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- [00:00]
Narrator
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Guest 1
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [01:44]
Host 3
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. Victor Yokorez is Arsenal's new number 14. Lamin Yamal, Kylian Mbappe and Cole Palmer have all switched to take the number 10 for their clubs. So how significant is a squad number? So with us today we've got Stu James and also out in Brazil enjoying the Caparinas and the Feijoadas. We've got Jack Lang with us as well. Jack, great to have you with us, but I'm going to come to you first, Stu. It's a bit of a niche subject, but there's something really special for me about shirt numbers. What's your take? Why is it such a big deal that players wear a certain number?
- [02:25]
Host 1
Stewart I think there's several factors here. I think one of the first, as strange as it sounds, is superstition. Players become really attached to certain numbers, especially when they've come through wearing a number from a young age. And then I think there are a couple of aspects that are very similar. There's status and there's ego, too. So certain shirts mean certain things in terms of positionally, in terms of stature, and also mean different things at different clubs as well. You know, for example, the 7 shirt at Liverpool is really iconic because of someone like Doug Leash or Keegan wearing that shirt. T shirt. Other places, it might be the 10 or the 9. You think of brand as well. So Ronaldo comes to mind. CR7, obviously, in the women's game, you've got Sam Kerr. And there was a really fascinating little extract in the documentary they did a few years ago where Sam Kerr had signed for Chelsea. And Paul Green, the general manager, was having this chat with his staff discussing the signing. And then he just sort of casually said, awkwardly, at the end of this chat, there's just one more point. Sam's going to wear the number 20 shirt because that's part of her brand. That is her brand. And that means we'll have to take the shirt off Jon Anderson. And you're thinking, right, I wonder how that worked. And then it's really interesting, they cut to the dressing room where Anderson's talking to Frank Kirby, and Frank Kirby says, did they tell you that you have to give up that shirt, or did they ask you? And she says, no, they told me. And then she just turns around, Kirby and says, that's not okay. So I think all those factors come into it. Superstition, status, ego, and the brand bit as well. And probably the brand goes with the status and the ego, too.
- [04:06]
Host 3
Yeah. Is there an element here, Jack, of just know your place? I mean, look, if I'm stepping onto a team and Cristiano Ronaldo's who he is, wearing number seven. R9's there wearing number nine. I mean, I'm just. I'm just happy to play for a team that has those two players. I'm not even going to ask for the number. But the real talk is, do people really have a stake to a number?
- [04:26]
Host 2
I think if you're a big enough name, if you're a big enough ego, you will always make the ask, I think. And then, I mean, I think the more interesting question is whether or not you give it up to that player coming in. So, obviously, you know, in the case of Cristiano Ronaldo, when he first moved to Real Madrid, he was CR9 for a brief period, which I'm sure his marketing people were absolutely delighted about. There was a brief kind of recalibration of that. But, I mean, personally, I like the creativity that comes with players taking on new numbers, you know, players taking a number and making it their own in different circumstances. So, like, I'm sure we'll get onto this later, but a player who maybe didn't get his first choice number, his or her first choice number at the first club, but then kind of imbues the number they do get with some meaning, some significance for years to come. I'm thinking yaya Toure, number 42. No one's asking him for the 42 at any club, but that is distinctly him, isn't it? You know, kaka number 22. Declan Rice may be starting to do that with 41. So, yeah, there are loads of layers to it. And the one thing I would add to Stu's. You know, Stu's covered the politics and the. The marketing aspect of it there. But there is, of course, a big aesthetic consideration in that. Some numbers are so loathe you the word sexy, but I have some numbers. Yeah, they're just so. They're mystical, they're alluring, and some numbers really aren't. And so I think anyone who cares about the way they're perceived is gonna think about how their game fits into that kind of matrix. Stu, what number were you, mate?
- [06:06]
Host 1
Well, we had this conversation briefly, actually, before we came on air. There's a couple of stories there. So, one, I was. My squad number at Swindon was 37. And that has always remained one of my lottery numbers ever since.
- [06:20]
Host 3
Have you ever won the lottery on that number?
- [06:21]
Host 1
No, and I didn't really do well as a footballer either. So I was saying earlier, I dug a shirt out of the loft when I played for Salisbury in the FA cup at Sheffield Wednesday, which is probably round about the peak of my career. And ridiculously, Jack, I Wore the number 10 shirt and I was playing wing back. I don't know what that was about at all.
- [06:37]
Host 2
Oh, lovely.
