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- [00:00]
Shopify Advertiser
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- [01:33]
Raj Panjabi
Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.
- [01:36]
Noah Michaelson
And I'm Noah Michaelson, also from HuffPost.
- [01:38]
Raj Panjabi
And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [01:45]
Noah Michaelson
Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.
- [01:53]
Raj Panjabi
And we're talking like legit credible experts.
- [01:56]
Noah Michaelson
Doctors, PhDs all around superheroes from HuffPost and Acast Studios. Check out Am I Doing It Wrong? Wherever you get your podcasts, this podcast.
- [02:05]
Aura Advertiser
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- [03:00]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [03:08]
Adam Leventhal
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast. I'm Adam Levanthal. No matter where he's managing, Jose Mourinho simply cannot stay out of the headlines.
- [03:17]
Rory Smith
Fenerbachi manager Chesay Mourinho has been handed a four match ban and fined 35,000 pounds after comments he made about rivals.
- [03:25]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Galatasaray as well as the standard of Turkish refereeing.
- [03:29]
Adam Leventhal
His time managing in the Turkish Super League has seemed more of the same. So is this typical Jose or is he a victim of the chaos that surrounds him? Well, with me today we have the athletics, Rory Smith and Andy Mitton. Now, for people who haven't followed this particular story about Jose Mourinho, he's now the manager of Fenerbahce. He, he played rivals Galatasaray on February 24. It was a nil, nil draw. But so much happened as a result of the game. Mourinho was banned for four matches by the Turkish Football Federation, given a hefty fine for remarks about the fourth official and also for what Galatasaray alleged to be racist statements. Well, Fenerbahce said that Mourinho's comments were taken completely out of context and deliberately distorted. While Mourinho has filed a compensation lawsuit against Galatasaray due to an attack on his personal rights. And lastly, that initial suspension of four games has now been reduced to two on appeal. Now, Andy, we've got all that out of the way. You were actually at the game and you had a front row ticket for Jose Mourinho in action. Just, just take us into that moment if you can. First up.
- [04:46]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Well, if you want atmosphere, Fenerbahce, Galatasaray or Galatasaray, Fenerbahce, as I should say, because it was a home game. Galatasaray, it's one of the best in the world and it's one of the few big derby games that I've not been to. I've watched football in Turkey many times. I've always loved the atmosphere there. It's top three in the world. It is that good. And there are Man United players who will say the best atmosphere they ever played in front of was in Turkey, be it at Besikas, Fenerbahce, Galatasaray. I was there along with 52,000 others, including 2,000 traveling Fenerbachi supporters. I was probably one of the few people not smoking, or so it seemed to me when I was in the stadium. And just in front of me was the Galatasarai bench, which was animated throughout. And just to my right was the Fenerbahce bench. I was struck by how I didn't see Jose Mourinho until the game started. And I just thought, he's wisely waiting in the shadows here. He knows he's going to be center of attention. I'd be stunned if he didn't become centre of attention. So where on earth is he? And then the game started and then I just saw him, and right from the off he was objecting to the animated Fenerbahce bench. Galatasarai bench, sorry. And then there were various moments of tension where decisions were disputed. At one point, the Galatasaray bench surged forward and one of the people on it, I think it was a substitute, was giving it. Hold me back now. Hold me back now. And nobody did hold him back. And he just turned and went back to the bench. So I'm observing it all, thinking, this is so theatrical and so exaggerated. And it was a nil, nil draw. So neither team won, but Navy team lost as well. But Mourinho was brought in to make Fenerbahce champions again. They've got a huge wage, Bill, they've got lots of star players, and despite getting 99 points last season, they still couldn't win. The Turkish Super League goes to solos.
- [06:58]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, and we'll get stuck into this sort of the dynamics in. In Turkish football over the course of this episode. But just briefly, Rory, if you can, because we'll go into this in a little bit more detail a little bit later on, but on the refereeing issue in Turkey for that game, in particular, Slovenian Slavko Vinic was in charge of the derby because both clubs had requested a. A foreign official. Just briefly explain how this decision was even thought about in the first place, let alone happening, you know, briefly is.
- [07:28]
Rory Smith
Tricky with the issue of referees in Turkey, but in this specific incident, you'd had a number of kind of allegations of favorable refereeing towards Galatasaray, others favorable refereeing towards Fenerbahce, and the whole thing had become so kind of swaddled. In controversy and so toxic and so kind of such a flashpoint that both Galatasaray and Feneracci, I think initially as a kind of posturing move, said that they didn't trust any Turkish referee to take charge of the game, that they couldn't be sure that a Turkish referee would be impartial. And eventually, when both clubs filed petitions, the Turkish Football Federation, I think to an extent, called their bluff and said, okay, we'll get a foreigner to do it. And they went for Slavko Vinicic, who is, I suppose, one of the more high profile referees in Europe at the moment. I personally feel I could walk down the street and not recognize him. But maybe other people feel differently. Really big fans of referees. He did the Champions League final last year. So I guess if you don't get a refere referee, a foreign referee, you might as well go and get the one who did the most high profile game of 2024. And he was brought in. Apparently it was reported in Turkey for a fee of €10,000 plus an €800 a day per diem, which seems relatively generous to me. Istanbul's not that expensive. Along with two assistants. And the idea was that having a Slovenian, having a foreigner, first time in more than half a century that a foreign referee has taken charge of a Turkish League game. The idea was that that would. Trying to circumvent the endless refereeing conspiracies that now appear in Turkish football with, even by the standards of Turkish football, alarm in regularity.
