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- [00:00]
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Paul Taylor
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- [02:10]
Adam Leventhal
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me Adam Leventhal. So it is getting very, very nervy at the bottom of the Premier league. Less than 24 hours after Thomas Frank was sacked by Spurs, Nottingham have parted company with Sean Dyche. So is a fourth manager of the season what they need to avoid the drop? And is the ex Wolves boss Vito Pereira the man to save them? Well, joining us for this one is our Nottingham Forest Correspondent Paul Taylor and Nick Miller as well. So Forest, they're 17th, three points above the relegation zone. And West Ham and their last two games lost to relegation rivals Leeds and then drew nil nil at home against Wolves on Wednesday night, which was the final straw for Evangelos Maranakis, the owner of Forest. Paul, are you surprised that this has happened?
- [03:13]
Paul Taylor
Do you know what? Last night didn't really feel like a sacking performance in many senses, but it wasn't a decision that was based on the back of one game. Forest were actually quite not unlucky, but unfortunate not to not to get the win, the must win result that Dice needed to kind of preserve his job. Last night they had 35 efforts on goal at an XG of 2.8, which was their biggest ever in the Premier League without ever scoring. But it was just a straw that broke the Camel's back. The shadow of poor performances against Leeds United, twice against Everton, and a dismal display in Braga were what were hanging over Sean Dyche. And that that really was what cumulatively added up to the Forest hierarchy deciding that they needed to make yet another change during what's been a remarkably chaotic season.
- [04:03]
Adam Leventhal
Nick, let's get your take on this, because the form overall isn't that bad for a team in a relegation scrap. Nine points from six games included a win at West Ham, the draw with Arsenal, a win at Brentford, points against palace and Wolves. And I know that the Wolves one was a big issue. Obviously Shan Dyche, nominated for Manager of the Month in January into the Europa League playoffs to not being good enough. Is this fair on Shan Dyche? And give us the more juicy context, because this isn't about people looking from the outside and knowing exactly what's going on, you know, because you've been watching it and feeling it and not enjoying it.
- [04:44]
Nick Miller
I guess feeling it is certainly the right word. Yeah, it's a strange one because although those results that you. And those kind of broadly positive results that you read out, they haven't really played well in most of those games. I mean, the two wins West Ham, they were very lucky to kind of win that. There was a goal disallowed with a sort of questionable offside. And then with the penalty, which some people were complaining about, but you know, goalkeeper punched the guy in the head. I think that's fair enough to give that as a penalty. But still, Forest was pretty bad in that game. The Brentford game was quite strange. A sort of positive version of that would be. It was a throwback to last season when Forest won without really having much possession and, you know, get some counter attack goals and, you know, everyone's happy and it's the. It's like Nuno's back again and everyone's delighted. But there haven't been a lot of particularly good performances in that time. I mean, Paul has watched. Will have watched them much closer than I have. But weirdly, the palace game was possibly one of the better performances in all that time with the draw against them, with 10 men for over half the game, when a kind of one one draw against a team that was, well, possibly still is spiralling is the best performance in recent weeks, it's not a great sign. Now, is that a reason to get rid of the manager? I don't know, probably not. But it feels like it's a combination of those performances, a consultation, I think, with some of the senior players, which we might get onto in a bit, and being kind of spooked by other teams around Forest picking up points. West Ham obviously in really good form, teams above Forest, Tottenham, teams like that, people are obviously getting very scared about. But you suspect that they probably have already got enough. Well, not already got enough, but they have enough kind of points in the bank that they will be okay ultimately. So, yeah, I think it's probably a combination of all those things, not necessarily just the results that Dyche has achieved.
- [06:47]
Adam Leventhal
And Paul. Shaun Dyche sensed this was coming, didn't he, from what he was saying in his press conference. And I mean, you can spin on from what Nick has been saying about players being consulted as well, which always. It does worry me a little bit because that's the tail wagging the dog a touch, isn't it?
