Ayo Akimolere (4:51)

Yeah. Jack, I don't know if you've seen much of Ethan Wanieri this season or last season in fact, but you look at Roberto de zerbi, Marseille, currently third in Ligue 1. Could this be a player that works for a manager like that? If it does go over the line?

Jack Pitt-Brooke (5:06)

Yeah, yeah, I think so. I mean, De Zerbi plays such a distinctive brand of football and which I think has been really successful in so many places that he's worked so far. And I think that his Marseille team seemed to seem to embody that too. They've played some really exciting stuff over the course of the season. They've got some very talented players in the, in the group. And I think, you know, from a sort of development perspective, it could be maybe the best possible thing for him. Right, because he'd be playing the Champions League. He'd be playing in front of one of the best stadiums in Europe, one of the biggest and like noisiest fan bases in Europe. That's a brilliant way for any young player to learn and would be learning from, I think, one of the most interesting and distinctive attack minded coaches in Europe. So I think it could be the perfect move for him.

Ayo Akimolere (5:51)

Okay, well, let's talk about managers, David. I guess one of the big ones that circulates in the football ether right now is the future of Thomas Franca. Spurs will be playing Borussia Dortmund tonight in the Champions League, obviously after the defeat to West Ham at home. Again, what do we hear about the future of Thomas Franca right now?

David Ornstein (6:10)

Thomas Frank will take charge of tonight's game. He led the training session on Monday and the press conference preceding the visit of Dortmund. Let's be clear, there is huge goodwill for Thomas Frank inside Tottenham in the corridors of power, from the ownership down to the executive hierarchy. We don't know if that is unanimous. You would understand if there are some grumblings, whether it be exec, staff, players. We're definitely hearing that some players are dissatisfied, but those who call the shots. So we're talking this new executive leadership team. Vinay Venkateshem, Johan Lange, the sporting director and ultimately the Lewis family trust. They want him to succeed. That's why they bought him in. They claim it was an extremely thorough process and he's a likable guy. He's obviously a good coach and a bit more respect is needed than I think we see out there in the public domain. However, there's a realism to this as well. He is under intense pressure. His job is in the balance. You could say I would get the feeling, the way results have been going, common sense as to you, it's a matter of when, not if, he will go, but we don't know that for sure. He could beat Dortmund, win at Burnley and go on a dramatic upturn, however unlikely that feels. And Tottenham will be realistic. They will know that. Look, I don't think they will appreciate the term out of his depth because he's far more in his depth than many other coaches in world football. And he did a really good job at Brentford, Brndby, etc.

Ayo Akimolere (7:49)

But it has worked.

David Ornstein (7:50)

But there is an acceptance that this might not have been the right fit. And I think that's quite clear so far on many levels. There is also an acknowledgment that the problems run much deeper than Thomas Frank. And so he may end up paying the price, as Antepostecoglou did and many predecessors have as well. And it may continue into the future because Tottenham are trying to rebuild on and off the pitch to become a competitive force. This quote that the new ownership came out with, they want more wins. Like that night in Bilbao is. Is not looking so pretty right now. And I think when you look at culture, when you look at structure, when you look at leadership, when you look at medical, when you look at recruitment, when you look at salaries that are paid, Thomas Frank is one factor, but he's not the only one. And so, listen, the atmosphere has been bad. I'm fascinated to see what it will be like at the beginning of tonight. And also if it starts to go away from Thomas Frank, if it's a positive result, you can rest assured he'll stay in his job because they want him to do well. If it doesn't, then no doubt this noise is going to ratchet up again. And certainly it's precarious. He is in a critical situation right now.

Ayo Akimolere (9:07)

Yeah. Jack, we spoke about Thomas Frank, didn't we, with Danny Kelly on a previous podcast and Dortmund at home in the Champions League. Spurs are poised in a good position in the league phase anyway to potentially qualify for the next phase. If spurs win against Dortmund at home in Is that enough goodwill to carry Thomas Frank to potentially stay in this job a little longer?

