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- [00:00]
A
Morning Zoe. Got donuts.
- [00:02]
B
Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage?
- [00:05]
A
Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T mobile commercial like you teach me. So Dana.
- [00:12]
B
Oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at t mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.
- [00:24]
A
Wow, impressive. Let me try. T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.
- [00:31]
C
Nice.
- [00:32]
B
J free.
- [00:32]
D
You heard them.
- [00:33]
A
T Mobile is the best place to.
- [00:35]
D
Get the new iPhone 17 Pro on.
- [00:37]
E
Us with eligible traded in any condition.
- [00:40]
A
So what are we having for lunch?
- [00:42]
B
Dude, my work here is done.
- [00:44]
D
The 24 month bill credits on experience beyond for well qualified customers plus tax and 35 device connection charge. Credit same and balance due if you pay off earlier Cancel Finance Agreement. IPhone 17 Pro 256 gigs 1099.99 and new line minimum 100 plus a month plan with auto pay plus taxes and fees required. Best mobile network in the US based on analysis by Oklahoma Speed Test Intelligence Data 1H 2025 Visit T mobile.com hey, Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now I don't know if you've heard but Mint's Premium Wireless is $15 a month. But I'd like to offer one other perk. We have no stores. That means no small talk crazy weather we're having. No, it's not. It's just weather. It is an introvert's dream. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment.
- [01:24]
B
Of $45 for three month plan $15 per month equivalent required.
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D
New customer offer first three months only.
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B
Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com.
- [01:34]
F
The next evolution in football storytelling, Football Manager is back in our lives. Made with the Unity engine for the first time, Football Manager 26 refreshes the managerial experience and sets the stage for you to define your football destiny. Wild nights with Tommy Spindle, Arsenal and Cherno Samba. Check. Memories of a much better in the game than in real life. Toribo West. Check. Check. Chances are if you're listening to this podcast, Football Manager has been part of your life since you were a teenager. Well, FM26 is going to give you the richest matchday experience ever with enhanced player movement and greater on pitch detail, bringing new levels of depth and drama to every single match. In FM26 you can compete at the pinnacle of English football as the Premier League debuts. With fully licensed club badges, kits and official player photos. And with a completely overhauled UI by the genius developers at Sports Interactive, every aspect, from training to tactics to transfers, belongs to you and your vision. FM26 launches from November 4th across platforms and you can pre purchase right now on Steam or epic to get 10% off and advance access available approximately two weeks before the official street date. So change the game with Football Manager 26, where football belongs to you and your vision. Pre order now.
- [02:46]
D
The Athletic fc.
- [02:50]
E
Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. Juventus have sacked Igor Tudor and are set to a point to Luciano sp. With the ghost of Cristiano still haunting the club, are they in crisis? Well, with me to talk through it, we've got the Athletics, James Horncastle with us right now. James, it's been a while. Good time to have a little rundown of Serie A, see what's going on. It's also a league that's never dull or actually lacking in drama. So let's start with Juventus. Let's start with the sacking of Igor Tudor. On earth has happened there.
- [03:25]
C
Well, I mean, Juventus would look at it and say results, the results just have not been there. They were winless in eight games going into this midweek round and so they sacked Tudor on Monday. And in some respects it wasn't a surprise because within that winless run, they'd lost their last three games. They'd failed to score in any of them. But f the second manager, this soon is very unusual. You know, you have to go back 55 years to see them intervene this early. And also to be the first club in the league to sack their manager this season really shows how drastic the executives within the club felt the situation is.
- [04:08]
E
Okay, and who's taken charge? Is it a caretaker situation? How is that working right now?
- [04:12]
C
So on Wednesday night they played Udinese, they got back to winning ways and there was a stand in an interim coach, Massimo Brambilla. Brambilla, who used to play for the club, he's been coaching their next gen team, which is a little bit like Barcelona B, Real Madrid, Castilla, they play in the third division. It's a way of getting young players to play men's football and then bridge the gap. But his record going into this one off game that he was coaching was four defeats in five. So again, it's not looking good. It just gives you a bit of a broader picture of the whole situation at Juventus. So Brambilla won this game, 3:1 against Studineze. So winless runs over goalscoring droughts over, but there's a new coach in charge, and that is Luciano Spaletti.
- [05:04]
E
Okay, yeah, let's get to Luciano Spaletti. Many will know, obviously the man that brought Serie A back to Napoli after so many years. And also the Italian national team. How did this all come together? Who sat there and went, yeah, that's our guy.
