Jay Harris (2:52)

Yeah, so when I talk about the decision makers, I'm going to give you a brief answer and then, you know, my good friend to the right is maybe going to peel back the layers of that. Firstly, on who was involved. We know that spurs had Robbie Keane on their list, who's obviously done a pretty decent job at Ferent Varos, Eden Terzic and and Marco Rosa were informally approached. I think Tic wasn't really interested in taking over a club mid season and I think there's interest in from him or in him for a job in the summer. And then Marco Rosa, I think he's still being paid off by RB Leipzig even though he left them quite some time ago. Which brings us on to the decision makers. We know that the Lewis family have had a strong grasp on spurs ever since former executive chairman Daniel Levy left in September. And in theory, which will become clear momentarily, the two people who made this decision were Johann Langer and Vinh Venkateshem. Venkateshem is the. The CEO he already joined in April last year. Lang has been the. The sporting director and the co sporting director, which is a little tease. So it would have been those two who sort of drawn up a list of potential replacements for Thomas Frank and this is the solution they've come to. But I've teased it for too long away.

James Horncastle (4:00)

Well, yeah, I suppose this candidacy for Igoturo was first presented, I'm led to understand, sort of in late November, December time, by someone who's no longer at the club, which is the former co sporting director, Fabio Paratici. Fabio knew Igor Tudor, worked with Igor Tudor. He was Andrea Pirlo's assistant at Juventus where he worked with a couple of the players who are on Tottenham's squad, not particularly available at the moment in Dan Kulusevski and Rodrigo Bentancur. And you know, Paratici, I think very aware of the work that Tudor had done at other clubs as well, which found themselves in similar situations to the one that the spurs find themselves in now, which is essentially in a relegation battle. Tudor had got teams like Udinesi out of trouble on a couple of occasions and then really kind of broke out and showed he was more than that. But, you know, I would struggle to believe that Igor Tudor appealed without really the pushing in the past of Fabio Paratici, who I think even after the sort of North London Derby and how results were already turning sour, then believed that Tudor could be a solution for Tottenham.

Ayo Akimolere (5:14)

Okay, we'll talk about Tudor more in just a second, James, because I want to talk about his previous appointment, Atruventus. But Adam, what do you make of this appointment and also Spurs's decision, I guess, to move away from what they know, usually it'd be someone like Ryan Mason or whatever would be shoehorned into a position like this.

Adam Crafton (5:30)

It's a strange one. I don't think when it, you know, when you heard that Thomas Frank was leaving that anyone would have immediately guessed Igor Tudor and then you kind of look at his CV and you see someone who's not really held down a job for any period of time, for a very long time. I think, like looking back, it's like 2013 for 15. Last time he had a job for more than a year. Clearly that's not the job spec this time it seems to be an interim appointment. So it's like, have they basically just gone for like the Croatian Serie A version of a, you know, a Sam Allardyce, essentially? You know, someone who comes in, wins a few games, does just about enough. The guy who sort of just keeps you in the league, maybe. And, you know, I think if they were to have hired someone with a similar record, I'm not even sure who that would necessarily be from a Premier League perspective because Tudor's got this weird mix of kind of some very significant teams like Juventus and Marseille, but also then kind of Udinese and kind of strange periods.

James Horncastle (6:35)

Galatasaray, the Brentford of Serie A, really.

Adam Crafton (6:38)

Right. Well, I mean, who could that be that you would have hired?

Podcast Host/Producer (6:41)

So.

Adam Crafton (6:43)

It is a strange one. I imagine spurs fans will probably be able to build an argument for it, but, I mean, it's a risk. It does feel like a risk to have someone who's. Who's never been in the Premier League.

Ayo Akimolere (6:57)

That was what I was thinking is, wouldn't it been something a bit safe just to at least go for someone with some sort of Premier League experience? Did I say drag Sam Aladdoes back out of retirement?

