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- [00:00]
Host
When I started podcasting, it felt like I had to figure everything out myself. Booking guests, figuring out rundowns, editing the show and publishing it. It seemed like the list of to do's got bigger and bigger and when you're starting off with something new, it seems like that just happens. Finding the right tool that not only helps you out but simplifies everything can be such a game changer. And for millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform, but behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. Get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style, accelerate your content creation. Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines and even enhance your product photography. Get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into a With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com TheAthletic Go to shopify.com TheAthLetic shopify.com TheAthLETic how many.
- [01:34]
Ayo Akinwolere
Discounts does USAA Auto insurance offer?
- [01:36]
Phil Hay
Too many to say here.
- [01:38]
Ayo Akinwolere
Multi vehicle discount Safe driver discount New.
- [01:40]
Host
Vehicle discount Storage discount How many discounts.
- [01:43]
Enzo Maresca
Will you stack up? Tap the banner or visit usaa.com autodiscounts restrictions apply. Bring along an American Express card to open the door to rewards wherever you go. Morning coffee run with an old friend Earn cash back Weekend getaway? Earn miles Dinner at the hottest restaurant in town. You get the idea no matter the place or the plan. AMEX rewards your inner explorer. See if you pre qualify for an American Express card with no impact on your credit score. Learn more@americanexpress.com check 4 offers. Your credit score may be impacted if you accept a card. Terms apply.
- [02:23]
Host
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [02:29]
Ayo Akinwolere
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akinwolere at the Weekend Chelsea overcame their biggest test yet under Enzo Maresca, and they did it in style. Enzo Fernandes Chelsea are tormenting Tottenham again. The 43 win away at their bitter rivals. Tottenham has seen them go up to second in the Premier League. So are Chelsea back and are they real title contenders? With me for this one, we've got Phil Hay as well as our Chelsea writer, Liam Toomey. Liam, let's start with this, right? A quote from your recent article basically states nothing says we've got our Chelsea back more than beaten Tottenham on their pitch and bantering them off in the process. Now take us into your, your, your life when they play Tottenham on Sunday. You know the reaction from Enzo Maresca, the fans and the feeling in general around the Chelsea. Campbell.
- [03:26]
Liam Toomey
Yeah, so first, that piece was built around the words we've got our Chelsea back, which is what the Chelsea away fans sang as they were beating Southampton 5 1. And it felt quite dangerous. It felt quite shocking that they would sing it first off, given how kind of nascent this revival still is. But it also felt quite dangerous with this Tottenham game on the horizon. But then when they sang it again at Tottenham Stadium after they'd completed the comeback, it really felt like they, they believed it. And this is a, this is a real thing. And it was, it was clear in the stadium just how much that win meant to everyone of a Chelsea persuasion like Maresca. The way he celebrated at the final whistle, he turned back to his bench, he kind of bent his legs, screamed at the sky, he had both fists pumped at his sides and then he had a big group huddle hug with his backroom staff. I've seen him celebrate other wins, but nothing quite like that. He, he, he was quite keen to, you know, play it down in his post match press conference. Understandably, I don't think it is our biggest win. We go day by day, all of this kind of coach speak, but if you judge by his body language, his actions in the game, I think it sent quite a different message. And the players as well, the way they were celebrating the third and fourth goals and the way they celebrated afterwards, going up to the fans. And it does feel like something is building here. We don't really know what the limits of it are. We don't know where it can go this season. But Chelsea finally, you can say quite confidently, are on a real upward trajectory again.
- [05:09]
Ayo Akinwolere
Yeah, I guess it's that optimism that's really interesting for me right now, watching Chelsea play in the Premier League and also the fans reaction to the play. But I guess that optimism also has to be caveat by the fact that, I mean, it's taken a while before we got here with Chelsea. Just take us back a little bit as to understand just how far the club has regressed over the last few years, and I think we were just talking about it just before the podcast. This is a very new type of Chelsea that fans are trying to get used to as well.