- [07:04]
Paul Taylor
Oh, absolutely. It's kind of ironic in a sense, in that when Sean Dyce was appointed, he. He was the perfect tonic for what had gone before. You had Andrew Postecoglou, who frankly never seemed to understand the club, his fans, the City. Every time he spoke, he spoke about himself, his previous history with Tottenham. It was never about Forest and he never won over the fans. Then he. I think what had gone before actually helped Sean Dice hugely because then he swept into the City ground on this tide of positivity, on having this connection with the club, having been a. An academy player, having been able to talk about loving the badge and having the opportunity to wear it on his chest that he never did as a player. Coming armed with Steve Stone and Ian Wone, two Forest legends, it all garnered this real sense of positivity and togetherness and unity. And having had that connection, it's kind of ironic now that there's this sense that there's a disconnect between him and the players who we're told, you know, haven't been too impressed with his style of play, haven't had the greatest amount of confidence that the way he does things was going to get them out of the. The trouble that. That they're in. As, as Nick's mentioned, you've got West Ham who are on a. A worryingly good run of form, and I think the specter and the thought of having Nuno Espirito Santo, the man who was in charge at Forest right at the start of the campaign, potentially being the man that inspires West Ham to go above them now and. And condemn them, God forbid, to relegation back to the Championship after working so hard to get there for 23 years, is just something that Evangelos Marinakis couldn't tolerate the thought of.
- [08:43]
Adam Leventhal
We'll talk about the context around potentially bringing Vitor Pereira in to save Forrest in a bit, which is also pretty confusing. But I wanted to touch on one of those games that you've mentioned in terms of almost being defining games where you thought, right, well, the season is unraveling here and that was the defeat away in the Europa League against Braga. And I was reading your piece that came after it and it was very melancholic. I felt almost teary. Teary for you reading about it, you know, this was a season of promise. This wasn't supposed to be like this, you know, the fans deserve more than this, etc. Etc. And what the fans were shouting and chanting as well, sideways and backwards, everywhere we go. And what the effing hell was that at the end of the game? That felt like a defining moment that almost you were never going to be able to get beyond that.
- [09:32]
Paul Taylor
It's probably too strong to say it felt like a surprise, but the degree of emotion and passion that was demonstrated by fans that night, I guess it's all understandable when you put it into the context of. I know fans who'd traveled out to Portugal with the knowledge that they hadn't got a hotel room booked because they were flying back from Porto at like half past six in the morning. So they hadn't bothered booking a hotel. They were committing to sleeping on the airport floor for three or four hours to go and watch their team play. And people were flying via Dublin, they were flying via Schiphol, they were flying via Germany just to make sure they got to this game. And it was an absolutely torrid night in Portugal. Forget the sunshine of Seville that we saw at the start of the season when it was beautiful and Forest fans got to line the streets drinking beer and enjoying the party atmosphere of being back in Europe for the first time in three decades. This was a rainy, freezing, dismal night where Forest fans got soaked going to the game and then they saw this dismal performance. One of the worst I've seen watching Forest for more than, you know, two decades, almost 25 years. It was terrible. And you can understand why they felt so badly. And it did feel like a turning point that I won't go into it too much, but, you know, there's a whole other aspect of how Forest do really well when their core of first team players play. If he picks his strongest team, Forest have been fine. Where it's fallen apart is when he picks some of the fringe players and they haven't performed. And that was definitely the case in Braga. But it did feel like a turning point and like a moment where, you know, things perhaps started to unravel for Sean Dyche in Portugal, and correct me.
- [11:03]
Adam Leventhal
If I'm wrong, but he was also digging out the players, those fringe players, after the game against Wrexham in which they lost and went out of the FA cup as well. What was your take on that? Because I almost think sometimes when a manager does that, they're feeling confident. They're saying, well, you know, maybe I'm going to be the one that's going to have a chance to restructure this squad and I need to give them a little bit of a rocket. Yeah, maybe for a Europa League game, but maybe, you know, looking towards the summer and, you know, even, you know, the January transfer window or whatever it was going to be next. Do you think that he was feeling confident at that point and how destructive was it to criticize the players in the way that he did, especially after Wrexham?
