IO Akim Mulere (3:28)

Yeah, I just looking at Chelsea's results of late, Phil, I mean they've only picked up what, six points from their last six Premier League games and it looked like things were sort of starting to unravel. I just thinking about the importance of this resort to get back into that top four.

Enzo Maresca (3:44)

Yeah, I think probably more important to Lance the Boyle if I can say that without over exaggerating the situation they were in as opposed to being in fourth place. Specifically when any time we've spoken about Chelsea this season we've, we've referenced the fact that fourth or above is, is what they want. I know there was that little flutter where the form was so good that it, it provoked a little bit of title talk. That's, that's kind of faded away and not necessarily a bad thing for Chelsea, I don't think. I don't mean in the sense they wouldn't want to win the title, but I think it was beyond them that this season, whereas fourth place definitely isn't. I did have a look back through the results because I think they've been good this season as a whole and this is the first real kind of slump that they've had. And in terms of the table as well, the pressure is coming on a little bit because of the fact that, you know, Nottingham Forest have shaken things up in a big way in the top four. And whereas I think if you had Liverpool and Arsenal going at it for the title and Newcastle, Chelsea and City in behind, I think Chelsea feel pretty quietly confident at the moment that they could make a top four finish theirs as it is at the moment, it might be that fourth is all they have to go at. So, so they need to stay in the mix. But it was, it was an important result. I do kind of feel like they were in a position to beat Crystal palace, they were in a position to beat Fulham and I totally understand that they didn't and they go down as poor results. But I feel like Ipswich Away was the only real shocker in there. Wolves are so poor that had they lost last night or dropped points last night, that would have fallen into much the the same category. But it was a good win for them and a steady win.

IO Akim Mulere (5:21)

Yeah, just a quick one. Liam. It's still, you know, let's still remember, regardless of how Chelsea have started this season, this team is still trying to find ways to click together. It's still a learning process. And I'd watched the match yesterday and there's still a moment I can't remember who it was. It was Neto and Kukureya. Kukurea played like a blind pass and Neto just didn't read it. They're still trying to find what that rhythm looks.

Phil Hay (5:43)

Yeah. And especially when the combinations change a little bit from game to game. Mareska has done that often to Chelsea's benefit this season. He's been criticized by some supporters for not tweaking in game and not reacting to what opponents are doing. But he has often changed things from match to match, both in terms of the way Chelsea line up and in terms of the personnel. And against Wolves we saw it again with Neto lining up on the left, which set up a different type of connection with Marc Cucurea who was inverting into midfield. And as you say, IO that wasn't flawless. It isn't always flawless and not everything Maresca is doing is working. I don't think Chelsea were entirely convincing against Wolves. They had a big wobble towards the end of the first half, punctuated by that absolute gift of a goal from from a corner that Robert Sanchez will certainly not want to look back on. But unlike recent weeks, they found a way to rest the momentum back towards them. And they scored at key times in the second half to really take the jeopardy out of the game. And that's something they haven't been doing in recent weeks. And I think that's been the most alarming thing for a lot of supporters is that a lot of these games were following a pattern where Chelsea were starting well. Mareska's plan A from the first minute was working, but then as the circumstances of the game changed, sometimes as as opponents changed their approach, Chelsea didn't react well enough. There were signs maybe that fatigue was was becoming an issue because Maresca is relying on a pretty small core of players and other teams were finishing stronger and getting the goals to reflect that. So this was a really, really important win. Newcastle are coming for them Manchester City have woken up and Bournemouth are apparently coming for everyone. So it really is an increasingly heated top four race and it's fun to watch. But I think it's a bit more stressful for Chelsea to be a part of now than it was a month ago when people were talking about them on the fringes of the title race.

IO Akim Mulere (8:01)

I find it quite ironic that Liam talks about Maresca operating with a relatively small squad when we know the breadth of players they've got. Phil in general, and this brings me to my next point really. You know, Chelsea do have injuries, especially in defense as well. Wesley Fofana, naturally we've spoken about before and quite widely documented that he's injured, but also, you know, it's a position they're quite light on. Do you think Chelsea, with all their riches of players still quite top heavy when it comes to personnel?

Enzo Maresca (8:30)

I would say that they are. An awful lot of money has gone on attacking players and I do feel like it's, it's that end of the field that is has really driven them this season to a large extent anyway. That's not to say though that some of those investments haven't been particularly good. I mean, every time I watch Cole Palmer, he looks like if anybody is going to run the show for Chelsea, it will be him. And he settled into this 10 role that Maresque has given him in a really impressive way this season. It just looks like the tailor made role for him and I think he'll stick there for a long time now. Even players like Nicholas Jackson, he kind of has the capacity to be excellent and terrible in the same 90 minutes. But you know, when he plays well, he looks like a really good dangerous forward. So yes, they probably have left themselves a bit undercooked at the back. I guess what you would say is that you, you can't recruit, you can't recruit everywhere to the necessarily to the exact depth that you want to. But I think given how much transfer business has gone on at Chelsea and how much recruitment there has been, that's the one area where more could be done and one area where they definitely need a little bit more depth. I think it's hard to get away from the fact that Robert Sanchez in goal feels more and more like a bone of contention. Liam referenced the error last night. There have been mistakes from him and Maresca seems to be in this position that managers head coaches quite often get into where the backing a keeper that people around them seem to be losing faith in or certainly the crowd seem to be losing faith with and Every time I hear Marescu speak about Sanchez, he sounds like he's going to back him to the hilt. But you do feel like that is going to become an issue that's going to have to be addressed somewhere down the line.