- [05:38]
Liam Toomey
It's a completely new club. It's almost entirely new personnel on and off the pitch. The squad has been overhauled. Every department off the pitch has been overhauled on the football side, on the commercial side, there's clearly new ownership with very different ideas of how Chelsea should run. And there's been a lot of pain over the last two years while all that change has been happening. And Chelsea have been a laughingstock because they've been in a position where they've been outspending everyone else while finishing in mid table in the Premier League. I mean, their 12th place finish in 20, 22, 23. That's Chelsea's worst domestic performance this century, worse even than 2015, 16. It's worth remembering that even before Abramovich came in in 2003, they were already like a top six Premier League club. So this was something that entire generations of Chelsea fans had not experienced. And I think that did affect the mood in stadiums also online, the way fans were interpreting results, performances, the general direction of things. And it's. It's taken a long time for, for. For it to become clear that things are slowly heading in the right direction. I think if you paid attention last year, particularly in the last few months, it was. It was pretty obvious that a team, or at least a core of players was coming together, that there was something to be excited about beyond just Cole Palmer, who I'm sure we'll talk plenty about.
- [07:08]
Ayo Akinwolere
We have to at some point.
- [07:09]
Liam Toomey
But it, it was clear that, that. That progress was being made under Mauricio Pochettino. And then the decision to mutually part ways, I think that kind of reset things or set things back in terms of the fan mood going into this season. They really didn't know what to make of Maresca, what to make of the judgment of the people who'd hired him. It's still relatively early days, but I think Maresca has been nothing but impressive in the job so far. And that reflects well on the. The process to hire him, the decision to. The bold decision to. To part with Pochettino. And it really has built on the foundations that were laid last year, and now Chelsea are kind of back to a more recognisable level of competing in the Premier League.
- [07:56]
Ayo Akinwolere
Yeah, Phil, I mean, I think I'm going to have to eat a little bit of humble pie right now, because I've always been skeptical about what's been going on at Chelsea. And also, you know, so many managers have, have come through the a short period of time, but look at them now, second in the table, 31 points after 15 games. From your perspective, are you surprised by how quickly Mareska has got them playing decent football and you know, they're doing well attacking. I mean, there are issues for sure, but I mean, this looks like a serious side right now.
- [08:28]
Phil Hay
Oh, listen, I mean the, the intro to today's newsletter says we laughed at the exorbitant transfer fees and the nine year contracts and you know, we laughed at the stories about players having to change in the corrid at the training ground because there was no room in the dressing room. And also, yes, frankly with Mareska, I am surprised. Not because it's him. I mean, I was one of the people who thought Maresca did a very, very good job at Leicester. And I, I do totally accept that his squad was worth more, you know, in monetary terms than just about every other squad in the division. It was a team that should have been there for automatic promotion, should really have been good enough to win the title. But I don't think you can discount the pressure that comes on when you have essentially zero leeway at a club. Maresca was never going to. With a mixed or a poor season at Leicester, it had to be, it had to be good at the first time of asking. It was his first job in England, first managerial job, first job in the championship as well, which is, you know, not an easy league, even when you've, you've got a big budget. And at no point did he really seem rattled. There was a stage around about Easter or before Easter where it got a bit dicey for Leicester and they had to grit their teeth and they had to get through it. But. But they did. And I think looking back now, it's quite, it's quite notable that Chelsea went really quickly for him in the summer. Once Pochettino left and once it was, as Liam put it, mutually agreed that he would go, they seemed absolutely set on Marescha as their man. It was really difficult. And I always go back to the conversation the three of us had in the summer, the podcast we did then. It was really difficult to predict where this was going to go. And I think the reason for that was I wasn't certain if Marescu was going to get himself in the building and be able to have the sort of clarity of thought that he clearly has, had to be able to look at what is a very big and still, you know, quite, quite bloated squad and figure out, you know, clearly what is the. What is the strongest 11 from this, what is the best matchday squad to use, how best to retain, how to, you know, most effectively get these players into a position where the. The playing is a team. And I think Liam's right. It did seem to be coming together slightly under Pochettino towards the end of last season, but Maresca seems to have found a framework and, you know, a clear plan in the way that Pochettino struggled to force for a lot of last season. And you start to look at it and say, he's been a really good appointment, really savvy appointment, doesn't seem like the job is in any way too big for him. And actually, as time goes on, I'm looking at more and more of the signings and thinking. Chelsea have signed good players, and I think we knew that they'd sign quality players. The question was always whether somebody was going to be able to net it into a proper unit and a proper team that worked. And Maresca seems to have reached that point.
- [11:02]
Ayo Akinwolere
He's conducted himself with authority as well, and, you know, Jonis have thrown a lot at him, and he seems to have come out of it looking like someone who is in control. It's very hard sometimes for new managers to come into a club and get those ideas across clearly and we see the progress on the pitch.
