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- [00:02]
A
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What if you laughed all through your commute? Or if you heard the funniest story while at the gym? Well, now you can. I'm Jameela Jamil and guests on my new podcast Wrong Turns share their most mortifying and hilarious disaster stories. I'm talking people like Mae Martin, Bob the Drag Queen, Katherine Ryan, Jake Johnson, Margaret Cho, Simon Pegg Penn Bad and so many more. So listen wherever you get your podcast. Wrong Terms Where Dignity Goes to Die
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A
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B
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- [01:07]
C
This episode of the Athletic FC is sponsored by boss, businesswear provider for the US Men's National Soccer Team. Long before kick off, the performance has already begun for the players. The crest is not simply worn, it's earned. Boss understands what it takes to build something worthy of a crest. Constant refinement, precision in every stitch. And as the USMNT steps into the spotlight on home soil, BOSS is outfitting those who wear the badge, empowering them to step forward, forward with confidence, express their individuality and be their own Boss in relaxed, lightweight and breathable tailoring from Boss Performance and soccer fans. BOSS has you covered too. Whether you want to look and feel as sharp as your heroes in BOSS Performance or show your pride from the stands in jerseys, polos and jackets in national colors and badges. Own the moment with confidence. Discover the BOSS performance collection as worn by the US Men's National Soccer Team and the fan capsule of jerseys, polos and jackets in national colors. Wear your passion your way and be your own boss@boss.com or at your nearest boss store,
- [02:09]
A
the Athletic FC. Hello and welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me Ian Irving. So more Bellingham brilliance sends England into the semi finals with two against Norway, but is mentality enough to win the World Cup? Wow, what a sentence that was to kick us off the World cup for England. There's a few bleary eyes about, shall we say after that late night drama for England against Norway in the quarterfinals of the World Cup. But these two here, bright eyed bushy tailed Carl Anker and Leon Toomey waiting to speak to us. We're fresh gents. We up for this?
- [02:49]
D
Absolutely. Absolutely.
- [02:51]
E
I was struggling early on, but maybe you're going to be the one that saves me, Ian.
- [02:54]
A
Oh, I see what you did there. Very nice work. Let's get into it then. Let's go to Miami. Let's hear from the Athletics England correspondent, Jack Pitt Brook on that victory last night.
- [03:04]
F
It was a weird game. I thought it was probably the worst that England have played over the course of this tournament. I thought they were a mess from about 25 through to about 80 minutes. Thomas Tuchel's halftime substitutions didn't work. England really struggled without Declan Rice in the middle of the pitch. He really took on. Had to scramble to save it in the second half with various substitutions before England got their footing back in the game. But despite all of that, I thought it was an amazing effort from the IND from the England substitutes to get it over the line to seize back control of the game in extra time. And it's left me thinking, does it matter that England aren't playing that well? I mean, there's so many holes you could pick in the England performance. I mean, this was, I think, was probably worse than some of the England performances we've seen so far. But when you've got the mentality and the will to win, that they show, firstly in the Azteca and then again here. And when you've got individual players like Kane and Bellingham who can determine games in the way that they did, I don't know how much of that counts anymore. I don't think anybody will want to play England. I think they have a real togetherness which can count for a lot. And sure, they could easily get ripped apart by a good player. There's clearly gaps in that defense, although I did think they handled Harlem pretty well. But I do think that England have a lot of momentum. They're in a brilliant position. They're still in the tournament and they're playing the semi final in Atlanta on Wednesday.
- [04:23]
A
Yeah. Thank you, Jack. He didn't bring the mood down completely, Carl, by beginning to criticize the performance for England. It's a fair point and we'll talk about the substitutions a little bit later on as well. But I think the point that he made about just getting the job done, the resilience of this group, the spirit of this group, that is the main thing that stands out, isn't it?
- [04:40]
D
Absolutely. If you think about the performance, Azteca was just trench warfare, gutting it out in adverse situation and getting it done. And I'd say this performance was grinding things out, making Things attritional. I thought England played quite well until the first hydration break and then it. They just again seemed to lose their head, seems to lose shape. And yes, the headlines and the montages will most likely include a lot of Harry Kane and a lot of Jude Bellingham. But I think for anyone who's been watching these games, you've probably come away going, I'm so glad Dan Burn is here. Oh, you know what, that Jed Spence fella, he's pretty good, isn't he? It's been some really surprising subplots and I think a lot of it is down to these substitutions coming on and just heart, guts, spine, all on the field.
- [05:26]
A
Yeah. Liam, does it matter that they've not played at the best? I mean, Thomas Tuchel seems to say after every single game as well that they're. They're not playing as well as they can, but they're in the semi finals.
