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- [00:00]
Adrian
When I started podcasting, it felt like I had to figure everything out myself. Booking guests, figuring out rundowns, editing the show and publishing it. It seemed like the list of to do's got bigger and bigger and when you're starting off with something new, it seems like that just happens. Finding the right tool that not only helps you out, but simplifies everything can be such a game changer. And for millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform, but behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. Get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style, accelerate your content creation. Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. Get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into a With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com TheAthletic go to shopify.com TheAthLetic shopify.com TheAthLETic.
- [01:33]
Becky
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- [02:46]
Chris
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [02:54]
Ayob Akimwalere
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayob Akimwalere. The Champions League semi finals get underway tonight as Arsenal welcome PSG to the Emirates Stadium. The winner of that tie faces either Barcelona or Inter in the final. So how are the four teams shaping up and who are the favorites to win it? With us today we have the Athletics, Jordan Campbell and Tom Williams. Such out, Arsenal, psg and later on we'll be joined by Thomas Hill, Lopez Manchero and Max Caligari to look at Barcelona vers as Inter Milan. Right before we get into this game itself, gents, I don't know about you, but this feels quite refreshing. You know, the look of these knockout ties. Neither Arsenal or PSG have ever won it. They've both come close while Barcelona and Inter haven't lifted it for a very long time. I think around a decade or so.
- [03:46]
Tom Williams
Oh, completely. It's a great semi final lineup. Feels very fitting that this new format of the Champions League has yielded a semi final lineup that has got some, we can't really call them unfamiliar faces, but teams who, you know, haven't got the same kind of experience at this level as some of the, the real heavyweights. You know, I think we were all a little bit skeptical about the new format, probably didn't understand it entirely when the competition began, but the league phase felt like a real breath of fresh air. I think had we got to the semi final stage and it had been all the kind of the usual faces from recent years, Real Madrid, City, Liverpool, Bayern, perhaps you might have thought, okay, well, you know, all those extra matches, all that extra drama and we've ended up back where we started. But the fact that we've got teams, you know, either who've never won the Champions League in the case of Arsenal and psg, or who haven't reached the final or, you know, or won it for a little while, an interim Barcelona feels really fitting and I think makes it, you know, really, really exciting.
- [04:56]
Ayob Akimwalere
Jordan, does it feel weird not to have those names Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Manchester City or Liverpool in the semi finals given their recent history in the competition? Manchester City obviously have made waves in the last few years in the Champions League, but also last time neither of those teams were involved in the semis was back in 2009. I personally like a bit of freshening up. I personally like a narrative that isn't so prescripted. How do you feel about it?
- [05:24]
Chris
Yeah, no, I totally agree with you because I Think for the last sort of decade, it was almost feeling like the group stage in the last 16 was just a sort of pointless exercise. It was just like, okay, let's just wait until the real game start. And to be fair, a lot of the years they did deliver. You know, we've seen some, some very memorable comebacks and some, some great games, especially since the, the way, the way Go Rule was changed as well. But yeah, I just think seeing teams who haven't won it before and that, you know, it's fresh for the fans as well. There's almost a, you know, an expectancy with Real Madrid, the Man City with the fans and, you know, it's almost part to get to the semifinal was for Arsenal and, and psg. Obviously PSG were there, what, five years ago in the final, but I think for Arsenal, you saw in that last round against Real Madrid just how much it means to get here. And I think people weren't expecting it because of the injuries they've had since, since December. So it feels really like an unexpected run for Arsenal in that sense, especially because Europe was the one part of Mikael Arteta's tenure so far where they hadn't really made the progress that people expect, had expected. You seen Olympiacos, Villarreal, Sporting Bayern last year. They sort of went out with a whimper and it looked like they had a lot of ground to make up, even if Bayern weren't quite the elite, elite team. But yeah, I think it's, I think it's great.
- [06:46]
Ayob Akimwalere
Tom, how would you describe the, the styles of the four teams, really? I guess Inter probably the more defensive out of all those outfits, but you've got sort of full throttle football. Barcelona and psg, Arsenal sort of that, that bit in between, really, of those two.
- [07:01]
Tom Williams
Yeah, completely. I think there are a lot of similarities in the way that Arsenal and PSG play. You know, both teams that like to have the ball, both teams who press very aggressively. You know, both teams have got coaches with, with similar philosophies. No real superstars in either camping. Obviously you've got key players. You know, you've got people like Bukayo Saka and, and Declan Rice at Arsenal, you know, people like Usman Dembele and Krisha Kart Skellier at psg, but you know, they, if not quite underdogs, then there's, there's, there's certainly a, you know, there's an essence of that, I think, or at least a hint of that. And then on the other side of the draw, yeah, Barca Inter feels Like a great matchup, you know, the most impressive attacking team from the league phase in Barcelona against the most impressive defensive team in, in Inter. And yeah, it's, it's a very kind of intriguing clash of styles, I think. And again, that, that adds to, you know, that adds to that sense of anticipation. I'm sure we're all feeling that you've got, you know, you've got these teams that have got such strong identities and, and you know, who, who have very carefully constructed these identities as well. You know, sort of putting them to the test, you know, in these, in these very glamorous fixtures. It's. Yeah, it's exactly what, what you want at this stage of the season.