Phil Hay (10:11)

It's got to the point. I think we're past the point. Phil of Stamford Bridge losing trust in Robert Sanchez. I think they lost trust quite a while ago in him as a viable number one goalkeeper at Chelsea. To the point where, against Wolves.

Enzo Maresca (10:27)

Do you think that's fair, Liam? Do you think it's fair that they have.

Phil Hay (10:32)

I don't know if it's ever fair, the kind of stuff that footballers are subjected to in the heat of competition sometimes. I mean, there was a point early in the second half against Wolves where Rhys James headed the ball back to Sanchez and there were ironic cheers from the Chelsea fans that he caught the back header. So that's where we are. There is no trust in the stadium for him. And I think it is a bit harsh. These things are always a bit harsh. But Sanchez also hasn't helped himself. And when I say that, I'm not talking about necessarily the error that he made for the Wolves goal because he. He occasionally lets in goals that he shouldn't. And I think, you know, a lot of Premier League goalkeepers do that. That was something of an unusual error for him because he's. He's basically under instruction to punch the ball clear, as a lot of goalkeepers are with these in swinging corners that are now all the rage in the Premier League. And that was a rare occasion when he tried to catch with disastrous consequences, but where he hasn't helped himself. And there were examples of this in the Wolves game, and there have been examples of this in pretty much every game this season that Sanchez has played. So with the ball at his feet, yes, he's under instruction from Maresca to be bold, to be brave, to be progressive with his passing, to get Chelsea on the front foot, to play through and around pressure where necessary to turn defence into attack. But his decision making of what passes to play and when in the game to attempt them has been highly erratic. And there was a moment in that Wolves game that stuck with me, which won't make any highlight packages because it didn't come to anything, but it very nearly did. Where in the last few minutes of the game, it's 31 to Chelsea. Both teams have made a raft of substitutions. There is no life in the game, really, unless something happens to give it life and the ball comes back to Sanchez and Rather than kick it long, which I know Maresca doesn't want him to do, or find a safer short pass to one of the flanks, he. He basically passes the ball low through the middle of the pitch and it goes through Larson's legs just. And if it hadn't have escaped Larson, Wolf strikers basically in on goal. And it's a chance for three, two out of nothing. A completely self inflicted wound. And there have been lots of moments like that with, with Sanchez and that is really where the lack of trust at Stamford Bridge comes in. I think more than anything else, they don't trust him with the ball at his feet to make good decisions. It's less about his technique because he's shown the capacity to make incredible passes this season. I remember one against Wolves at Molyneux where he, in the lead up to Cole Palmer's brilliant lob in that game, he plays this incredible pass right into the left channel, 60 yards right onto the boot of Nicholas Jackson to set up that Palmer goal. So he's clearly technically very adept. But it's more about the decision making that Chelsea fans just don't trust. And when you don't have that or when you've lost it, I don't remember many examples of players, particularly goalkeepers, getting it back.

Enzo Maresca (13:54)

Well, I mean, on that note, I mean, the odd thing about Sanchez is that this is deja vu after Brighton, isn't it? I mean, he was the goalkeeper at Brighton, but Roberto de Zerbi came in and had the most pronounced passing style that I think any of us have seen for, for years in the Premier League and decided, you know, kind of point blank that Sanchez wasn't up to it and wasn't going to be his keeper and Julie replaced him. And it seems odd that he's now finding himself in virtually exactly the same situation at Chelsea.

Phil Hay (14:23)

Yeah, it is strange. And he was recruited at Chelsea by Ben Roberts, global head of goalkeeping, who was basically the man who discovered him and helped make him what he was at Brighton before going to Chelsea. So he has a big advocate at Cobham and I think that's been a key reason why Chelsea have persisted with him as long as they have. Although of course they've signed other goalkeepers in that time. I mean, Georgia Petrovic took his spot last season. Philip Jorgensen was signed last summer and has had kind of mixed performances, I would say some good, some not so impressive in his opportunities this year. They signed Mike Penders, the giant Belgian teenager from Genk who won't arrive until next summer. And probably is a longer term development project, but one that they've got really high hopes for. So they, they don't have all their eggs in the Sanchez basket. But when you're talking about the starting goalkeeper right now, Maresca has been absolutely steadfast in everything he said publicly. I think very mindful of the fact that he feels he has to back his goalkeeper. It is such a confidence position that he's not going to change for the games that matter. Sanchez is going to play and as long as he does, I think there's going to be this sense of unease among Chelsea supporters that something is going to go wrong.

