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- [00:01]
Jordan Campbell
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- [00:32]
Tom Williams
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- [01:28]
Ayob Akimwaleere
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [01:36]
Max Caligari
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayob Akimwaleere. The Champions League semi finals get underway tonight as Arsenal welcome PSG to the Emirates Stadium. The winner of that tie faces either Barcelona or Inter in the final. So how are the four teams shaping up and who are the first favorite to win it? With us today we have the Athletics, Jordan Campbell and Tom Williams to chat Arsenal, psg and later on we'll be joined by Thomas Hill, Lopez Manero and Max Caligari to look at Barcelona versus Inter Milan. Right before we get into this game itself, Gents, I don't know about you, but this feels quite refreshing. You know the look of these knockout ties. Neither Arsenal or PSG have ever won it. They've both come close.
- [02:22]
Tomasio Lopez Manchero
Why?
- [02:23]
Max Caligari
Barcelona and Inter haven't lifted it for a very long time. I think around a decade or so.
- [02:28]
Ryan Reynolds
Oh, completely. It's a great semi final lineup. Feels very fitting that this new format of the Champions League has yielded a semi final lineup that has got some, we can't really call them unfamiliar faces, but teams who, you know, haven't got the same kind of experience at this level as some of the, the real heavyweights, you know, I think we were all a little bit skeptical about the new format, probably didn't understand it entirely when the competition began, but the league phase felt like a real breath of fresh air. I think had we got to the semi final stage and it had been all the kind of the usual faces from recent years. Real Madrid, City, Liverpool, Bayern, perhaps you might have thought, okay, well, you know, all those extra matches, all that extra drama and we've ended up back where we started. But the fact that we've got teams, you know, either who've never won the Champions League in the case of Arsenal and psg, or who haven't reached the final or, you know, or won it for a little while, an interim Barcelona feels really fitting and I think makes it, you know, really, really exciting.
- [03:38]
Max Caligari
Jordan, does it feel weird not to have those names? Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Manchester City or Liverpool in the semi finals given their recent history in the competition? Manchester City obviously have made waves in the last few years in the Champions League, but also last. Neither of those teams were involved in the semis was back in 2009. I personally like a bit of freshening up. I personally like a narrative that isn't so prescripted. How do you feel about it all?
- [04:06]
Ayob Akimwaleere
Yeah, no, I totally agree with you because I think for the last sort of decade it was almost feeling like the group stage in the last 16 was just a sort of pointless exercise. It was just like, okay, let's just wait until the real game start. And to be fair, a lot of the years they did deliver. You know, we've seen some, some very memorable comebacks and some, some great games, especially since the, the way the goal rule was changed as well. But yeah, I just think seeing teams who haven't won it before and that, you know, it's fresh for the fans as well. There's almost a, you know, an expectancy with Real Madrid, the man City with the fans and you know, it's almost path to get to the semi final was for Arsenal and, and psg. Obviously PSG were there what, five years ago in the final, but I think for Arsenal, you saw in that last round against Real Madrid just how much it means to get here. And I think people weren't expecting it because of the injuries they've had since, since December. So it feels really like an unexpected run for Arsenal in that sense, especially because Europe was the one part of Mikhail Arteta's tenure so far where they hadn't really made the progress that People expect, had expected. You seen Olympiacos, Villarreal, Sporting Bayern last year. They sort of went out with a whimper and it looked like they had a lot of ground to make up, even if Bayern weren't quite the elite, elite team. But yeah, I think, I think it's great.
- [05:28]
Max Caligari
Tom, how would you describe the styles of the four teams, really? I guess Inter probably the more defensive out of all those outfits, but you've got sort of full throttle football. Barcelona and psg. Arsenal, sort of that, that bit in between really, of those two?
- [05:43]
Ryan Reynolds
Yeah, completely. I think there are a lot of similarities in the way that Arsenal and PSG play. You know, both teams that like to have the ball, both teams who press very aggressively. You know, both teams have got coaches with, with similar philosophies. No real superstars in either camping. Obviously you've got key players. You know, you've got people like Bukayo Saka and, and Declan Rice at Arsenal, you know, people like Usman Dembele and Krisha Kart Skellier at psg. But you know, they, if not quite underdogs, then there's, there's, there's certainly a, you know, there's an essence of that, I think, or at least a hint of that. And then on the other side of the draw, yeah, Barca Inter feels like a great matchup. You know, the most impressive attacking team from the league phase in Barcelona against the most impressive defensive team in, in Inter. And yeah, it's, it's a very kind of intriguing clash of styles, I think. And again, that, that adds to, you know, that adds to that sense of anticipation. I'm sure we're all feeling that you've got, you know, you've got these teams that have got such strong identities and, and you know, who, who have very carefully constructed these identities as well. You know, sort of putting them to the test, you know, in these, in these very glamorous fixtures. It's. Yeah, it's exactly what, what you want at this stage of the season.
- [07:12]
Max Caligari
You know, something just dawned on me, Tom, very quickly. There's actually the slight influence of Guardiola in this semi finals is that you've got Arteta, you've got Hansi Flick to a certain degree with what's happening at Barcelona. We've also got Luis Enrique as well. That's quite interesting, isn't it, that that sort of Cruyff esque kind of football has sort of found its way back into the echelons of European football, you know, completely.