Jack Pitt-Brooke (9:30)

Well, if they win, I think I'm sure he'll get the Burnley game on Saturday. I do think that his. His future will ultimately determine more by the Premier League than by the Champions League. I still think that the way the fans reacted to him on Saturday night makes his future as Tottenham manager maybe not fully untenable, but quite untenable. I don't think he can. You know, he survived it once. I don't think he can survive that happening again. So clearly he's under huge amounts of pressure. My sen is that it will ultimately be his unpopularity with the fan base that will probably force him out of the job. I think at some point, just because it's not, it's just not sustainable for a manager to be that unpopular. He is more unpopular. I have never, I do not remember a Tottenham manager being as unpopular with the fans as he is right now. Not even Nuno or Jose Mourinho or Antonio Conte or AVB were as unpopular nearly as Thomas Rank is at the moment. And I imagine that eventually, not this week, but eventually that will be the end of him.

Ayo Akimolere (10:27)

Yeah, but what David says is also really interesting is that leadership as well, ownership, all that kind of conversation. People keep saying Thomas Frank, Thomas Frank, Thomas Frank. But surely some of those problems stem much deeper.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (10:38)

Oh, yeah. There's more than enough blame to go around. There's, you know, there's a long list of people that you could blame for, for the situation that Tottenham are in at the moment. And Thomas Frank is by no means the only one. You know, you could easily, I mean, you could look at the hierarchy of the club. You could look at the, all the changes they've had behind the scenes. You could look at underinvest in the squad in the last, you know, five years, in the last 10 years. You could, I mean, you could look, you could blame Daniel Levy for appointing him in the first place. Like, I don't think he was. I don't think it was a good appointment. I don't think it was an appointment that fitted the expectations or the, or the demands of Tottenham and the fan base. So there's, yeah, there are an awful lot of people to, to look at. And I also think that Thomas Frank is trying to operate with a squad that isn't very good. You know, his best three attacking players or the Tottenham's best three attacking players from last season, Solanke, Madison and Kulasevsky. Not one of them has started a game yet for Thomas Frank, so. And the attacking players that he is putting out, I really don't think are top level players. So I don't think it's just about him. But I also think he's not a good fit and there's a lot of. An awful lot has to change for Tottenham to be good again.

David Ornstein (11:42)

Jack, would he have gone by now if Levy was still in charge? Because there are a lot of people saying that whatever you might claim on Daniel Levy, he was decisive and they're accusing this regime of not being as decisive with such an important decision. What's your view on that?

Jack Pitt-Brooke (12:00)

Is a hypothetical, but I think the answer is yes. I think Daniel Levy would have made the change. I think Daniel Levy was. Daniel Levy was pretty ruthless when he knew the mood had turned. He was also capable of moving quite quickly and decisively when he had to, because everybody knew that ultimately he was in charge. And I don't think there is to say, you know, Tottenham have got a different structure now. There's not. There is not as much power concentrated in any one individual. Now maybe that's a good thing. You know, that's something that the hierarchy wanted. They wanted a less personalized, less centralized way of doing things. But it does mean there's no, you know, there's no one person who can pull the trigger, so to speak. You know, we all remember four years ago, Nuno Espirito Santo going nowhere as Tottenham manager got massively booed off at the end of a game against Manchester United in the Premier League in October 2021. Daniel Levy that night decided to sack him, brought in Antonio Conte. It was all wrapped up incredibly quickly and ruthlessly. I'm not sure that Tottenham have the capacity to act as quickly and as ruthlessly and as decisively now as they did back then.

Ayo Akimolere (13:04)

Okay, right, let's move on. As we're talking about managers under pressure, let's hear a snippet of a frustrated Oliver Glassner. The interview with Sky Sport after the Palace's 21 defeat to Sunderland on Saturday.

Oliver Glasner (13:16)

We feel that we are being abandoned completely and selling our captain one day before a game completely. No understanding for this. We're preparing. And Then yesterday at 10:30 I got told that our captain will be sold. So why not next week that we can play at least this game next week another other players are coming back and that makes me really upset today.

Ayo Akimolere (13:40)

Well, David, I mean, despite Glassner's comments, you've actually reported that it's looking like palace will stick with him till the end of the season.

David Ornstein (13:51)

That's their preference.

Ayo Akimolere (13:52)

Oh, okay. There's a nuance there.