- [06:38]
Host 1
Yeah. I mean, that is. I can't think of a more inappropriate. Use the number 10 shirt in every way, positionally, and me wearing it.
- [06:44]
Host 3
So you went for the glory, but the position probably wasn't matching it. What about you, Jack? What number you say?
- [06:48]
Host 2
Well, I. Honestly, when I was growing up, there was not a great deal of respect for the shirt number culture. So I remember being in, you know, youth team changing rooms and my. So my youth team, at one point, we won a competition that gave us a full England strip as the prize. So we were waltzing around. This is probably under 1112 level. Waltzing around wearing England kit, thinking we were pretty cool. I was the captain but there was just no respect. Like, the. The bag would come out and everyone would just grab, grab, grab, and so there was no consistency to it at all. Then I. When I moved into, you know, playing Sunday league adult level again, people would just grab whatever and I would be, you know, one week I was a central midfielder, so I'd be 11 one week for the next week. And I found this really distasteful. And I try and make this point to, like, the manager. My teammates, they just. They weren't having any of it. So I think you have to be a pretentious little idiot in Cornwall, evidently, to really care about this stuff, and no one else did. But my. My. My preference, I would occasionally play attacking midfield to 10, obviously was the best, but after 10, I. I'm quite partial to a six. I like a six in midfield.
- [08:00]
Host 3
Yeah. Do you know, I was thinking what you were just saying about sexy numbers and, you know, some numbers aren't sexy, but the players that wear them make them sexy. So Zidane, Real Madrid. I don't think number five was particularly a sexy number. Zidane wears it. Jude Bellingham goes to Real Madrid, takes the same number because of Zidane.
- [08:18]
Host 2
Right.
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Host 3
You know, there is still something there, isn't there, in terms of Zidane can wear number 75 for all, you know, but, like, realistically, because he's that good, 75, that becomes the greatest number of all time, Stu.
- [08:30]
Host 1
Totally this. And I can, like, with the kids. So with the under 15s team I coach, we do have. Don't have names on the back, but the boys can choose a number. And obviously, if you've had a number for a long time, they. They keep it. I've not had anyone yet. Have the Ronaldo situation where with Cavani, where someone's challenging someone and saying, I'd like that number, can you give it up? But interestingly, I had a few shirt numbers that were free last summer, and one of them was five. And this lad was a. Was not. I see. Five is center back, and he definitely is not center back. He's an attacking player, and he took five. And I didn't ask him, but I'm sure, like, the whole Bellingham thing would have been part of that. He's too young to think of Zidane as crazy as that sounds. But you're right, someone can. Someone who's a player like Bellingham, who has that status, can transform how a number's perceived. But it's interesting, like with Trent taking 12, I don't like 12. 12's a bad number for me, number two. Number two's an awful number, right?
- [09:25]
Host 3
Two is an awful number.
- [09:27]
Host 1
I think two is as bad as it gets, actually.
- [09:30]
Host 2
12 is so like utility player, isn't it? There's no glamour to 12. At least two. You're like, okay, I'm first choice, right? 12 is like Phil Neville, in a way, was the perfect 12, because, yeah, I'll play right back a bit. I'll play left back a bit. I'll play defensive midfielder if you need gaff. But there's. There's absolutely no glamour, no romance to 12 like 12 would be. I think my final choice. I'd rather be number like 79 than 12, honestly.
- [09:58]
Host 1
I think that also, right, comes from, for me, being older than you guys, but from an era where 12 was the first sub. And there's an interesting thing here. When I first sort of started playing football seriously, which was in the conference at the time, the National League, as it is now, there weren't squad numbers, although they were in the professional game. They weren't in the conference at the time. So you'd have 1 to 11, and you'd have sort of 12, 14. And in these changing rooms at the time, they're all typically pretty small. You'd, if you'd been playing, say, I'd right back, I'd go and sit under number two. And then you'd have this really awkward thing that would never happen now because you just sit under your shirt with the name on, whether you're SERP or starting, and then the manager would read the team out and you weren't playing. And then you'd have to get. Do it, do this humiliating sort of walk where you got up, picked your bag up and you, you know, your Blaze, whatever you'd hung on there, take it off and go and sit over by number 12, 14. Obviously none of that happens now, but for me, that's why 12 has that really kind of negative kind of attachment to it. Yeah. And obviously Trent's taking that right now. I don't know, is the six plus six a thing there, why he's taken that, or is it just that was available? Because obviously you can't go above 25 in. In LA Liga. But I didn't look at what the other shirts were that were free, to be honest. I just thought 12, that's a bad shirt.