- [08:30]
Ayob Akimwalere
You know, something just dawned on me, Tom, very quickly is there's actually the slight influence of Guardiola in this SEM, is that you've got Arteta, you've got Hansen Flick to a certain degree with what's happening at Barcelona. We've also got Luis Enrique as well. That's quite interesting, isn't it, that that sort of Cruyf esque kind of football has sort of found its way back into the echelons of European football?
- [08:52]
Tom Williams
No, completely. And in a way, I think Louis, Enrique in particular almost feels like a bit of a throwback tactically in that I think the last few years there's been a feeling that we've kind of moved beyond pure Guardiola football. You know, a lot of elite teams these days, you know, are more sort of hybrid teams. It's, it's not just about passing, it's also about, you know, reacting to losing the ball, counter pressing, etc. Etc. And you know, Luis Enrique is a little bit of a throwback in the sense that he does just want total possession. You know, his dream game is a game in which his team have 95% of the ball and the opposition literally don't leave their own penalty area. And you know, to hell with people who find it a little bit sleepy. He just wants that complete control, you know, he talks about. I mean, last season when they came up against Barcelona, he talked about being in his eyes a much, a much more successful kind of standard bearer for the, the Croifian Barcelona traditions than Chavi. And there aren't many people who can, you can even claim to have out Barcelona Chavi. But you know, that is how Luis Enrique sees himself, Michael Arteta as similar principles, you know, and like you say, Hansi Flick as well. So, yeah, I mean, obviously Pep Guardo has not had a great time of it this season. But I wonder whether, you know, sitting. Sitting back on his sofa watching these games, he'll. He'll allow himself glass of wine and a cigar in hands of a little smile at the thought that, you know, although he's not present in body, he is. He is very much present in spirit.
- [10:28]
Ayob Akimwalere
All right, Jordan, let's. Let's talk Arsenal. You know, it's been a completely different story for them in the Champions League in comparison to the Premier league. They scored 30 goals in 12 games in Europe and an average 2.5 per game. Meanwhile, in the Premier League, averaging just 1.8 goals per game. Is it that the style of football they're playing in the Champions League, do you reckon, is more suited to European football than it is at this moment without a striker? In the Premier League, for instance?
- [10:55]
Chris
Yeah, I think it's more about the opposition because teams like PSG come in October and they really tried to play. Whereas a lot of the time, though, because people have clocked on to just how good Arsenal have become the last three years as teams will just sit in and it's a completely different game when you're trying to break down 11 players, but, you know, sometimes stationed outside their own box. So, yeah, I think it's a lot more open and I think Arsenal are a team who can do both now. They can. They can dominate you and keep you penned inside your own box about like psg, try to do all they can, sit in and be a bit more defensive like. Like the show that actually after they went to nil up against psg, we've seen that with Arsenal a lot. They back themselves as they get into. Into a lead to. To sort of set back. But I think that's been a dangerous thing in the Premier League for them, whereas. And in the Champions League, they've been able to sort of see out those. Those early leads when they've taken it in the first half. But I think that is fundamentally the difference is that Europe can also be a release valve as well, because there's the pressure of constantly chasing for three years, and I think that does mentally tire out players. Whereas you've got the Champions League, you don't need to really motivate people. And maybe as well, the new format probably helped as well, just in terms of being a little bit different, not having to play home and away against the same teams and every team you're playing being new and them not really having great knowledge on you. So, yeah, I imagine that has been a benefit. But now. But now they're Coming up against the team who do know what their strengths are. And you seen, I think I read after the game, the first, the first time they met in the group stage, Louis, Enrique was saying, you know, we just couldn't match their intensity. Arsenal won every single duel. And I think, you know, we can talk about tactics and we can talk about, you know, the different styles, but that is also a part of the game. You saw that Arsenal dead overpower them, but obviously they're going to be without Thomas Partey for the first leg. So how they, how they, you know, the decision he makes in terms of who he brings into the midfield and how that changes the dynamic will be interesting. But yeah, I think PSG will have learned a lot about Arsenal style and it's interesting we talk about, you know, Arteta, Hanty Flat and Enrique and the Barcelona connection because if you think all three of them have gone, they've taken that sort of central idea and gone very different ways with it. You know, you get hands to click with the extreme high line and two and a half times more offsides than anyone else in Europe. You've got Enrique, which is the sort of purists version of it, and then you've got Arteta, which is the, the sort of, I don't know if you can call a Moises.
- [13:32]
Ayob Akimwalere
Well, to be fair, he's got the Everton DNA in there.
- [13:35]
Chris
Yeah, you've got the British blend of like a staple, a really stable 4:4:2, but also, you know, William Saliba at the back playing, you know, really, you know, beautiful football. So yeah, I think, I think Arsenal have now found like a balance in Europe that, that suits them really well. So I don't think they should really stray away with that or try and be anything that they're not.
- [13:57]
Ayob Akimwalere
Yeah, for sure, mate. I didn't even think about it that way. But yeah, really, really good point. And you know, on, on the point of Arteta, Tom, how impressed have you been with Arsenal's wins over Real Madrid in the, in the, over the two legs? Because, you know, I'll be honest, watching Arsenal in Europe hasn't been great over the years in general and Mikel Arteta's record in Europe hasn't been great at all. But they've stuttered in the league as well this season. You know, did that result actually surprise you the way Arsenal actually looked like they obliterated the most successful team in the Champions League completely?
