Can Liverpool keep their heads ahead of pivotal period?

Summary

The Athletic FC Podcast: Can Liverpool Keep Their Heads Ahead of Pivotal Period?

Host: I.O. Akimwalere
Guests: Andy Jones (Liverpool Writer), Stu James (Football Analyst), James McNicholas (Arsenal Writer)
Release Date: February 13, 2025

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Introduction

On this episode of The Athletic FC Podcast, host I.O. Akimwalere delves into the intense Merseyside Derby between Liverpool and Everton, exploring its implications for Liverpool's Premier League title race and Arsenal's challenging title hopes amid a spate of injuries.

Everton vs. Liverpool Merseyside Derby

Match Overview: The podcast kicks off with a vivid recount of the final Merseyside Derby at Goodison Park. Everton secured a dramatic 2-2 draw against Liverpool, with Everton's captain James Tarkovsky scoring a crucial equalizer in the 98th minute.

Key Moments and Incidents:

• Tarkovsky’s Equalizer: "A thunderous Everton equalizer," remarks I.O. Akimwalere at [02:34], highlighting the last-minute goal that salvaged the draw for Everton.
• Chaos at Goodison Park: Stu James describes the match as "exactly what you want from a derby" ([04:39]), emphasizing the passion and intensity. The game was marked by a mass brawl, red cards, and a frenzied atmosphere, especially towards the end when Arne Slot, Liverpool's manager, received a red card ([03:47]).
• Player Performances: Mackenzie's pivotal contribution, with Tarkovsky's commendable performance leading to the equalizer ([02:54]).

Atmosphere and Fan Reactions: The atmosphere at Goodison Park was electric, with fans celebrating passionately. Stu James reminisces about the nostalgic feel, comparing it to derby matches from 30 years ago ([06:02]).

Implications for Liverpool’s Title Challenge

Current Standings:
Despite the draw, Liverpool remains seven points clear at the top of the Premier League. However, the near miss at Goodison Park raises questions about their consistency and ability to maintain momentum.

Injury Management Under Arne Slot: Andy Jones discusses Liverpool’s improved injury management since Arne Slot took over:

• Training and Wellness: "Wellness checks, body wake-up activities such as yoga and hydrotherapy" ([27:44]).
• Player Availability: With only Joe Gomez currently injured, Liverpool boasts remarkable squad availability compared to other top clubs ([21:15]).
• Strategic Rotation: Slot’s ability to rotate players effectively has kept the squad fresh and competitive ([27:44]).

Arsenal’s Title Hopes and Injury Problems

Kai Havertz's Season-Ending Injury: James McNicholas provides an in-depth analysis of Arsenal’s dire situation following Kai Havertz’s torn hamstring, which will sideline him for the remainder of the season ([17:41]).

Impact on the Squad:

• Frontline Challenges: Arsenal now has limited options in attack with key forwards like Raheem Sterling, Leandro Trossard, and Ethan Ranieri facing form and fitness issues ([19:02]).
• Strategic Setbacks: The loss of Havertz undermines Michael Arteta’s plans, as Arsenal struggles to find the right balance and depth in their attacking lineup ([20:34]).

Sporting Director Changes: The departure of Edu and the interim appointment of Jason Ato raises concerns about Arsenal’s recruitment strategy and long-term planning ([23:26]).

Liverpool’s Fixture Congestion and Title Race

Upcoming Fixtures: Liverpool faces a grueling schedule with five Premier League games in 15 days, including tough matches against Aston Villa, Manchester City, and Newcastle United ([30:29]).

Impact on Title Race: Stu James emphasizes Liverpool’s ability to remain focused despite fixture congestion: "They’ve found ways to bounce back every single time" ([32:32]). The consistency in selection, with key players like Van Dijk and Salah leading the charge, positions Liverpool favorably to navigate this challenging run.

Individual Player Highlights

Mohamed Salah’s Stellar Season: Salah continues to be a beacon for Liverpool, boasting 22 goals and 14 assists this season. Andy Jones lauds Salah as "the Premier League player of the season without a shadow of doubt" ([10:11]), noting his record-breaking performances and invaluable contribution to Liverpool's offense ([11:02]).

Ryan Gravenbergh’s Improvement: Under Slot’s management, players like Ryan Gravenbergh have shown significant improvement, adding depth and resilience to Liverpool’s squad ([27:18]).

Psychological Aspects and Team Morale

The episode explores how emotional highs and lows, such as the late draw against Everton, can serve as motivation rather than derailment for Liverpool. Andy Jones and Stu James discuss the potential for these moments to "create a siege mentality," driving the team to focus on upcoming challenges and maintain their title pursuit ([33:43]).

