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- [00:00]
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- [00:20]
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- [00:38]
BOSS Sponsor Announcer
this episode of the Athletic FC is sponsored by BOSS, businesswear provider for the US Men's National Soccer team. Long before kickoff, the performance has already begun. For the players, the crest is not simply worn, it's earned. BOSS understands what it takes to build something worthy of a crest. Constant refinement, precision in every stitch and as the USMNT steps into the spotlight on home soil, the BOSS is outfitting those who wear the badge, empowering them to step forward with confidence, express their individuality and be their own boss in relaxed, lightweight and breathable tailoring from Boss Performance and soccer fans, BOSS has you covered too. Whether you want to look and feel as sharp as your hero's embossed performance or show your pride from the stands in jerseys, polos and jackets in national colors and badges. Own the moment with confidence. Discover the Boss performance collection as worn by the US Men's national soccer team and the fan capsule of jerseys, polos and jackets in national colors. Wear your passion your way and be your own boss@boss.com or at your nearest Boss store,
- [01:40]
Henry Bushnell
the Athletic FC.
- [01:45]
Emma Payton
Hi there and welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Emma Payton. Mbappe fires France into the round of 16, Haaland hauls Norway through and Mexico have set up a possible clash with England. Plus in the transfer market, spurs beat Manchester United to Matthias Fernandes. Well, there is so much to get into here with me in the studio today we have the Athletics, Mark Critchley and Karl Anker, ironically, two Manchester United writers. After that news yesterday, who'd have funky, who'd have thought it? How are we both feeling now that the dust has settled a little bit after that breaking news story?
- [02:22]
Mark Critchley
Yeah, it's fine. Didn't fancy him anyway.
- [02:24]
Emma Payton
No, not fan. Got relegated so it's fine. Is that the thinking?
- [02:27]
David Ornstein
Yeah. Why?
- [02:28]
Emma Payton
All right.
- [02:29]
Karl Anker
I'm just upset about how much work it's going to cause us. That's the main thing in all of this. Small violins out. Yeah, I love work. Yeah, I love My job?
- [02:36]
Mark Critchley
Yeah, yeah. This is a signing that. Some signings bring your deadlines forward and you're like, oh, yep, great. Excuse me, I'm going to get back in the lab.
- [02:47]
Karl Anker
And here goes Quinones. No flag for now. Quinones of Mexico.
- [02:54]
Emma Payton
So, going to talk about the World Cup. Incredible scenes in Mexico as they dispatched Ecuador last night. Erling Haaland came up with a late winner for Norway against Ivory Coast. But only one place to start, and that is at the MetLife, where Adam Crafton was to see another scintillating France showing as they beat Sweden 3 0.
- [03:15]
Adam Crafton
Wow. Who can stop France? I think that's the question everyone is asking after this latest France performance. They were fantastic at times in the group phase. This against Sweden, it just took it up a level. Elise again, another two assists. Barkala comes in for Douay. He scores. And then you've got Mbappe, who is just. He looks unstoppable. He looks like a man on a mission. He looks like someone desperate to get all the fun out of the way before the mind games start with Jose Mourinho at Real Madrid next season. But in all seriousness, France, I mean, they can't play England, Brazil or Argentina until the final. Their next game is going to be against Paraguay. That's in Philadelphia. After that is Canada or Morocco in the quarter final. That won't be easy if it is Morocco. And then we think, you know, one of Spain, Portugal, Belgium, perhaps even the United States in the semi final. But that route to the final is starting to open up. There's a good travel journey as well for France. They won't have left this northeast corridor. Boston, New York and Philadelphia, except for the semi final, which could be in Dallas for them throughout the whole competition. If they play the final here at MetLife in New Jersey, that'll be their third time on the MetLife pitch as well. So it's all coming together for France. Look, football's unpredictable. Who knows what will happen? But at this stage, who's bailing against them? I don't think I am.
- [04:44]
Emma Payton
I'm not sure I am either, to be honest with you. Adam's match piece over on the Athletic reads. In a World cup of chaos, France look unstoppable. So you haven't had a look at that already? Make sure you do. I mean, it is so hard to see past them, isn't it? So it's an easy question to start with. Can they be stopped?
- [05:00]
Mark Critchley
Unlikely. Unlikely. The first half, they were a little slow to get going, and then they really took it up a gear in the second half. There was two or three plays where they doing the wide rotations and then a player does the underlapping run before they hit the cross into the final third. There are moments where France are attacking and it looks as if they are 15 players. And it must be awful being a wide defender in particular, trying to keep tabs on everything, I suppose. Can they be stopped? It's also the question of, like, if they do win the World cup, who wins the golden ball? Because it should be Mbappe. Right? But I'm looking at Alise going, the team runs through you so crit. How'd you stop France?
