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- [00:00]
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- [01:22]
Aura
This podcast is brought to you by Aura. By the time you hear about a data breach, your information has already been exposed for months. On average, companies take 277 days to report a breach. That's nine months where hackers have access to your personal data. That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Aura is an all in one digital safety solution that monitors the dark web for your phone number, email and Social Security number, sending real time alerts if your info is found. It also includes a vpn, password manager and data broker removal to help keep you safe for a limited time. Aura is offering a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked. All for free@aura.com safety that's aura.com safety to sign up and protect your loved ones. That's a u r a.com safety. Terms apply. Check the site for details.
- [02:16]
Mike Finoya
Acast Powers the World's Best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend. Remember blowing into a video game cartridge or taping songs off the radio?
- [02:29]
Charles McBee
How about Saturday morning cartoons?
- [02:31]
Mike Finoya
Hey AOL chat rooms did we just age ourselves? Yep, we're Mike Finoya and Charles McBee, two comedians getting nostalgic and asking that nagging question. Are we old? Relive the laughs, the cringes and the nostalgia. Are we old? Podcast right here on Acast. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.
- [03:11]
LinkedIn Sales Navigator
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [03:16]
Charles McBee
Iowa Kimwalera here and welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast. Coming up, we'll be reflecting on the incredible game at the Yetihad on Sunday.
- [03:25]
Mike Finoya
Saka takes Gabriel's in there. And Arsenal lean on the Champions patch. Kovacic.
- [03:37]
Charles McBee
So have Arsenal moved closer to dethroning Manchester City despite not beating them? I'm joined by the Athletics, Manchester City writer Sam Lee and Arsenal writer James McNicholas, who were both at the Etihad yesterday. So, gent, it was a 2, 2 draw before we actually get into the match. A little word from both of you because I know we're all there working, but we're also fans of the game. Right. So it was such a dramatic encounter to watch. Lots going on the pitch and also off the pitch. Were there moments in that game where you sort of chuckled to yourself or you thought, I cannot believe I've just seen that. We'll start with you, Sam.
- [04:13]
Sam Lee
Yeah, look, I really enjoy covering City and I'd watch them beat a team 4 nil. No, no contest, no problem. And read into it all the tactics and who's playing well. But like, that was like, okay, like this is. And I love the Liverpool games. City, Liverpool games were amazing. The technical quality was great and everyone was like, oh, it's not the same needle as United against Arsenal back in the day. I didn't care about that. The rivalries were amazing. It meant a lot to the fans, meant a lot to the players, blah, blah, blah. But this game was like, oh, okay, this is the on the pitch quality as well, but it does have that needle as well. And yeah, the best way to probably sum it up is I've never seen a press box be on their feet for like the final moments. Everybody was standing up, just trying to watch it, trying to see, look at the ball, look at the stuff going on off the ball, everything. Yeah, it was brilliant.
- [04:57]
Charles McBee
What about you, James?
- [04:58]
Mike Finoya
I think Sam makes a great point about the way in which this rivalry is evolving and developing, because I think until now, I think mainly because of the relationship between Pep Guardiola, Mikel Arteta, the enormous mutual respect. Respect that exists between those two. It's always felt a bit polite. It's always felt like a bit of a. An intellectual rivalry, if you will, almost a tactical rivalry. And that is gripping in its own way. But yesterday you could see that I think for a lot of these players and Maybe for the managers as well. A personal dynamic is developing too. And there was a lot of emotion on the pitch yesterday. And I think as people who love football and who love stories about football, we're always going to welcome that. Right. Because these are the stories that we'll be telling for years and years and hopefully this can be a great rivalry for years to come. I think based on how Arsenal have sort of progressed over the last few years, it looks like it could be that way.
- [05:53]
Charles McBee
Yeah. Definitely want to go into this rivalry a little later on in the pod. But Sam, let's talk about the actual football because, you know, that first 20 minutes for Manchester City, I know, I was watching it even as an Arsenal fan. It was absolutely spellbinding. A really wonderful start from Manchester City.
- [06:09]
Sam Lee
Yeah. And when, you know, Harland runs through on goal, finishes it as if it's not a care in the world, it just kind of reminds you of those blistering starts City have had where, you know, thinking about the nil, nil last season and everybody saying this rivalry hasn't really kicked off. I mean, two seasons ago the games were, were pretty good. Last season they were fairly dull. But if you think about the City Liverpool games, you think about when City play top teams who aren't challenges like Spurs, United, Chelsea, City normally play well. There's normally a lot to talk about and there's normally a lot of fast start in those games. You just think City were irresistible. So when they start like that and Harlan goes through and scores, it kind of gets rid of that narrative of Saliba and Gabrielle against Haaland. Like straight away you feel like, okay, this is not going in one direction because you'd expect Arsenal to, to come back. But that start was like, they're really on it. You know, they were, they were man to man pressing. They were so aggressive with that. But again, firstly, you've got Rodri going off, but secondly, you've got Arsenal as a top team. They're going to get to grips with the game at some point, aren't they? And then that's what we saw.
