Loading summary
Transcript87 lines
- [00:01]
Host/Announcer
As you've probably heard by now, we've teamed up with BetMGM this season. We'll be using BetMGM lines to make all of our picks and we'll have special offers for our listeners each week. If you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code TheAthletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a fifteen hundred dollar first bet offer on your first wager with BetMGM. Here's how it works. Download the BetMGM app and sign up using bonus code TheAthletic. Make your first deposit of at least ten dollars, place bet on any game and claim your voucher for a one year subscription to the Athletic. See betmgm.com for terms. U.S. promotional offers not available in D.C. mississippi, New York, Nevada, Ontario or Puerto Rico gambling problem call 1-800- gambler available in the U.S. call 877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY 467-369 in New York call 1-800-next step in Arizona 1-800-327-5050 Massachusetts 1,800-bets off in Iowa, 1-800-270-7117 for confidential help in Michigan, 1-800-981-0023 in Puerto Rico for first bet offer for new customers only in partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino and Hotel. Don't forget, if you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code TheAthletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a fifteen hundred dollar first bet offer on your first wager.
- [01:15]
Advertiser/Commercial Voice
Popsicles, sprinklers, a cool breeze. Talk about refreshing. You know what else is refreshing this summer? A brand new phone with Verizon. Yep. Get a new phone on any plan with Select Phone, trade in and MyPlan and lock down a low price for three years on any plan with MyPlan. This is a deal for everyone whether you're a new or existing customer. Swing by Verizon today for our best phone deals. 3 year price guarantee applies to then current based monthly rate only. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers.
- [01:45]
Host/Announcer
The problem with group insurance is that healthcare isn't a group decision, it's personal. Group insurance means businesses get one carrier and just a few plan options for the whole company, but that doesn't fit everyone's needs. Now a new coverage option called an Ichra or Ichra allows employees to buy any plan from any carrier. Instead of a one size fits all approach, plan on something personal. Plan on an Ichra learn more@ambetterhealth.com ICRA.
- [02:19]
Ayo Akimwaleri
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimwaleri. Nuno Espirito Santos says he won't walk away from Nottingham Forest, but behind the scenes it's a bit of a mess. So what is going on and is it fixable? Right, for this one, we've got Adam Kraftn. Good to have you with us. Adam.
- [02:40]
Adam Kraftn
Good morning. How are we?
- [02:42]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah, really good. And also the man on Friday who revealed the discontent between Nuno and Nottingham Forest global head of football Adu, it's Danny Taylor. Danny, good to have you with us.
- [02:52]
Danny Taylor
Nice to be here.
- [02:53]
Ayo Akimwaleri
All right, let's move on before we get into this. It's been some weekend for Nottingham Forest. Let's hear how we got here.
- [02:59]
Host/Announcer
I always had a very good relationship with the owner. Last season was very, very, very close. Almost daily basis this season not so well. But I always believe that dialogue and what you say or your opinion is always valid because my concern is the squad and the season that we have ahead of us. But our relations has changed. Not good. It's not good. I think everybody at the club should be together and. But it's not the reality. But the reality is that it's not what it used to be. What it used to be, it used to be was a good disrespectful relationship, but was more based on trust and sharing opinions and now is not so good.
- [03:50]
Danny Taylor
Yeah.
- [03:51]
Ayo Akimwaleri
That was Nuno Espirito Santo on Friday explaining the change in dynamic at Forest. Danny, look, Nottingham Forest, what season they had last season, right, Like. And European football, it's all looking nice. And now we've hit some sort of crisis point. This time of the season, it's quite early. Can you just break down what's happening here and also who's involved?
- [04:10]
Danny Taylor
Yeah, it's a bit of a mess, really. And it's. It's very difficult to. To know where it's going to end up. Nuno's press conference last Friday was obviously quite shocking, really, because especially, I mean, he. He rarely says anything in press conferences. He's very composed. It's very difficult for journalists to get too much out of him. So for him to reveal so much and speak so directly about the owner of all people was. And obviously shocked a lot of people. There is a lot of context to that. On the morning before his press conference, he and all of us woke up stories that basically the owner was considering sacking him. And one part of this whole sort of story is you know, who leaked that story and was it maliciously timed, you know, just to cause him damage just before his own press conference? So, Nuno, you know, he's very methodical. He thinks about exactly what he's going to say in a press conference. So he knew what he was doing. It wasn't just an emotional outpouring. What he didn't do is name the person who. Who he really has an issue with, which is Adu, who, rather astonishingly, has only been there since July 7th. Officially, that's the issue. But that's a big issue because obviously Marinaki's brought Adu in from Arsenal, not just with Forest, but he's the global technical director, so he's taking charge of Olympiacos and their Portuguese club as well, Rio Av. But basically, if it's got to be one of them, the idea that Marinakis is going to dispose of Edu, having sort of anchored himself so sort of firmly with this guy, it's very hard to imagine. So there has to be some sort of peace talks initially, but, I mean, it was described to me last week is that it's gone too far, you know, for that. The relationship's broken. It's beyond fixing. Nuno's comments of the weekend suggested that he thought that that was not the case, but we'll have to see, because if it feels as it stands, it feels difficult to imagine that all these people are going to shake hands and decide to move on, you know, without any lingering bad feeling, you know, and just put this behind. This is football and that rarely happens. But, you know, I hope as someone that's sort of grown up supporting the club, that can happen, but it just feels slightly unlikely. Yeah.