Jay Harris (7:05)

Jay well, one thing we should mention is not only has he previously worked with Benson, Cohen, Kulasevski, but he's also previously worked with Randall Kono Muani, who I think scored five or six goals in 11 appearances last season. He's not scored a single Premier League goal and the only goals he scored for spurs in the Champions League were against PSG and Eintracht Frankfurt, his former employer. So for whatever reason, he was getting fired up in those games. So maybe a Spurs get Juventus in the last 16 of the Champions League, which is a possibility that maybe he could turn into prime Thierry Henry or something like that, or prime Harry Kane, maybe. One thing which I think makes life difficult for Igor Tudor, he has no connection to spurs whatsoever.

James Horncastle (7:45)

It's probably for the best.

Jay Harris (7:46)

Surely that's a good thing. No, I mean it in the sense that there's a real disconnect and has been for a long period of time and no interim head coach is going to fix it. But there's a disconnect between the club and the players, the players and the fans. And it was becoming particularly toxic towards the end of Thomas Frank's time, with people chanting about Pochettino, people chanting, you're getting sacked in the morning. So even though normally I don't subscribe to this view, I understood why getting a manager who brings in vibes might have improved the. The mood around the place. Just because the fan base are instantly going to connect with somebody. If it was Robbie Keane, for example, who's got previous history at the club. I think my concern is that Tudor's first four games are not the easiest. Arsenal at home, Fulham away, Palace at home, then Liverpool away. And I just think if he doesn't get four points from those first four games, then the fan base is sort of going to be right back where they were towards the end of Thomas Frank's reign, where they're planning protests against the board and the entire ownership of the club. And it just becomes very messy and it feels like quite a complicated situation for Igor Tudor to be thrust into.

Ayo Akimolere (8:50)

Yeah, for people that don't watch Serie A, James, you know, Igor Tudor was at Juventus. He got sacked in October after just seven months in charge. Just give us a sort of picture as to how that all played out.

James Horncastle (9:02)

Well, look, I mean, he got the Juventus job in March because I suppose he was the Ryan Mason of Juventus. But no, I mean, they. He'd progressed, really. He'd gone from being this guy who would come in a little bit like a firefighter or the wolf from Pulp Fiction. Just as basically your team is in a real mess. He'd come and clean things up, keep you up, but he progressed, really, to being a guy who stopped you from falling out of the kind of lucrative European places. That's why he did at Lazio. That's why he did Juventus. And, you know, he comes in, he ensures that Juventus get back into the top four, qualify for a Champions League. Really, really important for the Club and by no means taken for granted, given the competition for that place in City Hour. When he took over, I think he got the job on a permanent basis. A. Because, you know, it was one of the things that was negotiated when he. He came in as interim that if they got Champions League, the contract would roll over, even if Juventus did kind of get a get out put into that contract. But the thing was, the guy who hired him got sacked. Cristiano Giuntulli. New structure was entrusted to Damian Kemoli, another expert guy, to basically come and put in place. That's taken a while for Kemoli to build. And in the meantime, I think as much as there are reports that Komoli was casting around for a bigger name for Juventus in the summer, because the Club World cup, which Adam really enjoyed reporting on, was right on the horizon. It meant that he couldn't really make a change and so. So stuck with Tudor, fairness to him, carried the momentum from the end of the season through into the Club World cup, where certainly those first couple of games they did so well that they got an audience with Donald Trump in the Oval Office. Juventus, and then they started the season really well in Serie A, albeit if you look at the kind of underlying data, they were getting, results that their performances didn't deserve. And I think you saw the limitations of Tudor through the autumn where, you know, he, yes, he had injuries, but he couldn't really cope with them. He had a really difficult fixture list. Started blaming the fixture computer for getting him the sack.

Ayo Akimolere (11:15)

Right.

James Horncastle (11:15)

Which I think if he looks at the fixer computer, that's, you know, he's.

Jay Harris (11:18)

Been dealt with and, and the injury list. He's been dealt with.

