Germany hit new low + Ornstein transfer latest

Summary

The Athletic FC Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode: "Germany hit new low + Ornstein transfer latest"

Date: June 30, 2026
Hosts: Emma Paton, Adam Leventhal (absent), with guests Mark Critchley, Kerris Jones, and correspondents David Ornstein, Matt Slater, Jack Pitt-Brooke

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into one of the most dramatic days of the 2026 World Cup: Germany's shocking penalty defeat to Paraguay, the Netherlands' exit, Brazil's nail-biting win over Japan, and transfer news with David Ornstein. Rich with in-studio debate and on-the-ground reporting from Matt Slater and Jack Pitt-Brooke, the tone combines sharp insight with the relaxed banter of football insiders coping with late nights and high drama.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Germany’s World Cup Meltdown (00:53–11:20)

• Match Recap:

  • Germany knocked out by Paraguay on penalties after a controversial disallowed goal and several missed chances (02:11–03:32, Matt Slater report from Foxborough).
  • Germany failed to win a World Cup knockout game since their 2014 triumph.

• Analysis of Germany's Decline:

  • Mark Critchley:
    • "They looked like so much less than the sum of their parts, particularly in attack." (03:53)
    • Frustration that such talented players couldn’t break down a “disciplined block” from Paraguay.
  • On the Disallowed Goal:
    • Mark: “...which I imagine we can all agree was extremely soft.” (04:36)
    • Kerris Jones: Supported VAR’s strictness. “I'm all for it... taking a hard line on stuff like that is the direction that I think a lot of us want the game to go in...” (04:40–05:38)

• Deeper Structural and Psychological Issues:

  • Nagelsmann’s admission: “...we’re not part of the first class teams anymore.” (05:59)
  • Mark: Key issue is lack of attacking cohesion, other minor issues include the goalkeeper debate and Kimmich’s utility role.
  • Kerris: Noted lack of confidence and assurance. Young fans no longer connect Germany with World Cup dominance: “You probably don’t even know what people are talking about when they talk about Germany as this World cup team anymore.” (07:08)

• Penalty Shootout Fallout:

  • First-ever World Cup penalty shootout defeat for Germany after years of dominance. “That streak... broke when Kai Havertz's first pen was saved.” (02:11)
  • Mark: Emphasizes the shift—it's a “confidence” issue. “Psychology is the crux of a penalty shootout ... as soon as Havertz misses that first penalty, it felt like their resolve might... crumble.” (08:32)
  • Kerris: “Three match point misses... can’t remember the last time I saw something like that.” (09:00)

• What Now for Germany?

  • Nagelsmann says he won’t resign—leaves decision to federation. Unpopular and facing calls for change, but sacking is unattractive given recent instability. (09:12–09:56)
  • Klopp rumours: Discussion of his relationship with Nagelsmann and media, ongoing tension, but consensus in-studio is Klopp looks happier away from management. (10:04–11:16)
  • Mark: “Is the immediate prevailing narrative just going to be like, ‘Well, you’re not Jurgen Klopp’?” (10:50)

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Other Notable World Cup Highlights (11:17–15:37)

• Brazil v. Japan:

  • Brazil required a stoppage-time Martinelli winner. (Kerris: “If that [Vini Jr dribble] had gone in, it would’ve been one of the great individual World Cup goals.”) (11:53)
  • Japan seen as underachieving in the moment.

• Morocco v. Netherlands:

  • Another wild penalty shootout.
  • Mark: “What’s standing out to me is just that no one seems to have practiced penalties...” (13:00)
  • Highlights the unusually high number of misses: “Five misses out of 12 in the Germany game and then five out of ten in Netherlands, Morocco...” (13:13)

• European Struggles vs. Other Confederations:

  • “Spain’s win over Uruguay is the only European win in seven games against South American countries.” (13:57)
  • Africa’s rise noted: “With this expansion... nations from outside Europe and South America sort of raised their game...” (14:18–15:03)

• On Rankings and England:

  • Emma teases Critchley about his ever-changing tournament rankings, now reluctantly moving France to #1. (15:03–15:35)

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Transfer Window – Ornstein’s Updates (17:27–31:21)

• Chelsea’s Pursuit of Granit Xhaka from Sunderland:

  • Chelsea made an £8m bid, rejected by Sunderland, who see Xhaka as vital. (17:52)
  • Ornstein: “Xhaka is a top target for Xabi Alonso... Sunderland say they have no intention of selling at any price.” (17:52)
  • Mark: Siding with Sunderland’s stance, values Xhaka’s experience and highlights Chelsea’s need for “more Premier League ready players.” (20:01)

• Manchester City’s Business Under Maresca:

  • Secured Elliot Anderson for £116m, focus remains on midfield, remain admirers of Sandro Tonali, eyeing right back options, and depth at goalkeeper. (22:06)
  • Ornstein: “City…the most sophisticated recruitment operations… they’ll be exploring their options in multiple positions...” (22:06–23:44)

• Chelsea Statement on Maresca Departure:

  • Chelsea made public their disappointment with Maresca; statement characterized by not naming him, referencing "another club" and contrasting with new manager Alonso’s “integrity.”
  • Mark: “They give him full, like, Voldemort treatment... it was fascinating to see because that departure feels like about 17 years ago.” (24:04–25:36)
  • Kerris: Thinks £17m compensation is a good deal but expects the tension to simmer: “the cattiness of that statement...I think we're all looking forward to [City vs. Chelsea].” (26:17)

• Arsenal’s Move for Bruno Guimarães:

  • Arsenal have tabled an under-£60m offer, Newcastle don’t want to sell, player reportedly happy but move would appeal. (27:21)
  • Ornstein: “He won’t be the only option Arsenal are looking at for that midfield area... Arsenal are looking for a number six, number eight to add strength.” (27:21–29:14)
  • Kerris: Expresses sympathy and frustration for Newcastle fans coping with big departures and erratic transfer policy: “Welcome to the layer cake, son. This is the food chain.” (29:21)
  • Mark: Questions direction and strategy at Newcastle.