- [05:16]
C
Well, it's very interesting what's going on at the top of the club at Juventus at the moment, because they have a relatively new general manager who will not be unfamiliar to fans of Liverpool and Tottenham because it's Damian Kemoli. And I suppose the surprise for me is that, you know, maybe 10, 15 years ago, Komoli was seen as this kind of up and coming executive. You know, brings data analytics, scouting, knowledge of the European market to the Premier League. But it does feel a little bit passe, I suppose, from Juventus. To entrust the running of the football operations of the club to Camoli, who is learning Italian, has never worked in Italy before. Italy is a football country, is very proud of the coaches it produces, the executives it produces. And so whenever a foreigner comes in, there is, why is this guy better than us? So there's skepticism of Kemoli, skepticism of his decision to extend Igor Tudor's contract in the summer because Tudor himself was an interim coach who came in in March to replace Thiago Motta. Been a lot of rumors about other coaches turning Kemoli down in the summer. Antonio Conte, Gianpiero Gasparini, and then some of the signings that Camogi has made in the summer have not really worked. Jonathan David on a free transfer from Lille. Lois Appenda, late signing from RB Leipzig. Zigrova, also from Lille. Those players have struggled so far, but this is the first managerial appointment that Camoli has made, I think with some input from Giorgio Chiellini. Chiellini, who retired a couple of years ago and is now the director of football strategy at the club. You know, I think Chiellini will have impressed upon Camogli the need to have an experienced Italian coach at a delicate moment in the club's recent history.
- [07:21]
E
Well, James, we've got a question from our YouTube channel. Basically says, what's the sentiment in Italy regarding Spalletti after his shortcomings with the national team? Are Juventus fans excited about the appointment since they know he's capable of winning Serie A, obviously with Napoli, or are they cautiously optimistic after watching him lead the national team?
- [07:40]
C
Well, Spalletti, upon getting this job, you know, has said, you know, I want to kind of close the wound that opened up whilst I was national team coach because, you know, he recently published an autobiography which had the title Heaven Exists but God, it's Hard to Get There. And the heaven he was talking about was getting the national team job. You know, it was, I think, something that he'd aspired to do. And, you know, what should have been heaven for him turned out to be hell. And I have some sympathy for him because people forget the circumstances in which he got the job. He just left Napoli, he was going to have a sabbatical, basically, be on his vineyard in Tuscany, tend to his wine, tend to his farm animals. And then Roberto Mancini, out of nowhere, quits the national team job to go and take the Saudi national team job. And so the Italian Football Federation scrambling around, what can we do? Let's try and get Spalletti. Spalletti comes in midway through qualifying for the European Championships. A lot of pressure on him because qualifying under Mancini had not started well. And so he gets them to the Euros, and Italy are a big disappointment. You know, they go out to Switzerland and it wasn't so much who they went out against, but the performance was one of the most insipid that many fans could remember. Some people thought he should have quit there and then, but he hadn't been in the job a year. And so he stayed on, put some really good performances together against France. But when it came to World cup qualifying, that started in sort of June, July 1 game, they lose 3 0. In fact, they're 30 down to Norway at halftime. And it was at that moment that it seemed not only was he unable to play the football that he told everyone he was going to make Italy play, but there were some clashes with senior players on the national team, like Francesco Acerbi, for example. So he is coming into this Juventus job not exactly looking for redemption, but as his former collaborator, this guy Valto Sabatini, said, this job is pure morphine for him. Pain relief, okay. And Juventus are also. Indeed.
- [10:02]
E
It'S a good way of putting it. But I do also wonder, the Spoletti thing is that, you know, sometimes, you know, coaching in the league system versus national team doesn't suit some people. Because if you think about the amount of time you have with the players when you're coaching them in the league or working with them pre season, all that, you get to the national team stage. It's so hard to translate those ideas in such a quick time when you don't really have much time with those Players either.