Conclusion and Future Outlook

As the podcast wraps up, the hosts reflect on the resilience of Liverpool under Slot and the precarious situation Arsenal finds itself in due to injuries. The upcoming fixtures will be crucial in determining whether Liverpool can sustain their title challenge and if Arsenal can recover from their current setbacks.

Notable Quotes:

• Stu James on the derby: "It was exactly what you want from a derby... It had everything that had the passion." ([04:39])
• Andy Jones on Salah: "He is the Premier League player of the season without a shadow of doubt in my eyes." ([10:11])
• Stu James on Liverpool’s fixture congestion: "This is a Liverpool team that's fully capable of picking up... seven points, maybe even nine." ([30:55])

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Closing Remarks: The podcast concludes with a teaser for the next episode, which will feature Adam Laventhal discussing the upcoming Tottenham versus Manchester United clash.

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Listeners interested in more in-depth football analysis and exclusive interviews should tune into The Athletic FC Podcast available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and other major platforms.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host]

The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

[I.O. Akamolere]

Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, IO Akimwaleri Goodison Park's final Merseyside Derby delivered Tarkovsky What a finish to the last ever Derby equivalent. A thunderous Everton equalizer.

[Fan 1]

Wow.

[I.O. Akamolere]

Liverpool dropped two points against Everton at the death. So despite the draw taking Arne Slot's side seven points clear at the top of the Premier League. Could the draw at Goodison disrupt their title charge? All right here with us today we have our Liverpool writer Andy Jones as well as Stu James. Now before we hear from them, let's hear from Paddy Boylan, our Everton writer who was at Goodison park for that explosive ending to the final Goodison Merseyside der.

[Fan 2]

Where to even start with that one?

[I.O. Akamolere]

Well, let's be fair, it was mayhem all game.

[Fan 2]

Certainly it was a fittingly chaotic way for Goodison to bow out of Merseyside Derbies.

[Fan 1]

The passion within this stadium right now is it's a fever pitch. Absolute fever pitch.

[Fan 2]

Crucially for Everton. The big thing for Everton fans is that they did not lose this final match at Goodison on this milestone evening. They've got James Tarkovsky, the center back and captain on the night, to thank for that. A 98th minute equalizer for him. Thundered in at the Gladys street queuing basically pandemonium.

[I.O. Akamolere]

Tarkovsky. What a finish to the last ever garden. A thunderous Everton equalizer.

[Fan 1]

Wow.

[Fan 2]

A brilliant atmosphere throughout particularly before the game as Everton fans lined the the pavement to welcome the team bus. And then again a full time look.

[I.O. Akamolere]

At the scenes at Gunnison Park.

[Fan 2]

Just about everything going on and at times really hard to know where to look. You had fans celebrating with players, fans holding the corner flag aloft. Players kicking off and engaged in a mass brawl near the Liverpool away end.

[I.O. Akamolere]

Now it's all spilling over down there because Curtis Jones is unhappy with Abdoulaye Nikoray celebrating in front of the Liverpool fans. A bottle has just been thrown in.

[Fan 2]

Section Just madness really.

[I.O. Akamolere]

Honest Slot has just been shown a red card. I think them he's just been shown.

[Fan 2]

A red card but for Everton something to as I say to cling on to. They wouldn't have wanted to lose this final game at Goodison and for a long time in that second half it looked like they would. So salvation right at the end thanks to the thunderous boot of James Tarkovsky.

[I.O. Akamolere]

Yeah Paddy Boyle in there summing up what a lot of us would have felt watching that match yesterday on our TV screens. Andy let's bring you in here. Look we saw four goals, controversial decisions, red cards right at the end there. Action packed to say the least. You know some might say a typical Merseyside derby. David Moyes at the end of the game also said you know the place was at boiling point all night. Can you sum up in words and I know maybe a little bit, little bit bruised what you saw at Goodison park on Wednesday night.

[Fan 3]

Horrible. No. Well I'll take my Liverpool cap off which is a good thing for Michael Oliver I think it's fair to say and from a neutral perspective it was exactly what you want from a derby. And sort of if I wasn't a Liverpool fan and I was sitting there watching it you would come away and go that's exactly what you want every Derby game to be like. It had everything that had the passion. It had two teams not playing particularly well but just fighting for everything. Every second ball meant everything, every, every sort of bounce of the ball. You didn't know which way the game was going to turn off it and then you saw sort of the old fashioned stuff of stuff that sort of has gone from derbies. Obviously Curtis Jones who reacts to the Corey's actions and everyone would have given him from a Liverpool perspective would have given a man of the match for that reaction. But yeah it was exactly what you want from a Derby game except for the final kick of the ball from a Liverpool perspective it just did have everything and it was a fitting end I think to me. Sad that I was that good as him. Bar.