- [05:37]
E
Well, you can't win the World cup in the early rounds, but you can lose it. And England have not lost it. They are still there. And as long as you're still there, you have the possibility to click into a higher gear. Now, the thing that might worry you is that they've played maybe the two most gruelling games of the tournament back to back. Mexico at the altitude of the Azteca with no adaptation time and then 120 minutes in a Florida swamp against Norway, who thankfully were just as quite a
- [06:05]
A
way to describe Miami, by the way.
- [06:07]
E
I had a bad experience at the club World cup last summer, I'm not going to lie. Oh, fair enough.
- [06:11]
A
Trauma.
- [06:12]
E
Thankfully it was. Norway were just as ill adapted to those conditions as England were, which made it a really tough game for both of them. And the other thing that might concern you is that England are slightly walking wounded at this point. And one thing I agree with with with Jack is every time Declan Rice isn't on the pitch, you really feel it. As good as Elliot Anderson has been, and I thought he was excellent in the game, maybe his best performance of the tournament so far. Just not having the security of Rice's presence in that area of the pitch, the ground that he's able to cover, to be that kind of roaming destroyer and ball carrier, it's a big problem. England don't have another player to bring on who does the same things as him. I think his withdrawal, yeah, we'll talk about the subs, but coincided with Norway's best stretch of the game.
- [07:00]
A
Does it worry you, Liam, that they've had to come from behind now, for the second time in three knockout games to get the job done, it suggests
- [07:07]
E
that plan A isn't going swimmingly. But you know what? Honestly, part of what makes me so intrigued about an England Argentina semi final is how similar they've been as teams, how mortal they've looked at virtually every stage.
- [07:22]
A
They.
- [07:22]
E
Neither of them are particularly good defensively.
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D
They.
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E
They will lose the thread of their performance at some point in 90 minutes and give you a chance to score. They usually concede. And. And they depend on exceptional individuals in the final third, of course, Argentina, namely one, although you know, Julian Alvarez will talk, stepped up last night, but it's been. It's been Lionel Messi, mostly England. Tuchel readily admits, we have a system and then we have Kane and Bellingham and we just let them get on with it in the final third because they're top players. And it's worked spectacular. That part of it has worked spectacularly well for England in this tournament. Both those guys have turned up in a big, big way and delivered when the teams needed the most. So it is concerning, but it would be more concerning if they weren't getting the kind of performances they're getting from their two top guys.
- [08:12]
A
Yeah, let's talk about those top guys, Karl, because Harry Kane obviously came up trumps against Dr. Congo last night. It was Jude Bellingham's turn, picking up where he left off in the Azteca. Absolutely incredible the way that he seems to respond when his country needs him. The bigger the stage, the bigger he seems to grow as well. Jude Bellingham, I mean, remarkable last night again for England.
- [08:36]
D
He's phenomenal. I don't think we've seen a midfielder with this sort of big game now. Six goals at this tournament. If you think about the classic English midfielder, you know, you close your eyes and you're supposed to explain what they're good at. You eventually describe Jude Bellingham, that ability to grab a game by the scruff of the neck and go, we're not losing today and we're going to go forward. It needs to be done this way. And Bellingham has done this time and time again. The first goal is just great technique. Crashing the box in the way he does, the way he's able to. His playing relationship with Harry Kane has improved, I'd say, since Euro 2024 and indeed the last World cup in Qatar. There are fewer times where Belling was going off the ball when Kane can't quite get there and the shape is voided and they just trust each other innately. Now there's a moment towards the end of that game when Belling's run over to Jed Spence, sort of shakes him going, my God, there's the brotherhood that. That might get you a World Cup.
- [09:32]
A
Yeah, again, that's. That's part of that resilience and spirit that we talked about before. The togetherness of this group, too. I mean, Liam, I wouldn't like to be someone who has to rank all the players at this World cup and update it for the moment. No, I can imagine. Is Jude Bellingham going to move up the list then?
- [09:49]
E
Yeah, I don't. I don't see how he. How he can't really. Erling Haaland was one of the players above him heading into this round, and I think he'll be moving above Haaland after that game. The question is more whether he will be moving above Kane, because it is.
- [10:04]
A
That is an interesting shout.
