Can Maresca survive at Chelsea without Champions League? - The Athletic FC Podcast

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[00:05]
Ayo Akimwila
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David Ornstein
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
[01:37]
Ayo Akimwila
Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimwila. They left it late, but Chelsea grabbed a crucial win in their bid to secure a top five finish. Pedro Neto Brilliant finish. A stunning strike from Pedro Neto, who charges towards the Chelsea fans. Victory at Craven Cottage keeps them in the mix for a return to European football's elite competition next season. But with fan discontent growing, how important is Champions League qualification for Enzo Maresca's Chelsea future? Here with us today we have our Chelsea correspondent Liam Toomey, who was at Craven Cottage as Chelsea eventually got the job done and will be joined later by David Ornstein as well. Right, Liam, Two goals in the final seven minutes to turn it around. Chelsea celebrations tell us about the relief of that win and I guess it probably showed a little bit of resilience in this squad as well, didn't it?
[02:36]
Liam Toomey
Well, I maybe didn't see everything of the wild celebrations as I was frantically tweaking my live piece to run on the final whistle, but it was clear that it was a big one for them. They knew the significance of the fight back, the feeling of it, the importance of trying to make it a bigger moment with the fans. I think you saw that when Neto scored, running towards the dugout but then wheeling away to face the supporters. And then you saw it again when they all went up to them at the final whistle. And you don't always get those scenes at Chelsea, particularly in recent years. I think there's a lot of grumbling from match going fans that players don't always acknowledge them. And there have been times this season when Maresca has made a point of telling players to go over to the fans. They needed no encouragement this time because I think that everyone felt that this could be a big moment in Chelsea's season. Just as losing to Fulham from 1 nil up at Stamford Bridge in December kicked off this miserable run they've been on, there's a feeling that maybe, just maybe this could be the positive change at just the right time as they head into what will be a really challenging run in.
[03:49]
Ayo Akimwila
Yeah, I mean, you look at that table between Newcastle and Aston Villa. Chelsea in the mix there with 57 points. Who takes those Champions League spots? I mean, that for me is the story of the Premier League right now. But what do you make of it, Chelsea's potential to be in the Champions League amidst that crowded space? Manchester City, Nottingham Forest, Aston Villa, Newcastle, all teams on really great form.
[04:12]
Liam Toomey
Well, they've still got one of the harder roads and that's a curse, but also maybe a blessing because as part of that road, they have to play Newcastle, they have to play Nottingham Forest. And yes, those games will be difficult, but they have a chance to directly affect the fortunes of the teams they're competing against. Those games are now huge, you would have to say probably decisive swing games in this top five race. And they really are as close as you can get in the Premier League to finals. And I think Chelsea will approach them as such. Now what they need is the mindset they had in the second half and particularly the final 20 minutes against Fulham, the final 20 minutes against Ipswich when they really upped the intensity. They cannot afford to keep conceding the first goal as they have done in the last three games, because they're giving themselves too much to do. This is not an explosive scoring team right now, given the way that Cole Palmer and Nicholas Jackson are playing. And so they need to really have that intensity from the first whistle. But what we're seeing is the will and the sense of urgency is there, even if it wasn't there right from the start. They know how important this is and they have a chance. It's a difficult run in but they have a chance. And the fact that it's top five rather than top four also makes it that bit more achievable.
[05:38]
Ayo Akimwila
Yeah, for sure. Everton at home, Liverpool at home, Newcastle away, Manchester United at home and Nottingham Forest away. I mean, I don't know if I'm hopeful, but that is a running and a half. But let's go to Enzo Maresca, really, and get a sense of, you know, is that much pressure on his shoulders for this team to qualify for the Champions League. You know, in a recent press conference, he was talking about how he thought, regardless of where they end up, he thinks this has been a good season for Chelsea.
[06:05]
Liam Toomey
Yeah. And he said it again after the Fulham game.
[06:08]
David Ornstein
Chelsea, the last two years never been in Champions League spot. And this season, we spent all season there.
[06:14]
Liam Toomey
So today, win doesn't change my view. It's already a good season and can.
[06:18]
David Ornstein
Become very good if we finish Champions League spot. No doubt.
[06:22]
Liam Toomey
Now, that is not going to endear him to the Chelsea fans that he's already alienated. But my interpretation of that was that maybe he was talking more to his players than to his fans. I think we don't necessarily account for that possibility enough when we're talking about what coaches say in press conferences, that, yes, strictly speaking, they're talking to us as journalists and to fans through what we report and through the footage, but they're also talking to their players. I've got the sense watching Chelsea in recent weeks that this is a pretty young team that is really feeling the pressure of this moment, of the expectation that everyone at the club feels to get back into the Champions League. And maybe that was an attempt from Maresca to try and lift the pressure a bit. It obviously won't play well with supporters, but that, honestly, that might not be his top priority right now. It might be to try and free up some of these players. And that combined with the feeling of actually winning a game in adversity against Fulham, could be enough to spur them on to the higher levels that they will absolutely need. They have to play a lot better than they have done for almost all of 2025. Honestly, if they want to get the number of points they will need to qualify for the Champions League.
[07:42]
Ayo Akimwila
What was the mood with the away fans at the end at Craven Cottage? Because after a wobies strike, I would have thought there was a feeling there that what happened previously could happen again. Right. This is, you know, a rivalry that often sees Chelsea. You know, were the fans happy that their team got it over the line? Was it more Relief.
[08:01]
Liam Toomey
It was a journey IO and as a reporter, in moments like this, when you go to a game, you are more keyed into listening to what the fans are singing and the way they're reacting to events on the pitch. And I thought, you know, the away fans are always louder. I think that's true of every club. The away Chelsea fans are always louder than away. The base level atmosphere at Stamford Bridge. And I thought for most of the first half, actually either side of the Awobi goal, the energy was largely positive in terms of what they were, what they were singing, even though they weren't really getting much reason to be positive from Chelsea's performance, which was, I think, genuinely awful in the first half. I know Mareska tried to dress it up in the. In his post match comments, saying they were pretty good in the first 20 minutes. I thought Fulham were in control for basically the whole 45 minutes. And Marco Silva did too, unsurprisingly. And it was only at halftime that the frustrations of the Chelsea fans who were there really spilled out. And the unique layout of Craven Cottage really distilled that moment because to get from the dugout to the changing room, you have to walk diagonally across the pitch in front of the stand where the visiting fans are. And so if you're a coach that's not having a good time that is not especially popular, you will probably hear it. And I would be very surprised if Maresca did not hear what the fans were chanting. It was a rising chorus of boos followed by a repetition of a W word that I can't say on this podcast. But it wasn't winner, put it that way.
[09:35]
Ayo Akimwila
Oof. I can read between the lines on that one, mate. But is this a fan base that expects Champions League football?
[09:42]
Liam Toomey
Yeah, I think so. That's Chelsea's modern history. You know, they want to, they, they. That's where they see the club among Europe's elite. And I, you know, that's where the club see themselves as well. But the fan expectation is not what Maresca said publicly. It's not if Chelsea do end up finishing seventh, which is where they started Sunday and where they probably would have finished it if they hadn't have beaten Fulham. Fans will not look upon that as progress, especially because they finished six last season and then decided to start again with a new coach. And I think the general trajectory of this season also makes a difference. You know, last year Chelsea had big problems under Pochettino for the majority of the season. The league position was not good for the majority of the season. But then they finished strongly and it created this impression of, oh, they're finally getting it together. Which is why I think there was such a reaction to Pochettino leaving. It wasn't through any great affection for him. It was because the trajectory of the season created this impression that they were heading in the right direction. This season's been a different story. They were second in December, they were being talked about as fringe title contenders, and Maresca himself said that was premature. But I think the narrative that I've seen that's really taken hold among the supporter base is that the good football in the first three or four months of the season was not Maresca ball. And I think people are going on things that Maresca was saying publicly about we're going too quickly when we're attacking, we need to play more passes, be a bit more slow. And then since they've become a slower, more deliberate possession team, the results have dipped in correlation with that. Now, correlation is not causation, but it is a compelling narrative for many fans. And the fact that the results are declined, the fact that Chelsea had been clinging on to top four, top five for a long time and then finally slipped out just before the Fulham game, I think had a lot of fans fearing that it was just going to get worse and worse under Maresca and that this was only going one way. So that's why that result was so important, because it's a chance. It it gives the table a healthier complexion and that makes everyone involved feel better about themselves to start with. But it also gives reason to hope that maybe the story could still change.
[11:58]
Ayo Akimwila
Okay, well next let's continue to talk about Enzo Maresca because we'll be joined by our football correspondent David Ornstein to delve deeper into Maresca's position at Chelsea as well as their misfir forwards.
[12:11]
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Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn more@discover.com credit card based on the February 2024 Nielsen report Tyreek George on the Turn Chelsea do get their equalizer What a time for Tyreek George to GR his first Premier League goal. Well, joining us now is our football correspondent David Ortein. Guys, look at Fulham. Chelsea had to rely on a 19 year old Tyrek George to get them back into the game. The teenager scoring his first Premier League goal. He's second for Chelsea and what a strike actually that was. But on the flip side, Cole Palmer's still waiting for a goal. It's now 16 games without a goal and Nicholas Jackson hasn't scored in his last 13. Liam right before we get to why Palmer isn't firing and Jackson is struggling, how comforting is it to see a Cobham graduate actually step up in a moment where his team needed him and actually get the goal. Considering what's going on with PSR and having to sell players over the last.
[14:42]
Liam Toomey