IO Akim Mulere (15:44)

Yeah. And from I guess a personal stance and I know we've been talking about Sanchez for a while, but I'm just thinking in terms of where Chelsea are trying to get to and if top four is that realistic outcome, Liam, can someone like Sanchez prevent that from actually happening? Because those mistakes cost points, you know, and, and you need full concentration at all points in the Premier League to be able to, to gather any sort of momentum. There's nothing wrong with Chelsea, Breen, brilliant attacking. But then if when it comes to it defensively they're lacking something, that top four surely is in jeopardy.

Phil Hay (16:17)

Well, it is hard to quantify the kind of plus minus of this. And this is something Maresca raised in his interview after the game. He was asked by, in his Sky Sports interview, you know, that's four errors that Sanchez has made leading to a goal. Only Muric has made more this season among Premier League goalkeepers. And he said, yeah, but how many times has he saved us with the way that he plays? And so I think the mistakes obviously stick in the mind. There have been times where Sanchez has played good passes that have worked for Chelsea and you'd really have to go through it and weigh up what he's giving versus what he's taking away. But what is clear when you look at the Premier League table is that Chelsea's margin for error in the top four race is gone. They had a pretty healthy one a month ago when they were in second and I did write at the time, are they a false second? You know, are they just kind of the best of a kind of meh chasing pack behind Liverpool? And that's probably proven to be the case, but their form has dropped off. Newcastle have just been winning every week until, until their stumble against Bournemouth and Manchester City have kind of remembered that they probably should be winning every week or close to every week given the talent that they have. So it is looking much more formidable now. And every mistake, whether it's the goalkeeper or something that happens higher up the pitch, could cost Chelsea in a way that it didn't initially feel like it might do in terms of their Champions League qualification hopes.

IO Akim Mulere (17:51)

Okay, I'm just thinking about the injuries they've got, Phil, especially at center back. Fafana Badiashile, Levi Cole will obviously Chalabas come back to sort of plug in that gap. But, you know, something a lot of people will say is that Chelsea have also let a lot of really good academy players leave the club. Timori Guehi, who's now at Crystal palace, who, maybe he might come back, who knows? But, you know, in hindsight, yeah, you can go, maybe we let them go. But based on circumstances, based on manager, based on coaches or based on club ethos, players do come and go. But you do think actually that they've always had a fair bit of riches when it comes to academy players coming through and perhaps they could be plugging in that gap for them right now.

Enzo Maresca (18:33)

They could. Although you're right, timing and circumstances is always important with this. I don't doubt that when, when the down on numbers, gehe. Even when they're not down on numbers, gehe would. Would help significantly tomorrow potentially too. But I mean, when I think back to Tomori going to Milan and Liam will correct me here if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure they had Rudiger, they had Thiago Silva, they had Zuma on the books as well, I think. And it wasn't as if Tomori was 17, 18, 19, you know, he was into his 20s. He was in the position where he was going to start losing years of his career, important years of his career, if Chelsea weren't going to play him. So, so I understand why that that happened. And, and it's, it's probably not one of those deals where you can look three or four years on and say, oh, if only he was still here now. You know, he's had a very, very good stint at Milan and it's spot out for him. So, yes, I mean, a slew of defensive players from the academy would, would definitely help. But like we say, it's not as if Chelsea haven't spent money. It's not as if they haven't been active in the transfer market. It's not as if they haven't looked to, to, to. To work on the squad that way. So there are players out there that they could pay for and they could sign. And I think to be fair to the academy it does yield the odd player and it does earn Chelsea money. It's probably one of the more productive around it at that level. But there's no denying that they are short in that position. And you would think, particularly when it comes down to the summer, there'll be a fair amount of focus on it.

Phil Hay (20:01)

Well, in tomorrow's case, he left on loan to Milan with an option to buy, I think three days before Thomas Tuchel took over as Chelsea's head coach. And within six months Chelsea had won the Champions League with the best defensive record in Europe over that span. So it was clear the talent that was in front of him, I think that was very much a case of circumstances. And within 18 months Temuri was also a Serie A champion. So I think no one can really say that didn't work out for them in the short to medium term. But this is, this is a longer term institutional problem at Chelsea and not just with defenders, about academy players not getting chances. It stretches back to the Abramovich era, but if you look at their current defensive options, I mean, Colwill had started every Premier League game until Wolves. Reece James, the only reason he hasn't been playing is because he hasn't been fit. He'd be one of the first names on the team sheet if he was physically reliable. Trevor Chalaba's back. They've got Joshua Champong now under a long term contract and they have really high hopes for him. So I think that's a pretty good first team return for any elite academy. There are always going to be sales and players that aren't willing to wait or players who just don't have the right opportunities at the right moment. But in terms of players actually breaking through, they've, they've done pretty well in terms of the ones that we see.