- [06:12]
Ayo Akimwaleri
What do you make of it all, Adam? Nuno airing the laundry so publicly, especially to the media?
- [06:18]
Adam Kraftn
Yeah. As Danny says, it's very unusual. I've been to a couple of Nuno press conferences, and he's on, I would say, the level of Graham Potter in terms of the likeliness of. Actually, he feels like one of those people that actually goes to the press conference with the intent of not saying anything at all. Right. And you come away sometimes being like, well, what was the point of that? So for him to be as direct and frank as he was, it felt incredibly deliberate, very intentional in what he was saying. He clearly wanted the matter to be brought to a head. In some ways, it felt like he'd been advised by someone as well, to perhaps speak in that way, as though I'm not sure who that would be in his life that would Be saying, you know, just answer this question honestly. Even when there was then follow up questions, sometimes you'll see a head coach go say, actually, I think I've answered that now. But he, he kind of carried on. I mean, he seemed to answer whatever he was subsequently asked in that press conference, as far as I could tell. So it's pretty dramatic. It's also pretty dramatic just because of what we know about the owner or the guy who's put the club in the blind trust, at least, Evangelos Marinakis. Because this is, I think we're pretty clear at this point. This is not a guy who most people are gonna win against in confrontation. And he's not someone whose ego is easily bruised or someone who I suppose wants rivals for power at his club. You know, I mean, the amount of posts you'll see from Nauticon forest referring to Mr. Marinakis and Mr. Marinakis actions and his team, they've almost stopped calling themselves Nautican Forest at a certain point. And it seems to be more about him at times. So for Nuno to attempt to rival that and dictate where the club is heading, I think was a pretty brave step.
- [08:11]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Danny, do you reckon someone had a.
- [08:13]
Danny Taylor
Word in his ear?
- [08:14]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Do you reckon someone perhaps said, you know what, use this press conference to air your grievances?
- [08:18]
Danny Taylor
I'm not too sure. I mean, he could have, as Adam says, he could have done the classic manager trick of, you know, I've been too busy, you know, coaching the team to deal with this. When he was initially asked about the sacking report. So he had his own strategy. I mean, he's, I mean, he's very popular with the fans, but he's had a bit of criticism for that from the fans because they think that he went too far. But this is without really understanding the politics of it, you know, like the idea that Nuno, who yesterday after the palace match was talking about the beautiful time he'd had at Forest, you know, the idea that he would put that at Jeopardy with a press conference outburst without there being something serious that's happened in the background. For him to put him in that position where he would come out, he would challenge the owner. It was almost Mourinho esque, you know, in a way, but I just don't think that's credible, that he would, that he would just, you know, something would pop in his head. You know, he's, he's very meticulous. He thinks about what he's doing, he can be emotional, but basically something has made him do this and that something is this huge row. It's not just a tiff or a fallout or working with someone that he doesn't really click with. You know, it's aggressive and it's from day one, you know, something happened in that first meeting. Something was said, whether it was deliberate or not and possibly wasn't even deliberate, that Nuno has taken offense to. And then it's just got worse and worse. And of the two, I think I wrote this in the piece on Friday, Nuno's almost been the aggressor in terms of how he sees Adu and his willingness to kind of have dialogue with him. And it's just a really unhealthy situation. I mean, there was one interesting line from him yesterday when I actually asked him in the press conference afterwards if the three of them needed to kind of, you know, treat it as a priority and sit down and try and hammer this out. And he said, you know, it's not just the three of us. And that got me thinking. There's only a little bit of supposition on my part, but Adu obviously comes very closely aligned with Khirabchin, who's a very powerful football advisor and businessman and also very closely aligned to Marinakis. Dhirabcin is, no doubt about it, has been a big player at Forest in the last this summer. And going even a little bit further back, Forrest signed a couple of his players, but, you know, his influence gets a bit further. So. But you know, he and Adu in particular were very, very close. So there's a lot of politics going on behind the scenes. Can there be peace talks? I think that's. That is the big question. And it's difficult as it stands to imagine that everything's just going to get ironed out. You know, it might, it might for a short while, but then what happens if they lose two or three games in a row or, you know, I just think this is going to keep coming back, coming back, coming back.
- [11:01]
Adam Kraftn
Daniel, I was just going to ask that. If they'd have lost 30 yesterday, do you think he'd have been fired?