- [10:06]
E
Well, it's now a live debate as to who England's best player is. And it's not a debate that I hope either of them particularly indulge personally, because, as Karl said, their chemistry is so good and England will need both of them if they have any chance to actually win this tournament. But Kane started off being the headliner and kind of delivering as that, peaking, I think, in the Congo game where he was just sensational. But Bellingham has stepped up in a massive way in the last two games. And ultimately it's an incredible benefit for Tuchel to have both of them to call upon. And the way that they work together is even more impressive, I think, than their individual brilliance. The goal that Kane had ruled out for a narrow offside was just a fantastic combination between the two of them, where he runs off Bellingham, Bellingham slips him in. Wonderful dinked finish. It's just a shame that it was a few inches the wrong side.
- [11:05]
A
Liam, you've done a fantastic job of talking around the topic there. Who is going to be ranked higher in your list? Because it has to be updated sometime soon, doesn't it? Will Bellingham be above Harry Kane? You're the one making the list, after all.
- [11:17]
E
Well, it's also informed by the Athletics player ratings model, as we always put in the disclaimer at the top. So don't just abuse me. Also abuse the robot if you can, but, you know, there's a strong chance that Bellingham will be above Kane, I think.
- [11:32]
A
A strong chance of. Yeah, okay, Karl, where would you put him?
- [11:38]
D
Yeah, I put Bellingham just ahead. Just ahead of this performance. I'm still. Well, his defensive contributions as well. This is not to say Harry Kane shies away from doing dirty work in his own penalty area, but sometimes we. I think we get too focused on the fact that Jude Bellam scores loads of goals and we forget that he's also phenomenal at all of the other midfield stuff. There's a reason why he wore 22 when he was at Birmingham in the whole conversation when he was in that academy was he wanted to be good at everything you want from a central midfielder and he is good at everything you want from a central midfielder. And he's also scoring goals like he's Alan Shearer.
- [12:11]
A
Somehow he does look like a striker, doesn't he, when he finishes.
- [12:15]
D
Liam Tham tweeted partway through the game about how one of the conversations often been, who's going to replace Harry Kane when Harry Kane is no longer the center forward. And Liam Farm made the point, you could do a lot worse than just move him. Jude Bellam up to the number nine. Carlo Ancelotti used them at the top of a 4 for 2 midfield diamond when they won the La Liga and Champions League and he just kept crashing the box and basically played as a nine. And there have been times where you're looking at me going, that is proper classic center forward play. So, yeah, go on then.
- [12:43]
A
Yeah, let's not worry about replacing Harry Kane just yet. We're all right for a few games, for the moment with him because they are doing an incredible job, the pair of them, six goals apiece. The thing about Bellingham as well, Liam, is just the fact that, like I mentioned before, nine of his 12 England goals have come in major tournaments. He just seems to be able to rise to the occasion. Whatever the level is, whatever the moment is, he seems to be able to meet it. And considering there was debate about him even being in the squad or the team coming into this tournament, it's unthinkable that he wouldn't be part of this group.
- [13:17]
E
Well, yeah, that that record might be impacted by the fact that there's like a psychodrama over his selection between tournaments.
- [13:24]
D
Yeah.
- [13:24]
E
And then he makes it onto the. Onto the plane and proves absolutely indispensable when. When the big games come up. Yeah.
- [13:31]
A
Tuchel done this on purpose because he didn't seem like he wanted to shut down the debate at any point. It always felt like he was quite pleased that there was some debate around not just Jude Bellingham, but it sort of felt like in particular, Jude Bellingham was such a talking point and there was no. At no point did he Complete, completely shut it down and guarantee him anything.
- [13:51]
E
Basically, I'm not completely inclined to give Tuchel the master plan credit for it because, you know, I think he is a good motivator. I also think he, and I've said this before in the pod, he's had trouble in the past maintaining relationships with certain players. And I think you, you got maybe a hint from Bellingham's post match interview that Tuchel might not be his favorite person. There was kind of a vibe of this guy in, in his, in his whatever, whatever. And you know, there may be some people in our industry that are inclined to make more of that than I am. I just think it's, you know, it can be positive tension. They don't have to love each other. If Tuchel is putting Bellingham in position to succeed when it matters most, if he's giving him the freedom in the final third to do what Bellingham does best and impact games, then, yeah, Bellingham doesn't have to love him. Tuchel doesn't have to find him the easiest player to deal with. If it works, it works. And if England come out of this with a first World cup since 1966, I don't think anyone's going to be dwelling on the nature of that relationship.
- [14:57]
A
No, absolutely not. One thing we need to mention before we move on Karl as well is the way that England stopped Erling Haaland last night. So just to spell this out, it's the first time he's played a competitive international and not scored since October 2024. He'd scored in 14 straight games for Norway. But not now.
- [15:16]
D
But not now. I think I might have to say thank you to Sauloff as well because he absolutely butchered that counterattack running, striding into the boxing, going, oh, God, this is it. He's going to make the. He's not made the pass. Oh, okay.