- [05:40]
Karl Anker
Well, look, I've had opinions on France and I'm struggling really with how a little bit of mild criticism of the first half performance against Senegal has suddenly become like me putting a decade of very carefully crafted professional credibility on the line. And look, I think worst of all, they've got Paraguay next and I expect that they'll totally marmalise them. And then I'm back in here next week telling you all how I think maybe Morocco could cause them a few problems. But it's getting harder and harder, to be honest. Last night, that performance was absolutely undeniable, irresistible. They've been the best team at the tournament. I think we can say that for certain now. Even I can say that that's going for me.
- [06:15]
Emma Payton
Okay?
- [06:16]
Karl Anker
And all I would say is that. Kylian, Michael, Usmane, Bradley, I need you to chill out, lads, okay? Call off the dogs. I'm already dead.
- [06:26]
Emma Payton
I'm already looking forward to you back in here next week. I mean, you're both talking about that forward line, which is just frightening. The fact that Mbappe is Now on to 18 goals from 18 World cup games is just astonishing. But all their stars have shown up. You've both touched on the fact that Elise is just mesmerizing to watch. Barker comes in for due yesterday, he gets a goal. They're just incredible going forward, but they're working so well together, which maybe a couple of years ago at the Euros, they weren't.
- [06:51]
Mark Critchley
Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you take this Didier Deschamps run in charge of France. So You've got the 2014 World Cup. They lose to Germany and that was very much like a. Ah, they'll be back. That's a very young team. 2016 home Euros, they lose to Portugal and there was a lot of criticism against Deschamps. Then Deschamps sort of brings in a little bit more control. They win World cup in 2018 and you're like, ah, they're not fun to watch, but they figured it out, then you get the next Euros. And so I suppose the fun thing is this is an amazing France team that looks entirely all conquering, but they can't quite figure out Euros. So that's fun. It's really fun. That Kylian Mbappe is very clearly one of the best football players in the world, but he's still not won a Champions League. And he's not really done anything at Euros either. He's got the Thomas Miller gene where he's amazing at World Cups, not good at Euros. Matt Slater wrote this great piece after Germany's elimination to Paraguay where he said, if you're under the age of 25, you're like, well, it's Germany, what's the big deal? If you are under the age of 25, you've probably only ever known good, reliable juggernaut France instead of the highly erratic, prone to inconsistency and implosions version of France. And I think that speaks to Diere Deschamps credit. He has been underwritten by some people for a while and there's been this long conversation from at least 2020, which is like, when is Deschamps going to step down and Zinedine Zidane are going to take over? So this is his last tournament. The expectation is Zidane will take over afterwards. But now you've got almost this. Not even almost. This is the culmination of all of Deschamps work in charge of France.
- [08:25]
Karl Anker
Yeah. You're saying about the stodgy, pragmatic France that everyone will know if you born in the last 10, 15 years or whatever. But this is very different. At the same time, we should say, I mean, some of the things they were pulling off last night, the Elise Scissor bicycle kick that hit the park, he scored that. I mean, I mean, it's absurd and to say nothing of this, passes for Barclay, three nutmeg passes and then the third. The third is just like a magisterial goal. I mean, the understanding, the intuition, they're all on one wavelength. And to be honest, that was the big question coming into the tournament, was like, I, okay, you've got these, these four players, you've got. Actually you've got five or six or seven that you've got to try and put in that front line. But are they going to be in the positions that they're used to at club level? Are they going to have that understanding together? Is that going to work ultimately, because that's such a departure from the France that we know as well. Deschamps has absolutely done that. He's absolutely got the best out of them. And I don't think that. Yeah, even I. Even I have to admit that. Even I have to admit that you
- [09:23]
Felipe Cardenas
bring up the mix.
- [09:24]
Adam Crafton
3, 0 up.
- [09:24]
Karl Anker
Yeah.
- [09:25]
Mark Critchley
And then they brought on Ryan Turki.
- [09:27]
Karl Anker
Yeah.
- [09:27]
Mark Critchley
Imagine, like, imagine being a Swedish player just being stood there and you turn around, it's like, oh, they're bringing on Turki. Oh, for the long.
- [09:32]
Karl Anker
Oh, and it's doing next.
- [09:33]
Mark Critchley
Oh, God, yeah.
- [09:34]
Emma Payton
There are some pictures, aren't there, of Ryan Turki afterwards, seemingly sort of not really speaking too much to Didier Deschamps, but it's so tough for him to try and fit everyone in.
- [09:45]
Mark Critchley
Yeah, it's. It's really, really well balanced now. And I think that first half against Senegal, I'm gonna get behind me. Critch. I can understand why you watch that first half against Senegal and go, this is a bit weird because particularly in that game, in the opening 45 minutes, all the players want to come short to get the ball. And then that's when one of Deschamps's more overlooked traits come to the fore in that he makes tweaks and it became, at least I move into the 10. It was more of a clearer instruction for Dembele to hold width on the right hand side if there was more. More freedom for Mbappe to run in behind. And now it's clicked. And I think when you've got a talent pool this deep, this many and this many players and this many tools, and the fact that Deschamps now is doing some things that we give a lot of credit to Carlo Ancelotti for, quite frankly, they do look unstoppable. I think back to Euro 2016 and everyone went, how on earth do you blow a home Euros? Deschamps has to go. And it seems like Deschamps just basically went, never again. I've learned all the correct lessons now. So, yeah, they're an international footballing juggernaut
- [10:49]
Karl Anker
and it was lovely to see them celebrate with them as well for Mbappe's first goal, where they all go over just for a really nice moment right.
