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- [00:01]
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- [01:20]
Raj Panjabi
Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.
- [01:22]
Noah Michelson
And I'm Noah Michelson, also from HuffPost.
- [01:25]
Raj Panjabi
And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [01:32]
Noah Michelson
Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.
- [01:40]
Raj Panjabi
And we're talking like legit credible experts.
- [01:42]
Noah Michelson
Doctors, PhDs all around superheroes from Huckpost and Acast Studios. Check out Am I Doing It Wrong? Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:51]
Aura Ad
This podcast is brought to you by Aura. By the time you hear about a data breach, your information has already been exposed for months. On average, companies take 277 days to report a breach. That's nine months where hackers have access to your personal data. That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Aura is an all in one digital safety solution that monitors the dark web for your phone number, email and Social Security number, sending real time alerts if your info is found, it also includes a vpn, password manager and data broker removal to help keep you safe for a limited time. Aura is offering a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked. All for free@aura.com safety that's aura.com safety to sign up and protect your loved ones. That's a u r a.com safety terms apply. Check the site for details.
- [02:47]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [02:57]
Matt Davis Adams
Hello, I'm Matt Davis Adams. Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast. Coming up, Thomas Tuchel's first England selection has raised a few eyebrows. So is his first squad a step forward to winning the World cup or a step back? Joining me to discuss that and more are the Athletic's own Jackpit Brook. Hey Jack.
- [03:20]
Jack Pitbrook
Hey, Matt.
- [03:21]
Matt Davis Adams
And Tim Spears is with us as well. Guten Tag, Tim.
- [03:24]
Tim Spears
Ah V Gates.
- [03:26]
Matt Davis Adams
That's the end of my German knowledge.
- [03:28]
Tim Spears
Yep, same here, I'm afraid.
- [03:30]
Matt Davis Adams
Right, it is the March international break. Thomas Duchel's first games in charge of England come against Albania on Friday and Latvia on Monday. Jack, so we know his first squad. Has he given much of an indication as to what he wants his England team to look like?
- [03:45]
Jack Pitbrook
Yeah, in general terms. So he's talked a lot about physicality, a lot about pressing a lot about winning the ball back in the opposite opposition half, having the ball in the opposition half, what he kind of calls a sort of Premier League style, you know, more, more dynamic and aggressive and playing a higher rhythm than what we've seen from England in the past. He hasn't talked a lot about the sort of specific decisions he will make, what combination of players will he go for, particularly in attacking positions. But yeah, in general he has set out his stall about the sort of identity of the team.
- [04:18]
Matt Davis Adams
He wants a lot of buzz earlier in the week when he did an interview with ITV and said England were afraid of defeat at Euro 2024.
- [04:26]
Noah Michelson
They were more afraid to drop out of the tournament, in my observation, than having the excitement and hunger to win it.
- [04:35]
Matt Davis Adams
What did you make of those comments, Tim? Some people seen it as a shot at Gareth Southgate.
- [04:39]
Tim Spears
Yeah, fascinating and very surprising. It's kind of like, wow, like he's really gone there. Know he came in with his sort of initial press conferences and was very respectful of Southgate and Lee Carley to criticize a team that wasn't his before he's even taken charge of a match. You know, he's very bold. It's not like he can sort of point to his recent record With England, I guess it's in keeping with his attitude in general. You know, there's, there's chutzpah there, you would say. But then again, I agree with everything he said. You know, England getting to the final, the Euro shouldn't mask that they were really, really poor for a lot of the tournament. You know, those Denmark, Slovenia and Slovakia games are sort of etched in our memories for all the wrong reasons. You know, they weren't the second best team at the tournament in my opinion. They did look inhibited, they did lack freedom. You know, Southgate I'm sure would concede that as well. He wanted more, more freedom from his team, but for whatever reason he couldn't get it out of them. I think the most, the most important thing is that the players are probably on board with that. I mean Kane backing the, sort of backing it up certainly on the freedom comment in an interview that he's done is important, I think. But yeah, I think, I think you could see this, that the players probably wanted more either from the manager or from themselves as a collective. I think you could see it even before the Euros really with players like Kane and Bellingham and Saka and Rice all becoming sort of top, top players in European football and moving to clubs like Real Madrid and Bayern Munich and Rice going up to Arsenal. I think they probably were working for sort of, you know, attack minded, progressive managers and then coming to international duty and finding quite a different experience, which was probably quite frustrating. So very surprising. Like I said before, he's even taken charge of a game. But, but it's in keeping with, with Tuchel's personality.