James Horncastle (11:22)

Yeah. It doesn't inspire a lot of confidence. My, my worry, I mean, Jay touched upon it there with those games against Arsenal, Fulham palace and Liverpool coming up, is will he get a fair chance here? Because I think if the North London Derby goes bad, then fans who are already skeptical will be even more skeptical and they don't really trust the board, do they? And he's a board appointee. And so, you know, if things go bad, I think they will have a go at Tudor to have a go at the board. And I think that's never an easy situation to be in. Having said that, you know, hostility in Premier League football grounds is nothing like the hostility that you face in Marseille. In Italian football. Yeah. I think even the loudest spurs protest won't get close to what Tudor had, particularly at Marseille.

Ayo Akimolere (12:14)

Yeah, Adam, you know, you look at the game he's got to start off with North London Derby. Big, big match. I mean, some might say he's been thrust right into the fire pit. You're surprised it's taken spurs this long to replace Thomas Frank or relieve Thomas Frank of his duties?

Adam Crafton (12:30)

No, I think they were being as fair as they probably could be with Thomas Frank, given I don't think it's possible for people outside spurs to tell spurs fans, you know, that they were wrong about Thomas Frank because the results by the end and performances were so disappointing. But I think there was so much context to why he found that job so difficult that it explains possibly why he was given perhaps more time than the results afforded. You know, whether it's the injury list, whether it's, you know, Daniel Levy leaving, whether it's the pretty disappointing summer transfer window that they had all different challenges around, sort of the culture of the squad. So, you know, I think that was. That was kind of why that happened. I don't think it necessarily follows that. If, you know, spurs lose 3 nil at home to Arsenal, that that puts Igor Tudor in a really difficult position. First of all, spurs always lose against Arsenal. It wouldn't be a new thing for spurs to lose against Arsenal, so that shouldn't be like an immediate panic button for spurs fans. Basically, spurs need to win four or five games between now and the end of the season. That is Igor Tudor's job to keep them in the league. And there's been a bit of nostalgia for how things used to be under range. They're still above where they finished last season. You know, that is what was inherited. And that can be kind of framed up as much as anyone wants, as much as Ant Postecogli wants is Basically, we finished 17th on purpose because we were trying to win the Europa League, right?

James Horncastle (14:08)

Not a big club, mate.

Adam Crafton (14:09)

They finished 17th, right. But, you know, so that was what was inherited. So as a result of that, this season was always going to be difficult, particularly when you're then balancing in European football of a higher level in the Champions League as well, where those are always going to be really difficult challenges for Tottenham this season. So I think from Tudor's perspective, he's probably identifying the six or seven games which he believes are winnable and viewing the rest of them as if we can get a point here. Fantastic. Or if we can get a performance here that starts to build confidence in what we're doing. I think that's almost more important.

Podcast Host/Producer (14:52)

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James Horncastle (15:37)

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Jay Harris (16:14)

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Ayo Akimolere (17:04)

Okay James, I'm going to ask you about his playing style in just a second, but whilst we're talking about the board Jay I'm just looking the last three years Antonio Conte, Angiposto Cogli, Thomas Frank alongside Christian Stalini Ryan Mason now at you go to door. I mean how many appointments is that in three years from this Board, obviously Daniel Lev is now departed, but I'm just talking about the, the trust or lack of trust from the fan base with this board.