- [10:55]
Emma Payton
Elsewhere, Mexico have set up that possible Round of 16 tie with England at the Azteca. There were incredible scenes in Mexico City and there to see it was the athletics. Felipe Cardenas.
- [11:07]
Felipe Cardenas
It was bedlam inside the Estadia Azteca from the first minute as Mexico came out and just completely, completely devoured Ecuador. And what a moment for Mexico. I Mean, this is one of the loudest stadiums in the world, and I think when they are behind their national team, it is one of the most intimidating grounds in international football. Everyone here is waiting for England to defeat Dr. Congo and come to Mexico City for what would be one of the most anticipated round of 16 games in recent World cup history. My last seen image from this game here in Mexico City was just how loud it was, how frantic the fans were after the first goal, the party atmosphere from the very beginning, and how defeated and deflated Ecuador were from the first goal from Julian Quinones, which is an absolute go lasso for Mexico. So Mexico is through their first knockout win since 1986, the last time that they hosted the World Cup. They can start dreaming about a historic run.
- [12:17]
Emma Payton
I mean, some prospect if England do
- [12:19]
Karl Anker
make it through, a huge prospect. I was talking yesterday about just how scary I actually find that potential round of 16 game against either of these opponents and Mexico. To be honest, I was sort of fancy in Ecuador yesterday just because of how defensively solid they are. But Mexico have gone and done that to a side who they've not conceded twice in more than two years, scored two goals against them, and I think it's, you know, home advantage. Obviously, we all know it's a big thing. We all know it's a big thing at a World cup for a host nation, but I think even more so if you're an iconic venue like the Azteca. I hate the phrase, but a cathedral of football. If there is a cathedral of football, this is it. It's a hugely intimidating prospect. I think that plays which should be hosting the final. But that's maybe another conversation. I think that elevates what is, you know, not a perfect Mexico team to just real intimidating opposition. The altitude as well, is a huge factor. They are a serious prospect for whoever faces them in the next round, whether that is England or the Argano.
- [13:17]
Emma Payton
And we can't move on without a mention for Norway. And Erling Haaland. He's now on five goals, just one behind Kylian Mbappe and Lionel Messi for the tournament. It was one of those games last night, Karl, that we've seen time and time again where it feels like Haaland isn't having too much of an impact. He's not having too much of the ball, but all he needs is one opportunity, and more often than not, he's in the right place at the right time.
- [13:36]
Mark Critchley
He is. What's his problem? Why is he.
- [13:40]
Emma Payton
Why is he like this?
- [13:41]
Karl Anker
Why is he so good?
- [13:41]
Mark Critchley
At this, it's just unnecessary. I really, really enjoyed Ivory Coast. Norway styles make fights and I really enjoy the counter attacking between both teams. There was when Norway went a goal up, there were two or three times where you see Odegaard bombing forward and he couldn't quite get the counter attacking pass correct and you could see Ivory coast players going, we have to. If we, we need to score now, we need to get this done. So sorted. I was a bit confused as to why Faye waited an hour to bring on Amagialo and then Adam Agiallo scored, to my mind, top 10 goals of the tournament so far.
- [14:13]
Karl Anker
Top five easily. I think on commentary they were saying it was the best one and I was like, I don't know if it's quite in that conversation, but top five excellent.
- [14:20]
Mark Critchley
A word on the commentary. Danny Murphy, I feel sorry about your cat.
- [14:23]
Emma Payton
Yeah, Bob. Oh, bless him.
- [14:25]
Karl Anker
Yeah, bless him.
- [14:26]
Mark Critchley
But tremendous game. Ivory coast defended Haaland quite well in loads of phases. I think the two or three times where crosses are coming on the box and you can see both of Ivory coast center backs were basically touch tight or indeed inside Haaland's shirt to make sure he couldn't quite get contact to the ball. But this thing we talk about natural goal scorers and such a thing, I don't think such a thing exists because if you are a center forward, you would have tried making these runs and tried making these headers over and over and over and over again and it's just countless repetition. And Haaland, like Cristiano Ronaldo and other great strikers are very, very honest about showing you how hard they work and how many times they make the run. And I think the thing about Haaland that is brilliant about him is even if he does get discouraged in the first half, he doesn't stop making the runs. So yeah, brilliant football player, scored against the team with players that I really like. So I was a bit annoyed. But yeah, all the best to him.