- [15:28]
E
I think, I think John Stones deserve credit there as well.
- [15:31]
D
Yes.
- [15:32]
E
Everyone in the universe knew that Sorloth wanted to pass to Erling Haaland, including John Stones, who positioned himself accordingly.
- [15:40]
D
The second half changes defensively eventually got going. I think Tuchel got the halftime subs wrong and just vacated midfield. And they put a lot of pressure on the defense so they were to step up big time. And yeah, Tuchel was asked, how'd you stop Erlen Haaland? I believe by Kelly Summers. And Tuchel's response was as a collective, that man runs and marauds all over the field in a way that you can very easily lose concentration. And then, then you're gone. So the fact that they divot out duties and they very much work really well to to stop the supply. Odegaard had very good game but those final through balls didn't quite reach Harland and I think that was yeah, very important. In the end I quite enjoyed Gary Nevilles oh noise when you realised Haaland been substituted because I think quite a few people around the country made a similar. You what?
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A
Yeah, it was odd. It was definitely odd. It was celebrated in the pub where I was sitting as well. There was quite a few chairs. I imagine a lot of Manchester City fans were jeering early in Haaland for the first time in their lives around where we were.
- [16:39]
C
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- [18:25]
A
Acast powers the world's best podcasts Here's a show that we recommend
- [18:33]
B
what if you laughed all through your commute? Or if you heard the funniest story while at the gym. Well, now you can. I'm Jameela Jamil and guests on my new podcast Wrong Turns share their most mortifying and hilarious disaster stories. I'm talking people like Mae Martin, Bob the Drag Queen, Katherine Ryan, Jake Johnson, Margaret Cho, Simon Pegg, Penn Badgley and so many more. So listen wherever you get your podcast. Wrong Terms where dignity goes to die.
- [19:04]
A
Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast do. Okay, let's, let's talk more then about the substitutions because it is a theme, I suppose it's become of this, this tournament for Thomas Tuchel in England, not least because of some of the players picking up the injuries and managing the problems as well. I mean Liam, you obviously covered him when he was at Chelsea. Thomas Tuchel, do you see similarities in the way that he's handling this group in this moment to the knockout success that he had at Stamford Bridge?
- [19:42]
E
Well, I think when he came into Chelsea, one of the first things he said was that we want to build a team no one wants to play against. And he also spoke about the importance of building a positive atmosphere within the group. And I think those things, that experience of coming in mid season to Chelsea and just having kind of like a four or five month intense run maybe was better preparation for this World cup than anything else he's done in his career. Because you know club management when you're strategizing over a whole season is a very different challenge. And tactically at least for the first 12 months he was at Chelsea he tended to get the starting plan right way more often than not. It was very rare to see him get something wrong. And I think he got it right from the start. Against Norway it was more individual errors and a freak worldy of a cross shot, whatever the hell you want to call it from Shelderup that put Norway ahead and then England regathered themselves. Well, I think they were the formation that they had, the alignment they had allowed them to get back into the game and maybe a helpful camera, camera cable, we may never know. But then the halftime subs, he got it badly wrong. Tuchel didn't. He made a lot of good points after the game about England not being good enough. He could maybe have done with acknowledging his role in that as well, I think, and saying that I made mistakes too because he clearly acknowledged it in game because it got to a stage where not only could they not get the ball back, but Norway had made their double winger swap, which style Solbacken likes to do and Antonio Noosa and Oscar Bobb were teeing off against favorable matchups on both wings. Noosa against the tired ESRI Konsa and Bob against his old man City Academy teammate Nico O'Reilly. And that was the only stretch of the game where I felt like a Norway goal was just a matter of time. And eventually they got themselves out of those matchups by putting Rhys James into midfield and then eventually to right back and bringing on Jed Spence, who did very well at left back and they managed to claw it back. But against a better team, if they make the kind of unforced errors they did in the first half and Tuchel makes the kind of tactical miscalculation he did at half time, I think they will get more harshly punished.
- [22:04]
A
Yeah, Kyle the midfield was like a carousel of changes really, wasn't it? Elliot Anderson sort of looked over his shoulder and it was a different player every five minutes. It felt like at one point that was playing alongside him in Declan Rice started the game there, Jude Bellingham dropped deeper. There was Azza there, there was Rhys James there, there was Morgan Rogers there as well, but no Kobbie Mainoo. Now obviously you and I do the Manchester United podcast talk the Devils for the Athletic, so it is a, a a talking point. We'll discuss on that, I'm sure. But it's an interesting note that Mania was one of the midfielders who was picked to come to this tournament, yet Thomas Tuchel, despite all those changes in midfield last night, didn't turn to him. And it feels like we're not actually going to see him play any minutes now at this tournament.