- [11:07]
Danny Taylor
I think it would have turned up the heat dramatically. I think they had to avoid losing yesterday. This is the question everyone's been asking me now, do you think he'll be. I cannot put myself in Marinakis mindset here. You can almost sympathise with him a little bit here. You know, when he brought Adu in here, you know, I made this point in the article, Forrest. I've never read a statement that the opening line is football club is proud to announce. They were so kind of like chuffed that they'd taken this, you know, leading executive from Arsenal and they saw it as like a real, like kind of status, kind of something to show off about. And as I say, he's not just at Forest, he's at Olympiacos, he's at Rio Aven. Yeah, it's something that they were so proud to kind of announce. So on the one hand you've got this and you've got Marinakis like really thinking, you know, this has taken months behind them, by the way. This has taken absolutely months for him to persuade Adu to make that break from Arsenal and come to Forest. And then on the. And on the other hand, you've got a popular manager who's taken Forest in to Europe. And it's, as I say, it's literally on day one, that relationship between those. Those two people, which should be the second most important relationship within the club, pretty much has broken. And it's got worse and worse since then. And Marinakis could never have imagined that would be the case. And to be fair to him, he may well have assumed that Nudo would be willing to adapt to this kind of new regime. Again, that comes back to what's happened behind the scenes. What exactly has been said? And that's perhaps the missing link of this sort of jigsaw to complete the story, because we don't know exactly what's been said. And is Nuno overreacting or has something been said that's pretty bad? I'm interested in who leaked that story last Friday. I think that was particularly damaging for Nuno.
- [12:49]
Adam Kraftn
Was that story true that they were considering firing him?
- [12:52]
Danny Taylor
Again, I can't put myself in Marinakis story where he was considering sacking him, but it was certainly true that basically the relationship had gone to pot. And because so far Marinakis has aligned himself with Edu, Adu is a more senior person in the company. There's no getting away away from it. And managers, whether we like it or not, are kind of quickly dispensed with and replacements are found. And you know, Marinakis has done that many times. Adu was seen as someone that's going to take Forest and Olympiacos and basically take them to the high level. So Edu is more important in that world than Nuno. So this is why I see a lot of Forest fans saying, oh, you know, well, get rid of. Easy. Get rid of Edu. You know, he's only been here two minutes, but it's not that simple. You know, Eidu's seen as a bigger piece of it and I can't seem Anakis can decide within 40 odd days that Eidu is doing a bad job. It's not ideal that he and Nuno obviously got off to such a terrible start. But Marinakis so far is aligned with Edu and Nuno has pretty much admitted that by saying that me and Marinakis aren't talking so much. Our relationship has been damaged, we don't talk. The bond is broken, whether it's temporary or going to be on a longer basis.
- [14:04]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah, Danny. I mean a lot of people might be thinking, you know, you remember when Nottingham Forest played Leicester last season, it was 2, 2. And the Marinakis confronts Nuno at the end of the match. There was a fair bit of heat there. But in terms of this situation as well, you know, is there any sense of adieu or Marinakis perspective on what Nuno has said?
- [14:25]
Danny Taylor
No, no, no, no. There's not been anything said from their side. That Leicester game, I mean that was a very, very damaging day for Forest. I mean if it wasn't for that, you know, they were playing one of the worst teams in the Premier League and they were winning and you know, just had a bad 10 minutes and the thing with Tyrone was, was, you know, he should have been substituted. It was pretty obvious he was. And Forest effectively were man down and. And Leicester obviously came back and that if it wasn't for that game, Forest would have been essentially, if it wasn't for that game, you know, the whole Champions League, Dre, I mean, going on the pitch, I mean the story that they came up with was that basically it was out of concern for Tyro's health, you know. Do you believe that it wasn't a good look? Listen, Forest is run differently to other clubs. I think everyone accepts that, even the supporters. That is the sort of thing that if that happened at another club the Forest fans would be like, this is amazing. This is ridiculous. You know, because it happened at Forest, it kind of like it almost got excused in the end. But yeah, it wasn't a good look. But I don't think there's a parallel to be drawn with that and with what's happening now perhaps. I think that was just, you know, classic kind of the owner being very emotional, which he is, as we all know and, and sort of heat of the moment stuff. And that's the sort of thing that happens in Greece. Yeah. And obviously this is. This for a long time was the big thing with the kind of, you know, this regime, you know, the cultural differences of what could, what was the norm in Greece isn't the norm here. And that and by their own admission they would admit this. That took them a long time to kind of grasp. Part of it is that they think that the mentality in Nottingham with the forest fans need to change a bit. They can't believe that if forests lose and play well that the forest fans will sometimes, for example seem relatively okay with that. You know, they want there to be an outcry every time Forrest loses and the standards to be, you know, what's accepted to change because of how it is in Greece. But anyway, to answer your question, I don't personally I don't think the two are related. I can understand why people might look at the two because what happened again in the Leicester game was so unusual. But no, not myself. Okay.
- [16:30]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Right, let's move on because next we'll get into the fallout from Sunday's game with Crystal palace, including that banner.
- [16:43]
Advertiser/Commercial Voice
Popsicles, sprinklers, a cool breeze. Talk about refreshing. You know what else is refreshing this summer? A brand new phone with Verizon. Yep. Get a new phone on any plan with select phone. Trade in and MyPlan and lock down a low price for three years on any plan with MyPlan. This is a deal for everyone whether you're a new or existing customer. Swing by Verizon today for our best phone deals. 3 year price guarantee applies to then current based monthly rate only. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers.
