Does Pep still have the edge over Arteta?

Summary

The Athletic FC Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode: Does Pep still have the edge over Arteta?
Date: March 23, 2026
Host: Ayo Akinwolere
Guests: Adam Crafton, Arthur Rocher, Sam Lee

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into Manchester City’s Carabao Cup final victory over Arsenal, examining Pep Guardiola’s continued tactical superiority over Mikel Arteta, with a particular focus on the evolving title race. The discussion unpacks key managerial decisions, the rise of academy talent like Nico O'Reilly, the mental state of Arsenal in high-pressure games, and wider Premier League narratives including Tottenham and Sunderland’s recent fortunes.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Pep Guardiola's "Old Master" Moment (02:35–06:54)

• Reasserting Dominance: The panel highlights Guardiola's 40th trophy win, underscoring his enduring hunger and tactical adaptability.
  • Adam Crafton: “It did feel like he was reasserting himself a little bit... kind of one of the old masters, just reasserting, hey, I’m still here and I’m still a problem.” (02:35)
• Tactical Layers: City’s passive, calculated first half and their controlled possession after halftime set the match’s tone.
  • Arthur Rocher: “They didn’t really go and chase Arsenal... they just kind of sat off and let Arsenal’s indecision and confusion do the work.” (04:02)
• Emotional Stakes: Pep’s emotional celebrations and bringing his daughter onto the field were seen as further evidence of his deep connection to this City side.
  • Sam Lee: “For me, him getting his daughter on the pitch to celebrate is incredibly moving. It means a huge amount to him.” (06:14)

2. Nico O’Reilly – Academy Star (06:30–13:57)

• Match Winner and Versatility: O’Reilly’s brace and positional fluidity are praised, with doubts discussed about how another coach or even England manager might deploy him.
  • Adam Crafton: “He’s one of those players... Pep’s just sort of turned him into this Swiss army knife for a player that can basically… play anywhere on the pitch.” (10:49)
• Comparison to Arsenal’s Academy: Arthur draws a parallel to Arsenal’s own versatile academy product, Miles Lewis-Skelly, and debates the challenge of integrating youth amidst squad depth and competition.

3. The Goalkeeper Dilemma – Arteta’s Decision Questioned (19:06–25:51)

• Controversial Selection: Adam Criticizes Mikel Arteta for starting Kepa in goal over David Raya, suggesting Arsenal haven't "won enough" to take such risks.
  • Adam Crafton: “He’s wrong because... he’s not won enough trophies to be doing this. You’re trying to just get over the line, get your best players on the pitch. Don’t overthink it.” (19:21)
• Football Ethics vs. Pragmatism: The nature of rewarding ‘cup keepers’ versus fielding the best XI in finals is debated.
• Mental Schooling: These decisions feed into a wider theme of Arsenal still learning to shift momentum and display the decisive edge seen in City’s more experienced squad.
  • Arthur Rocher: “When you’re having that shared experience as a group, you learn how to shift momentum like Manchester City did.” (25:04)

4. Impacts on the Title Race (25:51–29:56)

• Psychological Blow to Arsenal?: Adam suggests the defeat may dent Arsenal fans’ belief ahead of their looming trip to the Etihad, especially given how City managed the final minutes with composure.
  • Adam Crafton: “It felt a bit like City being there and basically saying, you know, you stay where you are, we’ll go back with a trophy and then we’ll come for you.” (26:10)
• Risk-Averse Arsenal: The panel notes Arsenal’s lack of courage to risk and chase the game after going two down—raising concerns for the title run-in.
  • Adam Crafton: “That was what disappoints me most… A team going for a quadruple... didn't seem capable of coming back and didn't seem to have the belief to come back.” (27:16)
• The Eze Factor: Arthur points out that Eze’s absence removes much of Arsenal’s risk-taking from midfield.

5. Bukayo Saka’s Form and Arsenal’s Big Game Mentality (29:20–32:52)

• Is Saka Fatigued or Out of Form?: Both panelists and fan debates question whether Arsenal’s talisman is showing signs of overuse or stagnation.
  • Arthur Rocher: “There are moments where the ball comes out to him and it’s just him and O’Reilly... and he just kind of settles for a corner. And that’s not what you want to see in a cup final.” (31:14)
• Expectation vs. Reality: For a supposed talisman, Saka has not delivered decisive moments in big fixtures this year.

6. Showboating and Personality in the Game (32:52–35:10)

• Cherki’s Keepy-Ups: The panel enjoys City’s Ryan Cherki showboating, noting its symbolism for City’s current swagger—and the need for entertaining personalities in football.
  • Adam Crafton: “One of the reasons you might not showboat is you think you might look stupid in 20 minutes time. And I think it kind of said something that... they're not coming back.” (33:17)
  • Arthur Rocher: “You need to see it. I mean, everyone talks about how boring football is becoming... when you can see someone who's having fun on the pitch, you just gravitate towards them.” (34:31)
• Ben White’s England Recall: Noted as a small but significant postscript in the ongoing storylines.