IO Akim Mulere (21:35)

Yeah. Very quickly you mentioned Chalaba. I mean, how do you think that situation to be handled? There was a time where it wasn't even training with the, you know, the Chelsea squad to a certain degree and went out on loan. Now he's back to filling a gap. I mean, I commend any player and their mental health and respectively how they deal with these kind of situations. But I mean, Chelsea could have been a bit more definite with what his progress looked like, surely.

Phil Hay (21:58)

Well, the first thing to say is this was definitely not the plan, was it? Chelsea did everything they could really to get Trevor Chaliber out permanently last summer and it wasn't the first time that they'd been motivated to sell him. I think they've been pretty much motivated to sell him ever since they gave him that new long term contract in November 2022. He's, he's still under contract until 2028. And, and so there's been this dance of is there a club out there that, that Chaliba would consider joining? Because he's had, he's had offers, he's had offers from Nottingham Forest and from, from other clubs, but he, he sees himself as a top centre back. Whether you agree or not, he sees himself as a top centre back and if he, if he's going to leave Chelsea, which is a club that he's, he's got a boyhood connection to, he wants to play for a top club because that's the level he sees himself performing at. And those stars haven't aligned on a move. And, and that's why we've seen the kind of messiness. I think where you can question Chelsea last summer is the optics of what they did, you know, taking the squad number off him, putting him in the bomb squad, so to speak, away from the first team, building with other players who clearly weren't in the, in the plans. Chaliba was kind of a unique situation even among those players because he had performed well for Chelsea. He was on a long term contract. It wasn't a Conor Gallagher situation where it was like sell or sell, renew or losing for nothing. So it's always been a bit of an odd one. And he's gone away and performed really, really well for Crystal palace and then come back and acted like he was never, was never away. I think, I think the one thing in all this, as you say, you have to commend Trevor Chaliba's professionalism. I think he's clearly a top, top professional. He's kept his counsel throughout all of this. There's been no briefing from, you know, dissatisfaction from his side. He's clearly not been happy with the situation, but he's got on with it. He's focused on his football and he's put himself in a situation where Chelsea felt they needed him back. And from Chelsea's perspective, they feel that the letting him go on loan to palace last summer was the right football decision then and bringing him back is the right football decision now. Because while their evaluation of Chaliba as a player hasn't changed, they still don't see him as a starter when they're at their strongest. The circumstances have changed. With Wesley Fafana out, Benoit Badiashile out, it's clear Enzo Maresca doesn't have a well, he he doesn't see Axel Dzasi as a fit in his system at all. The the level of trust in Tosin despite scoring against Wolves is kind of questionable given that Joshua Champion was starting over him by the end. So they they needed something else. They felt that Chaliba would be able to come in, not need the time to acclimatize that a new signing would. And I think that was borne out against Wolves. He made an instant impact and he should continue to do so between now and May. You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Acamwalere.

Lauren Dragan (25:24)

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Phil Hay (25:49)

Okay, go.

Lauren Dragan (25:53)

Are they broken?

Phil Hay (25:54)

No.

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David Ornstein (26:21)

So on the pitch for sure. I would like to win more games but I'm okay off the pitch. It's a disaster because so many noises that I don't think help us but I don't think they help any any club in this moment. When there is any noise about some player, it's not easy because even if you think that the player can be focused on us, but at the end it's a human being. So if there is any noise about some different club, probably it's not focused 100%. So it's not help in this moment, this kind of situation. But we need to adapt because it's like this.

IO Akim Mulere (26:54)

Yeah, that was Enzo Maresca describing being in charge of Chelsea during the January transfer window as a disaster. Now Liam, sounds quite intense, but you've covered Chelsea for a fair bit of time now. You ever heard a manager describe the window in such a way?

Phil Hay (27:09)

He's he's not the first coach that I've heard express disdain for the transfer market. I mean, I did cover Mauricio Sarri, who was very, very open in his complete contempt for. For. For transfers and the whole buzz around it. I think he called it the refuge of the week. And that was before he got to Chelsea.

IO Akim Mulere (27:29)

That was.

Phil Hay (27:30)

That was one of the infamous quotes that accompanied his arrival. It is quite stark to hear Mareska be so candid about it, and I think it's a reflection of the real frustration he's feeling. Every coach has to deal with this to a degree. And the January window is innately more disruptive than the summer window, because the summer window, you've. It's bad enough you've got a couple of weeks where you're trying to start the season and players can still move, but January, you're in the midst of it. You know, fixtures are thick and fast, Chelsea are trying to regain some momentum, and yet you have this noise. And with Chelsea in particular, because they're so active, because their modern history, if you like, is so tied up in transfer activity both in and out, there's more noise around Chelsea than almost any other club in, in the market. And to me, when I, When I hear those quotes, I. This is just my feel. It's not what I've been told. This is just my interpretation. I think he's talking a lot about Christopher and Kunku there, maybe not only, but I think the Christopher and Kunku situation is definitely prominent in that it was notable that against Wolves he didn't feature and he's now not the. He's now fallen below Joao Felix in the pecking order of attackers that Maresca will turn to on his bench. And I don't think that's got anything to do with quality because Nkunku is an exceptionally high quality player. But it's quite clear he's not happy with his Chelsea situation. It's out there that, you know, there could be something with Bayern, maybe not this month, but in the summer it's all a bit uncertain. And yeah, it's not ideal because you have also Nicholas Jackson struggling to score and you don't have the high quality alternative in the squad that you thought you had because when Nkunku has played in recent weeks, he hasn't looked completely engaged. So, yeah, I don't think that was entirely about him, but I do think he's a good example of what Maresca is talking about in that you've got a squad, but you don't necessarily have the full utility of that. Squad because some players are not necessarily fully focused and not necessarily ready to give 100, 110%.