- [22:44]
D
Yes, unfortunately, if you're a Manchester United fan or not a United fan, you want to see more of the hype around Mainoo. It seems that Tuchel might have shared a similar sentiment to, let's say, Ruben Amren, who believed Main, whose lack of explosive pace and ability to cover ground at top speeds has now seen him fall behind certain midfielders. I quite enjoyed some of Anthony Barry's halftime team talks and how he's been explaining how so much of what you want to do is to get out of this middle 24 yards and to accelerate really, really quickly. And I think Mainoo's comparative lack of progressive passing over the longer distances. He doesn't really have the big long switch that Declan Rice has, that Elliot Anderson has perhaps might have played a factor. So Main is one of a handful of England players that haven't played any minutes along with James Trafford. Dean Anderson, I Don't think Ivan Toney's played a minute yet either. But you never know. You never know. The midfield changes did really confuse me. Obviously Tuchel knows Reece James very well and Rhys James has been playing in central midfield over other midfielders for Chelsea recently, not including Andre Santos, who's now just going to looking like he's going to be joining Mainoo at Manchester United as well. But for me, it was only when Rhys James went to right back that I felt calm. Okay, much better because he is truly one of the best right backs in the world and I think that time he was working on The Thomas Tuchel 2020, 2021 he was up there for one of the best right backs I'd seen in the 21st century. So his hamstrings may be screaming on for dear life, but if he can play more than 45 minutes against Argentina, I absolutely haven't though. Same thing with Saka. These are two players that are walking wounded, but their match reading intelligence and their efficiency in their actions still puts them on one leg above so many football players in the same position. It's remarkable.
- [24:37]
A
Yeah, Liam. It does also, I suppose, advertise on the flip side that the quality that's in this squad and the strength in depth in these different positions that Thomas Tuchel's got at his disposal. And when you look at the recent tournaments, it's. It's been growing for England, hasn't it? They've been on the precipice of. Of major success a few times. It's felt like since 2018 at the semi finals, Euro 2020, the final, obviously 24, the final as well. The last World cup, the quarter final defeats. France fell obviously early, but they were a very good French team that knocked England out. It does feel like it's growing. Do you think this group has got what it takes to be the one that gets this nation over the line again?
- [25:15]
E
They've got the talent to win any individual game from the start or off the bench. I think you saw in this game they didn't even have to dust off Marcus Rashford who has been impactful in this tournament at other stages. But Morgan Rodgers came on and it's his shot which sets up the winning goal. Bukayo Saka. I think everyone would much rather see him as a starter, but if he hasn't got quite enough juice for that, then he showed, I think, with one phenomenal bit of wing play in the second half where he beat two defenders on his own and took out the goalkeeper with a low cross. And it was just a last ditch clearance from two England players at the back post that he can still create chances better than just about anyone in that position. So they have strength and they have depth. I just worry that the other teams, particularly one team in the other half of the draw has more of both.
- [26:10]
A
Yeah, we'll talk about the teams in the other half of the draw towards the end of the podcast because I know exactly who you're referring to. But we do know now that England will be facing Argentina in the semi finals. They also needed extra time to get past Switzerland. And there in Kansas for the Athletic was Adam Crafton.
- [26:27]
G
Again, it was another long, long night for Argentina, winning 31 in the end, but it went all the way to extra time. It took an incredible goal, one that really took your breath away in the stadium from Julian Alvarez. The drama of the night came with the red card for Brielle Mbolo of Switzerland. This kind of new use really of VAR to overturn a yellow card that was given through a foul against him by Paredes. But then when it was reviewed, it actually looked like a dive. And because and Bolo had already been booked, it meant that he actually was sent off. But the cut and dry of it is England against Argentina in Atlanta. And I think England will have seen, you know, enough to give them quite a lot of encouragement for that game. And I know Argentina will probably have seen enough to give them some encouragement as well from England's performance earlier today. You know, you can get this Argentina team, but they're a very emotional team. They have kind of peaks and troughs within games. But when they're up, the way they channel this electricity that they have between themselves as players, this kind of band of brothers that have already won the World cup once, you know, Liverpool sometimes use that phrase, this means more. And you do get that sense with Argentina that this does just mean everything to the country. But war again, we have to look forward to in Atlanta on Wednesday.
- [27:58]
E
Wow.
- [28:00]
G
It feels like kind of the game of. The game of the century in many ways from an England point of view in a World Cup. So much history in that fixture. So exciting. The Argentines are excited for it too. Hold on tight.
