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- [00:00]
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Ayo Akemolere
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- [01:08]
Ayo Akemolere
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akemolere. Graham Potter is the latest manager to be shown the door at West Ham. In comes a new challenger, Nuno Espirito Santo. But do West Ham's problems go beyond their manager? Here with us today we've got the man who exclusively broke the news of Potter sacking Rushane Thomas and also long suffering West Ham fan and founder of photography platform pickfair Benji Legardo as well. Rishane. Let's go in on this one. Straight in. We'll discuss the Nuno situation a little later on. But when it comes to Potter, talk to us about what you know about his dismissal.
- [01:53]
Rashane Thomas
Well, first of all, I absolutely love the way you pronounce Nino's name. That was absolutely amazing. So I need some advice.
- [01:59]
Ayo Akemolere
I've been taking Portuguese lessons in it.
- [02:02]
Rashane Thomas
Well, it turns a great part himself. He found out Saturday morning that he'd been relieved of his duties and he arrived at the training ground with the intention of preparing for Monday night's game against Everton and he was informed that he'd been sacked. And reflecting on it now, I think it was poorly handled by the club's hierarchy being so close to the game. What they should have done was dismiss them after the loss against Crystal Palace. That way Nuno would have the whole week to prepare for the match. But look, the Ryan has been on the wall for Graham Potter for a very long time. The performances were underwhelming. He wasn't getting the best out of the team Benji was touching it. Whenever the other team would score first head would always drop and as if the players accept defeat. Whereas last night when Everton scored first, the players were still encouraged and still displays fighting spirit. So that shows straight away there's already been a shift in mentality under Nino. I think tactically back to Graham Potter, he was very insistent on a 5, 3, 2 formation. Everyone could see it wasn't working. He reverted back to a back four on the win against Forest, but as far as I'm concerned it was a little too late. So they're the things that definitely come to mind in terms of his struggles. Bollock. Overall, it was the wrong fit and it's one that had complications at the start because David Sullivan wanted to abort him on a short term deal, whereas Kym Brady took over negotiations and gave him a long term contract, which is now proving to be the wrong decision.
- [03:19]
Ayo Akemolere
Yeah, I mean Benji, some of these numbers aren't great. You're looking at six of his 25 games, he only won at West Ham. And I, I think about that moment that West Ham beat Arsenal in February away and I'm thinking, okay, there's something here. But it just didn't seem to work. Any surprises that I guess he was relieved of his duties?
- [03:41]
Benji Legardo
No, I mean, I've got to say I think it's one of the most forgettable tenures as a West Ham manager that we've had in the last couple of decades. I don't think it was clear at all at any stage what he was actually trying to do. I, I don't think it was clear what Potterball at West Ham was even attempting to be with Lopetegui. It didn't work, but at least you could sense and see that he was trying something quite different with a lot more possession based football and, and fullbacks really high up. There was a sort of strategy there that failed, but it was a strategy nonetheless with Potter. I'm not sure what the strategy was. I'm not sure we ever saw it. And I think it's notable you mentioned that Arsenal win at the Emirates that sort of ended their, their title charge last season. That was sort of soak it up and play on the break football, which is not what you associate with Potter, it's kind of what you associate with Moyes and it's something you definitely associate with Nuno. So actually maybe we've, we've come to where we should have been all along, which is applying a sort of pragmatic approach to the football rather than something dogmatic that Lopetegui and Potto are both potentially trying to do. You know, I do think we are at a moment in the Premier League where versatility and pragmatism is king. You know, even Guardiola is willing to kind of hit it long, do long throws, play four centre backs, park the bus. Yeah, and you've got these kind of like, you know, potential. I wouldn't quite call them Guardiola acolytes, but these dogmatic managers that have got a system and a style, like Ange, like Amarin, like Potter, they don't seem to be working anymore. So we've gone back to something that we know probably does, and. And that's a manager in the shape of Nuno.
- [05:12]
Ayo Akemolere
Okay, fair. I mean, look, Rochen, you've written a great piece on Potter's time at the Athletic, and I guess something that really came out of that article was, I guess, a bit of friction between him and some players. Edson Alvarez, Jean, Claire, Tadibo as well. I mean, was this a common theme or did you feel like the rest of the dress room sort of had his back as well?