- [15:17]
Emma Payton
So Norway setting up a last 16 tie with Brazil already cannot wait for that. Foreign
- [15:27]
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- [16:33]
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- [17:11]
Emma Payton
Now to our discussion of the day feature sponsored by Threads. Now, last night we asked our Threads followers for their first World cup memories. So we're going to come onto those very shortly. But first, I'll pose that question to both of you here in the studio. What is your first World cup memory?
- [17:28]
Karl Anker
Mine is England versus Tunisia, World Cup 98 in Marseille. I was in year two in primary school, which was separate. I don't know if this happened at your primary school. Separated into infants and juniors, where if you're in year two, you're in the infants and you're in year three, you're in the juniors. The juniors.
- [17:43]
Mark Critchley
The juniors are the same thing.
- [17:45]
Karl Anker
Yeah.
- [17:45]
Emma Payton
Yep.
- [17:46]
Karl Anker
The juniors were allowed to watch the game in the school hall. I was the only person in year two who was trusted to go into the hall and come back and give score updates.
- [17:55]
Emma Payton
Why you?
- [17:57]
Karl Anker
I don't actually know.
- [17:58]
Mark Critchley
Because they knew you were gonna be a journalist.
- [17:59]
Karl Anker
This is it. I think this was the day so you that I realised I was born to be a football reporter. So you've got Mrs. Brooks to thank or blame.
- [18:09]
Emma Payton
What's your memory? Is it similar?
- [18:10]
Mark Critchley
It's similar. So Mrs. Hazlehurst let us listen to this game on the radio and I remember us, we were all cheering when Paul Scholes scored a header. But in terms of watching the game, I was allowed to watch the first half of all these matches, but I got sent to bed. So I remember watching the first half of England, Romania going, where's Michael Owen? Michael Owen is the greatest football player of all time. Because I was the exact same age as Critch. So the first time I got to watch Michael Owen properly at this World cup was against Argentina. My mum was doing some sort of event. So we watched the game in the kitchen on like a tiny TV on top of the fridge. And yeah, watching Michael Owens score that goal next to my dad going, oh, this is amazing. So, yeah, watching the formative memories. Amazing.
- [18:53]
Emma Payton
Yeah, brilliant memories there and just amazing that you can both remember names of your teachers. Oh, yeah, that had a big impact on both of you. It's good to hear just some of your responses on Threads. Then let's have a look at those. Michael Kelly has said, Brazil 1966 at Goodison park, age 12 and I still support them now.
- [19:11]
Karl Anker
That's cool.
- [19:11]
Emma Payton
Imagine seeing Pele at Goodison Park.
- [19:13]
Karl Anker
It's wild.
- [19:14]
Emma Payton
Wow. A couple more as well. John Shannon has posted. Watching Brazil, England in the 2002 quarter finals. I was in primary school and our teacher sat us in the assembly hall and let us watch instead of having lessons. Those were the days the telling you
- [19:28]
Karl Anker
that something we in on the little did the government just hand them out
- [19:33]
Emma Payton
what's going on for every four years. Yeah, overwhelming response this one as well. Eric has said hand of God, which I feel like many people got in touch saying that. So some brilliant responses there for your first World cup memories for your chance to be featured in the next discussion of the day feature, head over to Threads and follow Heathletic FC and join the conversation there. Okay, well, yesterday on the show we got stuck into the latest moves in the transfer market, which is certainly hotting up. And since then our football correspondent David Ornstein has been breaking even more news, which is what he does, isn't it? So on that, let's get to David.
- [20:13]
David Ornstein
Hi, guys. I've moved from New York to a sweltering Atlanta, birthplace of Coca Cola and host to England in the last 32 of the World cup against Dr. Congo. Talking of temperatures, the transfer market is really hotting up with the massive exclusive news brought to you by the Athletic that Tottenham Hotspur have won the race to sign Mattius Fernandez from West Ham United. Ultimately, they were the highest bidder, £85 million guaranteed transfer fee. The player decided he wanted to join spurs and they're now in the process of wrapping it all up. Manchester United were also pushing hard. They wanted to bring in Fernandez and it seemed that that was the direction of travel. However, in the end, United were not willing to go to the level of finance it would take to get it over the line. That's part of a new, more disciplined and prudent approach at Old Trafford, which we saw to positive effect last summer. They have a limit evaluation that they're prepared to go to. Beyond that they won't. And also they want players who are desperate to join them, which proved not to be the case with Fernandez. They'll go back to the drawing board, lick their wounds and consider other options. Tottenham, meanwhile, will be absolutely delighted. A player of such quality and potential. 21 years old Portugal international. Yes, he has suffered two back to back relegations with Southampton and West Ham and he'll be joining a club who nearly went down themselves last season. The spurs are determined to be upwardly mobile under Roberto de Zerbi, who's at the heart of all of this transfer activity. Meanwhile, West Ham always said they wanted £85 million and that's exactly what they've got. So it's a remarkable story. Pretty early in the market still, goodness knows what is to come after this. We'll bring it all to you on the Athletic and for now I'm a bit hot, so I'm gonna go for a Coca Cola. Other soft drinks are available.