7. Tottenham’s Crisis and Sunderland’s Surprise (38:13–45:56)

• Tottenham’s Freefall: Discussion turns to Spurs’ embarrassing 3–0 home defeat to Forest. Adam calls for a managerial change, criticizing a lack of belief and tactical direction.
  • Adam Crafton: “By the moment they are sleepwalking into relegation.” (40:19)
• Sunderland’s Derby Joy and Premier League Progress: Sunderland’s impressive results, style of play, and squad depth as a promoted side are highlighted.
  • Arthur Rocher: “For a promoted side to go and attack the Premier League has been a real breath of fresh air.” (44:54)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Pep’s Legacy:
  “40th trophy. I mean, 40 is nuts, you know, as an amount of trophies… no one’s had him as long as English football’s had him.” — Adam Crafton (06:54)
• Guardiola’s Adaptability:
  “He had both experience and hunger yesterday.” — Adam Crafton (07:28)
• On Arsenal’s Missed Mental Step:
  “That fire in the bellies line really is so tiring to hear… you want to see actions.” — Arthur Rocher (24:59)
• On Saka’s Recent Output:
  “It is strange that, you know, as we get towards the end of the season, you think about individual awards. You wouldn’t even really think about him as, you know, someone you put in the team of the season.” — Adam Crafton (31:58)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Guardiola’s tactical edge and passion: 02:35–06:30
• Nico O’Reilly’s coming of age and the challenge for academy talent: 10:23–13:57
• The Arsenal goalkeeper controversy: 19:06–25:51
• Title race implications and Arsenal’s mentality: 25:51–29:56
• Bukayo Saka’s status and expectations: 29:20–32:52
• Cherki’s showboating & personality in football: 32:52–35:10
• Tottenham’s struggles and potential relegation worries: 38:13–41:42
• Sunderland’s bright season: 42:48–45:56

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Conclusion

This episode provided a sharp, honest look at the current Premier League landscape, with particular focus on the enduring brilliance of Pep Guardiola and the learning curve still ahead for Mikel Arteta’s Arsenal. The hosts blend tactical analysis, squad insights, and big-picture discussions, showcasing The Athletic’s trademark mix of reporting and opinion. Arsenal’s near-misses and City’s swagger defined the headline, while subplots at Tottenham and Sunderland round out a lively and varied episode.

Transcript

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The Athletic FC

[Ayo Akimolere]

welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. Manchester City claimed the first silverware of the season thanks to a Nico O'Reilly brace. For Arsenal, though, it was another opportunity missed. So what impact will this have on the title race? In with us today we've got Arthur Rocher, who's a regular on our Arsenal podcast, Handbrake Off. We've also got Adam Crafton as well, so Sunday's triumph was Pep Guardiola's 40th trophy as a manager, his fifth Carabao Cup. Adam, was this a tactical masterclass from the maestro himself?

[Adam Crafton]

To a certain extent, yeah. It did feel like he was reasserting himself a little bit, and you could see as the game went on, actually, what it meant to him. It's always quite nice, I think, when you see, probably not through Arsenal fans, but when you see these coaches who have won things so many times, be so engrossed and so just engaged in the outcome of, you know, this isn't the Champions League final, it's not the Premier League. But it was clearly very important, I think, for Pep Guardiola at this moment, where I think many people had kind of written his City team off in terms of. For this season, if not necessarily in this game. And potentially even his kind of reign at Manchester City, to a certain extent, had started to, you know, started to wonder if it was going to whimper out a little bit. So it did feel a little bit like, you know, kind of one of the old masters, just reasserting, hey, I'm still here and. And I'm still a problem. And by the way, you're not, you know, looking at the title race, you might not get this as easily as it felt when Max Dalman scored that goal a week ago. So I think there was a lot of layers to it. But it did feel like pep kind of reemerging.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, I mean, there were some layers to it. Manchester City coming into this after a Champions League blow. You're at Wembley. Was it a case of him reasserting himself and saying, look, you are definitely not lifting this trophy in the Premier League anytime soon without a fight?

[Arthur Rocher]

Yeah, it did feel like that. When you look at the way a City just set up in that first half, obviously everyone's kind of noticed that they didn't really go and chase Arsenal. They didn't chase the ball. They just kind of sat off and let Arsenal's indecision and confusion do the work. And that was something that a few teams have done, but not to that extent where they've had four players just across the width of the pitch and really shut down Declan Rice and Martin Zubamendi. So that was one thing, but also being in the stadium, I'm not sure how much it came across on tv, but the way City started the second half from kickoff in just keeping the ball on the floor and in Arsenal's half for about, I believe it was 1995 seconds it felt like that just set the tone for the second half and what came afterwards.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Well, Sam Lee was also at Wembley for us. Here's what he made of it.