[I.O. Akamolere]

Yes Stu, let's bring you in here. Darren Fletcher, the TNT sports commentator I felt summed it up right at the end of the match with quite a lovely stat saying Liverpool and Everton have played 123 times at Goodison Park. 41 wins a piece and it ended in a draw. I felt it was fitting really. They ended in a draw. A draw and a brawl. But you know this is a fixer that has provided us with so much entertainment over the years.

[Fan 1]

Yeah and it was absolutely in keeping with that, wasn't it? Everything about Goodison park is just so special and you see them before the game filming in the changing rooms. How cramped everything is in there. The tunnel. They literally come out literally shoulder to shoulder. Right. And that game was like a throwback. It was like watching football. I remember it 30 years ago like the first. My daughter was. She's. She's a little bit into football. Not mad on it but she came in to watch it with me and, and she said dad, this game's crazy. Why is it like this? And it was just the first five minutes was unbelievably frantic. Lots of fouls and I think obviously the nature of the game suited Everton how it was played like that. I thought Beto did a good job of roughing up van Dijk in Kanarte. Everton played quite direct which we expected them to do. Got off to an electric start and I know Andy and obviously Liverpool fans won't agree with this but it was, it was a fitting finale in many ways for the game to end in that way. 98th minute, an unbelievable strike as fans running on the pitch isn't there. It was like chaos at that moment. It kind of reminded me of I'm going back a long time. Way before you were born Andy. This. Crikey. Graham Sharp scoring an incredible goal at Anfield and I remember Everton fans invading the pitch then. But yeah, probably a fair result actually I feel in a way I think Liverpool were a long way from their best and as I say the, the nature of the game certainly suited how David Moyes would have wanted Everton to play. But yeah, a brilliant occasion and as I say for me watching it I felt like God this was what football was like 30 years ago. Not much free flow in football. Would I want to see that all the time? Absolutely not, no. But it was an incredible. It was an incredible spectac.

[I.O. Akamolere]

Well for sure. And Andy, look, there's a lot of emotion on show that's for sure. But I guess we also can't forget what kind of implications this could have on Liverpool's title challenge or the title race I should say. We'll talk about it more in depth a little later on but you know Virgil van Dijk right at the end of there thought, you know they hopefully should have picked up the three points and they thought they would until Tarkovsky came up with that absolute banger.

[Fan 3]

Yeah, it was a missed opportunity in the end and it feels a little bit similar to, to the draw with Newcastle the 33 where Liverp play well but managed to get themselves into a winning position. Very, very similar in terms of the type of performance that they just matter most. Salah's at the heart of getting Liverpool you know, back into it and then in front and yeah and then to concede at the end when you've, you've got the game one effectively and again it's another center half as well. There's a lot of, A lot of similarities and to it there was an element of fate to Tarkovsky's goal. I mean I covered Bailey for, for a number of years and watched him around the box when it would fall from two yards out and he'd somehow miss and put it on this day it was, it was almost destiny and even the way the ball just sort of. It kept breaking forever in a little bit and it just sort of felt. Well, it felt terrible for us but you know, felt right I guess as a neutral for it to end in that way. But yeah, from a Liverpool perspective ultimately, you know, it shouldn't have too many implications. The manner of it is deflating 100% and if it's a 22 draw that is 22 on 70 minutes and Liverpool just can't quite get a winner or something like that, then you come been feeling very, very different and I think Van Dijk basically said it was. He called it a loss even though it wasn't in his postmatch. So Ultimate Liverpool is still in a really good position. This was the game in an. So there's nothing really lost. You know they've gained the points on Arsenal. You know, they've got a little bit more space but it could have been even better. And that's, that's the frustrating thing a little bit with it is that they were so close to effectively having a lead that might not be, you know, anyone can get close to but it just gives you know, a little glimmer. Of hope to Arsenal that Liverpool aren't going to go on a complete roll until the end of the season.

[I.O. Akamolere]

Yeah I mean the jeopardy is still there. Only just I reckon. But Stu, we have to talk about Mo Salah. I mean come on. 22 goals and 14 assists this season comes up clutch again yesterday. Is this the very best version we've seen of Mo Salah? Let's not forget he's an older Mo Salah as well.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Fan 1]

