Ayo Akinwalere (4:36)

Right, we're going to go into this a little later on, but, you know, in terms of his age as well, because I find it really fascinating that he's still a kid at school, technically, if you think about it. But Jacob, you know, as well as covering Aston Villa, and I know they won the FA Youth cup last season. I know you were in the youth ranks at Bournemouth as well, at the academy. Look, Stu's talking about Max Dalman.

Jacob Tanswell (4:55)

Then.

Ayo Akinwalere (4:55)

I'm sure you're thinking, oh, that's a young me. I swear. I swear I had that in my locker as well back in the day. But really, when you see a player like him, and also we talk about Rio n', Gomoa, how good are they for their age?

Stu James (5:07)

Massively. You know, you go like Stu references, you go through social media clips, you know, you see show reels of them, you see them doing tricks, but when you see them, 90 minutes. The key for a manager, even in the age group above, is to trust them, to trust they're going to do the job. Because they're not operating at levels where they're under 16s, under 18s, they're operating at the high end where, you know, financial repercussions, you know, jobs are on the line. To be able to be that young but that mature for the manager to earn their trust is probably the biggest thing. When I was at Bournemouth, though, I was a center back, which was kind. Just labouring every age group and I didn't even think about playing in the year above. If anyone had played in the year above, you were like, wow, word would spread. You think they're unbelievable player. You know, I got up to under 16 level, but the first team was so far away, like they were training different players, you barely saw them. And if any of our players went to the youth team, you'd be like, wow, how was it? What was the manager like? Are they scary? Are they bigger than us? You know, Max Dalm was playing with players that are 10, 15 years older than him and he's been trusted to play, to do the job that Arteta wants. It's quite exceptional. That's a short answer.

Ayo Akinwalere (6:08)

Even at that age, though, when you were playing at Bournemouth, were there some kids that you thought, they're looking a bit higher now, you know, because I feel like ambition and all those kind of things are all relative to age, right? Like, there will be some kids even at that young age whose parents are like, you know what? You need to aim for the first team at some point, lad. And they're almost rearing them for that moment.

Stu James (6:26)

Yeah, it's a bit like society. Everyone wants things quicker, don't they, nowadays, you see, with Agents coming in, you know, trying to get players younger. Everyone wants to push for that first team, young as possible, really. And you see examples now of players that are 17, 18 and being impatient that they're not on a first team and try to move, move away. And there's always players at every academy where they may have a parent or they may have that belief in, a belief in themselves where they think, you know, I'm not happy where I am, I should be pushing for the first team. Often these players that are 16, 17, the reason why they're pushing is because they physically develop more than everyone else, they're bigger than everyone. That's why buyer banding and that type of thing is coming into the sport because it favors people that are physically more mature, they advance quicker. But then you look at Max do and he's not, he's not getting to the level he's getting to. He's not playing for the first team because he's bigger than other 15 year olds. He's getting there because of his technical ability, which I think is probably the biggest credit to him really. He's not just shrugging players off the ball, beating people in a sprint that his age. He's doing it because technically he's so precocious and mentally as well, he sees things that players at his age don't.

Jacob Tanswell (7:29)

Really fascinating point what Jacob makes there because long before I went to watch him, when I first heard Dahman's name and there was this guy playing way above his age, the thing that came in my mind immediately was exactly what Jacob said. He must be a really early developer. He must be so much more powerful than the other boys. Now he is a fantastic athlete, but when you watch Downman for the first time, you go and see him, you don't think, oh wow, look at the size of him. That is not what has got him to where he is now. It is this incredible, as Jacob says, technical ability, his talent to really go and express himself. He's got this explosive pace, of course. But often, as Jacob says, what will happen in academies is the boys who will play up will be the biggest, strongest players in that age group. And if you look at academies additionally, there are an incredible amount of boys born between September and December, what they call Q1, right, Jacob, the first quarter, it's really, it's almost unfair, it's disproportionate that it's really, if you've got a birth around that time, you have got, on the face of it, a better opportunity to be in an Academy. And equally, if you're like a June, July, August, then you're going to have to have really exceptional talent for someone to kind of think, yeah, we'll persevere with this. And like you mentioned there about biobanding, they might even play players down to give them more time to develop. That's something I know we're going to talk about Benfica a bit later on. That's what they've done with players over time. But with Dalman, it's just astonishing to see the way he's gone through those age groups. But he's done it right from the start. He joined Arsenal at the age of four. He was playing up almost immediately then, so this has kind of been a natural progression for him to get to where he is.

Ayo Akinwalere (9:04)

We'll talk about how, you know, we manage those expectations a little later on. But Jacob, let's talk about Ethan Munieri, handed a Premier league debut at 15 at Arsenal. Jeremy Monga at Leicester, made seven appearances as a 15 year old in the Premier League last season as well. I don't know if you have the insight, because I've just been noticing this, but why do you think so many of these young kids are getting a chance, at least at such an early age right now?