Few years, that was a great moment for Tyreek George and it's one that's been coming honestly, he's been building some real momentum in his Chelsea career. Got a big goal in the Conference League away at Legia a couple of weeks ago. Maresca has steadily been trusting him with more minutes, even if he hasn't always sounded super high on Tyreek George in press conferences when he's been asked about him. It's actions over words. I think Chelsea fans are very, very familiar with coaches talking up academy prospects and then just not playing them. So the fact that Tariq George and Joshua Champong as well are actually playing real minutes for Chelsea and contributing in a real way is nice to see. And I think the the Best thing about it is when a young player takes their chance. And you saw when that ball ran free to him on the edge of the Fulham box. There was just a decisiveness in what he decided to do that first time shot into the bottom corner that had been completely lacking from Chelsea's play and to be honest, lacking from a lot of their attacking play, particularly away from home in the last few weeks. Sometimes it takes the fearlessness of youth to kind of change the vibe a little bit. Someone willing to try something, someone feeling a bit more confident than anyone else. And it's clear that Tariq George feels that way. And it was an immediate and drastic energy shift in that game and one that ultimately led to Chelsea winning.
[16:06]
Ayo Akimwila
Yeah, I mean, the name Cole Palmer, you. Someone willing to try something. Those are usually, you know, words that go together. Unfortunately. I don't know what's happening here, Liam, in terms of a stumbling block. He can obviously still play football, but he's not as effective in games as he used to be. And Nicholas Jackson and that link up play somebody we've always spoken about. What do you think's going wrong at this moment in time?
[16:26]
Liam Toomey
Well, I think it's fair to note that both of them have had injuries recently and it's entirely possible that neither of them are 100% right now. But there's definitely an element of them searching for their rhythm. I mean, against Fulham, Jackson was searching for shots, never mind a goal. And Palmer has looked like this for a while now, where he doesn't seem to be interpreting the game with the same sort of crystal clear vision that we've been used to seeing from him for the last 18 months, really. And he doesn't seem to have the same cast iron confidence in every decision that he makes. He seems to be overthinking things. I could have counted on one hand, I think in the first year of his Chelsea career, the amount of times he chose wrong between shoot or pass. And I think that's been happening quite a bit more in the last few weeks. His lack of goals has maybe gotten into his own head. He's not getting penalties, which was something that provided a fairly steady source of goals last season, to maintain that rhythm for him. And I think there is definitely a narrative that's taken hold with many supporters that Maresca's football is stifling Palmer and Jackson. I don't think that's the whole story. Put it that way, it may be a factor, but I think there are many factors. I think the injury is part of it. No athlete is immune to a dip in confidence or form. Palmer is playing with way more pressure this season than he did last year. Last year he was a feel good story. No one expected him to be a superstar from the word go. Opponents didn't expect him to be a superstar from the word go. He's getting fouled much more, he's getting marked much more. Maresca's spoken about this. His whole experience of Premier League football has changed this season and I think that's part of his growth as a player. There's no doubt that we'll see the class again, but right now he's nowhere near his best and it is undeniably hurting Chelsea.
[18:18]
Ayo Akimwila
Okay, David, I don't think we've actually spoken to you about this before in terms of how expensively assembled this squad is, but also, you know, are they getting enough money for or they're getting enough of a performance, I should say, for the money that they've spent on this squad. Should we be expecting more from this Chelsea squad considering how richly it's been assembled?
[18:38]
David Ornstein
Well, the supporters certainly expect more and that's why we're seeing such dissatisfaction. I think you've always got a caveat it with the age profile of the squad. They've signed a hell of a lot of young players and that requires time and patience, which are words that no football fan likes to hear. I think on average they've got the youngest lineup in the Premier League this season. Therefore, form of players like Cole Palmer is likely to fluctuate. And there's a sort of wider conversation here about whether Chelsea should have some more experienced players, some older heads, and a lot has been said and written about that recently and it is a topic of conversation among the fan base. Look, I know Maresca has pointed to this and it hasn't gone down well with, with sections of the the Chelsea fans, but the season is improved compared to last time round. You know, they've spent most of it in the top four area. Some of it they were being talked about as potential title winners, which considering all of the upheaval since the ownership change occurred, is fairly remarkable because Chelsea were being described as a bit of a basket case in, in certain quarters as players and staff and execs were coming and going and, and results were way below, you know, historic expectations. And this season they've largely been, you know, fighting in the area that they want to. There has been a slump that's coincided with absences and Palmer's loss of form. But now some of those players are back and it's judgment time. It started well at Fulham. It needs to continue. These are like cup finals and you know, there's not much margin for error. Chelsea's fixtures are tough, but the rivals for that, Champions League spots don't have easy fixtures. I think Manchester City's running is probably the kindest after they play Aston Villa. But everybody else, Forest and Villa have some tough assignments and it is there for the taking and therefore you kind of will appraise it afterwards. I think if Chelsea get back into the Champions League, it is clear progress, even though there is some unhappiness about the style. This is Enzo Maresca's first season. It's his first sort of job at one of the top clubs. So these are kind of still embryonic days. That young squad is still sort of bedding in. There's some finishing touches that the Chelsea hierarchy will be looking to make in the transfer market and we'll come on to speak about that. And so while I can sort of understand the unease and at times anger and to answer your question, yet much of the public and the media and those who watch Chelsea week in, week out, expect a lot more. I'm sure the hierarchy do as well. But in the context of the nine months which aren't complete yet, I think it is getting better and they'll hope to do a bit more in the upcoming window, whether they're in the Champions League or not to to continue that. I don't think Champions League qualification is make or break for Maresca and his future. Now, Champions League qualification was. Is the club's target and so they'll be deeply disappointed if they don't get there. But you know, he was given a five plus one year contract. If you compare that to Pochettino, it was a much shorter term and that's why Pochettino got assessed after one year. I think that Maresca is going to be assessed after two years, especially with Chelsea competing in the Club World cup and then the new Premier League season starts two weeks later. So it's maybe not been as good as many wanted it to be, but I don't think it's been too bad. And I do think we need to sort of reserve judgment for the outcome in a. In a few weeks time.
[22:42]
Ayo Akimwila
Yeah, Liam, I think it's a really good opportunity to talk about Mareska's style and David makes some really interesting points, especially the length of contract, but he also talks about time and patience. You know, this is a Chelsea fan base that were, how can I say this politely singing not so Nice things to the manager, but also the style in itself. I look at a player like Rhys James being played in the midfield and that that sort of experiment doesn't seem to have worked. Do Chelsea fans have time and patience, do the board have time and patience to see the kind of football that hopefully Maresca is trying to create here at Chelsea?
[23:16]
Liam Toomey
Well, I think we're seeing a disconnect between the way Chelsea's leadership are looking at this and the way that certainly a lot of match going fans look at this. Because if, if you consider this from the perspective of the, the people who go to, to Stamford Bridge and follow Chelsea all over England and Europe when they've been in Europe in the last three years, it's been a lot of pain in the post Abramovich era. There's been a lot of upheaval at times. It hasn't been particularly clear even what the plan is. I think it is clear what the plan is now. It's just whether you agree with it or not. And there is still, I think, a sense of disorientation at the speed of change from the way the club was operated under Abramovic, when patience was not a virtue. That was not part of the club's DNA. It was win today and win tomorrow, and if we have to change to win tomorrow, we'll do it. I think there's disorientation about that and there's also a sense that something has been lost in what Chelsea was. And there isn't a great sense of identification, I think, with this group of players and certainly not with Maresca. And part of the problem is that they had a project with Potter which ended after seven months. They then had what many people thought was even in spite of the contract, he was given maybe a longer term play with Pochettino, which ended after another season. So this is another new start that Chelsea fans are being after, ask to be patient with. And everything that David said about Mareska is true. He's a young coach, he's not fully formed. He's probably not what he will be in three or four years as a coach. But I think part of the problem that Chelsea are experiencing right now is a lot of fans are not invested in that learning curve that Maresca is going on, that this group of players are going on. And so with every setback, these frustrations come bubbling to the surface. And in Chelsea's worst moments this season, that can then cascade to make those setbacks worse. And I think that that's where the toxic atmosphere has kind of played into things. But that's not to say that, you know, fans are to blame in any way for what's happening. They feel how they feel. That's the way football fans have always been. But it is just a part of the current Chelsea dynamic.
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[27:51]
Ayo Akimwila
Right, David having spent over £1 billion since taking charge at Stamford Bridge, it's likely we can expect even more business from Todd Boehly and Clear Lakes Chelsea this summer. You know, last week in the podcast we were talking about Liam delap and Chelsea's interest in Liam delap. Is it right that that's where perhaps they're focusing efforts on as a priority in the summer? Because there are other parts of this field we haven't even spoken about. Keeper is another one we've not talked about.
[28:20]
David Ornstein