- [06:20]
Jack Pitbrook
So I went to Tottenham, Tottenham training ground where England did their media duties yesterday. And I thought that was the most, the most interesting thing to emerge in the day by far. Just because it would have been so easy for Tuchel to say England had a great Euros, they got to the final, well done them, they got so close. Didn't Gareth do a great job? But he didn't say that at all. Like he, he has said like Gareth has did do a good job in general. But for him to be so specifically critical of the Euros campaign, I think it sets his stall out very, very clearly. And it's also something that he said to the players as well. And you know, clearly he's had a lot of conversations with the players since he officially became manager on the 1st of January. And while he didn't say yesterday that this is what the players had told him about the Euros, he said it was just his own. This was just his own opinion. I don't think it would be too much of a surprise if this was the feedback that he had got from the players, that the players had conveyed to him that the feeling wasn't right in the Euros because everybody could tell at the time that the feeling was off in the Euros. Even though England kept on going through, they played very badly almost the whole. For almost the entire tournament and they needed those, you know, what, Last minute equalizer against Slovakia, late equalizer and penalties against Switzerland, last minute winner against Harlem, like they were not a good team at all. And I think Tuchel has been very bold to kind of see through the fact they got to the final and be honest in his appraisal about why they played badly.
- [07:56]
Matt Davis Adams
Jack, you've got a piece up on the Athletic with quotes from Morgan Rodgers talking about Tuchel's aura. I mean, that was certainly something that I felt very strongly in the time I spent with him, working with him at Chelsea. He sort of makes you stand up on your tiptoes as soon as he approaches you. He's a big imposing fellow as well, isn't he? Is that that kind of different character, something that England lacked under Gareth Southgate without wishing to downgrade what he did? I mean, they are quite different men, aren't they? On the surface it would appear.
- [08:26]
Jack Pitbrook
Yeah, they are very different men. I think that, I mean, I think that what Southgate did with England was unbelievably good over the course of his eight years in charge. But I think Tuchel is just different. Like Tuchel is a absolutely top of the range, world class, elite manager. This is a gu guy who's managed some of the biggest teams in the world. He's won the Champions League. He's done pretty well, I think, at every club that he's been in. He's managed some of the best players in the world. And he just, he has this, as Roger said, he kind of radiates this sort of charisma, intelligence. He's incred. Clearly incredibly intelligent, very candid, I think. Very ruthless, very, very engaging company. You could listen to him talk about anything. Whereas I often felt like with Southgate, like the job meant so much to Southgate that it kind of, particularly by the end, it sort of weighed quite heavily on him, I think. Like he was so desperate to turn England into, into winners and he got so, you know, he's got them. He did better than anybody had done for a lifetime before him. But he, it just kind of meant so much to him. And I think by the, particularly by the time the last Euros he sort of wasn't quite himself and he was sort of second guessing his own decisions a bit. And I think that's why we got the sort of not very good team performance that Tuchel was talking about. Whereas Tuchel just has this, yeah, this kind of unique energy. There's not really anyone, I can't really think of a good comparison because even amongst the sort of Guardiola Klopp, Conte Arteta type managers like Tuchel is the kind sort of stands slightly alone I think maybe most similar to Klopp. But yeah, he is a hugely, hugely impressive guy. And not saying the Southgate isn't but they kind of carry themselves differently.
- [10:12]
Matt Davis Adams
And Tim Jack uses words there like candid and ruthless. The length of Tuchel's contract means that he can be those things. Right. He doesn't have to worry about offending people. He's not there to make friends. He's got a short term deal. He's very unlikely to go beyond the next World cup you would think and therefore there's not time for him to be tiptoeing around people and trying not to upset people. He just needs to hit the ground running in whatever way that he thinks is best to do that.