Enzo Maresca (30:01)

The problem is, though, we had reporting that Chelsea are inquiring about Alejandro Garnacho at Manchester United and Jimmy Gittins at Borussia Dortmund. So everybody's playing the game, Chelsea included. So either Maresca is asking for the abolition in the January window, which a lot of people might think is. It's not a terrible idea because as we say all the time, clubs just do not want to be operating or active at this time of year. They don't want to have problems mid season. But, you know, for as long as it exists, Chelsea are doing what everybody else is doing.

Phil Hay (30:32)

What do you think, Phil? I think a lot of coaches would vote for that to abolish the January window, but I think a lot of owners would not.

Enzo Maresca (30:40)

I think a lot of players. I think no. Interesting with players. Yeah. I wonder if players could really do without that. But I think I agree with you. I think coaches would vote for it, but it wouldn't be long in season one before many of them were regretting that decision. When it gets to January and you don't have enough in center mid as Manchester City do, or you need a striker, or as I read this morning, Chelsea want another winger. It is, it is there for the opportunistic. It's, as I've said before, it's quite often there for the desperate. But it is your only chance mid season to make a tweak to your squad. So I get the frustration with it, but I think there would be a bit of concern if it was disappearing completely.

IO Akim Mulere (31:22)

Yeah, you're spot on. But also I say players because I'm thinking about, you know, Cunha at Wolves, funny enough, you know, a player that is clearly a very good player, Phil, and you can understand why he might be delaying contractual conversations at this point in time. You know, he's not quite sure where Wolves might be going in the league. This might be a really good opportunity to maybe go play for another team.

Enzo Maresca (31:43)

Yeah. And by all accounts, body language was not great last night. Vita Pereira called him out for that, which I thought was quite, quite striking and will have been done deliberately. And it is difficult. I mean, you quite often see it, I remember it, and this is niche, but I remember seeing it with Jermaine Beckford at Leeds. A lot of talk in a particular January window when Leeds were trying to get promoted from League one about Newcastle signing him and Beckford's body language kind of, you know, sagging to A certain degree until this situation was resolved and he was staying and they got out the transfer window and suddenly it was all part until the end of the season. And I think it does help to clear a player's head. I mean, Kunku is really interesting actually. I tell you what surprised me was to, to look at him earlier and see that he scored 13 goals this season. And I get that, you know, a feral chunk of those have been in, in the Conference League, but it's all a bit bloody and a bit opaque because it doesn't feel like he's been on the scene. And it's a strange deal whereby, okay, he joined the club in a state of flux and he had that knee injury as soon as he joined. But I'm a little bit surprised that it hasn't worked out for him better. I get that when he speaks he seems to talk as if 10 is his preferred position and you can see who's got that shirt at the moment and isn't going to be letting it go anytime soon. But all the noises seem to suggest that from his point of view and perhaps on a personal level he's kind of getting round to the way of thinking that a return to Germany would be good for him.

IO Akim Mulere (33:11)

Yeah, I guess the injury probably didn't help either, did it Liam? You know, you get signed and then you never really get to, to play that pre season with the team properly and actually hit the ground running in the Premier League.

Phil Hay (33:22)

Yeah, I think Kunkunku at Chelsea could go down as one of the all time sliding doors stories in, in, in modern football because I covered that preseason, the 2023 preseason and he looked, I mean you can never read too much into those games. Obviously there are no stakes, frequently patchwork teams. But he looked really, really good. He was combining really well with Nicholas Jackson. He wasn't importantly playing as a number nine, he was playing as kind of a second striker. Number 10. Cole Palmer of course wasn't there at that point and it looked like, well, in fact it was Mauricio Pochettino was building the attack around him. He was the brain of the attack and Chelsea looked really good in attack in that preseason. And then that friendly against Borussia Dortmund in Chicago, that Ed Sheeran concert ripping up the pitch.

Enzo Maresca (34:16)

It's all Ed Sheeran.

IO Akim Mulere (34:17)

It's always him, it's always causing trouble, innit?