- [09:04]
Adam Leventhal
Andy, in terms of the. The allegations of racism from Galatasaray about Mourinho, he basically said that their bench was jumping like monkeys. And he says that it was out of context. Only he knows why he chose those words. You saw what was happening. What was your impression of what was happening?
- [09:29]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Both benches disputing most decisions. I used the word animated before the Galatasaray bench was at it right from the start. I was sat 5 or 10 meters behind them. I was really, really close to them. And the atmosphere, it was vicious. I was surrounded by Galatasaray supporters. I knew it was going to be like this. I didn't feel it was. It was dangerous. But then at the start of the second half, Fenerbahce supporters started throwing flares down into Galatasarai fans. And I did think, now that's dangerous, because if you're being hit by a lit flare, then that can potentially be very, very dangerous. The security operation was vast. I saw accurately reported figures of 8,000, not 800, 8,000 security personnel. And there wasn't just a line of police between the pitch and the supporters. Even the supporters in the VIP seats, which are like $500, there were two or three lines. And I'm thinking, what a waste of resources. But then I'm not the match commander and I'm not familiar and I'm not at every game, but that Galatasaray bench, they were extremely animated throughout the game. And I would say from about the midway point in the first half, Jose Mourinho started objecting to them and was going to the. The. The other official and pointing to them and saying, this is ridiculous, this is ridiculous. And at first I thought Mourinho is the cool customer here, but he was objecting to. To most decisions. And then towards the end, when I thought that Fenerbahce might nick a goal, which would have been a. It would have closed the gap at the top, right up, I thought, Mourinho's done one on him here. He's really got under their skin. We know that he likes doing that. And they're going to nick a late goal. Alas, it didn't happen. But there was tension between the two benches throughout the night.
- [11:30]
Adam Leventhal
Mourinho getting under people's skin, that's basically his thing, isn't it, Rory? It has been his thing for years and years and years. So he's not. He's not changed. And the environment in Turkey is almost perfect for him.
- [11:45]
Rory Smith
Yeah, I think I might have said at some point, and it's a little bit glib and maybe I should regret it, that it's almost as though Turkish football is kind of where Mourinho naturally belongs. You know, we've seen for years and years and years that when players need to rehabilitate their reputation, or sometimes when they're looking for a final kind of payday at the end of their careers, they want to stay in a major footballing culture, but perhaps not one that's quite at the level of. Of England or Italy or Spain or Germany. They. They will look to Turkey, where often wages can be high, tax can be quite low, and you see it almost as a kind of twilight thing. With Mourinho, it feel felt almost as though he's been building, like getting himself ready to manage one of Istanbul's Big Three, like making sure he can cause enough trouble to really make the most of that position. I think with Mourinho that the sensible interpretation is maybe that he. He needs someone to rage against Mourinho. I think that's Kind of where he. He draws his inspiration. If you think of someone like Guardiola is maybe trying to kind of live up to the ideals of Cruyff or institute his vision for perfect football, that's kind of his broader inspiration for getting up in the morning. With Mourinho, he kind of needs to prove someone wrong. He needs to prove that he is the underdog, the oppressed, the person who's trying to overturn the regime. I'll not make a political joke there. Get me in trouble. That is kind of what Mourinho does. It's what he wants to do. And I think in England, in Italy, in Spain, at various times, it's grated with people. Fans have found it frustrating, but at the same time, he's been undeniably box office. I think the danger in Turkey is that he is in an environment that is already so charged, where the context is really different, even to English football and Italian football and Spanish football are all played out to a backdrop of ridiculous hype. But Turkey is another level. The. The tension in the air generally is a little bit more volatile. And I do wonder whether Mourinho, in that environment, doing just reasonably regular, like Mourinho stuff, the consequences are a little bit more severe.
- [13:43]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah. Do. Do you agree with that, Andy, having been there and seen it and. And how he's operating? Because, as Rory said, he's done some sort of more fun, trivial things, putting the laptop in front of the camera during a game to show the decision that had gone against his team, etc. Etc. But do you get the feeling that he's. He's very close to the line, or is he just playing that different role of, I'm going to prod them when I. When I need to and when I want to?