- [14:30]
Tom Williams
I did not see that coming, I'll admit. And I remember thinking prior to that first leg against Madrid, it's Such a shame that Arsenal aren't hitting this at top speed. You know, league form has been a little bit underwhelming. You know, obviously miles off the pace in the title race, missing key players. And I remember thinking it be it's such a shame that Arsenal aren't able to go into this, you know, with a full strength team and with a bit of, you know, a bit more momentum behind them. But that, yeah, I mean, that first leg was, was absolutely thrilling, you know, and that feeling you, you know, you occasionally get watching Champions League football, that you are watching football history, you know, unfold before your eyes, you know, absurd. Declan Rice, free kick, double.
- [15:15]
Jordan Campbell
Who's it going to be, Rice or Erdogan?
- [15:18]
Adrian
It's Rice again.
- [15:22]
Ayob Akimwalere
My goodness.
- [15:25]
Tom Williams
Incredible, this Marino adding the third and then that brilliant performance in, in the, in the second leg. And, you know, I, I think with hindsight, you know, Real Madrid were very naive in the way they set up, particularly in the first leg, you know, leaving both of their fullbacks one on one against, against Martinelli and Saka. You know, as Jordan was saying, Premier League clubs have, have learned that, you know, you do that at your absolute peril. And so most of them have stopped doing that. You know, you, you get teams routinely doubling up on soccer in particular, and Real Madrid didn't do that. But, yeah, I think it's to Arsenal's immense credit, I think it's to Arteta's immense credit that, that they were able to produce two performances of that level. And, you know, there have been times this season, particularly domestically, when, you know, you've, you've seen how far off the pace Arsenal were, you've seen the injury problems start to bite, and Arteta's messaging has been so consistent. You know, we, we still believe we still want to win, we're still going to play our football. And there have been times when I've thought, okay, he's, he's kind of saying that because he has to. I'm not sure if he really believes it deep down, but then you saw what happened against Madrid and then you realize the importance of that messaging. And I think that's been something really important that Arteta's done in terms of the kind of cultural shift that he's engineered at Arsenal, making sure the messaging is really consistent and never wavers. And it means that they can go into a game like that first leg against Real Madrid in the quarterfinals, not in amazing form domestically, missing key players and produce, you know, an incredible performance like they did Jordan.
- [17:00]
Ayob Akimwalere
I'm just Thinking about the match against PSG and obviously Arsenal have beat them already 2 nil in, in the League phase. But also I'm thinking, you know, big seven zero wins against psv, you know, big wins against Real Madrid, you know, surely that has to give this team confidence to feel that, don't get me wrong, psu, a very different proposition now, but they can get something out of this game, at least the home leg, to say the least.
- [17:22]
Chris
Yeah, I mean, I think if that Real Madrid tie doesn't give them belief that they've gone to the next level psychologically, then I don't think anything will. You know, I think that was such some results that sort of define a team's ERA or a team sort of trajectory. And I think that could be the one that we look back on and think, okay, that's the moment that Arsenal really turned because, you know, you're trying to find what's been the missing thing and the League the last couple years, they got to nearly 90 points two seasons in a row. You can't say there was much missing. Obviously this year we talked about a striker and what they may be missing in the forward line, but I think that belief has got to be there now. I think you saw that the way they went to the Bernabeu, a lot of team would have, would have cracked under the, the talk of the back in the bus waiting for them to come and they never looked them ball up at all. And I think that's what gives me belief that Arsenal could go through because a lot of teams can be great teams, but what are they falling back on on a bad day? Whereas if Arsenal don't play to the very top level going forward, they're still probably got, you know, between them and I would say the best defense in Europe. So you've got, you've always got that to fall back on. And even with Gabrielle missing, I think you've seen Wikiwe are stepping in. You know, there's much more than just personnel there. That's something that Artetas built over over five years now. It's almost second nature for them. So, yeah, I think PSG struggled to break it down in October and Arsenal look pretty comfortable, but that was without Dembele. That was, that was Guevara. So, you know, there's two top players there who are coming in. You look at Timber and Louis Kelly, how they, how they handled Rodrigo, how they handle Vinicius, and I think again, you take belief with that and you also think we talk about people leaving Sack and Martinelli 1v1. The one thing Arsenal is every single player there works for the team. And that's obviously why PSG have been better this season. But Saka Martinelli don't leave the, don't leave a fullbacks isolated. And I think it's a collective effort and I think that's why Arsenal I think will be confident. And you know, if you want to beat Real Madrid, you sort of believe that you can be. He can be anyone.
- [19:32]
Ayob Akimwalere
That's a good point. But Tom, you know, Jordan feels Arsenal might get this one over the line, but this is a very different proposition of a PSG team than the team they played in October. You know, we talk about Dembele, we talk about Kvara, Skelia, but you know, this is a team that's definitely grown in confidence. And the way they are demolishing teams at this moment in time, both in the French League, excluding Nice of course, and also in the Champions League, has been really impressive. And I know you caught up with Joao Neves very recently. You know, I mean, what has changed about this team? What, how have they found that confidence and how has their play change, if not just the players?