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England Outlook: Knockouts Begin (38:26–46:35)

• England Squad/Lineup Outlook vs. Dr. Congo:

  • Jack Pitt-Brooke (live from Kansas): “Mood here is pretty good... group stage is just about getting through... real work starts in the knockouts.” (38:38)
  • Full-back conundrum: injuries and selection dilemmas, debate on whether Saka or Rashford should start. (38:38–41:45)
  • Kerris: “For me... the big concern was just how vulnerable we looked against counterattacks... I think you play Spence [at right back] in this game.” (40:28)

• Team Balance and Attacking Options:

  • Mark: “The key is complicating it as little as possible and having a fullback at full back... Neither [Madueke nor Saka] have really convinced me so far, which I think is a concern.” (41:55)

• Standout Players:

  • Mark: “Jude Bellingham has really kind of justified...he's showing why he's made that spot his... he can be England's moments player.” (43:48)

• Tournament Path & Predictions:

  • England’s potential route: Dr. Congo, then Mexico or Ecuador at altitude, possible Brazil/Norway QF, Argentina/Colombia SF, France/Spain in final. (44:21)
  • Kerris: “If they get past the round of 16, they're going to win it.” (46:00)
  • Mark: “If they get to the semi final and play Argentina, that could be the end of the road.” (46:06)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Matt Slater (from Boston, 02:11):
  “The latest German World Cup horror show... They have not won a knockout game at the World Cup since the 2014 World Cup final. That is quite a thing for an Englishman to say.”

• Mark Critchley (03:53):
  “They looked like so much less than the sum of their parts, particularly in attack.”

• Kerris Jones (04:40):
  “I'm all for it, to be honest. ... We don’t want football to become the sort of set piece, slugfest, meat wall wrestling, Royal Rumble that we’ve seen over the last 12 months.”

• Nagelsmann via Mark (05:59):
  “This means we’re not part of the first class teams anymore.”

• Kerris Jones (07:08):
  “If you are Gen Alpha or whatever, you probably don’t even know what people are talking about when they talk about Germany as this World cup team anymore.”

• Ornstein (17:52):
  “They see [Xhaka] as a key player, captain and leading them into Europe next season. They say they have no intention of selling him at any price…”

• Kerris Jones (26:17):
  “The cattiness of that statement… I think we're all looking forward to [City-Chelsea].”

• Jack Pitt-Brooke (38:38):
  “Harry Kane has spoken to us in the past about how he really divides the World Cup into two parts ... but the real work starts in the knockouts.”

• Kerris Jones (44:57):
  “If it's France in the final, they absolutely smash them because France aren't all that.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:39–11:20 – Germany’s defeat, tactical/mental post-mortem, legacy
• 11:17–15:37 – Brazil v Japan, Morocco v Netherlands, penalty narratives, Europe’s struggles
• 17:27–31:21 – Transfer news, Xhaka to Chelsea saga, City focus, Chelsea/Maresca fallout, Arsenal’s midfield search
• 38:26–46:35 – England squad positional debate, knockout round outlook, tournament predictions

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In Closing

The episode is a fast-moving blend of post-mortem (for Germany and some European powers), live debate on England’s readiness for the knockouts, and the latest on big transfer moves in the Premier League. The panel’s banter and frankness (“meat wall wrestling,” “full Voldemort treatment”) keep even the most intense topics accessible and lively.
Recommended for: Anyone needing an inside-out review of a tumultuous World Cup day—whether for office banter, tactical reflection, or the latest on the transfer merry-go-round.

Transcript

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[David Ornstein]

The Athletic FC

[Emma Payton]

hello and welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Emma Payton. Germany's world cup woes continue and the Netherlands are heading home as well. While Brazil needed a stoppage time winner to see off Japan. All that from the world cup and David Ornstein delivers the latest trip transfer news. Well, with me in the studio today, I've been reunited with the athletics, Mark Critchley and Keris Jones. Are we both okay?

[Mark Critchley]

We're good. Good. We're tired.

[Emma Payton]

No, I feel you.

[Mark Critchley]

Yeah.

[Kerris Jones]

Slightly chilly.

[Emma Payton]

Great. So you decide to. When it's 35 degrees outside to wear a jacket.

[Kerris Jones]

Yeah.

[Emma Payton]

And you come in today in a little polo.

[Kerris Jones]

Yeah. I don't know, I think like I must have missed some evolutionary step in. I don't know why the temperature drops and I just take a layer off. I don't know what's going on, but I don't. Being out the north, I think that's the problem.

[Emma Payton]

Right. Okay. You just.

[Mark Critchley]

You would expect you'd just be like stepping off a plane into some tropical.

[Emma Payton]

I thought we were. I know. England aren't playing today. I thought you're going to stick with the England shit. I thought it would become sort of your personality.

[Kerris Jones]

No, that is not my personality whatsoever. I was absolutely mortified and I've actually just scrolled past all the clips of me in that.

[Emma Payton]

That's not happening again, you know.

[Kerris Jones]

No, I don't think they did.

[Emma Payton]

Mark Critchley fans out there, I think

[Kerris Jones]

they got taught a lesson. It's not happening.

[Emma Payton]

Okay. Before we're not going to sort of do a deep dive into the inner workings of Mark Critchley's mind today. There is only one place to start and that is with Germany as the four time winners were dumped out on penalties by Paraguay. We'll get to the guys in this studio but first they're in Boston to see it was the athletics, Matt Slater.

[Matt Slater]

Well, good evening from Foxborough, home of the New England patriots and the scene of the latest German World cup horshe first half not very good until Julio Inciso popped up with a lovely header to put Paraguay 10 up. Second half, Germany better. Lots of crosses, lots of pressure, lots of very stout Paraguayan. Defending Havertz. Nice cross from Wirtz. Flicks it in. Good goal. 1 1. Jonathan Tar late in the game. Thought he might have won it with a header from a corner. I thought he'd won it, to be honest. Var chalks it off. Very controversial. There will be some chat about that extra time. More of the same to penalties now. At that point everyone was thinking, yeah, I've seen this before. Germany had won four out of four World cup shootouts and had scored 15 penalties in a row. That streak, sorry, broke when Kai Havertz's first pen was saved. Volta might have missed one. That gave Paraguay two shots to win it, which they blew. Jonathan Tah, first penalty in the sudden death part blasts it over, leaving it for Canale, who'd been fantastic at the heart of Paraguay, centre of defence, to slot it home, queuing massive celebrations, Huge recriminations in the German camp. They have not won a knockout game at the World cup since the 2014 World cup final. That is quite a thing for an Englishman to say.