- [05:32]
Rashane Thomas
Well, let's not forget this is also a common theme of Zaptegi. He also clashed with with some of the senior players. So in fairness to Graham Potter, he tried his best to. To make it a more harmonious dressing room. But the way I see it, it was just problems that. That are far beyond his control. Far beyond his control. So, for example, Tedebo Todibo, as far as, like I said, has been the biggest disappointment for, for West Ham. He arrived with good expectations because he turned on a move to Juventus. We thought, okay, this is a good defender that could be at West Ham for the next three, four seasons. And now by all intents and purposes, looks like he'll be gone at some point because he's just not factoring in plans at the minute. So he was poor in training and build up to the loss against Tottenham. Graham Porter called him to his office, say, look, I need improvement. Like this isn't good enough. The following day, he turns out later training. He turns out later training. So that's one character that was very difficult. Hawkwegg. He wasn't best pleased with Falkwig in terms of his personality, the almost arrogance he possessed. And he wasn't best pleased with his comments after the draw against Southampton. Words which I won't repeat on this podcast, but if you read the article, you'll see what he said. So the number of players that Graham Potter clashed with and that's where I do sympathise with him because he tried his best to be a man manager, to give players that, that love and that warm feel. But yeah, the problems were far, far, far deeper than Graham Potter, unfortunately.
- [06:50]
Ayo Akemolere
Yeah, I mean, let's, let's get into Potter a little bit. Benji and Rashane, please jump on. But I'd struggle to see another Premier League club, especially a Premier League club that wants to maybe do bits, take him on right now. But this was, the guy was potentially heralded as the next England manager. This was the guy that we saw at Chelsea that came from Brighton. Perhaps he could make things work there. Obviously it didn't work out at Chelsea, but was there some hope when he came, Benji, that he was going to do something special here at West Ham?
- [07:20]
Benji Legardo
Yeah, I think he, he probably represented what a lot of West Ham fans were hoping we would upgrade Moyes with. Right. So in principle, the way it was supposed to go was you say thank you very much, Moyes, you've been fantastic, you've been incredibly successful. But we, we want to play some really, you know, exciting, sexy, attacking, possession based football now and I think, you know, the fans are within their right to sort of want to try something like that. And initially, ironically, they went for Amerin, they went all out for Amarin and Amerin didn't fancy it, so we sort of fell back in Lopetegui and that didn't work. And so Potter then came along and I think everyone was like, yeah, I think this is probably one of the best managers we can get in this situation. He does represent that more kind of progressive, interesting attacking football. We saw it at Brighton, we saw it at O. Or, you know, some of us that were, that were keeping an eye on him at the time saw it then. And you can't really blame him for what happened at Chelsea because at the time Chelsea was sort of a bit mad and all over the place and you know, they're probably always a bit mad and all over the place, but either way, you can't really blame the manager in that situation. So it felt like, yes, this was a really good appointment. It was the kind of thing we were looking for and it felt like he could imprint some of this more attacking, interesting flowing football upon this team and it's clearly failed. Now that might have been partly to do with some of the tools at his disposal and the way the club is run. I'm sure we can talk about that further shortly. But at the same time, even without the tools at your disposal, that you ideally sculpting a team with. You should be able to impress something and if nothing else, you should be able to impress a bit of authority. I'm going to quote Charlie Jones, the producer of the Totally Football Show. He sent me a message the other day and he was saying, don't be offended. Obviously it was quite offensive. But he said, I feel like West Ham fan. He said, I feel like West Ham fans quite like to have managers you would back in a fight, as in a literal fight. And I. And I. And he was like, moyes, yes. Billich, yes. Potter, no. And now this is again, maybe, you know, a bit reductive and unfair, but he doesn't have that kind of heft about him. He doesn't. I can't imagine him being scary. I can't imagine him in a situation with Todibo or Falkrug. These are two like, you know, big strapping lads, right, really taking them down and getting the rest of the team behind him and really feeling as if, you know, you don't want to get on the wrong side of this guy with Nuno. Yeah, I can imagine that. I can imagine Nuno really taking a player to task, scaring his players a little bit and if nothing else, making sure there is absolute discipline in there. Potter, I'm just not sure he's that sort of character. And maybe he didn't fit this sort of club, he didn't fit this sort of dressing room. And he's probably better off going to the sort of club he was at before in Brighton, a kind of project data driven football team. Or maybe an exciting overseas appointment like he initially found on his way up with Ostersons.
- [10:12]
Rashane Thomas
You know what I want to add to that, right, because that's a great point Beji made. And how I look at it is right, since Moises left, worst time I've had two supply teachers in Loptegi and Potter, right? And if you think back to school days when you had a supply, my teacher, everyone knows it's a free lesson. You know, it's a free lesson. The homework doesn't get done. Everyone's loud. Teacher coming to the class thinking, why is the classroom so loud? Our supply teacher, that's why. That is how it's been. Whereas as be touched on Nuno, homework is getting done, everyone taking their lesson much more seriously. Like we've seen already with warpaths getting dropped. No, actually no nonsense approach. So hopefully that sort of fair is reflecting and then poor performance as moving forward.