- [11:19]
Liam Toomey
You know, I think he did inherit some issues in terms of, as Phil says, finding a hierarchy had started to emerge last year in terms of players. It was already clear Cole Palmer was the man. Nicholas Jackson had emerged as a. As a very good number nine. Moises Caicedo had really begun to hit stride second half of the season. There were. There were a few things, but there was a lot to. To sort in terms of the football side, and there was a lot in terms of circumstances in those early weeks. You had the Enzo Fernandez situation after the Copa America, which no one could have foreseen. Chelsea couldn't have foreseen it. It happened, like, really far away from. From the club, but had profound implications, not just for the club, but for the dressing room. That was something that Maresca had to handle immediately. And there were questions, I think, legitimate questions for how he immediately handled that. And then you have all the ownership stuff which came to light at the start of September. Again, something that has nothing to do with Maresca, but he has to answer questions on, have you spoken to the owners? Which ones have you spoken to what's your knowledge of this situation? And I just think he's handled everything really well. And that's without even mentioning the bomb squad. What was happening in the last weeks of August, the way Chelsea were handling certain players that they wanted out. He always owned decisions about players on a football level as, as a coach. And I think he, he managed to strike the balance between being a good company man, which is one of the ways that Pochettino often fell down, I mean, consciously chose to fell down a lot in the second half of his season, while not coming across as weak, while not coming across as a puppet for anyone above him. You know, he does seem strong willed and his own man. He's certainly not being told who to pick. You know, he takes Enzo Fernandez out, he brings him back in when his form has recovered and he's, he's got a better role for him and, and you see the fruits of that. So he's, he's been really impressive off the pitch. And that's, and that's not even really to mention the fact that in games Chelsea have so often made changes and did again against Tottenham, made changes at half time or with substitutions or just in terms of tactics that have been really smart and actually changed the moment and help them keep building these positive results. And that's all to Mareska's credit. The fact that he's done all of this ever managing in the Premier League before having one season as a head coach and going from a club which, you know, all due respect to Leicester, they were the big guns of the championship, but it's a completely different level of scrutiny and day to day pressure at Chelsea and he just seems to have taken all of it in his stride.
- [13:59]
Ayo Akinwolere
Yeah, talk about where they are in the league right now. We talk about positive play, Phil. It's hard not to say they're in the title race, right. But that's constantly being played down by the managers and the players. For example, you know, Levi Colwell talking to Sky Sports after the win over spurs was saying, you know, when we're ready to push for a Premier League title, we won't be 2 nil down in the first 10 minutes. And that was referenced in obviously the match against Spurs. That's the level we need to be at and that's what we need to keep working on. It's surely too early, Phil, to predict them as title winners, but surely they have to be in the conversation at least.
- [14:39]
Phil Hay
Well, I would turn Caldwell's comments on the head by saying two nil down at spurs and turning that around to the point of being 4:2 up and home and host is the sign of a very, very good team. And I think more to the point, when it went 20 on Sunday, you kind of knew Chelsea were going to win that game. You knew that spurs didn't have an awful lot left in them. I look at Chelsea more and more and I just see a group of players who are absolutely having themselves at the mom it really, really confident. They obviously like the way this is going. They like Maresque is coaching and his system is a weird system, weird season. Sorry. Because nobody seems to want to be in this title race. Liverpool, given it the, you know, too early, too early. Despite their league position, Chelsea are as well. I do kind of understand it from the point of view of both clubs because I don't think either expected the table to look as it does at the moment. City are kind of giving you the vibes that it might not be the year and that there's rebuilding to do. Arsenal just can't quite get on a roll at the moment, but are still there and still very much in the mix. Somebody has to win it. And I think it has already shaped up to give us an impression of the group of four clubs that that winner is going to come from. All I would say is that I think if Liverpool's challenge proves to be sustainable, then I don't see much reason why Chelsea shouldn't either. And I do wonder whether actually there's a little bit more depth at Chelsea than there is at Liverpool. If. If things get stretched, if Maresca loses players at key points, he probably has a little bit more to reach for than on a slot does over. Over Liverpool. And it's. It's very hard to see big, glaring weaknesses in this team. I'm not saying they're perfect and I'm not saying defensively that they're absolutely spot on. But I do think the midfield is functioning so much better than it was last season. I think Maresque has nailed that area of the pitch to quite a large degree. And he's also got himself into a position where Cole Palmer isn't just a bit of a, you know, some light in the. In the general gloom about Stamford Bridge. It isn't a case of, well, this is dreadful, but look at what Cole Palmer's done again. Palmer is as effective and as influential and important for them as he's ever been. But what's going on round about him is starting to look really productive as well. And that is why they're Developing into a really good side. Yeah.