- [10:37]
Tim Spears
Yeah, I mean I think you'd be hard pressed to sort of remember a manager coming in at a better time, an England manager coming in at a better time in terms of, you know, the team have just done really well in a tournament. They've got a really good group of players. You know, they've got, they're mostly pretty young other than sort of, I guess Hodl coming in after venables in like 96. It's, it's usually a manager coming in after a bad or disastrous Euros or World cup and the manager has so much to do to sort of change the culture and change the squad and change everything but he doesn't have to change a huge amount. I don't think you know from where England have come from with €2 finals, you know, a strong World cup in 2022 got probably the best sort of group of attacking players England have had for some time. You know, I watched an England team in Germany that, that yeah, we're good enough to reach the latter stage of the tournament but still ready for a new manager. I think one, one to sort of put them more on the front foot, more of a positive mindset, proactive substitutions rather than reactive. And yeah, Jack used the word ruthless. I think, I think that's really important probably something that Southgate wasn't in return. I mean, you mentioned about upsetting people. That would be my concern with Tuchel in terms of man management and maybe falling out with the players. And you Hope, I guess 15 months just isn't long enough for that to sort of sink in. But yeah, it's almost a unique sort of set of circumstances in England's history where they're in a really good place. They just need someone, a top level manager to unlock certain things, mostly tactically. And I think, you know, there's a decent chance that he's the man to do that.
- [12:11]
Matt Davis Adams
And in terms of his man management, Jack, he's been in place for over three months now and that seems to have been a big focus for him during this period.
- [12:21]
Jack Pitbrook
Yeah, he's spoken a lot about how the sort of the word he uses brotherhood. Like he wants to create a really strong unity, a really strong bond between the England players. He wants to see them communicating better. I think that is probably why he brought back Jordan Henderson. Why, like Carl Walker's in the squad. I don't think it'll be too long before we see Jack Greish as well if he's, you know, if he gets back into form. I think the players, I think Tushel seems to understand there's some players who have a really good benefit to the squad in terms of that unity. And also he wants them to be in touch with each other. He wants to kind of create this energy, create this fire that he doesn't have to tend because it, the players are doing that themselves. So, yeah, it's not, it's not just about kind of arm around the shoulder man management. It's also, it's also about sort of creating a unified group which can then sort of, can then look after itself.
- [13:13]
Matt Davis Adams
It being the England job. Timmy's had to defend himself against some accusations from certain sections of the media that he hasn't been the most visible presence in stadiums. He says he prefers to watch football from home and said, I need a little bit of trust from you that you trust me to do the job at a high intensity and in the best way possible. He's probably earned that trust, hasn't he, given the achievements he's. He's already earned in his managerial career.
- [13:38]
Tim Spears
Crikey, yeah. You know, domestic titles, domestic cups, Champions League, club, World Cup. I mean, I think other than, other than the Fabio Capello, he's got to be, you know, the most decorated manager that England have ever hired. And Tuchel's got the advantage over Capello of managing in England before which I think is really important. So yeah, I think any, any, any manager bar one or two, there's no need to name here, any England manager sort of deserves to start with that trust. I think the watching matches thing, I mean, personally I don't think you can beat watching games in, in person. You know, you can spot so much more. You don't have to put up with the, you know, the dreadful standard of English commentators. Present company exclusive Matt obviously. But yeah, he's obviously got a much bigger TV than me, I think. So you can probably still see the whole pitch.
- [14:27]
Matt Davis Adams
All right, let's take a little break here. When we come back, we're going to talk a bit of squad selection and more on tactics under Tuko.
- [14:40]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
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- [15:42]
Raj Panjabi
Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.
- [15:45]
Noah Michelson
And I'm Noah Michaelson, also from HuffPost.
- [15:47]
Raj Panjabi
And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [15:54]
Noah Michelson
Each week on the podcast podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.
- [16:02]
Raj Panjabi
And we're talking like legit credible experts.
- [16:05]
Noah Michelson
Doctors, PhDs all around superheroes from HuffPost and Acast Studios. Check out Am I Doing It Wrong? Wherever you get your podcasts, this podcast.
- [16:14]
Aura Ad
Is brought to you by Aura. By the time you hear about a data breach, your information has already been exposed for months. On average, companies take 277 days to report a breach. That's nine months where hackers have access to your personal data. That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Aura is an all in one digital safety solution that monitors the dark web for your phone number, email and Social Security number, sending real time alerts if your info is found. It also includes a vpn, password manager and data broker removal to help keep you safe for a limited time. Aura is offering a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked. All for free@aura.com safety. That's Aura.com safety to sign up and print protect your loved ones. That's a u r a.com safety terms apply. Check the site for details.