- [10:24]
C
Yeah, it really is. Particularly, you know, when he got the job, sort of In September of 2021, it was instant pressure and they were in a group with England. England were going to run away with that group. So it was all about making sure they finished second. And I think they were a couple of games behind Ukraine in terms of Ukraine had played games in hand. So it was always this tension. And then, as you say, you play those internationals between September, October, November, December, and then you don't see the players for three months. It's almost like you're always having to start again. And he's someone who plays really avant garde football as much as he's someone that has been around the block for a long, long time now. Spalletti's football is always cutting edge, but when you've got so little time with the players, it's really difficult to introduce those concepts, particularly when they're players coming in and out the squad with injury. He. He ultimately clashed with senior players, as I mentioned. But also I always remember after they drew against Croatia to get through the group in Leipzig, I was there, and the first question in the press conference was, yesterday, you must have had this kind of crisis meeting with the players, you know, and all this sort of thing. And there were journalists who asked that question, was out of nowhere, just accused of, who's telling you this? You know, where is your leak? Who is the mole? The mole is hurting the national team. And it was one of those moments where they just had this euphoric draw against Croatia with this great goal from Zakani late on, and he couldn't even enjoy that. Yeah. There is a sense that Sporty is always looking over his shoulder, always suspecting that someone's got it in for him. But having said that, I think he is arguably the brightest Italian coach of his generation. Conte's one more. Allegri's one more. Gasprini's probably changed the game in Italy more, but in terms of just being extraordinarily bright, Spalletti, I think, is the brightest.
- [12:28]
E
Right, Coming up next, how Juve got here and why they're still being haunted by the ghost of Cristiano Ronaldo.
- [12:37]
F
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Accumulere.
- [12:44]
A
Morning, Zoe. Got donuts.
- [12:46]
B
Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage?
- [12:49]
A
Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T Mobile commercial like you teach me. So, Dana.
- [12:55]
B
Oh, no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly AT T Mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera slot system.
- [13:07]
E
Wow.
- [13:08]
A
Impressive. Let me try T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network. Nice.
- [13:15]
B
Jeffrey, you heard them.
- [13:17]
A
T Mobile is the best place to.
- [13:18]
D
Get the new iPhone 17 Pro on.
- [13:20]
E
Us with eligible traded in any condition.
- [13:24]
A
So what are we having for lunch?
- [13:25]
B
Dude, my work here is done.
- [13:27]
D
The 24 month credit is on experience beyond for well qualified customers tax and 35 advice connection charge credit send and balance duty payoff arrangements earlier Cancel Finance Agreement iPhone 17 Pro 256 gigs $1,099.99 and new line minimum $100 plus a month plan with auto pay plus taxes and fees required Best mobile network in the US based on analysis by Oaklove Speed Test Intelligence data 1H 2025 visit t mobile.com Hair loss isn't just about hair. It's about how you feel when you look in the mirror. HIMS helps you take back that confidence with access to simple personalized care that fits your life. HIMS offers convenient access to a range of prescription hair loss treatments with ingredients that work, including chews, oral medication, serums and sprays. Dr. Trusted clinically proven ingredients like finasteride and minoxidil can stop further hair loss and regrow hair in as little as three to six months. For simple online access to personalized and affordable care for hair loss, ED, weight loss and more, visit hims.com Athletic24 that's hims.com Athletic24 for your free online visit himss.com Athletic24 Individual results may vary based on studies of topical and oral minoxidil and finasteride. Featured products include compounded drug products which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety, effectiveness or quality. Prescription required. See website for full details, restrictions and important safety information.
- [14:45]
B
If you're a custodial supervisor at a local high school, you know that cleanliness is key and that the best place to get cleaning supplies is from Grainger. Grainger helps you stay fully stocked on the products you trust, from paper towels and disinfectants to floor scrubbers. Plus, you can rely on Grainger for easy reordering so you never run out of what you need. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [15:21]
E
James let's take a quick step back and talk about leadership at the top of the club. You may have a different chairman. Firstly, who's in charge but also, what does a crypto firm have to do with this all?
- [15:30]
C
A lot of the time that I've been covering Juventus, Andrea Agneli has been the chairman, he's no longer the chairman. 2022, during the world Cup, I remember I was covering Brazil and my phone starts going crazy. And it was because Andrea Agnelli had resigned and the entire board had resigned. That resignation came because there were investigations into Juventus financial affairs, particularly player trading. Since then, Andrea Agnelli's cousin John Elkann, who is the chairman of the holding company that has all of the various Agnelli family interests in it, that includes Ferrari, includes newspapers, includes a company called Stellantis, which, you know, all the European cars that are made in kind of France and Italy are within Stellantis. You know, it's the big job if you're in Agnelli. And so when Andrea resigned, John basically put people from other companies within the Agnelli empire to run Juventus. But running Juventus that stage really was kind of, you're on the defensive because you've got UEFA investigating you, you've got the Italian Football Federation investigating you, you've got prosecutors in civil and criminal cases investigating you. So it's kind of like, okay, chief executive of Juventus for the next year has to deal with all of that. In the meantime, they've got Max Allegri as coach. Allegri is so experienced, broad shoulders, that he can look after the football side on his own. Andrea Agnelli had basically brought Allegri back, giving him a long term contract, expensive contract. So even if the club wanted to go in a different direction, it was like we have to wait really until Allegri's contract expires. Allegri gets the sack after kind of falling out with a new sporting director. That new sporting director who worked with Spalletti at Napoli. Cristiano Giuntoli, seen as the best in class. Sporting director signed your boy Victor Osimhen Kvaratskhelia. He's the guy who's going to relaunch. Juve Giuntulli comes in, he hires Thiago Motta, the up and coming young coach in Italian football. It looks like John El Cam and the leadership team at Juventus have got the tandem they need to recruit players and win games on the pitch. And it's a disaster. It goes completely wrong. I think one of the great legacies Andrea Agnelli left was that Juventus next gen team that I talked about, which has this team in the third division. So the young players in the academy can go and play against men.