- [07:36]
Ryan Reynolds
And in a way, I think Louis Enrique in particular, almost feels like a bit of a throwback tactically in that I think the last few years, there's been a feeling that we've kind of moved beyond pure Guardiola football. You know, a lot of elite teams these days, you know, are more sort of hybrid teams. It's. It's not just about passing. It's. It's also about, you know, reacting to losing the ball, counter pressing, etc. Etc. And, you know, Luis Enrique is a little bit of a throwback in the sense that he does just want total possession. You know, his dream game is a game in which his team have 95% of the ball and the opposition literally don't leave their own penalty area. And, you know, to hell with people who find it a little bit sleepy. He just wants that complete control. You know, he talks about, I mean, last season when they came up against Barcelona, he talked about being, in his eyes, a much. A much more successful kind of standard bearer for the. The Croifian Barcelona traditions than Xavi. And there aren't many people who can. You can even claim to have out Barcelona, Xavi. But, you know, that is how Luis Enrique sees himself. Michael Arteta has similar principles, you know, and like you say, Hansi Flick as well. So, yeah, I mean, obviously Pep Guardo has not had a great time of it this season, but I wonder whether, you know, sitting. Sitting back on his sofa watching these games, he'll. He'll allow himself glass of wine in a cigar in hands of a little smile at the thought that you. Although he's not present in body, he is. He is very much present in spirit.
- [09:10]
Max Caligari
All right, Jordan, let's talk. Let's talk Arsenal. You know, it's been a completely different story for them in the Champions League in comparison to the Premier league. They scored 30 goals in 12 games in Europe and an averaged 2.5 per game. Meanwhile, in the Premier League, averaging just 1.8 goals per game. Is it that the style of football they're playing in the Champions League, do you reckon is more suited to European football than it is at this moment without a striker? In the Premier League, for instance, Yeah.
- [09:38]
Ayob Akimwaleere
I think it's more about the opposition because teams like PSG come in October and they really tried to play. Whereas a lot of the time, though, because people have clocked on to just how good Arsenal have become the last three years as teams will just sit in and it's a completely different game when you're trying to break down 11 players, but, you know, sometimes stationed outside their own box. So, yeah, I think it is a lot more open and I think Arsenal are a team who can do both now. They can. They can dominate you and keep you penned inside your own box about like psg, try to do all they can, sit in and be a bit more defensive, like. Like the showed, actually, after they went to nil up against psg, We've seen that with Arsenal a lot. They back themselves as they get into the. Into a lead to. To sort of set back. But I think that's been a dangerous thing in the Premier League for them, whereas. And in the Champions League, they've been able to sort of see out those. Those early leads when they've taken it in the first half. But I think that is fundamentally the difference is that Europe can also be a release valve as well, because there's the pressure of constantly chasing for three years, and I think that does mentally tire out players. Whereas you've got the Champions League, you don't need to really motivate people. And maybe as well, the new format probably helped as well, just in terms of being a little bit different, not having to play home and away against the same teams and every team you're playing being new and them not really having great knowledge on you. So, yeah, imagine that has been a benefit. But now. But now they're coming up against the team who do know what their strengths are. And you seen, I think I read after the game, the first. The first time they met in the group stage, Luis Enrique was saying, you know, we just couldn't match their intensity. Arsenal won every single duel. And I think, you know, we can talk about tactics and we can talk about, you know, the different styles, but that is also a part of the game. You saw that Arsenal did overpower them, but obviously they're going to be without Thomas Partey for the first leg. So how they. How they, you know, the decision he makes in terms of who he brings into the midfield and how that changes the dynamic will be interesting. But, yeah, I think PSG will have learned a lot about Arsenal style. And it's interesting. We talk about, you know, Arteta, hand to Flit and Enrique in the Barcelona connection, because if you think all three of them have gone, they've taken that sort of central idea and gone very different ways with it. You know, you get hands with the extreme high line and two and a half times more offsides than anyone else in Europe. You've got Enrique, which is the sort of purists version of it, and then you've got Arteta, which Is the, the sort of. I don't know if you can call it a Moises.
- [12:14]
Max Caligari
Well, to be fair, he's got the Everton DNA in there.
- [12:17]
Ayob Akimwaleere
Yeah, You've got the British blend of like a staple, a really stable 4, 4, 2. But also, you know, William Saliba at the back playing, you know, really, you know, beautiful football. So, yeah, I think, I think Arsenal have now found like a balance in Europe that, that suits them really well. So I don't think they should really stray away with that or try and be anything that they're not.
- [12:39]
Max Caligari
Yeah, for sure, mate. I didn't even think about it that way. But yeah, really, really good point. And you know, on the point of Arteta, Tom, how impressed have you been with Arsenal's wins over Real Madrid in the, in the, over the two legs? Because, you know, I'll be honest, watching Arsenal in Europe hasn't been great over the years in general, and Mikel Arteta's record in Europe hasn't been great at all. But they've stuttered in the League as well this season. You know, did that result actually surprise you the way Arsenal actually looked like they obliterated the most successful team in the Champions League completely?
- [13:12]
Ryan Reynolds
I did not see that coming, I'll admit. And I remember thinking prior to that first leg against Madrid, it's such a shame that Arsenal aren't hitting this at top speed. You know, league form has been a little bit underwhelming, you know, obviously miles off the pace in the title race, missing key players. And I remember thinking it'd be. It's such a shame that Arsenal aren't able to go into this, you know, with a full strength team and with a bit of, you know, a bit more momentum behind them. But that, yeah, I mean, that first leg was, was absolutely thrilling, you know, and that feeling you, you know, you occasionally get watching Champions League football, that you are watching football history, you know, unfold before your eyes, you know, absurd. Declan Rice, free kick, double.
- [13:57]
Jordan Campbell
Who's it going to be, Rice or Erdogan?