[Sam Lee]

They are the Manchester City players celebrating behind me after they saved their best performance of the season for the Caravan Cup Final. I think a lot of people heading into it thought Arsenal was strongest. And look, that's been the story of the season, hasn't it? Like, City have been good. In my opinion, they're not quite there. And Arsenal, I don't think Arsenal are the best Premier League champions or would be champions, but they always know how to get a result. They're just strong, they're stable. You know what you're going to get. They're going to score from corners and look fair play. That's how they're doing it and it makes them so hard to play against. First 20 minutes we saw that, City, in my opinion, looked a bit timid. They looked afraid to lose the ball. But after that, they grew into it. First half, they were fantastic. Second half, superb. They kept winning the ball, they kept attacking. They won the ball again. They kept attacking. Nico O'Reilly, he's got that sense of goals. He's always been an attacking midfielder throughout his time at the academy. Started at left back today, started last season, had left back, came through the team last season, had left back this season as well, has moved into midfield this season, but today left back, but it scored the goals again, as he does. He knows how to get into those areas. City like those stood up crosses normally for harlot, but if you got a player like O'Reilly in there to do it, then great. Guardiolu, of course, we saw all his celebrations in going mad with the goals kicking, the advertising hoarding. For me, him getting his daughter on the pitch to celebrate is incredibly moving. It means a huge amount to him that this new City team that's been through so many changes can play pretty much like the old City team did. And that will give him incredible half for this season. But if he stays for the future in particular.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, I mean, Sam mentioned Nico O'Reilly there. I thought it was really interesting. But also, let's talk about Pep Guardiola as well. Look, there's something really interesting about the way he focused on this and we talk about bringing his kid on the field and all that kind of stuff, but, you know, he's got some air miles, Adam, and those air miles can get you over the line in moments like this, especially when there's adversity entailed as well.

[Adam Crafton]

40th trophy. I mean, 40 is nuts, you know, as an amount of trophies. And look, you know, you can talk about whatever you want. He's been at the biggest teams. He's had Messi. He's had, you know, circumstances at Manchester City in terms of money, in terms of spending, allegations, all of that stuff. But you just can't dispute how good this guy has been and. And how actually just how lucky we are that he has stayed in England for as long as he has, because no one's had him as long as English football's had him. You know, he's been here longer than he's been anywhere else. I still don't think he fully knows what he's going to do in the summer, to be honest. I think he's probably got an inkling, but I'm not sure he will be fully decided. I wonder if days like yesterday, which probably sort of provokes a bit of dread for other fans, because you kind of think, oh, when he's gone, everything will be easier, you know, for your own team. But he had both experience and hunger yesterday. And I think, you know, City also benefited from Arsenal missing a couple of important players, you know, as a. Odegaard timber the goalkeeper, obviously. And I think Arsenal didn't cope with that perhaps as well as. As well as perhaps a manager like Guardiola might have done. Quite frankly, you know, I think the way Arsenal came at the game with was very flat, really, after the first 20 minutes or so, where the road, the storm. I was really disappointed with Arsenal and I think any kind of diagnosis of that game that praises Guardiola must also bring into account that I think both Arteta and Arsenal fell short yesterday.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, I think you're right. City also had their injuries as well, especially across their back line. When Adam talks about Guardiola, I do wonder if in a weird way, the fact that he has been in the Premier League for so long and consistently been operating at that level, you almost come to expect that any team that's got a challenge will actually try and replicate that. But actually, it is so hard to have a team tweak it continuously and still win trophies continuously.

[Arthur Rocher]

Yeah. I mean, when you look at Arsenal's season so far, they've had to tweak throughout the year because Adam mentioned Erdogan there. He had three injuries by October this season. There have been other players where. Or positions, I should say, where multiple players have been injured at the same time. So in December, you look at right back and timber and white and mascara were all out. So Declan Rice had to play right back. So I think when you're looking at the season as a whole, it's something that Arsenal have had to contend with throughout the year. So I don't think Arteta would have been. I guess, obviously he wouldn't have liked to have had the players unavailable that were in Eze Timber and Odegaard, but having to try and find a different way to, I guess, hurt City wouldn't have been a new situation for him. I think what would be disappointing is the players didn't seem to have an answer for City when they changed that defensive structure and they couldn't really find a way out of it. I mean, there were moments where Declan Rice was asking for more movement from those who are a bit wider, and it just wasn't coming. And, yeah, that problem solving in real time, I think is more so what Arteta would be looking at rather than, okay, how do you keep tweaking and finding a way? Because they've shown that they've been able to do that throughout the season.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Okay, can we quickly talk about. Nico O'Reilly scored two goals, the difference maker for Guardiola. Adam, the first player to score twice in a Carabao cup final since Zlatan Ibrahimovic when he played for Manchester United. I mean, what a season that kid's having.