- [07:09]
Charles McBee
Yeah. And that first 20 minutes was really testing for, I guess, a new look. Defence, James, really surprised not to see Ben White on the field. But that first 20 minutes, Haaland did cause a bit of havoc for that back four.
- [07:21]
Mike Finoya
Yeah, I think it was a surprise that Ben White didn't start. I think there was a little bit of a concern over his fitness. He's obviously played an enormous amount of football and he's not the kind of Guy who'll go to the coaching staff and say, I'm not feeling 100%. You kind of have to. You have to watch him in training and see is he quite as level. And I think it's interesting that Arteta felt he could bring him out. I think if you were talking about last season or the year before, there's no way he would have done that. But he's a little bit more confident in the options he's got at his disposal. Calafiori came in. I thought I had quite a tricky start. Probably beaten too easily by Savinho on the opening goal, but recovered from it really well and obviously scored that brilliant equalizer and set it back for Calafiori. Oh, it's a beauty. What a strike. I think Arsenal. There'll be a lot of pride from the Arsenal fans about kind of the resilience they showed in the second half and the way they dug in and defended their box. But I actually think what they did in the first half, in terms of going behind against City, who did make that blistering start, being able to stay in the game and not only stay in the game, but go into half time ahead, I think actually that's probably more creditable from what Arsenal, that Arsenal produced, really. I think that was a half that was really excellent. And undoubtedly the loss of Rodri was a big factor in that as well. You know, he's such an important player, especially in these big games, and I think as soon as he went off, you almost saw Arsenal's confidence begin to blossom.
- [08:43]
Charles McBee
Yeah, I want to go into Rodri in just a second. James, with the Trossard red card. Another red card. I guess many Arsenal fans might feel aggrieved by. What were your thoughts on that? Because it was a clear turning point at the stroke of half time that really changed the way that game was played.
- [09:00]
Mike Finoya
Well, I have to be honest and say that the fan. I mean, I grew up as an Arsenal supporter. The fan in me was frustrated in that moment. You know, having. Having seen Declan Rice punished for a similar incident. You know, Arsenal can't claim they don't know about this new directive. At the same time, I do have some sympathy with a footballer in that position, because you've played your whole career and it's almost force of habit. You know, players concede free kicks and either pick the ball up or knock it away. And Trossard's probably been doing that since he was 11, 12 years. He's 29 now. And I think if you look at the amount of time that elapses between the whistle blowing and him kicking it. It's kind of an act of reflex, really. It's pure instinct. And you could almost see he regrets it the moment he's done it. He almost half pulls out of it because he probably has that dawning realization. I think it's a really interesting discussion, though, because, you know, does the punishment fit the crime? I've seen Arsenal play Brighton and Manchester City this season, lose Declan Rice and Trossard to sending Zoff over these incidents. And I have to say that it does feel like it has a kind of undue impact on the outcome of games, given how minor the transgression appears. I was speaking to someone today about how other sports deal with this issue. You know, in Gaelic football, for example, you delay the restart, it advances by 10 yards higher up the pitch. Would something like that or a sin bin be a more appropriate punishment? I don't know. They're obviously not going to look at that at this point in the season. But I can understand Arsenal fans feeling a little bit like refs are coming down harder on them than on other teams. And that's probably amplified by the fact that, you know, they've seen opposition players do it and get away with it. You know, in the Brighton game, a very clear example of Xiao Pedro just booting the ball into touch and no yellow card. So the inconsistency is what will be angry in the supporters. But I do think that the discussion of, like, what is the appropriate punishment here is an interesting one.
- [10:55]
Sam Lee
It's. Yeah, it's funny you mentioned the Xiao Pedro one because there's that and there's the Sobberslai one from last weekend, isn't there The Arsenal fans have been hyped highlighting, I feel with those two, the Pedro one and the Szoboszlai one, it's on that kind of spectrum of the players have got plausible deniability. It's almost like, oh, I was in the action of kicking this ball, then you blew the whistle. And I think it's very hard for the ref to say, you've kicked the ball away there, that's a yellow card. I don't feel those two are similar to the Rice one, but I feel they are similar to the Trossard one. I do feel sympathy with Trossard. I feel like, I don't know, maybe if there's a longer distance between him kicking the ball and the ref blowing the whistle, then fair enough. But I feel like, you know, he's going to do that action Anyway, playing that ball forward, I feel it was harsh yesterday on Trossard. I feel that was more similar to the Sobers Light and Xiao Pedro ones where it's like, well, I'm going to do this action anyway and it's hard to stop me from doing it. I've got a bit of sympathy there, but I would like to mention that Docu one, which even made its way.
- [11:50]
Charles McBee
That was the one I was going to ask you about, Sam, if you wanted to.
- [11:53]
Sam Lee
Come on. What would the question have been? Out of interest? No.