Yeah, first thing to say is, and you know, I reported previously and Chelsea fans listening to this will remember it, that the club had identified sort of by the end of the summer window 2024, as when their squad rebuild should be pretty much done and that's when they should be judged. Well, we're now heading into summer 25, I feel on the whole they believe that they've got the basis at the club of what they want to need going forward, whether it be players that are there now, players that are due to come in, players Strasbourg, for example, on loan, such as Andre Santos. And now they want to sort of put finishing touches to it, players who can make an impact and really make them competitive and keep them there into the future. Squad building, I guess, is always an evolution and so you may target a date for when you want to be complete by. And we'd said similar things with Arsenal in the past. You know, they, they had in their head and, you know, three or four transfer windows when it was Edu and Arteta and then they would be competitive again. It has played out, you know, along those lines, but the dates are never quite exact. Striker is Chelsea's top priority, as we understand it. And you mentioned dilap there. He's among the options they're looking at along with, say, Sesco and Ekatike, and there'll be others on the list as well, so we'll see which way that ends up. You know, they've got high hopes for Jackson and this would be adding to the front line a in a position that many people have felt they've needed for a long time. Then they're looking for a wide player. Not for the first time, you know, that they've recruited wingers and they're still looking in that position. So that's why you see names such as Jamie Gittins, Alejandro Garnacho, Nico Williams players. They've had quite well documented interest and that's ongoing. And again, in that position there will be more options. The center of midfield is a bit different because Andre Santos, the plan I think is for him to come in and be part of the squad. He's had a fantastic season at Strasbourg and there'll be a lot of excitement and intrigue on how he'll fare. It didn't go so well at Nottingham Forest, did it, but he has really flourished and that's one to look forward to. And then Dario Esugo will be coming in. There's a pre contract agreement that was signed and he's from Sporting Lisbon. It would be like a, a sort of COVID really for Caicedo, I think in terms of his profile. And then you look towards the back and I could imagine a center back coming in another. It would require exits and that's why you see Chelsea looking at players such as, in no particular order, Dean Hoisen, Mark Gahey, Jared Branthwaite, Jeroel Hatto and again, you know, multiple options for, for that position. It'll be fascinating to see outgoings on that front. And then, yeah, coming to your point about goalkeeper Liam smiling there, look at.
[31:19]
Ayo Akimwila
Liv's as grim in the corner.
[31:21]
David Ornstein
It's not really been satisfactory.
[31:23]
Liam Toomey
I'm just canceling all my holiday for the summer.
[31:26]
David Ornstein
Well, I mean that, that, that shirt could go to one of the existing keepers in terms of if, if Sanchez or Jorgensen can, can prove themselves, you know, it's not been a great time and, and then Petrovic, who's had a really good season at Strasbourg and, and Penders, you know, is said to be the next big thing in goalkeeping and has a really bright future. So are one of the two who are out going to come in? Either of the two that are in going to go out, is there going to be a different keeper signed if all of them are deemed not quite right for that position at this moment, but it's not been good enough, the goalkeeping and that needs to be improved. So on the one hand I've said a couple of cherries on the cake and then in the other I've gone through sort of every position but I think it's sort of bringing in, you know, two or three players of a really high level to almost take Chelsea to a level of real competitiveness and winning, not sort of adding depth. Now they seem to have the depth and therefore it is going to be a busy sum. Obviously, they've got to make the decision on Jadon Sancho and there will be outgoings again that, you know, whatever anybody says about the spending, which has been vast, that they've complied with profitability and sustainability, people will immediately say, oh, the hotel and the women's team, fair points. But. But the outgoings, the. The sales have been really impressive and. And there always seems to be interest in their players and they've got good prices for them. So on that front, I'm sure they'll look to balance the books again. But it would be naive of us to take our eye off Chelsea in this window, which is going to keep the likes of me, Liam, Simon and others on our toes.
[33:04]
Ayo Akimwila
Yeah, Liam, just a quick one, and we haven't mentioned it, but Christopher Nkunku was dropped against Fulham and that was really interesting for me. And we've spoken on this podcast how he just hasn't found that form, whether he's in the desired position or whatnot. Do we know more about what's going on there? Because he played in the Conference League, but then this is such an important game and you're looking at a team that's looking for attacking options. There's one there that's not playing for the team.
[33:30]
Liam Toomey
Yeah. We don't know all the details around why he was left out against Fulham. We do know that Maresca has made these technical decisions before this season with other players, and it's usually been related to training performance, that he just hasn't been happy with what he's seen. I think we can only judge without hearing more on what we've seen from Nkunku on the pitch. And yes, there has been this constant psychodrama about what's his best position or role in this team. I think it's also fair to say that there have been serious questions about his level of engagement and effort in some of these games, and his body language has not always been very good. And so, I mean, it's been pretty widely documented that I think all parties will look to go their separate ways this summer. It hasn't worked for him at Chelsea. There have been lots of reasons for that, plenty of them outside of his control. But I think this season has also been partly in his control, and he hasn't made the most of the opportunities that he's had. So I'm sure he will be one of the many players that Chelsea are looking to sell to get off their wage bill and to raise funds this summer. And I'm sure, he'll be looking for a fresh start, but in the meantime, I think that also magnifies what Tyreek George managed to do off the substitutes bench, because Chelsea have really lacked that alternative to Jackson whenever Jackson isn't scoring, which hasn't been often recently, someone to come on and get a vital goal to change the momentum of a game. And I think it wouldn't surprise me at all if Tyreek George gets a lot more of those opportunities than Nkunku down the final stretch of this season.
[35:09]
Ayo Akimwila
Okay, David, you talk about game changing players and players that can just sort of fit into this jigsaw that's already already been built, but what about the profile of those players? Are we still looking at that under 23 category? I wouldn't say it served them well so far, but seems to be a strategy that Chelsea have followed.
[35:26]
David Ornstein
Yeah, and look, I think it's really important to say that we're not aware of there being rules around signing under 23 players, which has been suggested by some that that's what Chelsea are limiting themselves to. No, I don't think so. I think that they looked for top young players which maybe came with the benefit of being able to put them on reasonable salaries. They've brought the wage bill down significantly from what it was before and spaced them out over long term contracts. Make of that what you will. But you do speak to people around the game who are lauding the quality of many of Chelsea's signings. And it's really a global recruitment effort. But the thing is, we're going to have to wait to see with many of them how it fares. It's also fair to point out that, you know, you can get young players who are experienced. Look at Bukayo Saka at Arsenal, for example. He's played so much football, you regard him as a senior player at such a tender age and Chelsea will know that many of these players will be benefiting from the amount they're playing now, even though it's not gone as well in terms of success as they would have hoped. Right at the beginning of the project, they did bring in, you know, a Raheem Sterling, a Koulibaly. Okay, those didn't work out so well, but I don't think they would limit themselves if the right opportunity arose. And that's why there was interest in somebody like a Virgil Van Dijk prior to him signing his new contract at Liverpool. I've seen some reaction to that being mentioned in a number of reports and people saying, not true, rubbish. No, it was True, there was interest. If he had been available for the reasons that, you know, he would have been a free transfer for a start. So that would have mitigated a higher salary than Chelsea have been handing out of late. Sam Wallace in the Telegraph wrote a really interesting piece about that. Who can they look for around world football that might fit that bill with people like Luka Modric maybe leaving Real Madrid and Kevin De Bruyne, formerly of Chelsea, on his way out of, of Manchester City. Let's see on all of that, I think it's more, you know, they, they're market opportunities and of players that can make a great impact. It's not that, oh, Chelsea need old experienced heads, they need good players and leadership can come in many forms. And if Van Dijk had been doable, it'd be naive not to have looked at that. For everything he represents as it was, he only had eyes on Liverpool.
[37:53]
Ayo Akimwila
Yeah, I mean, Liam, that's an interesting one. Modric De Bruyne at Chelsea and I guess you know, the De Bruyne link, Maresca is a disciple of Guardiola. Could work. There's no contract on the table.
[38:05]
Liam Toomey
Yeah, it could work. And Modric would be proof that Chelsea always get their man. Even if it takes after all these years, even if it takes 10, 15 years to do. Happens eventually and it's like 39. It would in one sense be a deviation from what they've largely done under this ownership. But we also saw that this ownership retained Thiago Silva and continue to give him prominence because he was a high caliber veteran with real stature, real respect in the dressing room and there was a feeling that he could be a valuable leader. So I think there's always space for that. I think it's only natural that those conversations would be happening within Chelsea sporting leadership as well as within the fan base, because you can see at times that Chelsea could maybe use a little bit more experience in certain situations. But that said, Ipswich provided some evidence of this. Fulham certainly did. There is a spirit in this team. It started to emerge under Pochettino. I think we're still seeing it under Maresca. They are fighting together for results through setbacks and that wouldn't be happening if there was, you know, zero character, zero personality in the group. Group.
[39:22]
David Ornstein
I think the one player that maybe there's a regret over and it's not the doing of this regime was Antonio Rudiger leaving on a free transfer because he's an absolute warrior and we've seen how well he's done throughout his career. He could have been the sort of heir apparent to Thiago Silva. And I think you can look back on that and say, yeah, he was the one that really could have helped this transition and guided some of the younger players. That the, the way that he's still a top player, but he also leads by example. He's a great influence in the dressing room as well. And look, probably now be linked to all sorts of names. Yeah, I've seen Thomas Muller mentioned as well. No, I don't, don't see that happening at all.
[40:05]
Ayo Akimwila
I can't see that happening.
[40:07]
David Ornstein
So let's keep a limit on it. But I think that it's a reasonable conversation. I also don't think, you know, people will hear this and state, one minute they're doing this youth strategy and now you're talking. I don't think it's quite that binary, black and white. I think it's as a squad evolves, you know, they, they've brought in a lot of really good, talented young players. You know, at times you may need to bring in something a little bit more mature. That that is Okay. I don't necessarily think it, you know, shows a sign of a sporting hierarchy that doesn't know what they're doing. I think it is adapting to the circumstances and the evidence and like, unfortunately, this is going to take quite some time to play out and we all want the answers now. But. But yeah, back to the word I started with earlier, the patience. The dreaded word patience is required.
[41:00]
Ayo Akimwila
Yeah. Chelsea's fans, time and patience, please. Anyway, gents, thanks for your time, Liam, David, and thank you all for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.
[41:10]
David Ornstein
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroo and Jay Beal. The executive producer was Ailey Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
[41:32]
Liam Toomey
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