[Emma Payton]

Yeah, isn't it? Just quite staggering, really. Matt has also got a piece from the game over on the Athletic right now, which is titled Germany were once World cup kings. Now they're simply not that good. So take a little look at that if you haven't already. Kara feels like Germany hadn't been super convincing sort of up until this point. But I still don't think we expected to see what unfolded last night.

[Mark Critchley]

I just think they looked like so much less than the sum of their parts, particularly in attack. Like, if you look at the amount of quality that they have and of incredible players that they have, you just would have expected them to be far more clinical and far more creative and, you know, massive, massive credit to Paraguay because they were, they defended very well and they really struggled to break them down. There was a lot of also like last ditch defending. It was a very disciplined block, but it was also sort of a lot of it came down to like, last ditch tackles, last ditch blocks, which is, I think what you want to see in a World cup knockout game. But the fact that Germany were getting that close and couldn't quite break them down, I think is what will really frustrate them. They will obviously be extremely frustrated about the goal that they had disallowed, which I imagine we can all agree was extremely soft.

[Kerris Jones]

I'm all for it, to be honest. No, honestly, I'm all for it because I get it, it is soft. There's a little bit of contact there. But I think after the season we've just had where we've seen so much grappling at set pieces and we've seen these become contested pitch battles and it feels like the football is actually focused on those more than in open play and actually creating chances properly. I think a little bit of strictness from the officials on that sort of thing is, is welcomed because we don't want football to become the sort of set piece, slugfest, meat wall wrestling, Royal Rumble that we've seen over the last, over the last 12 months.

[Mark Critchley]

Royal Rumble. He just looks at him.

[Kerris Jones]

That's not Royal Rumble. I'm not saying, I'm not saying this was Raw Rumble whatsoever. But I think that by stamping it out and taking a hard line on stuff like that, it's the direction that I think a lot of us want the game to go in or at least move back towards compared to what it's been over the last year. So, yeah, look, it wasn't the most egregious example of that sort of thing, but I'm all for it, to be honest.

[Emma Payton]

Well, the goal wasn't allowed and Germany obviously ended up going out on penalties. But this is now three World Cups on the spin that they failed to make it to the last 16. So three on the spin not won a knockout game. And that's since the 2014 final that they were in. So this is, this is over a decade now. What are the issues with Germany at the moment and have they lost this, this aura that, that they once had?

[Mark Critchley]

Yeah, I mean, Nagelsmann said, you know, this means we're not part of the first class teams anymore. Which I think is, you know, quite the statement for a team that we're talking about, you know, having won the World cup not that long ago, sort of contesting into the latter stages of the Euros last time around. Obviously they were hosts and they had the kind of home factor, but still, you know, I think that the main issue for me, I keep coming back to the attack and sort of the lack of cutting edge or not lack of cutting edge, but sort of lack of maybe cohesion in attack and it just looking so, so much like less than the sum of its parts. There's other sort of like smaller issues that will zone in on like Neuer being called back. I don't know that that was Worth the trouble of calling him back and making him first choice keeper. I know there's been loads of debate over Kimmich's position and whether he should be at full back in midfield where he should be. Like, there's all these sort of small issues, but ultimately, to me, the problem is sort of lacking a bit of a focal point up top, lacking kind of clear routes to goals, I think.

[Emma Payton]

And maybe some of those attacking players just weren't in form. The likes of Leroy Sane, for example.

[Kerris Jones]

I don't. Yeah, I thought Sane had a few decent little moments last night. A lot of whip crosses that were causing some trouble in the second half. But broadly across the whole of the tournament, we saw them in that first game against Curacao, and I thought it was really difficult to make any sort of judgment on them on that basis just because they could blow Kuracao away. And then in the Ivory coast game, Ivory coast were on top of them for about an hour, I think. And yeah, they go and win it late, and you would hope that would spark something, there would be some momentum behind them. But speaking to colleagues who've been over there and have been sort of covering a couple of Germany games, it's the lack of confidence or assurance that you so associate with the man Shaft that hasn't. That hasn't been there. And look, I think even going into this game, they get past Paraguay, they walk into France on Saturday, and they. Absolutely nobody was really expecting to get a result there. And that's the biggest difference from the Germany team that I think we all know. Although I'm saying this, I think if you are Gen Alpha or whatever now, and you're what, 15, 20 years old, you might. You might remember 2014, but you probably. You probably don't. You probably don't even know what people are talking about when they talk about Germany as this World cup team anymore. So I think there was problems and questions coming into the tournament, and I think those. Those remain. Now they leave it.

[Emma Payton]

Matt. Matt's piece talks about this being the first ever World cup penalty shootout defeat for Germany. Of course, they've had this incredible record in penalty shootouts. The fact that they've now lost one, does it feel like a big moment for them?

[Mark Critchley]

Yeah, it comes back to what Critch was just saying about confidence. I think, like, that's ultimately psychology is the crux of a penalty shootout. And I think that as soon as Havertz misses that first penalty, you know, it felt like their resolve might sort of crumble a little bit. And the Mad thing was that Paraguay kept opening the door for them or kept kind of not finishing them off. You know, that shootout dragged on longer than kind of you would expect it to.

[Kerris Jones]

It's a three match point misses. I can't remember the last time I saw something like that where they have two penalties. And also Germany had to score theirs as well and not to put it away. And then for Ty to blaze it over the bar after that, like, that's your reprieve, you're back in.

[Mark Critchley]

And yeah, they were given so many chances, couldn't grab it. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's where the mental side of it comes in. I'm interested to see what direction they decide to go in. Now, Nagelsman said that he won't resign. So, you know, federation, your call, which I'm sure they'll be thrilled about, to not kind of have that decision taken out of their hands. I don't think he's a particularly popular figure at the minute, but that's on them now. He said that, you know, he won't walk away and it's up to them what they want to do. I struggle to see him staying in his job, but they won't want to sack another manager. They will want stability, but I don't think this is the right kind of stability at the moment. It feels a bit more like stagnation.

[Emma Payton]

Look, he's under severe pressure now, isn't he? And there are rumours swirling about Jurgen Klopp, who is, is or isn't waiting in the wings, maybe.