Stu James (9:29)

I think there's a couple of reasons. One, I touched on words seems to spread quicker now in this digital age. You see these social media accounts where they're finding clips of 14, 15 year olds doing some unbelievable dribbles and they're online and they're posted everywhere. But also recruitment is becoming more aggressive since Brexit as well. A lot of clubs are now trying to scout internally within the uk, so there's more competition for players. And clubs know that if they have a real promise and a real gem on their hands, there's going to be a lot of other clubs that are circling and they'll say, and they'll offer the land basically more money. When they get to 17 professional contract on this amount of money, they'll say, you can come into our first team. So although it's not all because of this, there's a feeling that you need to show them there's a pathway straight away, otherwise they'll leave because someone else, another agent, another club are promising that there is. And there's been a few times at the clubs I've covered at Bournemouth, Southampton and Aston Villa where there's been some real properly good talents, but they haven't played, they haven't come on in one game and that's put their Nose out of joint, even if they're 17, 18, and their agents knows out of joint and they think, okay, we'll go somewhere else. And at the end of that season, they do go somewhere else. So it's a combination of clubs wanting to show there is a pathway and we do trust you, we do really like you, but also just how good they are that managers go, yep, I fully trust them to come on in the game and be good.

Ayo Akinwalere (10:44)

Yeah. I just think about what I was doing at 15. I was trying to serve at the local cafe, do you know what I mean? In Birmingham. And he's a kid, Stu, and, you know, we could go on. Even Ethan Nanwerry or Jeremy Monger rubbing shoulders with genuine superstars, you know, maybe even traveling with them, as we're seeing in preseason, to your countries far afield, man, it's insane.

Jacob Tanswell (11:05)

It is incredible. And like, there was a nice message that went out on social media from Max Dalman's school in the wake of him making his senior debut on this tour. It said, you know, words is a really simply worded message, but it said something like, congratulations to our year 10 pupil, Max D. It said, didn't even say Max. Max down. Max D. On playing for Arsenal's first team. It's the sort of thing that someone, you know might say, just want to say congratulations to our, you know, our year 10 pupil, Luke, who made his first half century for his local cricket club on the weekend kind of thing. And yet this is a guy who's playing for Arsenal's first team. It is insane. And I thought that when I was going to write about him, because I was thinking, you know, hang on, you're year 10 pupil, you're still like 18 months away from doing your GCSes. You're, you know, three years away from being able to drive a car, yet. It's crazy. And presumably, you know, he goes into Arsenal, he's been for some time, he's been gone into Colney, London colony to train with. Arsenal's first team are under 21s two days a week. And then on the other days, I don't know, he must be in the playground kicking about with his mates, picking teams. You know, that is. That. That is bonkers, you know, right. It's all of that. Living his life on fast forward must be so surreal for his family too. But, yeah, the whole thing is bonkers.

Ayo Akinwalere (12:16)

Well, timing when it comes to offering opportunity is something that is always hotly debated when an exciting young talent emerges. Over on our Arsenal PODC handbrake off. Amy Lawrence is in no doubt as to whether Dman is ready. It's really hard not to get terribly excited because he is exceptional in every way it seems for what, you know, like I said, even if he was 17 or 18 and looking like he looks and playing like he plays, you'd be tremendously excited. If he costs 60 million quid from somewhere else he'd be purring he's a 15 year old lady that's, you know, born not too far from, you know, the Arsenal training ground, Hertfordshire areas and come through an Arsenal family. It's mind boggling to think how good he already is. Never mind how good he's going to be. I think I just find myself trying to work out how to best handle it. Because while you do want to be careful, I also think you have to be fair to talents. You have to respect talent. Yeah, I love that. Respect talent because that is what we're in this game for, gents. We love to see talent emerge and we love to get excited by that talent. What do you think about that phrase, respect the talent, Stu?

Jacob Tanswell (13:33)