- [18:05]
E
So that's his legacy really that well.
- [18:06]
C
I mean he's got lots of things to go to his legacy. But in terms of making Juventus self sustainable and not having to go in the transfer market to buy players, they could recruit very, very young, very, very early for this next gen team, give them a year experience, bring them into the first team and then the first team would benefit from that. So there are lots of reasons why Cristiano Jontali only lasted as sporting director at Juventus for one year. But Dean Hoisen was one of these players who assigned for next gen, gets into the first team, goes on loan to Roma, should come back, be the centre back for Juventus for the next five, 10 years and Giuntuli short sightedly sells him to Bournemouth. And where is Dean Huyson now?
- [18:51]
E
Real Madrid. Wow. Imagine that. Imagine that transfer.
- [18:55]
C
Exactly. There's been a lot of criticism of Andrea Agnelli's cousin John Elkann because people draw comparisons with one of the other businesses that is in the Anieli empire, Ferrari. Now Ferrari as a car business, great business, makes a lot more money than Juventus. But if you look at the sporting side of Ferrari, the Formula one, Formula.
- [19:19]
E
One is the one that came to mind. Yeah.
- [19:21]
C
People think that John Elkins made the same mistake as his cousin Andrea Nieli did with Cristiano Ronaldo in saying, let's get Lewis Hamilton at this stage in his career to be the driver for our F1 team, paying him lots of money. It hasn't turned Ferrari around and Ferrari now have gone an awful long time without winning an F1 championship. But I would say in John Elkann's mitigation that if you come to me a year ago and said what should Juventus do to be competitive and start winning again? I would have said hire Cristiano Giuntali and appoint Thiago Motta. Which they did.
- [20:00]
E
Yes, which they did.
- [20:02]
C
So now that Juntli got the sack, Motta got the sack, Kemole's come in, Tudor got the sack, it now looks like it's a volatile mess. But I think the process at least a year ago was the right process. And because that was botched and kind of torn up and thrown into the bin very quickly, it looks like there's a lot of confusion at the club and that Juventus is struggling to be Juventus again.
- [20:30]
E
Okay, we have to talk about Cristiano Ronaldo. You mentioned his name there and he got me thinking. Actually there's a piece out right now on the Athletic about how Juve are still suffering from the Money spent on Cristiano Ronaldo, a man that was supposed to bring Champions League back to Juventus. It didn't happen. Why are they still suffering?
- [20:52]
C
The short story here is that in Covid, Juventus were negotiating salary reductions for all of their players, and Cristiano was the highest earner. It was up for dispute whether they reached an agreement to reduce his salary or not. When Cristiano left, he claimed that there were still outstanding monies owed to him. Juventus and Cristiano Ronaldo have been in arbitration for the last couple of years. Initially, there was an award given to Cristiano which was, juventus have to pay you. Juventus appealed that. Paid half of it straight away. Ronaldo appealed that. And in January, there will be kind of a definitive judgment as to whether Juventus have to pay all of this 19.6 million that Cristiano Ronaldo claims he is due. You know, whenever I write about this, people say, you're blaming Ronaldo. I'm not blaming Ronaldo. I'm blaming the decision to sign Ronaldo because it was Juventus decision to pay more than 100 million in a transfer fee for him when he was in his 30s.
- [22:00]
E
30S, right. Yeah.
- [22:01]
C
It was Juventus decision to pay him the salary that they did, which I think was more than 30 million net, which is three or four times what their next highest earner was making. That set off a sequence of events which have led Juventus to where they are now. Yeah. They signed Cristiano because they'd been to two Champions League finals in the preceding three years. They then reached this quarterfinal in 2018. They play real Madrid. Ronaldo has one of his most iconic games against Juventus at the Allianz Stadium in Turin.
