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- [00:00]
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- [01:03]
Sponsor Representative
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- [02:05]
Arsenal Writer
The Athletic FC
- [02:10]
Emma Payton
hello and welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Emma Payton. England. Overcome the Azteca in an instant classic to set up a quarter final clash with Erling Haaland, Norway and ahead of the USA taking on Belgium. Well, what role did Donald Trump play in the decision to suspend following Baligan's ban? Well, here with me in the studio, I feel like we're all beaming this morning. We've got Keris Jones and Art d'. Roche. Is this team no sleep team.
- [02:38]
Keris Jones
Very little sleep here in the studio. Two and a half hours sleep.
- [02:42]
Arsenal Writer
Yeah. I'm in a similar boat. Two and a half hours.
- [02:46]
Emma Payton
I feel you both.
- [02:47]
Keris Jones
What a night. Unbelievable. Yeah, it was a really. I was saying before we started recording, I went to the pub for the game, and when it was about quarter past one and kickoff had been pushed back an hour, I was sat there going, this is one of the worst decisions ever made in my life. And now I have no regrets. That was so special.
- [03:05]
Emma Payton
No, none of us have any regrets about staying up. You're rocking your England shirt. We won't talk about who's on the back. Or do you want to?
- [03:10]
Arsenal Writer
I don't mind.
- [03:11]
Emma Payton
You don't mind?
- [03:12]
Arsenal Writer
I mean, I know a lot of people know me as an Arsenal writer, but I said, I think the other day, I don't really care about tribalism when it comes to international football. I mentioned Joe Cole, basically. Okay, so this is Cole Palmer on the back. Just because I love him as a player. This is from Euro 2024. So, I mean, goal scorer in the final. So I don't really think too many people can argue.
- [03:36]
Emma Payton
I'm sure people will. Don't worry about that.
- [03:38]
Arsenal Writer
They will.
- [03:39]
Emma Payton
How did you watch the game then?
- [03:40]
Arsenal Writer
I watched at home. Usually on Sundays, me and my boys, we play PlayStation in the evening, but we moved our sesh to the very late evening and then they went to bed after the delay. So I went on football manager powering through.
- [03:59]
Emma Payton
The delay's not gonna stop me. Okay, well, that's how we deal with the early start here in the uk. But there to see it live in Mexico City was our England correspondent, Jack Pitt Brook.
- [04:09]
Jack Pitt Brook
That is the Azteca Stadium behind me. England have just won here. 3, 2. Or at least they did a few hours ago. They're in the quarterfinals of the World cup. And I think that was the best game I've ever been to. I don't think I can remember anything comparable to it. Certainly not in terms of atmosphere. It was even better than I expected. It was significantly louder than I expected. I thought that the game was kind of endlessly fascinating, exhausting. It had so many different phases. But what it really came down to was, can England defend with 10 men for the entirety of the second half against a Mexican team who had the whole crowd behind them? And the answer is that they could. Mexico only scored once in the second half. That was from the penalty spot. And at the end, England had a Back five with Spencer, left back, concert right back, Byrne Gahey and Stones in the middle. And they were all absolutely heroic. People thought that Dan Byrne was just brought to the World cup for the banter. He was incredible today. He put his head in the way of a Raul Jimenez overhead kick and I think at one point he headed the ball basically 60 yards at the other end of the pitch. What really matters about this is it's not even just England progress. It's that they showed a togetherness, a flexibility, ability to work well as a team and defend well as a team. They did the dirty side of the game that a lot of people said that they weren't very good at. And they did that so well today that I think that that bodes really well for them. Going into Norway in Miami in their quarterfinal, there's still a lot of issues in Singham team. I thought the way that they dropped the ball after going 2 nil up was really poor. That should have been game over. But in fact they massively let Mexico into it. Big issues, I think with their discipline, big issues. Issues at times with their defending or with their structure, but at the moment that doesn't matter because they're in the quarterfinals of the World Cup. They're going to Miami next weekend.
- [05:59]
Emma Payton
Yeah, doesn't matter. Jack, we're being positive for now. Okay. There is, by the way, loads of reaction over on the Athletic, if you haven't had a look already. Jack's got his match piece there. 10 man England survive siege of the Azteca to reach quarterfinals in a World cup classic. So that's available. And there's plenty more as well, like Michael Cox's piece on how England coach Thomas Tuchel adjusted to the problem of altitude and going down to 10 men. As well as the latest on Jordan Henderson as well after he was injured in those post match celebrations. So let's get stuck into it then. Keris Jack describing it as the best game that he's ever been to. Just how impressive is that win?