- [16:52]
Ayo Akinwolere
There's two things I want to ask you, Liam. Firstly, is those deficiencies that Phil's talking about, where can they fix it up? But just before that, you know, you've been watching Chelsea now for a long time, especially over the last few years where things have been a bit turbulent. What is it like now watching this Chelsea team? Are you thinking the wheels are going to fall off at some point here because you're sort of scarred by what you've seen over the last few years? Or are you buying into this sort of like movement where you're seeing positive football? You're looking at players who seem to know what's going on. A tactical nuance there from a manager that's adding and taking away things for each game and adapting. Are you confident in what you're seeing?
- [17:28]
Liam Toomey
It does feel like there's a lot more game to game consistency in terms of what they're doing. What changes is the personnel that Maresca goes with and the way that he arrives at that final shape on the pitch that he wants. He wants this. Three defenders, two midfielders or two defensive midfielders, two attacking midfielders, a kind of box and then three attackers. But he, he gets there in so many different ways. Sometimes it's the left back inverting, sometimes it's the right back. Sometimes they're going into the. The defensive midfield, sometimes they're jumping in at number 10, as Mark Cucureyer did in the second half against Spurs. There's just a lot of flexibility from Maresca and it feels like the players now are familiar enough with it where they're not always executing it perfectly for 90 minutes. They do make mistakes, and that's why they haven't kept that many clean sheets this season. But they know it well enough now that there's a more recognizable identity from the Premier League team and the Conference League team, even though in many cases they're entirely different teams. And that's one big change from the last two years. I mean, 20, 22, 23 was a write off because you had three different coaches and it was just a complete mess. Even under Pochettino, it. You didn't know what you were going to get from game to game because there wasn't the same kind of structure. I think a lot of these players, they've benefited from having that year together, so they were still learning and it often felt like they would raise or lower their game to the standard of the opposition. They had some of their best games under Pochettino against the biggest Teams and some of their worst against teams that they really had no business being in a competition with. This year they've done a much better job of taking care of business against the teams they should be beating. And I think that's a credit to a more structured approach where everyone knows where they need to be. But Maresca's managed to do that without falling into the potential pitfall that quite a few people I think, including maybe us in, in pre season flagged up of. Will he inhibit Cole Palmer? You know, this guy who's completely energized Chelsea's attack. Will he be able to express himself fully? And he has been. He's just doing it in a. In a more structured environment, but he's still empowered to do the things he does best. Mareska knows that Palmer is the queen on his chessboard, essentially, and he's used him really cleverly. There's a great piece on the Athletic from Michael Cox which looks at this. He's moved him around the pitch based on different opponents to allow him to impact games. So I think there's this blend of player empowerment, but also a system and a structure that allows Chelsea to be a bit more consistent, even if they're not quite perfect yet.
- [20:18]
Ayo Akinwolere
Attacking wise, we seem happy. Midfield wise, we seem very happy defensively though. I mean, injuries there for sure, but still a bit of tweaking there, you reckon?
- [20:29]
Liam Toomey
Yeah, I think the, the midfield balance is like an evolving thing and that has implications for the defense. So early in the season, Enzo Fernandez was being used a bit more at the base of midfield alongside Moises Caicedo and Fernandez is not really good enough defensively to make that viable. Caicedo needs a bit of support and in the last couple of games we've even seen Caicedo start at right back so that he can then invert into midfield. And you have this Caicedo Lavia axis, which has kind of stabilized things in some ways for Chelsea. The defense, I think they've benefited in terms of the way they play out from Maresca having quite a consistent selection. So until Wesley Fafana got injured, you could largely predict. Well, you could certainly predict the center back pairing, but largely predict that whole defensive unit. They, they do still make mistakes playing out. And, you know, Robert Sanchez is still not really convincing anyone at Stamford Bridge that he is the long term solution as a goalkeeper. I think there are quite a few people who would still like to see Philip Jorgensen given a bit more of a run just to find out what Chelsea have in him.
- [21:38]
Phil Hay
Does that Include Maresca, Liam Because Maresca has been actually quite defensive of Sanchez and it's kind of stood by him every time I've seen him quoted on him. But the general kind of vibe around Sanchez seems to be that if, if Chelsea will need to upgrade in one position or to change in one position like you say they have got others in the squad, then he'd maybe be the one.