- [17:12]
Matt Davis Adams
So Jack, you mentioned that there's been an emphasis on physicality and pressing. Typical within club football, but unusual in the international game. Right. And also something that's going to be pretty difficult to do in a North American summer. You want to see glimpses of the Premier League in the national team. Do you think he's going to be able to do that? He's going to have to utilize the whole squad during games?
- [17:33]
Jack Pitbrook
I think this is the most interesting question really because Tuchel's obviously he's aiming to do something which is not common in international football. Like it's not. Teams don't really play that way. Teams don't play the sort of aggressive, pressing game in international football that they do that the players play in club football. And Tuchel's view seems to be, well, why not? Like, why can't we just play like a club team? Why can't, you know, I think in his squad announcement press conference he said it's just common sense that these guys play high pressing with their club. I want them to do that with England. So that's his, that's his goal. I think there's, I'm not confident about his ability to make it happen for a few reasons. One is that, you know, there must be a reason why international teams don't press, right? Like it can't just be because the managers are cowards. It must be because there's sort of structural reasons there. Namely the players are exhausted by the time they get to the summer tournament because they played 60 games for their clubs. On top of that, the tournament's played in 30 plus degree heat, which will be obviously the case next summer's World Cup. So I don't know how, I don't know how he gets around that. Does he do it with, does he. Does He. Is it just to do with. Well, is it to do with this? Like the type of players that he takes is. I, I don't know, but I think this is going to be. To me, this is so fascinating because, like, the reason that Southgate played the way they did is because I think Southgate took that analysis that people had of what it takes to be successful in international football. For example, you know, like the Portugal 2016 team, the France 2018 team, like, keep it very cautious, keep it safe. And he turned, he took that. For English players, that's the origin of gasball, basically. But Tuchel wants to do it differently. But I think let's kind of wait and see how well that works.
- [19:24]
Matt Davis Adams
What do you think, Tim? I guess on the one hand it's kind of positive because you're not asking players to reinvent the wheel, but then we're assuming that England do qualify for the World cup here. They're going to be going into this tournament after a full season, but for a lot of them in the club World cup as well. So is it even going to be possible to do this next summer?
- [19:42]
Tim Spears
I mean, I had the pleasure of following Austria at the Euros and they were very intense and high pressing and fantastic to watch. You know, they sort of beat Poland and the Netherlands, scoring three goals apiece. Very high octane. Under Ralph Rangnick, of course, who, you know, Tuchel is a Rangnick disciple. I think Rangnick gave him his first coaching job. So you can see, you can absolutely see why he wants to do it. I want to see it. But yeah, there are issues, you know, I mean, Harry Kane being one, he's not known for his sort of high pressure. He'll be 33 in 2026. And yeah, the heat in the US and Mexico, I mean, you hear any player talking about the World cup there in 94 in the US or 86 in Mexico and they'll say the conditions are, are absolutely stifling, you know, up to sort of 40 degrees heat. So that high intensity, it's just not going to happen. A watered down version might work, but an issue that Tuchel's going to have that every England manager seems to have, is that they're going to qualify for the World Cup. There's no problem there. They haven't lost a qualifier, I think since 2009, as in a live qualifier. You know, it's been 16 years, but there's no, there's no decent competitive games in there, really, against high class opposition. He's only going to be able to sort of try against high class opposition position in friendlies. So I guess I would worry that, yeah, he might get some high pressing at Wembley in November, but when it comes to their first big competitive games against top level opponents in the World cup, that it's going to be very, very different to what he's been practicing for the sort of previous 15 months. But, but these, these players are tactically adept and he's a, he's a tactically adept manager. So I'm sure there'll be some kind of version that they can, that they can make work.
- [21:20]
Matt Davis Adams
Looking forward to seeing if he goes full Jack Charlton USA 94 in a bid to hydrate his players on the touchline. Jack, finally on this, on this high pressing thing, the kind of obvious statement to make when you look at the squad is are you going to get that from Kyle Walker and Jordan Henderson, but are we expecting them to stick around for the long term or are they just kind of first squad picks to help him ease the transition?