Amazing. And you know what the weirdest thing is? He was quite quiet last night really and he still has a goal in assist to his game. You know it's. It's amazing. I've watched that goal back a few times now. Last night Liverpool second his goal. What's kind of easily overlooked with that I.O. it's an amazing first touch with his right. So Jones goes to shoot really and it comes off Branthwaite's head comes at Salah so fast and his first touch is just immaculate. It's absolutely perfect. And then he drills it in. But yeah the stats are incredible. They're so good and he's so impressive and I know this is not the here and now, it's for the future. But a little part of me wonders what will Liverpool look like without Salah if he doesn't stay how much of an impact will that have on the team? Because his numbers are just incredible and obviously he broke a record last night. You know it's not the most significant record but it's a record that underlines how incredible he's been this season. So he now holds record for the most goal involvements away from home in a single Premier League season. That record was previously held by Andy Cole. 199442 game season so Cole had more games and obviously that was the end of the season. Here we are now we're in February. There's three months to go. Salah's got another six games yet. So amazing to deliver 23 goals or assists away from home this season. I mean there's a lot of top Premier League players who'd be happy with that right across a season home and away. So yeah his, his impact on this Liverpool team is absolutely huge. I do feel Gakpo stepped up this season as well but I do wonder what it would look like without Salah. I thought be interesting and his thoughts on this. I thought Diaz was quiet last night. I didn't really think it worked with him as the sort of focal point of the attack. I loved watching Diaz in the summer for Colombia at the Cop America but I don't feel as if he's really got into a rhythm of delivering this season, but that hasn't been noticed really so much because obviously of what we're talking about now, Salah just being incredible. He is the Premier League player of the season without a shadow of doubt in my eyes.

[Fan 3]

Yeah, I think the points on Diaz's interest and I think he's having a bit of a tough time at the moment. And while that number nine role worked initially, he gets a couple of goals across the Tottenham and West Ham games just before Christmas and just over Christmas since the turn of the year, it's become less and less effective and you know, slots needed to look to the bench and you know, Jota comes on against Forest, Nunez comes on against Brentford. And it was similar again tonight. And it does feel like Diaz is out of form at the minute and he sort of trying to search for it and it might. Now that slot's got both of his number nine options back. It should be a benefit to be able to move Diaz back to his more natural role and be able to rotate him with Gakpo a little bit more. Have jottered and Nunes there to rotate in the number nine role, which is what he did at the start of the season. I think you were you spot on with Salah. I think it's become quite common this season where he's not necessarily. There are some games where he's involved all the time, but what he's been brilliant at this season, and it's almost an extra bit he's added to his game is that he can be quiet for. For 80 minutes. But in those 10 minutes that he's alive, he. He bags and gets an assist. It's incredible, really. He said something in an interview that he did with with Liverpool earlier in the season about when he spoke to us Wenger, and he said the top players are basically always ready for the next moment, are always alive to the moment. And that's what he's become because Liverpool, for me anyway, Liverpool have sort of set up the structure to get the best out of Muhammad Salah. And I think that's why his output has been so high, because everything sort of shaped around making sure that he's in the best position and that's even off the ball is that he doesn't always track in the way, you know, the. The left winger would do. You know, Szobuslay or whoever's playing that number 10 role on the right does a lot of work for him. That's not to say he's lazy but it keeps him hired up the pitch so that when Liverpool get the ball and turn over the ball and he is, he's up the pitch in an advanced areas and ultimately then he's got to finish them off as well. And it's not an easy assist that he's providing all the time. There's some excellent balls in. I mean the ball last night was excellent as well because there's a great header but you know, you've got to find, you've got to pick him out. So yeah, it' form has just continued all the way through the season and it's because I think the setup and the shape is benefiting him, but also that he's able to now be quiet in games but then pop up when you need them most.

[I.O. Akamolere]

Okay, well, next we'll take a closer look at the race for the title.

[Podcast Announcer]

You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with I.O. accamulere.

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[Fan 3]

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[I.O. Akamolere]

Joining us now to discuss the wider picture of the Premier League title race, we have our Arsenal writer James McNicholas with us now. James, we had Adrian Clark on a Wednesday and he was talking about how he was hoping that Everton could just derail Liverpool because obviously he had his Arsenal hat on. What did you make of that Box office, Merseyside Derby?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, it's funny, you know, I'm a supporter as well and. And you make all these little bargains with yourself about, well, if, you know, if Liverpool do this or if Liverpool do that. And in my head for a few weeks I've been saying, well, if they, if they win at Goodison, I'm ready to put my dreams away in a draw. And obviously James Tarkovsky's kept them alive by, by the thinnest of lines really. I mean, I do think as we'll go on to discuss Arsenal in a difficult way at the minute and Liverpool super strong favorites, but Premier League's the Premier League, anything can happen. And I think as long as there's that mathematical chance, I don't think Michael Arteta and Arsenal will allow their concentration to waver. There's been a lot of talk about, you know, could they prioritize the Champions League. I don't think that will happen. I think as long as they feel there's a, even a small percentage opportunity to overhaul Liverpool, they'll keep pushing.

[I.O. Akamolere]

Yeah, for sure. Well, let's talk about Arsenal because it wasn't all good news for Arsenal. On Wednesday you reported alongside David Ornstein that Kai Havertz will miss the rest of the season after tearing his hamstring in Dubai. Which also just leaves Arsenal with only a few forwards left in the squad at this moment in time. James, I mean this is massive for a team that's hoping to try and take Liverpool all the way to the end.