- [14:10]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Rory's right. He's in an environment which is more charged and less reasonable than the environments that he's working in front of. So both clubs agreed that Slovenian referee would be a good thing. I spent the day with Galatasaray fans and the hospitality there, I've got to say, is fantastic. And they were suspicious that the Slovenian referee somehow had a link to Fenerbahce. And I have no doubt that if I spoke to Fenerbahce fans, they would tell me exactly the same the other way around. And the length that these conspiracies went to. I just started laughing. And I'm meeting people who were literally saying, I don't use that airline because it's owned by a Galatasaray supporter. I only use this hire car company because they sponsor Galatasarai shirts even though it's more expensive. I met a lady who lives in London, has a very good job, a very sensible, well educated lady who said to me, I'm single, but I refuse to date Fenerbahce supporters. And my mother said, this is ridiculous. You need to grow up. You need to widen the pool. And she said, I will not compromise here. This was an intelligent person. And I said, you know, I'd like to put that in my article. She said, fine, I'd be really proud. And when it was published, she's like, why did you put my second name? I'm completely proud about this. I'm like, well, okay, that's fine. This is the environment now. Galatasaray have got a better team than Fenerbahce. So Mourinho has got to use everything he can. Galatasaray have been the preeminent force. Fenerbahce, I've got all the star names. They have been effective, more effective in Europe. So going into that game, Galatasaray just been knocked out of the Europa League just a few days before. Fenerbachi had progressed. Beshitkas had gone out a few weeks earlier. So they're your big three in. In Turkey. And even then that wasn't straightforward because I'd meet Galatasarai fans who were uncertain about their very successful coach because he didn't think he takes European football seriously. All the more sensible ones would say, we don't have a squad for European football as well. We have to prioritize winning the Turkish League. Whereas Fanobachi fans were gloating because they've gone further this year in European football than any other Turkish thing. Nothing at all seems to be at face value. And it's very interesting to the other derbies in the world because it isn't based on. On class or religion or geography. Anyone can be anyone. And often when I write about derbies, I would say, you know, I had to support this team because my father or my mother said, you don't get that in Istanbul. It's literally a free for all. And what attaches fans to their club. I've not seen that anywhere else in the world. And it's a wonderful football culture there. The passion is one of the best three in the world in terms of the atmosphere. The stadiums have all been modernized. Turkish companies, well, one of them is building camp now. They have excelled to the point that even Adana Sport, who visited Galatasaray a few weeks earlier that controversial game where the team went off, they're playing in wonderful, wonderful stadiums with 30 or 40,000 capacities. But in terms of the stature of the club, it falls away very quickly. You've got Galatasaray average 48,000, Fenerbahce 42, Besikast 35. Then you've got traps on spoor and then it falls right down. And the league average is only 12,000. So I saw a game between Beschicast and Eyup Spo and I'd just like.
- [17:49]
Rory Smith
To give them Yorkshire's national team.
- [17:50]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Exactly. Why didn't I realize that when I was there? Ey up, spo. They weren't founded in Burnley, they were founded in Istanbul. They're managed by Arda Turan. I went to see him as well. And there are only 3,000 people there. So for this football mad country, there are also little idiosyncrasies as well.
- [18:09]
Adam Leventhal
And it's interesting with Jose Mourinho, we saw that in his first unveiling, didn't we, that he was really playing up to the crowd. And you thought, yeah, he's at home here. And it goes back to the Mourinho that we were first introduced to in England when he took over at Chelsea. Even though we'd seen a glimpse of his sort of antics at Porto before. Let's just have a little reminder of his box office moments at Chelsea.
- [18:34]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
We have the first title and almost for sure we will have the second one. And the second one will be the big one.
- [18:40]
Rory Smith
You sound as though you're feeling the pressure.
- [18:43]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
I'm not feeling the pressure. No. You cannot put pressure on me. No chance. No chance. I read a lot of times during this week that I have to prove a lot in English football. Sir Alex is the only one European champion in this country, nobody else. So I have to prove what.
- [19:02]
Rory Smith
Congratulations.
- [19:03]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
More. Thanks a lot, Rory.
- [19:05]
Adam Leventhal
Do you think now he's in Turkey he's still able to operate in the way that he would like in press conferences, which he uses in whatever way he wants.
- [19:16]
Rory Smith
I think he is himself, isn't he? Jose Mourinho isn't able to change. There is no. He's had various points in his career where he's sort of trying to play the elder statesman and it lasts for a couple of weeks and then he can't quite resist. And that's. That's kind of. Mourinho is part of his charm.
- [19:33]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
As.