- [06:35]
Keris Jones
I think the manner of it was what was incredibly impressive after sort of all of the, you know, we talked so much about the altitude, it didn't seem to be that big of an issue. The intensity that that England's players brought I thought was exceptional. The manner that they sort of stuck the boot in or Bellingham did with that kind of quick fire double was really, really important. The way that they regained possession back in the middle of the pitch and went straight for a second goal, obviously how they switched off afterwards wasn't ideal, but to focus on the positives. And then after the red card in the second half, I was incredibly impressed by how they adapted and how they coped. How Dan Byrne, for instance, was able to come into the game. Morgan Rodgers, I thought, did well when came on as well. I thought that, you know, it shows something about how much the players have bought in, both to each other and into what Tuchel's asking them to do. In terms of the last ditch defending, the complete lack of an outlet up top for the last, like, portion of the game where it was just parking the bus, backs to the wall, whatever phrase you want to use. It takes a lot of faith in yourselves and each other and your coach to commit to that style of play and to not kind of take attacking risks, because even one defensive mistake when you're playing like that could have led to extra time. And I think England probably would have run out of gas in extra time with. With 10 against 11. It was an incredible performance. I was really, you know, it was imperfect, but the most impressive I can
- [08:07]
Emma Payton
remember, even when those 11 minutes went up of stoppage time, honestly, it felt like those 11 minutes went on forever.
- [08:13]
Matt Slater
Yeah, it did.
- [08:14]
Sponsor Representative
It did.
- [08:14]
Arsenal Writer
It was. That was torturous because I know Kerris said they played really well in terms of defending and defending waves of attacks, but for me, I was just so panicky because I don't like when teams invite pressure and I know they didn't really have any other choice but to do that, but I just didn't know if they would be able to hang on. And as Jack mentioned, Dan Byrne was really impressive in terms of just being willing to put his head anywhere. And I think you really need guys like that who, maybe when the squad comes out, you're a bit surprised, but, you know, they show their worth in the big moments. So, yeah, thankfully we. We all got through those 11 minutes because it felt like much more.
- [08:57]
Dan Sheldon
It did.
- [08:58]
Emma Payton
Some of the real sort of standout stats. I mean, Mexico conceded three goals in a match at the Azteca for the first time since August 1999, and they conceded more goals in that match, three, than in all their previous 10 World cup matches at the Azteca combined. So that just shows the job that England managed to do overnight. Let's talk a bit about Jude Bellingham, then, Keris, who is very much the main man in Mexico. Jude at altitude is what Guy Mowbray was saying on the BBC. I mean, 98 seconds between those two goals, but it almost felt like he thrived in that environment and thrived in the chaos at that stadium.
- [09:34]
Keris Jones
Yeah, it was. I was so impressed with his performance, both in terms of, you know, those two goals are not kind of the. The most impressive finishes of his career by any stretch, but kind of the intelligence that he showed in the build up to them was amazing. And I thought his work rate throughout was just absolutely incredible. I remember about probably 10, 15 minutes into the game, the camera came onto him and he was dripping with sweat. I was like, oh, okay, this could be a really long 90 minutes. And it was. And he was just incredible. I think some of the times that he dropped back deeper to recover the ball. Amazing. There was one basically goal line clearance he took that I thought was a nailed on equaliser. I think at 2:1, he was absolutely everywhere. I think he was asked post match, do you know who the last guy to score two goals at the Azteca in a World cup game was? And it was Maradona and he was very respectful about it. He didn't choose to go the kind of. Well, one of those shouldn't have counted, which he could have done, definitely. But amazing company for him to be in and I think he is. I think the notion of kind of doubt over his starting position feels so fanciful now with how important he's been.
- [10:48]
Emma Payton
Yeah, it does just feel crazy now, doesn't it? Jarell Quanzah's red card obviously made things very difficult, and it feels like that right back position is again causing Thomas Tuchel problems and it's going to do moving forward. But what does that performance from England kind of answer in terms of the questions that people had, you know, heading into the tournament and maybe heading into that match?