- [11:42]
Paul Taylor
Well, after Wrexham, he. He probably threw his players under the bus, in a sense, and then 13 days later, he got them back on the bus to go to Braga and was expecting them to perform. With hindsight, that that was one of the things that did cause a little bit of unrest in the Forest dressroom. There was a feeling that he had been too critical of their performances without perhaps taking enough responsibility himself for those displays. It has been from the very summer, an interesting season or an interesting position that Forest had left themselves in. There was a belief at the club in the summer that they'd built a squad that was the strongest they've ever had. That has to be put in the context of the team that won the European cup in 79 and 80, where they did it with such a small group of players. Some brilliant, superb club legends who will never be forgotten. You know, the likes of John Robertson, who we lost sadly recently, and Gary Bertels and Peter Shilton. And we could list them all off, but this was the strongest squad of players they felt behind the scenes of the club. But the problem has always been is that they signed young, talented players with lots of potential for the future. Players like Delaine Bakwa, you know, young players who were still developing and learning and evolving and who hadn't necessarily got a lot of Premier League experience and all of a sudden they were parachuted in and expected to to thrive straight away and they just haven't done it. Like many players that have gone before in recent years, R.L. mangala springs to mind. They needed the time to sort of bed in and get used to the surroundings of the Premier League. And that's where Forest have fallen short because they haven't had the depth of squad because of that, because they're trying to bed in. These players when they've played Forest have looked like a lesser form of the team they are when all the players that were part of the team that finished seventh last season are involved in the starting lineup. Yeah.
- [13:27]
Nick Miller
And I think whether this kind of played into the decision to get rid of him, I'm not sure. But I think the way that Dyche use the squad has been certainly in the last few weeks quite strange. I mean, even if you look at last night only making two substitutions when they were kind of hammering the door for however long and not managing to score a goal, it seems to have completely discounted Bakwa, who hasn't even been in the squad for the last couple of games. James McAtee played in the Europa League against French Varros a couple of weeks ago. Best game. As Paul kind of said, he has had a very tough first half season at Forest. Hasn't really shown much, but he was really good in that game. Certainly his best game for Forest so far. And I don't think he's played a minute since he hasn't been seen. Tyro Onyi came on against Brentford, scored a goal. He hasn't been seen since either, which is partly a consequence of other players arriving. But. And someone like Jacunha, who is this kind of quite promising looking Brazilian centre back, he hasn't really got a look in either. So there was a huge amount of money has been spent on this squad and you know, other things like playing Nicolas Dominguez as a winger who's, you know, he's a fine player but is a central midfielder by trade. It works in some games and then in other games you kind of think, ah, he could. You've got some decent attackers here, Sean, you should probably use them. There's 130 odd million quids worth of them on the bench and you're playing a central midfielder there. That's the sort of thing that is not going to endear him to the fans, particularly whether that was a factor in them getting rid of him or not. But I don't know. But it's certainly something that has been commented upon as a kind of quite strange way of using the squad well.
- [15:09]
Adam Leventhal
Next we'll focus on the decision makers at Forest and how culpable they are in this chaotic season.
- [15:17]
Nick Miller
This is the Athletic FC podcast with.
- [15:19]
Adam Leventhal
Adam Leventhal.
- [15:23]
Schwab Advertiser
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- [15:47]
Momentous Advertiser
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- [17:01]
Paul Taylor
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- [17:36]
Adam Leventhal
After Nuno Espirito Santo left in September September, it was Ange Postecoglou in October and now Dyche leaving in February. Nottingham Forest looking for their fourth manager in five months and all that after starting the season having returned to Europe. Nic, let me put this one to you first on Evangelos Marinakis. We know that he's a combustible character. Are we getting into the realms of him losing his grip this season? Because it is. It is chaos.
- [18:06]
Paul Taylor
Now.
- [18:07]
Nick Miller
I don't know whether losing his grip is the right thing. I think he is.
- [18:11]
Adam Leventhal
Or misusing his grip.