- [19:33]
Rory Smith
As Andy says, it's kind of part of his Arsenal. It's something that he, he has previously weaponized to great effect. And he is really good at creating those kind of siege mentalities. He can be cheeky and charming when he wants to be. He can be aggravating and provocative when he wants to be as well. He's often deeply unreasonable. He's sometimes quite funny. He is kind of. That's his character and that's what he brings. I think it maybe loses its charm a little bit as he gets older. When he's not the. You know, you've got to remember that when he went into. When he went in at Chelsea, he was the young, thrusting usurper of the old order, wasn't he? He was the outsider. He. He had to kind of convey that impression of himself, to kind of establish his credentials. Growing up against Rallis, Ferdison and Arsene Wender and these, These kind of great figures of coaching, he wanted to project himself as. I am young and I'm exciting and I'm. I'm the new thing on the new kid on the block. Now that he's kind of in his 60s, there is part of me that thinks, right, maybe you need to kind of wind this in a little bit now. It's kind of an old shtick. But the crucial thing in Turkey is, and Andy's mentioned this as well, it plays differently. It's. It's really, really fine in England to kind of toy with that idea of conspiracy, to, to suggest that some, some dark force is acting against you, because as, as ridiculous as English football culture has become, it is still grounded to some extent in reason. As much as people won't necessarily believe it, there are reasonable voices out there. There are reasonable opinions to be had. There's almost. This sounds a bit kind of overblown, but there's like a shared reality that we operate in. It's the same in Spain. Ish. It depends how much real Madrid TV you watch. But it's all basically the same in Spain, certainly the same in Germany. Even in Italy, where there is, you know, happy talk of conspiracy all the time. It doesn't go to a certain level in Turkey. The context is completely different. And I don't know whether Mourinho would. Would necessarily have been advised this way, but I suspect someone should probably have told him. You might have to tone this down because what you say will carry an echo much further in Turkey than it does elsewhere.
- [21:38]
Adam Leventhal
Currently, Mourinho's Fenerbahce are four points back from, from the leaders Galatasaray. So it's, It's a close race in Terms of the European side of things squeaked through. They play Rangers in the last 16 of the Europa League and then intriguingly, and I think secretly everyone would love all of this to. To fall into place. They could face his last three clubs in management, Roma in the quarterfinals, Manchester United in the semi finals, and spurs in the final final. Andy, I mean, are people already talking about that is. Do you sense that he's sort of privately talking about that as well? What a dream scenario that may well be.
- [22:19]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Yeah. The big issue there is Manchester United are not very good, so the idea of them getting through to play these games isn't quite as realistic as it may have been. Mourinho's always been very complimentary about his former clubs when he's moved on, and he said that getting Manchester United to second in the Premier League was his greatest achievement in management. And not sure I fully believe that, but I went to see Ole Gunnar Solskjaer when I was in Istanbul and that's something that he picked up on as well. Solskjaer has been very clever, or maybe he's just been himself by staying out of this whole Fenerbahce, Galatasaray thing. People are trying to pull him into it all the time, every single day. And even me as an outside journalist, because one thing I've found about Turkish football fans, they really value what people outside Turkey think of them. Perception is really important. And I know that, Adam, you went to Hatay province after the earthquake and that was really appreciated. Somebody said that to me, just me being there. I could see large Turkish accounts saying, andy Mitton, the famous BBC journalist, of which I'm not, by the way. I do some freelance work for the BBC, but I'm not linked with the BBC, is now in Turkey writing about our club. And anyone who met me, the first thing they said, who'd you support here? Nobody. I mean, I don't really hide who I support like some journalists do. People gave me a Galatasaray scarf. I'm like, thank you, I really appreciate that, but I really don't want to be pictured with that because I'm not a Galatasaray supporter. I respect Galatasaray. Ah, you must be Fenerbahce, because of Solskjaer. Sorry, Bishikkas, but I'm not a Besikkas fan either. That means that you're Fenerbahce because you're not one of the other two. No, I'm not, actually. And even people, journalists seeing me talking to Solsha meant that I Started getting a lot of messages in the following days. Could you confirm that Solskjaer is not going back to Man United? Well, no, I can't because, I mean, where's this come from? He's just arrived here, so it's this environment sped up. Graham Sooner said to me last year about Istanbul, which he still visits once a year. And he's a big hero to Galatasaray fans because he planted the Galatasaray flag in the middle of Fenerbahce center circle. He described it as London on steroids. And there is this incredible energy and it's the biggest city in Europe in terms of population. Certainly got the biggest traffic jams as well. It is a fantastic place and Solskjaer was really drawn towards that. He set out, I want to live there, I want to manage there. It's probably the opposite of where he's been for the last three years in a sleepy, provincial Norwegian town. And of course they pay well and of course the tax regime is favorable if you come in outside of the country as well. But they can offer top European football. Incredible atmosphere, big stadiums, big city living, big rivalries. There are lots of pluses to Turkish football as well.
- [25:19]
Adam Leventhal
On the way you alluded to it there, Andy, we will be catching up with how another former Manchester United manager is getting on in Turkey.
- [25:34]
LinkedIn Advertiser
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- [26:54]
Raj Panjabi
Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.
- [26:56]
Noah Michaelson
And I'm Noah Michelson, also from HuffPost.
- [26:58]
Raj Panjabi
And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [27:05]
Noah Michaelson
Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.
- [27:13]
Raj Panjabi
And we're talking like legit credible experts.