- [22:31]
E
He scores.
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C
It's the overhead, mate.
- [22:33]
E
They were applauding him, weren't they?
- [22:35]
C
Exactly. So he feels at that stage that he's no longer getting the love that he wants from Real Madrid. He sees the crowd in Chin, get on their feet and applaud him, and he's like, maybe one day I could see myself playing for Juventus. The second leg, Juventus come back from 30 down. It's 3 3. Then, at the last minute, penalty given against them. Ronaldo steps up, scores. It puts them out. Buffon accuses the referee, Michael Oliver, of having a dustbin for a heart for giving that penalty away. What happens a couple of months later? Juventus sign Ronaldo. You're the missing piece. You're the guy who we were missing when we reached those two Champions League finals and lost to Barcelona and Real Madrid. But Juventus, to give them their due, were unlucky you know, they signed Cristiano. They've already done a TV deal, the league has, so it doesn't take advantage of this Ronaldo uplift and Covid strikes. Covid strikes at a time when you've taken the biggest risk of that era. At Juventus, Covid strikes in Italy first. In Europe, stadiums are closed first, and they're the latest to reopen as well. So for, I think 18 months, two years of Ronaldo's, three years at the club, it's in Covid. And that means you're just bleeding, cash bleeding. But also you've kind of committed to this and you're like, okay, we need to sort of make this work. We need to try and win this Champions League in the short window. We've got Cristiano, so let's go and buy Matthijs de Ligt. Let's swap Miralan Pjanic for Arthur from Barcelona. They're trying to balance the books, and it causes all the problems that lead to this investigation against them, which ultimately concludes with the resignation of Agneli and his board. The interesting thing is, is that the club. Because Exor. Yeah, the Agnelli family holding company is one of the wealthiest companies in Europe. They've got the broad shoulders to be able to kind of reboot Juventus. But these reboots that we've been talking about, the Junt Motta reboot, it didn't work. And they invested so much money in that. This time last year, you know, one of the big signings, Douglas Louise from Aston Villa. Where is he now?
- [24:50]
E
Forest.
- [24:50]
C
He's at Forest.
- [24:51]
E
Can you imagine that? I thought that was going to be a great sign.
- [24:54]
C
Yeah. Nico Gonzalez as well, he's on loan at Athletico Madrid. And, you know, to add insult to injury, it came out last week that Juventus are facing an investigation from UEFA about a potential financial fair play breach, which, again, we'll hear about in January. So that makes an already difficult situation even more difficult in terms of, you know, if we get to January and Luciano Spalletti says, I need a number six, what are they going to do? How are they going to go about.
- [25:27]
E
Do they have the money? Can they find the money?
- [25:29]
C
So they have, as I said, this majority shareholder, Exxon, one of the wealthiest companies in Europe, which has bailed Juventus out to the tune of almost a billion over the last eight years. Since that Ronaldo deal, they've had to cover the costs over and over again. Go back to the shareholders, say, right, we need to inject more capital into the club. But the interesting Thing, I suppose, is next week there is an AGM where a new board will be appointed. Exor. The Elkan Anieli family will have its appointees make its recommendations. But there's this new company, Tether, the crypto firm. Okay, here they come in, which has been buying up shares in Juventus on the stock exchange. And it's been interesting to see them incrementally increase their shareholding, which I think is now maybe 11%. So not. Not a big amount, but it's the first time, really, that we've seen a company start buying into Juventus. I was out at the club World cup in America. My colleague, the intrepid Adam Crafton, was doing what Crafton does best. He went to a Juventus game I couldn't get to, and it was the game after they'd been in the White House, remember? Oh, yes, yes, yes. All lined up, Juventus in the Oval Office with Donald Trump talking about strikes in Iran, talking about LGBTQ trans rights and that sort of thing. But it was interesting because John Elkam, the head of the Annealy family, was in the Oval Office as well. And, you know, people were linking that, okay, Trump's bringing in tariffs. What's that going to mean for the European car industry? And then, obviously, now you've got tether and crypto, which is completely separate. You know, Tether is, I think, run by a couple of Italians with links to Turin. They have nominated someone for the board. You look at it and you think, okay, these guys mean business. And then you look that they've nominated kind of a dentist to be on the board at uwe. And again, this is a real head scratcher. You're like, what? Like, okay, these guys have maybe been valued at something like 500 billion. What's going on here? So it's just a lot that makes you scratch your head at Juventus at the moment.