- [11:11]
Host 3
Well, let's move on. Because also, you know, we've mentioned R9, we've mentioned CR7. You've also mentioned Sam Kirstew, James McNicholas, reported as part of Miles Luis Scaly's contract renewal that he's going to take 49, which obviously resembles Arsenal's unbeaten season. I mean, how much of it is a branding thing as well? Because, you know, obviously we talk about the Real Madrid thing, But, you know, CR7, it's on his boots. R9. Nike sold boots because of R9. Fundamentally.
- [11:41]
Host 1
Yeah. And people talk about them as CR7 and R9, don't they? You know, that that becomes them more than their name, in a way. But I think that a lot of these players now, like Lewis Skelly's a good example. There's a song attached to him, right, about number 49. That's the first number he's been given to come through with. So he wants to stick with it in the same way that Rice does. I mean, Rice came out with this comment, which would be. Is madness when you think about it. But, yeah, I think it was on Gary Neville's overlap where he was asked about, you know, taking another number and he explained why he wanted to keep 41 because it was the shirt he came through wearing at West Ham. Then he said, I don't know whether if I change to a new number, it would hamper my performances.
- [12:17]
Host 3
I don't know.
- [12:18]
Host 2
I just think sometimes about a couple.
- [12:19]
Host 1
Things like that, which. It's ludicrous.
- [12:22]
Guest 1
Right?
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Host 3
That's superstition.
- [12:23]
Host 1
That's superstition right at the heart of it there. And Trent was the same, you know, obviously 66 was the number he was given. He didn't ask for 66 when he was sort of 17, 18. He becomes attached to it and that becomes 66 is Trent at Liverpool. So, yeah, there's a massive brand marketing side to this and which, like, you know, Jack joked about earlier with Ronaldo, they obviously couldn't get the number seven shirt for him quickly enough at Real Madrid, but they have to. His people have to wait a little while till Raul packed up.
- [12:52]
Host 3
Yeah, it's true. I mean, I can't imagine the Brazilian Ronaldo as any other number for the R9 reason. But also, you know, Jack, marketing wise, I wanted to wear those boots because they said R9 on them. The mental image that can play as a marketing tool for a consumer is actually massive.
- [13:09]
Host 2
Absolutely. Yeah. Especially when you're in that kind of adolescent kind of your formative years, you really attach any kind of iconography to a player, be it, you know, their. Their number, the way they wear their socks. All of these little details add up into a whole. Funny you should Say, you can't imagine in, in another number, I've got a Corinthian shirt with Ronaldo 99 on the back.
- [13:29]
Host 3
No way.
- [13:30]
Host 2
And I, I really rate that. I think 99 is actually a great number. I'm not one of these people who kind of will feel sick about anything above. The number 39 for a striker I think is actually quite cool. Probably not as good as just the traditional R9 itself. But the thing is with the number nine as well, obviously you've got, you know, it is the number for any first choice striker, they would want to be in the number nine. But actually in Brazilian terms, the number nine was never really the number. Obviously, you know, number ten is the number of Pele, of Zico, of Ronaldinho, all the kind of the really iconic Brazilian players. Neymar, all number 10. So the fact that he was number nine domestically at least was like, well, that's actually not necessarily the number you would go for first choice, but he obviously made it his through being a very classic striker. But yeah, I would dream of being associated with number 10 especially. I think it's just, it's just so cool. Probably, probably wouldn't be playing at wing back like Stu, but I was just.
- [14:36]
Host 3
Gonna say Stu devalued that number, unfortunately. This brings me on to my next point actually, because next we'll discuss arguably the most wanted shirt number in all of football. And now watch Pele, number 10, always.
- [14:50]
Guest 1
The master and the scorer of goal.
- [14:52]
Host 3
Number three, Maradona again.
- [14:55]
Guest 1
And has both Gaga to his left.
- [14:56]
Host 2
And Valana to his left. He won't need any of them. Oh, you have to say that.
- [15:02]
Host 3
Magnificent balls with real menace here. Brilliant from Messi.
- [15:07]
Host 1
Oh, what a goal that is. Lamine Yamal. He's been handed the iconic Barcelona number 10 shirt.
- [15:14]
Host 3
Lionel Messi putting a little comment on.
- [15:17]
Host 2
Instagram as well, saying the number 210 Lamin Yuma.
- [15:21]
Host 3
There's not many like him around.