- [17:13]
Host/Announcer
You know what's wild? Most people are still overpaying for car insurance just because it's a pain to switch. That's why there's Jerry. Jerry is the only app that compares.
- [17:22]
Adam Kraftn
Rates from over 50 insurers in minutes.
- [17:25]
Host/Announcer
Minutes and helps you switch fast with no spam calls or hidden fees. Drivers who save with Jerry could save.
- [17:30]
Adam Kraftn
Over $1,300 a year.
- [17:32]
Host/Announcer
Before you renew your car insurance policy. Do yourself a favor, download the Jerry app or head to Jerry AI Acast. Why choose a sleep number Smart bed.
- [17:42]
Danny Taylor
Can I make my site softer?
- [17:43]
Host/Announcer
Can I make my site firmer? Can we sleep cooler? Sleep number does that cools up to.
- [17:48]
Danny Taylor
Eight times faster and lets you choose.
- [17:50]
Host/Announcer
Your ideal comfort on either side. Your sleep number set up it's the sleep number biggest sale of the year all beds on sale up to 50% off the limited edition smart bed plus free premium delivery with any smart bed and adjustable base ends Labor Day. All sleep number Smart beds offer temperature solutions for your best sleep check it out at a sleep number store or sleepnumber.com today.
- [18:19]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Well, it's clear there's a fair bit of a bond between the Nottingham Forest fans singing their praise for Nuno Esperud Santo on Sunday after their 11 draw with Crystal Palace. You were at Selhurst Park. Fans are singing Nuno's name. Danny, how likely is Marinakis to listen to the wishes of the fans, though?
- [18:37]
Danny Taylor
There was. There was certainly an interesting moment after the game when Nuno went over there and I saw the. The clip afterwards where not everyone might have seen it, but Morgan Gibbs White was almost kind of rallying the fans to sort of sing louder and stuff. So I thought that was quite key because he's not only very popular with the fans, Nuno, but he's also incredibly popular players. So I think that will be in Marinakis mind. You know, if they are thinking of moving out a manager, they normally do sort of have a quiet chat with a couple of senior players and, you know, the players are very much behind him and always have been, really. The other thing is that the fans, this season's been the first time they've also been seeing Marinakis name. So there's this incredibly weird dynamic of the fans supporting what the owner does, but they're also supporting what the manager does. And it's kind of almost, you know, nobody wants it to be a popularity contest. When you look online, there's already a bit of a kind of a divide. You know, should they go with what the owner wants or should they stick it with the manager? It's, you know, the one person that's sort of a little bit on the outside of this is Adu because, you know, he hasn't been there long enough to kind of gain the popularity and obviously, as an exec, he's never really going to be in that position to do that, perhaps. But Foster spent a lot of money again this summer, so a lot of fans are also questioning why he's come under fire when they see the recruitment this summer as being positive. But again, that just all comes back to this sort of huge question of, well, Nuno isn't happy, he doesn't like Ado. It's as simple as that. You know, there's hostility, proper, genuine hostility. And how, in a football context, do you remove that?
- [20:12]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Adam? I don't know whether or not Nuno, publicly speaking, has meant that Nottingham Forest have stuck their hand in their pocket, but they've made a heap of transfers. Hutchinson, Ndoi, we've got Douglas, Louise as well. What have you made of their business?
- [20:25]
Adam Kraftn
I'm not sure quite what order it happened in, but I remember was it last week he was sort of talking in a press conference about how they're not ready and they need more bodies. And then it felt like within 24 hours they had a whole new team that had been signed up. And I don't know whether Nuno's comments triggered that, whether it was already in the works. I think they've had a strange summer. I think it's taken them too long. I think maybe part of that is also just because of the fact they didn't know which European competition they were going to be. So probably the revenue and income that they were going to have, whether it was the Conference League or the Europa League, is different. So that may have had an impact, to be fair. So they've maybe had to do their business a bit later. Equally, I think it's been reasonably clear since probably the turn of the year that Forest would be in European competition of some sort. So their targets should have been pretty well established and lined up. I guess Edu maybe comes in slightly towards springtime as well, which maybe delays it slightly in terms of the signings they've made. It's like the thing with Forest is it always feels like such a last season you got to a point where you actually tuned into Forest games and you knew what the team was going to be, which is kind of the first time we've felt like that about them since they started. Whereas now it's like all of a sudden it feels like you've got five or six new players coming in, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I think it is a bit disruptive to was a very settled way of playing a very settled team. I think it's unclear, you know, who is actually deciding which players are signed. Maybe Danny knows more about that at times. With Forest it feels like there's all different influences going on. I mean, is Ross Wilson, the sporting director, still there at the moment? Obviously he's been heavily linked with Newcastle.