- [10:53]
Benji Legardo
So we should talk about that. Because I think, if you don't mind like that, like Roshane's right, His first big decision, I think, was a really telling one in dropping Ward Prowse not only from the team, but from the squad right now. He had Ward Prowse on loan at Forest last season and clearly didn't like him because we came back to West Ham in January, right? And what I think, unfortunately, Ward Prowse has come to represent in this team. We know all about his technical ability, we know about his set pieces, but he is ultimately slow, both in his, you know, the pace of his feet and his decision making. And, you know, he brought in Magasa last night and then. And then once Magasa got a yellow card, he brought in pots. The way they picked the ball up and moved it quickly was immediately more energetic. Look at Forest midfield with Gibbs White and Elliot Anderson. And look what Elliot Anderson has now brought to England. They move the ball quickly, right? They've got this energy, this vim and this vigor that really set the tone in the team. And unfortunately, with Ward Prowse, the opposite was happening. So that is. That is straight away, Nuna coming in and saying, I want this team to play with energy and pace. And we've got the players like, certainly Matthias Fernandes is that sort of player. And between Magassa and Potts, you've got someone that can be a bit of a general, bit of a metronome, pass it on to a more creative player alongside him. And then again, we saw last night as well, Somerville, he was sort of, you know, he was Callum Hudson Odoi incarnate, wasn't he? Right. He was sort of was doing all those things. He was running at his defender, he was being aggressive, attacking. Again, we know this is something that Nuno really felt was very important. Overlapping fullbacks. Look at, look at, to youth last night. I think we got a real player on our hands there. So there were. There were elements of Nuno. Maybe this is wishful thinking and maybe I'm superimposing this on what actually happened, but you could see already a little bit of identity being stamped onto the team and you recognised it from things you saw at Forest.
- [12:38]
Ayo Akemolere
So Nuno only had two days to prep for last night's match. So what can we expect from Nuno's side when they're fully up and running? Well, let's hear from our data guru, Mark Carey.
- [12:48]
Mark Carey
I think most fans know what they're going to get from a Nuno Espirito Santo side by now in terms of Style of play making a difference.
- [12:55]
Benji Legardo
And Hudson Odyssey has made an even.
- [12:59]
Mark Carey
Bigger difference there, especially his time at Wolves and Nottingham Forest in the Premier League.
- [13:03]
Benji Legardo
He.
- [13:04]
Mark Carey
He's built a really clear playing style. It's based on compact, low block defending and really direct, purposeful attacks. And I think a lot of people think that you need to control the game by having the ball, typically, but Nottingham Forest showed that that's not necessarily the case. They finished seventh last season with the third lowest possession share among all Premier League teams. But there's quite a lot of that season, last season that they felt like they were controlling a lot of the game, even though they didn't have it.
- [13:31]
Rashane Thomas
Wood with a header back across and it's in.
- [13:34]
Mark Carey
So, you know, when they did have the ball, they sprung forward with a lot of purpose, as I mentioned before. And this is certainly backed up by the numbers. So 14% of their total passes last season went long, and that was the third highest rate of any team in the Premier League. And it shows just how much Nuno wants to get the ball forward. And their volume of counter attacks were also the third highest in the Premier League last season.
- [13:58]
Inspirational Voice
Still going once.
- [14:00]
Rashane Thomas
Well, they haven't had that many chances in this second half, but when they do get it, they make them count.
- [14:06]
Mark Carey
And in terms of the pace of that as well, their direct speed, which measures how fast a team advances upfield in terms of meters per second, that was the quickest of any Premier League side last season. So I think it shows just how much pace Nuno likes to play with when they do have the ball in terms of that counter attacking style. And he uses his wide men, his wingers, as much as he can to great effect.
- [14:28]
Rashane Thomas
How about that? Nottingham Forest, seven goals this afternoon.
- [14:35]
Mark Carey
So for West Ham fans, I think they can expect directness, speed on the counter attacks, strength in set pieces as well, and compact defending out of possession. I think they're all things that have been lacking in the last few months under Graham Potter.
- [14:53]
Ayo Akemolere
Yeah, I mean, that was Mark Carey from the sounds of it. Rashane, do you know Espirito Santo is more Moise esque. Is that what West Ham need right now?