- [11:09]
Arsenal Writer
I think it's probably looking at more at the intangibles within the squad and what their belief is like. For me, what I really liked about the game from both in England and the Mexico perspective, was it wasn't really about tactics or anything. It was just two teams going at it. And I think that's what helped Bellingham thrive, because he's probably the one player in that team that you look at and say, if someone's going to go at it and come out on top, it's him. But in terms of defensively, I think you're looking at that team to, you know, show different sides to themselves in different games in different circumstances. And I think them showing that they can, you know, sit back and obviously other teams have been criticized for doing that throughout the tournament, but England can do that and maybe be a bit more compact and secure. They can do that. And break from that. I think that's another, you know, string to their bow going into the later stages of the tournament.
- [12:01]
Emma Payton
How much credit does Thomas Tuchel deserve here? Because you talk about. I mean, you mentioned Dan Byrne a minute ago, his head sort of seemingly getting on the end of every ball that was fired his way. John Stone's brought on as well and he made an impact. But does it feel like this England side, because Art, again, touched on the belief now, does it feel like they're a team that can find a way?
- [12:18]
Keris Jones
Yeah, it was good to know that we're never beyond the put the big lad on phase of England, that Thomas Tuchel is not above that. But I think he deserves massive credit for the way that he set the team up, the way that he. You know, there's been lots of talk about how good he is at managing teams through knockout football, how he shepherded the team through to avoid extra time. I think he deserves huge credit for a lot of it has to go to the players. But I think those two go hand in hand because of how. Well, like I was saying earlier, that he's clearly got them to trust his methods and trust his instructions and trust what he wants them to do on the pitch. I think it's really hard to defend in that sort of way if you haven't got everyone on the same page. No one can be sort of going off on their own little tangent or side mission. Everyone has to be kind of focused on their role and their responsibility and focusing fully. And everyone clearly was. So I think that's. It's credit to the players and it's credit to Thomas Tuchel. The two go together for me.
- [13:17]
Arsenal Writer
Can I just say, on the decision after the red card, so to bring Sakha off and keep Gordon on, I thought that was also really interesting. I know I said earlier, I'm not a big fan of teams just, you know, retreating and giving the opposition, you know, the impetus in a game. But it felt like Gordon was going to be the one to stretch because he played so much better than Saka in the game. But with Saka, you've seen, obviously, a lot of talk throughout the tournament, and it feels like that almost every tournament with him. I mean, before it was, do you start Saka or Foden? But once again, he's delivered with the assist for the first goal for Jude Bellingham, which he did as well, I think, against Serbia in the Euros. Very similar cross if people want to look back at them, because I don't know if anyone noticed that, but Yeah, I thought his game management and understanding, okay, who's going to fit the rest of this game better was really exceptional as well.
- [14:14]
Emma Payton
How much belief do we think this is going to give England moving forward in this tournament now?
- [14:18]
Keris Jones
I think the only hurdle that is left for them to overcome is the sort of technical quality of opponents. If, you know, it's a big if. If they get further down the line and they come up against a France, a Spain and Argentina, I think that is the last sort of challenge. I don't think in terms of intensity, effort going down to 10 men, atmosphere, hostility, I don't think there's anything that can be thrown at them that hasn't been in this game last night or this morning. So it's, it's just a case of how do they then keep that focus and perhaps be a little bit more clinical and a little bit more disciplined when they really need to. But they should have every belief that they can win in any circumstance, really well.
- [15:03]
Emma Payton
It is all eyes on Miami next for England and a quarter final clash with Erling Haaland, Norway.
- [15:13]
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- [18:18]
Emma Payton
Next to our discussion of the day sponsored by Threads. Now last night we asked our Threads followers what is the most iconic World cup celebration of all time? We're going to take a look at those very shortly, but first I want to pose that question here in the studio. So Kerys, first to you. What what is the most iconic World cup celebration of all time?
- [18:39]
Keris Jones
I was a toss up between two, one of which John Sperling highlighted on Threads. Marco Tardelli in the 1982 final. There's nothing kind of choreographed about it, which I think is what I really love.
- [18:50]
Emma Payton
He was almost in shock.
- [18:51]
Keris Jones
Yeah, he was in complete shock. Just sort of running across the pitch and screaming and the pure emotion on his face. I think that's an iconic one. And then on the other side of the coin, Roger Miller's like corner flag dancing, particularly at Italia 90 and the backstory behind it with the president calling him to come out of retirement for Cameroon for the tournament. The fact that it was one of the original kind of trademark celebrations or choreographed celebrations, I think that one kind of goes down as the most iconic as well.