- [27:16]
Noah Michaelson
Doctors, PhDs all around superheroes from HuffPost and Acast Studios. Check out Am I Doing It Wrong? Wherever you get your podcasts with an.
- [27:25]
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- [27:52]
Rory Smith
JP Morgan, Chase bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval.
- [28:02]
Adam Leventhal
So Andy, you mentioned that you had spent some time with Olegar Solskjaer, who's now the manager of Beiktas, also in Istanbul. Just tell us about that. And I suppose it was interesting from the article that you wrote that he bided his time in terms of the job that he eventually chose because he was actually a wanted man after leaving Manchester United.
- [28:28]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Yeah, he said that he'd had 40 offers. I knew about several of them at the time. Some were harder than others, but he kept getting offers. So why didn't he take them? Well, one, he didn't need the money and two, he felt the family hadn't always been first in a 25 year career in management and as a player. And I genuinely believed him when he said he was happy living in Norway, taking his kids to football training, taking them to European games because he is a complete football nerd. But, but Beshikas came for him three times and by the third time he's like, right, I'm ready to go this again. Because the longer you're out of football, the more difficult it is to get back into football. I'm sure that the, the financial package was attractive to him. He was also allowed to bring in his own coaches. So he's brought in people like Mike Marsh, who played for Liverpool, Richard Hartis, who's his longtime goalkeeping coach. He's a bit more than a goalkeeping coach, more of a right hand man. I bought Tom Green in, who was a senior analyst at Manchester United and I think his brief was bring some stability to somewhere, you know, which is not stable. Besik has had 10 different managers since Solskjaer left Manchester United, so that just shows what it's like. And on my previous visit to see Eric Bailly In November 23, I sensed that I was in a club where everyone's walking on eggshells. Lots of turbulence, a new president coming in or not, but seems to be a little bit more stable now. And he's had a great start. He's played nine, won seven, drawn one and lost one. And it was really different for me to go into a football club and he invited me in for breakfast and to meet all of his players, which as a journalist, you know, you really appreciate that level of access to go somewhere where there was a buzz because everyone was winning. Because I cover Manchester United a lot and it's been a while since it's been like that. In fact it's been since Solskjaer came back in in 2018 and at the start of 2019 he's loving it there. He feels that he's back doing the job that he loves. He likes being on the training ground, he loves young players. There's three or four players there where he's thinking these I am going to make them my, you know, my Rashford, my. And he mentioned a couple of other players who he'd work with at Manchester United and you could see that he gets a buzz out of putting a 19 year old in and watching them thrive. And he's got some experienced players who are in the early 30s as well. His issue is that they're a long way behind the big two in terms of their resources. Fenoback and Galatasaray have got the biggest wage bill, but by a mile. But Bess are somewhat expected to to compete with them. They won the cup last year under Giovanni Van Bronkhorst. Their stadium has got the most enviable position overlooking the Bosphorus. The fans are as passionate as the other two and he's really enjoying it. Is he going to stay there long term? I don't know the answer to that, but I saw a man who's really enjoying his job and it was good to see.
- [31:38]
Adam Leventhal
Rory, you mentioned, you know, where being manager of Fenerbahce fits into the arc of Jose Mourinho's career in comparison with where managing Besiktas now is for Ole Gunnar Solskjaerk. Do you think it could be restorative? Do you think he would ever be considered as a Premier League manager again? It may not be his. His target. He probably wouldn't want to manage anyone else in the Premier League apart from Manchester United. But where do you think it fits in for his career?
- [32:06]
Rory Smith
Well, it might be. Might be a job of Man United coming up relatively soon. You never know the.
- [32:10]
Adam Leventhal
He could just go back.
- [32:11]
Rory Smith
Yeah, well, to be fair, I think it is. This is kind of tangential, but I think what Solskjaer did at United is probably being made to look quite a lot better by what's happened since, to be perfectly honest, that it's becoming increasingly clear that we shouldn't really judge the people who have inadverted commas failed at Manchester United as kind of the source of the failure, the cause of the problems, when it looks like they are so evidently systemic. Yeah. For Mourinho, Fenerbahce is. Is a. It's. I don't want to say it's a final payday, but it's a stop as his career declines. I think that's. That's abundantly obvious. I know he said that he's. He's keen to come back to the Premier League. I'm not. I'm not quite sure I see where that might happen. He'd probably have to drop his expectations in terms of competing and stuff fairly far to get to get back to England. For Solskjar, I think Bess is a way to. He doesn't necessarily need to rehabilitate his reputation, but maybe to get himself back on that track that, as Andy says, be Itas is a huge club, it's a huge European force. They will expect to play European football. Maybe not Champions League immediately, but Europa League, Conference League, certainly next season. They expect to compete for honours in Turkey. Even if Andy says financially, economically, they're very much the third wheel. It's a way for him to. To get a high profile, high pressure job and proof he can make a success of it. And it may well be that. I mean, we kind of have to say or, you know, he might want to stay at Beitas for 10 years. No one's managing a Turkish club for 10 years. That's not the point of Turkish football. But it may well be that he sees himself there for a couple of years, two or three years, which would be a really good stint in, in Istanbul for anyone. And then it might be that Germany or Spain or France or Italy or yeah, perhaps England comes back into view. I think Solskjaer will feel Andy knows him much better than I do. I suspect Solskjaer will feel he's got more to give in the big five leads of Western Europe. Doing well at Beiktas is a really good way to say to potential employers, I can cope with this pressure. I can cope with these expectations. And given a. This is mad to say this of a team in Istanbul, a more kind of smoothly run team than Manchester United, I can do really good work. And that is what. That's what. Besittas is probably one of the few clubs in Europe where you can reasonably say, if I can cope with the pressure here, I can cope with the pressure pretty much anywhere. And that is, I think that's probably a fair thing to assume that if you can deal with Beetas, with any of those Turkish teams, you can deal with pretty much anything.