- [27:48]
E
Coming up next, why is there such a high managerial turnover in Serie A?
- [27:59]
A
Morning. Zoe got donuts.
- [28:01]
B
Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage?
- [28:04]
A
Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T Mobile commercial like you. Teach me. So, Dana.
- [28:11]
B
Oh, no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at T Mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.
- [28:22]
A
Wow, impressive. Let me try. T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network. Nice.
- [28:30]
B
Jeffrey, you heard them.
- [28:32]
A
T Mobile is the best place to.
- [28:33]
D
Get the new iPhone 17 Pro on.
- [28:36]
E
Us with eligible trade in in any condition.
- [28:39]
A
So what are we having for launch?
- [28:40]
B
Dude, my work here is done.
- [28:42]
D
It's 24 month ago. Credits on experience beyond for well qualified customers plus tax and $35 device connection charge. Credit send and balance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel Finance Agreement iPhone 17 Pro 256 gigs $1,099.99 A new line minimum $100 plus a month plan with auto pay plus taxes and fees required. Best mobile network in the US based on analysis by Ooklove Speed Test Intelligence data 1H2025Visit T mobile.com youm hired a new employee. Time to get to work, right? Not quite. First comes HR software for payroll and benefits. Then IT tools to manage devices and app access and finance software for expenses. Oh, and none of these softwares work together. That's sad. Software as a disservice. Rippling lets you run hr, IT and finance on one unified platform with automations that save time and connect your workflows. For a limited time. You can get six months of rippling free when you sign up at rippling.com podcast. That's R I P P L-I-N G.com podcast terms and conditions apply.
- [29:39]
B
If you're a custodial supervisor at a local high school, you know that cleanliness is key and that the best place to get cleaning supplies is from Grainger. Grainger helps you stay fully stocked on the products you trust, from paper towels and disinfectants to floor scrubbers. Plus you can rely on Grainger for easy reordering so you never run out of what you need. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.
- [30:15]
F
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akamolere.
- [30:18]
E
Let's move away from Juventus and talk about Serie A in general. Napoli up top. I think Roma second at the moment.
- [30:25]
C
Joint.
- [30:25]
E
Joint.
- [30:26]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [30:27]
E
Now something that also fascinates me is this sort of managerial merry go round we're seeing. I think we were talking about it just before we started recording. Look, the longest serving manager in Serie A is Fabio Grosso from Swasolo. Okay? Yeah, he was appointed in June 2024. It's only a year ago, like mind boggling. But when we talk about names like Spalletti coming back to Juve, Allegri left, Juve goes to Milan. Yeah, even in the U of A conversation we talk about Mancini. Does Italy have a problem here? I mean, is this something we need to discuss.
- [31:01]
C
James. It's interesting, IO. I think you've. You've hit upon something there. I mean, there's been a lot of volatility, not only at Juventus, but up and down the league in the last year. And I would say that, you know, city has had this mini renaissance over the last five years if you look at their competitiveness in European football. So the first edition of this expanded Champions League with the league face. I think you did the draw.
- [31:26]
E
Yes.
- [31:26]
C
You explained.
- [31:27]
E
Explain the draw. I tried my best to.
- [31:28]
C
Yeah. IO will have explained that there were five Serie A teams in the first edition because Serie A had topped the coefficient. I would say that, you know, if you look into reaching Europa League final, two Champions League finals, not winning any of them. Roma winning the first ever Conference League, reaching the Europa League final as well. Atalanta winning the Europa League, first time an Italian club had won that since Parma at the turn of the century. Fiorentina reaching back to back Conference League finals. Quite a lot of that was because all of those clubs had stability. So, you know, Gasparini, Atalanta, he was there for eight or nine years. Stefano Pioli at Milan was there for five or six years. Simone Inzaghi, who's just gone to Al Hilal, he was at Inter for four years. Yeah. Even Jose got two and a half seasons at Roma. So there was a lot of stability and a lot of young coaches coming through as well. So when I was talking about Spalletti earlier, I said Gasparini's probably influenced the Italian game more. What I meant by that is just disciples that he's had guys who played under him who came into the league. One was Thiago Motta, who was at Juventus for eight months. He got that job because he qualified Bologna for the Champions League for the first time ever. You then had Raffaello Palladino, who got Fiorentina to Conference League semi final. He then fell out with Fiorentina. Sport left and they brought Stefano Pioli back. Ivan Jurich as well. Uric is another Gasparini disciple. He's now in charge of Atalanta, the guy who replaced Gasp. But it does feel like a lot of those young coaches. Palladino Motta, Deserdeby deserts.