Summary6 min read

The Athletic FC Podcast Summary
Episode: Can Maresca Survive at Chelsea without Champions League?
Release Date: April 21, 2025

Introduction

In this episode of The Athletic FC Podcast, host Ayo Akinwolere delves into Chelsea's current predicament under Enzo Maresca, focusing on the critical question: Can Maresca survive at Chelsea without securing a Champions League spot? Joining Ayo are Chelsea correspondent Liam Toomey and football correspondent David Ornstein, who provide in-depth insights into the team's performances, strategic decisions, and future prospects.

Chelsea's Crucial Victory at Craven Cottage

The episode kicks off with a discussion about Chelsea's dramatic win at Craven Cottage, which was pivotal in keeping the club in contention for a top-five finish and a return to the Champions League.

Ayo Akinwolere [07:37]: "Season Premiere 24 and 24 Last Chef Standing... but Chelsea grabbed a crucial win in their bid to secure a top five finish."

Liam Toomey [02:36]: "They knew the significance of the fight back, the feeling of it, the importance of trying to make it a bigger moment with the fans."
He highlights Pedro Neto's stunning strike and the team's resilience, noting that such celebrations are rare for Chelsea in recent years.

Champions League Qualification: Importance for Maresca's Future

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the necessity of qualifying for the Champions League and its implications for Maresca's tenure.

Ayo Akinwolere [03:48]: "But what do you make of it, Chelsea's potential to be in the Champions League amidst that crowded space?"

Liam Toomey [04:11]: "They have a chance to directly affect the fortunes of the teams they're competing against. Those games are now huge, you would have to say probably decisive swing games in this top five race."

David Ornstein [06:05]: "It's not going to endear him to the Chelsea fans that he's already alienated... he was talking more to his players than to his fans."

Ornstein suggests that Maresca's public statements may alienate fans, but they might be aimed at easing the pressure on players, fostering a more resilient squad capable of achieving the necessary results.

Key Player Performances and Struggles

The hosts analyze individual player performances, focusing on standout moments and areas of concern.

Pedro Neto’s Impact: Neto's brilliance in securing the win is lauded as a key factor in Chelsea's recent resurgence.

Tyreek George's Emergence:

Ayo Akinwolere [14:41]: "The teenager scoring his first Premier League goal... it's nice to see him stepping up."

Liam Toomey [14:41]: "Sometimes it takes the fearlessness of youth to kind of change the vibe a little bit."
George's goal against Fulham is seen as a turning point, injecting much-needed energy into the team.

Cole Palmer and Nicholas Jackson’s Struggles:

Ayo Akinwolere [16:05]: "Cole Palmer isn't firing and Jackson is struggling..."

Liam Toomey [16:26]: "Palmer is overthinking things... his lack of goals has maybe gotten into his own head."
Both players are grappling with form and confidence issues, exacerbated by recent injuries and increased pressure.

Fan Sentiment and Expectations

The podcast delves into the expectations of Chelsea's fanbase and their impatience with the current direction of the team.

Liam Toomey [09:41]: "That's Chelsea's modern history. They want to, they see themselves among Europe's elite."
Fans are vocal about their desire for Champions League football, feeling that Maresca hasn't delivered the necessary progress.

Ayo Akinwolere [22:42]: "Do Chelsea fans have time and patience, do the board have time and patience to see the kind of football that hopefully Maresca is trying to create here at Chelsea?"

Liam Toomey [22:42]: "There's disorientation about the speed of change from the way the club was operated under Abramovich."
Fans are struggling to adjust to Maresca's approach, craving the immediate success they previously enjoyed.

Transfer Market Strategies and Future Prospects

The hosts discuss Chelsea's transfer strategies, focusing on potential summer targets and the need to balance youth with experience.

Targeting Liam Delap and Other Strikers:

David Ornstein [28:19]: "Striker is Chelsea's top priority... Liam Delap is among the options they're looking at along with Sesco and Ekatike."
Chelsea aims to bolster their attacking options to alleviate the pressure on existing forwards.

Goalkeeping Concerns:

Liam Toomey [31:21]: "The goalkeeping hasn't been satisfactory."
Improving the backline is a priority, with potential signings like Petrovic and Penders under consideration.

Balancing Youth and Experience:

Ayo Akinwolere [35:08]: "What about the profile of those players? Are we still looking at that under 23 category?"