- [21:43]
Jack Pitbrook
My guess is that Henderson, Henderson will be here until the World cup because he's so important behind the scenes. I think England, I think Southgate dropping him, Southgate dropping him for the world, for the Euros last season was a bad decision and I think one that England really paid for in terms of the sort of atmosphere in the camp. So I was just, I think if Henderson's in now, he might as well, you might as well keep him for the World Cup. He's not, I don't think he's there primarily to play. This is my opinion. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if he gets some minutes tonight or Monday night. Walker probably in the same boat, although maybe not quite so much. I think he will be there. So, yeah, I think it's important to note that like I think that some of the selections are not just with the football in mind, they're also with this kind of team spirit, unity thing that he's talking about and whereas some of the other players are obviously brought in to play his style of play.
- [22:37]
Tim Spears
Jack. But can I just ask, when it comes to actually selecting that squad for the World cup and it comes down to what it'd be, 26 players and you've got someone like Adam Wharton or Archie Gray or Elliot Anderson, you know, push it, do you really think he'll, he'll take Henderson as like a glorified mascot?
- [22:54]
Jack Pitbrook
Yeah, I do. I think he will. He did say last squad announcement that for a World cup squad he would want the squad almost broken down into different groups. You've Got some players who are like there to start games, some players who are there to finish games. And I can't remember the exact quote, but I took it, I took it that he thought there would be a few, there would be space for a player or two in the squad who would be there largely because they're, you know, they're good tourists and they're popular and also the leadership, like, like, I mean Henderson's not there because he's, I'm not saying Henderson there because he's a nice guy. I'm saying he's there because he's had an amazing career from club or country. He was vice captain during England's most successful spell in modern history and he brings a real kind of balance and really balance the group, helps the group and helps improve individual players. Like Tuchel said this as well regarding Henderson, like he will, you can't just take 20 year old midfielders, but having Henderson there will improve the young midfielders that you do take. So I think it kind of makes sense. And also I can't get past this. I think Southgate, Southgate dropping Henderson, sterling, Rashford, Maguire, Mount Phillips, Grealish, etc. All of whom have been really important to him in Euro 2020 and Qatar World Cup. Southgate didn't take all those players I listed. Southgate dropped them all for Euro 2024 to replace them with young players he didn't know what to do with. And I think that was really, really bad for England on and off the pitch. And I'm sure Turchill doesn't want to mistake.
- [24:26]
Matt Davis Adams
Be interesting to see whether he uses Henderson as a kind of Connor Cody style figure then, or maybe even a David Beckham 2010 non playing member.
- [24:35]
Tim Spears
Well, that, that's the perfect solution. You know. No, no offense to Henderson, but if he retires and becomes a coach then they can just take him and then, and then Adam Wharton can get picked.
- [24:49]
Raj Panjabi
Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.
- [24:51]
Noah Michelson
And I'm Noah Michaelson, also from HuffPost.
- [24:53]
Raj Panjabi
And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [25:00]
Noah Michelson
Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.
- [25:08]
Raj Panjabi
And we're talking like legit, credible experts.
- [25:11]
Noah Michelson
Doctors, PhDs all around superheroes from HuffPost and Acast Studios. Check out Am I Doing It Wrong? Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [25:20]
Aura Ad
Find your amex card and earn rewards on everyday purchases like points on groceries. See if you pre qualify with no impact on your credit score. Learn more about our offers@americanexpress.com, your credit score may be impacted if you submit an application. Terms Apply this podcast is brought to you by Aura. By the time you hear about a data breach, your information has already been exposed for months. On average, companies take 277 days to report a breach. That's nine months where hackers have access to your personal data. That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Aura is an all in one digital safety solution that monitors the dark web for your phone number, email and Social Security number, sending real time alerts if your info is found. It also includes a vpn, password manager and data broker removal to help keep you safe for a limited time. Aura is offering a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked. All for free@aura.com safety. That's Aura.com safety to sign up and protect your loved ones. That's a u r a.com safety terms apply. Check the site for details.
- [26:33]
Matt Davis Adams
And what about the tactics then? Jack, Are we thinking back 4? Back 5? He's been pretty flexible, hasn't he, throughout his career?