- [34:39]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
You're right, Rory, in everything you say that Solskjaer is a great people's person. Players really respond to them. It gets them smiling. There was a lot of criticism towards the end of his time at Manchester United that somehow he was tactically anemic. So one thing he did, he got a job as UEFA technical observer. He went deep into tactics. He'd like chide me saying, what do you know about tactics? And I'm like, well, I've not got a UE for a license like you, but this and that. And he'd wind me up about it. So there's a good side to his personality as well. Incredibly loyal, refused a moldy job in December. I've respect to his former assistant who'd lost his job. That former assistant is now his assistant in Turkey. So that's someone who's managed Molder in European football. So as soon as Bashikas fans saw the. The standard of people going in there, they're like, okay, this is interesting. And Ollie knows some coaches who they. They hate the media side of everything, but he's quite comfortable with it all. And on Friday night I saw him complimenting the ground staff of the opposition for getting a game on during snowbound conditions in Istanbul, which is pretty rare. And I thought that's a really simple thing to do, but it just shows his appreciation. And you could see the Turkish journalist really warming to that. And he is just being himself. But Rory is absolutely right. He still feels he's got a lot to offer. He does speak German. That was a country which. Which interested him. Although he turned a couple of jobs down in Germany. There was a point in March of last year where he was being linked to Bayern Munich and he said to me, where's this coming from? I said, I don't know. Well, you're not much of a journalist if you don't know. I said, well, it's not coming out of England. And I did a bit of digging and it was coming out of Munich. I said, my advice to you is say absolutely nothing. Because that is like me being linked to Elizabeth early. Let people say that all day long. He's like, well, what do you mean? I said, well, if you got the Bayern job, I don't think Bayern fans would be delighted that you've become their new manager. This is your level. But if in a few months time you got another job in the Bundesliga, their fans might say, well, he was linked to Bayern Munich. He must be good. So it's the optics of it all. And he didn't say anything and he carried on turning jobs down. I know that Spain has always been attractive to him, but I also know he doesn't speak Spanish. I find it quite interesting that Hansi Flick's gone into Barcelona, communicates entirely in English. So that's another thing. The anglification and English language being even more prevalent in dressing rooms around the world. So Solskjaer is speaking to his players in English, and of course there are Turkish translators there as well. But this is becoming more normalized in leagues well away from England. He's still ambitious. He was burned a little bit by the Man United experience in the end, but it was only that last six weeks. And even in the interview we did for the Athletic, he referred to Man United as we. And I said we. He said we. I'm like, okay, you've just about ruled out. Ever manage in Manchester City and Liverpool then? And he was quite comfortable with that.
- [38:02]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, we will see what happens with Ole Gunnar Solskjaer in the future. You never know, he might end up back at Old Trafford. Coming up next, we are just going to get back into Turkish football and its difficult relationship with refereeing.
- [38:27]
Raj Panjabi
Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.
- [38:29]
Noah Michaelson
And I'm Noah Michaelson, also from HuffPost.
- [38:31]
Raj Panjabi
And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [38:38]
Noah Michaelson
Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.
- [38:46]
Raj Panjabi
And we're talking like legit, credible experts, doctors, PhDs all around.
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Noah Michaelson
Superheroes from HuffPost and Acast Studios. Check out Am I Doing It Wrong? Wherever you get your podcasts, this podcast.
- [38:58]
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- [39:57]
Rory Smith
Right.
- [39:57]
Adam Leventhal
Time now to hear from Turkish journalist Engin Kohali, who works for outlet TRT Sport. And we asked Engin about Turkish football's contentious and complex relationship with refereeing, which Jose Mourinho of course has been very vocal about.