David Ornstein (13:54)

We don't know how he will react after his comments of Friday and Saturday. And there are going to be many more news conferences and presumably points of tension as the season goes on. But palace never intended to part ways with him. They wanted to renew his contract. It was he who decided he'll be leaving at the end of the season. So in Palace's mind will run until the end of the season. He then comes out with these comments and people took that to mean his position may be untenable. But that wasn't palace speaking, so of course they would have been angry. I'm sure at what he had to say. But they let the dust settle. There were three scheduled days off. That wasn't a knee jerk reaction. They don't play until they face Chelsea on Sunday. And by I think Sunday they, the sporting director, Matt Hobbs, not Steve Parish at that point the chairman were having positive conversations with him. I don't know if there were apologies because that would be quite unusual for these managers and head coaches, but we're led to believe there was some contrition or remorse of sorts. There was emotion, no doubt. And for the time being, on they go. They are active in the transfer market. That's an immediate priority to try and strengthen the squad for the second half of the season. They've got European football and a trophy to vie for. And Oliver Glasner said in that news conference after Sunderland and all of the interviews that he's not walking away. And I don't know if palace wanting to sack him, that would come at a cost unless he's breached his contract, which is quite possible given the nature of his comments. And so I think they will try and move forward together and reunite. What's clear here is that palace have to contingency plan for when he is going and therefore is it going to come about sooner? Do they start to look at their next head coach more intensively? They will have already been doing that. And do the fractures either reopen or widen in the next weeks or months? Does the European campaign not go so well? And so they bring forward whatever plans get him out the building, either get an interim in and the new person, but for the time being it's kind of business as usual. And as awkward as that is, it's not long to go. He's involved in conversations about recruitment. I'm aware of that. And sometimes these things happen and are not the big drama that the outside world suggests. They can move forward together. And don't forget this has happened at his previous clubs, I think at Eintracht, Frankfurt and Wolfsburg. And it ended interestingly around almost the identical number of games. Well, what it is now at Palace.

Ayo Akimolere (16:41)

So he gets jittery at a particular point.

David Ornstein (16:42)

It would suggest there's a shelf life. It would suggest there is a flare up always brewing around recruitment or whatever other issues. This was Mark Gahey off the back of Eze and not supposedly being backed in the market. Palace dispute a lot of what he said and I can understand their perspective because they stood by him in September by pulling the plug on the Mark Gehe deal when he was going to be leaving at the End of the season, Oliver Glassner and potentially Mark Gehee, the Eze deal, anyone would have taken that at that price for what? A 26 year old who had a clause previously in his contract and was probably not going to get a move of that magnitude again to his boyhood club. They've backed him in the market with a lot of signings. We can argue about how good they are, how late they were made, but they have invested heavily. They just broke their transfer record at the start of the January window. So that was early for Brennan Johnson, a player that Oliver Glasner pushed for despite the fact that he's leaving at the end of the season now it came back round with Gay again. I don't think they were going to back him to keep Gay at the expense of losing him for nothing when they could take some money now. And there's only four months of the season to go. £20 million and salary saving too. And Glasner, to my knowledge, was kept abreast of the likelihood of Gehe leaving. It was that morning that it became clear where the deal was up to, but it was always a possibility and I don't think Gahey was up for playing by the sounds of it. When the match was 24 hours later he was going to go for a City medical. We saw what happened with Liverpool last time around, so there's a lot more to this story than meets the eye. But on they go.

Ayo Akimolere (18:25)

Okay, Jack, very quickly on Glassner. We've just mentioned that there are the particular moments in his tenure where he seems to flare up and have a very similar conversation with the board about players and things like that. Can that be quite off putting for a potential club to bring him in? Perhaps, you know, he's clearly ambitious.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (18:42)

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. I mean he's gone full Conte. I didn't think he would go full Conte, but he.

David Ornstein (18:48)

Maresca Amarim and I think from a.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (18:52)

Like, if you're a club who's thinking of appointing a new manager or head coach, you don't really want to bring in a guy who is likely to air your dirty laundry in public like this. You know, of course clubs want all this stuff kept in house. They don't want. They don't want managers to go public with any whatever issues they might have about buying and selling and budgets and so on. Of course, of course they don't. And so I wonder whether, you know, I suspect that context, I suspect this has harmed Conte's career. You know, he's never got. He's never got a Manchester United job, for example. He's never got a Real Madrid job. He's never got that level, you know, that absolute top level I think of. Of club which, you know, he might otherwise have got because he's won so many trophies. Won basically with the exception of Tottenham.