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah, it's a weird one because, like, last week, a few of us were asked to choose our England squads for the summer and I. I didn't have him in the squad because I'm a genius.

[Ayo Akimolere]

And look what he does.

[Adam Crafton]

And look what he does. But it was because I couldn't. He's one of those players where I couldn't work out, where a kind of immortal coach, which I would say Tuchel is compared to Guardiola, still an amazing coach, actually, like, where he puts him, you know, because I don't think in an international tournament you can probably put him as a left back just because there isn't, like, the training time to develop systems and styles in the way that Guardiola does. And then can you put him in midfield ahead of, you know, Rice, Mainoo, Wharton, Bellingham, probably other central midfielders I've forgotten there. Probably ahead of a Jordan Henderson, for example, as an option that can be versatile. But. But he's one of those players that's difficult if it's not Pep Guardiola, in terms of how you kind of handle him, because Pep's just sort of turned him into this Swiss army knife for a player that can basically, you Watch him. And you think he could play anywhere on the pitch. I could imagine him at right back, left back, centre, midfield, playing in from wide positions as a false 9, maybe not as a centre back or a goalkeeper, but other than that, I can kind of imagine him anywhere on the pitch. He's so talented. He's got a great frame, he's skillful, he's got this sense for goal. I just don't have the imagination of Guardiola to work out where he fits for England. And I guess that's for Tuchel to work out.

[Ayo Akimolere]

I do wonder though, with all the business they've done, are actually one of the fruits of this season for Manchester City is a kid that's come from the academy in Nico O'Reilly. I mean, he was so good yesterday and his movement's great. Defensively, he looks quite good under this system, as Adam says. But a really impressive season for him so far.

[Arthur Rocher]

Yeah, definitely. And I think when you're looking at how his seasons developed, obviously Sam and yourself mentioned his kind of education has become as a midfielder. And what's always nice to see is not just an academy player, but an academy player that can break the mold and almost be a. Someone who doesn't even have a position, if that makes sense. So he's playing left back, but he's not really playing left back. And I know you might want to get onto this in a little bit, but Arsenal had that in Miles Lewis scali.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, yeah.

[Arthur Rocher]

Now talk about it last season and of course, with his minutes being very limited so far this season, Arsenal fans are craving to see more of that because it just brings a different energy to matches. And you saw that with O'Reilly yesterday. Throughout the season, obviously he's more of a goal scorer than Louis Skelly is, but what Louis Skelly offers is those kind of runs from midfield, those driving runs with the ball and with O'Reilly. I think from a Manchester City perspective, among all the kind of the new players that have come in this season, Semenya Gehe, Shaki Reinders. I think having someone who really carries the flag for the academy as someone who's not just, you know, being sent out on loan or being sold like James Trafford was before he came back, I think is really important.

[Adam Crafton]

Oh, what has actually gone on this season with Louis Skelly? Because I think from the outside, you know, everyone remembers it's actually kind of the fixture last season, wasn't it, where Arsenal won 5, 1 and he had this huge role in it and he was, you know his personality was all over that game. Like what's, what's happened.

[Arthur Rocher]

Yeah, it's been a difficult one because when you look at last season, both him and IFA Manieri both benefited from maybe some circumstances in terms of injuries. So you look at left back in particular. Riccardo Calafiore just did not have the fitness record that he has done this season and that opened a lane for Louis Skelly to do what he'd done at such a high level. Then with Ifa Manieri, he's number 10, but a lot of his minutes last year came on the right wing after Bukayo Saka got a three month hamstring injury. So those moments kind of opened the doors for those two. But what really made them stood out, as you say Adam, was their personalities because you saw players who had no fear and just played football the way they wanted to play. I think this season there haven't been as many kind of opportunities, especially at left back with Hincapier coming in initially on loan, but that will probably become permanent in the summer. So with Louis Skelly, he's had I guess another layer of competition to contend with, which at 19 probably isn't what you want because especially after a season like last year, you really want to kind of take your game to another level, which just hasn't been able to happen.

[Podcast Producer/Host Voiceover]

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[Ayo Akimolere]

Let's talk about the keepers, Adam it was something that divided many Arsenal fans before the game, thinking put your best team forward for the final, in hindsight, it's great to say that perhaps it should have chosen David Raya. But Arteta said he wouldn't change it if he had the opportunity to do it again.