David Ornstein [35:26]: "It's not that Chelsea need old experienced heads, they need good players and leadership can come in many forms."
While Chelsea has focused on young talent, there's an acknowledgment that integrating experienced players could provide the necessary leadership and stability.

Enzo Maresca’s Managerial Style and Challenges

The podcast critically examines Maresca's managerial approach and the challenges he faces in implementing his vision.

Maresca’s Style and Fan Reception:

Liam Toomey [23:15]: "Maresca is a young coach, he's not fully formed... many fans are not invested in that learning curve."
Maresca is seen as still developing his managerial style, with fans impatient for immediate results.

Adaptation and Patience:

David Ornstein [40:06]: "Patience is required."
Both hosts emphasize the need for patience from both the fans and the club's hierarchy, acknowledging that rebuilding a squad takes time.

Conclusion: The Path Forward for Chelsea and Maresca

Wrapping up the discussion, the hosts reflect on Chelsea's current trajectory and what lies ahead.

David Ornstein [38:04]: "If Chelsea get back into the Champions League, it is clear progress, even though there is some unhappiness about the style."
Qualification for the Champions League would be a significant milestone, providing a mandate for Maresca to continue building the team.

Liam Toomey [39:21]: "There's a spirit in this team... They are fighting together for results through setbacks."
Despite the challenges, there's a sense of camaraderie and resilience within the squad that could drive future success.

Final Thoughts:

Ayo Akinwolere [40:59]: "Chelsea's fans, time and patience, please."
The episode concludes with a call for patience, emphasizing that while the journey is fraught with challenges, there is potential for positive change under Maresca's leadership.

Key Quotes

Liam Toomey [02:36]: "They knew the significance of the fight back, the feeling of it, the importance of trying to make it a bigger moment with the fans."
Ayo Akinwolere [03:48]: "But what do you make of it, Chelsea's potential to be in the Champions League amidst that crowded space?"
David Ornstein [06:05]: "It's not going to endear him to the Chelsea fans that he's already alienated."
Liam Toomey [16:26]: "Palmer is overthinking things... his lack of goals has maybe gotten into his own head."
Liam Toomey [23:15]: "There's disorientation about the speed of change from the way the club was operated under Abramovich."
David Ornstein [35:26]: "It's not that Chelsea need old experienced heads, they need good players and leadership can come in many forms."
Ayo Akinwolere [40:59]: "Chelsea's fans, time and patience, please."

Conclusion

This episode of The Athletic FC Podcast provides a comprehensive analysis of Chelsea's current state under Enzo Maresca. While the team shows signs of resilience and potential, particularly through standout performances like Pedro Neto and Tyreek George, underlying issues such as inconsistent form from key players and high fan expectations pose significant challenges. The discussion underscores the importance of strategic transfers and the balance between nurturing young talent and integrating experienced leaders. As Chelsea navigates a competitive Premier League landscape, the episode posits that Maresca's survival may hinge on securing a Champions League spot, though patience from both fans and the club's hierarchy remains crucial for sustained success.