Ayo Akimolere (19:37)

Chelsea fans might dispute everywhere.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (19:39)

Yeah, yeah, no, but I mean, but even Chelsea would never. I mean even Chelsea are not Manchester United or Liverpool. Right. And so Conte's never got that absolute top level of job. And I just wonder whether, I mean like Glasner is obviously an amazing coach, you know, won the Europa League at Frankfurt, won the FA cup of Crystal palace plays, you know, really dynamic football. But I just wonder whether the sort of things that he said in the last few weeks, I just wonder whether that might give clubs a little bit of a moment for pause if they're, you know, next time they're in a recruitment process.

Ayo Akimolere (20:11)

Okay, quick one on Jean Philippe Mateta, David Gay. He's obviously a Manchester City player now. I've seen all the social media posts. Looks very happy and content there. Mateta. If they lose Mateta and we're talking about Glassner staying on. Another star player and a player that shone under Glassner.

David Ornstein (20:27)

Yeah, but I think Crystal palace would have been receptive to a sale if the right price had come in. Maybe it still will. 28 years old contract 2027. And they want around 40 million euros for him. Juventus heavily linked with him, but they don't want to go to 40 million euros. And I don't think after the shenanigans of recent days, the blows that Crystal palace have suffered, Macclesfield, Gehe Glasner, Sunderland that they're going to compromise on what they want for such an important player and therefore Juventus have moved away from it for the time being, as far as I'm aware. And they're refocusing on someone like and Nassiri from Fenerbahce. They're looking at the likes of Siddiqui Sheriff at Angers in France, but that's a young option, 19 years old. We've got a bit of a dilemma here at Palace. If the club sign players for the future, is Oliver Glasner going to play them in this final four months given he was quite dismissive, to put it politely, of the bench at Sunderland despite it, including the likes of Camvo, Riyadh, Uche and so on.

Ayo Akimolere (21:36)

Uche hasn't hit the ground running at all, has he?

David Ornstein (21:38)

No, but they are more capable than he perhaps suggested at the stadium of light. So if he's not going to play players that the club bring in, are those players going to be willing to come if they're not going to play football? Or do they back Glasner in the market, given that he's going in the summer? Maybe you might see some loans that suit all parties because they all just focus on the next four months. But it's a complicated situation.

Ayo Akimolere (22:03)

Okay, quick question here from Kelvin, one of our YouTube subscribers who asks that would Manchester United not go on the market for another coach in case Carrick has a good run? I mean, we've been here with Ole Gunnar Solskjaer.

David Ornstein (22:17)

Of course they've got to go on the market and look at options and do their due diligence. I presume the process has begun already about a permanent manager head coach, and they will be analyzing, running the data, speaking to candidates. Don't forget they did a lot of work in the year 2024 when Erik Ten Hag's contract was coming to an end. They bought De Zerbi and Thomas Tuchel to the front of the stage and then gave Ten Hag a new contract. They would have considered all of that again when Ten Hag was leaving, even though they went for Amarin straight away. And so Michael Carrick may come into that. Of course, he may play his way into contention if he has a really good run to the end of the season. But that's a hypothetical that Manchester United can deal with at the time. It doesn't mean you shouldn't run your process. I expect them to. It should be thorough and diligent. And then come the summer with contracts expiring. We've spoken about this on the pod previously with different contractual situations with the World cup and maybe also the likes of Carrick and you make a decision there, but not now.

Ayo Akimolere (23:24)

Okay, Jack, if Carrick has a good run, does he have a good case to say, I want to be Manchester.

David Ornstein (23:31)

United's head coach or Tottenham's or Tottenham?

Jack Pitt-Brooke (23:37)

The funny thing about that is that up until. Up until he got the Man United job, I actually think he would have been the best out of work interim option for Tottenham. You know, there's not a lot of managers on the market, but he was on the market up until a few weeks ago and yeah, I think he should. I think if he continue, like the fact is, against Manchester City the other day, that was the best United played in years. I mean, I know still one game still. I know it is one game, but it was, it was one very, very good game and I just wonder if they can, if they can continue to play like that over the, the back end of this season. Well, why not? You know, they've just, they've tried almost literally everything else. You know, their last two permanent managers have been guys who have had very good records in their own and won their own domestic leagues. Obviously 10 HAG with Ajax, Reuben Amarim with Sporting and you know, neither of them have really managed to make much of an impression at Manchester United if we're honest. Obviously 10 Hag won the FA cup, but the neither of them got United to where they need to be. So they have, they have tried that option. You know, they've tried the kind of the, the youngish foreign manager who's won his domestic league, they've tried the very experienced big name manager and that hasn't quite worked either. So I just wonder if, I mean if Carrick does really well and if he of develops a bit of momentum then. Well, why not?