- [15:03]
Rashane Thomas
Yeah, some, you know, some flavour, some Perry with some nice sauce. You know, that's certainly Nino right now. And look, maybe he's not.
- [15:13]
Ayo Akemolere
So he's a spicier David Moyes, is.
- [15:15]
Rashane Thomas
That what you're saying? A spicier David Moyes, indeed. So maybe he's not as charismatic as Moyes, but he's someone who West Ham need right now. West Ham needs someone who could take like a no nonsense approach. Someone, as I mentioned, I use the teaching analogy or the supplier. You get the main teacher back. That's what West Ham need right now, to just install that fair and players that. No, we can't mess about. This is serious business. And hopefully down the line, Nuno builds a team at Skateboard Challenge. If you. Because he showed he could do it at Nottingham Forest and he's got the players like the Bowen Somerville who could be De Langes, he could be the Hostel Doyles, the Morgan Gibbs White. So hopefully moving forward we see similarities.
- [15:53]
Ayo Akemolere
Well, next we'll discuss Nuno's West Ham.
- [15:58]
Benji Legardo
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akimolere.
- [16:05]
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- [17:48]
Ayo Akemolere
He gets there before Tarkovsk is brilliant from Jeff and a good header from Key, but only as far as Bo.
- [17:55]
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- [17:58]
Ayo Akemolere
The man for West Ham again? Yeah, I mean, Resen, you were at the game. Was it good? To finally see a little bit of fight back from West Ham.
- [18:06]
Rashane Thomas
Yeah, it certainly was. It's great to see a fighting spirit because that's been lacking in. In recent weeks. And my biggest takeaway postmatch was the unity shown there, the away enclosure. Nuno sort of led the. Led the applause to. To the away fans. The fans started singing Nino's name. He rejoined the group and then he sort of looked at him, thought, nah, let's all go to. Let's all go together to do away in. So it was great seeing that unity and togetherness and look, overall, that was a solid performance from West Ham. Certainly stepping the right direction. Hair's not dropping after conceding first. And you almost fancy West Ham to get a late winner as well. So this weekend against Arsenal, it's not as if you're going into thinking, what would the score be? You're looking at thinking, oh, West Ham could get another positive result.
- [18:47]
Ayo Akemolere
Yeah. So on. On Saturday, it was Potter out and Nuno in Benji. I mean, look, you've spoken about his sort of impact in his first match, really, and what you've seen so far is this the right man for the job at West Ham. I know the supply teacher's out and in comes the proper teacher, to use Rashane's words. But, you know, let's look at the way he left Forrest. Kind of volatile, definitely likes to have things his way and I'm not going to lie, so does West Ham's leadership.
- [19:16]
Benji Legardo
Yes. But I've got to say, actually, I almost want to just catch myself here before I give David Sullivan any praise. But I think generally speaking, if he trusts a manager, he will leave them to it. Like he trust. He trusted Moyes and he pretty much left him to it. And he was willing to listen to Moyes with some appointment. Ironically, we've just talked about James Ward Prowse. Moyes really wanted James Ward Prowse, and he made sure that that one got over the line, despite what the kind of directorship of football or whatever was, was had to say about it. I think you could go one or two ways with Nuno. I think it could either go that way, in which he pretty quickly establishes that he's got control of this team and he's starting to imprint some of what we know his football to be, which potentially we did see last night at Everton, at which point I think Sullivan probably will step back and leave him to it because he doesn't want any more spotlight at the moment. It's happening consistently every game. They're a chance against Sullivan and it might be getting to a stage and we can talk about this shortly, that it might be that really the best thing to do is for him to sort of bow out. And of course it could go the other way. Oyo, as we've seen, Nuno has got a big personality. So if there is a real flashpoint, then yes, possibly. But maybe Nuno again has learned from what has happened under Marianakis and Edu at Forest that he has to, when it comes to these sort of big characters, he has to toe the line a little bit.
- [20:38]
Ayo Akemolere
One of the things I was interested in is some of the names that were being thrown into the ring as potential replacements for Potter Billich knocking on that door. I mean, even if you think about, you know, before Potter came in and Reuben Amarim was sort of touted as a potential, you know, West Ham coach, I mean, what is the plan for West Ham? What is the plan for where they want to take this team post? David Moyes, obviously he offered some sort of stability and there was a European football there. But like, those names don't scream. And I'll say, especially with Amaru, what we've seen at Manchester United don't scream. Inspiration. They don't scream.
- [21:15]
Rashane Thomas
Right.