- [20:12]
Tom Williams
Yeah, I mean, you know, in terms of personnel, the team hasn't changed that much. You go back to that game at the Emirates in October and I think it's probably going to be at least 8 of, of, of the starting 11 from the October game who will start tonight. And the only players liable to come in are Dembele, Fariskhelia and Fabian Ruiz. I think Dembele coming in has been the biggest change in that. Luis Enrique knew, particularly in the Champions League that he wanted to play with a false nine and he tried everyone in that position, you know, during the league phase. It was, it was Kang In Lee who started as the nominal you know, set to forward against Arsenal, which I don't think is a position that he has ever really played before. Certainly hasn't played there since, you know, Desiree Due played there. You know, various different players were given run outs in that position and it was, it was really over the winter months that, that Dembele was finally given, you know, more of a run out in that position. And things clicked. You know, it was really kind of December, coming into January when he hit this extraordinary burst of, of goal scoring form. And I think that has just, you know, that has given PSG a focus to their attacking play. You know, he's on 32 goals now in all competitions, hasn't been as effective in recent weeks. But then he's Been rested a bit. He's been in and out of the team. And I think some of it is also just players getting to grips with, you know, with Luis Enrique's football, you know, like you said. Spoke to Jean Ebez last week and he talked about the kind of work they do on the training ground. You know, the shadow play, the passing circuits, realizing, you know, where you need to be at all times, in and out of possession. You know, one of the things he said was that when, you know, when he first joined, because he, you know, he only arrived last summer. Neves, you know, they'd be, they'd be working on, you know, sort of build up play and a teammate would have the ball and he would be in a position, he'd be in relative close proximity, he'd be unmarked and he would show for a pass and Luis Enrico would scream at him to get out of the way and to, and to get into the position that he should have been taking up. And, and I think what we've seen particularly in the Champions League since the turn of the year is that every PSG player has now taken those instructions on board. They're comfortable swapping positions and they're able to do it in a way that is, that has become automatic and you know, the press has become that bit more organized. You know, the passing circuit's that, that bit more fluid. And again to go back to Dembele, you look at his role in, in the two games against Liverpool, the equalizer that he scores in the second leg, that's a more than reasonable ball for Barcala. And Dembele continues his run and Ibrahim Konate gets there initially, but Dembele scores. Paris Saint Germain pound.
- [23:19]
Jordan Campbell
And the man.
- [23:20]
Tom Williams
Who has stepped out of that all comes from him coming really deep from his position as the nominal sensor forward to pick up a pass, spread it out wide to, I think it was Bradley Bakora then get into the box and that was just a, you know, that was an example of what he has given PSG in this, in this new role. So yeah, in terms of the starting 11, it hasn't been a revolution but the, yeah, the difference in terms of, you know, the level of their football since October is, is pretty substantial. You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akamwalere.
- [24:01]
Adrian
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- [25:17]
Becky
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- [26:24]
Ayob Akimwalere
Jordan let's think about how potentially, you know, Michael Arteta will approach this game tactically. We've spoken about the Barcelona DNA, the Croifian DNA and a slight twist of of Guardiola isms in there. You know, how do they approach this one? Obviously Marino has been playing successfully as the number nine, a bit like Kai Havertz and also Arsenal going to be missing Thomas party for the first leg at least. How does Arteta come into this because there are still questions about Marino's fitness for this and also whether or not you know who goes in that midfield.
- [26:58]
Chris
Yeah, I mean we're two legged affair. I Always prefer probably to have the home leg second. You know, you get a solid draw and come back and blow them away. But I think because it's the same setup as the last round that have given them belief that, okay, the way we approach the first half against Real Madrid was maybe a bit of a lull before, obviously, everything exploded, but there was a bit of a low where it was like, are Arsenal being aggressive enough here? Are they really putting the foot on the accelerator? But I thought it was a mature performance. And I think there can't be any of this. You know, there'll be some people think we need to go and get a two or three now lead. That's not how it looks in the Champions League semi finals against the team as good as spc. So I don't expect Arsenal to be gung ho or anything different than they usually are in big games. I think it will be built upon a solid base. And, yeah, I think Massacre Martinelli being back, though, that's. It's huge. Now they've got a bit more games under the belt, they should be back to almost full sharpness. So I would expect Arsenal to come in and try and have some of the ball, but I wouldn't be surprised again if they let PSG have the majority of the ball. At times. I don't think it'll be anything like PSG dominating territory, but there'll be periods like against Real Madrid where Arsenal say, okay, use have it. See if you can break through us. And I think the Arsenal fans have got to be understanding that, because that's what Arsenal are good at. But at the same time, Arteta is trying to rally the crowd last, last night at the press conference, saying, we need you kicking every ball. I told them, and I'm not exaggerating when I said, guys, bring your boots, bring your short, bring your T shirts, and let's play every ball together. You know, you want to do something special, that place has to be something special, something that we haven't seen.
- [28:42]
Ayob Akimwalere
And I really hope that everybody that.