Podcast Producer/Host (24:55)

This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akimolere.

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Ayo Akimolere (25:50)

Okay, I have to tell you, I.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (25:51)

Was just looking on ebay where I.

David Ornstein (25:53)

Go for all kinds of things I love. And there it was, that hologram trading card. One of the rarest.

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David Ornstein (26:00)

Shiny like the designer handbag of my dreams. One of a kind.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (26:04)

Ebay had it.

David Ornstein (26:05)

And now everyone's asking, ooh, where'd you.

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Ayo Akimolere (26:09)

Ebay has all the parts that fit my car. No more annoying, just beautiful. Millions of fines, each with a story. EBay, things people love. Right, let's move on, David, because there's a question here from a YouTube subscriber. And I mean, look, you're on your phone now, so it's very apt to ask you this question. What's Your daily screen time on your phone.

David Ornstein (26:36)

Oh, good question. I should probably look it up now. They're got a caveat with the fact it's probably not as high in the January window as it is during the summer when there is so much more going on. This has been pretty frenzied because of the managerial changes as much as the. The player changes.

Ayo Akimolere (26:55)

What you got?

David Ornstein (26:57)

It's actually down 34 from last week. So it's. This week has started quite slowly.

Ayo Akimolere (27:04)

This is a guy that keeps an eye on his screen time. He knows, he knows he has to be in check.

David Ornstein (27:08)

It's not too bad. It's around 50% of the day.

Ayo Akimolere (27:11)

Okay, just give me the number.

David Ornstein (27:12)

Well, it's sort of around 10 hours this week so far.

Ayo Akimolere (27:16)

What are you doing?

David Ornstein (27:17)

But that's down. So we're only on Tuesday, down 34%. So yeah, we're looking at the height because at the end of last week was I, Mark Gay here, Oliver Glasner off the back of Amarim and previously Mareska. I mean, it would have been double that at that point. I think during the summer we, we, we push up towards the 20 hour mark. It's incredibly unhealthy.

Ayo Akimolere (27:42)

It's incredibly unhealthy.

David Ornstein (27:43)

Still get time to fit in a bit of paddle, Jim?

Ayo Akimolere (27:45)

Of course he does. Of course you do. Networking all in one. This guy just never stops as a machine. All right, let's carry on, on to the deal sheet because you mentioned it at the top, Oscar Bob is attracting a fair bit of interest at the moment.

David Ornstein (27:58)

Oscar Bob is expected to be sold by Manchester City before the window shuts. So that will have a number of clubs on high alert. We're hearing from Premier League, Bundesliga, Portugal as well. I think we mentioned in the deal sheet. Obviously there's more competition now with the arrival of Semeno. Bob needs to go and play football regularly. He's had his injury problems too, of course. I'm hearing it will take around £30 million, give or take, for a permanent transfer and we could see developments on that front this week as the market draws towards a close, but nothing done just yet. So it's one that is going to evolve and it could be a great deal for somebody. Clearly, Manchester City are receptive if their conditions are met, and they've got a pretty good record in recent times of selling players for profit. And he could be the latest.

Ayo Akimolere (28:52)

Well, Jack, look, in just over a year, City have spent around 480 million pounds on players. Mark Gahey, the newest addition to that team. Now they've drawn three and lost once in the last four games. This team has gone through a huge rebuild. Do these results compound the fact that it's still a team in transition?

Jack Pitt-Brooke (29:11)

Yeah, absolutely. They've done so much business in the last 12 to 18 months, haven't they? I think they probably had to because it felt like they didn't really do that much business when they were winning the league every year. You know, like during the. When they won the four in a row and they won the champions league in 2023. They had incredible stability in the playing style for such a long time. And they had like. It was really the team that was with a few additions. It was the team that Guardiola built in in his second season, really in 2017, which lasted for so long, you know, Walker Stones, Edison, Bernardo, Silva, Mahrez and so on, like those guys. And because they had so much stability and they didn't really make that many changes beyond adding, you know, an Akanji here, a Grealish there, a Rodri there, I think that meant that really caught up with them, which is why I think they started the last season so badly. And because they started last season so badly, they had to kind of squeeze almost years of rebuilding into a very narrow time span. And that is why they've done so much work in the last 18 months, I think, to try and make up for lost time.