Yeah, spot on. It's that old adage. I wasn't it, if you're good enough, you're old enough. He has the talent. There's no doubt about that at all. To me, absolutely. He is comfortable playing at first team level for Arsenal, I believe. You know, you see those clips, preseason games against Newcastle that's just in a little cameo where he's lighting the game up, he's influencing the game. I think a big thing for young players. Sometimes when they go in and train with the first team or play with the first team, they're very inhibited. They play safe. They are like consumed by fear. Jacob and I may well have had those kind of experiences. I certainly did at Swindon when I went into the reserves which at the time then was playing against men, it wasn't an under 21, under 23 league. You were playing against the first team players who didn't play in the Premier League on a Saturday for their clubs. And all I would be thinking was play safe, play safe. Don't get a rollicking off one of the other players for making a mistake. These guys obviously have the talent but they all also have the mentality too to go in there and really express themselves. So I think the other they often talk about four pillars. So there's the technical side. He ticks that box. Clearly tactical. I think he's got a great understanding of the game. We don't even know what position he's going to end up in yet Damon, he could play on the wing. Lots of people think he'll end up as a 10. There's even talk of him being a kind of hybrid 8, 10. Then you look at the physicality and it's really interesting, you know, reading James's piece reflecting on the tour and obviously the conversations they had with people there and how Arteta really gave a lot of thought to whether he played down in that Newcastle game at all, because he knew it would be a really physical test. And he's thinking, you know, even talking about bone density and things like that, you know, can he cope with the heavy challenges that might come in? I think I'm right in saying he was the most fouled player in that game, even though he was only on for half an hour and obviously one of those fouls led to a penalty. The other really interesting thing that James flagged was it said that when Arsenal look at their data, Damon's physical output in training is completely comparable to any first team player. So he is ready on that level. And then I think the final element here is fascinating for me because there's been loads of players over the years who've had amazing talent, but they haven't necessarily had the mentality to go with it. And Dalman clearly has that he will go in and absolutely express himself and not have any sense of fear whatsoever. Now, the interesting side, what we don't know yet, he's. Now there's this huge hype around him, which I'm sure Arsenal didn't want, but it's impossible to dampen that in any way. You look at the back pages of the papers after the first game on Tour and it's full of of Downman headlines. How will he handle that? Everything suggests really well, given what we know about his mentality, the strong family support around him. But the other side of it, what happens when things go a little bit wrong? What if he makes a few mistakes? What if his performances just dip a bit, if he goes into the first team? And the side of it that I really don't like now, and it concerns me with all young players, is social media. You know, that wasn't there when I was playing, but I think that's a brutal world. Even if the player doesn't engage with that himself, family members often do. They get affected by it. So there are a lot of things to consider. But on the face of it, he's in a really, really good place and I'd be amazed if we don't see him feature next season a reasonable amount and I think he's nailed on to become the Premier League's youngest ever goalscorer.

Ayo Akinwalere (16:39)

Well, next, let's discuss how clubs prepare their youngsters for that breakthrough.

Jacob Tanswell (16:46)

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Ayo Akinwalere (19:58)

But he's kept his composure, kept the ball. Now he sets off and skips away from the Guitarian.

Jacob Tanswell (20:02)

Oh, that's brilliant.

Ayo Akinwalere (20:04)

He's brilliant. But when it comes to players reaching the very top while still teenagers, it's hard not to look at Lamine Yamal. He was 15 years old, 9 months and 16 days when he made his debut. Before reaching adulthood, he had won, listen to this, La Liga and the Euros. He's won the Copper Trophy and European Golden Boy and named in the team of the tournament for the Euros and Champions League. Stu, I mean, Arsene Wegga recently said, you know, no one this age has ever paid over a hundred games by I think the age of 17 or whatever. I mean, this is quite exceptional. Let's also not say this isn't normal at all, is it?

Jacob Tanswell (20:42)

It's not normal at all. No, absolutely. And I think, I think the stat is 17 years, 292 days. When he played that 100th game for Barcelona, Messi was 20. When he got to that point, Ronaldo was about to turn 20. Mbappe was 19. You know, that really kind of. We're talking about three unbelievable players there, three of the greatest in this generation. And there's Jamal playing that number of games, but not just playing that number of games. Again, having a really big influence on those games. You know, the amount of. I think he scored 33 goals in those matches. You know, his goals and assists, the numbers that really matter, the attacking output are incredible. So it is freakish, really. You Know what, what he's done. I mean, I guess if there was a concern it would be what does that look like in terms of burnout? You know, should he be playing that number of games in such a short space of time so quickly? Everything at the minute suggests he can cope with. With that perfectly fine. But if you look at his last two seasons and bear in mind last season, obviously he won the euros with Spain. It's the international games on top. He has a short break, then he goes straight back with Barcelona this season because they didn't play in the club World cup. He's had a slightly longer break. But yeah, in terms of what he's doing, that is just. It's just amazing really. You know, nothing compares with that.

Ayo Akinwalere (21:55)

Yeah. Jacob, you know, we look at Yamau, we look at Ngamoa, we look at Dalman, obviously see your mouse way ahead of those. The. The latter two. But how impressive is it though that these three players I've just mentioned are breaking through into teams that are genuinely at the top of their game. Barcelona. What a season, right? The last. The growth of the Hansen flick. Incredible. Arsenal. We see the growth. Liverpool Premier League winners. I mean that is quite exceptional, isn't it?