- [28:44]
Chris
Comes tomorrow to the Emirates and everybody's watching and following us, that energy within. And I guess there's a balance to be struck in terms of you need to lift the crowd and get the crowd on top of PSG so you can't sit and soak up pressure for too long. But I think it'll be a balance. And, yeah, I would expect Arsenal to try and make a fast start and really, really sort of scare PSG with intensity and the physicality of them. You know, I Wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of corners and in the first half and really just test out Donna Roma coming, you know, because I think that's one thing that people always looked at over the years is Donna Ruma for his size, does he command his area for the crosses as well? And we saw Kiwi all we had great header. So the weekend. So the Gabrielle's mess from. From set pieces looks like it might not be completely absent. So I think, yeah, I think everything will be in and sort of balance. But the midfield is a big question because with party and race in there you've just got so much power. We've got two people who can sort of dovetail and keep the ball, but they can also drive forward, break play up I think without him, you know, do you put Declan rice at 6 and you know, as Tom was saying about PSG with them, barely drop Minty the false nine a bit like Mbappe was doing at times for real to try and get them playing. Do you trust Declan Rice there and bring Mourinho back to left eight and have Trossard up front who's obviously twice and his last two games playing up there. I would expect Marino to make it, but there's part of me quite wouldn't want to upset that too much and would like to probably start with Mourinho up front because I guess that also gives you the option to go a bit longer and play over the press which they might have to do at times if PSG are on it. So I would prefer to go with psg. Go Marino up front. I guess that means you probably then have to bring in Georginio at 6 and move, move, race to it. And I guess that's the, that's, that's the, the difficulty there because Georgina was also been struggling as well. So yeah, there's a lot of food for thought. I think he might lean towards Trossard up front and Marino left it. But then I guess you sort of have to then play through because Tross is not going to be able to really compete in the air. But I think that's the one major decision. The rest of the team really picks itself, especially California, not, not training. So Louis Kelly will definitely start and Kiwi Austin definitely start as well. So I think the team does pick itself for Arsenal in the same way that PSG is maybe one or two, two spots. But yeah, I think that's the, the one. I don't know what your, what your thoughts are on it.
- [31:22]
Ayob Akimwalere
Yeah, I mean look, it's it's what it needs to be. And I think you're right to a certain degree. But, you know, I think I've learned from some of the press conferences Michael Arteta is giving this season, when he talks about fitness and then automatically the player starts in that game and you're thinking, okay, he loves a mind game, so I'm just going to wait and see. But Tom, you know, just, just thinking about PSG against Aston Villa and, you know, Villa almost bringing that one back. I wonder if that was a bit of a reality check from the highs they felt in this competition, beating the likes of Manchester City and Liverpool, for instance. Considering they had a shaky start, it looked like they were finally gathering some momentum. A blistering first leg against Villa and then it. All the wheels almost fell off in respect on the return leg.
- [32:06]
Tom Williams
Yeah, and it felt very similar to, you know, some of the, the infamous meltdowns that PSG have, have suffered in the Champions League in recent years. And you know, were it not for some of those remarkable saves by, by Donnarumma, you know, notably from, from Marcus Rashford and that Yuri Tieleman's header could well have ended up very different. I thought it was interesting that Louis Enrique didn't make that many changes during that period. I think he made one change around sort of the, the 60, 65 minute mark. Yeah, he brought on due for Barcola, but that was it. And I think part of it was kind of giving this quite young PSG team an opportunity to ride out that period of difficulty which they ended up doing, you know, sort of 20 minutes where they were really on the ropes and you thought, Villa are going to equalize any minute here. And then they kind of got through it, you know, composed themselves and you know, PSG could even have added another goal themselves towards the end of the game. So I think ultimately it will stand them in good stead. I think the feeling was that, you know, they were 51 up on aggregate, you know, after the second goal at Villa park. And I think a bit of complacency crept in. You know, that team who, who take risks in possession, who take calculated risks, and they started taking too many risks. Even in the build up to the second PSG goal, they're kind of, you know, playing these passes on the edge of their own penalty area and almost having their, their pockets picked. And yeah, I think generally speaking, you know, the, the team as a whole kind of lost focus momentarily and Villa almost exploited it. So you think that will serve them well. It also shows to Arsenal that You know, that they can be got at, you know, perhaps if you're a bit more direct. But I think, yeah, above all, I think it was an opportunity that. That, you know, an opportunity for PhD to show how much they've sort of changed as a team, that they can now ride out these. These moments of difficulty. They will hope that they don't find themselves in a similar position over the two legs against Arsenal, but if they do find themselves up against it and on the ropes, they can at least fall back on that vil game, the second leg at least, and know that they're capable of, you know, clinging on, clinging on and. And surviving moments like that.
- [34:35]
Ayob Akimwalere
Yeah. And very quickly. I know you guys have to go, but I'm going to ask you your predictions for the final. Jordan, I feel like you feel Arsenal already have a foot in the final. Who might that other team be joining them if that. If that is the case?
- [34:48]
Chris
I don't know about a foot. Maybe a small tour. Yeah, I think Arsenal might. Just because they're so solid, I think that will be maybe just enough to nick it by a goal. So I'm gonna go Arsenal and then I'm gonna go into for the same reason. And then a nil. Nil final penalties.
- [35:09]
Ayob Akimwalere
Oh, no biteing. I like that.
- [35:12]
Tom Williams
Tom, what you say purely to disagree with Jordan. I'm gonna say PSG Barcelona. But I think, to be honest, I think whatever happens, I think it'll be. It'll be a great lineup. And yeah, you know, hopefully. Hopefully. I mean, I'm pretty confident we'll see some great football in the semifinals at the very least. So that's something to look forward to.
- [35:35]
Ayob Akimwalere
So you've got box office. Jordan's gone for a doll fest in the final. I'm sticking with you, Tom. Actually, I want proper football. Let's do this. All right, gents, thanks so much for your time. Really appreciate you joining us.