- [15:27]
Narrator
A hotel might have a bar, a resort, a spa, but if you want it all, dining pools, gaming clubs, shows. It takes more than the boardwalk. It takes a village. It takes a borgata where the best meals meet, the hottest tables, where one pool leads to the next. Room service, bottle service, every service. It takes nothing short of a village to make your stay. So we built one. Visit theborgata.com to learn more. Must be 21 or over. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler when you're a forward.
- [16:01]
Host 2
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Guest 1
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Host 3
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Host 1
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- [16:27]
Host 3
Listen, you dropped one of those tiny.
- [16:29]
Narrator
Cheeseburgers under the seat like last week.
- [16:31]
Host 3
And now we're both dry heaving at the stench. Do us a favor, grab some Turtle Wax and let's get to work. This has been Car Tracks with Turtle Wax. You are how you car. Yeah, Jack, look, we've talked about number 10 and you know, he's talking about the significance in Brazil. Belay Zico, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Neymar. But from your perspective, who is the most iconic number 10 in football history?
- [17:08]
Host 2
I'm going to be a bit awkward here. Sorry. And actually, I think, I think number 10 is more central to Argentine football than it is to Brazilian football.
- [17:15]
Host 3
Interesting. Okay, break it down.
- [17:18]
Host 2
Obviously, you know, names wise, Maradona, Messi are the obvious ones. Juan, Roman, Rickelme. But I think it's actually more to do with the way Argentine football has always set up. Like the number 10 is A. Is a position first and foremost in Argentine football before it is a position really anywhere else. Like, if you look at the great Brazilian number tens, they're not all central playmakers, right? Neymar has played there a bit for Brazil, but he's also played on the left up front. Pedal Air was not really a central playmaker in the way that we think of when we say a number 10. Probably the most classical in the Brazilian history is Zico. But then when you go to Argentina, the number 10 designates the guy who plays in front of a midfield platform behind often two strikers, and is the guy that we think of who barely moves out of that little area, only does nutmegs through balls, penalties, free kicks, and occasionally lobs the keeper. That's kind of specific positional and in terms of responsibilities of that position is very Argentine to me and obviously doesn't get much more clear than Messi and Maradona. But I would probably say that my archetypal number 10 is maybe Raquel May. Just because you would, you would never see Raquel May on either flank. He just. He's not interested. He's not interested. He doesn't want to get beyond the forward. He doesn't want to drop into the deep midfield or pick up the board. He just like will stand there and just do the cool stuff. And so, yes, sorry to go away from Brazil, there But that's. That's probably my guy.
- [18:58]
Host 3
Or about you, stu. Best number 10 of all time.
- [19:01]
Host 1
Yeah, I'm showing my age here. But Maradona would be there. Platini as well. I love Platini, you know, throughout the 80s, brilliant in that France team Baggio. Baggio would be another. So, yeah, the number 10 essential. I think if you, if you go along to a game and you don't know the teams, rightly or wrongly, and clearly wrongly at times, you look and think the 10 would be decent. He'll have something about him, he'll be a good player. But yeah, Maradona, for me, the 86 World cup would just be. That is what I think of when I think of number 10 more than anyone.
- [19:35]
Host 3
Yeah, Love it. I love it. Well, let's bring in Paul Belous here all the way from Barcelona. Good to have you with us. So we're talking number tens and I mean, dare I say it, it's probably one prolific number 10 of Argentine origin that it is the God of Barcelona, really.
- [19:50]
Guest 1
He is. He is in a way, you don't understand the club right now. I understand that it is as a global brand, as an elite club, as everything without Lionel Messi in it. Because now we consider Barcelona what they are, as one of the top contenders in European football. But if you go to the 90s, to the 80s or something like that, Barcelona was not that level. Then Jochen Cruz, the right, of course, then Jochen Cruz left, Barcelona struggled for a bit. If we want to understand Barcelona as the serial winners and the Pep Guardiola winning machine and everything, it's messy. And the number 10 and the legacy that it's left and for sure, yeah, we've had like some news this summer regarding the number 10 shirt, but it looks that the new guy that has inherited it is going to be up for the challenge.
- [20:33]
Host 3
And by that you mean Yamile? Honestly, like, this boy is special and he's so young still. But also I compare it to maybe Ansu Fatih, for instance, who it felt like it weighed heavy on a player like that.