- [11:56]
Charles McBee
What did you think of it? I'm not going to fall into that trap.
- [11:58]
Sam Lee
But what would you.
- [11:59]
Charles McBee
What did you think? If I'll let you put yourself in that.
- [12:01]
Sam Lee
Well, it's obvious. It's just obvious, isn't it? Like, I feel sympathy with the trust hardw1 and you can see these kind of. There's black and white areas and if it's a spectrum of. Well, I can't really prove that you tried to kick the ball away. Oh, but that looks more obvious it. That's kind of gray area. But with the Doku one, you can clearly see the ref saying the free kick needs to be taken back there. So I wouldn't muddy the waters with the Trossard thing. Xiao Pedro Sol was like any further with the Doku thing, like the other stuff that. That can come down to interpretation, but with the Doku thing you just kick the ball back. And I'm not saying this from a city perspective. You can. You can see it with your eyes. The referee's told him to put the ball back to the Arsenal half. If anything, he's speeding up the restart by getting him to take it from the right place.
- [12:43]
Mike Finoya
Arsenal were pretty sharp on the restart when Thomas Partey took that quick free kick out to the left wing, you know, so it's. It's an interesting. I'm with you on Docu actually. I. I think it's not particularly relevant. I think Arsenal's fixture list has kind of played into their feeling of persecution here a little bit because actually, if you look at the course of last season, Arsenal would have been one of the biggest proponents of this kind of new enforcing of this rule. They were a team who other opposition teams routinely time wasted against. I can remember many guys, I mean, particularly in the Champions League. Porto were the masters of the art in terms of how much the ball was actually in play. The fact that Arsenal have had this very difficult start to the season, some huge away games in which they've led and it's Been in their interests to kind of slow the pattern of the game down. The rhythm of the game down has kind of created this tension and focus on this subject. Whereas I feel like actually the enforcement of this rule over the course of the season could well be something that really benefits Arsenal.
- [13:42]
Charles McBee
Let's move on to Rodri. Sam Haaland opens up the scoring. Rodri goes off, which looked like a relatively innocuous challenge from Thomas Partey. But, you know, you know, I think it was last week or a couple of weeks ago, we did a pod with Maheta Molango, who's the CEO of the pfa, and talking about, you know, the amount of games players were playing, and Rodri was one of those of those players. I mean, this is a player he said has pretty much played two years worth of football. Are we seeing the effects of that potentially when we see a player like that go down like that?
- [14:12]
Sam Lee
I suppose it depends what the injury is in terms of it being the challenge with Party. You know, at first, when he goes down, you think, is this just more a bit of a clash off the ball as part of giving him a bit. Is Roger trying to ham it up to win a penalty or get a red card? But you see his. His leg just buckles, really, as he's making that near post run. So it depends what the injury is. If he's just. If it's just a little unfortunate twist, then you can maybe say no. If it's a more serious injury, then I think there's studies into ACL injuries and the workload on players. So you'd say it's possible, but at the moment we don't know the extent of it, but it is certainly possible. Like you say, Rodri's kind of been held up as a bit of a case study about the amount of games he's been playing. He's drawn attention to it too, for a long time in terms of saying this isn't sustainable. Just the other week, last week, he was asked what's probably the ideal amount of games to play. And he's like, well, I don't know, but maybe 40 to 50, but like 60 to 70. Definitely not. And 60 to 70 has been the kind of number he's been playing for club and country. So it's definitely possible. But also, look, players unfortunately do get serious knee injuries for other reasons too, but we'll just have to see. But I'm sure if it does, if it does prove to be that, I'm sure that would be the conclusion to draw and that might even be the conclusion that Rodri draws because obviously it's at the forefront of his mind how much football he's been playing.
- [15:31]
Charles McBee
Yeah, I was just thinking, you know, for City especially, we saw last season when he wasn't playing for City, how they sort of struggled to break teams down or even hold their shape to a certain degree. You know, the BBC just dropped a really interesting stat. It says with one defeat for club or country in the past 18 months, Manchester City's Rodri. It's imperative, you know, in that time. This is a player who's won the Champions League, two Premier League titles, the FA Cup, UEFA Super Cup, Club World Cup, Nations League and Euros as well. I mean, the linchpin in all these teams that he's played in. How important is that loss going to be depending on what the injury is?