- [28:13]
A
Wow. Thank you, Adam. The game of the century in the World cup for England. Carl, do you agree?
- [28:18]
D
Yeah, why not just to get to the World cup final, you've got to beat the reigning champions containing,
- [28:24]
E
I'm not
- [28:25]
D
going to say arguably the best player of all time in Lionel Messi, An Argentina squad that, yes, they have flaws, I think, because they want to get the most out of Messi. They play in quite a narrow way. That means if your wingers really want to get up for it, you can hurt them. But also you're watching this Argentina squad and they all are playing anywhere between 5 to 15% better because they're willing to die on the field to help Messi reach his goal. Liam's been watching Enzo Fernandez all last season and I'm sure he's looking at some of these Argentina games going, where was this? I'm looking at Alexis Mac Allister, who has not looked as good as he used to be, understandably because he's been having some hernia problems for Liverpool and yet he is moving across the field for Argentina as if he's like, I don't care. I've got these hernia problems. I'll just. I'll take the injury issues because I need to get the most out of Messi. In this limited time you have next to play with Messi. So you got that. You include all the other historical footballing reasons and all the historical geopolitical reasons between the two nations and yeah, it's going to be. I'm fascinated to see what sort of montages BBC give me before and after this game.
- [29:36]
A
Liam, we refer to the imperfections in both teams earlier on. And you also said about the drama that England have had to survive and what that might take out of the team. But if anyone survived drama in this World cup, it's Argentina, isn't it? I mean, the last three games they've had have not been straightforward at all, to say the least.
- [29:54]
E
No, I think they've been the most entertaining team at the last two World Cups because this is very much a continuation of what they were like in 2022 as well, where they. I mean, I think the difference is at the last World cup they controlled most of games and it was the spells in which they lost control, in which crazy things happened that they had to dig themselves out of. Whereas this time it's felt like they've had long stretches, not in control of games, and they've had to pull themselves back from the brink a lot. But they have this remarkable resilience. You know, don't talk to Thomas Tuchel about mentality with England. Gabriel Clark found that. But I think Argentina might be even mentally stronger given that they've already experienced what it takes to win this tournament once. I'm not sure they're quite good enough to do it again this time, but they're clearly good enough to go close and the thing that you would look at as maybe being slightly ominous is that it didn't have to be Messi against Switzerland for most of this tournament. It had to be Messi, if not him, then no one, because Julian Alvarez, until that shot against Switzerland, had done very little in this tournament and had not looked anywhere close to 100%. Lautaro Martinez has not been the same player for Argentina that he is for Inter, certainly not a major tournament. And Angel Di Maria is not there anymore. So it really is Messi most of the time. But he gets a remarkable level of commitment out of the rest of those Argentine players. They have a couple of warriors at center back in Martinez and Romero who do make mistakes, but have a remarkable ability to make up for them often at the other end. And they have battlers all over the pitch. So I think it's going to be an epic, epic contest in that game. And the good thing for England is thank you, Switzerland, for taking Argentina to extra time after that 120 minutes in Miami. I think England will be very, very grateful that they're playing the only team in this tournament that has played more minutes than them to get to this point and is older than them. So that could stand them in good stead. But you just never feel great when I think you look across the halfway line at the start of the game and you see Messi staring back at
- [32:03]
A
you just to mark it as well. Liam, the red card, like Adam said, I was going to call it historic. It's not historic, but it is the first use of this particular ruling, so it's noteworthy.
- [32:15]
E
Yeah, I personally felt it was a justified use. And to put this in context, I think VAR in general should get in the bin. But if we're going to have should review moments that are as egregious as that Mbolo dive, which was just embarrassing. And yeah, I can't believe he can't believe he did that in that moment on a yellow card and expected to get away with it. But he deserved to get sent off. And yeah, they got the right decision.
- [32:50]
B
Are you really buying a car online on Autotrader right now? Really? At a playground? Yeah, really? Look at these listings from dealers. Wow, your search can really get that smell specific. Really? And you just put in your info and boom, car's in your budget. Mom needs a second. Honey, you can really have it delivered. Really? Or I can pick it up at the dealership. One sec, sweetie. Mommy's buying a car. Mommy, I think your kid is walking up the slot.
- [33:15]
G
Kyle.
- [33:15]
B
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- [33:50]
D
I'm Paul Tanorio. I cover soccer for the Athletic.
- [33:53]
B
And I'm Amy Lawrence. I cover football for the Athletic.
- [33:56]
D
Whatever you call it, the biggest competition in the sport is now and the Athletics World cup coverage has everything you need to follow the tournament.