Jay Harris (17:27)

I think it's also important to point out that not only have you had different head coaches, but you've had different people in charge of the recruitment department. You know, we all know that Levy was very hands on in the transfer process. We know Paratici had his targets that he preferred. Langer is someone who tends to use data. So there's, there's even been a discrepancy in how they should target people. And I just think that is a big reason why things didn't work out for Frank because there's just been so much change and turmoil at this club over the last few years. There's just no stability, there's no alignment to a long term vision. You just look at what's happened in the last year. Mentioned it earlier. Vinay Venkateshen becomes CEO in April and he thinks he's going to be working under Daniel Levy within four months. He's promoted to the, the top job and he's working for the same owners, but the same owners who are taking on a completely different hands on role that they hadn't done previously. You know, Scott Mum was the chief football officer for a long period of time. He's gone. Donna Maria Cullen was an executive who'd been basically Levy's lieutenant for years. She goes, then you've had so much change in the, the medical department, then you've had change in the playing staff, then you've had change in the recruitment department. How on earth is one person supposed to navigate their way through all that? Yes, Thomas Frank made his mistakes, but actually this is just sort of a culture that's been embedded in the last few years where they just have no long term vision or strategy. No clear long term vision or strategy. You make mistake after mistake, the next mistake is made because they're trying to fix the previous mistake. So to come back to your question on whether the fan base trust the hierarchy, the answer is no, because they've been given evidence over a long period of time that they just don't know what they're doing. Last year, as Adam mentioned and as James sort of touched upon, you could sort of frame it as it was a freak season, finishing 17th for the injuries and anyways they won the Europa League, finishing in the bottom half of the table two years in a row, which is more than likely having an injury crisis two years in a row. There are way more people who are responsible for that than just the head coach.

Ayo Akimolere (19:26)

Okay, let's talk about Tudor then, James. He's got a history of short spells. He's had 12 jobs and has only been hired at the season three times. Now, what makes Tudor such a popular choice firstly, but also what style of football is he bringing? You've also described him as a, a Pulp Fiction character. Explain.

James Horncastle (19:47)

It's because he comes in and cleans up a mess and that's why he has had so many jobs. Because, you know, in Italy they do this thing where they, they pigeonhole managers. It's like you are the guy who wins titles, you are the guy who qualifies teams for Europe, you are the guy who, who saves teams and you are the guy that gets teams up. And that's why you see so much managerial churn in Italy. Because you know, a guy who gets a team promoted will be like, yep, thanks, you've done your job, see you later. We're now going to get a guy who can keep a team up. And so that explains why he's had so many jobs. I think in fairness to him, he's sort of managed to break out of just being the guy who comes in in a relegation battle and survives. You know, he, he's taken some quite left field choices in order to break out of that. And he accepted to become Andrea Pillo's number two at Juventus because I think there was an acknowledgment on Juventus part that Andrea Pillo had never coached before and had been thrust into that job just a few weeks after being made the coach of their under 23 team. Didn't even take a game for the under 23 team because Andrea Agnelli basically said, yeah, Andrea, we've sacked Maurizio Sarri, can you do this job? So Tudor did that. Juventus didn't win the league that year for the first time in nine years, but they played really interesting football. They won the cup, they beat Barcelona at the Camp Nou, they did some interesting things. I think credit was given to Tudor for that. And you know, although he got the Verona job after that, which wasn't a Juventus, a Lazio or a Marseille, he did so well with Verona, played really attacking football. 3, 4, 2, 1. I think they had the joint fourth best attack in the league in his time there. Really aggressive, physical team, gets after you. And that's sort of been his style ever since. But I think as you move up to a, not so much a Marseille because he did a better job in terms of points per game than Desert B, for example, think he did a better job at Marseille than anyone apart from Rudy Garcia, you know, outperform people like Bielsa, blah, blah, blah. But I think he's shown himself able to play better football. I think the interesting thing for Spurs, I think what they acknowledge now is like, regardless of system, regardless of what they really need leadership in that dressing room. And I think some of the players were quite severe with Thomas Frank, you know, in terms of thinking, okay, what worked for you at Brenford with all the support staff behind you? He was, I think, quite exposed at Tottenham and looked quite weak. Igor Tudor is not going to look weak. I think if anyone accuses him that he'll have them up against the dressing room. And it might be a bit stereotypical to say sort of sharp elbowed Croatian centre back who played for Juventus is going to come in and really kind of rock the boat. But yeah, I think that there is an acknowledgment at spurs that they really need some discipline, both from the captain who has shown zero discipline. I think in what little business that they did do in the transfer window in January was aimed at kind of solving that. It was like, right, let's try and get Andy Robertson because he'll be a leader. We haven't been able to do that, but we've got Conor Gallagher in. You know, he's a guy who leads by example. I think they needed a management figure who could do that. So, yeah, I think that's one aspect of Two Door that they'll. They'll hope he basically fills that leadership vacuum.