- [16:05]
Sam Lee
This is why I think for all the, all of the, the knock on effects of yesterday's game, you know, what Arsenal can take from it, what City can take from it, the mentality side of it, what it means for the title race. Like we saw last year when Arsenal beat City early in the season, which was obviously an important win for them, it would have done something for their belief, but in the end it didn't matter. Not because that game didn't matter, but because there's loads of other games. The biggest influence on all the other games coming up now stemming from yesterday is not going to be whether City scored on the last minute or Arsenal played really well with 11 and then with 10. It's what happens with Rodri. So you've listed all those things that City have done with him and the one defeat while he's in the team. But they've got loads of other players who won all those trophies and haven't really been defeated. What really highlights it is the small sample size when he's not been there. And last year he didn't play four Premier League games and they lost three of them. And they didn't just lose three of them, but they basically had to reshuffle everything. And that was part of the problem. You start tweaking everything and you don't quite look yourself. That was one of the games we're talking about, was the Arsenal game and the week before they lost at Wolves. But this season, you know, he didn't come back till late after another injury with with Spain and they won their first four games of the season. He only came on for the, the second half of the Brentford game, which was last weekend. So this season they've suggested. You know, it's not as much of a problem with Gundogan back. They also have another option in there. They have an option that understands very well what they need to do. So it's not necessarily that kind of lose 75 of your matches without him. If they are without him, whether they're without him for two weeks, three weeks, or months, it's not as bad as that. But it's like the second half yesterday. If in that very specific circumstance of the ball keeps coming to the edge of the box, we need somebody to have a shot, who's he going to be?
- [17:45]
Charles McBee
Oh, Roger's not there.
- [17:46]
Sam Lee
Yeah, these are, you know, there's, there's a million different things he's good at on the pitch. And would it be a blow if he's not there? Yes. Or 100. Would it be as bad as last season's numbers suggest? Maybe not. But it could be the difference between winning the title and not if he's out for a few months.
- [18:08]
James McNicholas
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- [19:47]
Aura
This podcast is brought to you by Aura. By the time you hear about a data breach, your information has already been exposed for months. On average, companies take 277 days to report a breach. That's nine months where hackers have access to your personal data. That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Aura is an all in one digital safety solution that monitors the dark web for your phone number, email and Social Security number, sending real time alerts if your info is found. It also includes a vpn, password manager and data broker removal. To help keep you safe for a limited time. Aura is offering a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked. All for free@aura.com safety that's aura.com safety to sign up and protect your loved ones. That's a u r a.com safety terms apply. Check the site for details.
- [20:45]
Mike Finoya
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akinwaleere.
- [20:49]
Charles McBee
Look, there was as much action on the touchlines as there was actually on the pitch. As we've mentioned a little earlier on in the pod. Yet at the end, James, you know, there was clear admiration between Guardiola and Arteta. What do you make of this? Is this like. For me, I'm watching it thinking, are they just being like really political? Because deep down inside they've both got it didn't get more out of that game.
- [21:09]
Mike Finoya
Yeah, I don't know is the honest truth. I mean, I don't know their personal dynamic. My hunch is kind of the same as yours. I do think that beneath this sort of veneer of respect, and I'm sure there's, it's founded upon truth. But I think if anything, because of that respect and because of that past, because of their history, I think they are incredibly motivated to beat each other. Particularly in the case of Arteta. I think you find that understandable. You know, this is the guy who was his mentor and I think having that one upmanship of a win at the Etihad would mean everything to him. I think there were moments during the game yesterday on the touchline where it felt like it was really going to go off and we were going to see, you know, the gloves, the gloves metaphorically come off between Arteta and Guardiola. And then I was quite almost surprised when the full time whistle blew. Instant respect handshakes, complimentary words. In the press conferences, they always get back to that for now, this is.
- [22:05]
Charles McBee
One of the best teams of the.
- [22:06]
Sam Lee
World, Arsenal, but by far all, all action to how they defend, how they attack. In short, in long and many things, they're really, really, really, really good.
- [22:16]
Charles McBee
Pep was just calling your team one of the best teams in the world and that he was happy to get a point after such a crazy up and down game. What's your reflections on it?
- [22:25]
Sam Lee
Yeah, that they are probably the best team in the world. That's my reaction.
- [22:28]
Mike Finoya
But I, I think that's probably when we know this rivalry is truly kind of hit. Boiling point is when the politeness between the two men in the dugout drops. I don't know what you think, Sam.
- [22:38]
Sam Lee
Yeah, there was a time at some point in the game, Arteta seemed to be like wafting his hands dismissively, but in Guardiola's direction. I was looking around, I was like, is there a player warming up behind Guardiola? Is there a set piece coach or something? But it does seem to be in Guardiola's direction and it just made me wonder after the game, where is the line for Guardiola to think, actually we are really good mates and we do get on, but actually now this is a bit much. And obviously for Arteta, where's the line for him? Well, I've got great respect for you, really appreciate what you did in my coaching career, but I don't like how your team does this, I don't like how your coaches do that or whatever. Where is the line with that friendship? Because it feels like, you know, there comes a point, I can't think of a specific example, but there might come a point with a mate, you think, hold on a minute, I thought we were mates, like, at what point is all fair in love and war? And then you go, well, hold on a minute, like, that's a bit much. And obviously, well, whichever corner you're in, the idea of what a bit much is is going to differ. But there might come a point at some point. But you're right in the press conference when they can calm down. They obviously went back to the platitudes. But I thought one thing that was interesting because normally Guardiola on the touchline could be very argumentative and combative and the players can just be getting on with it. But. But it seemed yesterday he was in that situation where it was actually, my players are in danger of bubbling over a bit here. We really need to keep 11 on the pitch. We can't give away fouls, we can't let the game get delayed anymore. And he kind of tried to take on that mantle, a bit of calming everyone down. I think when City equalized, I think Bernardo may have tried to go over to have a word with some of the Arsenal staff and Guardio was like, just forget about all this. That's not important. He obviously realized yesterday that he couldn't afford City to get involved in that too much. Obviously they did afterwards with the. And stuff.