Stu James (22:23)

It is. And often you see a lot of young players when in cup competitions, in the Carabel cup, in the early rounds or towards the end of the season when it's not much to play. Maybe the club want a bit of PR or they want a bit of positivity into the next season, thinking these might be the guys that break through next year or the year after. But they're in an environment like you say, that are full of. They've got. They've got beasts in that squad that are pushing to win and constantly. There's no. It's unforgiving really. You know, you're not in a player. Wickham Wanderers away in the second round of a cup. They just went to Wickham Wonders. But it's like, you know, for squad rotation, you're coming in it playing in Champions League like Stu mentioned. You're even playing physically against big giants against Newcastle, even in pre season and you're considered a first team player. You're considered to come in and do your job as well as a Martin Odegaard would do, for example. So what these guys are doing that you mentioned is wonderful and the climate they're doing it in is so challenging and that needs to be appreciated.

Ayo Akinwalere (23:21)

All right. When it comes to youth development, Stu, Benfica is interesting and I know you've been reporting On. On what they do, how do they work with players coming up? Because you think about Bernardo Silva, Ruben Diaz, Joao Felix, all come through that academy.

Jacob Tanswell (23:35)

Yeah, they've got an amazing track record there of producing players, but there's also an inherent need to produce players there. Sometimes you feel that top clubs have academies almost for the sake of having academies. Is there really joined up thinking between the first team and the academy? Is it at times more of a business model than actually a way of bringing players through to the first team at Benfica? You know, the best way I can put this is when I was speaking to Pedro Marquez, the technical director at Benfica at Liverpool, and he started talking about the young players who've come through. He looked down at his arms and he said, look, I've got goosebumps. He said, that's how much it means to us here. And there was another game going on when I was there that was being played away from home, but they had it on the television screens all around the academy. But a goal was scored in that game and everyone was cheering in the corridors. You know, it means that much to the people there. So, yeah, it's fascinating to spend that time there. And at that point, point, Joan Neves was just trying to break through and we look and see what he's gone on to do. Now, I think if there's any frustration for the academy staff, although they completely understand this, it's that they would just love to keep hold of those players a tiny bit longer. Because I said, it's great. You've got four players in the first team from the academy. And they said to me, it's not enough. And I kind of smiled and they went, I'm serious, it's not enough. And I said, well, what do you want? And they said, six or seven. And to win the Champions League with those players, players. So that's how high the bar is set for them. But it's also a really competitive environment in there. I mean, they had 500 players in their academy system. You know, that's an incredible lot. And obviously the vast majority of those, as is the case everywhere else, are not going to end up as professional footballers, but a brilliant environment. Really fascinating to watch them at work, but that was the big take home. I. I came away with that. This means so much to that academy, to get players through to the first team. And I think if you're working as an academy, and I've spoken to plenty of people over the years are in this situation, it can be incredibly frustrating if you don't have that joined up, thinking in that connection and that feeling that actually what we're working towards here is to get a player in the first team and that's also what the first team want.

Ayo Akinwalere (25:41)

I'm just thinking how you prepare players, Jacob, for what might be to come. Those expectations, you know, you've met the academy. Oh, maybe one day I might make the first team. I mean, how do you keep these players grounded genuinely? Is it down to the coaching? Is it down to the club? Is it down to parenting? Is it down to the staff? Laugh. I mean, how does it all work?

Stu James (26:01)

I think it's important for clubs to realize who are the coaches, who are the influences in their life. So how do they want to be spoken to? Are they a player that needs to be grounded, that needs regular conversations? Are they a guy that needs to be pushed a little bit in terms of let's push up an age group or let's be challenged, let's be a bit harder on him because he can take it and we can really drive progression that way. I think conversations with clarity, with parents, making sure that of course when they're this level and this elite level, the feet are on the ground, they're not distracted by the temptations almost of agents, money, first team opportunities elsewhere. There's conversations, regular check ins and making sure they're okay. I know there's a, you know, I've spoken to a few academy coaches at clubs who have seen their player go and make first team appearances and sometimes depending on their personality type, again they will say, right, the next couple of sessions are back with us, we're going to be really, really quite on them to show that they still have to perform here. They're not, not resting on their laurels. And on the flip side, there's other times where you be a little bit softer and then you think, okay, they've had that chance in the first team, they're now here, they might be bit disappointed they're back here again. Let's just be softer and let's have, you know, a nicer conversation. So it's important that those guys who have been working in the academy for five to 10 years, who have seen these kids from, you know, young as four in Dalma's case to their teenage years are still there. So when that time comes and they've jumped to the first team, they're still there as a point of reference and a point of contact.