- [19:20]
Arsenal Writer
Yeah, Miller was one of my options. The second one was Shabalala and co at South Africa against Mexico. I remember watching that at school, actually. And thankfully, obviously, it's not an issue that, you know, current school teachers have because of the time zones, but they were, you know, they were good enough to let us watch the game during school hours. And then nowadays it's actually. I'm going to mention video games again, but they've actually, they've introduced the celebration onto a pro club. So when there's four of us on, we're all able to do the dance together. So it's actually quite.
- [19:57]
Emma Payton
That is great. Oh, my gosh. Okay. I love that. I also love that a lot of people say memories and moments are coming from when they're in school watching as well, which is brilliant.
- [20:06]
Keris Jones
No, I have. My mum works in schools, I was saying before we started recording, and in both the schools that she works in today, the schools are putting on screenings of last night's game for the kids, which I thought was, you know, that'll be a childhood memory. That'll be their childhood England memory.
- [20:22]
Emma Payton
But we were saying, let's hope no one ruins it.
- [20:24]
Keris Jones
Yeah, no, there will be someone. But I hope not.
- [20:27]
Emma Payton
I hope not, I hope not. Cerys mentioned that John Sperling got in touch on thread saying Marco Tardelli in that 1982 final, which was absolutely iconic. It just felt like he, like we said, was in shock, crying, shaking his head, didn't really know what had happened, but ran the full length of the pitch. But also we've got Michael Pomarna as well, who said Babetto in 1994, which is that iconic baby celebration. They, of course, you know, won the tournament, beating Italy in the final. So thank you for some. Some really great responses for your chance to be featured in the next discussion of the day feature, head over to Threads, follow the Athletic FC and do please join the conversation. Right, before we move on from Sunday's action, we know, of course, that England will face Norway in Miami on Saturday. What a prospect that is. That is after they saw off Brazil 2 1, thanks to two goals from who else but Erling Haaland? Let's get over to New York now and hear from the athletics. Matt Slater.
- [21:25]
Matt Slater
Well, good evening do you need me to tell you where I am? Yeah, I'm in Times Square. If I can make it here, I can make it anywhere. But earlier today I was at the MetLife Stadium to see Norway. This lot, yeah, maintain their unbeaten record against Brazil in a completely regulation two one win. No, I'm joking. It was anything but. It was incredibly exciting. I won't give you the full match and act sort of chronology, but they're two match winners. One was Oy and Niland in goal, saved a penalty and among other saves, and then the other one was a chap you probably have heard of, Erlan Haaland. Yeah, he scored two great goals. One was a header, absolutely smashed Gabriel for it. The other one was a delightful nutmeg finish from the edge of the area. Brazil decayed consolation through Neymar. Too little, too late. Bit of a damn script for them. They go home. Norway, on the other hand, they advance to a quarter final against England in Atlanta next Saturday. I'm sure you're going to talk a lot more about that, so I will leave that to others. I will just leave you from Times Square, where apparently Garenker has spent an awful lot of money on a studio somewhere around here. You've got me for nothing.
- [22:54]
Emma Payton
Well, thank you. To be fair, he was loving life in Times Square. Why, why wouldn't you be as well? Let's talk about Erling Haaland then, who is just unstoppable, inevitable. We say it all the time now. Level with Kylian Mbappe and Lionel Messi on seven goals for the tournament. Certainly won the battle with Gabrielle, didn't he?
- [23:10]
Matt Slater
Yeah, yeah.
- [23:10]
Arsenal Writer
It's unfortunate as someone who covers Arsenal to see that happening, but, I mean, it felt like a very typical matchup between them. They're. They're obviously very, you know, handsy outside the box, but that goal was very similar to the goal he scored at the Etihad against Arsenal. And he's just got the movement to get by him. A similar goal he scored against Saliba actually last year as well. So he knows what he's doing in those areas. But I mean, going, going forward as well. I mean, I was actually quite happy that he scored the second goal the way he did, because it shows people that he's not just this physical brute, that he is actually a technical player that can do things at a high level in that regard as well. So it was nice to see two different sides to his play.
- [23:56]
Emma Payton
He's the difference maker, isn't he? We know this by now.