- [22:12]
Danny Taylor
I think once the transfer window is finished that Ross will be. There'll be some sort of announcement that he's going to Newcastle. But to be honest, Ross, he does a lot of stuff at Forest and he's a big figure there, but he's not been particularly involved in the recruit. You know, he's not the guy who signs, who picks the next striker. You know, they've got various others who do that. There are a lot of people involved there. It's August is fraught at Forest. Every year it's fraught. And you know, even when they win their opening game, as we know that, as we've seen this season, even when they win their opening game, if they, if they don't win their opening game, it becomes even more fraught. And you know, the last week of the transfer window at Forest is, is a. Well, we've all seen it, haven't we? You know, it's. It's pretty hectic. It's pretty hectic, but it's also, you know, it's high pressure. And I mean, they thrive on that. And this is the, you know, they. They also thrive on a bit of conflict. You know, they, they're not scared of a bit of conflict. They, you know, the times during the Marinakis empire, they've positively encouraged it. This is what they do and how they do it. And the gut good for Forest has outweighed the bad. If you look at the whole eight years of Marinakis time here, the first, okay, the first four years were pretty, pretty lamentable really. There was nothing great to enjoy about them. And Steve Cooper came in. Forrest had been bottom of the championship for 35 days, I think. And then from that point onwards, you know, it's been a bit of a roller coaster at times. But the overall good has been far better than the bad. You know, look at the team, the club we're talking about now in Europe. £100 million worth of players on the bench yesterday, showing ambition, playing great football. Two players in the PFA team of the year. This is a great time to be a Forest fan. And this is why. And people who support the club for a long time will have all sorts of examples about how this has happened in the past as well. This is why it's such a shame that something has come up out of nowhere that basically is in danger of torpedoing what should be a great time. The Europa League draws this Friday. I'm far too all to be excited about it. I'm genuinely excited. You know, I went to Europe in 95 with Frank Clark's team and as a fan, they were the greatest times you could have. I grew up with Brian Cliff's team thinking, you know, we're always going to be a top club. And then you have nearly a quarter of a century in of drift and nothingness. And so this, these times at the moment should be special. So this is the big shame, why this has just come out of nowhere, really. It's been bubbling away since Adu came in.
- [24:44]
Adam Kraftn
But dak, you Say it's been coming from nowhere, but I still think based on what. You know, that Leicester incident at the back end of last season, the way that Forest ended the season, where obviously the form tails off. I know preseason doesn't really matter, but it also does, you know, preseason. I think they scored like one goal in seven games on this podcast, like two weeks ago when we were asked, like, who we a bit worried about, people did think Fox, not because of the form, but because of the ownership. Because of the kind of temperamentalism that we've seen under this ownership, where even when things are going up or going middling to up, there is this kind of capacity for conflicts that can just. Nuno's never felt to me like someone that could be at Forest for five years, for example. I don't know if you think that's unfair slightly.
- [25:35]
Danny Taylor
I agree with the wider point that Forrest's big problem is that they can still be quite immature and volatile. And this is kind of like the classic situation of why I say that. However, the overall picture is great and I haven't got any. I never had any worries for this season. If you look at Forest board, I mean, they've obviously signed four more players, but they had to sign play. I mean, all of a sudden they've got Europe to contend with as well. The problem last, I mean, last season until March, did very well in terms of avoiding injuries. And then they lost Olorena to right back, so they had to switch the left back to play right back. And the whole team was. All of a sudden it was out. That was out of one injury, basically. I do accept that the form at the end of last season won't help Nuno in this. I think they got eight points in the last eight games and some of those games were home against Leicester, Brentford, Everton. It wasn't great. That will count against him, but overall people can see what a great job he's done. It can be volat temperamental. You never know what's around the corner. Once you get used to that.
- [26:42]
Adam Kraftn
There'S.
- [26:42]
Danny Taylor
A lot to like.
- [26:44]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah, Danny, we have to talk about the banner held up by palace fans. It depicted evangelist Marinakis holding a gun to the head of Morgan Gibbs White with the words, Mr. Marinakis is not involved in blackmail, match fixing, drug trafficking or corruption. Marinakis has strongly denied any wrongdoing in relation to these allegations. And I must also say the FA are investigating the banner. Strict rules dictate banners cannot show defamatory political or offensive slogans or contain offensive language. Any indications Danny, of Forrest's reaction to this.
- [27:19]
Danny Taylor
Oh, my God. I mean, they are and will be livid. How many times did they libel him? It was an astonishing banner, and I think Forrest will absolutely complain about it. And there will be people going into overdrive behind the scenes as we're talking, and not just as we're talking, but there was newspapers getting phone calls at halftime yesterday. You know, basically, take this down or you're going to be in a whole world of pain. That was at halftime. I think the very interesting point here is. So Forrest have a fan group called Forza Garibaldi, and whenever they put up a big display, they have to, like, you know, put it through the club, and they work together, and it's all kind of like, meticulously sort of choreographed. And I think Palace's equivalent is a bit more rogue and a little bit less. You know, they kind of see themselves as a bit more kind of, you know, I pass them yesterday. It's kind of, you know, they've got the black T shirts with the ultras on the back, and they kind of. I think they see themselves a bit more kind of Italian. You know, we're a bit cooler than, you know, take. We're a bit more rogue and a bit more, you know, wild and. But did palace know. I think that's the big question. How do you get a banner that size? You know, because at the start, I was watching them think, you know, like, they were. They were working with the stewards about how to get the big display at the start of the game together. So that was one thing. But then how do you get a banner that size into the ground and then hold it? And I didn't see anyone kind of trying to take. Trying to basically go in there and say, you need to get this down. Palace haven't apologized. They haven't distanced themselves from it. They haven't tweeted anything. I don't think they've said anything behind the scenes unless I'm just not privy to those conversations to. Which hasn't helped, because they could have come straight out and say, you know, we disapprove. We're sorry. We. You know, I mean, basically, this is. There's a bit of bad feeling there between the clubs because of the whole Europa League situation.