Phil Hay (34:21)

No direct links. I just like to say it for a laugh. He gets this knee injury in a collision with Mats Hummels and misses half the season and by the time he gets back. Not only has he missed that time, but Chelsea are a different team because they found Cole Palmer and Cole Palmer is Chelsea already at that point, he's established himself as the man in the position Nkunku wants to play. And this is why I thought, from the moment Nkunku got back to fitness, I thought the most interesting question for Pochettino and it became the most interesting question for Mareska, can you fit them both in the same team? Because I think they're two of Chelsea's five best footballers in the squad and ideally you would want them both in. In. If you could get them both in the same attack in a team that's actually balanced, I think it would be really, really scary. But so.

Enzo Maresca (35:17)

So did they think that they could. The Pochettino think that he could fit them both into the same team? Because clearly they signed them both. But to look at, certainly to look at this system, it doesn't look like there's space, space for both, unless Palmer's injured.

Phil Hay (35:30)

To be honest, I think Pochettino wasn't necessarily the driving force of the Palmer signing. That was that. That was a talent evaluation by Chelsea, by the recruitment team, and Pochettino wasn't necessarily expecting Palmer to be as good as he was from day one. And, and so I don't think Pochettino was necessarily thinking about that ahead of time. But then once you're in that situation, you are thinking about how to try to balance it. Pochettino never, never found a way to do it. And to be honest, Duncunku wasn't fit enough to make it a real question. Anyway, last season, Maresca was the one who had the quandary, and it's clear he decided very, very quickly that it wasn't going to work. I mean, you go back to the opening day of the season, Chelsea lined up with Cole Palmer on the right wing, Nkunku on the left and Nicholas Jackson up front. And at half time, it just clearly wasn't working. Manchester City were winning at a canter at Stamford Bridge. Despite being less than full strength, Nkunku looked completely uncomfortable on the left wing. Palmer looked completely uninvolved on the right wing, because even when he started on the right for Pochettino, the first thing he did really was move into the number 10 spot with gusto overlapping on the outside. So then Mareska came upon what he's largely pursued since, which is, let's move Palmer into that right pocket, into the de facto number 10 spot with a true winger outside him. Whether it be nonni Madueke or Pedro Neto and that means there's no room for Nkunku. You could potentially play him in that left eight spot, but usually that's either Enzo Fernandez or it's Mark Cucurea sprinting up from left back inverting into attacking midfield. So the system doesn't really allow for it, as you say, Phil. And when Maresca's been asked about it, he's basically said, I'd love to play Cole, Christo, Joao altogether, but someone needs to defend. And you can kind of see what he's talking about there has to. The challenge of a coach is to find a balance and that's why he's tried to play. And Kenku is a number nine, but he's not a natural number nine in the way that Jackson has proven to be, I think, in, in terms of the things that he does. And so he's the second choice, number nine, which you would say is a job. I think talent wise it's a job he's vastly overqualified for and he clearly feels vastly overqualified for it by his demeanor and by the fact that there's already talk of him leaving.

IO Akim Mulere (38:02)

Okay, and let's quickly speed through some of the potential incomings this month. Liam, we'll start with you on this one. We've reported Chelsea are set to sign teen defender Mamadou Sar from Strasbourg, obviously part of the, the wider group. What can you tell us about that deal?

Phil Hay (38:18)

Yeah, so it's a, it's a fairly cheap upside play for Chelsea. Sar fits the profile of player that they typically target as, as kind of a longer term development project. He hasn't played that many games for, for Strasbourg yet. He won't be joining Chelsea in this window. He won't join properly until the summer and then presumably they will decide what his development plan looks like from then, whether it's going back to Strasbourg or going on loan somewhere else. I would be quite surprised if he was immediately in the first team picture at Chelsea given the centre backs that they already have and given the fact that I think they are looking to sign a center back next summer, an established one. I mean they looked at Marc Gay this month. Gay will of course still be available next summer. There will be other options open to Chelsea that weren't open to them in this winter market. So Sar I think is not really much of a headline deal. It's the kind of deal that you're going to see semi regularly in the Bluco ownership that they're going to make these signings Kind of talent acquisition, teenage talent acquisition with a view to potentially being something someday.

IO Akim Mulere (39:38)

Okay, well, Phil, we spoke about what you did anyway, Garnacho, we've reported it, actually. The Athletic of Manchester United, a player Chelsea might be interested in. Jamie Gittens as well from Dortmund, has also been linked to both of the squad. And I'm just thinking in terms of what we're talking about, balance, do Chelsea need any more attacking players in this squad? I mean, where'd you put them all?

Enzo Maresca (39:59)

You know what Liam was saying about transfers being the refuge of the week? Sorry to put that another way. You know what Liam was saying about Mauricio Sani saying that about. About transfers, they can be a bit of like a Twitter fan's dream. Chelsea in the sense that anytime there's an issue, you know, sign someone else, maybe they need them. Obviously there's the situation with Mudryk, which is depriving them of a player for the time being and who knows for how long. And I can see how both players would. Would be a decent fit for Chelsea. I never quite know what to make of Garnacho, if I'm totally honest, but there's no doubt at all that Gittens is a. Is a rising star at Dortmund, and very good things have been said and written about him this season. So, yes, I think there are players that they'd be tempted by. But you do feel like there will come a day where, you know, without recruitment ceasing completely because it never does it at any club, Chelsea will maybe have to start finding, you know, solutions to problems from within, from time to time.