- [23:59]
Keris Jones
Yeah, I think he is the scariest player in world football. His physical presence, but as Art said as well, his footballing intelligence and I think the range of. There is a bit of a misconception about him being just a poacher and he is an amazing poacher, but he is kind of rounding out as a striker as well and his numbers are just absolutely phenomenal. I think that that is the main question for England, obviously ahead of that quarter final, after they've, you know, had a bit of a kip and a reset, is how do they stop him? They've got John Stones, Marc Gay, who obviously know him extremely well and probably will be able to hopefully add a little bit from experience. What have they seen teams in the Premier League do against him? If anything, that can sort of help neutralise his threats a little bit. That now becomes the main question for him to answer. They're not a one man show. Norway. I thought there were others in that team who did really well, but Haaland is by far kind of the focal point, the difference maker, as you say, and that's what England have got to be prioritising.
- [24:55]
Emma Payton
I mean, Martin Odegaard, someone that you've watched a hell of a lot at Arsenal, certainly played his part, didn't he?
- [25:01]
Arsenal Writer
Yeah, I mean, looking throughout the tournament, he's done quite well. I know Arsenal fans who watch him, they want him to release the ball earlier. But I think when you're seeing what he does on a regular basis, a lot of what he is doing is keeping the ball so the game doesn't get too stretched. And I think Norway navigated certain moments of that game extremely well, where they could have made it a very fast end to end game, but they just kept in control. Even at nil. Nil. It felt like they were kind of the drivers of it. So I think looking into, you know, the quarterfinals, it'll be quite interesting to see also how Solbacken decides to start on the wings because I don't know, as a spectator, I'd rather see Oscar Bob play on the right wing than Sir Love, but I know he'll have, you know, specific timings of what he wants to see from certain players and why Oscar Bob might be better to bring off the bench, for instance. But again, he's a player that the, you know, Nico O'Reilly especially should be, you know, familiar with from his time at Manchester City.
- [26:05]
Emma Payton
Just before we move on, a word on Brazil as well. First time since 1990 they won't feature in the quarterfinals at a World Cup. Had that Bruno Guimaraes missed penalty early on. Oya Nyland. Matt mentioned it there. Made a number of key saves. He was fantastic. Another big moment I thought was that nil, nil. When Endrick was clean through on goal, a really poor touch and then he dinked it wide. What was your take on Carlo Ancelotti's side? It looks like, of course, the end for Neymar as well.
- [26:31]
Keris Jones
Yeah, I found just really interesting to watch this tournament. I think we've spoken about a bit before. They're not necessarily what you'd always expect from a Brazil side, but I have still found them to be enjoyable to watch in terms of like some of the high turnovers and stuff like that. When it's worked, it's been really entertaining. They did, I think, create enough to win that game despite not having the bulk of the ball, which again, kind of shows the benefit of that approach. But they just weren't quite clinical enough, which, with the attacking quality that, that they have, is a massive shame. The fact that Endrick didn't. Didn't take on that moment, as you said, I thought was. Was a really important one. I thought Guimaraj's penalty was poor. Neymar putting him on the penalty at the end. I, I'm not sure how I feel about that and I'm not really not sure how I feel about his celebrations after it. It felt pretty. Pretty tone deaf to me. I can't imagine being in that situation that his teammates would have been wanting him to do anything except go get the ball out the back of the net and put it back on the center circle. So if that's the way that his Brazil and his World cup career ends, then I think it's a shame. But I think that Brazil, you know, in terms of, as you just mentioned, how early they have gone out, it's a massive shame for them, but I do think there's heart that they can take from it and in what they can do under Carlo Ancelotti, it's more whether they can maintain belief that it's the right approach and it'll be interesting to see kind of where they go from here.
- [27:52]
Arsenal Writer
Yeah, I thought that was such a sad way for Neymar to go out because I don't think anyone watching understood what was going through his head. Like, why, why are you acting that way when, okay, maybe you've sent the keeper the wrong way, but who cares?
- [28:06]
Keris Jones
Yeah, exactly.
- [28:08]
Arsenal Writer
You're two one down and you're going
- [28:09]
Emma Payton
out the World Cup.
- [28:10]
Arsenal Writer
Exactly. Yeah. Just a really bizarre moment from him, which hopefully doesn't, you know, downplay what he has done in the Brazil shirt up to this point. But if I'm being totally honest, I mentioned it early on in the tournament on one of these episodes. But Brazil at World Cups? For me, as someone whose first World cup was 2006, they're just, you know, a team that produced some good moments, but they're never really contenders. And it's been the same this year.