- [14:00]
Max Caligari
It's Rice again. My goodness.
- [14:07]
Ryan Reynolds
Incredible this Marino adding the third and then that brilliant performance in, in the, in the second leg. And you know, I, I think with hindsight, you know, Real Madrid were very naive in the way they set up, particularly in the first leg, you know, leaving both of their fullbacks one on one against, against Martinelli and Saka. You know, as Jordan was saying, Premier League clubs have, have learned that, you know, you do that at your absolute peril. And so most of them have stopped doing that, you know, you. You get teams routinely doubling up on soccer in particular, and Real Madrid didn't do that. But, yeah, I think it's to Arsenal's immense credit, I think it's to Arteta's immense credit that. That they were able to produce two performances of that level. And, you know, there have been times this season, particularly domestically, when, you know, you've. You've seen how far off the pace Arsenal were, you've seen the injury problems start to bite, and Arteta's messaging has been so consistent. You know, we. We still believe we still want to win, we're still going to play our football. And there have been times when I've thought, okay, he's. He's kind of saying that because he has to. I'm not sure if he really believes it deep down, but then you saw what happened against Madrid and then you realize the importance of that messaging. And I think that's been something really important that Arteta's done in terms of the kind of cultural shift that he's engineered at Arsenal, making sure the messaging is really consistent and never wavers. And it means that they can go into a game like that first leg against Real Madrid in the quarterfinals, not in amazing form domestically, missing key players, and produce, you know, an incredible performance like they did Jordan.
- [15:42]
Max Caligari
I'm just thinking about the match against PSG, and obviously Arsenal have beat them already 2 nil in. In the league phase, but also I'm thinking, you know, big seven zero wins against psv, you know, big wins against Real Madrid, you know, surely that has to give this team confidence to feel that. Don't get me wrong, PSG are very different proposition now, but they can get something out of this game, at least the home leg, to say the least.
- [16:04]
Ayob Akimwaleere
Yeah, I mean, I think if that Real Madrid tie doesn't give them belief that they've gone to the next level psychologically, then I don't think anything will. You know, I think that is such some results that sort of define a team's ERA or a team sort of trajectory. And I think that could be the one that we look back on and think, okay, that's the moment that Arsenal really turned because, you know, you're trying to find what's been the missing thing and the league the last couple years, they got the nearly 90 points two seasons in a row. You can't say there was much missing. Obviously, this year we talk about a striker and what they may be missing in the forward line, but I think that belief has got to be there now. I think you saw that the way they went to the Bernabeu. A lot of team would have. Would have cracked under the talk of the comeback and the bus waiting for them to come, and they never looked them both up at all. And I think that's what gives me belief that Arsenal could go through, because a lot of teams can be great teams, but what are they falling back on on a bad day? Whereas if Arsenal don't play to the very top level going forward, they're still probably got, you know, between them and I would say the best defense in Europe. So you've got. You've always got that to fall back on. And even with Gabriel missing, I think you've seen wikiwe stepping in. You know, there's much more than just personnel there. That's something that Arteta has built over. Over five years now, and it's almost second nature for them. So, yeah, I think PSG struggled to break it down in October and Arsenal looked pretty comfortable, but that was without Dembele. That was. That was Guevara. So, you know, there's two top players there who are coming in. You look at Timber and Louis Kelly, how they. How they handled Rodrigo, how they handle Vinicius, and I think, again, you take belief with that. And you also think. We talk about people leaving Sack and Martinelli 1v1. The one thing about Arsenal is every single player there works for the team. And that's obviously why PSG have been better this season. But Saka, Martinelli, don't leave the. Don't leave the fullbacks isolated. And I think it's a collective effort. And I think that's why Arsenal, I think, will be confident. And, you know, if you. Once you beat Real Madrid, you sort of believe that you can be. He can be anyone.
- [18:14]
Max Caligari
That's a good point. But, Tom, you know, Jordan feels Arsenal might get this one over the line, but this is a very different proposition of a PSG team than the. The team they played in October. You know, we talk about Dembele, we talk about Kvara, Skelia, but, you know, this is a team that's definitely grown in confidence. And the way they are demolishing teams at this moment in time, both in the French League, excluding Nice, of course, and also in. In the Champions League has been really impressive. And I know you caught up with Joao Neves very recently. You know, I mean, what has changed about this team?
- [18:48]
Tom Williams
What.
- [18:49]
Max Caligari
How have they found that confidence and how has their play change, if not just the players?
- [18:54]
Ryan Reynolds
Yeah, I mean, you know, in terms of personnel the team hasn't changed that much. You go back to that game at the Emirates in October and I think it's probably going to be at least 8 of, of of the starting 11 from the October game who will start tonight. And the only players liable to come in are Dembele Variskelia and Fabian Ruiz. I think Dembele coming in has been the biggest change in that. Luis Enrique knew, particularly in the Champions League that he wanted to play with a false nine and he tried everyone in that position, you know, during the league phase. It was, it was Kang In Lee who started as the nominal you know, set to forward against Arsenal, which I don't think is a position that he has ever really played before. Certainly hasn't played there since, you know, the zero do a played there. You know, various different players were given run outs in that position and it was, it was really over the winter months that, that Dembele was finally given, you know, more of a run out in that position and things clicked. You know, it was really kind of December coming into January when he hit this extraordinary burst of, of goal scoring form. And I think that has just, you know, that has given PSG a focus to their attacking play. You know, he's on 32 goals now in all competitions. Hasn't been as effective in recent weeks, but then he's been rested a bit. He's been in and out of the team and I think some of it is also just players getting to grips with, you know, with Luis Enrique's football, you know, like you said, spoke to Jean EZ last week and he talked about the kind of work they do on the training ground. You know, the shadow play, the passing circuits, realizing, you know, where you need to be at all times, in and out of possession. You know, one of the things he said was that when, you know, when he first joined, because he, you know, he only arrived last summer. Neves, you know, they'd be, they'd be working on, you know, sort of build up play and a teammate would have the ball and he would be in a position, he'd be in relative close proximity, he'd be unmarked and he would show for a pass and Luis Enrico would scream at him to get out of the way and to, and to get into the position that he should have been taking up. And, and I think what we've seen particularly in the Champions League since the turn of the year is that every PSG player has now taken those instructions on board. They're comfortable swapping positions and they're able to do it in a way that is, that has become automatic and you know the press has become that bit more organized. You know the passing circuit's that, that bit more fl. And again to go back to Dembele, you look at his role in, in the two games against Liverpool, the equalizer that he scores it in the second leg, that's a more than reasonable ball for Barcala. And Dembele continues his run and Ibrahim.