- [20:45]
Guest 1
Yeah, I think that there's like two things in here. One thing is that Barcelona, as we know, we've spoken broadly about the financial constraints and the situation that Barcelona are going through. They need leaders, they need the picture of a project. They need a guy that can be the go to guy, not just on the pitch, but also off the pitch, just to sell what Barcelona is and what they want to be. Because for the business perspective of the club, it's just a must. It's just something that is required. And when Lionel Messi left, they needed that more than ever, possibly. And then Ansu Fati was, in a way, the sort of figure that Barcelona fans could envision embracing that role. But if we compare Antu Fatitullah Minamal, there are, like, different worlds in terms of Lamin Diamal has done a lot more things that Ansu Fati had done back in the days when he was given the number 10. He was asked by the club, look, do you want to wear the number 10? Can you do us this favor? And Ansfati asked his teammates and the dressing room, and everyone said, yeah, yeah, go for it and take it. And he took it. But Ansu Fatih had barely played, like, consistently at the top level before getting rambut. And we saw, like, amazing glimpses. I don't want to understate what Ansu Fatih was, because he was truly amazing at the age that he was doing things. But the consistency was still not there, unlike with Lamin. I mean, the thing with laminjamal, and what makes it more mad and more frightening is the age. But in terms of handling it, it's been quite similar, if not best handled than it was with Lionel Messi back in the days. Lamin Diamal has played more minutes than Lionel Messi had played before he took the number 10 shirt. He's done arguably more things that Messi had done for the club individually before taking the number 10 shirt. So, yeah, he's just 18. He has a lot of years ahead of him and a lot of expectations. But I think that in the way of Barcelona handling it, it's been quite reasonable. And Lamin d' Amal has shown the personality and everything that he's just willing to take it and capable to do it.
- [22:45]
Host 2
Yeah, it writes itself, doesn't it? Particularly the fact that he's, you know, left footed. And in terms of his skill set, you know, there are differences between him and Messi, but it's pretty similar. You won't get many players who are both, you know, unbelievable dribblers, but also have that eye for a pass, also score. It's probably as close as you could get to a, to a carbon copy of that. And Yamal 10 jerseys, I think, are going to be a pretty heavy seller for the next, what, 15 years, maybe longer. And it'll be interesting because obviously Messi for being the best player in the world for so long, maybe ever. You see so many messy shirts everywhere, wherever you go in the world. You know, my, my son was on the beach yesterday wearing a messy shirt and there was, there was another kid wearing a messy shirt. It's going to be interesting to see. You know, it's a lot to ask of your mouth to maintain the level for that long, but, you know, in 20 years time, are the Yamal shirts going to be everywhere? Are we going to be talking about that kind of same kind of omnipresence around the world? Interesting to see.
- [23:49]
Guest 1
There's a funny story now that you were mentioning the money making machine that Barcelona official stores might be now with the La minimal T shirt. Barcelona basically wanted to announce the la Minjamal Number 10 takeover at the start of July when the new shirts were about to be released. Just from day one have the number 10 laminate boom, start printing. But it was Lamin who asked to like be delayed and just to wait until his birthday because of his grandma. He wanted his grandma to be on his unveiling. He wanted the whole family to be on the celebration of his new number. And for two weeks, Barcelona had to sell La Mindiamal shirts on the online shop with like La Mindiamal number one first and then a question mark, as in implying that the number is going to change or we cannot reveal which number is going to be yet to.
- [24:33]
Host 2
Really maximize that, they should have let him play a game in the question mark, question mark number.
- [24:38]
Guest 1
Yeah. Oh, what? I think, great.
- [24:40]
Host 2
So like, obviously clubs do this all the time. They, they produce these shirts for like, I don't know, anniversary appearances or 200 appearances. And most of the time they just put, you know, pose with it before the match and then they play their normal number in Brazil. The guy will, the guy will play in it. It's great. Like, so like, oh, really? A striker will be playing his 200th game for Koritiba and then he posed with the shirt and then he'll just like get it on and he'll play the game in like. And so for one random match, there are like photos of a guy wearing 200. I love it too. Good.
- [25:10]
Host 3
Oh, I love it. Bring that in. Bring that into the Premier League. Like, Stu, let's move away from Barcelona because, look, Cole Palmer's also number 10. Yamal Musiala, Bayern's also number 10. Killing Mbappe as well. Number 10. They must have heard you're a number 10 mate. You know, they wanted to follow in your footsteps.