- [21:15]
Ayo Akemolere
We want to see us as a top six, top ten club.
- [21:20]
Benji Legardo
Yeah. Well, I think again, I say there was this with a little bit of hesitance, the fans, I've got to accept that we probably all got it a bit wrong as well. Now, personally, I loved, I love David Moyes and David Moyes is the greatest West Ham manager of my lifetime. He gave me the best footballing night of my life in Prague and even I felt, okay, let's try something else. We've had a great run here, we've achieved, but let's see if there is another way of playing possible. You know, I think everyone over the last few years has looked at clubs like Brighton, like Brentford, like Bournemouth, all the Bees and sort of thought, ah, yeah, what's going on there is really interesting and exciting and different. Let's see if we can do that. And West Ham have tried to do it and what we've learned is that actually what that requires is a completely different structure of a football club. It requires really sort of top down innovation and bottom up innovation at the same time. That is all on the same page. That is willing to try and play in a certain way, recruit in a certain way, study the data in a certain way. That's not West Ham, that's not West Ham. You're not going to suddenly just click your fingers and become Brentford or Bournemouth or otherwise. So the reality is, what is Sullivan trying to do? Very good question. Not many people really know IO Maybe it's a case of just hanging on, keeping us in the Premier League before he can sell it onto somebody or sell the rest of his stake to Kras, the Czech billionaire that owns a big part of us. But yeah, the question you ask is pertinent because I don't think anyone really knows at West Ham right now. It's just trying to stay in the Premier League. That will be their objective this season.
- [22:58]
Ayo Akemolere
Yeah, I mean, I just want to touch on how this club works and actually what the future looks like for this club. Because, you know, at so many clubs these days we see sporting directors, technical directors, all that kind of stuff. What does the football operations look like and how does it work at West Ham?
- [23:15]
Rashane Thomas
Well, you've got Kerm Brady, who's basically in charge of the day to day running as vice chairman. And below her you have Tara Warren, who's the executive director who also tasked dealing the day to day runnings. You got Sullivan, who's majority shareholder, so he's the main guy. Below him you got Daniel Katinski, who's the second largest shareholder. You have Vanessa Gold, daughter of David Gold, but she's looking to sell her shares and hasn't found a successful buyer yet. And we have Trip Smith below that, an American rest star since I believe 2018. So he very much committed them. Look, whenever I him, he's always got some sort of investor, some sort of investor, some sort of influencer name. So he certainly seem to have long term ambitions for the club in terms of operation. It's not the same as other clubs. So when fans protest like the Hamish United, they want to see a CEO appointed, for example. That's why they want Karen Brady step down, because they feel like she's not doing a good enough job. But when you compare West Ham to other clubs, you can see why it is almost amateurish how they go about some of their methods, the appointments of managers, for example. It's not a reflection of a two Premier League club, in my opinion.
- [24:17]
Ayo Akemolere
Well, coming up we'll discuss fan protests against the board and we'll ask the eternal question, what do West Ham actually want to achieve?
- [24:32]
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- [25:23]
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- [26:00]
Benji Legardo
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IowaKamulere.
- [26:04]
Ayo Akemolere
Well, look, there were chants of sack the board and we want our club back from the away support last night. Benji, why are fans fed up? Does the name Sullivan have anything to do with this by any chance?
- [26:15]
Benji Legardo
Yeah, I mean, there was some fruitier chance than that, let me tell you. Ultimately, when things are going badly on the pitch, generally speaking, over the last little while, the attention has gone back to Golden Sullivan. Like we've been here before. I don't know if you remember. I think it was back in 2015, 16, the Burnley game at the Olympic Stadium. We lost three nil. There were fans on the pitch and there were, you know, the kind of moat in between the pitch and the boardroom section was filled with West Ham fans and poor old Trevor Brooking was sitting there, you know, sucking it all up. And then what happened afterwards? Well, we got a bit more successful again and we bought some better players and we. And at the time, that was Moyes first, first period at the club. We tried to mix it up thereafter and, you know, it didn't work. But still the fans ultimately forgot and I think they're realizing that this just keeps on happening. We keep on being back in the same sort of fudge. We're not really progressing systematically as a football club. And you've Tried different managers, you've tried lots of plays, you've spent a huge amount of money, gets to a stage where actually you've ruled everything out. The one other thing there is to try is an entirely new ownership. Whether that is going to happen, I really don't know. But it is clear that ultimately we are operating in a very old fashioned way at West Ham. I personally think that anger and the vitriol, as always in football, is unhelpful and unnecessary and unfortunately, maybe a little bit ungrateful because Golden Sullivan have done some very good things for this club. But the time, you know, seems to be up for them now. I certainly think so. And the other massive, massive, huge, Olympic sized elephant in the room is that stadium.
