hand, because they understand the dressing room, all the, you know, all the stars. And I think it's a key point at Madrid. It will be really difficult even that now they are struggling. It will be really difficult to change the method and to change, you know, the approach to all the stars.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Okay, what about his future? And let's say he does leave empty hand, as we just said, and this is unprecedented for the current era of Real Madrid. You know, will we have to start thinking about who might take over Carlo Ancelotti? And are there any whispers? I know we've talked about Xabi Alonso previously and we've written about it on the Athletic. Who else might be in the frame for this?

[Guillermo Rai]

Well, I think it's obvious that Tinedine Thian is always there. Like, if you could ask him, probably he will say that if Real Madrid ask him again, he will think about it because he's always there. He almost goes to the Bernabeu every weekend because I can sometimes I met him by chance, you know, in the surroundings. It's crazy because he's almost in every game. He's a madrista. Almost. This week he posted, we were chatting, Thomas and me, yesterday, about the fact that he posted a strange photo on Instagram with the Real Madrid teaser behind saying Ala Madrid. And it was a bit random because of the time timing. Right. It wasn't, according to sources close to him. It wasn't like something of. From the brand, from, you know, the brand that. Where's the tc? It wasn't related to sponsorship, a sponsorship deal. So it was quite, quite funny. He's always linked to Real and obviously it's an option, but the truth is that the favorite is, as we reported, Xavier Alonso. And it's not something new as well. It's something that we have been. Been talking about for. For quite a while. Yeah.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Okay. Well, Carlo, I like to call him Don Carlo, but, you know, has led Real Madrid to what, 10 titles, including two Champions Leagues since his return. Right. So let's not forget this is his second spell. You know, it's the coach who's won the most trophies at Real Madrid. I think 15 altogether in the club's history. If he left, I don't want to make any assumptions about Real Madrid fans here and wanting glory. If he left, will there be, like, a massive hole in the hearts of Real Madrid fans if Carlo Ancelotti left? Is there. Is there much love for him in that respect?

[Thomas Hill]

Yeah, there's a lot of love. But I do think, sadly, things move on quickly at Madrid. I mean, cold, man. No, I know, but as soon as you were saying that, I was thinking, you know, a lot of Madrid fans, I think it's. It's totally true. They would. They would be sad to see him leave because he is undoubtedly one of the great modern Real Madrid managers. Maybe the. Maybe the greatest. I mean, certainly, you know, surpassed Miguel Munoz in terms of trophies won with the club. I think he's always been the perfect manager to get the right tune out the stars, to keep everyone together in perfect harmony. But I'm sure a lot of Madrid fans would instantly be on to. All right, what's Xabi Alonso's team going to look like? How's he going to set up if he is to be the next manager? So it's. Yeah, it's kind of a heartless world over there.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah. I do wonder what that would look like. And I know we're talking about hypothetical theories here, but if Xabi Alonso was to come into this team, he's a bit more structural with. See how he works with Leverkusen. Is that adaptable to this team, Kylian Mbappe? I mean, it's great what he's doing at Leverkusen, but you haven't got that level of stardom there. To bring that into Real Madrid, that's going to be quite a transition.

[Guillermo Rai]

Well, I wouldn't say that Xavi is like Rafa Benitez, but if we take into account former coaches like Rafa Benitez, it hasn't worked it out. It's the truth. But Xabi Alonso is a modern coach and it could be really different. We have to prove him if he ends up being the coach. So let's see. Carlo, as Thomas said, has been probably the best coach in Real Madrid's history, and it's almost impossible to achieve what he achieved. The bar is so high now that we think that is normal, and that's why we are in this debate, but it's something almost impossible to achieve.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Okay, my final question to both of you, and, you know, I have to ask it as football fans, can Real Madrid bring this back?

[Guillermo Rai]

Well, I think so.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Really?

[Guillermo Rai]

Yeah. Really? Yeah.

[Ayo Akimolere]

A lot of magic at a better bell.

[Guillermo Rai]

That's why I want to be pro them because maybe in one week all what we have said here, we say here in Spain, we call it cado. Cado?

[Thomas Hill]

Yeah. Like expired.

[Guillermo Rai]

Yeah.

[Ayo Akimolere]

You think Real Madrid can bring back a three goal deficit?

[Guillermo Rai]

I mean, even if it's only 1%.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah.

[Guillermo Rai]

They believe is the narrative.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah.

[Guillermo Rai]

And I keep it. Yeah.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Thomas.

[Thomas Hill]

It has. I mean, it has happened before. I was just looking, looking today. You know, I think 14 times a team in the Champions League or European cup has. Yeah. Brought back a three goal deficit. Madrid, the last time they did it was in 1975 against Derby. So, you know, that tells you everything about how long ago that is. But you wouldn't bet against Madrid. I think as. As Guillermo was writing in his. In his piece today, the feeling around the team is different this time. There is a bit of a feeling that it is too unbalanced almost. And I think I can definitely see Arsenal setting up for, you know, to basically not concede against Madrid. Madrid throwing everything at them and maybe Arteta's plan working out. But you'd say Madrid definitely score at the Benobel and then if the first goal comes in the first 10 minutes, for instance, can they then push on and, you know, totally lay siege to Arsenal's defence? Possibly. Yeah. Wouldn't count it out. And Ancelotti's been there before. These players have been there before. We know what to expect from them.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, it's definitely going to be a really exciting second leg. Guillermo, Thomas, thanks for your time and also James as well, who joined us earlier. We'll be back tomorrow.

[Athletic FC Podcast Host]

The Athletic FC podcast network.