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Transcript88 lines

[00:05]
Ayo Akimwila
24 chefs 24 culinary showdowns for 24 hours straight. Which chef will out cook outpace outlast the competition?
[00:20]
David Ornstein
No chef escapes the clock.
[00:23]
Ayo Akimwila
Season Premiere 24 and 24 Last Chef Standing Sunday, April 27 at 8 see it first on Food Network Stream next day on Max out here, there's no.
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Liam Toomey
One way of doing things, no unwritten rules, and no shortage of adventure. Because out here, the only requirement is having fun. Bank of America invites kids 6 to 18 to golf with us for a limited time. Sign them up for a free one year membership, giving them access to discounted tee times at thousands of courses. Learn more@bankofamerica.com golf with us what would you like the power to do? Bank of America restrictions apply. See BFA.com golf with us for complete details. Copyright 2025 bank of America Corporation. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. You might say all kinds of stuff.
[01:04]
Ayo Akimwila
When things go wrong, but these are the words you really need to remember. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. They've got options to fit your unique insurance needs, meaning you can talk to your agent to choose the coverage you.
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Liam Toomey
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Ayo Akimwila
Things you value most, file a claim right on the State Farm mobile app, and even reach a real person when.
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Liam Toomey
You need to talk to someone.
[01:26]
Ayo Akimwila
Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.
[01:31]
David Ornstein
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
[01:37]
Ayo Akimwila
Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimwila. They left it late, but Chelsea grabbed a crucial win in their bid to secure a top five finish. Pedro Neto Brilliant finish. A stunning strike from Pedro Neto, who charges towards the Chelsea fans. Victory at Craven Cottage keeps them in the mix for a return to European football's elite competition next season. But with fan discontent growing, how important is Champions League qualification for Enzo Maresca's Chelsea future? Here with us today we have our Chelsea correspondent Liam Toomey, who was at Craven Cottage as Chelsea eventually got the job done and will be joined later by David Ornstein as well. Right, Liam, Two goals in the final seven minutes to turn it around. Chelsea celebrations tell us about the relief of that win and I guess it probably showed a little bit of resilience in this squad as well, didn't it?
[02:36]
Liam Toomey
Well, I maybe didn't see everything of the wild celebrations as I was frantically tweaking my live piece to run on the final whistle, but it was clear that it was a big one for them. They knew the significance of the fight back, the feeling of it, the importance of trying to make it a bigger moment with the fans. I think you saw that when Neto scored, running towards the dugout but then wheeling away to face the supporters. And then you saw it again when they all went up to them at the final whistle. And you don't always get those scenes at Chelsea, particularly in recent years. I think there's a lot of grumbling from match going fans that players don't always acknowledge them. And there have been times this season when Maresca has made a point of telling players to go over to the fans. They needed no encouragement this time because I think that everyone felt that this could be a big moment in Chelsea's season. Just as losing to Fulham from 1 nil up at Stamford Bridge in December kicked off this miserable run they've been on, there's a feeling that maybe, just maybe this could be the positive change at just the right time as they head into what will be a really challenging run in.
[03:49]
Ayo Akimwila
Yeah, I mean, you look at that table between Newcastle and Aston Villa. Chelsea in the mix there with 57 points. Who takes those Champions League spots? I mean, that for me is the story of the Premier League right now. But what do you make of it, Chelsea's potential to be in the Champions League amidst that crowded space? Manchester City, Nottingham Forest, Aston Villa, Newcastle, all teams on really great form.
[04:12]
Liam Toomey
Well, they've still got one of the harder roads and that's a curse, but also maybe a blessing because as part of that road, they have to play Newcastle, they have to play Nottingham Forest. And yes, those games will be difficult, but they have a chance to directly affect the fortunes of the teams they're competing against. Those games are now huge, you would have to say probably decisive swing games in this top five race. And they really are as close as you can get in the Premier League to finals. And I think Chelsea will approach them as such. Now what they need is the mindset they had in the second half and particularly the final 20 minutes against Fulham, the final 20 minutes against Ipswich when they really upped the intensity. They cannot afford to keep conceding the first goal as they have done in the last three games, because they're giving themselves too much to do. This is not an explosive scoring team right now, given the way that Cole Palmer and Nicholas Jackson are playing. And so they need to really have that intensity from the first whistle. But what we're seeing is the will and the sense of urgency is there, even if it wasn't there right from the start. They know how important this is and they have a chance. It's a difficult run in but they have a chance. And the fact that it's top five rather than top four also makes it that bit more achievable.
[05:38]
Ayo Akimwila
Yeah, for sure. Everton at home, Liverpool at home, Newcastle away, Manchester United at home and Nottingham Forest away. I mean, I don't know if I'm hopeful, but that is a running and a half. But let's go to Enzo Maresca, really, and get a sense of, you know, is that much pressure on his shoulders for this team to qualify for the Champions League. You know, in a recent press conference, he was talking about how he thought, regardless of where they end up, he thinks this has been a good season for Chelsea.
[06:05]
Liam Toomey
Yeah. And he said it again after the Fulham game.
[06:08]
David Ornstein
Chelsea, the last two years never been in Champions League spot. And this season, we spent all season there.
[06:14]
Liam Toomey
So today, win doesn't change my view. It's already a good season and can.
[06:18]
David Ornstein
Become very good if we finish Champions League spot. No doubt.
[06:22]
Liam Toomey
Now, that is not going to endear him to the Chelsea fans that he's already alienated. But my interpretation of that was that maybe he was talking more to his players than to his fans. I think we don't necessarily account for that possibility enough when we're talking about what coaches say in press conferences, that, yes, strictly speaking, they're talking to us as journalists and to fans through what we report and through the footage, but they're also talking to their players. I've got the sense watching Chelsea in recent weeks that this is a pretty young team that is really feeling the pressure of this moment, of the expectation that everyone at the club feels to get back into the Champions League. And maybe that was an attempt from Maresca to try and lift the pressure a bit. It obviously won't play well with supporters, but that, honestly, that might not be his top priority right now. It might be to try and free up some of these players. And that combined with the feeling of actually winning a game in adversity against Fulham, could be enough to spur them on to the higher levels that they will absolutely need. They have to play a lot better than they have done for almost all of 2025. Honestly, if they want to get the number of points they will need to qualify for the Champions League.
[07:42]
Ayo Akimwila
What was the mood with the away fans at the end at Craven Cottage? Because after a wobies strike, I would have thought there was a feeling there that what happened previously could happen again. Right. This is, you know, a rivalry that often sees Chelsea. You know, were the fans happy that their team got it over the line? Was it more Relief.
[08:01]
Liam Toomey
It was a journey IO and as a reporter, in moments like this, when you go to a game, you are more keyed into listening to what the fans are singing and the way they're reacting to events on the pitch. And I thought, you know, the away fans are always louder. I think that's true of every club. The away Chelsea fans are always louder than away. The base level atmosphere at Stamford Bridge. And I thought for most of the first half, actually either side of the Awobi goal, the energy was largely positive in terms of what they were, what they were singing, even though they weren't really getting much reason to be positive from Chelsea's performance, which was, I think, genuinely awful in the first half. I know Mareska tried to dress it up in the. In his post match comments, saying they were pretty good in the first 20 minutes. I thought Fulham were in control for basically the whole 45 minutes. And Marco Silva did too, unsurprisingly. And it was only at halftime that the frustrations of the Chelsea fans who were there really spilled out. And the unique layout of Craven Cottage really distilled that moment because to get from the dugout to the changing room, you have to walk diagonally across the pitch in front of the stand where the visiting fans are. And so if you're a coach that's not having a good time that is not especially popular, you will probably hear it. And I would be very surprised if Maresca did not hear what the fans were chanting. It was a rising chorus of boos followed by a repetition of a W word that I can't say on this podcast. But it wasn't winner, put it that way.
[09:35]
Ayo Akimwila
Oof. I can read between the lines on that one, mate. But is this a fan base that expects Champions League football?
[09:42]
Liam Toomey
Yeah, I think so. That's Chelsea's modern history. You know, they want to, they, they. That's where they see the club among Europe's elite. And I, you know, that's where the club see themselves as well. But the fan expectation is not what Maresca said publicly. It's not if Chelsea do end up finishing seventh, which is where they started Sunday and where they probably would have finished it if they hadn't have beaten Fulham. Fans will not look upon that as progress, especially because they finished six last season and then decided to start again with a new coach. And I think the general trajectory of this season also makes a difference. You know, last year Chelsea had big problems under Pochettino for the majority of the season. The league position was not good for the majority of the season. But then they finished strongly and it created this impression of, oh, they're finally getting it together. Which is why I think there was such a reaction to Pochettino leaving. It wasn't through any great affection for him. It was because the trajectory of the season created this impression that they were heading in the right direction. This season's been a different story. They were second in December, they were being talked about as fringe title contenders, and Maresca himself said that was premature. But I think the narrative that I've seen that's really taken hold among the supporter base is that the good football in the first three or four months of the season was not Maresca ball. And I think people are going on things that Maresca was saying publicly about we're going too quickly when we're attacking, we need to play more passes, be a bit more slow. And then since they've become a slower, more deliberate possession team, the results have dipped in correlation with that. Now, correlation is not causation, but it is a compelling narrative for many fans. And the fact that the results are declined, the fact that Chelsea had been clinging on to top four, top five for a long time and then finally slipped out just before the Fulham game, I think had a lot of fans fearing that it was just going to get worse and worse under Maresca and that this was only going one way. So that's why that result was so important, because it's a chance. It it gives the table a healthier complexion and that makes everyone involved feel better about themselves to start with. But it also gives reason to hope that maybe the story could still change.
[11:58]
Ayo Akimwila
Okay, well next let's continue to talk about Enzo Maresca because we'll be joined by our football correspondent David Ornstein to delve deeper into Maresca's position at Chelsea as well as their misfir forwards.
[12:11]
David Ornstein
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[13:36]
Ayo Akimwila
Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn more@discover.com credit card based on the February 2024 Nielsen report Tyreek George on the Turn Chelsea do get their equalizer What a time for Tyreek George to GR his first Premier League goal. Well, joining us now is our football correspondent David Ortein. Guys, look at Fulham. Chelsea had to rely on a 19 year old Tyrek George to get them back into the game. The teenager scoring his first Premier League goal. He's second for Chelsea and what a strike actually that was. But on the flip side, Cole Palmer's still waiting for a goal. It's now 16 games without a goal and Nicholas Jackson hasn't scored in his last 13. Liam right before we get to why Palmer isn't firing and Jackson is struggling, how comforting is it to see a Cobham graduate actually step up in a moment where his team needed him and actually get the goal. Considering what's going on with PSR and having to sell players over the last.
[14:42]
Liam Toomey
Few years, that was a great moment for Tyreek George and it's one that's been coming honestly, he's been building some real momentum in his Chelsea career. Got a big goal in the Conference League away at Legia a couple of weeks ago. Maresca has steadily been trusting him with more minutes, even if he hasn't always sounded super high on Tyreek George in press conferences when he's been asked about him. It's actions over words. I think Chelsea fans are very, very familiar with coaches talking up academy prospects and then just not playing them. So the fact that Tariq George and Joshua Champong as well are actually playing real minutes for Chelsea and contributing in a real way is nice to see. And I think the the Best thing about it is when a young player takes their chance. And you saw when that ball ran free to him on the edge of the Fulham box. There was just a decisiveness in what he decided to do that first time shot into the bottom corner that had been completely lacking from Chelsea's play and to be honest, lacking from a lot of their attacking play, particularly away from home in the last few weeks. Sometimes it takes the fearlessness of youth to kind of change the vibe a little bit. Someone willing to try something, someone feeling a bit more confident than anyone else. And it's clear that Tariq George feels that way. And it was an immediate and drastic energy shift in that game and one that ultimately led to Chelsea winning.
[16:06]
Ayo Akimwila
Yeah, I mean, the name Cole Palmer, you. Someone willing to try something. Those are usually, you know, words that go together. Unfortunately. I don't know what's happening here, Liam, in terms of a stumbling block. He can obviously still play football, but he's not as effective in games as he used to be. And Nicholas Jackson and that link up play somebody we've always spoken about. What do you think's going wrong at this moment in time?
[16:26]
Liam Toomey
Well, I think it's fair to note that both of them have had injuries recently and it's entirely possible that neither of them are 100% right now. But there's definitely an element of them searching for their rhythm. I mean, against Fulham, Jackson was searching for shots, never mind a goal. And Palmer has looked like this for a while now, where he doesn't seem to be interpreting the game with the same sort of crystal clear vision that we've been used to seeing from him for the last 18 months, really. And he doesn't seem to have the same cast iron confidence in every decision that he makes. He seems to be overthinking things. I could have counted on one hand, I think in the first year of his Chelsea career, the amount of times he chose wrong between shoot or pass. And I think that's been happening quite a bit more in the last few weeks. His lack of goals has maybe gotten into his own head. He's not getting penalties, which was something that provided a fairly steady source of goals last season, to maintain that rhythm for him. And I think there is definitely a narrative that's taken hold with many supporters that Maresca's football is stifling Palmer and Jackson. I don't think that's the whole story. Put it that way, it may be a factor, but I think there are many factors. I think the injury is part of it. No athlete is immune to a dip in confidence or form. Palmer is playing with way more pressure this season than he did last year. Last year he was a feel good story. No one expected him to be a superstar from the word go. Opponents didn't expect him to be a superstar from the word go. He's getting fouled much more, he's getting marked much more. Maresca's spoken about this. His whole experience of Premier League football has changed this season and I think that's part of his growth as a player. There's no doubt that we'll see the class again, but right now he's nowhere near his best and it is undeniably hurting Chelsea.
[18:18]
Ayo Akimwila
Okay, David, I don't think we've actually spoken to you about this before in terms of how expensively assembled this squad is, but also, you know, are they getting enough money for or they're getting enough of a performance, I should say, for the money that they've spent on this squad. Should we be expecting more from this Chelsea squad considering how richly it's been assembled?
[18:38]
David Ornstein
Well, the supporters certainly expect more and that's why we're seeing such dissatisfaction. I think you've always got a caveat it with the age profile of the squad. They've signed a hell of a lot of young players and that requires time and patience, which are words that no football fan likes to hear. I think on average they've got the youngest lineup in the Premier League this season. Therefore, form of players like Cole Palmer is likely to fluctuate. And there's a sort of wider conversation here about whether Chelsea should have some more experienced players, some older heads, and a lot has been said and written about that recently and it is a topic of conversation among the fan base. Look, I know Maresca has pointed to this and it hasn't gone down well with, with sections of the the Chelsea fans, but the season is improved compared to last time round. You know, they've spent most of it in the top four area. Some of it they were being talked about as potential title winners, which considering all of the upheaval since the ownership change occurred, is fairly remarkable because Chelsea were being described as a bit of a basket case in, in certain quarters as players and staff and execs were coming and going and, and results were way below, you know, historic expectations. And this season they've largely been, you know, fighting in the area that they want to. There has been a slump that's coincided with absences and Palmer's loss of form. But now some of those players are back and it's judgment time. It started well at Fulham. It needs to continue. These are like cup finals and you know, there's not much margin for error. Chelsea's fixtures are tough, but the rivals for that, Champions League spots don't have easy fixtures. I think Manchester City's running is probably the kindest after they play Aston Villa. But everybody else, Forest and Villa have some tough assignments and it is there for the taking and therefore you kind of will appraise it afterwards. I think if Chelsea get back into the Champions League, it is clear progress, even though there is some unhappiness about the style. This is Enzo Maresca's first season. It's his first sort of job at one of the top clubs. So these are kind of still embryonic days. That young squad is still sort of bedding in. There's some finishing touches that the Chelsea hierarchy will be looking to make in the transfer market and we'll come on to speak about that. And so while I can sort of understand the unease and at times anger and to answer your question, yet much of the public and the media and those who watch Chelsea week in, week out, expect a lot more. I'm sure the hierarchy do as well. But in the context of the nine months which aren't complete yet, I think it is getting better and they'll hope to do a bit more in the upcoming window, whether they're in the Champions League or not to to continue that. I don't think Champions League qualification is make or break for Maresca and his future. Now, Champions League qualification was. Is the club's target and so they'll be deeply disappointed if they don't get there. But you know, he was given a five plus one year contract. If you compare that to Pochettino, it was a much shorter term and that's why Pochettino got assessed after one year. I think that Maresca is going to be assessed after two years, especially with Chelsea competing in the Club World cup and then the new Premier League season starts two weeks later. So it's maybe not been as good as many wanted it to be, but I don't think it's been too bad. And I do think we need to sort of reserve judgment for the outcome in a. In a few weeks time.
[22:42]
Ayo Akimwila
Yeah, Liam, I think it's a really good opportunity to talk about Mareska's style and David makes some really interesting points, especially the length of contract, but he also talks about time and patience. You know, this is a Chelsea fan base that were, how can I say this politely singing not so Nice things to the manager, but also the style in itself. I look at a player like Rhys James being played in the midfield and that that sort of experiment doesn't seem to have worked. Do Chelsea fans have time and patience, do the board have time and patience to see the kind of football that hopefully Maresca is trying to create here at Chelsea?
[23:16]
Liam Toomey
Well, I think we're seeing a disconnect between the way Chelsea's leadership are looking at this and the way that certainly a lot of match going fans look at this. Because if, if you consider this from the perspective of the, the people who go to, to Stamford Bridge and follow Chelsea all over England and Europe when they've been in Europe in the last three years, it's been a lot of pain in the post Abramovich era. There's been a lot of upheaval at times. It hasn't been particularly clear even what the plan is. I think it is clear what the plan is now. It's just whether you agree with it or not. And there is still, I think, a sense of disorientation at the speed of change from the way the club was operated under Abramovic, when patience was not a virtue. That was not part of the club's DNA. It was win today and win tomorrow, and if we have to change to win tomorrow, we'll do it. I think there's disorientation about that and there's also a sense that something has been lost in what Chelsea was. And there isn't a great sense of identification, I think, with this group of players and certainly not with Maresca. And part of the problem is that they had a project with Potter which ended after seven months. They then had what many people thought was even in spite of the contract, he was given maybe a longer term play with Pochettino, which ended after another season. So this is another new start that Chelsea fans are being after, ask to be patient with. And everything that David said about Mareska is true. He's a young coach, he's not fully formed. He's probably not what he will be in three or four years as a coach. But I think part of the problem that Chelsea are experiencing right now is a lot of fans are not invested in that learning curve that Maresca is going on, that this group of players are going on. And so with every setback, these frustrations come bubbling to the surface. And in Chelsea's worst moments this season, that can then cascade to make those setbacks worse. And I think that that's where the toxic atmosphere has kind of played into things. But that's not to say that, you know, fans are to blame in any way for what's happening. They feel how they feel. That's the way football fans have always been. But it is just a part of the current Chelsea dynamic.
[25:40]
David Ornstein
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Ayo Akimwila
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David Ornstein
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Ayo Akimwila
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David Ornstein
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[27:45]
David Ornstein
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[27:47]
Liam Toomey
IO Acemolera.
[27:51]
Ayo Akimwila
Right, David having spent over £1 billion since taking charge at Stamford Bridge, it's likely we can expect even more business from Todd Boehly and Clear Lakes Chelsea this summer. You know, last week in the podcast we were talking about Liam delap and Chelsea's interest in Liam delap. Is it right that that's where perhaps they're focusing efforts on as a priority in the summer? Because there are other parts of this field we haven't even spoken about. Keeper is another one we've not talked about.
[28:20]
David Ornstein