- [21:56]
Liam Toomey
It's hard to know Maresca's true thoughts on Sanchez, but everything that he said and done publicly has been full throated backing of Sanchez. Every time Sanchez misplaces a pass or makes a mistake, you'll see Maresca up off his seat, hands over his head, clapping really loudly for everyone to see, even if Sanchez is being assailed by groans from the crowd. Because I think regardless of whether he believes Sanchez is Chelsea's long term goalkeeper, he has to project that confidence because otherwise he's got a decision that he has to make immediately. And I think he doesn't want to have to make that decision. This is just my view on it from the outside, he doesn't want to have to make that decision. It's a very delicate one. I think with goalkeepers in particular, they need to feel that confidence from their coach, especially if you're asking them to make the kind of decisions with their feet that Sanchez is consistently being asked to make. I mean, Mareska said some of the same things last year at Leicester about Mads Hermansen. I've seen some of the quotes like, you know, the only thing I'll take him out of the team for is if he kicks long. That's, that's basically what he says. So he's very, very keen to keep striking that note. But I think if things continue the way they are, it's very hard to believe that it's not a position that Chelsea will be looking to upgrade in the transfer market at some point.
- [23:23]
Ayo Akinwolere
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO akamwalere.
- [23:29]
Host
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- [24:32]
Enzo Maresca
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- [25:31]
Liam Toomey
For me, Chelsea in the next five, 10 years will be one of the team or the team that is going to dominate English football. This is what I said to the club the first time I met them. Them, no matter who will be the manager for the next five, 10 years. Because of the age and because of the squad, you can dominate English football. And I still, I still think exactly the same. Now in terms of target, they didn't ask me any target. The only thing they asked me is to try to build for the next years something important.
- [26:01]
Ayo Akinwolere
Yeah, that was Enzo Maresca saying Chelsea will dominate English football over the next five to 10 years because of this youthful squad feel. And according to transfer market, the average age of Chelsea squad is around 23 years years old, which is the youngest in the league. Is there some sense to his claims?
- [26:18]
Phil Hay
What you're saying is that every player there is half as young as me? That's depressing.
- [26:22]
Ayo Akinwolere
Not far off, don't you worry.
- [26:25]
Phil Hay
It's hard to know, isn't it? I mean, it's like chips on black for Chelsea. And we will see further down the line whether they went out on this or the people who think that the transfer strategy won't prove to be savvy, astute, whether, whether they Win out. But two things I would, I would definitely reference here. One was the recent deal sheet that the Athletic run, which Liam will have had a hand in, which was essentially saying that Chelsea are pretty happy with a lot now. There's been a lot of churn in the squad. They've been. It's kind of been like, buy, buy, buy, spend, spend, spend. But I think I'm right in saying that it sounds like it'll be a really quiet January. And even beyond that, I kind of wonder how active Chelsea will be if, if this season goes as well as it's gone to this point. And I think it gives you the impression of a club who spent a couple of years trying to get themselves into the position they want to be in, have reached that now and have said, right, okay, let's let this ride and let this play out. Let players get games, let Maresca have a run, let's see if it all comes together. But also go back to a really good phrase that Liam used about the squad at Chelsea, which was like a portfolio of players. And it does sound a little bit like somebody investing and, you know, kind of stockpiling property, but it is probably the right way to describe it because you can kind of understand what Chelsea are doing. On the one hand, they're wanting to buy players who are not yet at the peak and can develop, you know, the performance levels can, can improve. But they're also wanting, I think, to bring in players whose value will appreciate and who, even if they don't become, you know, established first team players, are really key figures at Chelsea will have a lot of resale value when they, when they move on. They're definitely players who they're going to lose money on. But I think more and more you do start to look at the recruitment and think that they've, they've had some good hits there. I think they've, they've been. Been clever in what they've done. The players they've gone after look to me like sensible signings. In the main, there are some that definitely will, will not work. But I think the idea of a portfolio of players is something that other clubs might start to kind of move towards, because if you can get enough who, you know, play well for you enough who earn you some resale value, then it's almost like the best of both worlds. And I think the bottom line is because of the size of the squad and the number of players they have recruited, if it does go well for them, then, yes, they are going to be very dominant for A long period of time doesn't mean they're necessarily going to win everything or win a huge amount, but they should be kind of there or thereabouts.
- [28:41]
Ayo Akinwolere
Well, Liam, one player that seems to be doing well under this new manager is Moises Caicedo. You know, Enzo Maresca recently saying that he's at the same level as Rodri and Declan Rice. One of our readers has written in and said Cole Palmer is in Ballon d'or waiting to happen, I guess. Is this one of the benefits of having such a young squad is that they can grow better with a team and actually grow nicely under a solid structure?