Phil Hay (41:13)

This is the Athletic FC podcast with I.O.

Liam Toomey (41:16)

Akamolera.

Phil Hay (41:20)

Against Petrovic.

Enzo Maresca (41:22)

Makes no mistake, it is his first.

Liam Toomey (41:25)

Hatrick for Wolves and he inflicts more.

Phil Hay (41:28)

Misery at Stamford Bridge for Chelsea.

IO Akim Mulere (41:31)

Yeah, how time flies. A. That goal was from last season's home match against wolves, which ended 4 2. Mauricio Pochettino's team ended up getting booed off the pitch because they lost that match. Fair to say that. You know what? Things have changed. Only just slightly, I would say, Liam.

Phil Hay (41:47)

Yep, they've definitely improved a bit. I mean, I remember that game as being the one that effectively retired Thiago Silva as a Premier League defender. Quite brutally. I mean, well, it only ever happens brutally, doesn't it, for. For older defenders in the Premier League. And it was Pedro Neto, funnily enough, who was the tormentor in chief that day. A lot has changed, I think in. In a lot of ways. Chelsea structurally look better, but they still have some issues and it. And it is quite funny to think we're. We're a year removed from that. We're also a couple of weeks removed from Chelsea fans singing We've got our Chelsea back when they were second in the league. Four points off the. Off the top of the table. I don't know where we'll be three, four weeks from now, but it seems to be changing all the time.

IO Akim Mulere (42:37)

Yeah, it's quite an interesting one for the fan base, isn't it? Phil thought last week, last season, sorry, I should say things were looking quite doom and gloom then towards the back end of the season. Oh, looks like they're coming back. And then you get rid of the coach, brand new coach comes in, we've got Chelsea back top end of the season and now you're sort of seeing if you can find fourth again. I mean, where is this fan base right now? Mentally there must be physically and mentally drained, surely.

Enzo Maresca (43:01)

I feel like they should. Without being delighted about the way it's going. I feel like they should be. I feel like they should be relatively content when, when you set this conversation against the conversation we were having back in August when literally none of us could predict how this was was going to go or where it was was going to end. They are very much in the running for fourth place. And I think Champions League football from here is probably going to depend not purely on Chelsea's results, but on two other things as well. How Forest hold up with this form, which, you know, you got feeling is that that bubble will bust to some extent at some point and they will start to. To go backwards. But also what happens with Manchester City and if they find. If they kind of find themselves again and start to piece together the sort of runs that they put together every season, it's surely not going to be enough for the title this time round, but it will get them, you know, into the Champions League next season. You would assume that that would happen. As I said, right at the top, this is. It's definitely been a slump on Chelsea's part, but it has really been the. The first one of the season. And it doesn't feel as if people are bouncing off the walls with excitement at Chelsea. And I can never fail to think back to how it was for Maresque at Leicester, where, you know, the give or take, the best results you could have asked for, wanting off for a lot of people in that crowd, regardless of how well it was going and how well he seemed to be doing as a coach. But they're not in Bad shape. I don't think the squad is perfectly balanced. I think there's work to be done with it. I don't think fourth is in well. It's clearly not nailed on, but I don't think it's theirs for the taking either. It's going to be a bit of a royal rumble for that as time goes on, but compared to last season, this is surely better. No?

IO Akim Mulere (44:47)

I guess. Also, Liam, you know, is this where we saw Maresca being when he took over at Chelsea? I think we've now got a decent sample size to see how this team is trying to play under him. But also, look, FA cup, conference, league, you know, they're doing quite well comfortably. Are we happy with where he's at right now, or do you still feel there's a level of overachievement at this moment?

Phil Hay (45:10)

In some ways, I'm kind of pleasantly surprised that Chelsea are where they are after the first half of the season, because you cast your mind back to preseason. They shipped four to Celtic, they shipped four to City's reserves. They looked a bit of a mess, frankly, and again, can't read too much into pre season, but Mareska's tactical principles didn't seem to be too tightly embraced at that point or too tightly wound into this group of players. And I think he's proven more adaptable at Chelsea than a lot of people expected in terms of not being entirely dogmatic about this slow possession style. We don't like counter attacks. Well, Chelsea are one of the best counter attacking teams in the league. They're one of the best fast attacking teams in the league. And I think they've. Yeah, they've been pretty effective and pretty consistent, I would say, in terms of the way that they get themselves into good positions in games. I don't remember too many games this year where you get five minutes in and you just think, oh, Chelsea aren't at it today. You know, they're just not bringing the level of intensity you need to compete in the Premier League. I did see that quite a lot under Graham Potter, even under Mauricio Pochettino. There were days where that. Where that was very much the case. And I think that's, to Maresca's credit. It shows that he has his voice, is getting through with the majority of this group, at least the players that are playing regularly. But there are, There. There are question marks about the team, about the squad. I think as much as we've talked about other positions in relation to the transfer market, I. I'm relentlessly amazed by Chelsea's lack of urgency to look at their midfield because Moises Caicedo went down for a few minutes against Wolves and there was this collective intake of breath around Stamford Bridge because he is Chelsea's midfield right now. Enzo Fernandez is injured, Romeo Lavia plays one game and then is just out for an indeterminate period of time. It seems he's the only one who can remotely do what he does to balance the team in the middle of the pitch. And I do think if Chelsea miss Caicedo for any significant period of time between now and May, they will not get top four because he's the one holding this team together. I wrote a couple of weeks ago, cole Palmer's their best player. Caicedo is their least replaceable as things stand.