- [24:22]
Charles McBee
Let's talk about how both managers, I guess, approach the game tactically and I guess different types of tactics based on a really definitive point, which was the red card for Trossard. But. But James, you know, after that happened, coming into the second half, Arteta had to pot a roadblock in surely. I mean, there's. How else do you approach a game like that? You're two one up, you would love to win at any cost.
- [24:45]
Mike Finoya
Yes, and I think Arsenal are actually well suited to play in that fashion. I mean, at times they almost had six defenders across the back line with Martinelli dropping in as an auxiliary left back as well. I have to be honest, I'm not a coach, but I was looking at it and thinking, I don't see how this is going to fly. I mean, you know, Arsenal had no outlet whatsoever. Like, not even like Kai Havertz stood on the halfway line to hold it up. And even Martinelli was being pegged right back to their credit. They made life very difficult for Manchester City and they are exceptional, I think, in terms of defending their own penal. But doing that for 45 minutes is exhausting, physically and mentally. Arsenal, you know, had to make a number of substitutions and in that final moment, I think may have been guilty of just switching off ever so slightly, which, you know, you can understand given the. How draining it is to defend like that for more than 45 minutes against, you know, the best team in the world. The pressure eventually told and City got that equalizer. But stepping back from it as much as that would have felt like a real gut punch to Arsenal. I think holding City to a draw despite being down to 10 men from the end of the first half is actually a very decent result and one that should stand them in good stead over the course of the season.
- [25:59]
Charles McBee
Yeah, I mean, Sam, a lot of this we're talking about is around what ifs as well. You know, if Rodri stayed on the field, would Manchester City have inevitably won that match or whatever? Right. Should City be worried about the way Arsenal scored, especially with the set piece, you know, especially Nicholas Jova being on the other Side, former City employee that was potentially, if that game ended up playing the way it did, that, that fine margin that Arsenal potentially have stepped up this, this season.
- [26:27]
Sam Lee
Yeah, I think from City's point of view, you'd be more worried about the first half than the second. I think the second half is a very specific set of circumstances where, like James says, that's not really Arsenal being forced to do something they don't want to do. They're very good at doing that. They're a very rare example of a team who can play amazing football with the ball, but that can dig in as well. You don't see many teams do that. It's not something that you want to do, to be fair, but it's not something they, they can do or would try to same. You know, we talk about Liverpool before. They're not really a backs against the wall team. Nobody would ever expect them to be. No, nobody would ever expect a team, you know, Barcelona, whoever it may be, a team that's so good on the ball to dig in as well. But Arsenal can do that. And then, you know, they made it so difficult. So the second half, City could maybe analyze some things, but that was so difficult. But in the first half, when he was 11 against 11. Yeah, you look at like James saying, it seems incomprehensible, doesn't it, that Arsenal would switch off at the last minute, having done so well. But for the, the free kick for the first goal, the controversial one where Michael Oliver called over Carl Walker and Saka and then said, right, carry on. That's obviously not ideal, you know, to basically drag a player out of position. But then, you know, speaking to a mate earlier who's a former pro, whenever he went over to a ref in that situation, you'd tell somebody else to stand on the ball and you think, why would City, he was so streetwise themselves and they would know what to look out for. Guardiola said afterwards, we talked because Arsenal are so fast restarting the game, obviously, ironically, with the controversy over time wasting, because there obviously was that as well. But that's when they need to be fast, they're fast. When they need to be slow, they're slow. And that's fine. But City talked about the need to, you know, be careful because Arsenal, they will start the game quickly, they will try and catch you out. And obviously they switched off in that moment as well. So there's little things to look at. Like you say with the set pieces, they had Doku on Gabrielle, where he headed over. Then they changed to Walker. And Walker wouldn't necessarily been looking at Gabrielle's run for Doku and how he got there, but surely there would have been work done on the training ground to be like, this is the run he likes to make. If not, well, whether, how, however we got there, that's where he was five minutes ago. And the thing is with Walker, he doesn't help himself because you wouldn't really be paying so much attention to it. But he's poking him in the stomach, like that kind of stuff. You're poking him in someone to try and get this advantage and then he just does you with a basic dummy. Those are the kind of things that, yeah, like in terms of the emotions, who's happier? City are obviously going to be happier because they scored at the end, they were happy, Arsenal were gutted. You're devastated, you'd imagine. But they're all professionals, they all handle this in different ways. And ultimately they're all gonna have to go into tactical meetings with their managers. And, you know, Guardiola might have more to point out and say, we need to improve on this, we need to improve on that. Whereas Arteta would be like, look, boys, we did this really well. We did this really well. We went down to 10 men, we did this really well. And the Arsenal players, they'll still be disappointed. But it sounds like loser talk, doesn't it? Take the positives from it. But there are loads of positives Arsenal can take from it.