Ayo Akinwalere (27:25)

Yeah, I mean, just thinking about this in terms of duty, care, Stu and please, Jacob, jump in if you can, but you know, I was reading a piece on the BBC by a guy called Chris Bevan, incredible piece about how hard it is for youth players to make it in to a Premier League squad, for instance. And I think it's like a percentage of 0.012%. Like out of 1.5 million players, 180 of them will end up making it potentially to play in the Premier League. I mean, how do you get your young people ready for that? I know you coach youth players, Stu. How do you manage that with them? Because obviously for the industry, it's great to have so many players who to want to be Premier League players, but not many of them are going to make it.

Jacob Tanswell (28:09)

No. I remember someone saying to me many years ago when I was writing a piece before World Cup, I don't know, at least 10 years ago, but they said to me, if we were a university of football, we would be shut down because the success rates are so low. But again, it's interesting, you know, when you speak to academy coaches and they'll say, like they always do the talk at the start of the year with all the new influx of parents and say, look, these are the statistics, these are the numbers that make it. And everyone goes. Parents are all nodding their head. But you know what I. They're all thinking, that won't be my son. My son will be the one that comes in a way, right? You have to have that belief. You have to think you're going to be the one, or there's no point in going into it. But I think generally, like, over time, then there are the telltale signs, you know. You know, most people will have a good realization as to whether they're going to make it or not. There are regular meetings that I'm sure Jacob would have been part of with his. With his family at that time. So they're trying to manage expectations. So if you get to, you know, the end of the year and they're going to say, we're going to let you go, it shouldn't come as a shock. You know, you should have a good grasp on the guys in your age group who are excelling, who are playing year up. If they're an under 16, they're going into the youth team and they're being stretched in that way. But all these cases are different. You know, it was interesting hearing about Louis Scully recently in Nuanieri. And, you know, Arsenal felt that Nyeri was emotionally, in the early years, better able to handle playing a few years up than Lewis Scully was. You know, so obviously that changes over time and Louis Scully did end up playing up a few age groups. But talking, you know, going back to Jacob's point, what he said, those, the coaches will have a good grasp of that. They're with the boys on a regular basis. They're connected to the families. So it isn't just talent, it's have they got the, you know, the mentality to cope with all of that? But yeah, to come back to a point at the start, I think you can't go into it if you're going to join the academy, if you're hell bent on being a professional footballer, you have got to try and close out those odds. And most people will say, won't they, when they're asked, what was your plan B? Well, it was plan A. I didn't really think of anything else and I know that's not what some people want to hear. They'll think you should be thinking of a second career, but what if it doesn't work, work out? Most people have only got one chance of it working out. So you've got to be all in.

Ayo Akinwalere (30:12)

Was your plan B being a journalist, Jacob?

Stu James (30:14)

Well, this is the thing. I was a bit of a realist. I kind of knew in the last year and I could just see the signs. I didn't have that inner belief like Stu mentioned. I didn't think I was going to be the football. I could see there are other players better than me. I could see their coaches are talking to them differently.

Ayo Akinwalere (30:27)

That's fair.

Stu James (30:28)

And. But looking back on it, that slight bit of doubt actually caused me to completely collapse in the end, really, Because I was thinking, okay, right, I'm probably not going to get a scholarship. This means that I need to start, start looking at college options. Or I started to look at a different role. I was, I was reading newspapers on the way to away games. I was thinking, okay, could I potentially be a journalist at this point? But at that point, that completely meant my football fell away in the end. So if you want to make it, you have to have that desire. And you think clubs will have talkers come into the academy and they'll say to them, this is a potential career. No one really listens. I was looking, I was the only one listening. I was looking around. Everyone else was on their phone looking at the wall. They were thinking, no, this won't be me. This is going to be me. I'm going to be in the phone, first team one day. So when that time does come and they do get given the talk, it's a shock. It was a shock for me, even though I I kind of knew in the back of my mind when that they were actually saying those words. It was a shock. So what's it like for someone that thinks and they're adamant that they're going to make it and they are told they're not? That is a big thing. And everyone knows the statistics. You know that beforehand. Like Stu says, players as young as 11, 12 know the 0.01 or whatever it is. They know that statistic, but yet they always think it won't be me. I'm going to be the guy that makes it. So when they get told, it's brutal, really. And this aftershock really can last for a few years.

Ayo Akinwalere (31:42)

Fair? Fair. Well, let's move on because Nicks will ask what is the best route to first team football?

Jacob Tanswell (31:50)

You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Accumulere.

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Jacob Tanswell (32:39)

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Jacob Tanswell (34:13)

This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akmoler.

Ayo Akinwalere (34:20)

Here comes Rio Inglemore.

Jacob Tanswell (34:22)

Can Liverpool sign off in style?

Stu James (34:26)

He is so, so talented is this young man and he's got himself another goal and he's lit up the night in Yokohama.

Jacob Tanswell (34:36)

Oh, they've got themselves a good one here, Liverpool.

Ayo Akinwalere (34:39)

Well, Liverpool's Rio Ngo has already scored twice in pre season for Honor Slot's side. After his latest goal in Yokohama last week, Slot had this to say about his performance. Performance.