- [29:11]
Liam Toomey
This was always the strategy. I know it looked to some from the outside that Chelsea were just spending like drunken sailors when the new owners came in, but certainly from January 2023 when they got this sporting structure in place and Clearlake really took the steering wheel from that chaotic first window in which Boehly was interim sporting director. And there were lots of reasons why it was very, very difficult for them to navigate the market. They've had a clear direction which is to identify some of the best young players in the world across all positions, aggressively pursue and sign those players, overhaul the squad in the process, lower the wage bill with a lower base wage, more incentive based structure, and then allow that talent to develop and see what emerges. I think there was a realism. The word portfolio I think is still very, very apt. There's a cold headed realism behind what Clearlake have done, which is they don't expect all these transfers to work. They genuinely, that's like not every transfer. They're not expecting 100% hit rate and they're looking at it all in the aggregate. So as long as the talent ID is good enough that you have more hits than misses, the model should work. And then it's about getting the football side of it right, getting a coach in who knows how to fit these players together and making a team that is the sum of its talented parts. And it's taken a while to get all of that in place, but we're seeing signs now that it, that it might be and, and you know, it's not the most romantic way to build an all conquering team and people can have different opinions on whether or not they like it or want it to succeed, but that is all separate, I think from whether or not it's logical and can work. And I think there are signs probably over the last year really when you look at the second half of last season that Chelsea have signed a lot of good players and we're starting to see more and more of that affect games on the pitch and turn into Premier League points.
- [31:23]
Ayo Akinwolere
This year Chelsea have pretty much fielded two different types of squads in the league and then in cop competitions. If they finish in a Champions League position, would that be actually harder to do in your eyes? You know, are we looking at a summer where they're going to need a really strong team on both fronts? So therefore certain players have to go because this surely isn't feasible down the line.
- [31:45]
Phil Hay
They'll have to take stock, no question about that. I actually like the Conference League. I like the way in which, you know, teams from weird and wonderful places, weird and wonderful names get pitched against clubs like Chelsea with, with sort of mega, mega budgets is a bit of fun. But for a team like Chelsea and for a coach like Maresca, it's, it's actually very easy to rotate in that competition without the fear of, of, you know, taking a, taking a shiner really. It's, it's not, you know, it's not difficult for Chelsea to use second string players and to progress very, very deep into, into the Conference League. To a certain degree the same is true of the League cup. Until the latter stages, definitely. If it was the Champions League next season combined with the Premier League, then it' proposition. But it's only the proposition that any team who, who's involved in the Champions League and takes it seriously and thinks they can go, you know, the distance I'll go far into it has to, has to cope with. I think again, there's a good amount of depth at Chelsea to, to help them with that. I suppose what will have to happen next summer, if this is what they're looking at, is that they'll have to be fairly ruthless and fairly strict in deciding who is actually good enough if we need them on a Tuesday night or a Wednesday night against Real Madrid, psg, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, who is, who is up to that? I don't think there's much question that the kind of 11 to 18 stroke 20 that Maresca is relying on at the moment looks very good and very strong and very capable. But as City have found, once you get injuries and once it, once, once you start to get stretched, that's when you, you really find out. But Chelsea do seem to have been forward planning an awful lot with recruitment and as Liam says, there are a lot of players there, you know, and some, some good talent as well. So, so I don't think they'd be perfectly set for it, but I think they'd have A pretty good framework to build on.
- [33:27]
Liam Toomey
I think they'll go into next summer. Very mindful of the fact, provided, of course, they make top four, which looks very likely now, that they will need to upgrade the squad again. I don't really expect them to do much, if anything, significant in January in terms of incomings. They didn't last January either. But next summer they'll look at it again. And they've already shown the capacity as an ownership, as a sporting leadership to be ruthless once they decide that players do not fit into their plans. But the Conference League has been weirdly perfect for Chelsea this season. I was thinking that because a lot of that second string. Yes, there are some very high profile names in it. I mean, Christopher Nkunku, you can see he's almost bored on his way to being named.
- [34:12]
Ayo Akinwolere
Injury. Yeah, that game time elsewhere, that's great. Just to see what he's able to offer.