Ayo Akimolere (23:19)

Adam?

Adam Crafton (23:19)

Yeah, I was just going to ask Jay if, if he's going to play that very aggressive, physical style. They've only got about 10 players. No, no. Who are, who are available at the moment. Like, is that, is that a risky way to play with the amount of players that they have and the injury record they have and the number of games they might have?

Jay Harris (23:41)

Yeah, of course it's risky because I think what some people don't appreciate is that I think they've got 12 available senior outfield players, but the more you play them, their risk of injury goes up. So the chances of this just continuing is probably extremely high. Also our colleague Mark Carey, he wrote a piece a couple of weeks ago and it was more centered around when Rosinia was appointed at Chelsea. But when new managers come in, the chances of players picking up injuries is increases because they're moving position, they're being asked to do different things. So, for example, I'm not saying this is the reason why. But Jed Spence suffered a calf injury a couple of weeks ago and it was around the time Frank had moved him from left back to left wing. So it's a, it's a huge risk. You look at the players who are out for Tottenham at the moment, maybe Porro and Richarlison are the closest back, but Kudas is out until after the March international break, which means April Kulasevski and Madison are, yeah, TBC.

Ayo Akimolere (24:38)

Who knows?

Jay Harris (24:38)

Who knows TBC? Dragason is coming off the back of 11 months out with an ACL injury and because of Romero's suspension and Dan so's ligament injury is gonna have to play a lot. So you're right to ask that question, madam, because Eagle Tudor has a real difficult dilemma because if he wants to play the way he wants to play, he could run those players into the ground. But they need to show some sort of more energy and intensity because one of the things which really let them down under Frank is that they started games so poorly and sort of had to rely on these mad helter skelter 30, 40 minute periods in the second half to sort of gain a point and they just would always run out of steam.

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James Horncastle (27:05)

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Ayo Akimolere (27:13)

If Tudor does a good job, there could be an idea that he could be here much longer than he's been prescribed to be. Is that something that suits a guy like this? Considering we've talked about his interims positions in various other clubs.

James Horncastle (27:26)

Well, I mean I offered the context as to why he got the Juventus job on a permanent basis. Partly because the structure behind him was in flux, but also partly because, you know, he's Juventus. You know, I think there was a recognition that he brought stability, he understood the club, those sort of things. Lazio, he did enough to keep the job on a permanent basis and decided to walk of his own volition because he didn't believe that the club shared his own vision, which was you need to get rid of eight players here. So look, I mean I think as much as people say I saw, I think, you know, Sky Sports News, a few of the ex pros were saying this guy can only fail and but I think from his point of view, whilst there is obvious risk, I think he thinks this is I can put myself in the shop window here for the Premier League, you know, even though spurs have come out and said it's interim only and then there'll be a review at the end of the season. I think if he does enough to keep them up and shows he can keep Premier League clubs in the division, then it will give other clubs who find themselves in similar situations, they'll be like, oh right, okay, maybe we should consider that Tudor guy in the same way that clubs have considered Nuno, for example, in the past. You get your foot in the door on this stage. I do think it's really important. There are other jobs available in the Summer palace, for example, when Glasner leaves. So I think it's about putting your best foot first, advertising yourself. And you know, regardless of whether he gets the job or not on a permanent basis, I'd be surprised if there is a Even when, if spurs do well, I'd be surprised if there's like a swell of support from the stands Tottenham Stadium saying give Tudor the four Year deal. I don't think it's like United having Carrick or something like that. And as I said, I just. I think the board. There's still such a lack of trust in this board's ability to make the right decision that I think he's just got to look at it as an opportunity and that's it.