- [18:14]
Nick Miller
Well, yeah, so I think there are a few things there. I mean, he is again, Paul might have a slightly better handle on this than me, but I get the impression that he is still pretty popular with the support. And there are kind of various reasons for that. The central one being that as I've just written in a piece that will but by the time this goes out, we'll be on the Athletic. The last game before he officially took over back in 2017, Forest had to win it. I think Paul and I were both at that game and very kind of nervous. Had to win it against Ipswich to avoid getting relegated to League one. And you know, now eight years or whatever it is later, they're in the Europa League. So even just that, that kind of those bare facts mean that he has obviously been on the football team side of things anyway, has been a net positive for Forest. But there are many kind of fingers or many people or things you can point the finger of blame at for how this scene has descended into chaos. Whether that's the various managers who haven't used the players that they have very well players themselves, the people who bought those players. But the kind of one central factor in all of this is Marinakis. And you know, he is extremely keen to kind of take the credit for things when things are going well. And there have been lots of things that have gone well. If you look at a lot of the statements that Forrest put out, his name will be in them. Whether that's for new Signings or proposals to expand the stadium or charity drives. There was a pretty good charity campaign that Forrest did just before Christmas. There was a reunion before the Europa League game against Malmo of the team, of the players that were involved in the 1979 European cup final. His name was very prominently in the announcement for that as well. But if you look at the three statements of the three managers that have been sacked this season, Nuno Postecoglou and Dych Marinakis name has been nowhere near those. So it's like he kind of is very keen to take credit for the kind of positive things, but wouldn't necessarily, or at least in public anyway, won't take the blame for the things that are going wrong. From his perspective. There will be a part of him that thinks, well this is kind of. So he's had, he's done this before Olympiacos like there have been a couple of seasons where Olympiacos have had four managers and the last time they did it, admittedly one of them was sort of a caretaker and you know, maybe whether you want to include that, I don't know. But the last time he did that Olympiacos won the Conference League so in the same season and the fourth guy that they appointed manager was in 2024 is still the manager now. So from our perspective this is chaos. This is kind of complete. It looks like a club that doesn't plan more than about two weeks in the future. Everything's going wrong. He may look at it slightly differently, he may think of it as a sort of. Well, it's worked at Olympiacos so there's no particular reason why it wouldn't work at Forest. And you know, from here Forest survive in the Premier League and then, you know, have a decent run in the Europa League. Maybe not winning the whole thing might be a bit of a long shot at this stage, but he may also again think, well that there has been a lot of changes and a lot of sackings and so. But ultimately it's kind of, it's sort of worked not in the way that he would have had in mind at the start of the season, but not been quite the disaster that us kind of pearl clutching English people would think it would be.
- [21:45]
Paul Taylor
There's an irony here as well in the sense that all of this chaos stems from one moment in the summer where Forest and specifically Marinakis were trying to take the club a step forward after finishing seventh and getting back into Europe for the first time. There was a sense behind the scenes at the club that they could take a step on that they could evolve the club and become not just a team that fights relegation, but one that could compete for a top eight, top ten finish every season and behind. That was the catalyst for them to want to appoint Eduardo Edu Gaspar as the global head of football. A man who would built a fine reputation at Arsenal, a sort of global reputation, if you like, for the work he did there in helping, you know, transform, take them a step on to become the team that they are now. But that became the sort of hand grenade that was dropped into the. Into the club behind the scenes because immediately Nuno didn't have a good relationship with, with Adu, there were issues with different perspectives on recruitment. Nuno for his part, and you know, he wasn't blameless in this, but he, he became very public in his criticism and questions over his relationship with Marinakis and with Edu in. In two different press conferences that ultimately led to. To his sacking. And I don't think Marinakis made that decision lightly, but I think he felt like he'd been backed into a corner and whilst Nuno might have wanted to create this him or me situation with him and Edu, I don't know, it didn't work. Whatever his motivation was, and he's the one that's found himself moving on to a new job. And Forester found themselves having a succession of different managers in Ange Postecoglou and now Sean Dyche. So that that was the start of it all. Ironically, a sense of ambition and a desire to make the club grow has ended up taking them backwards in. In some senses.
- [23:34]
Adam Leventhal
Well, next up, we're going to discuss the next guy that we're expecting to be in the dugout for Forest next game, and that is Vitor Pereira.
- [23:49]
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- [23:52]
Paul Taylor
Yikes.
- [23:53]
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- [24:09]
Adam Leventhal
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- [24:53]
Paul Taylor
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- [25:27]
Nick Miller
This is the Athletic FC podcast with.
- [25:30]
Adam Leventhal
Adam Leventhal so Vitor Pereira is a leading candidate to come in to replace Sean Dyche at Forest. He previously worked with Evangelos Marinakis at Olympiacos and he won the league and cup double back in in 2015. We're going to be getting Tim Spears take on how it went for Wolves recently, but also at the end of last season in a moment's time. But but Paul, let's just get the latest on, you know, his his imminent arrival.