- [34:16]
Liam Toomey
Yeah. And in the bigger squad picture, it hasn't necessarily helped Maresca keep players happy because I think a lot of those players, conference league is not enough to keep them happy, but it's at least given them a steady diet of minutes. Not always the most competitive minutes, but minutes nonetheless that keep them to a degree of sharpness, whereby if an opening comes up in a Premier League game, Maresca knows he can bring in a player who has played in the last three or four weeks, you know, and is not going to look way off the pace, which I think is sometimes the problem that other clubs can have when they have, and I've seen Chelsea have it before, when they have a clear core of 13, 14 players and then players outside of that who barely ever play. It can create issues in terms of the cohesion of the team. If you get injuries or suspensions, they will get less wiggle room next year. They won't be able to give Cole Palmer his midweeks off, which has been an incredible luxury in the first half of this season. And that will also ask new questions of the performance and medical department, which is almost entirely new. Every key hire under Bryce Kavanagh, the director of performance, has been hired in the last two years, but they have so far avoided the repeat of the injury crisis that really played a huge role in derailing Pochettino last year. The Champions League will add to that minute's load, but I think they will back themselves to adapt to that.
- [35:42]
Ayo Akinwolere
I guess one of the things that Maresca's also got to find a fine balance with is putting his arm around these really young, young players, but also showing that sort of stern, I need you to operate at a better level. You look at what he's done with Noni Madwa, you know, dropping him over his training performance, that is, I wouldn't say an issue necessary. It's a great luxury to have, but it's a fine balance because you're still dealing with relatively young players who are still figuring out how to apply their trade.
- [36:06]
Liam Toomey
Yeah, definitely. And in the case of Madueke, Pochettino did something very similar last year. Called him out publicly about his level, dropped him, brought him back in, and he had, he and Pochettino had a great relationship. All the signs are that Madueke and, and Maresca have a really good relationship too. He said very positive things about Maresca publicly. So to me, again, that's a sign that Maresca has an instinct for what certain personalities need. You know, you can have the, the tactical acumen. You can have the ability to, to organize players on a pitch and change that as circumstances change. But in order to be, in order to have a long shelf life at a top club, you also need to be able to manage personalities, and lots of them, some of them big personalities. And I know we all often talk about the modern players, not quite the same as the personalities of the past, but I think just because the challenges are different doesn't mean they're not there. And Mareska's shown quite a good aptitude, I think, for that emotional intelligence as well as the tactical acumen.
- [37:23]
Enzo Maresca
This podcast is brought to you by Aura. By the time you hear about a data breach, your information has already been exposed for months. On average, companies take 277 days to report a breach. That's nine months where hackers have access to your personal data. That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Aura is an all in one digital safety solution that monitors the Dark web for your phone number, email and Social Security number, sending real time alerts if your info is found. It also includes a vpn, password manager and data broker removal. To help keep you safe for a limited time, Aura is offering a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked. All for free@aura.com safety aura.com safety to sign up and protect your loved ones. That's a R A.com safety terms apply. Check the site for details.
- [38:20]
Ayo Akinwolere
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO akamalera. Let's finish on this, really, because I'm looking ahead to Chelsea's next seven fixtures, actually, before they travel to face City on January 25, you've got Brentford at home, Everton away, Fulham at home, Ipswich away Crystal Palace Way, Bournemouth at home and Wolves at home. I'm looking at the form of some of these teams, Phil. Liam, please jump in at some point. Arsenal aren't looking crazily consistent. Liverpool, we're still yet to see what's going on there. A lot of these fixtures, Liam, you'd expect them to be in a good place by the time they play City, who are also looking for consistency roughly around January.
- [39:02]
Liam Toomey
Yeah, I mean, it was clear a couple of weeks ago that their two most testing Premier League games left were Aston Villa and Tottenham. They've emerged from that with six points. So they're in a really strong position now to, if not put themselves really in the title picture, then certainly create meaningful separation from maybe even third, fourth, nevermind fifth. And they can put themselves in a position where they have the luxury of looking up rather than down and not playing with pressure, not feeling a target on their backs, but feeling like we're ahead of schedule. Let's just see what we can do. And I think that's a really healthy atmosphere for a young group of players and a fairly young coach to be in where you're not feeling like you're expected to win or teams might overtake you. But they have to continue to take care of business against the teams that they're expected to be. Brentford at home has been a bit of a banana skin in the last few years for different Chelsea coaches. They've got got, I think three London derbies in that run as well. They're really straightforward. Palace already got a point at Stamford Bridge this season, so the challenges can emerge sometimes where you don't expect over a long season. But carrying in this level of form and confidence, Chelsea will be, I think they'll fancy themselves to, to pick up the points to keep themselves at least where they are in the league.