- [34:04]
B
There's 48 countries taking part from the tiny island of Curacao to the five time champions Brazil. Even if you don't know your offside from your onside, if you're eager to know more about the teams, the matches, all the stories on and off the pitch, we've got you sorted.
- [34:19]
D
Maybe you're the kind of person who's already up early every weekend waking the neighbors when your favorite club scores. We'll make sure you get equipped with more information, more insight than anyone you know.
- [34:29]
B
You We've got more than 70 obsessive reporters on the ground covering the ins and outs from every game.
- [34:34]
D
I almost forgot to mention the best part, Amy. Free access to the Athletics World cup coverage in our app.
- [34:40]
B
Download the Athletic app and see you there.
- [34:52]
A
Right, okay. Time now then for our do you know daily trivia quiz. It's day 32 so Liam and Carl eyes in. The question today is do you know which then 32 year old is the only player to score both an own goal and a goal in the World cup final?
- [35:13]
D
Oh it. Oh yes, it is. It's a Croatian player. It's. Is it, is it Mantukic?
- [35:24]
A
It is Mario Manzukic. Mr. Anka, well done, well done. You didn't need the clue of it being a Croatian player. You didn't need the multiple choice of even Perisic and Luka Modric just making you think a little bit. But yeah, congratulations. He scored an own goal and a goal in the 2018 final against France, which obviously was a 42 victory for them. So yeah, well done.
- [35:44]
D
Very Good rain buckets. That day I wore a French kit to go to a party, to watch it with a friend and then while walking home, walked past a bunch of French fans who started speaking to me in French and I was like, oh no, I don't know French. I just like Pogba.
- [35:59]
A
Sorry, nice recollection. Thank you for sharing. I'm sorry to move on from that so quickly, but let's talk about the semi final lineup if we can, Liam, because it's complete. If only someone had predicted, I don't know, France, Spain, England, Argentina as the Final four. Who has impressed you the most to this point? Is it the team that you sort of alluded to before?
- [36:20]
E
Yeah, well done, Gianni. You got there. I mean, France have been the most impressive team for me. They've got, they've already displayed maybe less so in the knockout stage, but certainly throughout the groups that they have an attacking gear that no one else can reach with their collective talent. And I think we've seen in the last couple of knockout games that their defense is at least on par with Spain's as the best in this tournament as well. So I just think all round they have the most complete package. Now that does not mean they can't lose to Spain because Spain have a really clear identity, arguably along with Argentina, the clearest identity in this tournament. I think in terms of the way that they play, they've been incredibly solid despite the fact that they're playing arguably their third best goalkeeper behind it all. And they've managed to not panic when these games have got tight. Even though Lamina Mao, who is there to be their elite difference maker, has not been playing on the level of a lot of the other big names that we've seen in this tournament. We know why that is. We know it's a physical issue that he came into the tournament with, but it's impressive that they've made it look so relatively seamless and drama free. I think Spain, despite all of that, and they have the midfield to keep the ball away from France for long enough to control the game and potentially do damage. But having said that, I do think France will create moments against any team and the moments that they create, they have the players to just finish you off and I think they'll get past Spain and I can't really shake the impression that the winner of that game wins the tournament.
- [38:07]
A
Carl Agree.
- [38:08]
D
Oh, we've seen this before where there's, there's been a World cup, there's been a World cup or a Champions League where there's one semi final where you're going, that's actually the final. I think the France Belgium semifinal in the 2018 World cup was the, the winner of that was going to win the tournament. The difficult annoying thing about this France team is that they've added this new attacking layer on the Deschamps level of control. So you do get 20, 30 minutes while you're watching France and, and it doesn't look that great. It is all about spacing, it is all about that control. And then you, Elise gets on the ball, he stands, he stands someone up and you go, well you're dead because someone's making the run. Kylian Mbappe's top five goal scorers on the planet and yeah, I'm still not quite sure if he's a good forward. Every now and again I look at Kylian Mbappe and I go, you're still better on left wing. Why are you doing this up front? You just get a big man like Mateta to play off of but it doesn't matter because in those two or three split seconds where Mbappe's running centrally, he's so phenomenal and he's ball striking. The great thing about his misses is that when they are just sometimes the width of the post and you're going, oh, you weren't aiming for the right hand side. You're trying to put that postage stamp, putting it completely away from where the goalkeeper can save it. The goal he gets. Against Morocco, I had a play around the VR AI tool the BBC have and it's ridiculous how little sight of the goal Mbappe has before he gets that shot off. But that's why he's one of the greatest goal scorers of our age. And yet I'm so. Aren't you a left winger? Yeah. Scary, scary, scary. If someone is going to stop France it should be Spain and but I, because Nico Williams and Yamal are in this injury affected state, I don't think it's going to be them.