- [21:52]
Max Caligari
Konate gets there initially but Dembele scores. Paris Saint Germain pounce.
- [22:01]
Jordan Campbell
And the man who is is stepped out.
- [22:03]
Ryan Reynolds
That all comes from him coming really deep from his position as the nominal sensor forward to pick up a pass, spread it out wide to I think it was Bradley Bara then get into the box and that was just a, you know, that was an example of what he has given PSG in this, in this new role. So yeah, in terms of the starting 11, it hasn't been a revolution but the, yeah the difference in terms of, you know, the level of their football since October is, is pretty substantial. You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akamolere Ryan Reynolds here from.
- [22:42]
Tom Williams
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- [23:06]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [23:07]
Tom Williams
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- [23:14]
Max Caligari
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- [23:24]
Tom Williams
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- [23:25]
Max Caligari
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- [23:37]
Tom Williams
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- [24:14]
Max Caligari
Jordan, let's think about how potentially you know Mikel Arteta will approach this game tactically. We've spoken about the Barcelona DNA, the Croifian DNA and the slight twist of Guardiola isms in there. You know, how do they approach this one? Obviously Mourinho has been playing successfully as the number nine, a bit like Kai Havertz and also Arsenal going to be missing Thomas Partey for the first leg at least. How does Arteta come into this? Because there are still questions about Mourinho's fitness for this and also whether or not, you know, who goes in that midfield.
- [24:49]
Ayob Akimwaleere
Yeah, I mean we're two legged affair. I always prefer probably to have the home leg second. You know, you got a solid draw and come back and blow them away. But I think because it's the same setup as the last round that have given them belief that, okay, the way we approached the first half against Real Madrid was maybe a bit of a lull before obviously everything exploded. But there was a bit of a low where it was like, are Arsenal being aggressive enough here? Are they really putting the foot on the accelerator? But I thought it was a mature performance and I think there can't be any of this, you know, there'll be some people think we need to go and get a two or three, no lead. That's not how it works in the Champions League semifinals against a team as good as spc. So I don't expect Arsenal to be gung ho or anything different than they usually are in big games. I think it will be built upon a solid base. And yeah, I think Massaka Martinelli being back though, that's huge. Now they've got a bit more games under the belt. They should be back to, to almost feel full sharpness. So I would expect Arsenal to come in and try and have some of the ball, but I wouldn't be surprised again if they let PSG have the majority of the ball. At times I don't think it would be anything like PSG dominating territory, but there'll be periods like against Real Madrid where Arsenal say, okay, use have it, see if he can break through us. And I think the Arsenal fans have got to be understanding of that because that's what Arsenal are good at. But at the same time, Arteta is trying to rally the crowd last night at the press conference saying, we need you kicking every ball. I told them, and I'm not exaggerating when I said, guys, bring your boots, bring your shorts, bring your T shirts and let's play every ball together. You know, you want to do Something special. That place has to be something special, something that we haven't seen.
- [26:33]
Max Caligari
And I really hope that everybody that.
- [26:35]
Ayob Akimwaleere
Comes tomorrow to the, to the Emirates and everybody's watching and following us. It brings that energy with them. And I guess there's a balance to be struck in terms of you need to lift the crowd and get the crowd on top of PSG so you can't sit and soak up pressure for too long. But I think it'll be a balance. And yeah, I would expect Arsenal to try and make a fast start and really, really sort of scare PSG with intensity and the physicality of them. You know, I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of corners and in the first half and really just test out Donna Roma coming because I think that's one thing that people always looked at over the years is Donna rumor for his size. Does he command his area for the crosses as well? And we saw Kiwi all were a great header. So the weekend. So the Gabrielle's mess from. From set pieces looks like it might not be completely absent. So I think, yeah, I think everything will be in and sort of balance. But the midfield is a big question because with party and race in there, you've just got so much power. We get two people who can sort of dovetail and keep the ball, but they can also drive forward, break play up. I think without him, you know, do you put Declan rice at 6 and you know, as Tom was saying about PSG with them barely drop into the false 9, a bit like Mbappe was doing at times for real to try and get them playing. Do you trust Declan Rice there and bring Mourinho back to left eight and have Trossard up front who's obviously scored twice and his last two games playing up there. I would expect Marino to make it, but there's part of me quite wouldn't want to upset that too much and would like to probably start with Mourinho up front because I guess that also gives you the option to go a bit longer and play over the press, which they might have to do at times if PSG are on it. So I would prefer to go with psg. Go Marino up front. I guess that means you probably then have to bring in Georginio at 6 and move, move, race to it. And I guess that's the, that's. That's the, the difficulty there because Georgina was also been struggling as well. So yeah, there's a lot of food for thought. I think he might lean towards Trossard up Front and Marino left it. But then I guess you sort of have to then play through because Tross is not going to be able to really compete in there. But I think that's the one major decision. The rest of the team really picks itself, especially California, not, not training. So Louis Kelly will definitely start and Kiwi Offshore definitely start as well. So I think the team does pick itself for Arsenal in the same way that PSG is maybe one or two, two spots, but yeah, I think that's the, the one. I don't know what your, what your thoughts are on it.