- [28:03]
Ayo Akemolere
That's my next question.
- [28:04]
Benji Legardo
Well, and I think that for many fans, myself included, we will always be fundamentally diminished as a club and our kind of cultural ceiling will always be limited with that stadium. And I'm not quite sure how you get around that.
- [28:20]
Ayo Akemolere
It still doesn't feel like home to you guys.
- [28:21]
Benji Legardo
Do you know what? I. I was thinking about this. There have been some times in that stadium where, God, it's so exciting. And I'm thinking about like the European nights in our kind of three seasons in Europe, the sort of second leg against Leverkusen in the final season in the Europa League. The noise when Antonio put in that header in the first half. You know, there have been moments, there have been times when, boy, it feels good in that stadium. But ultimately, look at that stadium last night. Look at the Hill Dickerson Stadium. Look at what spurs have done. We have seen exactly what it looks like to invest in and build a proper football stadium. And we know that we didn't get that. We got offered an opportunity that perhaps the board couldn't turn down. Because you can see, you can see the alternative narrative is they say no to the Olympic stadium and they get accused of not having ambition forevermore. So they kind of almost had to take that deal. But ultimately the gamble I don't think has worked and I think we are culturally poorer because of it. And there are a lot of West Ham fans, myself included, that will never be able to truly feel the same way about our football club in that stadium as we did at Upton Park.
- [29:30]
Ayo Akemolere
Benji just spoken about those chants. Rishane, what do you make of them? Is the, Is the situation with Sullivan that bad?
- [29:38]
Rashane Thomas
Yeah, it really is. And it just adds to the frustration that many fans feel right now. Look, there are loads of other chance, chances I can't repeat on this on this podcast. But if you. It goes back to the protest before the Crystal palace game. And that was Masgate Lane, opposite the entrance for the directors and the team coach. And there you really got a strong feel how disconnected a lot of fans feel with West Ham right now. And there was a number of banners and the chant that was very prominent was like, you sold our soul, you sold our soul, and we want our football club back. And the funniest bit about the protest is the team culture as well. And everyone gives a like, hey, come on, lads. Yeah, but it turned out to be the Crystal palace team coach.
- [30:20]
Ayo Akemolere
I remember that one.
- [30:21]
Rashane Thomas
That one went viral.
- [30:22]
Ayo Akemolere
That one went viral.
- [30:23]
Rashane Thomas
It turned out to be the Crystal palace team coach. And then when eventually the West Ham coach arrives, everyone obviously realized, oh, we've got the wrong team coach. And they praise the team. But. But it comes back to what they say, you know, they want the team to do well. Just a regime that they're frustrated with. I can only see it growing numbers, the longer the hierarchy in charge. Reason being, for the Brentford game, which will be Nino's first home game, there's still a plan boycott. So they're still not letting their frustration slide. And look, a lot of fans want the owners to sell up. I can't see that happening anytime soon. But when you do think the boards handling at certain positions, factoring Graham Potter, how they treat previous managers, Optegi, David Moyes. You know, my frustration with West Ham is even when that picture of Nino leaked, no other club operates like this. It's only West Ham. And even before that, when Graham Potter met Tim Steiden, a photo leaked of them in the foyer of a hotel. No other club acts like this and it's almost amateurish. So when you look at stuff like that, you can see why fans get frustrated.
- [31:21]
Ayo Akemolere
Yeah, but how. How do you build on that 2023 Conference League success, then, you know, champions of Europe, first time for the club. Fans are really happy, fans are jubilant. How'd you build on that? Because we are still here. Again, two managers down post the David Moyes era. What is the ambition here?