Yeah, first thing to say is, and you know, I reported previously and Chelsea fans listening to this will remember it, that the club had identified sort of by the end of the summer window 2024, as when their squad rebuild should be pretty much done and that's when they should be judged. Well, we're now heading into summer 25, I feel on the whole they believe that they've got the basis at the club of what they want to need going forward, whether it be players that are there now, players that are due to come in, players Strasbourg, for example, on loan, such as Andre Santos. And now they want to sort of put finishing touches to it, players who can make an impact and really make them competitive and keep them there into the future. Squad building, I guess, is always an evolution and so you may target a date for when you want to be complete by. And we'd said similar things with Arsenal in the past. You know, they, they had in their head and, you know, three or four transfer windows when it was Edu and Arteta and then they would be competitive again. It has played out, you know, along those lines, but the dates are never quite exact. Striker is Chelsea's top priority, as we understand it. And you mentioned dilap there. He's among the options they're looking at along with, say, Sesco and Ekatike, and there'll be others on the list as well, so we'll see which way that ends up. You know, they've got high hopes for Jackson and this would be adding to the front line a in a position that many people have felt they've needed for a long time. Then they're looking for a wide player. Not for the first time, you know, that they've recruited wingers and they're still looking in that position. So that's why you see names such as Jamie Gittins, Alejandro Garnacho, Nico Williams players. They've had quite well documented interest and that's ongoing. And again, in that position there will be more options. The center of midfield is a bit different because Andre Santos, the plan I think is for him to come in and be part of the squad. He's had a fantastic season at Strasbourg and there'll be a lot of excitement and intrigue on how he'll fare. It didn't go so well at Nottingham Forest, did it, but he has really flourished and that's one to look forward to. And then Dario Esugo will be coming in. There's a pre contract agreement that was signed and he's from Sporting Lisbon. It would be like a, a sort of COVID really for Caicedo, I think in terms of his profile. And then you look towards the back and I could imagine a center back coming in another. It would require exits and that's why you see Chelsea looking at players such as, in no particular order, Dean Hoisen, Mark Gahey, Jared Branthwaite, Jeroel Hatto and again, you know, multiple options for, for that position. It'll be fascinating to see outgoings on that front. And then, yeah, coming to your point about goalkeeper Liam smiling there, look at.
[31:19]
Ayo Akimwila
Liv's as grim in the corner.
[31:21]
David Ornstein
It's not really been satisfactory.
[31:23]
Liam Toomey
I'm just canceling all my holiday for the summer.
[31:26]
David Ornstein
Well, I mean that, that, that shirt could go to one of the existing keepers in terms of if, if Sanchez or Jorgensen can, can prove themselves, you know, it's not been a great time and, and then Petrovic, who's had a really good season at Strasbourg and, and Penders, you know, is said to be the next big thing in goalkeeping and has a really bright future. So are one of the two who are out going to come in? Either of the two that are in going to go out, is there going to be a different keeper signed if all of them are deemed not quite right for that position at this moment, but it's not been good enough, the goalkeeping and that needs to be improved. So on the one hand I've said a couple of cherries on the cake and then in the other I've gone through sort of every position but I think it's sort of bringing in, you know, two or three players of a really high level to almost take Chelsea to a level of real competitiveness and winning, not sort of adding depth. Now they seem to have the depth and therefore it is going to be a busy sum. Obviously, they've got to make the decision on Jadon Sancho and there will be outgoings again that, you know, whatever anybody says about the spending, which has been vast, that they've complied with profitability and sustainability, people will immediately say, oh, the hotel and the women's team, fair points. But. But the outgoings, the. The sales have been really impressive and. And there always seems to be interest in their players and they've got good prices for them. So on that front, I'm sure they'll look to balance the books again. But it would be naive of us to take our eye off Chelsea in this window, which is going to keep the likes of me, Liam, Simon and others on our toes.
[33:04]
Ayo Akimwila
Yeah, Liam, just a quick one, and we haven't mentioned it, but Christopher Nkunku was dropped against Fulham and that was really interesting for me. And we've spoken on this podcast how he just hasn't found that form, whether he's in the desired position or whatnot. Do we know more about what's going on there? Because he played in the Conference League, but then this is such an important game and you're looking at a team that's looking for attacking options. There's one there that's not playing for the team.
[33:30]
Liam Toomey
Yeah. We don't know all the details around why he was left out against Fulham. We do know that Maresca has made these technical decisions before this season with other players, and it's usually been related to training performance, that he just hasn't been happy with what he's seen. I think we can only judge without hearing more on what we've seen from Nkunku on the pitch. And yes, there has been this constant psychodrama about what's his best position or role in this team. I think it's also fair to say that there have been serious questions about his level of engagement and effort in some of these games, and his body language has not always been very good. And so, I mean, it's been pretty widely documented that I think all parties will look to go their separate ways this summer. It hasn't worked for him at Chelsea. There have been lots of reasons for that, plenty of them outside of his control. But I think this season has also been partly in his control, and he hasn't made the most of the opportunities that he's had. So I'm sure he will be one of the many players that Chelsea are looking to sell to get off their wage bill and to raise funds this summer. And I'm sure, he'll be looking for a fresh start, but in the meantime, I think that also magnifies what Tyreek George managed to do off the substitutes bench, because Chelsea have really lacked that alternative to Jackson whenever Jackson isn't scoring, which hasn't been often recently, someone to come on and get a vital goal to change the momentum of a game. And I think it wouldn't surprise me at all if Tyreek George gets a lot more of those opportunities than Nkunku down the final stretch of this season.
[35:09]
Ayo Akimwila
Okay, David, you talk about game changing players and players that can just sort of fit into this jigsaw that's already already been built, but what about the profile of those players? Are we still looking at that under 23 category? I wouldn't say it served them well so far, but seems to be a strategy that Chelsea have followed.
[35:26]
David Ornstein
Yeah, and look, I think it's really important to say that we're not aware of there being rules around signing under 23 players, which has been suggested by some that that's what Chelsea are limiting themselves to. No, I don't think so. I think that they looked for top young players which maybe came with the benefit of being able to put them on reasonable salaries. They've brought the wage bill down significantly from what it was before and spaced them out over long term contracts. Make of that what you will. But you do speak to people around the game who are lauding the quality of many of Chelsea's signings. And it's really a global recruitment effort. But the thing is, we're going to have to wait to see with many of them how it fares. It's also fair to point out that, you know, you can get young players who are experienced. Look at Bukayo Saka at Arsenal, for example. He's played so much football, you regard him as a senior player at such a tender age and Chelsea will know that many of these players will be benefiting from the amount they're playing now, even though it's not gone as well in terms of success as they would have hoped. Right at the beginning of the project, they did bring in, you know, a Raheem Sterling, a Koulibaly. Okay, those didn't work out so well, but I don't think they would limit themselves if the right opportunity arose. And that's why there was interest in somebody like a Virgil Van Dijk prior to him signing his new contract at Liverpool. I've seen some reaction to that being mentioned in a number of reports and people saying, not true, rubbish. No, it was True, there was interest. If he had been available for the reasons that, you know, he would have been a free transfer for a start. So that would have mitigated a higher salary than Chelsea have been handing out of late. Sam Wallace in the Telegraph wrote a really interesting piece about that. Who can they look for around world football that might fit that bill with people like Luka Modric maybe leaving Real Madrid and Kevin De Bruyne, formerly of Chelsea, on his way out of, of Manchester City. Let's see on all of that, I think it's more, you know, they, they're market opportunities and of players that can make a great impact. It's not that, oh, Chelsea need old experienced heads, they need good players and leadership can come in many forms. And if Van Dijk had been doable, it'd be naive not to have looked at that. For everything he represents as it was, he only had eyes on Liverpool.
[37:53]
Ayo Akimwila
Yeah, I mean, Liam, that's an interesting one. Modric De Bruyne at Chelsea and I guess you know, the De Bruyne link, Maresca is a disciple of Guardiola. Could work. There's no contract on the table.
[38:05]
Liam Toomey
Yeah, it could work. And Modric would be proof that Chelsea always get their man. Even if it takes after all these years, even if it takes 10, 15 years to do. Happens eventually and it's like 39. It would in one sense be a deviation from what they've largely done under this ownership. But we also saw that this ownership retained Thiago Silva and continue to give him prominence because he was a high caliber veteran with real stature, real respect in the dressing room and there was a feeling that he could be a valuable leader. So I think there's always space for that. I think it's only natural that those conversations would be happening within Chelsea sporting leadership as well as within the fan base, because you can see at times that Chelsea could maybe use a little bit more experience in certain situations. But that said, Ipswich provided some evidence of this. Fulham certainly did. There is a spirit in this team. It started to emerge under Pochettino. I think we're still seeing it under Maresca. They are fighting together for results through setbacks and that wouldn't be happening if there was, you know, zero character, zero personality in the group. Group.
[39:22]
David Ornstein
I think the one player that maybe there's a regret over and it's not the doing of this regime was Antonio Rudiger leaving on a free transfer because he's an absolute warrior and we've seen how well he's done throughout his career. He could have been the sort of heir apparent to Thiago Silva. And I think you can look back on that and say, yeah, he was the one that really could have helped this transition and guided some of the younger players. That the, the way that he's still a top player, but he also leads by example. He's a great influence in the dressing room as well. And look, probably now be linked to all sorts of names. Yeah, I've seen Thomas Muller mentioned as well. No, I don't, don't see that happening at all.
[40:05]
Ayo Akimwila
I can't see that happening.
[40:07]
David Ornstein
So let's keep a limit on it. But I think that it's a reasonable conversation. I also don't think, you know, people will hear this and state, one minute they're doing this youth strategy and now you're talking. I don't think it's quite that binary, black and white. I think it's as a squad evolves, you know, they, they've brought in a lot of really good, talented young players. You know, at times you may need to bring in something a little bit more mature. That that is Okay. I don't necessarily think it, you know, shows a sign of a sporting hierarchy that doesn't know what they're doing. I think it is adapting to the circumstances and the evidence and like, unfortunately, this is going to take quite some time to play out and we all want the answers now. But. But yeah, back to the word I started with earlier, the patience. The dreaded word patience is required.
[41:00]
Ayo Akimwila
Yeah. Chelsea's fans, time and patience, please. Anyway, gents, thanks for your time, Liam, David, and thank you all for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.
[41:10]
David Ornstein
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroo and Jay Beal. The executive producer was Ailey Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
[41:32]
Liam Toomey
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.