- [29:13]
Max Caligari
Yeah, I mean, look, it's, it's what it needs to be. I think you're, you're right to a certain degree. But, you know, I think I've learned from some of the press conferences Michael Arteta is giving this season when he talks about fitness and then automatically the player starts in that game and you're thinking, okay, he loves a mind game, so I'm just going to wait and see. But Tom, you know, just, just thinking about PSG against Aston Villa and, you know, Villa almost bringing that one back. I wonder if that was a bit of a reality check from the highs they felt in this competition, beating the likes of Manchester City and Liverpool, for instance. Considering they had a shaky start, it looked like they were finally gathering some momentum. A blistering first leg against Villa and then it. All the wheels almost fell off in respect on the return leg.
- [29:57]
Ryan Reynolds
Yeah, and it felt very similar to, you know, some of the, the infamous meltdowns that PSG have, have suffered in the Champions League in recent years. And you know, were it not for some of those remarkable saves by, by Donnarumma, you know, notably from. From Marcus Rashford and that Yuri Teleman's header could well have ended up very different. I thought it was interesting that Louis Enrique didn't make that many changes during that period. I think he made one change around sort of the, the 60, 65 minute mark. Yeah, he brought on due for Barcola, but that was it. And I think part of it was kind of giving this quite young PSG team an opportunity to ride out that period of difficulty which they ended up doing, you know, sort of 20 minutes where they were really on the ropes and you thought Villa are going to equalize any minute here. And then they kind of got through it, you know, composed themselves and, you know, PSG could even have added another goal themselves towards the end of the game. So I think ultimately it will stand them in good stead. I think the feeling was that, you know, they were 51 up on aggregate, you know, after the second goal at Villa park. And I think a bit of complacency crept in. You know, that team who, who take risks in possession, who take calculated risks, and they started taking too many risks even in the build up to the second PSG goal. They're kind of, you know, playing these passes on the edge of their own penalty area and almost having their. Their pockets picked. And, yeah, I think generally speaking, you know, the, the team as a whole kind of lost focus momentarily and Villa almost exploited it. So you think that will serve them well? It also shows to Arsenal that, you know, that they can be got at, you know, perhaps if you're a bit more direct. But I think, yeah, above all, I think it was an opportunity that, that, you know, an opportunity for PhD to show how much they've sort of changed as a team, that they can now ride out these. These moments of difficulty. They will hope that they don't find themselves in a similar position over the two legs against Arsenal, but if they do find themselves up against it and on the ropes, they can at least fall back on that vil game, the second leg at least, and know that they're capable of, you know, clinging on, clinging on and, and surviving moments like that.
- [32:26]
Max Caligari
Yeah. And very quickly. I know you guys have to go, but I'm going to ask you your predictions for the final. Jordan, I feel like you feel Arsenal already have a foot in the final. Who might that other team be joining them if that. If that is the case?
- [32:39]
Ayob Akimwaleere
I don't know about a foot. Maybe a small tour. Yeah, I think Arsenal might, just because they're so solid, I think that will be maybe just enough to nick it by a goal. So I'm going to go Arsenal and then I'm going to go into for the same reason, and then a nil. Nil final penalties.
- [33:00]
Max Caligari
Oh, no, no bite to go like that.
- [33:03]
Ryan Reynolds
Tom, what you say purely to disagree with Jordan. I'm gonna say PSG Barcelona, but I think, to be honest.
- [33:10]
Jordan Campbell
Oh, I think.
- [33:11]
Ryan Reynolds
I think whatever happens, I think it'll be. It'll be a great lineup. And yeah, you know, hopefully.
- [33:19]
Ayob Akimwaleere
Hopefully.
- [33:20]
Ryan Reynolds
I mean, I'm pretty confident we'll see some great football in the semifinals at the very least, so that's something to look forward to.
- [33:26]
Max Caligari
So you've got box office. Jordan's gone for a dole fest in the final. I'm sticking with you, Tom, actually. I want proper football. Let's do this. All right, gents, thanks so much for your time. Really Appreciate you joining us.
- [33:36]
Tom Williams
There are people out there all across the country pushing boundaries to grow the game of golf, like champion speed golfer Lauren Kupp, who plays faster than anyone else. And Will Lowrey, whose work in the golf community inspires more kids to get into the game As a champion partner of the Masters, bank of America supports everyone determined to find out what's possible in golf and in life. What would you like the power to do? Bank of America bank of America NA Member FDIC Copyright 2025 bank of America Corporation All Rights Reserve all right, let's.
- [34:07]
Max Caligari
Turn our attention to the other semi final, Barcelona versus Inter. Let's welcome Tomasio Lopez Manchero and Max Caligari as well. So good to have you with us. Right, Thomas, let's start with you. Look, the semi final first leg at the Mondrique comes off the back of Barcelona's win over Real Madrid in the Copa del Rey final on Saturday. That was the most bizarre Copa del Rey final. Jules Kounde scored the winner, some amazing goals from Pedri. I mean, La Minamal Mbappe, the list goes on. But, you know, first of all, what did you make of that insane game?