- [29:10]
Ayo Akimwaleri
That's what I was thinking.
- [29:12]
Danny Taylor
I think that they could have tweeted to say, this is not how we as a club feel, or we as a club want to be seen as behaving and try to do something, because, yeah, that's a Bad one for the relationship at the top levels of the club. I know it's already. There's already a bit of beef, but I mean, some of that beef's a bit cartoonish. You know, Steve Parish was chatting fine with the people from Forest at the game yesterday. It's not open warfare, however. I've never seen that happen before in the Premier League with something that size and just knowing the people involved that underestimate how badly that was received.
- [29:52]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah, I guess from a fan's perspective, Adam, I mean, it's an astonishing banner, but inevitably, I mean, how much is fueled right now between both clubs in terms of one being in the Europa Conference League and the other being graduated to the Europa League?
- [30:05]
Adam Kraftn
Yeah, for sure. I think the palace hierarchy and the way that they kind of handled media over the summer through, whether it was briefings or even on the record interviews, I think they did a pretty good job of making sure it was everyone but themselves being blamed for the situation that they were in. I have some sympathy for them because I think the rules were pretty unfair, to be honest, in terms of the way that they were laid out with the deadline. It's a tricky one. I'm not sure every club in the league would have done what, Forrest, in terms of being as opportunistic and, you know, getting in there as kind of forcefully as they did. However, I can understand why they did it. I think probably many of the Forest fans would expect their club, you know, to try and take that opportunity if it presents themselves. It's also, I think there was a lot of people at the end of last season that felt Forest deserved better, based on the entirety totality of the season, that than a Conference league place based on where they'd been during the season, given the way it just tailed off slightly at the end. So I think that's tricky. I mean, good luck to the FA if they actually start investigating. When the FA say they're investigating, it's basically, this is awkward and this is alleging a lot of different things. I guess it would come under something like, I don't know, unsporting behavior or something like that in the stands or something along those lines, I think as well. Well, fans can't go round libeling. I guess palace fans would argue that their banner was very, very careful in terms of saying that Marinakis was not into xyz. Then you get into a semantics of by saying not, does that really mean not? Right. In terms of the banner, that's probably something the FA have to look into. I think palace themselves. Their fans group is actually, as Danny says, it's one of the more not militant in a they're going to go round attacking people sense, but in a they do the tifos, they do the banners, they do the signs. You know, when Newcastle came just after the Saudi takeover a couple of years ago, they had a very, very graphic image as well and I think palace see that as part of their strength at Selhurst Park. So I think they will be reluctant to go against their own fans, which makes for an awkward situation. I imagine the people who probably end up taking the brunt of this in terms of the phone calls are the Premier League and the fans who will probably be getting calls from Forest saying make sure this never ever happens again.
- [32:32]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Okay, next let's get back to Nuno Espirito Santo and ask what happens next.
- [32:43]
Host/Announcer
As you've probably heard by now, we've teamed up with BetMGM this season. We'll be using BetMGM lines to make all of our picks and we'll have special offers for our listeners each week. If you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code TheAthletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a 1500 dollar first bet offer on your first wager with BetMGM. Here's how it works. Download the BetMGM app and sign up using bonus code TheAthletic. Make your first deposit of at least $10. Place your first bet on any game and claim your voucher for a one year subscription to the Athletic. Athletic C betmgm.com for terms U.S. promotional offers not available in D.C. mississippi, New York, Nevada, Ontario or Puerto Rico. Gambling problem call 1-800- gambler available in the U.S. call 877-8-HOPE NY or text hopeny467-369 In New York, call 1-800-next step in Arizona, 1-800-327-5050 Massachusetts 1-800-bets off in Iowa, 1-800-270-7117 for confidential help in Michigan, 1-800-981-0023 In Puerto Rico, first bet offer for new customers only in partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino and Hotel. Don't forget yet. If you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code TheAthletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a fifteen hundred dollar first bet offer on your first wager.
- [33:57]
Advertiser/Commercial Voice
Aging is a natural process, as we all know, and I for one don't mind embracing it But I will tell you one part of aging that I don't care for. It's the symptoms that stem from changing hormones, especially as you get older to perimenopause and menopause. That's why we want to tell you about Happy Mammoth's Hormone Heart Harmony. Happy Mammoth, the company that created Hormone Harmony, is dedicated to making women's lives easier. And that means using only science backed ingredients that have been proven to work for women. They make no compromise when it comes to quality and it shows for a limited time you can get 15 off on your entire first order@happy mammoth.com just use the code Happy Me at checkout.