- [26:00]
Paul Taylor
Let's say it became apparent that he was a target for Forest late last night. I think we did the story at about 2 2.30 this morning that he had emerged as the leading candidate. That might explain the bags under my eyes, by the way. I think I got to bed about 4am but talks are underway. He's obviously as you've mentioned because he was at Olympiaikos in 2014-15. There is an existing relationship there. Marinakis and the rest of the Forest hierarchy know him very well and I think they're they're one round definitely not by the start of the season he made this season when he departed Wolves after a miserable start to the season, but to the job he did when he was appointed in December 2014 when Wolves were in a bit of a pickle if we're entirely honest. But he kind of rallied the troops and got them going in the right direction and Forest hope he can deliver the the same kind of new manager bounce at the city ground. And you know, if they'd had new manager bounce with every one of the managers this season, they'd have been bouncing up and down all season, wouldn't they? But hopefully this will be the one that gets them going in the right direction and fends off that worrying prospect of a return to the Championship, which would be a complete disaster for many different reasons.
- [27:07]
Adam Leventhal
Tim, good to see you. What's your take on this Vitor Pereira coming in to be the firefighter?
- [27:13]
Tim Spears
I mean, it's not a surprise, I don't think, you know, given his sort of career history, given the Olympiacos links. Not a surprise given how Forest, you know, need a quick fix and there's recent evidence that he can be the man that can provide that, you know, as Tails. Beautifully put. Wolves are in a pickle last year, if that was a pickle. I don't know what this is for a Wolves point of view. But anyway, yeah, he took a Wolves team that were 19th at the time. I think there were five points adrift and kind of instigated really a sort of an instant turnaround, you know, that Forest need now started with a resounding 30 win at Leicester and Wolves kind of rolled on from there really and survived with five games to spare in the end, which is really impressive job. Perhaps a little bit underrated last year. You know, that's the good news. The bad news in terms of Forest hiring an ex Wolves manager is he's no Nuno in my opinion. And of course Nuno's at the center of all this. And as he's managing the team, trying to catch Forrest, I say he's no Nuno. Probably in terms of his tactical acumen and maybe slightly in terms of his man management, he's just not quite at Nuno's level. But he does share similarities, you know, in terms of how he also sort of embraced Wolverhampton and the City and the club and really sort of roused the fans. You know, good character, very passionate, you know, I know that's, that'll be important to the Forest fans. What I also did, which is far more relevant is is he won the important matches against the teams around them. Wolves didn't really beat any of the sort of big boys last year under Pereira, but they won the cre crunch games, the one that's the ones that really mattered against like Leicester, Southampton, Ipswich, Man United and Spurs, who were sort of around them in the table at the time. You know, these are the teams they beat. They went on this incredible six game winning run in, in March, April, which saw them over the line. Unfortunately, the next win was in December, which is, yeah, a different, a different.
- [29:04]
Adam Leventhal
Story in terms of what happened this season then because, you know, a lot of Forest fans will be thinking, hang on a minute, the straw that broke the camel's back was us not being able to beat Wolves and the reason Wolves are down where they are is because they had Vito Pereira in charge at the beginning of the season for 10 games. They lost eight and drew two. Was it simply down to the fact that, you know, more crown jewels had been sold or was he losing the plot during those games?