- [34:42]
Tomasio Lopez Manchero
An absolutely sensational game. Barca proving they can bat away basically any challenge that's put to them at the moment. I mean, Madrid go ahead and ahead until the 84th minute, and yet they're still able to. To come back against, you know, the kings of Remontadas as they. As they probably would like to see themselves, Madrid. And yeah, it gives them huge confidence going into this massive semi final against Inter Milan.
- [35:05]
Max Caligari
Yeah, for sure. Max, let's bring this in on the Inter perspective because, look, Barca are on a treble. Meanwhile, Inter were on a treble. Unfortunately, it's looking like it has been a bit of a damaging week. You know, the loss to Roma and then the weekend defeat to arch rivals Milan as well in the Coppa Italia semifinals. I mean, what is happening here? You know, we have a phrase here, the wheels are coming off. I don't know if that translates well in Italian, but what is happening to Inzaghi's team?
- [35:37]
Jordan Campbell
You could say that. Le rote sistanos gonfiando.
- [35:42]
Max Caligari
Is that how you translate it?
- [35:44]
Jordan Campbell
Yeah, more or less, yeah. I think that they are feeling okay, the age of the team. They are tired because of the games they are playing. They have already played three more games than the whole season before the previous season. But I think that there is also a mental issue they have put by themselves, on themselves a lot of pressure for this treble we use more in Italy. The spirit version, the Triplett. Because Iter was and remains the only club able to win three trophies in the same season with Jose Mourinho in 2010. But then Jose Mourinho never spoke about this. Never spoke, he said, until the last press conference before the final Champions League game against Bayern Munich. Champions League for us is a dream, not an obsession. While Simone and Dagi joking, okay, but not at all, said three when a Dutch reporter told him, you are running for two trophies this season. After the game against Feyenoord, it was meaning Champions League in Serie A. And Simon Sagi says, said three because also of the Coppa Italia. But at the end they are more. They are closer to the Neverkusen syndrome or by Leverkusen in 2002, running for every trophy, winning no trophies. I think that it is more important to run and stay in the competition until the end. Okay, you can win, you can't win, but you are in the competition how you are in the competition. This is the issue. And they feel tired. They look under pressure. And the pressure is also the rivalry against more Antonio Conte than Napoli because his figure was crucial. It was key to put pressure into. Because every time Napoli was at the top of the table, he said, in this area, we are doing something of extraordinary, okay? While when Inter was the top of the table, everybody thought, okay, they are there because they are the best team. So this pressure is making the difference.
- [38:18]
Max Caligari
Yeah, man. There's another phrase we have here called. Maybe they shot themselves in the foot by saying, you know, they wanted treble, but. Exactly.
- [38:26]
Ayob Akimwaleere
Right.
- [38:26]
Max Caligari
But Thomas, let's flip this to Barca. You know, talk about the Copa del Rey. Incredible resilience to come back from 21 down. I generally thought Real Madrid actually won that game, but a surge of great movement and great goals from Barcelona, the back end. Can we just talk about the. The switch in mentality potentially? I mean, they did have some good results under Xavi, but there seems like this still focus on the Hansi flick this time around and almost a never give up attitude.
- [38:55]
Tomasio Lopez Manchero
Yeah, it's interesting what Max was saying there about Inter kind of feeling the pressure of the treble. I actually think with Barca, it's the opposite. These. These young players are playing with absolutely no pressure on their shoulders, despite the fact they're. They're on the brink of a pretty historic achievement. Only the third treble in. In Barca's history. I think you're absolutely right, IO to point out the. The mentality Thing I think that's been, that's been big under Flick, although arguably those fearless young players have that anyway. And then tactically it's been, it's been a massive shift. I mean they play with this extremely high line which, let's see, could be breached against Inter. There have been signs in the past couple of weeks of, including Celta Vigo for instance, kind of exploiting that, that high line. But then it's just such a, such an exciting style of play and I think they just back themselves to score more goals than, than anyone else at the moment. That's the key.
- [39:43]
Max Caligari
Yeah. Max, you spoke about this Inters age profile. You know they could be the oldest team ever to win the Champions League if, if they do go all the way. You know that in terms of the average age of the starting 11, 30 years old and 13 days. Now taking the record from Jose Mourinho's of 2019, 2009, I should say 10 who were 29 and 358 days. I mean, could it be the experience that. That wins these games for them, could it be that been here, done that before that kind of gets them over the line? I'm trying to look for some positives here because it feels like Inter have actually run out of a little steam, if I'm honest.
- [40:25]
Jordan Campbell
I. I think there's no. An exclusive and only one recipe to win. Of course to win this game's experience is very important. The experience of the manager too, for example, Ansi Flick, for example, Jose Mourinho. The experience of the player. Okay, but the dark side of the moon is that you are a bit more conscious of this. As Thomas said before, while the freshness of the young players put them in a condition to know that this is a chance, this is the moment to leave and that this won't be anyway the last chance. Because for some Inter players there is also this extra pressure. In my opinion they are their last dares in the Champions League at this level. Mkhitaryan, Acherbe, Damian, others. So you have to put everything on the balance. I think that, that Inter of Jose Mourinho had experienced players, but also players in the best shape of their life as Wesley Snider, as Diego Milito. So that was also the key.