Ayo Akimolere (30:16)

Okay, Mark Gahey, obviously going to City, David, a player actually many thought might be going to Liverpool originally. How has that now affected their transfer dealings in the summer, perhaps even in January?

David Ornstein (30:29)

Well, Liverpool were not intending to do business in this market and as far as I know, that remains the case unless something extraordinary changes, an unforeseen opportunity that may alter that stance. But as far as I know, the plan is to keep their powder dry for the summer and at that point they will clearly focus on the central defensive area. With Ibrahima Konate due to expire, his contract's coming to an end and there's been no breakthrough on talks over a new deal. Virgil Van Dijk and Joe Gomez will be entering their final 12 months. Obviously they were rocked by that cruel injury to Leonel. And then they'll presumably be a bit of a focus on what happens when Mohamed Salah is reintegrated. Does it go well? And if so, maybe he continues towards the end of his deal, which is 2027, if it doesn't go so well and he wants to leave, or Liverpool are open to a transfer, or both parties are in favor of going their separate ways then of course they will need to fill that wide attacking position. They obviously had an affection for Semenya to a degree and he went to Manchester City. So who would come in in that role is is very interesting in terms of marque. We know what happened in the summer and Liverpool would have been there again next summer but they don't appear to have been there this time round and a lot of fans are asking why. The word from Liverpool is that the finances didn't make sense to them. 20 million pounds plus salary and agents commissions and whatever the total package would be for just four months of football. That's their version of events. Others will say that after what happened in the summer he didn't want to go there and his focus was on Manchester City where he's ended up and says that it was always City to quote him. Others would have been there in the summer too possibly Arsenal, Bayern Munich were pushing hard. Barcelona were in the mix. I think he was due to go and visit maybe Bayern Munich and Barcelona robbers hearing which he's entitled to do as a free agent. You can sign a pre contract agreement legally with a foreign club. I think a lot has gone on in that Marc Gaye situation. We don't know the exact ins and outs of it yet. However, Manchester City put their best foot forward. They've come up trumps, they've won the race and it's an exceptional signing.

Ayo Akimolere (32:52)

Okay, Jack, Speaking of teams that have spent almost half a billion pounds recently. I mean it's a staggering, staggering amount of money. We have to talk about Liverpool. 449 million pounds spent in the summer. Obviously in came players like Isak Wirt, Ekatike Frimpong and obviously Kirkes. Have you now with a bit more of a time to look at this, assessed their summer signings so far?

Jack Pitt-Brooke (33:17)

Some, yeah, I mean like some but not all I think have really shown so clearly. Wirtz is a fantastic player and I think we've seen more and more and more from, from him recently. Ekatike has I think done really well this season and looks like a natural. He just like he looks like a natural fit. I still have, I think I still have some questions about whether or not it made sense to go for Ekatika and Isak in the same, in the same position in the same summer. Right. I think I often wonder if it should have been one and then if they should have got one of them and then maybe a different, slightly different profile of player. And we still haven't, you know, we're still waiting to really see anything approaching the Isaac who was so good at Newcastle United. So, so, so yeah, I mean, I think on an individual level some of the signings have been good, but like as a collective, I think a lot. You know, the jury is still very much out.

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Podcast Producer/Host (36:05)

You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimolere.

Ayo Akimolere (36:09)

Well, another question from YouTube, and this one's from Josh M. Says with so many managers out of contract in the summer or in insecure positions, how much of an effect will this have on the transfer window? Do clubs sign players independent of who the manager is. David.

David Ornstein (36:26)