- [29:11]
Charles McBee
Yeah, I guess one of the positives as well, James, and we've spoken about this on, on this podcast, is, is how the goals are shared around with this team. Obviously no recognizable center forwarder, especially in the transfer window, and no one coming in, but yet two goals from two defenders, one a brand new signing.
- [29:27]
Mike Finoya
Yeah, fantastic goal from Califuri. I mean, it was real sort of postage stamp stuff. It's the kind of. The only shot he could have pulled off the way the ball came to him on that angle and yet he executed it superbly. I don't think that's why he's been bought necessarily, to be fair. But they do have to share the goals around and it's an interesting situation for them at the moment without Martin Odegaard. You know, they lost him during the international break with Norway, ankle problem, the club keeping very quiet on quite how bad it is, but there's no sign of him appearing imminently. And Arsenal are having to adapt. You know, they're having to change. He's so integral to what they do. And that right sided partnership with Ben White, Odegaard just inside him and Sakura on the outside has been at the absolute heart of Arsenal's approach play over the last couple of years. In fact, I do wonder if Odegaard had been fit, would they have stuck with Ben White potentially, you know, to keep those relationships intact. But they're playing very differently at the moment. They've got Kai Havertz in a sort of floating midfield role from the right hand side who's a very different player from Odegaard, Trossard dropping in, you know, and him and Havertz sort of combining and forming almost a front two at times. You know, there are a lot of moments in the game, especially out possession, where Arsenal just look a classic 442-team. But when they have games coming up like the home game against Leicester they've got this weekend, you know, it'll be interesting to see how they fare when they're trying to break down a team who defend deep, you know, in mass ranks, which they'll get plenty of times. They are at Stadium this season when they're facing that without Martin Odegaard. I think that's going to be fascinating to see how they combat that, how they deal with it and how they unlock defenses because historically he's been so important to them.
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- [32:31]
Mike Finoya
This is the Athletic FC podcast with I.O. acamolera.
- [32:40]
Charles McBee
Sam. We've spoken about what is emerging as a rivalry. Guardiola spoke about it too after the match and I guess my question here is about the quality of both sides. Do you think they're both equally matched, especially that first 20 minutes, for instance. You know, we saw City just take it to another level. Do you think these teams are really closely matched at this point or do City also have a couple more notches to their game?
- [33:06]
Sam Lee
Well, yeah, they do because it's the start of the season, isn't it? And City always get stronger. But in terms of are they closely matched? They have been for a couple of years. Especially obviously the end of the season when Arsenal were leading with the World cup in it and obviously City went on to win it. There was a bit of a gap at the end, points wise, but Arsenal played very well. A lot of times when City couldn't really get going and they overtook them at the end last season, it didn't really come down to much, did it? It like it. Maybe it did in hindsight come down to that draw at the Etihad, but if you're talking about one or two games, then we know they're closely matched. Arsenal again, obviously this season was funny because after they dropped points against Brighton, everyone was kind of writing them off and City had won like three games. Three is three games. Like we, we do get carried away very easily. Liverpool lost last weekend, but now sitting us on drop points and Liverpool won. So they're back in it. But look, but we don't need to just look at this game this weekend. Arsenal are obviously very close to City's level. There have been times in the season when they've played better than City. There may have been seasons where they played better than City for longer periods but not got over the line for whatever reason. They're obviously very close. But yeah, City obviously got levels to go to because they just always improve as the season goes on. They've started very well but they will get better. But you'd imagine that'll be the case for Arsenal as well. And they're still there battling. We saw that yesterday. They obviously, if they felt like they had a point to prove, and that starts with Havertz on Rodri in the first four seconds, like they backed it up. They did back it up. They didn't get the result in the end, they didn't get the win. But they backed it up. They went there and they put in their performance. Two different performances with 11 men and 10 men. They showed what they were about and they'll have to react to that.
- [34:43]
Charles McBee
Yeah, for sure. James. In terms of psychology, football is based on momentum and psychology. That's three away games for Arsenal now, one win to Tottenham, an away draw to Atalanta and also an away draw to Manchester City. Psychologically, how important is it not to have lost at the Etihad yesterday?