- [22:17]
Karl Anker
He brought it back.
- [22:19]
Emma Payton
Wow. Big Coca Cola fan, it seems. David Ornstein, if you are listening and not watching, he did start talking to us by a Coca Cola sign. So I think that's the loose thread there. I said we were going to come back to this. You know, David talking there about Matthias Fernandez being on Manchester United's radar, saying that they were pushing for him as well. Spurs of have usurped them the fact that they're paying 85 million. As Manchester United writers, what's your view on what's unfolded?
- [22:45]
Mark Critchley
85 million guarantees in June, that's going to have a big impact on the rest of the summer transfer window. I think if anyone's trying to buy quote unquote, prem proven potential midfielders now, any selling club will go, well, Elliot Anderson's gone for 116, Matthias Fernandez has gone for 85. Our asking price is now 5, 10, 15 million more. So that's going to be very, very spicy as far as I understand it. And critic, please correct me if I'm wrong. United did want Matheus Fernandes, but it wasn't necessarily as their number one, a defensive midfielder, sort of the casemiro successor, but perhaps more as the Kobe Mainu alternative, this person to play instead of Mainoo. So I think the price point United initially had was closer to maybe 60 million or perhaps even lower than that. So the fact that West Ham have done this number so high and the wage also seems quite high as well, it's probably led Manchester United to walk away from the table. This is a time when under Ineos United want to get the wage bill down as well, among other things. So look, I think Matthias Fernandez is a very, very good football player and he will be worth 85 million eventually, but 85 million right now. And by all accounts he looks to be Tottenham will be Tottenham's highest paid player, or at least in a similar realm to Conor Gallagher, who is on, I believe £200,000 a week as well. Nice, but a little bit too rich for my blood.
- [24:06]
Karl Anker
Like. Like, as David said and we said on this podcast last week, I think the price point was always going to be the key point and whoever met that was going to get the advantage. I think from United's perspective, this idea of wanting players who want to join the club has been a key thing over the last year and has helped them really when they've been in competition for other players, like last summer in the cases of both Mbumo, Cunha and Chesko. To be fair as well, this was something that helped them gain an advantage over rivals who sometimes were willing to pay a bit more. And even then in those circumstances, though, you think of the Mbumo deal and how long that took to get across the line. There was a. A lot of penny pinching, or penny pinching probably isn't the word. But a disciplined approach I think is fairer to say they still would only pay what they thought the player was worth. And that has been very much the mood music that's been coming out of United over a while now. Omar Berarda did an interview with a guy called Andy Mitten. I'm not sure who he is, but where he said earlier this month, we have to be really disciplined. It's simple. We have a plan, we know what we can invest and what we have to, and we have to stick to that. It's very important that you don't let the market or agents dictate what we should be doing now. He said that nearly a month ago. I think we've seen that approach in action over this transfer saga. It will be judged ultimately on results, but I think it will also be judged on what's next, because you can walk away from the table, fair enough. But these holes that United have in midfield still need to be filled at some point. And fans will forget about Matthias Fernandes if they've got a nice shiny Aurelien Tchouameni or somebody, for example. But if those positions aren't filled, then there's going to be more scrutiny on that kind of disciplined approach. Absolutely.
- [25:40]
Emma Payton
Come back to United in just a sec. But just another word on spurs who are bringing in Fernandez. Does this show how serious they are? Because under Roberto De Zerbi this summer, they're making a number of signings. The likes of Van Hecker, Senesi. Andy Robertson has been brought in. Links to Tonali. Now we've got Fernandez, but they're also. It feels like they're willing to pay big to try and sort things out this summer.
- [26:01]
Mark Critchley
Absolutely. Look, I'd be really interested to know what Nino Espirito Santo or Antonio Conte is thinking, or indeed Thomas Frank is thinking now, going, oh, you give him all the money. Cheers, mate. I'm going to be really cynical here. It feels like spurs now have come to the conclusion that whatever approach they had previously wasn't working and now they are going to spend them a lot of money to get out of the hole and they're going to build everything around what De Zerbi wants, which if De Zerbi stays, two thumbs up, that's a good idea. But De Zerbi is such a combustible figure that there is part of me wondering if this might not all quickly unravel if he decides. Actually, if something happens in the way that De Zerbi has had complaints in the past. So Brighton appeared to have a very good working relationship with the Zerby and then it got to a point where the Zerby had some success and they went, well, I want more autonomy, give me some more money. And then Brighton said no. And then, well, indeed, Brighton gave more autonomy and spent more money on the Fabian Herzla. Marseille seemed to be in a position where they gave De Zerbi a bit of autonomy and gave him money and then a disagreement happened and then he left. So I think everything sounds good now. And I'm looking at this spurs team, I'm looking at the players they're signing and, yeah, they're going out there and they're looking to address two or three problems that were painfully obvious last season, that really boring horseshoe football that was happening on the Thomas Frank hopefully won't be there because Matthias Fernandez is a better progressive passer, Conor Gallagher is a decent football player and I think Bentoncourt will look better, hopefully and what De Zerbi wants. So I don't expect them to finish in the bottom half next season. I expect them to finish much closer to. For now, I say the Europa League places, so things are looking good. But there is this horrible feeling in the back of my mind going, well, what happens if De Zerbi gets. Forgive me for the gesture I'm out to make spiky.