[Podcast Host]

It's a huge blow. There's no doubt about it. It's the fourth, I think I'm right in saying. Hamstring injury that Arsenal have suffered in their attack since the end of December. Picayo Saka with a long term injury, he's undergone surgery on his hamstring. They lost Ethan Renieri for a few weeks. Gabriel Martinelli expected to miss at least a month. And then that compounded by this blow with Kai Havertz who will miss the rest of the season. A torn hamstring. A terrible, terrible blow for Arsenal who effectively had placed a gamble on Havertz's fitness in the January transfer window. You know, they didn't find the player that they were looking for at the right price. They stuck with what they had and so much of that was loaded onto Kai Havertz. Michael Arteta even spoke a week or so ago about him being a genetic powerhouse, about his resistance to injury, his durability. I mean the dramatic irony was just kind of of ramping up as he spoke. And they go away for this warm weather training camp in Dubai hoping for a bit of rest and respite. They come back without their center forward. It is, it's a gamble that's really backfired for them and far sooner than anybody could have imagined.

[I.O. Akamolere]

Yeah, Stu, let me bring you in on this one because you've got Raheem Sterling, you've got Leandro Trossard and you've got Ethan Ranieri, a young kid who's still trying to find his feet in first team football. I mean what does this really say for Arsenal's title hopes from your perspective?

[Fan 1]

Yeah, I mean you name those three players there and beyond that there's not an awful lot really you then looking at the under 21 players. So there's a huge weight on the shoulders of those three and James will know better than me but in my mind none of those three would be starting ordinary. Ordinarily I know Trossard has become a player that Arteta's trusted sometimes in big games, but it's a nightmare situation and I think if we had a role reversal here, if this was say Liverpool with a seven point lead and they had this injury crisis, you'd be thinking, oh, maybe Arsenal can reel them in now, put some pressure on with it being the opposite. I'm sorry to sound defeatist, I find it really, really hard to see how Arsenal can claw this lead back now. And of course they've got to try and it would be really interesting with, with the run of games that Liverpool have got coming up after Wolves, I think they've got three games then that really will shape, define their season in terms of the Premier League. But for Arsenal now, so, so difficult. Ethan on air to me is an exceptional talent, a brilliant player, but can you ask him to go and start again and again and again now? Well, I guess you almost have to in a way. And I think Havertz's contribution's interesting. He's, I still sense he's a player that divides opinion a bit among, among football fans. But you know, when I look at his numbers this season, 15 goals, five assists, change, you know, he's made a big contribution to that team and then there's the wider contribution too in terms of how he plays, how he fits Arteta's game plan. So, you know, the loss of Havertz on top of Saka Martinelli. Jesus. It's almost inconceivable for me that you can mount a title challenge in those circumstances.

[Podcast Host]

Havertz is maybe the most debated player at Arsenal just because there's always this question of do they need a more prolific goal scorer more, I don't know, conventional number nine. But you're absolutely right. In a season where the productivity of maybe people like Gabriel Martinelli or Martin Odegaard has not been at the level that's expected, his numbers are good. He has produced consistently for. So there's no getting away from it. It's a huge, huge blow.

[I.O. Akamolere]

Yeah, Andy, you know, Liverpool are no strangers to injury crisis. You know, you talk about last season, talk about several of the seasons, you know, having to sort of stitch together a team and sort of start seeing your. Your title hopes sort of dwindle away. It's not a good feeling, is it, when that happens?

[Fan 3]

No, it's horrible. The main one obviously was the, the centre back crisis of whether they went into the season with three centre backs and. Or senior center backs after selling Lovren and. And all three of them got injured and you know, they were playing midfielders there who then got injured and then ended up with, well, panic. Bought a little bit in January just to get bodies in and you know, didn't really use them as in Kabak was used, Ben Davies wasn't and then ended up with Nat Phillips and Rhys Williams. And then obviously last season, you rewind to this time last season and Liverpool's injury crisis was. Was incredible really in terms of across the pitch and Jota was out, Nunes was out. So I was like Alexander Arnold. The list went on. Alisson in goal as well and you saw it in the team that ended up winning the Carabao Cup. And when you have those injuries, it doesn't necessarily just impact the players who were injured. It also impacts the players who were then overworked and overloaded. And even when you get those players back, there's then trying to find the form and the rhythm at a crucial stage of the season, which is what Liverpool found last season. They got the senior players back but they didn't perform in the way that they were pre injury. And ultimately then you fast forward to this season and Liverpool are sitting in a really good injury position. And I wrote a piece on the Athletic and prefaced it with I really hope this doesn't jinx Liverpool, but currently I think Joe Gomez is the only senior player who's injured at the moment, which is pretty incredible, really, when you think of the schedule that the top clubs especially have any injuries which have hit pretty much every other club this season. Liverpool have certainly had patches of injuries. They missed Simakash Bradley and Konate at the same time. So defensively do a little bit stretched during December, but to be at this point of the season, you know, going into the business end and only having one player who's not guaranteed starters every week is. Is really, really impressive and it's. It's a nice feeling to have after recent years. But I can have plenty of sympathy, even though there's a part of me which is not too sad that Arsenal have got these injury problems. But I can understand the sympathy. I have sympathy with Arsenal fans because I know exactly what they're feeling at the moment of every sing, there seems to be something else which pops up and. And just keeps sort of gut punching you.