[Adam Crafton]

Then he's wrong. He's wrong because. No, because he's not won enough trophies to be doing this. I really do think this. And I listened just before we recorded to a clip where Jamie Carragher last night was talking about. He was talking about a comparison because obviously man City did the same. Right. James Trafford came in. But the difference I think that Jamie Carragher outlined, which hadn't really occurred to me, but I think is right, is Pat Guardiana did owe James Trafford something in that James Trafford was signed as a number one goalkeeper. And then all of a sudden, within two weeks, you know, Donna Rummer arrived and that changed. That's kind of changed James Trafford's career and probably misled him a little bit, to be honest. Whereas with Arsenal, I don't really understand what Mikel Arteta owes Kepa. And that was the point that Carragher made. And it's the point that I really do strongly agree with. You know, Kepa was signed as a number two goalkeeper. He wasn't signed us. If we get to a final, then you're definitely going to play. Unless that's something that's gone on behind the scenes, I doubt that's the case. And Arsenal simply haven't won enough trophies to be taking a risk like that in that position to basically say one of our best players, which Raya has been this season, doesn't need to play against the second best team in the country. And I thought it was an unnecessary risk in a game where Arsenal were already without two key positions, you know, right back and central midfield. I just didn't see the. The need for it. And yeah, of course, look, no one can, you know, no one can predict that he's going to drop the ball. But he is a goalkeeper that we've seen over the years, has his moments. Coaches do this in. In finals. Arteta's not the only one. And Liverpool did it with Kelleher as well over the years and Alisson wouldn't play and City have done it with Ortega when Edison wouldn't play. But I just, I just think if you've not won trophies for several years and you. You're trying to just get over the line, get your best players on the pitch. Don't overthink it. Just get your best players on the pitch.

[Sam Lee]

Yeah.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Is there a theory here though, Art, that You know, Arsenal have assembled this very expensive team and that they've bought the personnel to get them over the line for the right circumstances. Hence why perhaps he made that decision.

[Arthur Rocher]

It feels like this is more of a football question than an Arsenal question, because as Adam said, other teams have done it, Arsenal have done it previously under Arsene Wenger. When you look at the FA cup wins in the 2010s, I mean, the first one, Lukas Fabianski started in goal, and he actually had a similar moment to Kepa yesterday where he's run out almost to the touchline and Hull had a chance to score, but fortunately for Arsenal, they missed it. So it's a really. I think it just comes down to, okay, when you're in that position, what matters more to you? Winning or being a good guy? And I think when Arteta looks at it, I think he'll probably stand by his decision. But in future cup finals, I know he wouldn't have made that decision, say in the Champions League final, for instance. But when you're at a stage where you haven't won for so long, are you going to go and say, okay, all the best players that are available are the ones who you're going to trust? I think he might do.

[Adam Crafton]

Now, why would he not make that decision in the Champions League, but make it in the Carabao Cup? Like, is that not just arrogant, like, oh, this trophy is more important, basically? What. What makes this final different from. From that, other than. Obviously, we know what makes it different.

[Ayo Akimolere]

I mean, the prestige of the Champions League versus the Carabao Cup. I mean, two different.

[Adam Crafton]

No, of course, but like, what. What says the Arsenal on that level where they can say, we have different priorities? It's a team that hasn't got the medals yet to be doing that. That's what I'm saying. I don't mean that as a dig, as an attack or anything like that. I'm just. And even for Breyer, actually, Raya's not got the medals, you know, to be doing that, he needs the experience of playing in finals, of winning finals. And that defense, you know, which was already disrupted, I think it would have benefited yesterday from having its best goalkeeper for continuity, as well as Saliba and Gabriel. Obviously, you've not got your best two fullbacks in. I wouldn't say so. There was a. There was both a football reason. And I think that the kind of go and win the game, you know, it's that feeling, I think, that kind of neutrals have had with Arsenal for the last few years of you know, just go and get yourselves over the line. So, I mean, someone said. Was it. Arteta said yesterday, you know, this will give us more fire in our bellies. What this team is on in the last eight months has been incredible.

[Ayo Akimolere]

And we're going to use this disappointing

[Adam Crafton]

and this fire in the belly to

[Ayo Akimolere]

have the most amazing two months that we have ever together.

[Adam Crafton]

I saw one of the top comments on the Athletics article about it yesterday, was saying, you know, after all the near miss of recent years, Arsenal must have enough fire in their belly to start kind of fuel, Mount Vesuvius. Right. Like, how much, how much more fire do we need to get over the line? And that's just how it felt to me, you know, as a neutral yesterday, kind of actually wanting them to win the game and get over the line. I just thought, just give yourselves the best chance.

[Arthur Rocher]

Yeah, that. Sorry, that fire in the bellies line really is so tiring to hear.

[Adam Crafton]

Right.

[Arthur Rocher]

Because at the end, it's just words. You want to see actions. And also, to Adam's point earlier, when you look at the squad as a whole, not just David Raya, but it's a lot of their first cup finals as a group together. I mean, players. Kai Havertz has played in the Champions League final, but this is his first cup final for Arsenal. I know some of them played in the community shield, but this is different. And when you're having that shared experience as a group, you learn how to shift momentum like Manchester City did. People just simplify it to getting over the line, but I think there are moments where you can really capitalize on, I guess, the feeling and the energy inside the stadium, which Manchester City did way better than Arsenal.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah. I tell you what, this feels like Arsenal therapy. Are Adam asking the difficult questions, asking Arsenal fans to dig deeper within themselves? All right, let's talk about the title race, because what impact do you think that will have on the title race? Because let's not forget Arsenal still have to go to City in April and they've got to play at the Etihad again.