- [25:26]
Host 1
I think those situations with the shirt numbers there, I think they've all been fairly straightforward. Obviously there's the mudrik situation. He was wearing 10 at Chelsea. And so Palmer said that he will speak to Mudryk at the right time, but he's taking a shirt off him, but he's not really, because Mudryk is not playing. Obviously Modric is left, you know, enabling Mbappe to. To take that shirt. And then you've got the Musialis situation with Leroy Sane departing. So you haven't got the kind of politics that you had, which we sort of discussed earlier, where a player comes in, you know, say, for example, Jadon Sancho when he came to United and he was going to take the 7 shirt and Cavani didn't want to give it up. And then obviously later that summer, Cavani had to give it up because Ronaldo came in. But these. I've always how these things are handled is interesting. I think I read in your piece poll the Ansifati situation. Yamal was really respectful of Ansu Fatih and didn't want to sort of take the shirt unless he knew that Ansu Fati was leaving. You know, the nine shirt at Newcastle is obviously really iconic and when Callum Wilson joined, he really wanted that shirt, but Joe Linton had it and he said he didn't think it would be like a mature thing to straightaway go in there and say, hey, can I have that shirt? It would probably upset people. I spoke to an agent about this when I did the piece a while ago and I said, would it ever come up in contract talks? This is an experienced agent who's represented a lot of top players. He said, I have never, ever discussed that in contract talks when I'm trying to bring a player to a club. He said, there's far more important things to fight for. And he said also, you come across as a bit of an idiot if you're going into a dressing room for the first time and you've made a real play to take a shirt off someone else's back. So, yeah, they're interesting, those kind of scenarios, but I think those three there are all kind of as straightforward as it gets.
- [27:05]
Host 3
Yeah, the Yamal one's interesting, Paul, especially with answer Fatih, because you saw towards the back end of that season where he asked for him to play, you know, in matches for Barcelona. I mean, not to say he may be preempted what was going to happen, but there's something really smooth and actually quite beautiful about the way this handover sort of happened. Obviously, Fati is now at Monaco.
- [27:25]
Guest 1
Yeah. I mean, the starting point of it is that Ansu Fati was a sort of role model for Lamina Mala de la Masia. So they had a close friendship. So his people are Ansu Fati's people. And in a way, he wanted to pay that respect to him as well, with the moment that you mentioned when he asked to be chopped off just to let Ansu Fati play. But, yeah, I think that in a way, the process at Barcelona has been influenced by the fact that people at the club know that they rushed giving the number 10 to Ansu Fati. They knew that it was a dangerous thing to do and that it didn't make any favor to the players. So before taking another step in that regard, Ancio Fati already had the number 10. It was already done. And now taking it away from him would have been seen as a way of acknowledging a weakness. But, yeah, Lamina Mal. When you speak to people close to him, I mean, this self confidence that he uses, like, one of his closest guys basically revealed, like, a couple of weeks ago, told me that when they were discussing about the potential number that he was gonna take, he was like, well, all the good ones were the number 10, right. So I'm possibly gonna wear it.
- [28:28]
Host 3
That's what you call backing yourself. Paul, I know you've gotta go, but quick question. Have you got your mouth shirt?
- [28:33]
Guest 1
I still don'.
- [28:34]
Host 3
My have a word, mate.
- [28:35]
Guest 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm more like a central midfield guy. Yeah, I. I just want to be on. I don't want to be on the spotlight. I want to do the dirty work.
- [28:43]
Host 3
So I love it. I love it. Number six. Number six. Number six.
- [28:47]
Guest 1
Number even, like, number eight. 18. Yeah, 18 coming off the bench. Just, like, get that yellow card and just.
- [28:59]
Host 3
I love it, man. All right, Paul, appreciate you as always. Have a good one.
- [29:02]
Guest 1
Good man. Have a good one. See you.
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- [31:23]
Host 3
Well, last week, shortly after announcing the signing of Victor Jochares, Arsenal confirmed he take the number 14 shirt, following in Thierry Henry's footsteps.
- [31:32]
Guest 1
I use the word conviction and that's the first thing that I noticed when I spoke to him. You know, someone very determined, someone that was really already attached to the club. The way he was talking about the club, the history, in this case Thierry and what the shirt represented. And yeah, Pierre felt it. So when you feel it, go for it.
- [31:51]
Host 3
Yeah, that was Mikel Arteta there speaking to the media in Hong Kong about the significance of Victor Jocheris taking that iconic shirt number the athletics jet. James McNicholas has reported the club have experienced record shirt sales. Demand was so high that the shop's websites temporarily crashed. Maybe I was one of those people, gents. But also this is where I revealed that I actually played number 14 because of Thierry Henry. I always thought I could be Henry. I wasn't as good as him, clearly. Honestly, I even had his orange boots that he wore at Arsenal. But the thing is, Jack, how much of a fascination with squad numbers is built around the players who have gone before, such as, in this case, Thierry Henry.