[Kerris Jones]

And there's been that whole sort of dynamic between them from the very start of the tournament, where Klopp's been on German television commenting on the performances, criticizing Nagelsmann. Then in that. Did you see their interaction? Was it after the Kuracao game where he basically apologized to Nagelsmann face to face for some of the criticism that he'd been making about him, which was very tense and sort of awkward moment where Nagsman clearly didn't want to be in the conversation and didn't want, you know, to have to go through that on national television publicly. It's a strange dynamic. I think Jurgen Klopp looks about 20 years younger for not being in football management. So if I was him, if I was him, I would stay well away. But I think, you know, certainly it's a job that he's always been sort of linked to. It could be an ambition of his one day, but I'd stick to the Budweiser ads and the Trivago ads and whatever other ads.

[Mark Critchley]

Is it just gonna continue until he has a go at the job, though? Is that going to be what hangs over whoever if Nagelsman goes, whoever replaces him is the immediate prevailing narrative just going to be like, well, you're not Jurgen Klopp like that. That would be my, my concern if he doesn't have a go at it and then go, I tried, you know, even if it doesn't work. But I do agree with, with you that he looks quite a lot happier and more relaxed and less tired for

[Kerris Jones]

a little bit of time away.

[Emma Payton]

Understandable. Well, there will be plenty more coming across the Athletic on Germany's exit, including a column from their 2014 World cup winning captain Philip Lahm. So have a lookout for that elsewhere. What a day of action. It really felt like the World cup caught fire last night. Brazil with a last gasp. Gabriel Martinelli winner to see off Japan. Morocco eliminating the Netherlands in a crazy penalty shootout. That coming after Cody Gakpo had given the Dutch the lead in really emotional circumstances. What stood out for you guys in those couple of matches last night?

[Kerris Jones]

I know it didn't have that much of an impact on the game in the end, but Vinnie Junior's little dribble where he puts it through Tomiyasu's legs and then goes for on goal. Honestly, if that had gone in, I think that's one of the great individual World cup goals. Like, nevermind. Just this tournament, I was, I was like watching it just wow, I'm watching on telly. Just couldn't believe what I was seeing. And to be honest, I say it didn't have an impact on the game. I think it felt like a bit of a turning point within the game where it started to feel like Brazil were taking on more of the momentum and finding, finding that edge that they needed. I was a little bit disappointed with Japan overall. I know that sounds a bit daft given that it was such a tight contest and it felt like it was really building into a crescendo and it would be a really great game and it was a good game, absolutely. But it just feels like they played a little bit within themselves and I think they've been guilty of that at times in this tournament. Netherlands as well, in their opening game, I thought they could have beaten the Netherlands if they just shown that little bit more courage and a little bit more belief in their own ability. Because when they run at you, they're dangerous and we've seen that a few times. But he didn't always feel like they Were willing to just take that chance yesterday and I think that allowed Brazil back in. So that was the standout for me, the Netherlands. I mean, another crazy penalty shootout.

[Mark Critchley]

What's standing out to me is just that no one seems to have practiced penalties.

[Emma Payton]

Virgil van Dijk did say after, didn't he? We have been practising for penalty shootouts.

[Mark Critchley]

Okay. But when you have to clarify that, it's never a great sign, is it?

[Emma Payton]

That's very true.

[Mark Critchley]

Five misses out of 12 in the Germany game and then five out of 10 in Netherlands, Morocco, just. It's not like there were some good goalkeeper saves and any goalkeeper saving a penalty is very impressive, but it's not like any of them were, you know, worldy saves. A lot of the penalties were really poor. Some of the ones that Paraguay scored I thought were really kind of weak hits and they were very, very lucky that Neuer went casual way.

[Kerris Jones]

Some of them.

[Mark Critchley]

Yeah, very casual. Which, you know, is fine if it goes in. If it doesn't, then you look really silly. But yeah. So hopefully everyone. I mean, I was going to say hopefully everyone steps up their penalty game for the next round, but actually it's quite a lot more fun seeing some people miss and having a bit of jeopardy introduced earlier.

[Emma Payton]

Yeah. For the neutral, anyway.

[Mark Critchley]

Yeah.

[Emma Payton]

I mean, bad night for UEFA in many ways. Germany out. The Netherlands out. Obviously, it feels like for us, we're very kind of Eurocentric here because we've got such a focus on the Premier League and the top European leagues, but a stat that is quite staggering, really. Spain's win over Uruguay is the only European win in seven games against South American countries.

[Kerris Jones]

That surprised me as well. I think we've seen, and particularly the African nations that have been. I think. I think all of them, apart from Tunisia, qualified. So I think we have seen with this expansion of the World cup to 48 teams, we've seen a lot of nations from outside Europe and South America sort of raised their game and really become stories of the tournament in some respects. I don't know. I think Germany and Netherlands, yes, two big names from Europe, but they're not two names that I think would have been. If we were picking the five at the start of the tournament, who we said would probably go on to. Well, the winner would be among them and they're the main contenders. I don't think either of those names would have cropped up. I know they were popping up in those rankings we were doing last week and I was skeptical about both of them and look what's happened guys.

[Emma Payton]

Yes. But you did also England as your number one on the mark critchley rankings.

[Mark Critchley]

And you didn't rate France either, did you?

[Kerris Jones]

I said England had been the team in the tournament. So performance. What else was.

[Emma Payton]

What are the critchley rankings looking like now? They've slipped down a fair way.

[Kerris Jones]

I really don't want to have to put France number one, but I guess I'm going to have to. But yeah, no, yeah, France. Okay. France looked really strong. France looks strong. Let's face it. They've done what I said, though. I said they needed to sort the midfield out and Manukone's come in and he's fixed things.

[Mark Critchley]

So in many ways you were actually right.

[Kerris Jones]

I'm glad Didier is listening. Yeah,

[Emma Payton]

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[Emma Payton]

Right. The transfer window continues to throw up big storylines throughout the World Cup. There's yet more movement on that midfield merry go round that we keep talking about. And to discuss it all, let's welcome our football correspondent, David Ornstein. David, great to see You. Let's start then with some news that was rumbling away over the weekend. Chelsea's interest in Sunderland captain Granit Xhaka. What can you tell us in this one?