- [29:33]
Tim Spears
I would agree it's a sackable offense. Having watched a lot of Wolves this season, it crossed Ruben Amrim his job as well. Rightly so. Really, I mean, how long. How long do you want this to be, really? But yeah, recruitment was. Was at the sort of cornerstone of what went wrong at Wolves. But Vita Pereira has to take his share of the blame for that. I mean, Wolves did make him more of a sort of a manager type in the summer. They brought in a director of football in Dominic Arteta who had worked with him before. He was sort of, you know, Pereira's man. And obviously there's a recruitment team at play here. But from what I understand, you know, Pereira had the opportunity to sign players who Wolves could really have done with, players like Carl Walker, Peters and Josh Brownhill. And I think Harry Wilson was someone that they looked at, you know, Premier League sort of ready players, but he decided against that. I think Hayden Hackney at Middlesbrough was another one they looked at. They all look like pretty good additions to me now, but instead, having lost Cunha and Semedo and Ain't Nouri and Pablo Sarabia, all players, you'd made a good impact on the Premier League. They signed an entire cast of characters with. With not one Premier League appearance between them. It's absolutely. It's bizarre looking back, but, you know, some of the additions they made are really, really dreadful. Some of them, you know, I sort of question if they're in, you know, the right profession. One of them's left already. John Arias, you know, the big Cunha replacement. No goals, no assists in his first 20 appearances. You know, he's gone already. Yeah, Pre didn't quite get the plays he wanted, but he also turned down, yeah, some good ones. And Rob Edwards has shown that, you know, it's still not that bad a squad. You know, they do have two Brazil internationals in midfield. You know, they did have Strand Larsen, a proven Premier League goalscorer. The slight improvements they made under Edwards have made Pereira look a bit worse. But either way, yeah, poor squad, a terrible start to the season. And one problem that he had was that he just could not find any kind of formula to stop it. In his 10 matches he had this season, he made 31 changes to his starting lineup. He basically Had a lot of ideas, but also no ideas and was just throwing a lot at a wall to see what would stick. But I think that's less relevant to what Forest are looking at right now, to be honest. It's what he did when he came in last season to sort of simplify things that were going wrong and immediately sort of, you know, make things easier for Wolves, which is far more relevant to what Forest are looking at for, what, the next three months.
- [31:50]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah. Vito Pereira was hoping for a glowing reference from Tim Spears. He had a lot of ideas, but no ideas. And also, Paul, he's no new. No. Doesn't fill you with much confidence, this, does it? Or do you know something different?
- [32:05]
Paul Taylor
Do I know something different about Vitor Ferreira?
- [32:08]
Adam Leventhal
This is going to be the bounce that's going to last longer than the previous bounces that didn't happen, especially with Ange.
- [32:15]
Paul Taylor
If it doesn't bounce now, it's never going to bounce. I think it's the way to put it. This is the most vital appointment of the season so far, because if the club don't get this one right, then there's no more room to maneuver. And the prospect of going back into the championship is genuinely a nightmare scenario. They would literally be a point where, because of the finances involved, they would have to virtually tear it up and start again. There'd have to be almost a very significant turnover of the squad. The highest earners would probably have to be sold just to stay the right side of psr. You know, players like Elliot Anderson, who's been a joy to watch, and Murillo, who's been outstanding. All these players, their futures would immediately be in doubt. And the prospect of how to build a team within more chaos that can get out of the championship would be a daunting one, should we say, because we know how difficult it is to get out of the championship. It took them 23 years and a spell in League One to be able to finally escape under Steve Cooper. And to even contemplate the thought of going back there is truly dreadful. So hopefully we'll get the Vito Pereira of his first spell and not Vitor Pereira of this summer. And if they do do that, then there is a lot of reasons to believe that he. He could be a good appointment, but it's entirely dependent on that and nothing else.
- [33:36]
Adam Leventhal
Nick, let's. Let's end with you with. With a bit of positivity, if you can muster it. Do you think this is going to work? This is the right thing to be doing right here, right now. And the feeling in your water is, yeah, we'll probably get enough points and we'll be okay.
- [33:52]
Nick Miller
I first have to admire your innocent soul for saying you were coming to me for some optimism with that question. It does seem to be a kind of, you know, a lot of managerial appointments were made for a lot of different reasons these days. This seems to be purely vibes based on the kind of. Well, he made everyone feel quite good about themselves at Wolves last season, so could do with some of that at Forest for 12 league games and then some in the Europa League as well. I have no idea if it's going to work, I'm afraid. My instinct, even before Dyche was sacked, my instinct was that Forest was probably just going to be about okay, but now, who knows? I mean, it's completely up in the air. I think so, yeah. Sorry. If anyone was, I'm going to blame Adam for suggesting that I was going to end on a note of optimism when I just don't know.
- [34:43]
Adam Leventhal
Well, maybe I can get some optimism from Tim. Do you think that Forest fans should be positive and think, yeah, let's concentrate on the firefighting job that he did rather than this season. That's more like his level.