- [35:47]
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- [36:35]
Ayob Akimwalere
All right, let's turn our attention to the other semi final, Barcelona versus Inter. Let's welcome Tomasio Lopez, Manchero and Max Caligari as well. Oh, so good to have you with us. Right, Thomas, let's start with you. Look, the semi final first leg at the Mondrique comes off the back of Barcelona's win over Real Madrid in the Copa del Rey final on Saturday. That was the most bizarre Copa del Rey final. Jules Kounde scored the winner, some amazing goals from Pedri. I mean, La Minamal Mbappe the list goes on. But, you know, first of all, what did you make of that insane game?
- [37:11]
Tomasio Lopez Manchero
An absolutely sensational game. Barca proving they can bat away basically any challenge that's put to them at the moment. I mean, Madrid go ahead and ahead until the 84th minute, and yet they're still able to. To come back against, you know, the kings of remote others as they. As they probably would like to see themselves, Madrid. And yeah, it gives them huge confidence going into this massive semi final against Inter Milan.
- [37:34]
Ayob Akimwalere
Yeah, for sure. Max, let's. Let's bring this in on the Inter perspective because, look, Barca are on a treble. Meanwhile, Inter were on a treble. Unfortunately, it's looking like it has been a bit of a damaging week. You know, the loss to Roma and then the weekend defeat to arch rivals Milan as well in the Coppa Italia semi finals. I mean, what is happening here? You know, we have a phrase here, the wheels are coming off. I don't know if that translates well in Italian, but what is happening to Inzaghi's team?
- [38:06]
Jordan Campbell
You could say that. Le ruotes istanos gonfiando.
- [38:11]
Ayob Akimwalere
Is that how you translate it?
- [38:13]
Jordan Campbell
Yeah, more or less, yeah. I think that they are feeling okay, the age of the team. They are tired because of the games they are playing. They have already played three more games than the whole season before the previous season. But I think that there is also a mental issue. They have put by themselves, on themselves a lot of pressure for this treble. We use more in Italy, the spirit version, the triplete, because Iter was and remains the only club able to win three trophies in the same season with Jose Mourinho in 2010. But then Jose Mourinho never spoke about this. Never spoke, he said, until the last press conference before the final Champions League game against Bayern Munich. Champions League for Us is a dream, not an obsession. While Simone and Dagi joking. Okay, but not at all. Said 3 when a Dutch reporter told him, you are running for two trophies this season. After the game against Feyenoord, it was meaning Champions League in Serie A. And Simone Tzaghi says, said three because also of the Coppa Italia. But at the end they are more. They are closer to the Neverkusen syndrome of Bayer Leverkusen in 2002, running for every trophy, winning no trophies. I think that it is more important to run and stay in the competition until the end. Okay, you can win, you can't win, but you are in the competition how you are in the competition. This is the issue. And they feel tired. They look under pressure. And the pressure is also the rivalry against more Antonio Conte than Napoli because his figure was crucial. It was key to put pressure on Inter because every time Napoli was at the top of the table, he said, in this area we are doing something of extraordinary, okay? While when Inter was the top of the table, everybody thought, okay, they are there because they are the best team. So this pressure is making the difference.
- [40:47]
Ayob Akimwalere
Yeah, man. There's another phrase we have here called maybe they shot themselves in the foot by saying, you know, they want a little trouble, but. Exactly.
- [40:55]
Chris
Right.
- [40:55]
Ayob Akimwalere
But Thomas, let's. Let's flip this to Barca, you know, talk about the Copa del Rey. Incredible resilience to come back from 21 down. I generally thought Real Madrid actually won that game, but a surge of great movement and great goals from Barca at the back end. Could we just talk about the switch in mentality potentially? I mean, they did have some good results on the Xavi, but this seems like this still focus on the Hansi flick this time around and almost a never give up attitude.
- [41:24]
Tomasio Lopez Manchero
Yeah, it's interesting what Max was saying there about Inter kind of feeling the pressure of the treble. I actually think with Barca, it's the opposite. These. These young players are playing with absolutely no pressure on their shoulders, despite the fact they're. They're on the brink of a pretty historic achievement. Only the third treble in. In Barca's history. I think you're absolutely right. IO to point out the. The mentality thing, I think that's been. That's been big under Flick, although arguably those fearless young players have that anyway. And then tactically it's been. It's been a massive shift. I mean, they play with this extremely high line which let could be breached against Inter. There have been signs in the past couple of weeks of of teams, including Celto Vigo for instance, kind of exploiting that, that high line. But then it's just such a. Such an exciting style of play and I think they just back themselves to score more goals than. Than anyone else at the moment. That's the key.
- [42:12]
Ayob Akimwalere
Yeah. Max, you spoke about this Inters age profile. You know, they could be the oldest team ever to win the Champions League if it, if they do go all the way. You know, the, the. In terms of the average age of the starting 11, 30 years old and 13 days. Now taking the record from Jose Mourinho's inter side of 2019, 2009, I should say 10, who were 29 and 358 days. I mean, could it be the experience that. That wins these games for them? Could it be that been here, done that before that kind of gets them over the line? I'm trying to look for some positives here because it feels like Inter have actually run out of a little steam, if I'm honest.