Oh, what a great question. A club that is really well structured from the ownership through the executive and the sporting hierarchy in this modern, more continental model with a sporting director in place, will often be working on recruitment targets irrespective of the head coach, especially if they're going through a change of head coach. And they will have the courage of their convictions to know what players they want to bring in for their playing style, engage in negotiations and get deals done, always to my knowledge, with input from the coach, but not necessarily a casting vote. And that's the sort of ideal practice in a continental model that involves the coach focusing on coaching. However, it's easier said than done. You've got examples of coaches, managers being in position before the sporting director. So Eddie Howe, before Dan Ashworth came into Newcastle and then they had Paul Mitchell and Ross Wilson. You have a hybrid at Arsenal where Edu was there and helped appoint Mikel Arteta. But then Mikel Arteta outlasted Edu and was part of the group that I presume decided that Andrea Berta would be the successor to Edu. And different managers gained different amounts of control and power. So at Manchester City, Arsenal, Newcastle, Aston Villa, I think the coach manager is incredibly powerful at the moment. I'm not saying that the sporting directors in the hierarchy are not, but they are more powerful than say the coach at Chelsea or the way Manchester United appear to be going. And some other examples, even good case studies like say a Brighton, it doesn't always gel. When Roberto de Zerbi was targeting, I think Matt Vienko from Shakhtar Donetsk, he didn't rate highly on Brighton's data. That guides Tony Bloom and Paul Barber, the hierarchy in the decisions that they make. And so there was a bit of a disagreement and often you can work those through, often it causes tension. So in response to the question, it's not a fine science. There's no clear way it's done. I think we are moving more towards a hierarchy led decision with coaching input. But there is still a bit of antagonism around it all because you're seeing how when we're reporting on Crystal palace and Chelsea and Manchester United recruitment and who's making decisions and whose voice carries greatest weight is at the heart of what we're talking about. And so I think it will continue to be a sort of careful balancing act. And even where it's done well, there may be more difficult moments depending on the person in the dugout. The absolute key factor is to just get your story straight. From the beginning, when you're going through the interview process later. Yeah. The guidelines, the rules of engagement, the markers, the goalposts as to how it's going to be done at this club. And if the coach manager signs up for that, at that point, great. If they have reservations, let them be aired then, not further down the line. And I accept that's quite a halcyon vision, because as we meander through these journeys, there's success, there's failure.

Ayo Akimolere (39:50)

In particular, first time how, in how long palace have won a trophy. Surely he's got some sort of clout to say, this is how I want.

David Ornstein (39:56)

To run this, this team, first ever major trophy. And suddenly you gain credibility to a greater extent to what you already had. Maresca lifting Chelsea's Club World Cup, Club World cup, their Europa Conference League, putting them in the top four. A lot of people say to me that sort of success emboldens these coaches to try and tip the balance in their favor. Maybe they're more experienced than their superiors, maybe they've got greater football expertise. They probably have. And so it's a constant. You know what it's like a relationship.

Ayo Akimolere (40:28)

Yeah, yeah. Do you know what, Jack? David makes a really interesting point, and I feel that's what we saw towards the end of Amaram's tenure was this kind of in the interview process, just let me know what you want from me and maybe we can deliver that. Or at least we're in agreement as to what this job is. Do we often see this kind of need for more power? Especially when a coach, perhaps Amarim is not the best example here, wants more. Hold on, how to shape the squad, considering perhaps they've won a trophy here and there and they can finally say, look, listen to me, this is my job, I think I know what I'm doing.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (41:04)

Yeah. I mean, to me, that was probably the interesting thing about the sackings of both Amarim and Maresca a few weeks ago is that I don't. It didn't really feel from the outside, to me at least, that either of them were really sacked for results. It felt like they were more sacked for political reasons or because of the breakdown of relationships, for the things they said in public, the things they said in private. And the weird thing about that was, obviously when, you know, when Maresca got the Chelsea job in the first place, I think the assumption was that he wasn't going to be an especially powerful manager. Right. And so when he started pushing on that, then it was only going to end one way. But I always remember thinking that when Amarim got the Man United job, the expectation was he was going to be a really powerful manager. And yet it seemed like, I mean, it seems to me like, you know, the Manchester United hierarchy actually decided that they would start pushing him on things like the formation, for example. And it just goes to show that ultimately any manager or head coach nowadays is going to be under, you know, the kind of boundaries of their political power and how much, how much control do they have versus the, you know, the other suits at the club that is just such an important factor in the success or failure any of them.

Ayo Akimolere (42:11)

Okay, I want to talk about something very quickly, David, and please jump in, Jack, if you've got any opinions on this. And it's something that's been doing the rounds on social media actually is Brentford and how Brentford have been really good at recruiting forward players in a time where we're looking at players like Jochares Sesco, who are still struggling to bed in, who have gone in for much higher fees. But Brentford, Balin Brumo cost 5.8 million, shifted him for 65 million to Manchester United. Yonovisa 8.5 million, shifted him for 55 million to Newcastle. We look at Ivan Toney, obviously, 5 million brought in off to Saudi for 34 million pounds. Ollie Watkins, Maupe, the list goes on. I mean, they've been really good at that, haven't they? And we obviously talk about Thiago, of course, another one that seems to be shining. How have they managed to do that? Especially when other teams are really struggling to find that center forward position or a striking position.