- [28:00]
Emma Payton
Please do go and check that on YouTube. If you are listening before we move on, then you've both sort of touched on other potential, maybe midfield options. Where are Manchester United going to look now and how much, well, impact does that Manuel Agarte injury have on how things are looking this summer in terms of what they want to bring in?
- [28:16]
Karl Anker
Yeah, look, I think to take Agarte first, I think the plan was always to sell him this summer. That can't happen anymore, realistically, given the severity of his injury. That is a blow financially, I suppose. But it still doesn't change the fact that you need to fill those midfield spots that I was talking about before. If anything, it exacerbates the issue. Right, because you haven't got an option there that you had on the books. It's quite a complex picture. I think United always wanted three midfielders this summer. They wanted different profiles. Among those midfielders, as Carlos touched on, you've got one agreed in Edison, he still needs to do his medical still to be completed. But what's your makeup of the other two is the question I would suggest if you're flipping from Matthias Fernandez into Aureli and Tchouameni, they're very different players, but maybe you actually need both of those profiles and that's the issue. And then all of these targets that we're talking about, they're all in a very similar price range. And so then it becomes a question of resources and allocation of resources. But you don't want me to drone on about that. You want names, don't you?
- [29:13]
Emma Payton
Yes, we do, yeah. Keep them coming, please.
- [29:15]
Mark Critchley
This is a man who doesn't want to be clipped up for social.
- [29:18]
Karl Anker
Well, here we go. So I think Alex Scott is one that United are definitely interested in. There's been contact there. Bournemouth absolutely don't want to sell, as we've mentioned before. I think as you were talking about before, Carly's maybe a bit more of a similar profile to Fernandez and Mainoo rather than the casemiro replacement. But that's a name. Felix Dimitra. Borussia Dortmund is a name that's been put to me. I know that there's been contact there from United and inquiries made, so that's a potential one as well. But again, I think asking price on that could be quite steep. Tchouameni. As I said before, Tonali, there's long standing appreciation of Carlos Bilaba. There's a lot of names and that should be some balm of comfort to United fans, because there are options out there. And I think that Ineos and the recruitment department that's been in place for the last year properly has a lot of credit in the bank, given how well last summer went, to be honest. And so I think we're still early in the window and I think it's only fair to show a bit of patience in that regard. But business absolutely needs to be done and it's going to be done in a market that United don't control. You're seeing these fees rise and asking prices rise. It's a difficult market to do business in. But United need to do business and that's their challenge.
- [30:29]
Emma Payton
And Carl, you contributed to a piece titled what World cup player should your team sign over on the Athletic, and you've suggested an alternative for Manchester United.
- [30:39]
Mark Critchley
Yes. Christ Ine Ulahi at Ivory coast and Chabson Sport, who diminutive, under six foot, but very, very good. Very mobile. Very good ball winner. I'll put it to you this way, he's a football player. I can imagine brighton selling for 70 million two years from now. So if we're talking about the constrained financial market and the fact that every player now seems to come with a 50, 60 million minimum price tag, Ulahi could be the next big thing before he's the next big thing, if that makes sense. Forgive me for the tortured metaphor. I'm going here, Manchester United, to buy three midfielders. I'm going Christmas shopping for my good buddy Critch, right? So I need to buy him a really big Christmas present. I'm going to get him a brand new games console, I'm going to buy him a nice pair of shoes and then I'm going to try and buy him, I don't know, let's say a Nando's voucher. And I'd say Man United have bought their Nando's voucher, which is Edison. They're trying to get the nice, comfy pair of shoes which was meant to be Matthias Fernandez, but then they went, oh, no, Actually the pair of shoes is like way more expensive so now you know. So United have their Nano's card but they haven't got their shoes and now we've got a games console so Tuameni Games Console Alex Scott Pair of shoes
- [31:50]
Karl Anker
okay, when am I getting my PS5?
- [31:53]
Mark Critchley
Have you seen how expensive they are?
- [32:00]
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- [34:26]
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- [34:53]
Emma Payton
Okay, it is time for today's quiz on day 21. Diego Maradona made 21 World cup appearances for Argentina, but do you know how many World cup goals he scored?
- [35:07]
Karl Anker
Eight. Seriously?
- [35:10]
Mark Critchley
You're joking?
- [35:12]
Karl Anker
Come on. I didn't think it was double figures. He's not been in the charts.