- [26:41]
Jack Pitbrook
Yeah. So again, this is something we don't, we don't know the answer to at the moment. My, my suspicion is that he will go for about four because one thing that he has said this week is, you know, this has got to be a crash course. Like you can't, there's not enough time to teach the players a new way of playing. And he said was the effect of he needs to take how the players play for their clubs and then synthesize it into something which is easy for them to understand. So I, my suspicion would be it will be about four. I'm sure he would like the option to go to about three maybe at some point, but I think it'll be a four this time.
- [27:16]
Matt Davis Adams
And if we look at a couple of individuals, Tim, Marcus Rashford's back in the squad. I think this is his international career being revitalized. You expected him to feature much in these next two games?
- [27:26]
Tim Spears
Yeah, I'd certainly think he'll feature. You know, it seems like Unai Emery's the one who's sort of revitalizing his, his career at the moment. I mean, I don't think he scored yet, but he just, he just looks different. You know, he looks, he looks hungrier, he looks sharper he looks happier. I've heard people say it might be too soon to sort of bring him back in. You know, he's only, he's only played well for a few weeks but I'd say Rashford at his best is his very best. He's probably in the England 11 and you know, no one's, no one's really nailed down that left wing spot certainly in the last sort of couple of years under Southgate. You know, Foden was there in the Euros on the left and looked lost and you know, would barely touch the ball sometimes. And Sterling obviously was there for many years but you know, has obviously dropped down a level now. Grealish has played there but has sort of been inconsistent and dropped down a level as well. I think they tried James Madison there at one point. Obviously Gordon under Lee Carsley was probably more hit than miss. He's not been in sort of scintillating form for Newcastle Gordon but you know it's probably 50, 50 call between him and him and Rashford as to who, who starts these two qualifiers. But yeah, the trick for both of them, Rashford and Gordon is maintaining that form for 15 months and nailing down that spot because yeah, nobody's managed to do that for some time now. It's been a bit of a, been a bit of a problem position for England.
- [28:41]
Matt Davis Adams
Someone who's not in this squad, Jack, is Ben White. Do you think he might become a genuine option? It looks like he's ended his self international exile.
- [28:51]
Jack Pitbrook
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. I think that Tuchel certainly left the door open to him when he was asked about this last week when he announced his squad.
- [28:59]
Noah Michelson
He, he loves to be back in, in the squad. I just think it's a bit too early now from him given the, the, the, the, the seriousness of the injury. And I think now it's just a question about, about getting more minutes, getting more rhythm and then here's every chance to be back and he wants to be back, is glad to be back.
- [29:19]
Jack Pitbrook
A lot will depend on how he recovers from that injury and how he gets, you know, when he gets fit. But I wouldn't be surprised if you know, he comes back for England at some point in 2025, which would be the first time we'd have seen him for England for almost three years.
- [29:32]
Matt Davis Adams
So it's two winnable games you would think to get things started over the weekend. The first one may be tougher than the second. It's just an 18 month contract so it goes till the end of the World cup, which again, we're assuming he's going to get England to qualify for. Is it just full focus then, Tim, on the World Cup? He'll have no interest in bringing through the next generation or he's kind of doing both at once, isn't he? With the inclusion of people like, like Morgan Rogers. It's not just all focused on experience.
- [30:00]
Tim Spears
Yeah, definitely. I think there'll be a balance. I mean it does feel like it's like it's a short thing. I mean, I think I heard the other day that they're only going to have. Is it like 25 training sessions between now and the World cup or something?
- [30:12]
Jack Pitbrook
We've got 24 training days.
- [30:14]
Tim Spears
Days. 24 training days, which is mad. And it'll be like I think 14 or 15 games, you know, if you compare that to a club manager getting, I don't know, three weeks of a full preseason or up to six weeks, you know, if you're not in the club World cup this summer, double sessions in those, in those times and then, you know, maybe six or seven friendlies and that's just for the start of the season and then you get half a season to sort of really bed things in in terms of tactics. So Tuchel's going to get nowhere near that amount of time. But these are, these are, are sort of smart, tactically adept footballers, you know, who are adaptable to different types of tactics. So yeah, I think it is a short term fix. I mean, I suspect he'll miss club football too much. I think you can tell already he misses that daily contact with the players, like you always hear international managers say. And you know, between now and September they've just got those June games which is like Andorra away and Senegal at home. There's hardly anything going on between now, now and September. I can't see him wanting to do that every year, every other. But I think, I think that's probably a good thing for England since everybody's focus is on, on the World cup in 2026. They've got this, this ready made group of players. Good mixture of youth and experience and now a top class manager. So there's a very clear focus there on next year.