- [33:13]
E
It's not Marseille.
- [33:14]
C
Deserbi went to Brighton, didn't come back to Italy. He went to Marseille instead. Could even say Maresca. Even though Maresca, you know, has obviously been spent most of his coaching career working with Man City's development squad, being an assistant to Pep Leicester Had a brief spell with Palmer in the second division, but mainly has learned his trade abroad. And instead, if we look at the league now, Allegri is back at Milan for a second spell. Spalletti, you know, after coaching Inter, after coaching Roma, after coaching Napoli, he's now coach of Juventus. Maurizio Sari is back as well for a second spell at Lazio, having coached at Napoli and having coached the Juventus. Pioli, who before Inzaghi went to Saudi Arabia, Pioli's back at Fiorentina for a second spell and then of course, Conte is at Napoli. So as much as some Italian newspapers have sent reporters down to Naples to talk to locals about how they feel about Spalletti being the Juventus coach, when he's got a Napoli tattoo on his forearm, Neapolitan's like, oh, yeah, well, it's a real shame, but we've got the Juventus guy in charge of us now, Antonio Conte. So on the one hand it just shows how transactional Italian football is. Leave your loyalties aside in this country where loyalty is extremely highly valued. But it also feels like we've course corrected, we've got all of these league title winning coaches. Allegri, Spalletti, Sarri, Pioli, context. Mancini on the sidelines, you know, hasn't been given a job. You're looking at this and thinking, where are the new up and coming coaches aside from the ones that I mentioned in sort of Paladino, Motta, De Zerbi and Maresca, where are they coming through when you've got these old headed coaches? In the same way we've got all these old headed players now. Luka Modric, you know, winning man of the match awards for Milan, De Bruyne, who has just suffered this really bad thigh injury and he's not going to be playing until the new year. Jamie Vardy.
- [35:23]
E
Oh, he banged one in. He banged one in.
- [35:26]
C
He did. He banged one in last week.
- [35:29]
E
I know it's rebounded, but he banged one in.
- [35:31]
C
James, come on, he did. So Vardy's off the mark but, you know, again, like, you know, he's taken a while, he's not been starting every game. Turi, Immobile, came back from Turkey to play for Bologna and Immobili got injured in his first game. Edin Dzeko came back from Turkey to be one of the backups with Fiorentina. So it's really interesting. I would say the last few years have been encouraging about Italian football, European performances. Young coaches like De Zerbi coming through Young players moving to the Premier League. You look now Gigi Donarumma at City, Tonali at Newcastle, Cayode at Brentford, Udoji Vicario at Tottenham, Calafuria, Arsenal. Not to come full circle, but back to Juventus. Juventus have always done well when they've had the core of potential hall of fame Italian players. And I think this is the first time in history where signing those players is almost like out of reach for Juventus at the moment because Spalletti, when he was the national team coach told all of the national team players to go and play in the Premier League. So you can't have this. You know the core of Italians at Juventus at the moment. Federico Gatti, Manuel Locotelli, Andrea Cambiasa, quite underwhelming. But they could not match Man City for salary had they wanted to for Gigio Donaroma when Donnaroma was available in the summer to bring Sandro Tonali back to Italy from Newcastle, a club owned by Saudi Arabia. Pif difficult Calafury starting for Arsenal. You have a team that looks like it's going to be champions of England. Really difficult to bring someone like Califuri back to Italy at this stage.
- [37:12]
E
Maybe when he's 39, but yeah, exactly.
- [37:16]
C
Oh deep. That's a burn, that is. Sorry, I had to, I had to.
- [37:20]
E
You opened the door, James. Can we talk about the title race? Actually, let's actually even talk about Serie A in general because it's been really interesting to watch from afar. Just six points separate league leaders, Napoli at the top and Juventus who are seventh. But I mean there's some been some really interesting upsets as well. Como. What magic is happening at Como right now? I mean, tell us a little bit more about what's going on at Serie A this season.