Jacob Tanswell (34:49)

Rio again showed the quality he has.

eBay Advertiser (34:53)

And he and that's nice for us.

Jacob Tanswell (34:56)

Because we have a lot of very, very good players. But to get some very good players through the academy is always helpful, always gives energy to a team as well. It's always nice to see young players from 16, 17 or 18 years old already impacting a game. But there was also also a moment in the game where he should have squared it to Maka or Curtis. So also learning points for him.

eBay Advertiser (35:21)

But yeah, if you're 16 and you.

Jacob Tanswell (35:24)

Can impact the game like he did, that's definitely worth a compliment.

Ayo Akinwalere (35:28)

Ar Slot there giving praise to Ngamoa but also, I mean say criticism but I think quite a balanced view Jacob and I think that's fair because you know, you still got a player who's still developing really. But how important is that timing and when you insert them into the team because he's a wide player. Luis Diaz has just gone to Bayern Munich. It's a nice opportunity to to see what you can do for this first team.

Stu James (35:49)

Yeah, that was really interesting for Slot and probably indicative of what most managers try to do. They try to be balanced, they try to act with common sense but at the same time these are young lads that are still maturing physically but crucially mentally as well. So they don't want to be beaten down. They don't. The way and the tone of language you use probably for a 16, 17 year old is far different to what you used for a Virgil Van Dyke for instance. So it's about being balanced but recognizing as well, that these are special talents and maybe in that case, as, as a winger, you manage them managing, kind of integrate them a little bit more, give them cameos, maybe at the start of the season, more so than if you were a young centre back, for example, or a centre midfielder who's playing in a position which typically is associated with more leadership. So what Slot said there is really interesting in terms of the balance he strikes and that what he said to the press is probably what he's echoing in private as well.

Jacob Tanswell (36:39)

I think that's a really interesting point here, that there's a huge responsibility on the shoulders of the coaches here in terms of how they handle these players. I mean, right down to simple things that obviously weren't there years ago and are rightly there now. But these players are getting changed in a different dressing room right on their own. So, you know, that kind of highlights how extraordinary this situation is really. And yet then they will go in for a team talk with the other players. And yeah, Jacob's right, the manager will tailor his language and the tone of what he says. You'd hope differently to a 16 year old to what he'd say to say, Andy Robertson in his early 30s if he'd made a mistake. But actually that young player is still listening to the manager Talking to the 32, 32, 33 year old in a way that would probably be quite strange for most 16 year olds to be in a workplace hearing someone maybe get a right rollicking kind of thing. So you're growing up really, really fast in that environment. I remember thinking that, you know, when I'd left school at 16 and suddenly I was playing in a reserve team dressing room where there were players who were like really frustrated, you know, who didn't think they should be there, essentially playing with someone like me in the reserves and, you know, they're not going to treat you with gloves. Their future's on the line, they've got a mortgage, you know, they've got kids at home, they want to be in the first team. And all of that is a really strange mix that the manager has to handle actually, in a very, very careful way. And I guess the other thing with this is I think often, I think like Rashford at United, I'm not saying he wouldn't have come through, but if you remember at that time there was like a striker crisis, there's like a sliding doors moment with some of these players and then they have to then take that opportunity. So someone might say, oh, you're a bit lucky to get that chance. But then Rashford wasn't lucky to score the goals he did when he came into the team. So all of that is really interesting. Managers are under pressure to get results. To put a young player in is a risk. Often it will be like Jacob said earlier in a game against we're going to have Wick and Wanderers fans complaining after this in, in the Caribou cup or something. But to do it at first team level in a Premier League game, you know, that's something else. I think so, yeah. They've got a duty of care and a duty of responsibility as well.

Ayo Akinwalere (38:42)

You know what's interesting, we, we keep talking about the, the current transfer window, but I'm also thinking about transfer for youth players in terms of, you know, the commodity they can be. You look at Ngomoa who's gone from Chelsea to Liverpool. You look at transfers from Arsenal to Manchester United, for instance, a lot of these young players are sometimes looking at their, the team they've grown up in and gone. Actually I can't see myself making it to first team here, so I'm going to jump ship. So, you know, in terms of scouting, Stu and also Jakob jump in here. That is also as important as you're looking for first team players from abroad or wherever.