[David Ornstein]

Yeah, well it's clear that Xhaka is a top target for Xabi Alonso. He played under him, succeeded, enjoyed a great relationship by Leverkusen and I was hearing weeks ago that this is the sort of signing that Xabi Alonso would want to make and lo and behold, Chelsea have gone in for him. We revealed on the Athletic that they've made an offer of 8 million pounds that has been rejected by Sunderland. They say they have no intention of selling him at any price and that they've communicated this to Chelsea. They see him as a key player, captain and leading them into Europe next season. He only joined 12, 12 months ago of course from Leverkusen and they want to renew his contract. There's been no sign of an agreement on that front. He is under contract until the summer of 2028. So there's some strength on the part of Sunderland. It does seem that Jacques would like to make the move and reunite with Alonso. But it'll be interesting to see where it goes next. Are Chelsea going to keep bidding and raising their offer? This is a player who some of them bought for. I think it was a package, a deal worth up to £17.5 million including add ons. So will their resolve be tested if Chelsea continue to bid? Will Chelsea continue to bid? How hard is Xhaka going to push for the move? So there's a lot to be decided in this. He's 33 years old so it would be pretty bold of Sunderland to stand firm, resist approaches and keep him that age. But you never know. They've, they've got an impressive sort of last year and hierarchy, ownership and, and they'll have ambitions of their own and so too will Chelsea. They'll want to deliver for Xabi Alonso and they've been looking for sort of more Premier League ready players, bit more experience than we've perhaps seen in the past. This sort of profile might not have appealed to them previously and certainly not if Xabi Alonso was in. And I'm not sure Chelsea would have appealed to Xhaka if it wasn't for Xabi Alonso. But it is a fascinating situation and let's see where it goes from here.

[Emma Payton]

Yeah, fascinating indeed. Caris, give us the Chelsea POV because David has talked about Xhaka's experience there. How needed is that at Chelsea at the moment?

[Mark Critchley]

Yeah, I think we've increasingly heard kind of acknowledgement coming from within the club and around the club, from players, from the coaches that they've had and then eventually kind of from the hierarchy as well that they do need to add some more Premier League ready players. And I really wish I'd written this down somewhere but when I started hearing that I did think Jaka would be a really good one to add because the thing that has really stuck out to me is how they have struggled to control games, how they've been kind of very open in transition. Their game management has been pretty poor at times with the tie against PSG being probably the best example of that. Unfortunately I didn't write that down anywhere. I'll say it on a podcast. So now I look like I'm jumping on a bandwagon, but there we are. But yeah, I think having. Thank you. Having Colwill back will really help with that central control. But I think having another midfielder who can can add that bit of maturity will be really good as well. And particularly looking at with a lens of if Enzo Fernandez does move on having a partner to Moikaisedo who can kind of like sit back potentially or be a little bit more disciplined or be a little bit more positionally aware while Caicedo is roaming forward, I think Xhaka would be really good for that role. Obviously we don't know what Fernandes future holds yet but yeah I think he would be a really smart signing for them. But by that same token I can absolutely see why Sunderland don't want to let him go anywhere and particularly for I think 8 million that Chelsea have offered. I can't see that that would ever be an offer that Sunderland would entertain.

[Emma Payton]

Yeah, he was one of the signings of last summer wasn't he?

[Mark Critchley]

Absolutely.

[Emma Payton]

Moving from Chelsea onto Manchester City which is what Enzo Maresc has done with his appointment being confirmed at the Etihad on Monday. David, you told us on Friday about their move for Elliot Anderson. So now that Maresca has been confirmed at Manchester City, what will they be looking to do in the market?

[David Ornstein]

Well midfield was the key area of focus Emma, wasn't it for City and their incoming head coach Enzo Maresca they managed to land Anderson Relatively early. 116 million pounds flat, no add ons medical done out here in the USA five year contract with an option to extend by a further 12 months. I would still say the midfield is an area of focus despite that they are fans. As we've reported on the Athletic of Sandro Tonali and seemingly have been going head to Head with Tottenham for him if he's to leave Newcastle United. And of course they'll have other options as well. City are one of the most sort of advanced and sophisticated recruitment operations. They don't have Pep Guardiola anymore, but they've still got a lot of the brains behind their success. There will be other positions of focus, no doubt. Right back is one we keep hearing about. I think they were initially linked with Palestra who, who ended up going to Chelsea. Talking of Chelsea, they've been quite heavily linked to Mallow Gusto if he's to depart. With the arrival of Palestra to Chelsea City sort of playing that down somewhat. I think there is admiration, but I don't know if a deal will materialize and Chelsea would definitely demand a very high fee for such a high level player. So yeah, let's see. In the goalkeeping department, is James Trafford going to leave? That's something we've reported. Newcastle sort of rekindling their interest in him and so would they need to add a bit of depth in that unit behind Gigi Donnarumma. So as Everett City, they'll be exploring, you know, their options in multiple positions because their drive to succeed and regain the Premier League title after Arsenal won it last season is going to be fierce.

[Emma Payton]

Yeah. No standing still from Manchester City, that is for sure. Before we get back to David Karas, I've got to talk to you about this statement that Chelsea dropped yesterday, which was odd but fascinating at the same time. This was after, of course, Enzo Maresca was confirmed as a City manager. For anyone that hasn't seen it, summarize it and what did you make of it.

[Mark Critchley]

So the main kind of takeaway from this is Chelsea and Maresca and City have reached this agreement that where City will be paying compensation to Chelsea, Maresca apparently will also be paying compensation to Chelsea. The upshot and the cause of which is that effectively this was when Maresca departed on New Year's Day. It was presented as, you know, a parting of company. The tone now is very clearly he resigned. It was his decision. And I think this is so fascinating because that wasn't necessarily what was communicated at the time. And I think that now that Chelsea have clearly reached a strong position where they feel that they can get compensation out of City and they can get, you know, they can probably also point a little bit towards that exit. And they have done in that statement they've said, you know, we felt let down. We believe Maresca's head and heart were focused on another club, another opportunity. They called it like a key factor or similar in kind of the downturn in their season. They also don't name him throughout. They give him full, like, Voldemort treatment. Our former head coach, it's like, ooh, who, who are we talking about? But, yeah, it was fascinating to see because that feels like that departure feels like about 17 years ago. We've been through a lot of Chelsea head coaches since then, and then they finish it with this not so subtle dig, saying, in Xabi Alonso, we have a manager who has an exceptional football mind, is a professional of the highest integrity.

[SoFi Advertiser]

Oof.