- [42:54]
Jordan Campbell
I think there's no exclusive and only one recipe to win. Of course, to win this game's experience is very important. The experience of the manager too, for example, Ansi Flick, for example, Jose Mourinho. The experience of the player, okay, but the dark side of the moon is that you are a bit more conscious of this. As Thomas said before, while the freshness of the young players put them in a condition to know that this is a chance, this is the moment to leave and that this won't be anyway the last chance. Because for some interplayers there is also this extra pressure. In my opinion, they are at their last dance in the Champions League at this level. Mkhitaryan, Acherbe, Damian, others. So you have to put everything on, on the balance. I think that that Inter of Jose Mourinho had experienced players, but also players in the best shape of their life as Wesley Zweider, as Diego Milito. So that was also the key.
- [44:19]
Ayob Akimwalere
Samuel Eto as well was in that team, you remember? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
- [44:23]
Jordan Campbell
So I think that you don't have an extrad recipe, as I said before. And I think that the most important thing is to know the sensations and the feelings you are going to leave in this kind of games. And the players of Barcelona are very young, okay, but they have already the experience of the Euro cup. Many Spanish players, Pedri Laminal and others for the World Cup. The World cup, for example, Raphinha Lewandowski. Even if you won't be of the game, especially in the first leg. So I think that you have to put everything on the balance and experience is not only and not the exclusive key to win these games.
- [45:09]
Ayob Akimwalere
Yeah, Thomas, the age profiles is interesting. You spoke about it as well in terms of, you know, look at Lamina set to become just a second 17 year old to start a semi final in the Champions League history after Ryan Turkey for Lyon against Bayern in, I think it was 2020. I mean, your mouse just extraordinary. I mean, playing beyond his ages, playing fearlessly. And I think in a weird way, what you're saying as well is fascinating in terms of the fact that he encapsulates the spirit of this Barca team, which is fundamentally fearlessness, which is fundamentally. The sky's the limit. And that can be hard to come up against. Might be naive, but it does give a surgence of, of pure quality. And look at the searing passes he's played this season and the effortless goals he scored this season.
- [45:55]
Tom Williams
That was risky. Oh, my word. And here come Barcelona. Barcelona.
- [45:59]
Jordan Campbell
Rafinha with the pass.
- [46:02]
Tom Williams
And it's another one this time. Lamin.
- [46:09]
Ayob Akimwalere
There's a deep confidence in them that's actually quite unshakable.
- [46:12]
Tomasio Lopez Manchero
Yeah, definitely. And I mean, you saw that even in the celebrations after the cup final the other day. You know, Yamal with his new dyed blonde hair.
- [46:19]
Ayob Akimwalere
I'm not a fan of it.
- [46:20]
Tomasio Lopez Manchero
Sunglasses?
- [46:21]
Ayob Akimwalere
No.
- [46:21]
Tomasio Lopez Manchero
So it shows confidence, though. Shows confidence. Z. And you know, he's asked by Barca's official channels about, about the, about beating Madrid and he kind of says they weren't bothered by the goals they scored against us. They can't beat us this year. Which just goes to show, you know, a 17 year old saying that, and one of the biggest clubs in the world in, in one of the biggest rivalries in world football. And he's, and he's just taking it on the chin, basically. I, I do feel like we could be set for another defining performance from Yamal in a European semi final. If you think about what he did against France at the Euros last, last year, which, you know, max reference there. And I think you need that kind of confidence to succeed as a teenager at Barcelona. What's so impressive about Yamal Kubasi, these young players, is that despite being involved in, you know, last year in, in a, in a fairly traumatic Champions League loss against PSG in the quarterfinals, you remember they, they won the first leg and it looked like taking them back to Montjuich. It was, it was going to be, you know, relatively straightforward. They lose. I think Yamao's in tears at the end. And even so, he's come back even stronger after. After defining Euros after a defining season for him. He's, He's. His numbers have just got better and better. I mean, 14 goals and 24 assists, you. You can't really argue with that.
- [47:30]
Ayob Akimwalere
Yeah, massively. Massively. On the flip side, let's look at defensive natures of this Inter team. Actually, you know, they could equal the record of most clean sheets max by an Italian team in the Champions League. Currently they're on eight. The record is the other Milan team on nine and Juventus. Actually, they're both tied. Do you think Inter can, I guess, nullify Barca's attacking threat?
- [47:59]
Jordan Campbell
Almost nullify totally. I don't think so. I think it's not possible. But there's data that should worry Inter fans or should kill them. Very careful because about expected goals. In the final stage, Inter conceded almost 11 goals left than the expected goals. So they conceded a lot as quantity and quality of the chance to the. To the opposite teams. And also in the. In the league phase this season, the difference between conceded goals and expected goals was eights for Inter. So they have been a bit lucky in some situations. I think that they did something different and better than in the league and in the Copa Italia 2 against AC Milan because they put everything on the pitch in every situation until the last second. They produced some incredible saves against Bayern Munich in the second leg. In other moments against Arsenal in the league phase, because Arsenal was the toughest team I saw and they watched instant zero this year in the Champions League, but they resisted. Now they have to do something similar to what Jose Mourinho's inter did in 2010. In the camp, no, even in 10 men for the Senegal of Thiago Motta. Defense compact, solid, stable. To resist the pressure of Barcelona, not concede too many space at the shoulder, at the back of the. Of the defense, of the defense and the defenders. They won't be Benjamin Pavar, who is injured and won't fly with the. With the team to Barcelona. There will be Yambisic, who is 24, still a young defender in some situation. Not so solid, not so focused in every moment of the game. And it will be on the side of Raphinha. And this could be one of the most important parts of the game on a tactical plan, in my opinion.