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah, I mean, I can imagine after that game, a lot of Arsenal fans start doom thinking, spiraling a little bit in terms of, you know, you think, well, it's nine points now, but really it's three points because they're going to beat us and they're going to win the game in hand and then what's going to happen? You know, I can imagine that's. That's the process. I think the fact that Man City have to go to Chelsea before they play Arsenal could actually be important in it in terms of potentially a tricky game there for City in a few weeks time. What impact does it have? I think it does have an impact in terms of when the teams play each other. Because yesterday it felt a bit like City being there and basically saying, you know, you stay where you are, you know, we'll tickle your tom is, we'll go back with a trophy and then we'll come for you. I'm not sure necessarily that it will work like that just because City haven't shown the consistency in the League and Arsenal are still very, very difficult to beat for most teams in the League. So I would still have confidence as I have all season in Arsenal. I don't think it helps their case yesterday in terms of keeping people kind of sane and calm and balanced going into an international period at all. The thing that worried me most just to go slightly back onto the game, but I think it is related is after Arsenal went two nil down, there was still a lot of the game to go. You know, I think there was over 20 minutes to go. They didn't look like a team that was capable of coming back. I've seen enough finals over the years where crazy stuff has happened. You know, if you get one, who knows what will happen? The crowd are up, set pieces, you know what Arsenal like at set pieces. That was what disappoints me most. It was the fact that a team that's going for that was going for a quadruple, that is still in line to maybe do a treble, didn't seem capable of coming back and didn't seem to have the belief to come back. So that's the only bit that made me worried for if that gap does go to three points, has this team just still got, you know, that courage to risk and go for games? Those questions we've had all season where, you know, last week against Everton, we thought some of it was extinguished a bit because there was, you know, he brought down and on. I think all of that risk that he showed against Everton was actually then absent again yesterday. So it felt a bit like a step backwards just on that.

[Arthur Rocher]

I think Eze plays a massive role in that risk element because when you look at him playing well, part of that is just taking shots, shooting on sight. In the Everton game, he didn't score, but the amount of shots he was taking just helped change the energy in that game. And of course the one he does score against Leverkusen helps after felt like a million amazing saves. From their goalkeeper. So I think part of it is also the players just seizing the moment and saying, okay, maybe the perfect pass or shot isn't on, but I'm going to take it anyway and see what happens.

[Adam Crafton]

What's going on with Saka?

[Ayo Akimolere]

That was my next question yesterday.

[Adam Crafton]

He was. He was barely. He was barely in the game. And I started to just think it feels like a while since I've seen him, you know, really take a game. I love him. I love him. You know, for me, for the summer, you know, if I think of England and I think of the right wing, I think it's like one of the only positions I'm not really thinking about. But then I actually think, am I just going off memories rather than actually what I've seen over the last few months or so? I'm just curious, how do Arsenal fans feel about his form at the moment?

[Arthur Rocher]

Yeah, there has been, I guess, a growing debate among Arsenal fans whether he's been kind of too ineffective, whether he's been overplayed. I mean, one thing with that is I remember when he was first breaking through, when he was 19, and I wrote a piece about how many minutes he was playing. I think at that point he was Arsenal's most used player as a teenager. And a lot of fans continue to bring that up when his, I guess, explosiveness doesn't seem to be at the same level that it was back then. Of course, he had a major injury last season, but when you look at this year, I think for me personally, at the. In the first half of the season, he was still producing, even though his numbers weren't what they were. There are moments or games where he wouldn't come away with a goal or an assist, but he'd been the player who'd really carried the game for Arsenal. One game that really sticks out for me is Fulham away, for instance, where he had Ryan Sessignon on toast. But in recent weeks, it's been quite inconsistent. He's had good games like Wolves away, even though Arsenal drew that. He played as a number 10, scored the first goal and really kind of helped set the tone, but came off and Arsenal couldn't keep the the lead. But then there have been other games where, against Bayer Leverkusen, for instance, he was hooked on 60 Minutes, I believe, and that was a moment where, I guess, Mikel Arteta showed that he could make a big, bold decision in taking off a player who's been captain for most of the year. Yesterday, I felt like he could have taken on his man a Lot more. There are moments where the ball comes out to him and it's just him and O'Reilly and he just kind of settles for a corner. And that's not what you want to see in a Cup final. You want to see someone who really forces the defender to make a decision. And it didn't feel like he did that enough at all this season.