[Mark Critchley]

Yeah, they're clearly very highly critical of how Maresca handled this situation. They kind of attribute basically a lot of blame to him for the way that their season unraveled. And, yeah, it's fascinating to see all this come out kind of several months after the fact and to see that they were in a strong enough position to have Maresca come out and also make an individual statement, apologising for the disruption that his exit caused, saying, you know, it wasn't my wish, it wasn't my intention, the decision to leave was only mine. Yeah, I've been absolutely fascinated by it, especially because it was not necessarily the line that we were seeing at the time.

[Emma Payton]

Feels a little bit messy, doesn't it?

[Kerris Jones]

Well, yes, but does this settle it? I mean, £17 million for a manager that didn't want to be there is a pretty good deal, I would say. Plus whatever Mareska is going to pay on top of that. So does it settle it? I mean, I'm tempted to say maybe, but then also the cattiness of that statement. Yeah, me. And the fact that they don't name him whatsoever. I mean, Pep Guardiola gets named twice in it, I think, and you still don't know who the actual head coach is that they're actually talking about, if you're just an alien coming from nowhere. So, yeah, I think, look, I, I, I sort of have a bit of sympathy with Chelsea on it, to be honest, because I can see how you could make the argument this derailed their season, even though it is beholden on them to then appoint a manager who's more successful than Lima Senior ultimately was. But, yeah, look, it could get messy. I think. It's the 12th of December, City versus Chelsea at the AI. I think we're all looking forward to that.

[Emma Payton]

Yeah, get the popcorn out. Right, let's bring David back in and get back to talk about transfers, because, David, you reference midfield still being an area that Manchester City are likely looking to address. But you've also reported that Arsenal have made an approach for Bruno Guimaraj. So what's the latest on that one?

[David Ornstein]

Well, Arsenal have liked Bruno Guimaraes for a long time, Emma. They've been linked with him for years and it was no surprise, I don't think that they made contact with Newcastle United I think through intermediaries and suggested what they'd be willing to pay. I think it was an offer or some kind of proposal below £60 million. So that's them sort of laying down their marker and saying this is a player that we like and would be keen to do a deal for. Whether that deal actually happens is unclear because Newcastle have been firm that they have no intention of letting Bruno Guimaraes go. While you suspect it would be a move that would appeal to him, there's no suggestion of him being unhappy at Newcastle. And you can see from the way he plays and carries himself that he is happy there. Arsenal, a lot of people you speak to around the club actually feel that despite previously looking at players like Tonali for this summer that maybe Bruno Guimaraes is. Is a better fit for what they want. Compliments Declan Rice perhaps in a way that maybe some feel Tonali wouldn't. So you. You understand the logic behind it. He's. He's older than Tonali, he's experienced and, and. And he won't be the only option Arsenal are looking at for that midfield area. You know we've seen reports of Ayubuadi, a player we've talked about on here previously. I mean everybody will want him. The price will be high. It's not even clear if he will leave Lille. But it just goes to show that Arsenal are looking that. That sort of area. The. The number six, the number eight to. To add some strength in there. And of course Miles Louis Skelly deputized towards the end of last season and maybe he'll feature them more going forward but that they are surveying the options in the market and, and, and let's see if they manage to bring somebody in there. And, and certainly there is an admiration for Bruno Guimaraes. Let's see if that turns into an actual transfer.

[Emma Payton]

Bit of a wait and see on that one then. Critch. A penny for the thoughts of Newcastle United fans at the moment.

[Kerris Jones]

I mean it's hard not to feel sorry for them, I gotta be honest. But welcome to the layer cake, son. This is. This is the food chain, I think like losing players to United Arsenal Barcelona is frustrating and missing out on targets to clubs like that as well as they have before with Liverpool. Obviously frustrating. I think losing a key player in Tonali's case for example, to a rival who's finished back to back 17th place finishes, that would be. That would be unforgivable. And I think, you know, I'm very much on the outside. I don't know the inner workings of what goes on at St. James's Park. But I think from the outside I think it has to raise questions about the direction of the club ultimately because looking at their approach to the market last summer, it just felt so chaotic. It felt like it was so jumping from one target to another and not necessarily having a backup plan in place or not having a fail safe.

[Emma Payton]

Well, the ESAC saga just rumbled on and on.

[Kerris Jones]

Well, the ESOG went on and on and on. And then you also look at the results. I mean not just the players actually leaving, but then Jan VISSER Coming in, 28 years old, a lot of money. He had a year left on his deal at Brentford. There's no reason to be spending that much money on a player with a year left. I think 55 million and he comes in and he's injured and he doesn't get to make much of an impact. And you can have similar questions about Elanga who's a player I like a lot, very specific set of skills. But he's got a lot to justify that price tag that he's got as well. Volta Marder 2 Even in the good years, I would say qualifying for the Champions League they would then qualify for the Champions League, play in the Champions League and struggle to maintain the Premier League form at the same time because they can't really fight on two fronts. They've not got that depth. The style is too intense and I think you put the Saudi money to one side, you are still then even with that, I think in a position as Newcastle United where you need to box clever, you need to play clever, you need to be smart in the transfer market and I don't think you can say that they've always done that and I think that's why it might be understandable if even some of the very top players that they do have and the good signs that they have made, it's understandable if their heads get turned.

[Emma Payton]

Yeah, a big thanks to David. We'll let him go because we know he's a busy man but always great to have him on. For more on the transfer window, do remember to check out the deal sheet over on the Athletic

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[Emma Payton]

Okay, you know what time of the podcast. It is time for our do youo Know? Daily Trivia on day 20. Are you both ready for this? Critch, you've been doing your homework still, or have we given up on that?

[Kerris Jones]

I've figured out the secret of this. I've got the skeleton key to this.

[Emma Payton]

Care to elaborate?

[Kerris Jones]

Well, it's all related to the days, isn't it? Like it's day 20.

[Emma Payton]

Obviously, there was nothing secret about that.

[Mark Critchley]

Yeah, we knew that that was very much like the way it was.

[Emma Payton]

That's really the crux of the whole thing.

[Kerris Jones]

Okay, so I'm glad I'm up to speed.

[Emma Payton]

Did you think we were randomly just sort of going up in order?

[Kerris Jones]

I was. I've been. Pattern recognition, it's got a skill of mine. And I. I know it's. Wait, it's day 13 and the answer is 13. About 13 goals.