[I.O. Akamolere]

Yeah, that feels like a sympathy with a smaller Sandy. I can see you, mate. Don't you worry. James, before you go, I just wonder if this shines a little light on Jason Ato, who took over Edu, because I guess this is what he's been brought in to do. Bring in the right transfers at the right time. We know that Arsenal were most, most likely to conduct business in the summer, but there will be fans going, why do you get it done? This is exactly what we need and this is why you're in your job.

[Fan 1]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

I think inevitably people are going to look at Edu's departure from the club in November. It was undoubtedly a loss. You know, he had a really good working relationship with Michel Arteta with the board, and Arsenal had done some really good recruitment in recent years. I still think under difficult market conditions, I'm not convinced Edu would have got a better deal done in January. And if I think back to the summer, what did Arsenal do in the final week of the window there? They loaned Neto from Bournemouth, they loaned Sterling from Chelsea. I'm not sure you could call either of those deals successes necessarily. As for the sporting director role moving forward, Arsenal in the middle of a recruitment process. Jason Ato, who is the interim, is expected to be a candidate within that, but they will interview external candidates as well. I do think this is genuinely a really interesting area and a really difficult topic because the sporting director's job really is to have that eye on the mid and long term as well, as the short term. And if Arsenal strategically really feel that they were best served and they can't ever admit this publicly, but perhaps even they thought this Premier League title might be beyond them already, if they really feel they were best served by keeping their powder dry, then I guess that's the sort of difficult decision you actually want your sporting director to make. So as frustrated as fans may be outside the club, the lack of activity, it's much more important how the board at Arsenal, the managing director and Mikhail Arteta himself perceive that decision, because they may know what's coming down the line and feel this is the correct course of action. But it's really something we can only judge later and we're going to have to see how this plays out. So far, you have to admit it's not played out particularly well.

[Fan 1]

James, had Arsenal signed Ollie Watkins, how would that have been perceived by the fans? Was he seen as the solution?

[Podcast Host]

I think that there was a split actually among the Arsenal fans because I think things like age curve and resale value are like part of football fan vernacular now. It's a consideration in a way that maybe it wasn't a certain time ago. I think people find an unknown often has a more sort of exotic quality to it, bringing in somebody from abroad, be that a Benjamin Sesco, whoever it might be, they have that kind of potential of ah, they could become an Erling Harland or the, they could become the next big thing. I think Watkins, he is a real known quantity and I think there was kind of good and bad to that in the eyes of Arsenal fans. Certainly now Arsenal fans would snap your hand off. Raleigh Watkins and I think Mikel Arteta, from everything we understand, that is how he felt too, because as manager, you know, his interest is winning now, is lifting trophies this season and next season. And I think he believed very firmly that Ollie Watkins is someone who could help him do that. And for that reason, I don't think Arsenal's interest in Ollie Watkins could be described as over. You know, I think even though there'll be other options in the market and maybe, maybe options that make more economic sense or represent better long term investments, it wouldn't surprise me if Arteta is still banging a drum for Ollie Watkins because he knows what he's getting and you look at the signings he's made. Declan Rice, Leandro Trossard, Ben White, he loves Premier League, proven experience can come in and hit the ground running. And so for that reason I wouldn't discount Watkins and Arsenal coming back around again in Some form in the summer.

[I.O. Akamolere]

Nice one James. Thanks for your time. Appreciate you joining us as usual.

[Podcast Host]

Cheers guys.

[I.O. Akamolere]

Yeah Andy, we've just heard from James about how Havertz's injury could derail Arsenal's title hopes. But it's something you've looked at as well especially around Liverpool last week, you know. So as mentioned under Jurgen Klopp Liverpool were no strangers to an injury crisis. But what has changed for you under Arne Slot?