- [31:39]
Rashane Thomas
Yeah, two years down, he's basically back to square one. Effectively back to square one. And the square one being having to avoid relegation battle. We're having to avoid a relegation battle. And as you touched on two years of move from that. And also, let's not forget, in 2023, the youth team also won the FAU Cup. So that year was arguably one of the best years in the club's modern History and our two years moved from that. We've got young players, obviously Freddie Potts played yesterday, which is good, but we've got young players, talented, not really given a chance, you got a squad that. It's not a squad that's capable of competing at the higher reaches of the league because you've got full crook who's getting on age. You have Callum also getting on age. So they're not the long term options for West Ham. Up front you have a defence in Mavipanos and Max Kilman, who as we saw yesterday, still struggle massively at preventing teams from scoring from corners. So now the long term ambition really and truly, just to stay. To stay. To stay in the Premier League, which it shouldn't have been. It should have been West Ham to be a team that yearly competes a challenge for Europe. That's what it should have been. And look, Benji will probably agree with me with this. There was one year, it was before West Ham won the Conference League, West Ham were in contentiously the finishing of the top four. And there's a January where you look at you thinking, if Sullivan puts his money in here, this could take West Ham to the next level. But where frustrated, getting frustrated, it comes back to earlier. Point is he will look at that and think, we're exceeding already. Why am I going to put more money in it? Like, this is amazing as, as it is. There's no need for me to put more money in it. But had the club spent more, who knows what the, where the club would be right now. Would you agree, Benji?
- [33:11]
Benji Legardo
Yeah, I think so. I mean, problem is Rochelle and I'm old enough to remember three or four seasons before, before then where the same thing happened. And I think this happens with a lot of like, you know, non elite clubs. You, you get to a kind of pinnacle, there's the opportunity to double down and you don't take it. And then there's, there's, there's the flip side, which is you look at, you know, again, back in. This is all the way back in like 90s noughties. When Lee's Leeds United got into the Champions League, they doubled down, tripled down and sort of two seasons later they were in the championship. So you know what, what I actually want from West Ham is just consistency. I don't need us to be in an elite club. I just want to feel like every season we're going to try and push for Europe and in good seasons we're going to get into Europe. I really don't want us down near the relegation zone. That feels like a mad waste of like our resources, our stadium. Love it or hate it, the fact that we're like in the top 20 of the Deloitte Rich list every season, we shouldn't be battling for relegation. Right. A lot of it comes down to the managerial choice, frankly, because what the manager has to do usually is ride the chaos that's going to be happening around them because as discussed, that's kind of West Ham's, you know, that's the way we roll. There's always chaos. And also usually they're going to have to get more than the sum of the parts out of the squad and the team because, you know, we don't invest brilliantly. We, we haven't had a sort of coherent transfer strategy. We clearly don't have like elite level scouting or kind of like data collection for players we might be looking at. So when you get a David Moyes, like, don't, don't look that gift horse in the mouth, as it were. And I hope with Nuno we got the same thing that he can come in and get more than the sum of its parts out of this team. Because frankly, again, last night it was the Jared Bowen savior act all over again. Take that man out of our team. We are like, we are a championship side.
- [35:06]
Ayo Akemolere
Yeah. I mean, this was my thing. And how many times have we seen Jared Bowen come up clutch every time. I mean, what more does a guy have to do? I'm surprised he signed that long term contract, if I'm completely honest with you. But Rashane, where would West Ham be without Jared bowen?
- [35:21]
Rashane Thomas
Probably League 1. That's why they had to chant Bowen again or Le Ole and the fans singing it again last night. Because honestly, it really is always boring to the rescue and you want more of these type of players and I think Somerville could go to that player becomes a match winner, match winner for West Ham. But just to add to the decline from West Ham, two years of move for one of the Compass League. I've gone from looking at flights to Cyprus, looking at fights to Germany. Now I'm looking at how long it takes to get to Rotherham. So that tells you how far, how far west ham have declined IO.
- [35:58]
Benji Legardo
You know, you're talking about the kind of recent history of the football club. Do you want me to tell you what the most important moment in the recent history of this football club was? Was when Jared Bowen met Danny Dyer? Because honestly, I think if he wasn't married into a West Ham family, he knew he would have been off quite some time ago. And now I think the fact that he's like married in and, you know, who knows if that's in the prenup. That'd be quite clever of the old man if he got that in there. He's now the captain of the football club, he's playing for England, he's won a trophy. I think it's possible this might be crazy naive that he might actually be in this for the long run, but if he was to go, my goodness, we'd be in one hell of a pickle.
- [36:39]
Ayo Akemolere
Yeah, we talk about. And you touched on it just then, Benji, in terms of the transfer strategies and stuff like that. And please jump in, Rashane. What do you make of the summer business then? I mean, Callum Wilson, if he's fit, that's a decent enough striker. Carl Walker Peters, I mean, the jury's out. Matthias Fernandez Diouf, which you've mentioned at the top of the podcast as what we saw, that searing run yesterday, is that good recruitment to potentially get some European football, £125 million spent.