[Adam Crafton]

I was just looking. The only goals he scored against top half Saints are pretty against Brighton and Brentford. And last season there was only one against big six team in Liverpool once and they scored against Madrid and PSG in the Champions League. But I do think, you know, when you think of those, like, key, you know, he's the guy you put on the back of your shirt. Saka. He is Arsenal's. He is Arsenal's star. And it is strange that, you know, as we get towards the end of the season, you think about individual awards. You wouldn't even really think about him as, you know, someone you put in the team of the season, even. I don't think for the pfa, which is really a strange thing for the headline name. And I say I love him, but I do think over the next few weeks, Arsenal just need a bit more from him, to be honest.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Okay, well, surely the last word on this one at Wembley has to be Ryan Turkey. Adam. The Kikiyup is the showboating. I've seen Arsenal fans go for him on socials today, but people forget Thierry. He only did something quite similar against Real Madrid in the Champions League. I mean, a unicorn play, I would say, for Pep Guardiola, but it just showed the levels in which City were at yesterday in terms of just being comfortable with winning that match.

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah. And the fact they didn't feel at risk or threatened or like anything bad might happen. You know, one of the reasons you might not showboat is you think you might look stupid in 20 minutes time. And I think it kind of said something that Cherky, maybe Cherky would do that anyways. You know, that kind of character. And he's fun, but I think there's probably a bit of they're not coming back. You know, this lot aren't coming back in terms of, like the actual stuff that he did. One, it was fun, it was funny. It was exactly what I want Cherokee to do as a player. It's also absolutely what I wanted Ben White to do.

[Ayo Akimolere]

I want the beat, the clattering.

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah. I just thought, like, from both of them, it was exactly what I wanted them to do. You know, I don't want the opposition, to tolerate it, you know, to, you know, basically be pissed around by, you know, talented players on the opposition team. When you're losing in a final, I think it's, it's kind of right that they respond to it, but I also think it's fun and it's right that there's players in the game who are happy to do that. So I thought, you know, top marks all round.

[Arthur Rocher]

I think it just comes back to the personality word again. You need to see it. I mean, everyone talks about how boring football is becoming, but when you, I know maybe Arsenal fans didn't like it, but I mean, throughout the season, last season, even when he was at Lyon, Shaki's a player I love watching and he's someone, I think when you can see someone who's having fun on the pitch, you just gravitate towards them no matter what team you support. And actually on Ben White, as we're recording, he's been added to the England squad.

[Ayo Akimolere]

So he's back in the England squad after so long. Wow. Wow, great news.

[Arthur Rocher]

So that's a big moment for him.

[Adam Crafton]

I mean, to be fair, everyone is in the England squad, but congratulations.

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[Adam Crafton]

Foreign.

[Podcast Producer/Host Voiceover]

You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast

[Adam Crafton]

with Aya Akamolere in by Williams A1E off the bench to make absolutely sure this is Nottingham Forest day.

[Ayo Akimolere]

All right, let's move on because, you know, if Arsenal thought it was a bad day at the office, another North London club, their rivals in particular certainly had a bad one at the Tottenham hotspur Stadium, losing 3 nil at home to Nottingham Forest. Adam, do you sack Tudor now or just let it let the season ride out? I mean, I don't know how this one's working.

[Adam Crafton]

Is this like the kind of the medication for Arsenal fans?

[Ayo Akimolere]

I've taken the pill already. I'm already smiling on the inside. Yeah.

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah. I think I thought he should have gone after the Liverpool game, to be honest. Despite the fact they got the draw. I think they were probably thinking after the first Atletico Madrid game, let him sort of take the Liverpool away game, take whatever comes there and then we'll get someone else in maybe for, you know, going into this big game against Forest. But then I think the dynamics of that Liverpool game where spurs did okay, sort of deluded people a bit into thinking, oh, this guy could, could pick it up and it seems to have not really worked out that way. You know, I also, I don't feel comfortable sort of beating up on him. It sounds like he had a, a personal bereavement as well yesterday. He didn't do his post match media game duties after the game. But you know, spurs are, spurs are in a really bad place. They're actually quite good first half yesterday, but then as soon as they went a goal down, it just sort of fell apart. And yeah, I think, you know, you've now got an international period. It does feel kind of the responsible time to make a change. Who on earth that person is at this point? God knows. I mean you probably just, you probably do go for the vibes of someone with a club connection. People have talked about, you know, a Harry Redknapp and a Ryan Mason combination or something like that and it's crazy. The spurs can be at that point, but actually if you just need to go and win three games, maybe that's, maybe that's the kind of crazy point they're at that you're going to do. I, I don't know. But by the moment they are sleepwalking into relegation.

[Arthur Rocher]

When you're looking at the three teams that are, I guess in and around so them, Forest and West Ham. I feel like when you watch those teams, barring the draw at Liverpool, Tottenham are the one that you don't really see real belief from for sustained periods in games. And when you're talking to people who are around it and let's say Harry Redknapp's name comes up, the thing they mention is they want more of a man manager to get the emotion right rather than focusing on tactics and different kind of setups. It's more about that belief and how you go into games. And I just don't think Tottenham have had that at already this season.