- [35:17]
Emma Payton
That was pretty incredible. Felt right just coming in hot with eight. Yeah, five actually came during the 1986 campaign when Argentina won, of course. But yeah, eight. Critch. Wow. Okay, before we go today, three more round of 32 ties to come. England, of course, played Dr. Congo in the day's first match. We're going to have plenty of reaction to that tomorrow. Then it is Belgium versus Senegal, before, of course, the USA played Bosnia and Herzegovina. Joining us ahead of that one in San Francisco is the athletics, Henry Bushnell. Henry, first of all, I want to start with what is the mood like in the camp at the moment ahead of this one, especially given the fact that Mauricio Pochettino, it seemed, wasn't really too pleased with the reaction to that final group game defeat to Turkey.
- [36:05]
Henry Bushnell
Yeah, I don't think there's any lingering effects from that Turkey loss whatsoever, other than Austin trustee's ankle injury. But we wouldn't expect him to start anyway. I know Pochettino's press conference was weirdly combative and. And grumpy, even. But that wasn't the mood, the broader mood in camp at all. And isn't the mood right now? The players are loose. They're focused, of course, but. But they're loose. And I think in a way, the mood is very similar to what it was during the group stage, which is, I think, exactly where you would want it to be. You don't want the moment feeling bigger than it is or too big so the players know it's Win or go home at this point and they're ready for that.
- [36:40]
Emma Payton
Positive vibes then it seems, of course, we know that Christian Pulisic returned from the bench for that Turkey game. How much the US Hopes of progressing through the tournament really depend on his fitness.
- [36:51]
Henry Bushnell
Yeah, I think that question requires a bit of a nuanced answer because this team definitely is more than just Christian Pulisic. You could argue that Weston McKenney is actually a more impactful player at this point and was one of the best players in the World cup group stage, even though he didn't attract a lot of headlines because he didn't actually score a goal or get an assist. But yes, Pulisic, you know, he does bring a level of quality in the final third that is different from what anybody else on this US Team brings. And that is definitely going to be necessary. Maybe not against Bosnia or maybe against Bosnia, but definitely in the later rounds is when this team will absolutely need Pulisic. And to be clear, he is fit. Like this was a minor injury. He probably could have played against Australia if it was a knockout game. He probably could have started it against Turkey if it was consequential at all. He just said, he just told me on Tuesday that he felt really good when he came off the bench for about 35 minutes against Turkey and he said he's ready to go 90 or even 120 minutes against Bosnia.
- [37:48]
Emma Payton
Okay, certainly good news then. One thing I do want to ask you about as well, Henry, is a piece that you've done ahead of this game with Bosnia. You've written about the USA's 10 game losing run against European sides. Why is it that they have struggled so much? And I guess the question is how do they change that then tonight?
- [38:03]
Henry Bushnell
Yeah, the stat is admittedly a bit fluky. And look, part of the issue is that because of the Nations League, they actually don't play European teams all that much anymore. So it's been very irregular. You know, you could say that maybe part of the issue is that they aren't familiar with some of these top European leagues, even though the players on an individual level are because they play for top European clubs. But I think the crux of the answer is just that a lot of these European teams that they play are really good. You know, it's a lot of this streak has been Portugal, Germany, Belgium going back to the Netherlands at the 2022 World Cup. And even, you know, Switzerland has a lot of quality in its team too. That's one of the teams they played and Then, you know, Turkey is also a good example in that they're good. And, and also the two times in this span that the US has played Turkey, it's been a reserve team. So we're not all talking about a team games here. The other answer to this question is Bosnia is not at that level, Right. So I think they have a decent chance to beat Bosnia. If they play as they should and have been playing counter, pressing really intensely, moving the ball quickly to stretch this low block side to side, I think they'll be fine against Bosnia. But then it's really, when we get into the later rounds that this losing streak against top 10 European teams, they haven't beaten a top 10 European team in over a decade. And so that's, you know, when we get to the round of 16, maybe, or at least the quarterfinals, we'll probably start talking about that.
- [39:32]
Emma Payton
Well, talking about looking ahead then, just, just before you go. Now that we're into the knockouts, I feel like everyone, including ours, have been obsessing over the different brackets of the draw. How kind do you think the path looks for the usa and how much is optimism growing for what they can do?
- [39:49]
Henry Bushnell
I think the path to the quarterfinal looks very kind, and I think that's what a lot of US fans have been looking at and feeling optimistic about. Because, look, Bosnia is, yes, they could present some challenges, but they're one of the lowest ranked teams in the round of 32. And I think the US has a very good chance to win this game. Then you go to either Belgium or Senegal. And Even though the US lost to Belgium 5 to 2 back in March, Belgium has not looked good at this World Cup. They haven't looked threatening in attack. They don't really have a striker. So I actually think the US on home soil with all this momentum would probably go into that game as a favorite, no matter who they play. But then you get to probably Spain or Portugal in the quarterfinal and potentially France in the semifinal, and then you're talking about teams that are significantly above the US's level and anything. So anything beyond the quarterfinal would be. Would be a massive upset. But that doesn't mean, you know this, the country isn't going to be irrationally optimistic and the team isn't going to believe that they can, they can do it.