- [50:43]
Tom Williams
This is the Athletic FC podcast with Ioacamolera.
- [50:50]
Ayob Akimwalere
Right, Thomas, let's move on to Barca and sort of look at what this potential season could sort of end up being really. Because, you know, yesterday we did a pod on, on a slot winning the Premier League in his first season at Liverpool, while Hansi Flick could win the treble in his first season at Barca. You know, how big of an achievement could this be, really considering, you know, Pep Guardiola, Luis Enrique are recent managers who have done that. But as a first season thing, it's quite extraordinary.
- [51:20]
Tomasio Lopez Manchero
Yeah, it is extraordinary and it's extraordinary considering the, the position Barca were in when he joined, you know, after a pretty tough exit from Javi, a club legend who, who left in these circumstances of kind of u turns over his. His future. I think the fans found that difficult also in a financial situation where, you know, I mean, we haven't even spoken about the Olmo Victor registration saga which kind of threatened to overshadow the season, thankfully was, you know, I think for everyone involved, including neutrals following that story was, was kind of tied up a couple of, a couple of weeks ago. And so yeah, he comes into a difficult situation and yet he's, he's managed to turn it around. You know, I think compared to those two Treble winning teams, they sort of combine some of the elements of both of them. You've got the youth or the, or this generation that have all come through together and you've got a devastating front line in Yamal Lewandowski and Raphinha. So it's really exciting times for, for Barca fans and you know, I think even if they don't go on to win the Treble because it's, it's worth saying that is such a difficult achievement. Flick deserves so much credit for having restored Barca fans with some optimism, some hope. And this is coming from a guy who's, who's not Catalan, who's still speaking English in his press conferences and, and yet, you know, has managed to, to get everyone rowing in the same direction. It is really impressive.
- [52:36]
Ayob Akimwalere
Max Thomas talks about optimism and hope and I'm thinking what the, the last time Inter won the Champions league was in 2010, of course, Mourinho. But also, come on, they were recent Champions League finalists until what, two, two, three years ago against Manchester City. I mean, how big of a statement would it be for Italian football if this interide went on to win it this season? Because it feels like Italy need a Champions League recently.
- [53:07]
Jordan Campbell
Yeah, it could be another step to coming back to the elite of European football because, you know, as you said two years ago, the final against Manchester City of Erling Golland, one of the best teams in the history of that club and of English football, in my opinion. And before 2017, Juventus against Real Madrid. Cristiano Ronaldo, Sinedine Zidane as a manager, one of the best Real Madrid has ever. And 2015, Juventus in the final in Berlin against Barcelona. Luis Eric as a manager, Messi Suhares and Neymar, one of the best three attackers of the. Of the history of football. But why do I say another step more? Because last season Italy won the Europa League with Atalanta, played another conference, the final with the Fiorentina two years ago, three European finals, three losses. But a lot of prestige for us. And it could be, and it should be very important to win, because as you know, the last time Italian national team played in a World cup was in 2014. So for the whole Italian football, football it will be very, very important. I don't know if it's easy. Of course not. I don't know if it's possible. Maybe, yes. But if you asked me one month ago the chances of Inter to win the Champions League, I would have asked, of course, more than now.
- [54:44]
Ayob Akimwalere
Okay, well, this is a good time to ask both your predictions for the final. I asked the gentleman earlier and I was really surprised by the outcome. But Max, dare I say, I don't feel like you think Inter are going to make it to the final.
- [55:00]
Jordan Campbell
I don't think so, for sure. And to be honest, when asked, when they asked me at the beginning of the final phase, I said, looking at the brackets, I said until the semifinals, they can arrive, they can go. The semifinal against Barcelona would be very, very hard. I still think that Barcelona is the favorite against Inter and I don't know if you want to. No. Also they are the finalists and I think that it's. Tell me more, in my opinion, is more balanced for. For the Champions League. Course I would say Paris Saint Germain, but I see that Arsenal is doing very, very well, even if they are without a striker since months. So I would say Paris Saint Germain, but I think maybe Arsenal could do something a little more. But I don't know. I don't know if Arsenal would be so, so strong as they were against Real Madrid, because they need to stay so strong to beat that Paris Saint Germain that was impressive against Liverpool.
- [56:09]
Ayob Akimwalere
Wow. Okay, so Barcelona vs. PSG is pretty much the Barcelona final. Really? But Thomas, what do you think? Who are you seeing making their way to the final?
- [56:19]
Tomasio Lopez Manchero
Yeah, I think it's interesting because all of these teams seem to have some faults. I mean, even Barca. Let's be fair for for all their attacking prowess do have some deficiencies at the back. Yeah which have been exposed in recent weeks. So I think this semi final is going to be really interesting. I'm sure Inter will put them under pressure. I do think Barca could go to Italy with with a fairly healthy lead from from this first game in Montu. So I see Barca getting through to the final from the Italian point of view and then yeah, PSG arsenal. It is fascinating. Again I think both sides who you know have their problems in some ways and then are brilliant in others but I probably see PSG getting through from that.
- [57:01]
Ayob Akimwalere
Okay gents, I really appreciate your time and great analysis on the semi finals and also that both teams inevitably, let's just say we are expecting goals, goals, goals for both legs. So I appreciate you joining us. Max, Thomas, Tom and Jordan will be back tomorrow.
- [57:18]
Chris
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [57:26]
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