- [41:50]
Max Caligari
Samuel Eto as well was in that team, remember? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
- [41:54]
Jordan Campbell
So I think that you don't have an extradition recipe, as I said before. And I think that the most important thing is to know the sensations and the feelings you are going to Leave in this kind of games. And the players of Barcelona are very young. Okay. But they have already the experience of the Euro Cup. Many Spanish players, Pedri, Laminal and others for the World Cup. The World cup, for example, Raphinha, Lewandowski, even if you won't be of the game, especially in the first leg. So I think that you have to put everything on the balance and experience is not only and not the exclusive key to win these games.
- [42:40]
Max Caligari
Yeah, Thomas, the age profiles is interesting. You spoke about it as well in terms of, you know, look at Lamina Mal set to become just a second 17 year old to start a semi final in the Champions League history after Ryan Turkey for Lyon against Bayern in, I think it was 2020. I mean, Yamal's just extraordinary. I mean, playing beyond his ages, playing fearlessly. And I think in a weird way what you're saying as well is fascinating in terms of the fact that he encapsulates the spirit of this Barca team, which is fundamentally fearlessness, which is fundamentally. The sky's the limit. And that can be hard to come up against. Might be naive, but it does give a surgeons of, of pure quality. And look at the searing passes he's played this season and the effortless goals he scored this season.
- [43:26]
Ryan Reynolds
That was risky. Oh my word. And here come Barcelona.
- [43:30]
Max Caligari
Rafinha with the pass. And it's another one this time, Lamin. There's a deep confidence in them that's actually quite unshakable.
- [43:43]
Tomasio Lopez Manchero
Yeah, definitely. And I mean, you saw that even in the celebrations after the cup final the other day. You know, Yamal with his new dyed blonde hair.
- [43:50]
Max Caligari
I'm not a fan of it.
- [43:51]
Tomasio Lopez Manchero
Sunglasses?
- [43:52]
Max Caligari
No.
- [43:52]
Tomasio Lopez Manchero
So it shows confidence though. Shows confidence. And you know, he's asked by Barca's official channels about, about the, about beating Madrid and he kind of says they weren't bothered by the goals they scored against us. They can't beat us this year. Which just goes to show, you know, a 17 year old saying that at one of the biggest clubs in the world in, in one of the biggest rivalries in world football. And he's, and he's just taking it on the chin, basically. I, I do feel like we could be set for another defining performance from Yamal in a European semi final. If you think about what he did against France at the Euros last, last year, which, you know, Max referenced there, and I think you need that kind of confidence to succeed as a teenager at Barcelona. What's special so impressive about Yamal Kubasi? These young players Is that despite being involved in, you know, last year in. In a. In a fairly traumatic Champions League loss against PSG in the quarterfinals, you remember they. They won the first leg and it looked like taking them back to Mont Uich. It was. It was going to be, you know, relatively straightforward. They lose. I think your mouse in tears at the end. And even so, he's come back even stronger after. After defining Euros after a defining season for him. His numbers have just got better and better. I mean, 14 goals and 24 assists, you can't really argue with that.
- [45:01]
Max Caligari
Yeah, massively. Massively. On the flip side, let's look at defensive natures of the Inter team. Actually, you know, they could equal the record of most clean sheets max by an Italian team in the Champions League. Currently they're on eight. The record is the other Milan team on nine and Juventus. Actually they're both tied. Do you think Inter can, I guess, nullify Barca's attacking threat?
- [45:30]
Jordan Campbell
Almost nullify totally. I don't think so. I think it's not possible. But there's data that should worry Inter funds or should kill them. Very careful because about expected goals. In the final stage, interconceeded almost 11 goals left than the expected goals. So they considered a lot as quantity and quality of the chance to the. To the opposite teams. And also in the. In the league phase this season the difference between conceded goals and expected goals was eights for Inter. So they have been a bit lucky in some situations. I think that they did something different and better than in the league and in the Coppa Italia 2 against the simulant because they put everything on the pitch in every situation until the last second. They produced some incredible sales against Bayern Munich in the second leg. In other moments against Arsenal in the league phase, because Arsenal was the toughest team I saw and they watched in San Siro this year in the Champions League, but they resisted. Now they have to do something similar to what Jose Mourinho's inter did in 2010. In. In the camp, no, even in 10 men for the Senegal, for Thiago Motta. Defense, compact, solid, stable. To resist the pressure of Barcelona, not concede too many space at the shoulder, at the back of the defense and the defenders. They won't be Benjamin Pavar, who is injured and won't fly with the team to Barcelona. There will be Jan Bisek, who is 24, still a young defender in some situation, not so solid, not so focused in every moment of the game. And he will be on the side of Raphinha. And this could be one of the most important parts of the game on a tactical plan, in my opinion.
- [48:13]
Tom Williams
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. From your morning podcast to your afternoon playlist, State Farm knows you personalize your entire day. And that's why State Farm helps you personalize your insurance with the State Farm Personal Price Plan. It offers coverage options that help protect what you care about most at an affordable price, just for you. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices vary by state, options selected by customer availability and eligibility may vary.
- [48:41]
Jordan Campbell
Hey there. I'm David Harbour from Marvel Studios Thunderbolts. I don't mean to interrupt your favorite podcast.
- [48:47]
Ayob Akimwaleere
Well, actually, maybe I do just a little bit, but I have a good reason. My new film hits theaters Friday, May 2, and it's got action, suspense, humor, heart and Bob. Who's Bob?
- [48:59]
Jordan Campbell
Find out by getting tickets now.
- [49:01]
Ayob Akimwaleere
Okay, now back to the show or.
- [49:03]
Ryan Reynolds
Onto the next ad. This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Acemolare.