Jacob Tanswell (39:18)

Jacob mentioned earlier than he about the ramifications of Brexit potentially, which has probably led to more domestic transfers. Now it's a really good point and I think, you know, you get to this really critical age where we've seen you mentioned there that the players who've gone from Arsenal to United in recent times and obviously we're just talking about Rio now going from Chelsea to Liverpool. There are a lot of transfers around. It's a really critical time. You know, Arsenal, Arsenal won't need any telling. There'll be anyone and everyone would love to take down one at this opportunity. You know, they're going to come up, there's going to come a point obviously when they can put a contract in front of him and that contract's going to be really, really important. You know, everything we're led to believe money won't be the be all and end all. He's an Arsenal fan. He's been at Arsenal for years. I think a really important factor is can you show them a pathway? And at Arsenal now they don't need to just talk about that pathway. They and say, hey look, look at the guys who are playing in the first team at the minute. Look what's happened with Lewis Scali. Look what's happened with Ranieri. So I think that's a really powerful thing. I remember years ago speaking to someone at Southampton about that. I feel, Jacob, you'll know better than me, kind of fallen away a little bit, probably quite away with where they were at one time with regularly producing top players through their academy. And I always felt the most powerful thing they could do was say, look at the wall, look at that list of players. And that's what Benfica have. They have a wall in the corridor of all the players who've come through. So you're not just giving someone the spiel, you're actually, actually saying, no, no, there's the evidence. If you come here, there's a chance to break through at first team level. The other thing I'll say on this, finally, I think money plays a part in all of this too, and we'd be naive to think it doesn't. Let's not forget some of these. Let's not forget some of these players, like are talking up a pathway and I'm not seeing any better pathway at the club they're going to, the one they leave in. So. And I guess, you know, we could sit in judgment on that. Everyone's circumstances are different if someone has been offered life changing money at a young age. Yeah, we could all say, you shouldn't be chasing the money. There are not many people who wouldn't probably take that. So there we go.

Stu James (41:05)

That's absolutely right in terms of the money side of things as well. Agencies, it's becoming more competitive, there's more of them. The bigger companies are hoovering up a lot of talent. And you see now a lot of agents are actually switching from working with senior players and actually just focusing specifically between 16 to 20 year olds because they think, actually that's a USP that I can get into. That's maybe what I can really specialize in. And then you have these two choices. Do you, like Stu says, focus on pathway for your client, do you back them? You think they're so good that the money's just going to come anyway. We can just make sure they just stay in this team and then later down the line they'll get their rewards. Or do you think probably in all likelihood they're not going to make it? So let's just get this, this might be his only big contract, so let's just push this. Let's not really focus on pathways. It might not be one, but nice three year contract, 10, 15 grand a week, that might set them up for a good long one while, you know, you see these players, they're not just plucked out of school and they're living in their family home. A lot of these kids that even when they're 18, 19, and they're playing three or four appearances a season, they're driving big cars, they've got fancy watches, they're going on big nice holidays because of the money that there is at youth level and the clubs that are willing to give them the money. And Stu touched on Southampton. One of the reasons why they've lost a lot of talent recently to other clubs is because they're trying to actually restrict their wage structure. They felt we went out of hand, got out of hand. So what they're doing now is they've got a wage cap, waist limit, and as a result, a lot of their. A lot of agents with young players are now taking their clients elsewhere.

Ayo Akinwalere (42:34)

Before we go, there's a piece live on the Athletic right now, actually, with Charlie Patino, the former Arsenal youngster, speaking with Thomas Hill, Lopez, Manchero. Patino has his say when asked about the dangers in hyping up young talent with Max Dalman clearly in the spotlight.

Jacob Tanswell (42:48)

Fifteen to be. To be breaking in is obviously a massive thing. It's, you know, it's very rare for people that age to be doing that. You know, I say from. From my experiences just to, you know, not to not put too much pressure on a kid that age, just let them, you know, learn from. From training, you know, put them in when needed and kind of just give. Give them time to. To adapt to, you know, get that experience just to see what it was like. And that's what I was like when I first started training with the first team at, you know, 17, 16, 18, you know, that each was, you know, learned from the likes of Jacques or Davin Louise, you know, big egos in the. In the group, you know, big characters. That's how I kind of learned from. From them. And yeah, it was good.

Ayo Akinwalere (43:37)

Yeah. I mean, Patino, I remember, highly rated. We thought he would be the next Max Dalman as Arsenal fan, Stu. And please jump in, Jacob as well. But I wonder if there is something here because he's now playing at Deportivo La Caruna, obviously, historically a great team in Spain, actually, but they're now in the second division in Spain. It just kind of shows that not every wonderkid will end up at a major club or make it to the first team of the club they've come up in. But then I think about it, a lot of these players don't have a plan B really just playing football, surely, Stu, for a club professionally, is the icing on the cake.