- [40:14]
J
I think it has always been an issue, but in the last 10 years the conversations about the referees, the power of the club presidents to change the refereeing committees has been a major issue in Turkish football. From 2000 to 2025 there have been 22 different refereeing committees and if you change something that often, it's not easy to find a sustainable and successful infrastructure or any kind of system. This year with Jose Mourinho and Arjun Ujjali, one of the main topics has been the performance of refereeing on the pitch, which had a valid basis, I think these conversations, but at the same time with that pressure it's not easy to perform on the pitch. So Les Derby has been refereed by Vinic. I think he refereed a good game. But whatever they do with every call has been criticized that much with with the influence of social media in Turkish football now, every call there have been numerous clips on the social media criticizing the referee, whoever it is so that affected the club managements to vocally say the mistakes of the referees. I think it's not an easy situation for anyone. I mean, not the referees, not the presidents, not the players. But with that kind of tension and with that kind of rapid change on the refereeing committee, it's not easy to find balance. So I think it will take some time for the Turkish audience to start believing and trusting the refereeing system again. And I'm not pretty sure how this transition will start or how long it will take.
- [42:02]
Aura Advertiser
Yeah.
- [42:02]
Adam Leventhal
Thanks very much to Engin for his take on this. Rory, do you feel that it's broken? Is it irreparable? Especially when conspiracies are ruling a lot of parts of the world?
- [42:15]
Rory Smith
Yeah, it's really hard not to see the echoes. It always sounds so kind of pretentious and it feels like a bit of a stretch, even as you do it, when you say that kind of football has this remarkable habit, not just to reflect the world, but almost to foreshadow it. And it feels like you're kind of a sports journalist trying to be more important than you are, to be honest. But it happens all the time. And, yeah, it's really hard not to feel that the stuff we see playing out in US politics at the moment, in British politics, in global politics that affect, you know, wars and an actual kind of significant human events that you see, you do see little shadows of them in football. And quite often football was there first, to be perfectly honest. And in Turkey in particular, there is a culture of conspiracy. I went to Istanbul a little bit longer ago than Andy did for the New York Times, and I think I went, must have done late 2019, early 2020, it was just before the pandemic. And I met Arda Turan, as Andy did. This was before he was a manager. I had a lovely breakfast with Arda Turan. I can recommend having breakfast with Arda Turan, overlooking the Bosphorus as a life experience that everyone should have at least once. But also I spoke to dozens of people who work in clubs, who own clubs, who run teams, about the kind of the culture of conspiracy that had taken hold in Turkish football. And this was five years ago, and it was a real problem then. And I remember club owners of minor teams. And as Andy said earlier, these are often quite small teams. They're not massive stadiums, they're not massive fan bases. Turkey is dominated by those Bid three Istanbul clubs and to an extent, Trabzon sport. And they said that the basic issue was that nobody has any Faith in the legitimacy of the decisions. They don't believe that the results are real because they believe the referees are compromised. They're a kind of shadowy conspiracy, dark forces manipulating the outcome of results. Nobody really believes in the reality of the league. And what you get there is a kind of, if you want to put it in sort of brutally capitalist terms, you get an unattractive investment landscape does if you're a local hotel owner, as one guy I spoke to was, he. You know, he'd set up a. He owned a hotel. I think there was a little bit of family money, if I'm honest. But, you know, he. He owned a hotel in a resort town. He'd opened a few. Few other branches. He bought the local club, you know, to give back in inverted commas. Really. It was because he was the big local guy and he wanted the kind of the pomp and the ceremony and the circumstance that comes with owning the football team. And he was like, well, what. What's the point of this? Because everything is. Everything's arrayed against me. Does all the results, all the referees are a bore, or they're corrupt, or they're fixed, Everything's rigged in favor of Galatasaray or Fenerbahce, or all three Istanbul teams simultaneously, or all three Istanbul teams and Trabzon Sport. It means people don't invest. It means fans don't go to games. It means the TV deals are lower, means the product is worse. It means that Turkey, which is this, Zandi, says Istanbul is the biggest city in Europe. Turkey has got an enormous population, a huge football country, potentially a really kind of healthy, vibrant football market. And it's undermined by the fact that nobody believes in anything. And as an outsider, the frustrating thing is that to an extent, I think they've talked themselves into it, to be perfectly honest, that there is so much suspicion that everything is questioned, that you feel as though everything is a conspiracy. That. And Andy alluded to it earlier as well, that no one really believes in the truth of anything. And, yeah, that has become kind of, what, the default mode of politics, particularly in the last three months. You also see the kind of weaponization of fans, which I think is really important, that fans are used as the foot soldiers to kind of convey these suspicions.