[Fan 3]

There's a number of reasons. One of the reasons Liverpool appointed Slot was the sort of injury record that he'd had at previous clubs, Feyenoord in particular. I think it was sort of a 90% availability race that he'd had among the squad and crucial to that was a guy called Reuben Peters who he brought to Liverpool. He's lead physical performance coach and, and he plays a big role in sort of periodization which is basically mapping out training sessions and workloads and individual workloads and individual timetables for players. And there's a couple of slight differences I think in terms of Liverpool's playstyle in general. I think it is more controlled certainly at times during games under Slot than it was under Klopp and there's no right or wrong way about that. But if you are playing less intense football usually will lead to less injuries but also the training is a bit longer but it's less intense. So it's, it's all sort of just managing those things and there's been little things that have been introduced like wellness checks, body wake up activities such as yoga and hydrotherapy and there's more individual time in the gyms and stuff like that. So it's, it's all just sort of, you know, there's no right or wrong and it's not as you know suggest that Liverpool were doing things wrong before slots arrived. But you know evidently the way Slot has got a proven method I guess from, from his time are Feyenoord of how he believes and how he feels players can be managed in his system and you know as you say there has been some injuries and some, some problems but to be as I said before, to be at this stage of the season and to have a relatively clean bill of health is pretty impressive when, when you look across the Premier League and it's all pointing in the right directions that hopefully this will continue and it's not a case of place rating down in you know, mid March, April and you never know with injuries do you? A crisis can hit you at any point and. But what, what Slot's been able to do with the availability of players is he has been able to rotate and, and sort of having those two players for each position allow them to rotate and sort of bring players off during games without you know, weakening the side too much. And even that's, that's even with Champions League football. Whereas Klopp had Europa League football last season was able to, to change more of the squad. And in the piece it shows the number of first team players who've. You sort of played more minutes than they had at this point last season. So yeah it's really impressive what they've done so far. Hopefully it continues. But the fixture, the quadrant fixture list that they've got, you know, is going to test them because it's a lot of big games and a lot of slots. Not going to want to make too many changes to that starting 11. So there's going to be a lot asked of, of these players over the next week and a half or so. So it's, it's going to be interesting to see where they are at the end of this, this little run and then we'll be assessing again and see if that piece I wrote was a jinx or not.

[I.O. Akamolere]

Well yeah, do you know what? You actually read my mind because I want to go into that next. Let's check out Liverpool's fixtures list and also see how that could affect their title push this season.

[Podcast Announcer]

You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akamolere. This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO AkaMalere.

[I.O. Akamolere]

Wednesday's Merseyside derby kicked off a run of five Premier League games in the space of 15 days for Liverpool. Stu, this is massive, isn't it? Especially as we're talking injuries and how Liverpool are going to do for the rest of the season.

[Fan 1]

Yeah, it's a bizarre schedule, isn't it? Because it's this real rush of Premier League games and then very little happening in March on the Premier League front. And tough Premier League games too I think. Not being unkind to wolves, but it feels like wolves at home is probably a good game for Liverpool to have on the back of the Plymouth result. And I know that was with effectively a second string but they certainly wouldn't have wanted to go out the FA Cup. And then all the frustration around the Everton game, as Andy said earlier, draw isn't a bad result at all but it feels like it in the context of the game. The fact that you're winning 97th minute and then you concede in that fashion. So. And then we've got the red cards and everything else. So all that needs to get out the system now. And, and it's interesting, right because I think I'm right in saying Arsenal played before against Leicester. So the gap could be down to four points on Sunday. How do Liverpool respond to that? The Wolves game for me feels close to a formality if I'm honest. I think the next three then are really interesting now. You know, how do they. Villa away man. City away Newcastle at home. That's three really, really tough games for Liverpool. But everything we've seen from them so far this season, they've been incredibly consistent. So you know, this is a Liverpool team that's fully capable of picking up, you know, from those latter three games, seven points, maybe even nine. I think they're that good. I think the, the consistency in selection has obviously helped them this season. Van Dijk always there. Salao was there. Ryan Gravenberg's become really, really important player for them this season. So I expect them to this period and just kick on. I do not see that Everton result or the emotion around it or the frustration derailing Liverpool. I think if anything it will motivate them even more.

[Fan 3]

You know, it can go one or two ways this type of game can't. The emotion can deflate you and you know you can rock up on Sunday against Wolves and it all just feel a bit feeling sorry for yourself. And it's two sort of body blows in a row. We're going out in the FA cup and then. And no one really playing very well in that game. And then the result going the way it goes against Everton after again not, not particularly playing well. So there's. You can be a little bit deflating but there's also that you hope that it's the opposite which is that it spares them on and lights another little fire under them which but they don't really need because they've sort of answered every single sort of setback or you know, they've responded to every setback really well this season. You know, whether that's been a red card against Fulham and even in game, you know, to get a point despite being, you know, losing one nil or you know, the Forest result really early in the season. They've found ways to bounce back every single time and, and that's what gives you confidence. But those fixtures, okay, you've got to beat Wolves ultimately. But then I think the Everton draw, what it does is you looked at this block of fixtures and go can Liverpool get 13 points out of 15? They've already dropped two points so now it's, there's a tiny little bit of pressure but ultimately they've just got to keep playing the way they're playing and they have all season and they should find their way to more positive results because that's what's happened so far.