Jay Harris (29:25)

Can I throw a curveball?

Ayo Akimolere (29:26)

Come on, then.

Jay Harris (29:27)

Would you want the job permanently if you're him? I don't mean that in a disrespectful way.

Ayo Akimolere (29:33)

Throw that to Adam.

Jay Harris (29:34)

I'm interested in his, Let me just quickly say, because there's a reason for that and it's because, you know, if he comes in and keeps spurs up, his stock is at his absolute highest. Spurs are probably going to have a real challenging summer. You know, our colleague David Ornstein, he reported last week that there was interest in Lucas in the transfer window. You've got players like Mickey Van de Ven, Dominic Solanke, who are, you know, experienced internationals and don't want to be a club that's not competing in Europe. Dominic Solanke, you know, when he. He left Bournemouth, that was his whole thing. I want to be in the Europa League, in the Champions League. If they're going to be sort of in this transitional era where they're not in Europe, they've got some players who are quite young and they're sort of growing. Does Tudor want to sort of be involved and be the person who sort of leads that project on? I don't know.

James Horncastle (30:21)

I think also the very fact you've framed that question that way, I think it explains perhaps why Tudor has got the job and I think on an interim basis, because I think there'd probably be quite a few managers who've looked at this situation, think, my stock will only go down. They've put on Sky Sports news that they can only fail. And so, like, I think as much as. As much as you can maybe criticize, like, Langer and the executive team there for, like, oh, you've just. You've just gone for the candidate that was left in the draw by Fabio Bradshaw. It's probably like the. The candidates that they had in mind were just like, thanks, but no thanks, lads, not for us.

Ayo Akimolere (31:00)

What do you think, Adam?

Adam Crafton (31:02)

Yeah, I think you're right. I was looking at his. He posted a picture, or I think more more accurately, Fabrizio Romano post posted. Posted a picture on his behalf of Igor Tudor, an agent and just a bowl of apples.

James Horncastle (31:19)

Big bowl of apples.

Adam Crafton (31:19)

A private jet. Yeah, a big bowl of apples. So it made me think he might need the permanent job so that he can have more of a variety of luxury food and drink next time he flies in for a job. I mean, there's other jobs that, you know, you'd imagine Bournemouth might be available next summer, that Brighton could be available this summer. You know, the way it's going for Hertzler at the moment, Fulham could be available if Marco Silva leaves. So there's a lot of kind of like what I think we've come to think of as middling Premier League clubs that are quite safe, not completely safe, but quite safe, that give you a good platform to shine. So, yeah, they could in some ways be more appealing than Tottenham. I mean, if I was Tottenham, I wouldn't worry too much about any of their players leaving. I don't think there's anyone that Tottenham could sell this summer that would be a major crisis for the club as long as they get the right deal for them. Even Micky Van de Ven. I mean, okay, if he doesn't want to be at a club that's not in Europe, then sell him and rebuild with that money. I think the challenge that Tottenham have is that, as the guys have said, there's just so little trust in how that money will then be spent. So I think it's less about what you lose, it's more about what might come in.

Ayo Akimolere (32:35)

Okay. Right, let's leave it there, gents. Really appreciate it. Jay, Adam, also James as well. We appreciate your time and also thank you guys for joining us as well. We'll be back soon.

Podcast Host/Producer (32:47)

You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroot and Jay Beal. The executive producer was Aimee Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual PlayStations. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.

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Kim Holderness (34:22)

We all have moments where we could have done better. Like cutting your own hair.

James Horncastle (34:26)

Yikes.

Kim Holderness (34:27)

Or forgetting sunscreen so now you look like a tomato. Ouch. Could have done better. Same goes for where you invest. Level up and invest smarter with Schwab. Get market insights, education, and human help when you need it. Learn more at schwab. Com.