- [31:35]
Matt Davis Adams
Might it also be a good thing for England, Jack, that this does seem like quite a clear divergence from the, the strategy under Gareth Southgate, you know, good as a rest kind of idea.
- [31:46]
Jack Pitbrook
Yeah, I mean, I think that, I think it is good to have a sort of slightly different direction, I guess from Southgate simply because you can't just do the same thing all the time. Right. Like Southgate was there for eight years and then Karsley, who, you know, came through the same sort of pathway as Southgate, former UN21's manager, he did it straight after. So it's been a long time with fairly similar ideas, I think, for England. England. So maybe it makes sense to have, you know, a very different way of working and a different set of ideas. I guess the issue is what if, you know, Southgate spent so long like building this culture, building the identity, building the ethos of the England team over the course of his tenure and that will survive without him, but it won't survive forever. And I guess the question is at what, you know, does that, does some of that culture and ethos that Southgate built start to erode if you try and do things in a different way? And I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
- [32:45]
Matt Davis Adams
All right, well, that leads us quite nicely onto the. The final question, which I'll ask you both. Tim, you can go first. Would failing to win the World cup in 2026 mean that the Tuchel project had failed?
- [32:58]
Tim Spears
I mean, I mean, he's been brought in to win it and he's been very bold about, you know, yeah, this, this is what I'm here for. We're going there to win. You know, England have overcome the hurdle of not being able to get through to the latter stages of a tournament. You know, that was a problem for many, many years. Couldn't even get to semi final. You know, Southgate took them over that line with all the ingredients they've got. I mean, they're one of four or five teams who can win it. They've got absolutely no right to win it. But, yeah, I think if, if England go through this, this current generation without winning something, then it will be deemed a failure. So, ergo, yes, if they don't win the World cup, that's what they're here for now. So, yeah, it would be a failure.
- [33:40]
Matt Davis Adams
Same for you, Jack. Two stars all bust.
- [33:42]
Jack Pitbrook
Yeah, I mean, yeah, look, Tuchel's spoken very clearly from day one about wanting to win the World Cup. I think it would be unfair to call him a failure if he doesn't. But that is the, you know, that, I suppose, is the standards that they've set. And there's no point in him being manager if they're not trying to win the World Cup. You know, this is not someone who's here to bring through the next generation of England players or to, you know, rebuild the ethos of the England team. Or, you know, establish. Re. Establish the England team's place in the national conversation. Like he's just there to win the World Cup. That's literally what his job is. And I imagine that after the World cup he will probably cease to being a manager. So yeah, I mean, I guess in line with that thinking, I suppose he does have to win it.
- [34:24]
Matt Davis Adams
It's going to be fascinating to see how it all unfolds. That'll wrap things up for this edition of the Athletic FC Podcast back on Monday with another episode. Until then, head to the athletic.com to keep up to date with all the latest football news. Thanks to Jack and to Tim and to Producer J. For now, it's goodbye.
- [34:43]
Tim Spears
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroo and Jay Beal.
- [34:49]
Matt Davis Adams
The executive producer was Aiden Moorhead.
- [34:51]
Tim Spears
To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free. Search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places.
- [34:57]
Matt Davis Adams
The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic.
- [34:59]
Tim Spears
Media company production.
- [35:06]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
The Athletic FC Podcast.
- [35:08]
Matt Davis Adams
Network.
- [35:15]
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- [36:47]
Tim Spears
Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
- [36:55]
Matt Davis Adams
Hey, folks, it's Marc Maron from WT. It's been more than 15 years now, and I'm still talking to all kinds of people in my garage every week. Sometimes it's Bill Burr, sometimes it's Ariana Grande. She just looks at me because she's always going like, dad, it's not that big a deal.
- [37:11]
Tim Spears
Yeah.
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Matt Davis Adams
I go, sorry, I lost my temper.
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Jack Pitbrook
I go, I still love you.
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Matt Davis Adams
You know, Daddy has issues.
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Tim Spears
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The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Well, I don't know.
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Tim Spears
I think about it all the time.
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Tim Spears
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Jack Pitbrook
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