- [34:57]
Tim Spears
I'm not going to tell Forest fans to be positive, especially when, you know, the likes of Nick Miller are among them. No, I would say, look, he did a really good job last year. He immediately came in and he simplified things. He tightened up the defense. He went 3, 4, 2, 1 with his system. Not necessarily anything too sort of outlandish. They weren't pressing particularly high. It was just, you know, a tenacious midfield, good wing backs and give the ball to Cunha basically, who then fed Strand Larsen. I mean that was, that was the plan, you know, didn't overcomplicate it. Whether that's a formula that works for Forest. I mean, you know, Nick and Tails are know a lot better than me. But I think in Morgan Gibbs White they have a Kunya type figure. In Igor Jesus, they have a Strand Larsen type, you know, goal scorer perhaps. They have bitey midfielders, they have wingback options. So there is a template there that he used at Wolves that he could maybe replicate at Forest. And you can see from his career history, you know, okay, he's had a lot of clubs but he doesn't know how to get quick results. He doesn't know how to get on a roll and generate some momentum. I guess with Forest you just worry that there's so much to bring together. The thoughts and methods of Three managers and this season and so many players and so many conflicting messages. How you bring all that together is a huge task, but you know it can be done.
- [36:10]
Paul Taylor
The thing for me is that Forest have got a core of players that are good enough to get the club out of trouble. It's just any manager that can come in and get even a vague tune out of the best starting 11 they've got is going to get Forest to safety. I know that's a very simple way of putting it, but if he can do that, then they've got a good chance of staying up. But with all the surrounding chaos, with all the number of managers they've had and the fact he's going to be delivering a new message with a new point of view, he has to hit the ground running quickly. It has to have an immediate impact. There isn't time for him to take a few matches to bet in. He's got to start now and that's the crux of it. Is it possible that they'll stay up? Yes, but it has to be an immediate impact from him and that's the challenge for him.
- [36:52]
Nick Miller
I've come up with a couple of optimistic things, so. Oh, go on that just to keep me happy. Adam.
- [36:56]
Adam Leventhal
Took you a while.
- [36:57]
Nick Miller
Yeah. You can't rush these things. One is that kind of absurd as it seems for a manager who's only in charge for 25 games? But I kind of mentioned it earlier, Dice seemed to have very much taken a view on some players who have kind of clearly very talented. McAtee Bakwa. He even seems to have kind of broadly written off Luka Netz, the left back who they signed about two weeks ago based on not very much. So from that perspective, someone kind of coming in fresh, someone who will hopefully kind of take players as he finds them and without any kind of preconceptions, then hopefully that might get the most out of the talent that is in the squad and some of the talent that Dyche wasn't really using. The other positive thing is potentially great news for the pubs of Nottingham as well if he continues his policy of going out on the town after victories. So, yeah, I mean, I no longer live in Nottingham. Paul does. So he will have a much better idea of the pubs that he could take him in. But if you're listening to this veto, I can recommend the Trent Navigation just near the City ground.
- [37:59]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah. What pub would it be, Paul? Would it be the Trent Bridge Inn or what?
- [38:03]
Paul Taylor
I think I'm right in saying that in Wolverhampton he was fond of Wetherspoons. I can't vouch for whether that's a good thing or not, but they do have a few of those in Nottingham, so you'd have a few choices there. But there are definitely, as Nick says, a few better places around West Bridgeford that he could enjoy a beverage or two in if he wanted to celebrate. And hopefully we'll have something to celebrate. There'll be plenty of people who will be willing to buy him a pint if he can keep Forest up, that's.
- [38:30]
Adam Leventhal
For sure, including the owner. Yes, gents, thank you very much indeed. Tim. Thanks for your take on all of this, Nick, and to Paul as well. And who knows, I mean, Wolves will be joining the OGs in terms of managerial churn Watford next season in the Championship. Fingers crossed for Nick and for Paul that it's not Forrest joining Wolves down there in the dungeon. Thank you very much for joining us as well and we'll catch you next time on the Athletic fc.
- [39:02]
Nick Miller
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers would be Guy Clark, Mike Stavrou and Jay Beal, with editing by Paul Iliff and Nick Thompson. The Executive producer is Admir. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows. Search for the Athletic wherever you get your podcasts. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
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