- [35:02]
Mike Finoya
I think it makes a difference for sure. I mean, I'd also point out their Premier League start. You know, the three away games they've had have been Spurs, Villa and City. They've taken seven points from nine. I think that's a really excellent return. Obviously they had a disappointing draw home to Brighton, which is a game they probably would have expected to win. But I think it's been a strong start from Arsenal and a relatively tricky fix list to navigate. So I think they're in a good position. I think they will get better too. You've got to remember they're playing currently without two of their first choice midfield players. You'd imagine Martin Odegaard, obviously the captain, and Mikel Marino, who we've not seen yet, who's injured in training in the run up to what would have been his debut. The plan A for Arsenal was to kind of put those two alongside Declan Rice in their first choice midfield three. We're quite a way off seeing that. So they've got that to come. Califuri's just made his first Premier League start. Could he settle into that left back role? Could that evolve how the team build up from the back? I think there's certainly more to come. There's certainly more to come and it's going to be fascinating. I mean, you know, City have such. Set such an incredible standard in the Premier League that here we are in September, you know, wondering about the permutations of this result on the title race.
- [36:14]
Sam Lee
Right.
- [36:14]
Mike Finoya
It's almost absurd. And Liverpool fans would say, yeah, yeah, yeah. And Liverpool fans would say the same thing, right. City have set such a high standard that as the challenger in this scenario, you agonize over absolutely every point because the margins can be that fine come, come May. So let's see. I think, I think I'll reiterate that as disappointed as Arsenal were by the timing of that goal yesterday, I still think this is a performance that does them a lot of credit and stands them in good stead.
- [36:45]
Charles McBee
Yeah. While we're talking about Liverpool then, Sam, you know, what kind of rivalry is this we've got with Manchester City and Arsenal? Guardiola spoke about obviously Klopp leaving and then Arsenal now being the contenders. And also Bernardo Silva's definitely had his, his chat on this. Where do you see this rivalry in comparison to Liverpool versus Manchester City?
- [37:06]
Sam Lee
Well, suddenly spiked after yesterday. I've seen some City fans saying they. They missed the rivalry with Liverpool and that Arsenal are more unbearable. I'd say steady on with that kind of talk because I don't know. I don't know if they'd really want to go back to those, to those days with Liverpool because on a lot of occasions, look, we talked about moments in seasons where maybe Arsenal are better than City. There was a lot of of seasons where Liverpool may be better than City as well, and a lot of games when City were better than Liverpool as well. But again, City will just win the title regardless. But, yeah, there's definitely a spike after yesterday. There's a lot of needle added to it yesterday. You know, if City were to win at the Emirates, never mind the context of the season, that would mean a lot to the fans now, for sure. It would obviously mean a lot to the players. Even last season, the Nicholas Yova and Carl Walker thing, it was bubbling away. It's obviously erupted now. But in terms of the quality of the opposition, you can't deny that they're up there in slightly different ways, performance style and play style. Sorry. But yeah, in terms of the enmity now between the fan bases, I would say it's going to be up there for sure. Because, look, we're talking about it now Monday afternoon. Every time I look at Twitter, there's something new that I've not seen from before. There's another argument. There's another angle. There's something. There's Arsenal fans bringing up teams kicking the ball away. They're now analyzing whether Karl Walker was actually in the right position or not, whether he was ready or not. The City fans responding. They're celebrating what Harland's been saying. The Arsenal fans are criticizing it. This is going to go on now.
- [38:27]
Charles McBee
James, did yesterday feel like, especially with the heat and the needle feel more like a Manchester United Arsenal clash of the old Fenger versus Fergie.
- [38:37]
Mike Finoya
It felt like it was headed in that direction. I mean, there's a clip that's doing the rounds now of Erling Harland and Michael Arteta having a little discussion after the game. And. But these are the sort of the intrigues that I think as football fans, we kind of love. Right. I think, you know, you want that dynamic to be present and the stage is set perfectly for the game in February. You know, when they go to the Emirates, I mean, if the title race is still a thing then and still close by then, it's going to feel absolutely enormous and there's going to be a lot of drama and focus on that game in Terms of United Arsenal. Yeah, maybe. A friend said to me that that yesterday reminded him a little bit of the. The draw that Arsenal had at Old Trafford at the start of the 2003, 2004 season. And yeah, I mean, if Martin Keown had been on the pitch yesterday, maybe it would have boiled over. But. But, you know, it's a different generation. I think we're way off there. There was a lot of history that led into that game, but I think we are getting there. You know, somebody like Rodri, for example, I don't think it's any coincidence that Kai Havertz collided with him in those first 10 seconds of the game. Think that's probably got an awful lot to do with what Rodri said at the end of last season about the two teams mentality. And you know, they felt. City felt they'd win the league when Arsenal came and played for a draw at the Etihad. That's the kind of thing that Mikel Arteta, being the manager he is, will draw attention to and will try to use his motivation. And even if he doesn't, players are all aware. Right. And I do feel that these kind of personal rivalries. Again, talk about Haaland with Gabrielle and Saliba. There's no way he came into this game yesterday unaware of that narrative. And that's why he so relished that goal. And that's probably why he bounced the ball off the back of Gabriel's head after City got their equalizer, you know, so you've got all these subplots and I think it's. It should make for a really compelling season.
- [40:31]
Sam Lee
Yes.