- [32:30]
Host 2
Yeah, a lot of it, clearly. I mean, we've all, I'm sure, got names printed on the back of shirts of players we've admired. The number then works its way into your. Into your memory. And there are still numbers beyond the ones I really hate that just don't do it for me. Like, what, 12. 12. 12 is bad. We've agreed on that. Two is a bit. Two's a bit dull. 15 just like, it just elicits no emotion in me.
- [32:52]
Host 3
Why do you hate it so much?
- [32:54]
Host 2
It's just. I don't hate it. It's just nothing. Like. There's just. I can't really think of anything that 15 makes me think of. Like, name me a famous 15.
- [33:05]
Host 3
I mean, good luck, Stu. Famous 15.
- [33:09]
Host 1
No, I'm with Jack. It is just a nothing number. It's interesting, you know, when you spoke earlier, Jack, I think about our influences through, like adolescence with football shirts and that kind of thing, and think about my lad, they've signed this winger, they've spent some money, Swansea, which they never do, called in USA. And then he's been wearing 27 pre season and he was discussing the other day who he has on the back of his shirt. He said, I'm not having an oosu if he wears 27. And I said, really? And he says, it's a rubbish number. And so kids really do. And we've been talking like that on this pod, but kids really do kind of think like that. So I guess it illustrates as well the power of putting the right number on the back of a shirt and what that might lead to in shirt sales, which we've discussed as well.
- [33:55]
Host 2
Get him on YouTube. Stu, Fabio, Cuagliarella, Saptoria. Best dolls all in the number 27 shirt, mate. That will swim.
- [34:04]
Host 1
Lang. This is your unbelievable knowledge of numbers here, which obviously you've got a story behind this in terms of how useful these numbers are, right?
- [34:13]
Host 2
I do, yeah. I do need a good, like, catalogue because I will often when I'm swimming lengths at my pool, it might. To keep count. I will. I will go through squad numbers as I swim.
- [34:23]
Host 3
This is Jack.
- [34:24]
Host 2
I'm not. I'm not proud to admit this.
- [34:26]
Host 3
Revealing too much.
- [34:27]
Guest 1
This is.
- [34:28]
Host 3
This is pure oversharing here. I didn't think it was going to go this far, mate.
- [34:30]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [34:31]
Host 1
Are you a really good swimmer? I mean, if you've got to donnaruma99, that kind of thing, or. Where does it stop?
- [34:37]
Host 2
I normally bottom out, like if I get to Balotelli 45 then I'll be pretty pleased with myself. But yeah, but I'm going. I'm also going really slowly as well. So like it's a long way to think. You know, often I'll burn through two or three in the first few strokes. So I'm like, I know like 17, like 17. Kevin De Bruyne 17.
- [34:55]
Host 3
Yeah.
- [34:56]
Host 2
And then I'll, you know, by the end of it I'm just repeating the same ones back to myself. But certain. Yeah, certain numbers are harder than others. I mean 15, I'm just got nothing.
- [35:04]
Host 3
Do you know what you talking about in terms of marketability? Stu, earlier, I'm still. It's so weird. Arsenal's number 10 hasn't been taken yet.
- [35:11]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [35:12]
Host 3
Emil Smith Rowe was the last player to wear number 10 and actually he obviously went to Fulham. That is still hanging. Are they just waiting for the right kind of player to sit in and get that shirt? Because we spoke about agents not, you know, having that as part of the deal for a player potentially. But. But you know, Eberichi Eze for instance has been linked with Arsenal.
- [35:29]
Host 1
I knew what you were doing here. You're pushing for the Eze move. I can see it.
- [35:31]
Host 3
You know me too well. You know me too well. But that's a real talk though. I mean, I mean marketing wise, if Eze does end up going to Arsenal, donning his actual shirt, that would be brilliant. Marketing wise, surely.
- [35:41]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [35:41]
Host 1
And you could even think that it might. I'm not saying it's going to make the difference between coming or not, but it's a great thing to say, isn't it, to a prospective player as well. Hey, the number 10 shirts here, how'd you fancy playing in that? And I guess for the existing players there, you know, who, who would we say in that Arsenal squad that might go in play as a 10? It is a big thing. I mean if you're. You talk. We were talking just now hearing Paul saying about Lamina Miles level of self confidence that he's completely happy with embracing that shirt. You know, by the same token is for some players it would be a little bit. Do I want to bring that pressure on myself? Do I want to make it look like, you know, I'm the big I am kind of thing. So. Yeah, but be an interesting one. I mean if they got Eze, you'd think that's an absolute open goal, wouldn't you, to give him that shirt.