- [40:50]
Emma Payton
I'm sure the American fans will absolutely believe they can do it. A big thanks to Henry and, yeah, very much looking forward to that game. Critch, how significant could a run to the quarterfinals be for the usa?
- [41:00]
Karl Anker
Hugely significant, I think. I Get a little bit bored of the conversation that we always seem to have. Like, does the US Care about football? Yeah, I think it's pretty clear that they do. We see over here the amount of interest that there is in the Premier League from US Fans. We see the amount of American owners that are in the Premier League and the wider European football as well. So I think it's made that cut across. That being said, I do think that major international tournaments have this sort of unifying effect on a country at times that perhaps they haven't experienced. It's a very different culture, the. The US Compared to out in this country and in Europe. It's a bit more of a diverse culture, I suppose we. More monocultural over here. We have. We all watch the BBC, for example, and they all have cable network channel 7, whatever, you know, so you don't get that same sense of a shared narrative sometimes. But I think if they do manage to go on that run, just that swell of optimism and the idea that they're on a journey and there's progress, I think can carry a lot and do a lot of work. The bracket. Yeah, it could be a lot. I'm even calling it the bracket. I'm even calling it the brackets. I got the getting into my brain here. Right. But brainwashed. The bracket is. It could be a lot worse. It could be a lot worse. I think as. As Henry said there, like Bosnia, I think they're probably one of the weaker European teams in this. In this tournament. They've come out of a weak group with a. With a negative goal difference, in third place. So I think they're there to be taken. Belgium, Senegal. Yeah, I think US have been more impressive than both of those so far, to be honest. And Spain in the quarter final, we'll see. But, yeah, it could absolutely be a huge, huge catalyst. And I think that's what they want, what they need.
- [42:37]
Emma Payton
Just before we go, then, Karl, yesterday on this podcast, we spoke about Germany and the Netherlands being knocked out. We saw last night Ivory coast giving Norway a really tough test. Are we seeing this shift away from this European dominance of international football? And how do you feel that that could be tested across all of these games that we're going to see this evening?
- [42:55]
Mark Critchley
Yeah, I think. I think that's a good point. I think this World cup, the expansion of the 48 teams, what you are seeing is the gap between the sort of historically large nations and the relative newcomers to World cup footballs got smaller and smaller and smaller. There's a bunch of reasons for that there's just improvements in coaching, scouting, everything there. I think the changing in FIFA rules that makes it easier for players of dual heritage or mixed heritage to play for different nations also helps. So there are fewer players who perhaps have France under 19 on the 21 caps just being locked out of playing international football. They're now able to play for Morocco or Tunisia or anyone else there too. And, yeah, it's been really fun. I think a good point from Henry there mentioning the Nations League, which means now international countries are almost locked into playing their own regions for a bit longer. So the World cup is a little bit more fun because where else would you see Ivory coast play Norway only at a World Cup? Where else would you see the United States play Poznan only really at a World cup, or indeed that sort of friendly. So if there is going to be a team outside of South America and Europe winning a World cup could be at this tournament. The fact that it was nine African teams that got out of the group stages, out of 10. So this is Africa's most successful World cup ever. And I'm old enough to remember when Africa only had sort of like two teams make it to the World cup in general. So it's been a lot of fun. It's been a lot of fun. And it's also been a lot of times when I'm rewiring my brain from the old. All the stereotypes of international football. At a friend, I call him Hope. And he makes this point about how if you are. Again, I'm going to bring up ages and generations. If you are 35 and over, there are three World cup nations that you think about all the time, which is Brazil, Italy and Germany. Italy didn't make it. Germany aren't very good anymore and Brazil getting there. But this Brazil aren't the favorites of the World Cup. Whereas now the sort of the new era of World cup football is, well, France are dominant, Netherlands are just like there. Norway are now a problem. The United States are taking things seriously, can make it to quarterfinals. Tournament on, tournament on, tournament.
- [45:02]
Emma Payton
So it's fun, isn't it?
- [45:04]
Mark Critchley
It's different. Look, there's gray in my beard. There's growing my beard now. Midfield has cost 85 million.
- [45:10]
Emma Payton
Yeah.
- [45:10]
Mark Critchley
It's a new age.
- [45:11]
Emma Payton
Yes.
- [45:11]
David Ornstein
Yeah.
- [45:12]
Emma Payton
This is what's happening. Before we go, then. Any plans for tonight to. To watch England or anyone else?
- [45:16]
Karl Anker
If I'm not on the train going back to Manchester. When England are on, then, yes, I will watch them, but I have no idea. I'm gonna. I've got a busy day.
- [45:24]
Mark Critchley
Oh yeah, we all got to get back in the Wycott prime midfielders for Man United.
- [45:28]
Emma Payton
Yes. Okay, you two get onto that. Thank you for your company today, gents. Thank you to Henry, David and Adam as well. And do remember, all of our World cup coverage is free over on the Athletic app during the tournament, so make sure you get involved and we'll see you soon.
- [45:55]
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