- [39:55]
A
No, no. You said before Liam as well that it's sort of been drama free for Spain but they have needed late goals in the last couple of matches to progress. Mikel Marino delivering both of them. But they've found a way, I suppose and that's another aspect of this quality and this, this style that Spain have got that there are ways of getting over the line even if plan A doesn't quite work perfectly.
- [40:18]
E
Yeah, they have to the maybe the best closer in the tournament in Mikel Moreno just come on and win it
- [40:24]
A
for funny how he's done this, isn't
- [40:25]
D
it a man who absolutely hates penalty shootouts.
- [40:30]
A
Yeah. But even like for Arsenal, he had that spell, didn't he, where he was playing center forward and it just seemed like it brought the very best out in him, too. So despite the fact that he's not a center forward and not a poacher, he's really good at it.
- [40:41]
E
He's just got very intelligent movement. He's physical enough to play as a nine, but he. He's also smart enough not to play as a nine all the time, so I think he's quite hard to pin down. He knows when to run in behind and he clearly has a cool head in these moments where it's two, three minutes left in the game and he's got the best chance and he just takes it. I mean, when I said it was drama free, obviously the late goals are drama, but more in the sense that you haven't really got the sense at any point that Spain are in danger of losing. It's just whether they can win now or later. And Mourinho has helped them win now rather than getting an extra 30 minutes into their legs a couple of times. So I think that has value too. But France are similarly not particularly extended physically, and so I don't think that's a big advantage for Spain. And I just ultimately think that France have more talent, and not just more talent, but all of their best players are pretty much playing at the top of their game.
- [41:38]
A
And it was a gift for Marino, wasn't it, Karl? The goal against Belgium, because Senor Lamon spilled it, came on for, I think, just his third Belgian cap with Thibaut Courtois going off injured. And a horrible moment for him.
- [41:50]
D
Absolutely. Courtois was having an excellent game. Danny Murphy made a quip about how he thought Courtois was doing the tactical goalkeeper momentum reducer, and they were like, oh, no, he's actually injured. What should have been a great moment for Santa Lamans and the moment that I'm sure many Manchester United fans were leaning forward in their seat going, this is it. Um, I've unfortunately ended badly. It's. It's the sort of spill that doesn't always get punished, but when it does, unfortunately, it does tend to be in that most punishing of circumstances. Mourinho does the same thing that we've seen Mbappe do that we saw Jude Bellingham do last night, which is, your teammate is having a shot. Can you. You make the movement towards the goal when everyone is still waking up for the goal for where that ball might spill, you're already making the movement. That's the difference between getting being a 10 goal a season football player and being a 15 goal a season football player. Having that ability to gamble. Unfortunately, Saint Orlands couldn't do it there. We will see where this Belgium team go next. I mean, by all accounts, this is two or three tournaments past the golden generation. That's the last time we're going to see Romelu Kaku at World Cup. That's going to be the last time we see Kevin de Bruyne at World Cup. So now it's going to be the age of Doku and others. And I hope that when the secession occurs for Courtois Lannemans will eventually have the body of work that it's not really a question that he will be
- [43:09]
E
Belgium's number one or it's Mike Pender's time. We'll see.
- [43:15]
A
Has he made the top 50 list? I'm intrigued to see how you managed to get a top 50 list as these teams are getting knocked out.
- [43:23]
E
Well, the good thing is that as teams get eliminated their player, their players don't necessarily immediately disappear. That wouldn't be, that wouldn't be particularly fair because the idea is to end the tournament with a list of these were the 50 best players at the World Cup.
- [43:35]
A
Fair enough.
- [43:36]
E
And at that point they're all out. So yeah, it's more that they slide down as the tournament goes on. And obviously you have to weight these, these games more heavily because they matter the most.
- [43:49]
A
Definitely. Well, we look forward to seeing your piece on the athletic rating those players. Remember, all our World cup coverage on the Athletic app is completely free during the tournament. So get involved and go and have a look. Have a look at that. That's it though for the Athletic FC podcast for today. Carl and Liam, thank you so much for your company. Jack and Adam, thank you for sending in those reports from the US as well. Adam Levantal will be back tomorrow live and direct from nyc. That's what it says in the running order. That's what I'm going to read out. And they'll be there for the whole final week of the tournament. So you've got a lot to look forward to as we build up to the final next weekend. We'll catch you then. Thanks for your company. See you again. Bye bye.
- [44:39]
B
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