- [37:07]
Benji Legardo
Do you know what? It's practical. Our signings are quite practical. We needed some backup on a fullback and Walker Peters actually was one of the few bright sparks in Southampton's season last year, as was Matthias Fernandez. I find it kind of bonkers that you're paying £40 million for a good, promising all rounder who's just been relegated, but that's kind of the way it goes at the moment. Magassa looks like he could be all right, but you know what? There was not that one signing this summer that fans could get really excited about. And we've actually had that a few summers in a row. Having said that one, that wasn't amazingly exciting at the time in Malik Duf could end up being really, really exciting for us. He looks like he could go right to the top of the game.
- [37:50]
Rashane Thomas
Yeah, I certainly agree with that. Malik Duff will be. He'll be 50 million player next summer. I can see him fetching for that much because even yesterday, really. Yeah, honestly, Honestly, honestly, he's 20 years old. He's got tremendous upside, as the Americans love to say, tremendous upside. And look, his contribution to Boland's equalizer was incredible. The way he surged past o' Brien and Tarkovsky was just incredible. And his crossing ability, his crossing ability is probably the best I've seen in a long time from a player. He whips the ball in and your confidence, someone can get on the end of it. So that's hopefully in time for Craig or Wilson could capitalise on that. We saw it with Wilson in the win over Forest. A nice ball into the box from Juford and Wilson got the end of it. So he's definitely been the best signing out of all of them. But one good signing and then you have someone like Hermansen, the goalkeeper who's been dropped because he definitely hasn't shown any signs of being capable of being a long term replacement for Alphonse Arreola. The way you know a West Ham fan listening to podcasts, they'll know a goalkeeper called Roberto. And I remember there's one game, right, where Roberto punched the ball into his own neck. It's a game I will never forget for as long as I live. I'll never forget about that game. And I thought, I'll never see a goalkeeper that formed that much fair again until Hermansen arrived. And it says a lot that this guy was meant to be the first choice goalkeeper, but he's already been dropped, so that's an issue. I mentioned Wilson and Falkirk earlier. Wilson's good, but he's not the Wilson of old. So he's going to be an option for the last half an hour, 20 minutes, it seems. Kyle Walter Peters, I think is good. And there was a long time interest in Kyle Walter Peters when. Even when Moyes was there. But the club already had Tito Carrera, Vladimir Safao, Ben Johnson. So that's why I didn't go ahead and sign him. But out of all of them, Juice, the one that gives the most hope. But I see Benji shaking his head, so. Benji, why are you shaking your head?
- [39:35]
Benji Legardo
It's just that, like, I agree with you, Roshane, like practically, these are decent signings, right? But our fan base, they want a signing to get your blood pumping, right? They want a signing that's going to get, you know that you're retweeting, you're re sharing straight away because you're like, yes, look who West Hamid just signed. That's what it felt like when we first got Kudus. It's what it felt like when we got Pakatar. It's how we felt when we got Chicharito and Arnautovic. You know, that's the sort of signing that gets West Ham's fans blood pumping. And especially when you've just sold Declan Rice and you've sold Kudis one after the other, right? If you're gonna be selling those sort of assets, you better be clearly bringing in someone that's gonna at least emotionally compensate a little bit and they didn't do that this summer.
- [40:17]
Ayo Akemolere
Okay, let's say the rest of them don't get relegated. Fingers crossed they don't. What does that success look like this season is European football or a top eight seven finish? Out of the question right now. Or is it just one day at a time?
- [40:32]
Benji Legardo
Gents, Top half, you certainly had some.
- [40:34]
Rashane Thomas
Strong coffee this morning because absolutely no chance. Absolutely no chance. I reckon just avoid the relegation will be a huge relief.
- [40:44]
Benji Legardo
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Like stay up. That's it. And that's quite a nice job for. For Nuno. Quite a nice remit for him. It's clear what you have to do. It's staying up. Everyone will be quite happy. Top half the table. Miraculous. Give him a ten year contract.
- [41:01]
Rashane Thomas
God. You don't want to be signing people for long term deals. Benji, don't do that. Lord have mercy.
- [41:06]
Ayo Akemolere
Anyway gents, let's leave it there. Rashid, Benji, thanks for your time. And also thank you guys for listening as well. We'll catch you soon. Soon.
- [41:14]
Benji Legardo
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabro and Jay Beal.
- [41:19]
Commercial Narrator
Executive producers are Abby Patterson and Admirehead.
- [41:22]
Benji Legardo
To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify.
- [41:28]
Commercial Narrator
And all the usual places.
- [41:30]
Benji Legardo
You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
- [41:51]
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- [42:53]
Rashane Thomas
How will your decisions today shape the future for generations to come?
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Commercial Narrator
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