- [40:23]
Ayo Akinwolere
Yeah, it's a relentless fixture list over, you know, that December period, Phil. But they've got to fancy themselves and follow this momentum forward. I mean, because if I always think about, you know, those computer games like, you've got to get to the big boss. The big boss is Manchester City, but the big boss isn't looking that big bossy at the moment.
- [40:41]
Phil Hay
It's like Streets of Rage 2, isn't it, where you've got to beat the big man with a machine gun.
- [40:44]
Ayo Akinwolere
You're showing your age now.
- [40:46]
Phil Hay
Streets of Rage, that is probably.
- [40:48]
Liam Toomey
What was that? What game was that?
- [40:49]
Ayo Akinwolere
Sega Mega Drive.
- [40:50]
Phil Hay
Oh, yeah. Don't worry, you're one of these 23.4 year olds at Chelsea. Yeah. Unlike me. That's probably though, what Chelsea need next, isn't it? Statement win of some sort against Liverpool, Arsenal, Manchester City. That makes everybody think, actually this is, this is coming together. I think the next few weeks will, you know, over Christmas will go well for them. And I've been quite impressed by the way Maresque has done little rotations with the team. It seemed like good decision bringing Sancho in at the weekend and, you know, to go back to his authority as well. Regardless of what players are like these days, you still need that line in the sand where it's clear who's in charge. And I think he struck the right balance at making it clear who is running the place without being ridiculous about it, without being egotistical. I think it would be easy with somebody like Cole Palmer to be concerned about, you know, giving him kind of free reign and this fast and loose number 10 position when he, when he plays there. But Maresque is obviously sensible enough to realize that if you do that with, with Palmer, he's going to play like he's playing and he's going to score an assist in the way that he is at the moment. So I, I don't see the league position worsening over the weeks ahead. At some point, a little bit like Liverpool, they'll hit that, that grueling run. But the advantage of something like the, the Europa League, apart from the fact that they've got lots of players, is that outside of the odd, you know, domestic league like Scotland, for example, where Celtic are going to win it every year, Germany, I know we had Leverkusen, but Bayern Munich win it year after year after year. There can't have been a cup competition with a more obvious winner in it than Chelsea this season, with the exception of Fiorentina, I just don't see where any sort of feasible challenges is coming for them. You know, Liam called it a luxury and it is that they can almost just process through that they're a threat. And, you know, in the summer, again, to go back to that podcast, when you asked will they finish top four? And we all said absolutely no idea. It's very difficult now to see how they don't.
- [42:41]
Liam Toomey
Just on the knowing who's in charge point, what have we not seen this season? We haven't seen players fighting over who takes a penalty. We haven't seen quite as many really stupid bookings, to the point where Nicolas Jackson actually pulled Enzo Fernandez's shirt back onto his body as he was trying to take it off to celebrate the goal against first. When Nicholas Jackson is doing that, of all people, you, you really know that the, the arc of maturation is, is coming along nicely. You know, some of that might be just individual players getting a bit older, getting a bit wiser and, and learning how to deal with these things better. But I think you'll again also have to credit the environment that Mareska's created and the culture that he's created. They all respect him tactically, but also I think in terms of his authority and as a result you're seeing a more serious team.
- [43:32]
Ayo Akinwolere
Okay, well, let's see where we are January 25th when they play Manchester City. Good chat gents. We appreciate your time. Liam, Phil, and also you guys. Thank you so much for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.
- [43:45]
Host
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [43:53]
Ayo Akinwolere
Is it.
- [43:53]
Host
A stay in or a go out kind of Friday night? The choice is yours.
- [43:57]
Enzo Maresca
Find the detail that moves you with three times points on dining, including takeout.
- [44:01]
Host
Out from Chase Sapphire Reserve. Learn more@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by.
- [44:05]
Liam Toomey
JP Morgan Chase bank and a member.
- [44:06]
Host
FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply.
- [44:08]
Enzo Maresca
This podcast is brought to you by Aura. By the time you hear about a data breach, your information has already been exposed for months. On average, companies take 277 days to report a breach. That's nine months where hackers have access to your personal data. That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Aura is an all in one digital safety solution that monitors the dark web for your phone number, email and Social Security number, sending real time alerts if your info is found. It also includes a vpn, password manager and data broker removal to help keep you safe for a limited time. Aura is offering a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked. All for free@aura.com safety that's aura.com safety to sign up and protect your loved ones. That's a u r a.com safety. Terms apply. Check the site for details.