- [37:42]
C
You know, a lot of people get fixated on whether Serie A is good or not in terms of how talented the teams are. People I think overlook European performance over the last five years and they'll focus on the the echo of the 5 nil into against PSG. But regardless of the talent, I would say what do you want from a league? You want multiple teams to believe they can win the league in any given year. And CDR has had four different champions in the last six years. Yeah, I think the Bundesliga, the Premier League, Liga would all dream of that. La Liga would too. You know you have some really, really well run clubs now. The best run I would say over the last decade has been Atalanta. Yeah, Atalanta have punched above their weight because of Gasparini, because of how the Picassi family have run the club with Steve Pagliuca. But Como, I would say, are muscling in now on being the best run club in Italy. They've got very wealthy benefactors, you know, sort of Indonesian billionaire brothers. They've got a really smart chief executive who has not only brought in data analytics, but brought in really good shareholders who know about football, one being their coach, CES Fabregas, the other's been Thierry Henry. But also in terms of really engaging the local community and understanding the local community, you know, even as being one of the participants in this proposed game in Australia, Como have been very good at being transparent with their fans. Big statement saying, this is why we think we might have to do this. But if we don't, you know, it's Milan's home game, so, you know, you guys are still going to get your 18 home games a season anyway, so don't worry about it. But, you know, Komo, keep giving people like you and I something to talk about. IO in terms of, like, how far can this team go? They were only promoted last year, but they're growing and growing and growing. They've got some great young players, Nico Paz, for example. But even beyond PAs, they've just recruited really well. So people are sort of, can they get into the Champions League? Can they even push on further than that? Como are definitely evidence of how upwardly mobile you can be in Syria if you have a very clear strategy and nail all your decisions.
- [40:09]
E
Yeah. Just before we go, something you've just said that really got me thinking about the bigger teams, because the teams we've spoken about in terms of disruption at the Atalantas are the Cormos, who've come out of sort of nowhere now, sort of at the epicenter of disruption in Syria. Do a lot of the bigger clubs, in your eyes, have a real issue with tradition versus innovation? Because I don't know if this is an overall conversation about just where Serie A goes moving forward, but Italy's well bedded to its tradition.
- [40:40]
C
It is.
- [40:40]
E
And the bigger clubs, Juve, Milan, they embody that so much.
- [40:45]
C
Yeah. To go on with young coaching, really. I mean, Cesk is a young coach. Christian Kivu or Inter is a. Is a young coach. But you're absolutely right in terms of. I don't think Juventus, even though Juventus have become the second youngest team by average age over the last year in Serie A, it's far harder for them to take the Como and Atalanta approach of saying, okay, we're going to incorporate Data and analytics. We're going to take chances on this unknown young player. If we lose a few games, you know, our ultras are going to be. They're going to have their noses put out, but they're going to be more understanding because of where we come from. You know, we were a team in Como's case that were in the third tier, bankrupt not so long ago. We're now in Serie A. We're grateful to the owners, understand the coach wanting to go in this direction. At Juve Juve, their motto is, winning isn't important, it's the only thing that counts. You know, it doesn't matter how you win, you just got to win. Second place is failure at Juventus. There are no transition years at Juventus. And we saw the same sort of happen with AC Milan last year. Where Milan. Okay, Pioli, thank you. You won us the league, got us to a Champions League semi final. But after five or six years, we want to go in a new direction, different playing style. We're going to some young players from outside of Italy. Itigiani Reinders. Players like that, you know, sometimes when you change direction, it can be volatile. You can have unexpected results. You can finish 8th like AC Milan did last year. Fans protested very vehemently. And what do you have this summer? Massive course correction. You know, that road we were determined to go down? Ah, no, we're not going down there anymore. We're going to get Max Allegri, someone who's already coached the club, someone who's coached Juventus. We one of the older heads in the air and we're going to sign Luka Modric. Whereas I think if Como had a season where they finished bottom half, you know, the chief executive will say, cesk, it's fine, keep doing what you're doing. We're going to keep doing what we're doing. We're wedded to this, we're committed to it. There are fewer headwinds buffeting you in, in different directions. So, yeah, I think in that respect, Como and Atalanta are able to be more agile, more upwardly mobile, because they are. They do not have the baggage, the winning traditions that insist certain clubs, big clubs, do things a certain way.
- [43:14]
E
All right, James, I could sit here and listen to you all day. Thank you so much for joining us. And also, before we go, make sure you head over to the Athletic FC tactics podcast where they're discussing Liverpool's problems and how Arna Slot can fix them after their sixth defeat in seven games. And also Matt Davis, Adams will be with you. Tomorrow here for the preview. We'll catch you soon.
- [43:36]
F
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabre, and Jay Beale. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and Adie Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company Production.
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Wow.
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E
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So what are we having for lunch?
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C
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