[Emma Payton]

So today is 20.

[Mark Critchley]

That helps this.

[Kerris Jones]

Yeah, it does.

[Mark Critchley]

I did actually. You did read the. The script and know this about the segment, but it hasn't helped me at all. Okay.

[Emma Payton]

Okay.

[Kerris Jones]

So you know the question.

[Mark Critchley]

No, I knew that it was linked to the day.

[Kerris Jones]

Oh, right.

[Emma Payton]

Everyone knew that.

[Mark Critchley]

Everyone knew. Everyone knew that apart from me.

[Kerris Jones]

Nobody told me.

[Emma Payton]

Okay, Right. Buckle up, guys.

[Kerris Jones]

I'm glad it worked out by myself.

[Emma Payton]

Do you know which two goalkeepers share the record for most World cup clean sheets with 20 between them?

[Kerris Jones]

I think we had this question earlier in the tournament. I was here in the studio where I heard those answers and I remember I answered Hugo Lariss. And that was wrong.

[Mark Critchley]

Is Watson Manuel, lawyer.

[Emma Payton]

Wrong and wrong.

[Kerris Jones]

We've had this question. Courtois. No, that's ridiculous. What am I saying?

[Emma Payton]

You were sort of down the right thinking in terms of a French keeper.

[Kerris Jones]

Barthez.

[Emma Payton]

Yep.

[Kerris Jones]

And closer to home, Shelton.

[Emma Payton]

Shelton. Oh, yes. There you hold the record for most clean sheets with 10 each. So after all that, apparently you knew what was going on but you still couldn't get the answers quick time. Yeah, that's.

[Kerris Jones]

That's how my brain's working at the minute. Slightly behind everybody else's, apparently.

[Emma Payton]

Okay, we are going to finish up on England today, ahead, of course, of that earlier kickoff against Dr. Congo on Wednesday. But of today's games, before we get to that, we've got Ivory coast against Norway, France taking on Sweden, and then Mexico go head to head with Ecuador. I mean, what. What a night.

[Jack Pitt Brook]

What.

[Emma Payton]

What stands out? Which game are you most looking forward to?

[Kerris Jones]

Ivory Coast, Norway, I think I was only a biggin up Senegal, Norway last week, wasn't I? And that turned out to be a pretty good game. Pretty good.

[Emma Payton]

You haven't been wrong once, have you, with any of your predictions this tournament?

[Kerris Jones]

Yeah, I mean, I said France were bad, didn't I? So basically. Okay, right?

[Matt Slater]

Okay.

[Kerris Jones]

I really need to go up to speed here. No, yeah. And I think again, like that game last week, I've been really impressed with the Ivory coast so far. I think, you know, they are. They're going to cause a lot of teams a lot of problems at this tournament and they cause Germany some real issues as well. As we mentioned before, attack with speed. Jandi Emande, of course, but Norway will do the same to them as well. And they're nice and well rested after throwing the game against France, which, by the way, should be an argument against France, because who've they actually beaten? Senegal. Decent team. I already said that in this answer. But Iraq, who we'd expect them to be, and then Norway's B team. So France has still got a lot

[Emma Payton]

of proof,

[Kerris Jones]

but I'm looking forward to seeing Norway at full strength.

[Mark Critchley]

Gosh, yeah, I'm looking forward to that one as well. I think France, Sweden has sort of, having seen what we've seen from Sweden, like the way that they were taken apart by the Netherlands, I have very little faith in them to stand up to France's attack. Mexico, Ecuador. You know, it always interesting to see the hosts. I think Ecuador, you know, pegged as dark horses before the tournament, only really joined the party in their last game to squeeze through. So are they going to carry some of that momentum against Mexico? That'll be interesting. But Ivory Coast, Norway feels like the most kind of open of those games, so that's the one that I'm looking out for.

[Emma Payton]

Should be a good night. Another late night pending, I think. So let's talk England next, then. And before we chat about it here in the studio, let's hear from the athletics. England Correspondent Jack Pitt Brook, who's at the team base in Kansas.

[Jack Pitt Brook]

The mood here is pretty good. I think there's a sense that they can draw a line under the group stage now and get on with the real business of the knockout rounds. Harry Kane has spoken to us in the past about how he really divides the World cup into two parts. The group stage is just about getting through, getting a feel for the competition. But the real work starts in the knockouts. It's going to be an interesting set of team selections for Thomas Tuchel when they get to Atlanta. I think that a lot of the questions will be about the full back positions. I imagine that Nico O'Reilly will probably continue at left back, at right back. It's not really clear what the best solution is. Obviously, Jareel Quansah went off with that ankle injury in England's third. Third group game against Panama. Jed Spence, who replaced him, could come in. It could be that he shuffles ESRI Konsa across to right back so he can bring in another center back. I imagine that would be John Stones who started the Croatia game. But everybody will have their own opinion on what exactly the best solution is in. In defense for England. And the other question is Bukayo Saka. Did Saka do enough in the Panama game, suggest that he should continue in the team? I'm not sure he did. Marcus Rashford I think, did do enough. So I would probably expect Rashford to continue and start against Dr. Congo. But it's going to be a fascinating game and I'm really interested to hear from Thomas Tuchel in his press conference, which will be on Tuesday night in Atlanta.

[Emma Payton]

Yeah, so that is coming up later on this evening. But for England. Now, does this feel like this is where the tournament really starts?

[SoFi Advertiser]

I don't.

[Kerris Jones]

I think when people say that, it always confuses me a little bit because I'm in World cup mode. You know, I think we all are for the last few weeks. I think if it's useful in any respect, it can be a sort of psychological break. But then I would always question if you need to have that sort of thing within, if you need to divide it into parts, then maybe that suggests that the first part hasn't gone that well. But then I thought, it's done. All right, maybe that's.

[Emma Payton]

I mean, he's. He referenced Harry Kane and he sort of said he thinks of it as two slightly different tournaments.