- [40:32]
Charles McBee
Sam, were you surprised by how emotional it got with Arsenal fans and, and City fans? But also I know James has alluded to it, you know, that. That stay humble line from Haaland to Arteta at the end of the match. I mean, that's quite cheeky, bro.
- [40:45]
Sam Lee
It is. And again, it shows a level of how personal it's got. We talked about the Bernardo Silva comments. Akanji did the mixer as well. So obviously there was a bit of an embargo on that that's just coming to light now as well as we recording talking about they're always looking for drama to fall on the floor to defending their own box and try and score on a set piece. It's come to light as well that, you know, when Lewis Skelly was booked, when he was still on the.
- [41:10]
Charles McBee
Yeah. On the sideline. Yeah.
- [41:11]
Sam Lee
It was for going behind the goal and talking to Raya and then Raya went Down injured. And Arteta had the team talk, which is something that City know Arsenal were doing last season. You know, getting the goalkeeper to go down early or they believed they were doing it getting the goalkeeper to go down early so then he could have a little team talk and rearrange if, you know the game wasn't going to plan or Arteta needed to change something. But then. Then City haven't really complained about that publicly and they wouldn't because they've also done it as well. This is the kind of the situation we're in now. But this is the thing with football rivalries. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong. If you're City and you're pissed off about what Arsenal are doing, it doesn't matter if they're right or wrong. If you're Arsenal and you're pissed off about what City you're doing, it doesn't matter if you're right or wrong. This is just how you feel. This is what rivalry is all about. The two teams never going to come together and agree. This is just what we've got to live with now. Like, we're Man United always right against Arsenal. We're Arsenal always right against Man United. No, the circumstances of the games, there was rivalry, there was all this kind of stuff, like the stay humble stuff. Now, the latest example we're seeing, but by the time this is published, there'll be another one. I'm surprised it kicked off so much. But again, that have a shoulder on Rodri. It set the tone. Everyone inside the stadium understood exactly what that meant. The Arsenal fans were chanting defiantly. City fans were chanting along the lines of we're the champions. You bottled it, that kind of stuff in those two minutes when Rodri was down, everybody knew what it meant for that game, and that's exactly how it continued. But not just. Just for that game, but probably for all the others between the two teams in the foreseeable future.
- [42:33]
Charles McBee
Yeah, I guess the Premier League win for pure entertainment. James, just to finish on this, both teams you mentioned don't meet till February. Is it, dare I say it, about perfection for Arsenal up until that point? Because we do know what Manchester City love to do. They do love going on these really incredible runs when we feel the chips are down.
- [42:52]
Mike Finoya
Yeah. Although to be fair, Arsenal produced a pretty extraordinary run of their own in the second half of last season. And but for one game, you know, arguably the home defeat to Aston Villa would have been champions themselves. So they'll feel, especially with players coming back from injury. They can be strong in the latter part of the season. It's just about delivering consistency now and I think they've given themselves a great foundation to push on and accumulate some points. You know, there's some very, there's some games coming up that they would expect to win and that they need to win and where the onus will be on them to take the game to the opponent a little more. Again, as I said earlier, it'd be fascinating to see how they do that without Martin Odegaard. If they're able to do that. I think they will. I think this, this team looked very resolute, very strong, incredibly organized, incredibly committed and hungrier than ever to topple City. So it's going to be close. I mean, I've said of this Arsenal team for the last few years, as someone who's watched Arsenal teams go on and win the league, albeit not for 20 years, there's a lot about this team that you would say it's a bit of a cliche, but they have the hallmark of champions, right? The problem is they're in a league with Manchester City who are just on a different level to virtually anybody else we've ever seen in the Premier League. So despite all those positive indicators, you can never really say with conviction, with confidence, oh, yeah, they're going to do it, because it's just forever difficult to look past City.
- [44:18]
Charles McBee
Yeah. Gents, let's leave it there. Sam James, thank you so much for your time and do not forget to rate and review the pod. We'll be back tomorrow.
- [44:25]
Mike Finoya
All right, you've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroo and Jay Beale. The executive producer was Aidy Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
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This podcast is brought to you by Aura. By the time you hear about a data breach, your information has already been exposed for months. On average, companies take 277 days to report a breach. That's nine months where hackers have access to your personal data. That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Aura is an all in one digital safety solution that monitors the dark web for your phone number, email and Social Security number, sending real time alerts if your info is found. It also includes a vpn, password manager and data broker removal. To help keep you safe for a limited time. Aura is offering a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked. All for free@aura.com safety that's aura.com safety to sign up and protect your loved ones. That's a u r a.com safety terms apply. Check the site for details.
- [45:50]
Mike Finoya
ACAST powers the World's Best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend.
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Sam Lee
Hey guys, we have an exciting announcement about our podcast.
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Sam Lee
We love getting to talk to experts.
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Mike Finoya
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Sam Lee
And we also love hearing from you.
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Sam Lee
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Mike Finoya
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