- [34:32]
Danny Taylor
Hey it's Maya and Sim from the Girls that Invest podcast. If you are an IT or security pro, you know managing devices, identities and applications can feel overwhelming and honestly risky. That's where Trelica by1Password comes in. It helps conquer SaaS, sprawl and shadow it by discovering every app your team uses, managed or not. With pre built app profiles, you can assess risk, manage access and even optimize your software spend. Plus it simplifies onboarding, offboarding and compliance, all while cutting costs by eliminating unused licenses. Take the first step to better security for your team. Learn more at1pass.com Special offer.
- [35:23]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Well Danny, this is the one, really. I mean you sort of alluded to it at the top of the podcast, feeling that this situation has got to a point where we're not quite sure where it might go. But is there a way back? Do you know what might be happening next?
- [35:36]
Danny Taylor
I suppose you could call them peace talks, although whether they'll end up being peace we'll have to see, won't we? But Nuno basically made that point yesterday and he said that he was sure that it could be resolved again. He would have thought about what he was going to say and there's a slight part in my cynical journalistic mind of wondering whether he was almost saying that to kind of little bit of PR for himself just to kind of like make it seem that, you know, make it, make it obvious that he's willing for there to be a reconciliation to make the fans know that. I'd like to think there can be just for the reasons I outlined earlier. Really. I just, it's, I'm not so sure that in reality that they can just shake hands when it's been so hostile. It's, you know, like I say, this isn't just a, this isn't a fallout over. Well, I like this fallback and you like that fallback and you know, I saw, you know, I've seen some, some reports. And then some Forest fans have latched onto it about it being about Adama Triora. You know, it's true. You know, Nuno wanted him. This isn't about Triore, you know, it's a much, much bigger thing than that. They went to Fulham. Fulham actually asked for money that Forest weren't willing to spend. They started looking at other options. They always look, you know, they've always got. For every. Every position in the team, they've always got eight, between eight and 12 options. You know, I'd love to give you a clear answer about, you know, definitively. He will stay or he won't stay. I think this will limp along. There are some similarities here between the same case that happened with Aitor Karanku, which was a few years ago, he too fell out with someone in the hierarchy. In his case, it was the chief executive, Yannis Svrantos, who still a director, but he's based in Greece now. And Vorensos and Carranka, just. Their relationship just imploded and that kind of just limped along for about six weeks or so. And then in the end, Carranka sort of, you know, they termed it, that he'd asked to be released from his contract. That was with Forrest, again, in a good position. You know, that was one place outside the playoffs in the championship. And it was all because of a relationship breakdown in the. In the background. And at that time, Marinakis wasn't so hands on. So by the time he flew in to kind of like, you know, see what the situation was, Carranka's mind was made up. You know, he just. He decided enough was enough. And this is a man, by the way, you know, former Real Madrid player. You know, he's used to the politics at the Bernabeu, but he was worn down by it at Forest. You know, his wife had stopped going to games because of the atmosphere and stuff. So, you know, it can be a challenging position. You know, Steve. All sorts of stories of when Steve Cooper was there. You know, I mean, this isn't a particularly new story, but I remember when the Premier League released the fixtures in Steve Cooper's last season, Forrest did a little video to kind of like. Just to kind of like get a bit of excitement among the fans. You know, it's a little kind of like montage of clips from the previous season. Just the sort of thing that every website does, every football club website does, and put on their social media. And then all of a sudden it was sort of mysteriously removed. And that was because at the top of the club they'd seen it and they didn't like the fact that it showed Steve Cooper three or four times. You know, they didn't think the manager should get that kind of coverage and that element of praise. And so basically this harmless clip that the fans had enjoyed watching to coincide with Fixed yout release just disappeared. So yeah, it can be challenging. On the flip side, the owner will back the manager and he'll back the club. And this is partly why the fans really like him. Because he. Even if you don't support the club, you might see it differently. But because he's willing to go to war for Forest, the fans will go to war for him. You know, it's that kind of that classic sort of siege mentality, you know, Marinek is well back the manager, you know, at the end of last season he said to Nuno, what do you want? And Nuno said, this is again, it's a bit weird that we're talking about. Nune told him he wanted two teams now he needed two, two lots of 11. Because last season we only had 11, really. And then we had like two or three substitutes and then we had people filling in who really weren't good enough. So Marinakis has backed him again, like huge outlay of money. So he must be incredibly frustrated that having spent all this, he's now being challenged by the manager. The two people that really should be working closely together have just completely blown their relationship apart and now he's got a decision to.
- [39:49]
Adam Kraftn
One thing I was going to ask Danny is there's been speculation about Ange Postecoglou potentially going to Forest. Do you think Forest are at a stage where they're already thinking about who the next coach could be?
- [40:02]
Danny Taylor
You know how it works that if you're a well run club, you're always got your kind of list of managers who you would bring in.
- [40:07]
Adam Kraftn
And if you're a badly run club, you've always got your list of managers.