[Kerris Jones]

Yeah, look, I can see that. But then, you know, there was a lot of people last week. I haven't been on since pre the Ghana game. And there was a lot of people last week being like, well, after, you know, low blocks, frustration, you know, quite a disappointing performance. People were like, well, at least we won't play a team like that in the. In the knockouts. And I'm like, have you looked at the draw? Like, I mean, have you seen what they. What's likely to happen? And here we are running up against Dr. Congregate. I think from England's perspective, the right back thing is a big issue. Yes. And that's going to take a lot of airtime and talking points, but they didn't really seem to be playing with much of a right back in the last game. It was more back. Well, Quanzaa was kind of shifting in and it was more of a back three. And I think the big concern for me there was just how vulnerable we looked against counterattacks in both the Ghana game and the Panama game. They generally held both of those opponents at arm's length otherwise. But all the dangerous moments were coming on the counter. And I just wonder whether. I think you play Spence in this game and I think you try and return to a bit more of a traditional, maybe just for this game as well, but you have a bit more of a traditional back four. You have his sense of adventure, his sense of wanting to take people on as well from fullbacks, overloading what we expect to be a very tight and disciplined Congo team.

[Emma Payton]

Agree with that. In terms of bringing Jed Spence in at right back, obviously Jack mentioned maybe moving ESRI Conda over to the right. Then you bring John Stones in alongside Mark Gay at centre back.

[Mark Critchley]

I think to me the key is complicating it as little as possible and having a fullback at full back. So for that reason I would keep Jed Spence there. I think Gerald Konza didn't especially impress me and I think we're not entirely sure about. You know, he went off with that injury, didn't he? So we're not sure if he'll be available regardless. So I bring Jed Spence back in. I think that Konza has done well in his role. If, you know, kind of unspectacular but sort of flown under the radar, which is kind of what you want from that centre back. Yeah, well, apart from the tackle, but. But yeah, I think that the main selection other than that is the wide players. For me, I would probably agree with Jack that Rashford's done enough to into that spot on the left ahead of Gordon, the right. I'm just still really torn on. I don't When I think of Nonny Madaweka, I don't have a lot of faith in his end product, but Saka wasn't great and I don't know how fit he is. I think I'm probably leaning towards giving Saka that spot at the minute, if it was up to me. But yeah, it's that that neither of them have really convinced me so far, which I think is a concern.

[Kerris Jones]

I think if he's fit, it has to be Saka. If he isn't, and it is Madueka, he's the first change that I'd be looking to make because I think even though perhaps he didn't have his best game on Saturday, you saw the difference that he made when he came on against Croatia, for example, with Rashford's goal right at the end. He's just a difference maker and I think that's going to be needed in this game and I think it's going to be a game. Actually a lot of people last week or so, particularly after Ghana, they're like, I can't believe he's not taking Palmer. I can't believe he's not taking Foden. I feel like this is going to be a game where we're going to miss Trent, Alexander, Arnold.

[Emma Payton]

No, but we can't keep doing this, can we?

[Kerris Jones]

No, we can't. I don't even want to go down that road.

[Mark Critchley]

I don't want to keep seeing this. Palmer revisionism from this season is driving me a bit, a bit mad.

[Emma Payton]

There is a great article that was written over the weekend on the Athletic, picking through the key questions facing Thomas Tuchel's side. So just before we go, I'm going to pose some of them to you both now. Who has been the most impressive player?

[Mark Critchley]

I think Jude Bellingham has really kind of justified, you know, for all the talk that always kind of seems to surround him, he's showing why he's made that spot. His, like when this World cup does go on moments a lot. And again, Jack wrote a really good piece about this, about how he can be England's moments player, how he just has these sort of random little ideas in the box and bits of creativity that are sometimes that unpredictability that you need. I think he's going to be really crucial for them and I'll, you know, I'll throw Harry Kane in there in terms of importance, but in terms of who's impressed me so far, I think, I think Bellingham.

[Emma Payton]

Yeah. Can't argue with that. England's path to the final Is set then. So of course facing Dr. Congo in. In the last 32, then in the last 16. Mexico or Ecuador. Quarter final looking like it could be Brazil, maybe Norway if. If they come through in that quarter. Semi final, Argentina most likely. Just of what we've seen so far. Colombia in that section as well. Final obviously on the other side of the draw, you've got France, you've got the likes of Spain. So how far will England go? Critch, you're the biggest fan you've been in the last sort of week or so.

[SoFi Advertiser]

Which.

[Jack Pitt Brook]

What?

[Emma Payton]

Nothing wrong with that?

[Kerris Jones]

No, there's nothing wrong with that. I think the round of 16 is a really difficult game, to be honest. I think I am intimidated whichever opponent they might face if they get past the El Congo, because it's either Mexico in Mexico at altitude or it's Ecuador in Mexico at altitude and they're used to playing at altitude and I think that could be the conditions. We spoke a lot about the conditions pre tournament and it not quite felt in terms of the heat, at least it's not quite felt like that's had that much of an impact on England just yet. But this could be a real test. I'm slightly worried about it, to be honest. But imagine they get past that. I think they're a better side than Brazil. I think I'm fairly confident on that. I think I worry about Norway, if it's Norway, but I think they're a better side than Brazil. I think they can be a better side than Argentina on the day. And I think that, look, if it's France in the final, they absolutely smash them because France aren't all that.

[Mark Critchley]

So,

[Thumbtack Advertiser]

no, I said.

[Kerris Jones]

I said runners up pre tournament. I said runners up pre tournament to Spain in the final. And I don't think I've changed that too much just yet.

[Emma Payton]

Okay, so we've gone from round of 16 to final.

[Kerris Jones]

Yeah. If they get past the round of 16, they're going to win it.

[Emma Payton]

They can't keep up. Kerrys.

[Mark Critchley]

I'll do a similar sort of qualified. I think if they get past Dr. Congo and don't completely grind to a halt, which by all rights they should, and I'm expecting them to. I think they can get to the semi final. If they get Argentina in that semi final. That's what worries me. I think that could be the end of the road.

[Kerris Jones]

Colombia as well, if it's Columbia, because they look really tricky. I think they're going to cause problems for whoever comes up against.

[Mark Critchley]

But in terms of the balance, the team I think Argentina Argentina worry me

[Emma Payton]

yeah that is all we've got time for today thank you for your company back back wearing an England shirt tomorrow

[Kerris Jones]

please no yes not pack one with me sorry

[Emma Payton]

thanks to both of you. A big thanks to Jack, to David and to Matt as well and do remember all of our world cup coverage across the athletic app is completely free so go and check it out and I'll be back with you tomorrow. See you then.

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