- [28:38]
Emma Payton
Different era.
- [28:45]
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- [30:15]
Emma Payton
Right. Time now for our do you know daily trivia on day 26 of the world Cup. So question for today. Both looking extremely happy about this getting quizzed. There were just 26 games in the 1954 World Cup. Do you know which nation won their first title during this edition?
- [30:41]
Arsenal Writer
54.
- [30:43]
Keris Jones
Brazil will have won it before then.
- [30:46]
Emma Payton
They won the following tournament in 1954.
- [30:48]
Keris Jones
Okay, well, ignore me.
- [30:50]
Emma Payton
You were close. I mean
- [30:53]
Arsenal Writer
Hungary.
- [30:53]
Emma Payton
Nope.
- [30:56]
Arsenal Writer
54.
- [30:58]
Dan Sheldon
I don't know.
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Emma Payton
I guess kind of down that line of thinking in a way.
- [31:01]
Arsenal Writer
Czechoslovakia?
- [31:02]
Emma Payton
No. Sorry I've taken you the wrong way. It's maybe more obvious than you Think Germany. Yeah, West Germany.
- [31:12]
Keris Jones
Right. I was trying to be, I was trying to confuse you. Clever with that.
- [31:18]
Emma Payton
Yeah, clever doesn't always win.
- [31:22]
Arsenal Writer
I'm happy with that one, to be fair. This is your, our first one of these together. I get really competitive.
- [31:27]
Emma Payton
No, I sense that as soon as you kind of like if you could have lunged and like, you know, stretched you. Now, there was so much drama on the pitch on Sunday. But what about off it as well? Dan Sheldon and Adam Crafton exclusively revealed ahead of the USA's clash with Belgium that following Balogun's one game ban after being sent off against Bosnia had been suspended. A story which has over 4,000 comments over on the Athletic that was then followed up by the news that Donald Trump had called FIFA President Gianni Infantino regarding the ban that Balogun was set to face. So joining us now to get into all of this are both Adam and Dan. Guys, thank you for joining us so early as well. Let's deal with the Balogun situation first of all, then bring us up to speed with what's happened and just how is he allowed to play later on.
- [32:21]
Dan Sheldon
Hi, Emma. Yeah, thanks for having us on. Yeah. So Sunday morning we revealed on the Athletic that Balogun will be available for the US's game against Belgium later today. For all intents and purposes, he was ruled out of that game through suspension. He was sent off against Bosnia and FIFA. You know, a red card at a World cup is an automatic one game suspension and there are no avenues to appeal that. So, you know, the USMNT were going to be out with who's been their best player at the tournament. However, you know, as revealed on the Athletic on Sunday, the red card wasn't overturned but Baligan has now received a suspended one game ban. So similar to what happened with Ronaldo earlier in the year where FIFA, the disciplinary committee suspended two of his three match ban that he received after the red card against Ireland, they applied the same article 27 to the Baligan situation. Now what that means is he will be available to play for the U.S. team.
- [33:18]
Emma Payton
And Adam, I mean this is a huge boost for the usa. You guys have also written about the involvement of the US President Donald Trump. Explain how this has all unfolded because I think this is the part that's got everybody talking.
- [33:31]
Adam Crafton
Yeah. So I guess it all kind of began almost immediately after the game on Wednesday night where US Soccer started to look at if there was a way, any way that they could get this player on the field who has scored three goals so far. In the tournament. He's been, as Dan says, their best player in the competition. So they were looking for loopholes, different ways around the regulations. I guess they called in America's favorite team, which is lawyers, and America's president, which is President Trump, kind of called himself in to the situation. There was conversations that went on between Trump, Andrew Giuliani, the son of the former New York City mayor, Rudy Giuliani, who is kind of leading this White House World cup task force, and also the Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick. And they got together a group of lawyers to kind of look at what they could do also with some U.S. soccer donors, and kind of came up with some sort of submission which was sent onto U.S. soccer. What we don't really know is, like, how much of that was actually used and the extent to which that was actually used. U.S. soccer did submit work at the zoom of their own to FIFA, which has eventually led to this decision. But in and amongst all that was a phone call that went from Trump to the president of FIFA, Gianni Infantino, a pretty unprecedented step of kind of political intervention. Quite what was said on that call? You know, was he. What was he asking for? Was he asking to understand this decision? Was he asking for this decision to be overruled? Was he saying it was unfair? We don't know. You know, I guess only those two people at this stage really know what was said on that call. But what it does do, I think, is open up a whole conversation and suspicion. Right. It raises all sorts of questions, which when you factor in all of the different things that we've, you know, reported about so often over the past year and a half. The Trump Tower, FIFA office in New York City, the Peace Prize, Infantino being on stage in Miami saying that people should get behind Trump because, you know, Trump's doing well and trying his best. You know, there's been the, you know, they moved the World cup draw from. It was going to be in Vegas, then it was at the Trump was now the Trump Kennedy center in D.C. they even played his anthem, the YMCA, at the end of that draw. So it's going to lead to questions because there is this perception of coziness. And what that brings into question is, you know, what weighting did Trump's call play in FIFA's decision in this independent disciplinary committee? And those are the questions, I guess, that FIFA are going to get. But also, I mean, imagine if Baligan now scores the winner. I mean, the Belgian team are furious.