[Adam Crafton]

I mean they could still get out of it partly because, you know, West Ham yesterday by all accounts were very poor at Villa and also Leeds look vulnerable because they can't score goals and they're kind of like weirdly drawing their way to, to stay and go, but I think they're catchable as well. The one thing I did think after that first Atletico game is my, my view at that point was actually spurs should go and get their next full time manager now and not wait even

[Ayo Akimolere]

if they go down.

[Adam Crafton]

Well, I would say, I would be saying to that manager that you think is good enough to run Tottenham.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Okay, okay, go and win three games,

[Adam Crafton]

you know, I mean, yeah, right. Like you Know, we're not asking for the world here, you know, go and win three games to keep spurs up. Now, at that point I was thinking about people like Marco Silva, Oliver Glassner, Iriola, all of whom are out of contract at the end of the season that you could go and buy out. Now, of course, they may not be prepared to move now. They may not be prepared to do that. They may not be prepared to take the risk to reputations and whatever. But I would also think, you know, you could challenge them and say, first of all, you could have been a hero by going in and winning, you know, two, two or three of your last seven or eight games. Secondly, you get a good look at the players ahead of whatever you need to do in the summer. And thirdly, you probably get a big bonus for staying up. I think there's ways that they could have kind of done that, but they didn't. And now I don't think you're going to be able to get that with anyone because it's too far gone and maybe you wouldn't be able to. But I would have liked to have seen spurs at least be trying that at that stage rather than kind of let the situation drift more.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Let's finish on Sunderland, because I really want to talk about Sunderland, you know, spurs, his next opponent, actually. But yet again, another Derby Day win for Sunderland. Beating Newcastle 21 at St James's Park. Unbeaten in 11 Premier League games against Newcastle, winning eight and drawing three. The longest unbeaten run in Derby history. A lot of people had them to go down, Adam, and they are actually enjoying their time in the Premier League.

[Adam Crafton]

I've been amazing, been amazing. And even yesterday, you know, I turned on that game. I saw it was 1 nil. And in my head I'm like, oh, it's a promoted team. 1 nil down already. That's probably that for the game. And then you watch them and they just, they work their way back into the game. You know, they didn't just sit back. They're very physical, very competitive. There's lots of sort of like about them, but like a shocking result for Newcastle because if they'd have won yesterday, they'd have been well in the mix for that, for that Champions League place and for them to potentially miss out on Europe altogether. I think. I think what you're seeing, I know like meant to be talking about somewhere, but what you see with Newcastle is they have these kind of swing seasons where they're either not in Europe and are a real threat for the top four or five or they're in Europe and they don't have the depth of squad and they can't cope. And their window last summer was really bad, both in terms of the way they executed it and the outcomes of it just haven't really worked at all. And they've paid the price for it. And you wonder what the impacts of that might be this summer with some of those players who are at real peak ages, whether it's Bruno or Tonali Live, Lamento, Lewis Hall, Anthony Gordon. You wonder if one or two of those might say, well, you know, look, we've been here a few years. The club hasn't become that fixture in the top four or five. You know, they're in there one of two years and we need to be at a team that can compete more. And that would be a shame for that, for that project. But, you know, Sunderland to win home and away is amazing for them.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, they've been great, haven't they? And the style of football as well has been really interesting. They've given Arsenal a run for their money this season many a time.

[Arthur Rocher]

Yeah, both. Both games. And I think when you're looking at how they play they were at the start of the season, they were the team to watch, really. And how they've gone about, I guess, being a newly promoted side, I'd include Leeds in this as well. After that first time they played City and they had the little switch in kind of system, but for a promoted side to go and attack, the Premier League has been a real breath of fresh air. And also the way that they've set up the squad, I think their depth has really come through. I mean, at the start of the season, it was all about Wilson Isidore. Then yesterday it's all about Brian Brobbie scoring the winner. Obviously they've been in a shootout with Newcastle. I mean, throughout the whole season, they've been kind of one place between each other for a lot of the year. So I think for them, they obviously had that in their minds as well. And you hope that they kind of build on it next season and not kind of just, you know, rest on what's happened this year.

[Ayo Akimolere]

All right, let's leave it there, gents. Adam, thank you for the Arsenal therapy. I'm sure a reality check for many Arsenal fans. I appreciate your time as always and also thank you guys for joining us as well. We'll catch you soon.

[Podcast Producer/Host Voiceover]

You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavrou and Jay Beal. The executive producer was a Moorhead to listen to other great athletic podcasts for free. Search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify, and all the usual places. The Athletic FC podcast is an athletic media company production.

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[Ayo Akimolere]

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