David Ornstein (43:06)

Hats off to Brentford. They're an amazing, remarkable story that can set an example to many throughout the Premier League, English football, European football and the world game. It's why they're gaining investors who are coming and taking portions out the club. They want to be a part of it. They're gaining admirers, plaudits, rightly so. You didn't mention Kevin Schada who could go for a profit. You took Igor off the tip of my tongue. And there will be others too, if you. Even the clever investments like a Jordan Henderson who did they pick up for free or near to that. And he's driving their midfield this season. It hasn't all been perfect, but they've maintained their Premier League status since arriving and they appear to be flourishing. You've got to apportion credit to the ownership which has been led by Matthew Benham. Bought them up from the Doldrums around the time where they were collecting coins in Buckets at the previous stadium. It's an absolutely jaw dropping story what Brentford have done. It's movie stuff. A bus stop in Hounslow and then it goes down to the people he has empowered. So you've got Phil Giles there, you've got Lee Dykes, you had Rasmus Ankerson previously, you have got Cliff Crown the chairman, you've got John Varney the chief executive. These guys are working in unison. They have been for a long time. Even if there's a departure, they've gone from strength to strength. There's a lot of trust, there's a lot of intelligence. Matthew Benham working on his betting data algorithms in a not too dissimilar way to his former friend now foe Tony Bloom at Brighton. And we've written and reported all about that relationship. On the Athletic, they're clearly ahead of the game in what they're doing. They're clearly becoming a destination club for a certain type of player. They reached a bit of a pinch point in the summer, just gone because they were standing so firm on a Brian and Buemo on a Johan Whisser to the point that I was wondering what message that would send to the market where players think they can come to Brentford, do okay and leave, but now suddenly there's some resistance there. Is that going to kill their usp? But I don't think so. Both players made their moves and Burmo doing really well. Whissel was struck by injury but he's starting to pick up now at Newcastle. There are success stories wherever you look across the game and they just seem to be maximizing the marginal gains, their recruitment, their scouting, their negotiations, their ability to identify coaches as well in Thomas Frank coming through the system now, Keith Andrews, who I want to credit massively for the impact he's made so far. And from what I know he's a brilliant guy too and is catching the eye of many around the game. Held in very high regard and they're producing an army of set piece coaches throughout football who are going off to the Manchester City's and Arsenals and Tottenhams and so on. It's a brilliant case study and unless you're an enemy of Brentford, you can't help but say chapeau.

Ayo Akimolere (46:17)

Yes, chapeau, Ajax chapeau. I mean, should we give them their flowers? We don't often do it on this podcast I think we have in terms of certain results and Thomas Frank in particular. But you know, I've just listed that name of attacking prowess that have gone through the Brentford Books. I mean, that's incredible recruitment.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (46:33)

It's amazing recruitment. It's so good. Like the. There are so many, like so many Premier League clubs will be so jealous of their ability to identify the best young players. You know, like a lot of those, A lot of those players who Brentford have brought in for very small fees and then built up and then sold for big fees. A lot of them would have come from mid table French teams or league dir teams or they were not. These were not kind of superstar kids at all. But Brentford's ability to identify which players will be able to make a big impact in the Premier League and which will be able to grow and develop and then be sold at a profit, that is just magic. That is such an important skill in modern football. And there are so many clubs who try really, really hard to do this. There's so many clubs who would want to be able to do this and they can't do it like bread. I mean, the only other one, as David mentioned, is Brighton, really, who are able to recruit that cleverly and be able to be able to identify talent and get it into the building. It's such a hard skill and they are, you know, they, they deserve an awful lot of credit and respect for their ability to keep doing that.

Ayo Akimolere (47:41)

Okay, fantastic. I think it's a lovely time to end it there. In the words of David and Carl Anka, actually, shop off, Jack. David, appreciate your time and also thank you guys for joining us as well. We'll be back soon.

Podcast Producer/Host (47:56)

You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabre and Jay Beal. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and Avi Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.

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David Ornstein (50:01)

Par le tu francais hablas espanol? Parle italiano?

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