- [36:24]
Emma Payton
Yeah, absolutely. Just before you go, Dan, another question for you With President Trump seemingly so involved in this process, what have you made of his general involvement or maybe lack of during the tournament?
- [36:36]
Dan Sheldon
Well, this is his first, this is the first time we've seen, well, we've not, we've still not seen him, you know, we've seen his truth social post, but we've still not seen Trump at this World Cup. We've seen other members of his, of his administration. We've seen Marco Rubio a few times, see Cash Patel we saw in Miami recently. But Trump has been, he's been absent and it's been a notable absence in my view. You know, this is a guy who I thought given kind of his rhetoric going into the tournament would try and make this about him. I thought this would be Trump's World cup and then with the US Team doing, doing well and gathering real momentum, you know, I thought he may then latch himself onto that and do, I mean, start going to their games. But no, he still hasn't been to a game. We do know because Infantino said on Fox maybe last week that he's going to be at the final and will be part of the trophy presentation. So we know he's definitely going to that game. But yeah, no, he still hasn't been to a single game at this World Cup.
- [37:28]
Emma Payton
Fascinating. Dan, Adam, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate your time. Karaz, what was your sort of reaction when you saw the story yesterday? I think everyone was kind of trying to understand it, but obviously caused a massive storm on social media.
- [37:42]
Keris Jones
Yeah, I think it's bonkers. I think that first of all, I have a bit of an issue with the idea of suspending a ban anyway. If it's incorrect, overturn it. If it's correct, then serve the suspension. I really do think it's that simple. And I think that, you know, Nick Miller has written a great column about the situation on the Athletic and in it he kind of points out that the number of players that have received red cards at this World cup, they have all gone on to either serve a one match suspension or if their team's been eliminated, they'll do so in, in their next international game. We've obviously, we obviously saw Cristiano Ronaldo having two games of a three game suspension suspended and now this with Baligun. I think it's really hard not to feel that this is directly linked to a player's profile and to their role in the tournament. Obviously, I'm sure that kind of decision makers would, would deny that and will deny that. Belgium have every Right. To feel extraordinarily hard done by. I can't help but feel that if I don't know Romelu Lukaku had made the exact same challenge in his last game, this would not have been the case. And the role of Trump and the White House in apparently getting involved. This is not what we want football to be and this is not what football should be. And I think it's massively disappointing and I think it's a real kind of potential stain on the US's journey, to be honest.
- [39:03]
Emma Payton
Well, UEFA have now waded in as well and they've said that yesterday's decision to suspend for a probationary period of a year, the implementation of the one match automatic suspension following the red card issued to the player following Balogun crossed a red line. It's a fairly lengthy statement and they end it saying that they are expressing their disbelief at such an unprecedented, incomprehensible and unjustifiable decision.
- [39:30]
Keris Jones
Yeah, it's a pretty strong statement from UEFA and I think also not one that they really needed to make as it's clearly something that they feel extremely strongly about. I doubt FIFA are going to change their decision as a result of this. So this is clearly just something that they feel incredibly strongly on. Reading through it, they've said sometimes rules are open to interpretation. In this case, not. The minimum automatic suspension of one match after a red card is not discretionary. It's a principle embedded in regulations which can't be made subject to exceptions, let alone in the middle of the tournament where several other players have been in the same situation and served their suspension. I think that's, that's the key point. It's also probably UEFA laying down a bit of a marker of do not expect us to do this at the Euros. If you have a red card, you will be banned. So, yeah, they clearly feel incredibly strongly about it and it'll be interesting to see what FIFA's response is to UEFA's response. I don't think this is going to be a discussion that ends at the end of this 90 minutes of the US against Belgium tonight.