- [36:23]
Host 3
Yeah. Because some shirt number weigh heavy. As we were talking about at Su Fati earlier, Jack, you know, talk about that number 10, you know, you've done that. You're either backing yourself or you don't rise to that pressure.
- [36:34]
Host 2
Definitely. I mean, the number 10 especially so spoke earlier about how in Argentina, it's very much a kind of positional concept. So as I said in Brazil, it's not necessarily the central playmaker. It's, you know, it's maybe playing up front, maybe playing on the wing, but it is. It's the star player, both in terms of the most talented, you know, the highlights, real player, but also someone who takes responsibility. So the 10 is the guy you look for in times of difficulty. He's the guy who's going to change the game for you, who's going to step up, who's going to, you know, turn a 21 defeat into a 2 all draw. And that is really, I think, something we sometimes overlook. The being the star player isn't just all glory and glamour. It's also about, okay, well, there's a. There's a lot riding on that. So these guys who do well in the number 10 jersey, like Neymar, is a classic example. People moan about Neymar, about his diving and all this, and not everyone likes Neymar as a player. That's fine. But if you watch him play, he would, he's never someone who would shy away from seizing the game. He. He knows that it's his responsibility. And part of that is because he's got the number 10 on his back. He is the man charged with doing things for his team. And the number 10 especially carries that sense of accountability, really. Because if they're not doing it, they're not getting that shirt.
- [38:00]
Host 3
Yeah, good point. Let's finish on this. Where do we. Where do we lie, guys, on the cursed numbers? So I'm talking Chelsea, number nine, Stu. We'll start with that one because, I mean, it's. There have been a lot of greats that have worn it, but actually not that many that have shown in it. It.
- [38:15]
Host 1
No, that and Dilap's just taking it. Right. So, you know, maybe he's not phased by that kind of thing at all. But yeah, you go back through that list of strikers, you know, sort of Lukaku, Torres, Iguain, Sidwell. Clearly not a striker.
- [38:29]
Host 3
Sid. Well, taken that.
- [38:30]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [38:30]
Host 1
There's the bizarre one there. Yeah. And it comes back to this sort of superstition, doesn't it, as well? Sorry, I'm going to throw in another Swansea. I've got to keep trying to promote Swansea because Snoop Dogg's not doing quite enough at the minute. But their number 11 shirt is like that, that it is viewed as being cursed. And when they signed Josh Janelli a couple of years ago, my mate who writes to fanzine, I dug his quote out earlier. He said, my only concern is he's taken the number 11, which needs to be retired for our own good. So prior to that, there's a long list of players who'd have bad injuries. When Gibbs White came on low and he fractured his foot straight away, Jordan Morris, the US International, came and did his cruise shit immediately. Janelli ruptured his Achilles almost straight away. And I know the kit man at Swansea has even spoken to players when they've signed and tried to sort of say, hey, you know, that shirt hasn't worked out too well for people. I mean, it's as bonkers, really is Declan Rice kind of saying, you know, if I wore another shirt number, maybe I wouldn't play as well. But I think once people get this thing in their head and actually supporters more than anything probably start thinking, oh, God, that number. Why is he taking that? It's not going to work out. I don't know. It all creates this sort of negativity that shouldn't lead to anything, but almost us.
- [39:40]
Host 3
Yeah. Do you think some numbers are cursed, Jack?
- [39:42]
Host 2
Like, no, I'm quite. I'm not very superstitious person, but I mean, there's definitely. There's definitely a lot of that out there. I think it is. It. Is it Massimo Chalino who doesn't let any of his players wear 17 because 17 is an unlucky number in Italy. So I think. I'm not sure whether it worked at Leeds, but like definitely calorie who he. I think he owns in Italy or owned. No player would ever wear the 17 because he just thought, okay, well, there's no point. Point having that kind of bad voodoo in our squad. So many weird stories to do with numbers. It kind of. It goes a lot deeper than you may think at first glance.
- [40:21]
Host 3
Yeah, honestly, I never thought we'd go this far down various rabbit holes and talking about shirt numbers. Gents, it's been an absolute joy. Jack, Stu, and also Paul who joined us earlier. Thanks for joining us and also thanks for your insight and also thank you guys for listening. We'll catch you soon.
- [40:38]
Host 1
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavrou and Jay Beale. The executive producer was Aidee Moorhead. To listen to other great Athletic podcasts for free. Search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company Production the athletic.
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