IO Akim Mulere (47:46)

Okay, well, let's leave it there. Liam, I know you've got to go, but thank you so much for your time and we'll definitely speak to you soon.

Phil Hay (47:52)

Always a pleasure, guys. Thanks.

IO Akim Mulere (47:54)

Very quickly, Phil, while I've still got you, let's go over one of the biggest pieces of transfer news over the last few days. Here's David Ornstein on West Ham's bid for Aston Villa's John Duran.

Ian McIntosh (48:04)

Look, it's clear John Duran is one of the foremost strikers in world football right now and that's why he's generating so much interest from suitors. We saw the likes of Chelsea and West Ham pursue him last summer, and the admiration has only increased with his form for Aston Villa. Most recently, West Ham have come back to the table and we exclusively revealed on the Athletic on Monday that they made an offer of £57 million, including add ons, but that was rejected by Villa because they have no intention of selling him. If they were to. Their valuation is much higher, upwards of £100 million or euros, and that's reflective of a player that they see continuing with them for the foreseeable future. That won't stop teams trying to prize him from Villa Park. Maybe this month, maybe next summer, but they're going to continue to rebuff them unless it comes somewhere close to what they would be willing to part with him for. West Ham clearly have a need to bolster an attack with injuries to Jarrod Bowen and Nicholas Falkrug, and also the terrible car crash that Michail Antonio was involved in. But they'll most likely have to look elsewhere unless they are able to go higher, and I'm really not sure they are. What we're seeing here is an imbalance between supply and demand of top strikers around Europe Clubs want them, but they are in relatively short supply and that creates an inflation in the price of those who are on the market. And Duran is certainly high among them. So let's see how this one develops. But for now, Duran is staying at Aston Villa, and if clubs want to change that, they're going to have to pay a pretty penny.

IO Akim Mulere (49:54)

Yeah, that was David Ornstein on Jon Duran potentially going to West Ham, Phil. And I got to say, this is an interesting deal, potentially, because I can understand why Duran might want to go to West Ham and obviously they need a striker, but Villa have just bought Marlin as well from Dortmund. What do you make of this deal?

Enzo Maresca (50:14)

And I suppose more to the point, if you're looking for an avenue to exploit, doesn't get that much game time, you know, versus the number of goals that he scores when he does come onto the pitch. He's really, really prolific as a sub. But we were talking in the Chelsea section about Nkunku at Chelsea. Similar sort of thing at Villa. You know that you've got Ollie Watkins up front, and for Duran, it has been a struggle to muscle his way in, no matter how spectacular his goals have been or how often he. When he. When he comes off the bench. My observation here would be that the difference between West Ham's valuation or their offer and Aston Villa's valuation would make me assume that there is zero chance of this happening in this window. If Villa is committed to keeping Duran as they say they are, and I think the signs are, that is a genuine attitude on their front, I think they do want him to stay, then West Ham are going to have to go considerably higher and it's hard to see how they get close to the sort of money that Villa would want, given that Villa are not willing sellers in these circumstances. So I guess it's the sort of offer that maybe starts to test Villa's resolve a little bit, but it would be a shock to me if they didn't dig their heels in on this one.

IO Akim Mulere (51:27)

All right, Phil, thank you so much for your time and also Liam as well. For earlier, more on Chelsea and also the January transfer window, go to the Athletic right now and check it out. We'll see you tomorrow.

Jack (51:40)

The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

Liam Toomey (51:47)

Hello, I'm Ian McIntosh and I'm the host of the Daily Football Briefing. What is the Daily Football Briefing? It's a special 10 minute daily show designed to bring you up to speed with the most important stories from across the football world. Except on Monday mornings when it's 15 minutes and we try to cram in the results, results, standings and stories from the top 10 leagues on the planet. Or at least the top 10 leagues that I run on a football manager save. Follow this show today and you'll never miss another big story again. Whether it's news that the Athletic has just broken David Ornstein what happened? News from outside the Premier League that other podcasts might ignore.

Phil Hay (52:21)

That is a difficult one to explain, so let's go bit by bit.

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It's made for a very useful away point in a difficult game in a difficult week.

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