[I.O. Akamolere]

Yeah Stu, you talk about emotion being a good thing and Andy talks about fire in their belly. Can this be used sort of psychologically to create sort of a siege mentality just to keep in that state to keep you winning and just focus on the next job at hand?

[Fan 1]

Yeah, absolutely. Because I think Liverpool know that people will look at them now and it's hard to talk about. It is like a used a phrase or use the word a blip when actually the team that played at Plymouth bears little resemblance to the strongest 11 and you know they drew away Everton, you know a local derby again it's not a bad result but yeah I'm sure they'll want to show that response now because they'll feel aggrieved that they conceded late. They're clearly feel agreed with Michael Oliver's performance in the game as Andy does and all of that will feed into what you're saying. Yeah, yeah there will be that you know sort of siege mentality and especially if Arsenal get that result on Saturday and you know you, you don't want to be people looking at you thinking have they got the nerve? Can they hold it together? Are Liverpool capable of seeing this through? I think you know all those kind of questions they have the personalities in that team, not just the players but the personalities, the leaders, the charact drive that team on. You know in, in van Dijk is right at the heart of that and so Salah as well for me. So yeah I, I expect Liverpool to respond really positively to what's obviously been a frustrating week.

[Fan 3]

It's the funny side of it in that obviously as Steve says that you know the gap could only be four points and but equally by the time that Arsenal will then play next in the league it could be 10 if Liverpool do the business against Wolves and Aston Villa. So it's, it's that weird flip flop of how's it going to look and I mean mean for example at Brentford, you know in January when Liverpool score late and Arsenal can you know give up a two goal lead and what could have been a very, very different afternoon certainly looks different and there's going to be, I think that is going to be little twists and turns still in it and maybe the Liverpool wobble a little bit. And it feels like Liverpool may have had that wobble in January when they weren't really playing very well and he had a couple of, you know, disappointing results. You know, Manchester United to not win in that Forest game. Obviously they lost the. The cup semi final first like against Tottenham as well. You wonder if that's the blip and they come out of that and it looked like they had and you know, very close to. To securing three points. But it's that psychology as you mentioned. It's. It's looking at it one way, which is the negative or pessimistic way or looking at the optimistic way of that we've all gone with. We've been the next two with 10 points ahead and all the pressure is then on Arsenal to. To hit back. So it's. It's that top detail everywhere, isn't it, that it's going to continue until it doesn't. That math. It's all impossible.

[Fan 1]

One thing that interests me, Andy and I don't want to take anything away from slots. I think he's done brilliantly. He's been fantastic. And Liverpool look a different team in terms of how they play. And I also look at some of the individuals that he's. In my mind, I think that's a really good barometer of how good a manager is that he's improved. I feel like Gatpo's got better. You've talked about how they use Salah. Almost sounds like he's almost sort of cheating in a way that he doesn't have to come back and get him in the best position to have the most positive effect on Liverpool team. Ryan Grabenberg to me is been much improved this season. He's been superb. And subostlay too, arguably. But do you ever think there's a. Obviously what none of us could have probably seen is City being in the mess they've been in this season. Do you ever think Klopp looks at this and thinks, ah, sod it, I should have stayed on for another year.

[Fan 3]

I'd say he's probably feeling and thinking why did I have to endure the most incredible Manchester City team season after season? Putting together the types of seasons Klopp put together which would have won the league any other season and didn't. And then the season he leaves is when it all falls apart for Man City. It's. I can imagine he's. He's probably smiling to himself, but he's probably thinking after the season he put in last season where he basically, you know, began to rebuild Liverpool and, and slots taken over and took it to another level if you like. Klopp easily could have, you know, done it himself, I think it's, it's fair to say. And he's probably thinking, oh, only funny, I wasn't that tired. If I'd just gone to bed a little bit earlier then maybe, maybe I could have done one more season and benefited from it. But yeah, no, I could imagine he's, he's probably sitting there going, oh, typical.

[I.O. Akamolere]

Right gents, it's a really good time to end it there, but also actually super impressive that Liverpool are doing what they're doing and they still haven't sorted out the contracts of Van Dijk Seller or Trent Alexander Arnold yet. You know, really, really interesting gents. Thanks so much for your time. Andy, Stu and also James earlier as well. Now before I go, I want to tell you about Connection Sport Edition, a new game for sports fans from the Athletic. It's basically a daily dose of trivia. It's so satisfying and also so addictive. Make sure you get on it. Play [e-mail] connections. We'll be back tomorrow with Adam Laventhal looking ahead to Tottenham versus Manchester United. Thanks for listening.

[Podcast Announcer]

You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroo and Jay Beal. The executive producer was Ailey Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.

[Podcast Host]

The Athletic FC Podcast Network.