- [40:11]
Danny Taylor
Yeah, yeah. It's almost not unusual. You know, I sometimes think. I'm not sure every supporter gets that, you know, like having those plans in place. So there's always, always discussion, you know, politics and discussions going on behind the scenes. You know, there's. It was the journalists in Italy who mentioned Ange first, who had done the stories about that Nuno's position is in doubt and that was obviously leaked by someone with a reason, presumably. So yeah, I would treat it to you. I mean Pastor Coglu Is someone he's one of on their list of managers they speak to regularly. I remember when Forrest were promoted and Steve Cooper went over to Greece, they would quite often do this and invite the manager over in the summer. And Ange was there sitting around the pool. You know, there's a relationship there. Anz did an interview recently, or, Sorry, while he was at Tottenham and he's talking about Marinakis as the president. You know, he's kind of using the language that a manager would use. But there were others. You know, they love Marco Silva. Marco Silva was Olympiacos manager when they were there. You know, there's still relationship there. They still talk to Marco Silva in a very friendly way behind the scenes. But it was going to be either Nuno or Oliver Glasner for the job. And Nuno got it. Oliver Glasner's kind of not very happy at Palace. I mean, part of my wicked evil side would find it quite amusing if Steve Parrish suddenly got an email on his desk requesting permission to speak to Oliver Glassner. I mean, Forest is an attractive proposition, really, you know. Yes. You know, we've talked about it being volatile and a bit kind of.
- [41:36]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah, it doesn't sound like an easy place to work. Come on, Danny.
- [41:40]
Danny Taylor
It's not. But managers, they see the ambition, they see the fact that the owner's backing them. And I still think it's an attractive place to work. You know, it's kind of. It's not perf, but it's an upwardly mobile football club for the time being.
- [41:52]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Okay, let's close this down. Adam, the final word goes to you. It's time for the final whistle. You have a minute to tell us what has stood out to you from the world of football this week. When you hear the referee's whistle, you know you've got to stop. All right, all right, I'll give you a countdown. 3, 2, 1. Off you go, sir.
- [42:12]
Adam Kraftn
We've gone two weeks and we've not mentioned referees yet, so we're going to go straight to referees now. So there's this new thing where they're obsessing over holding in the box, which is fine, right? Like, if you're going to start doing that, my issue is they're not looking at pushing in the box. So Arsenal's opening goal against Leeds, little push on Pascal Stripe, which meant that Timber was able to score the goal. And then again yesterday, Lenny Yoro does the same, which means Man United score a goal. But they're then obsessing over the holding in the box. Which gives Man United a penalty earlier in the game. So my view is you either let the penalty box be the UFC zone that it has been for 15, 20 years in any case, and let all this stuff go, or you start actually looking at all of it, but you can't do some of it and none of it because then you're going to annoy fans along the way.
- [43:01]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Job done.
- [43:02]
Danny Taylor
Boom.
- [43:02]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Well done. Pgmol Howard Webb. Listen to the man. He has spoken. All right, gents, let's leave it there. Danny, Adam, thank you so much for your time and also thank you guys for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.
- [43:16]
Danny Taylor
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast.
- [43:18]
Host/Announcer
The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroot and Jay Beal. The executive producer was Ailey Moorhead.
- [43:23]
Danny Taylor
To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places.
- [43:29]
Host/Announcer
The Athletic FC podcast is an athletic media company production. I can't believe they're having a gender reveal for their dog. No, no, no, this is a breed reveal.
- [43:51]
Danny Taylor
Oh.
- [43:52]
Host/Announcer
So yeah, they're finding out the breed.
- [43:55]
Danny Taylor
Of the puppy they're rescuing so they.
- [43:56]
Host/Announcer
Could just be spending all their money on like pet insurance. Instead we got lemonade for Roscoe and it covered vaccines, microchipping. We saved 90% on vet bills.
- [44:05]
Adam Kraftn
Oh, here we go.
- [44:09]
Host/Announcer
What do you think beige confetti means? I don't know that we'll never get this Saturday back. Get a quote for any breed@lemonade.com pet comcast business high five hotline I signed my business up for the five year price lock guarantee and I can't stop high fiving people.
- [44:24]
Danny Taylor
That's perfectly natural when you sign up for gig speed, Internet and advanced security. Locked in at a great rate for five years.
- [44:30]
Host/Announcer
Really?
- [44:31]
Adam Kraftn
That's great news.
- [44:32]
Danny Taylor
High five everybody.
- [44:33]
Host/Announcer
The Comcast business 5 year price lock.
- [44:35]
Adam Kraftn
Guarantee is back, but only for a limited time.
- [44:37]
Danny Taylor
Sign up today ends 92125 for new customers with qualifying bundle.
- [44:42]
Advertiser/Commercial Voice
Current customer eligibility varies by service and area. Guaranteed rate applies to monthly service charge excluding taxes and fees.
- [44:46]
Danny Taylor
Other restrictions apply.
- [44:48]
Advertiser/Commercial Voice
As a logistics leader, you need more than a provider, you need a partner. Uber Freight's AI led enterprise suite of solutions is backed by over two decades of experience and logistics data, innovative tech and expert teams. Streamline your supply chain with Uber Freight to maximize savings, visibility and efficiency. Discover True partnership@uberfreight.com Solutions and elevate your logistics strategy today.