- [40:32]
Emma Payton
Adam mentioned that Belgium are furious they have been granted the right to appeal the decision. No surprise as well that their coach, Rudy Garcia didn't hold back, you know, with his thoughts in their pre match news conference.
- [40:43]
Arsenal Writer
Yeah, I mean, when you're looking at it from their perspective, there's a few different things to factor in. I guess the biggest one is preparation for the game. I know obviously the guys said, okay, what if Flo Baligun scores the winner. So that is probably the biggest. But also they're preparing for a completely different looking team as well. Because if you take Flo Balogun out of that US Men's national team, how do they play without him up front, I think, is a very different picture. So from their perspective, I think that there's, you know, multiple ways to understand their frustrations. And from. From my perspective, what's. I guess most. I guess the strangest part of it is there is already a precedent for this with the Ronaldo situation. Like the fact you're able to look at an example and say, hey, we've already done this at a World Cup. I think just shows you where the sport is going, obviously.
- [41:40]
Emma Payton
I mean, Art mentioned there, you know, let's imagine he scores a winning goal later, because this is. He's been their star performer, hasn't he? The fact that he's got three goals already during the tournament. What impact do you think he will have on this match later on? And how do we expect it all to play out?
- [41:55]
Keris Jones
Yeah, it'd be funny if he had an absolute stinker after all of this, wouldn't it? Yeah. I think to go back to what Art was saying, we weren't really sure how the US would set up and how they would do this without Balogun because of how important he is as their striker to the way they play. So I think from their perspective, I'd be interested to know how much Mauricio Pochettino and his players kind of knew of this process while it was going on. But from their perspective, I think they will sort of go back to business as usual. And that formula which has got them this far through the tournament, they haven't looked perfect, but they've got here and it's worked pretty well, and Balogun's been essential to that. I think they will go back to business as usual. I also think that, you know, it's really important to point out that this is not Balagan's fault that he is at the kind of centre of this storm. I don't think. You know, I was of the opinion that the red card was the right decision, even though I didn't think there was any malice in the challenge that he made. But it's not his fault that people kind of above and around him have gone to this extent to get that ban overturned. And I hope that he is sort of able to cope with kind of the scrutiny that that brings on him as well, because I feel for him a bit. I don't Think he's asked to be at the center of this. But in terms of the game tonight, you know, the most that the US can do is try and kind of maybe have a little bit of that. You know, if you want to make us the villain, we'll be the villain. And the most that Belgium can do is kind of have that, like, siege mentality and that underdog mentality of, okay, everything is against us and we're gonna, we're gonna fight back.
- [43:33]
Emma Payton
Yeah. Very, very interesting to see how that one plays out before usa, Belgium, we've got the small matter of Spain, Portugal. I'm, I'm already looking forward to that.
- [43:42]
Arsenal Writer
Yeah.
- [43:42]
Dan Sheldon
Yeah.
- [43:42]
Arsenal Writer
I, I feel like whenever these two play at major tournaments is always a good game. I guess if you're looking at it from a Donald Trump perspective, which I very rarely do, they're probably hoping it's a Portugal, usa, you know, quarterfinal, but I'm not sure if that's going to be the way things turn out. I really, really am interested in Yamal against Mendes, how that's going to go out, whether, where the give and take is going to be between them. But also, I just wanted to say on Belgium and usa, people shouldn't underestimate Belgium or Leandro Trossard, who's created more chances than anyone in the tournament so far. And they've all been from open play. So, yeah, just a little shout out.
- [44:28]
Emma Payton
Always with your Arsenal hat on. Yeah. Never far away, is it? Thanks for your company today, both of you. We're gonna go and have a lie down. We've got plenty more work to do before we.
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Keris Jones
We get to that.
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Arsenal Writer
Yeah, I got a bit more work.
- [44:39]
Keris Jones
A bit more work, I think work, then nap, then Spain, Portugal, and then proper sleep.
- [44:45]
Emma Payton
That's a great schedule. I love it. Thank you to both of you. Thanks as well to Adam and to Dan, to Matt in Times Square, and to Jack from the Azteca. Remember, all our World cup coverage across the athletic app is completely free during the tournament, so make sure you get involved. We'll be back with more tomorrow. See you then.
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