Jacob Tanswell (44:10)

Yeah, it is. And as I said earlier, I think you have to be completely focused on that. You know, there are very few who would be like, well, if this doesn't work out, then I'm going to turn to X. In fact, lots of players, you know, really struggle with that afterwards. Pitino interests me. I was well aware, aware of the hype. We'd seen the videos of him playing at age group level at Arsenal. I watched him for a full season on loan when he was playing at Swansea and I was really excited by his signing and it just didn't work out. And no doubt he's got talent now. I remember when I did the piece on Max Dalman, some of the comments were saying, yeah, we heard this kind of stuff about Patino. If I can make one clear difference between the two, and I mean this really, really respectfully from watching them both. Dalman's athleticism is on a completely different level to Pitino in terms of his explosiveness, his pace, his ability to drive away from players. I just don't see that in Pitino. And I think in the modern game, as we're talking about it now, you know, a lot of the players will have really, really strong physical attributes. People like Dalman, he's got core attributes there that really, really lend itself to being given that opportunity earlier and handling in it. So, yeah, I hope Patino goes on to do well. I watched with interest last season because he didn't play much, did he? I think he only made. I was reading Thomas's piece, he only made some like eight appearances last season. It was clearly a difficult season for him, but there's nothing to say that he won't bounce back from that over time. But, yeah, these names, especially when we follow teams, we always hear about them, don't we, in the academy? Oh, there's one coming down the track, you know, he's got. It gives you such excitement and hope and then when it doesn't materialize, you can feel a little bit flat at times. But that, that is just the nature of, of talent, young talent.

Stu James (45:49)

We all want immediate answers, don't we, in terms of. We see a wonder kid and we, we Christ them as the next best thing and we think right there, we map out their stages for them. We want to think right, first team debut, they're going to start playing regularly for the first team, they're going to be captain one day. It's not always going to be like that again, even for amazing talents like Charlie Patina, at that point, progress is not always going to be linear. It's always going to be straight way and it's not always going to work out how you anticipate. And I think people think, okay, he didn't make up Arsenal. Okay, he's now somewhere else outside of M. He's, he's never going to reach the, the heights or the potential we thought he would. But everyone takes different routes. You're not always going to be at the perfect time, D breaking through. Although, as Stu, right, says, he's far superior in terms of athleticism, that in. He's in a far more stable structure than Charlie Patina was at that point. You know, he's talking about Dava Louise, you know, he. They were completely different times in Arteta's tenure, really. So it was all about finding your feet and what works. And that's why the next move after you leave and you step outside the bubble like Patina, it needs to be the best one, really. That's the most important one to get you back on the journey again.

Jacob Tanswell (46:53)

I don't know what you, how you feel about this, Jacob, but I was subbed for the first team once, didn't get on. I never played a game in professional football. You know, my career was semi pro. I'd have done anything to play one game. And when people sometimes say, these guys don't make it yet, they've still played professional football at a good level. I have so much respect for those players. So maybe Patino hasn't gone on to be what we thought he would be. But in my eyes, he still had a fantastic career already. There are so many hurdles you go through as a young player with a professional football club to try and get up through, to try and get to, you know, 15 16s, to then get a scholarship, to get your first pro contract, to then get into the first team squad. Anyone who's been through all that are just full of admiration for them. So that kind of thing, they didn't make it. It doesn't sort of sit that well with me. At times I'm like, no, they did make it. They might not have got to the level that some people thought they'd get to, but they made it. And they were in a tiny group of players who did that. So, yeah, I think we sort of too easy, sort of dismiss that and write them off. When, when you've been in that system, the now youthful Jacob, you. You just respect people who've got, who've gone through all those hurdles and got there even if they didn't play 500 games in the Premier League.

Stu James (48:04)

I think the toughest thing for me was just every year getting a new contract at the end of it. That's one of the, I still think one of my biggest achievements, although I didn't, my career didn't amount to much in the end. Going from under 8 to under 16s every year, you're getting judged. And so I've passed eight different tests almost in that time. It's a big step. So the fact that people say that, like Stu says, they didn't quite make it, they still got to the first team, it still passed a huge amount of tests under severe pressure, physically, psychologically, and they done it. And like Stu says, they should only be of a part applauded for that.

Ayo Akinwalere (48:35)

And I think you're spot on. And I also think about, you know, some of big, big players like someone like Victor Gjokaris for instance, starting off in Sweden really young, having to find his way through Brighton, Sao Pauli, Swansea, going lower leagues and then finding his way at Sporting and then finally becoming the striker he probably in his head thought he would be when he started out in the game. Now playing for Arsenal, it just shows that not everyone's journey is actually Nilia. But gents, honestly, this is a wonderful conversation and I wish we could carry on, but we gotta stop. But I appreciate your time. Jacob, Stu, thanks for joining us and also thank you guys for listening as well. We're back soon.

Jacob Tanswell (49:09)

You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroot and Jay Beal. The executive producer was Aidy Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC podcast is an athletic media company production.

Stu James (49:29)

The Athletic fc.

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Derek Clason (49:59)

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Jacob Tanswell (50:18)

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Jacob Tanswell (51:00)

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Stu James (51:29)

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