- [49:16]
Max Caligari
Right, Thomas, let's move on to Barca and sort of look at what this potential season could sort of end up being, really. Because, you know, yesterday we did a pod on Arna Slot winning the Premier League in his first season at Liverpool, while Hansi Flick could win the treble in his first season at Barca. You know, how big of an achievement could this be, really considering, you know, Pep Guardiola, Luis Enrique are recent managers who have done that. But as a first season thing, it's quite extraordinary.
- [49:45]
Tomasio Lopez Manchero
Yeah, it is extraordinary and it's extraordinary considering the, the position Barcelona were in when he joined, you know, after a pretty tough exit from Javi, a club legend who left in these circumstances of kind of u turns over his. His future. I think the fans found that difficult also in a financial situation where, you know, I mean, we haven't even spoken about the Olmo Victor registration saga, which kind of threatened to overshadow the season, thankfully was, you know, I think for everyone involved, including neutrals, following that story was, was kind of tied up a couple of, a couple of weeks ago. And so yeah, he comes into a difficult situation and yet he's, he's managed to turn it around. You know, I think compared to those two treble winning teams, they sort of combine some of the elements of both of them. You've got the youth or the, or this generation that have all come through together and you've got a devastating front line in Jamal Lewandowski and Raphinha. So it's really exciting times for, for Barca fans. And you know, I think Even if they don't go on to win the treble, because it's, it's worth saying that is such a difficult achievement. Flick deserves so much credit for having restored Barca fans with some optimism, some hope. And this is coming from a guy who's, who's not Catalan, who's still speaking English in his press conferences and yet has managed to get everyone rowing in the same direction. It is really impressive.
- [51:02]
Max Caligari
Max Thomas talks about optimism and hope. And I'm thinking what, the last time Inter won the Champions league was in 2010, of course, with Jose Mourinho. But also, come on, they were recent Champions League finalists until what, two, two, three years ago against Manchester City. I mean, how big of a statement would it be for Italian football if this Inter side went on to win it this season? Because it feels like Italy need a Champions League recently.
- [51:32]
Jordan Campbell
Yeah, it could be another step to coming back to the elites of European football. Because, you know, as you said two years ago, the final against Manchester City of Erling Golland, one of the best teams in the history of that club and of English football, in my opinion. And before 2017, Juventus against Real Madrid, Cristiano Ronaldo, Sinedine, Zidane as a manager, one of the best. Real Madrid as ever. And 2015, Juventus in the final in Berlin against Barcelona, Luis He, Ric as a manager, Messi Suhares and Neymar, one of the best three attackers of the. Of the history of football. But why do I say another step more? Because last season Italy won the Europa League with Atalanta, played another conference, the final with the Fiorentina two years ago, three European finals, three losses. But a lot of prestige for us. And it could be, and it should be very important to win because as you know, the last time Italian national team played in the World cup was in 2014. So for the whole Italian football, football it will be very, very important. I don't know if it's easy. Of course not. I don't know if it's possible. Maybe, yes. But if you asked me one month ago the chances of Inter to win the Champions League, I would have asked, of course, more than now.
- [53:10]
Max Caligari
Okay, well, this is a good time to ask both your predictions for the final. I asked the gentleman earlier and I was really surprised by the outcome. But Max, dare I say I don't feel like you think Inter are going to make it to the final.
- [53:25]
Jordan Campbell
I don't think so for sure. And to be honest, when asked, when they asked me at the beginning of the final phase, I Said, looking at the brackets, I said until the semifinals they can arrive, they can go. The semi final against Barcelona would be very, very hard. I still think that Barcelona is the favorite against Inter and I don't know if you want to know also they are the finalists and I think that it's.
- [53:58]
Max Caligari
Tell me more.
- [54:00]
Jordan Campbell
My opinion is more balanced for the Champions League. Course I would say Paris Saint Germain, but I see that Arsenal is doing very, very well even if they are without a striker since months. So I would say Paris Saint Germain, but I think maybe Arsenal could do something a little more. But I don't know. I don't know if Arsenal would be so, so strong as they were against Real Madrid because they need to stay so strong to beat that Paris Saint Germain. That was impressive against Liverpool.
- [54:34]
Max Caligari
Wow. Okay, so Barcelona vs. PSG is pretty much the Barcelona final.
- [54:39]
Ryan Reynolds
Really.
- [54:40]
Max Caligari
But Thomas, what do you think? Who are you seeing making their way to the final?
- [54:44]
Tomasio Lopez Manchero
Yeah, I think it's interesting because all of these teams seem to have some faults. I mean even, even Barca, let's be fair, for, for all their attacking prowess, do have some deficiencies at the back. Yeah. Which have been exposed in recent weeks. So I think this semi final is going to be really interesting. I'm sure Inter will put them under pressure. I do think Barca could go to Italy with. With a fairly healthy lead from, from this first game in Montuich. So I see Barca getting through to the final.
- [55:11]
Ayob Akimwaleere
Sorry, Max.
- [55:12]
Tomasio Lopez Manchero
From the Italian point of view and then yeah, PSG Arsenal is fascinating again. I think both sides who, you know, have their problems in some ways and then are brilliant in others, but I probably see PSG getting through from that.
- [55:26]
Max Caligari
Okay gents, I really appreciate your time and great analysis on the semi finals and also that both teams inevitably, let's just say we are expecting goals, goals, goals for both legs. So I appreciate you joining us. Max, Thomas, Tom and Jordan will be back tomorrow.
- [55:43]
Ayob Akimwaleere
The Athletic FC podcast network.