- [45:37]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
You have club owners, club presidents, who are huge personalities. So I struggled to hear a Galatasaray song which wasn't about Fenerbahce's president, Ali Koch. So he's one of Turkey's wealthiest and most influential people and has a lot of control in the media. So that leads to even more suspicion from Galatasaray fans. And I quite innocently fancied putting a sample of the atmosphere out there on social media and said to my host, is this song, Is this not offensive? No, no, this is very offensive. Okay, what about this one? No, this is also very offensive as well. Okay, what about this one? No, no, this is also very offensive as well. And I literally didn't end up putting a song out there to showcase the incredible atmosphere. And also as a journalist, I was well aware that if I put anything out, I would be accused of siding with the others because. And I thought that that's not my intention either. So I went to see Arda Turan. And Rory's right, he's a real character and he was a fantastic player. Very interesting to interview. Very much an acolyte of the Diego Simeone, Luis Enrique school of management. Very passionate figure. And his club is owned by another very influential, very wealthy person. And yet everybody in Turkey knows that Arda Turan is Galatasaray because he was such a key player there. He was a ball boy there when he was a kid, even at the old Ali Sami Yen stadium. And he doesn't hide this. And why should he hide it? And everybody expects him at some point to become the coach of of Galatasaray. And that's spoken openly even at the club he's managing. It were fourth in the league. They were third until Besikas beat them away. So there's very much a pecking order and everyone's pretty comfortable of where your club is in this pecking order, apart from Galatasaray and Fenibachi supporters. And then you have Bishikas, as Rory says, they're a huge club. They're expected to compete as well. But even at the moment there's an acknowledgment that is very difficult for Bishikas to to win the league title. So it gets stretched so much that Galatasaray win the league on over 100 points last year. Fenerbach, you get 99 points. They still do not win the league. And as Rory said, it plays into the sort of the political mistrust. The conspiracy theories absolutely thrive there as well. The two clubs have got national support. Bishikkas Solskjaer told me, when we play away at X or Y, a nine hour drive from Istanbul, there will be more, but shit cast fans there. And I'm sure it's even more pronounced with Galatasaray and Fenerbach chief fans as well. So very interesting country economically, politically, historically.
- [48:25]
Adam Leventhal
Just a last point on this from both of you. I suppose in England, we got a taste of what it's like more frequently in Turkey. When we had the situation with Nottingham Forest complaining about referees, and that felt very strange in England. And it led to punishments and admonishment from the Premier League, from authorities, from everyone who wanted to say, hang on a minute, you can't be. You can't be speaking like this. Do you ever feel, Rory and Andy, that the situation in England will ever end up like it is in. In Turkey? Or is it something that is going to be their problem rather than a problem in. In the Premier League? Rory, let's start with you.
- [49:12]
Rory Smith
I think that it's really easy for us to Other Turkish football, and you see it a lot, and I'm sure I've been guilty of. Guilty of it at times as well, that you. You look at Turkey and if you orientalize it, you think, well, it's Turkey. It's exotic. It's a bit different. Obviously, it is part of Europe, but it's also kind of separate from Europe. It's.
- [49:30]
Noah Michaelson
It's.
- [49:30]
Rory Smith
Obviously, it's a secular country, but it's an. It's an Islamic country.
- [49:33]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
It's.
- [49:34]
Rory Smith
It's kind of spices and it's the Hagia Sophia and it's markets, and it's kind of. There is a degree, there's a temptation to look at Turkey and see and think they're different. They're not. I mean, obviously they are different countries and, you know, people are different all over the world, but there is no reason to believe that they are more susceptible to conspiratorial thinking than we are. And the piece I wrote last week, which took in what happened with Slavka Vincic and the Intercontinental Derby, it's not, I think, a coincidence that that has happened in the same season that Real Madrid have launched probably the most improbable war on refereeing and establishment conspiracy that there has ever been, and that Pablo Andori, the president of Marseille, has been banned for 15 games for alleging that French football is corrupt and that the referees are rigged against Marseille. AC Milan have kind of implied something a little bit softer, but they've done the same thing. They've kind of said, we need to speak to the referees about there being more respect for Milan as a club and Milan's players. There's a lot of clubs around Europe, including England, who are like, fiddling around with this stuff a little bit. You're not maybe not playing the full song yet, but they're kind of. They're working out what the chords are. We're seeing it more and more that. That everyone is happy to allege conspiracy. And I'm not sure that we should see Turkey as an outlier, as an exception. I think we should probably look at Turkey and think they're just further down the road than we are. They got there first. Because the problem with. With using that as a way to excuse your own failures, as a way to vent your own frustration, is that after a while your fans and the fans of other clubs start to believe it. And if we believe that football is just one giant conspiracy, that everything is rigged against us, then we have a problem not just with the. With the perception of integrity, but the perception of kind of the reality of the League. You get people not believing the results. And once you don't believe in the results of football, which we should all remember at all times, is an entirely voluntary activity, it's a leisure activity. We don't have to be interested in it, it's not compulsory, then people start queering what the point of being involved is. And that is really genuinely dangerous. I think it's a shame that owners, executives elsewhere and in Turkey don't seem to be able to resist kind of being swept along by that wave of, oh, this thing that we didn't like has happened, so therefore it must be conspiracy, rather than thinking, do you know what? Sometimes the world is a bit unfair and things happen that you don't like and not everything is perfect for you all of the time. The one piece of feedback I got quite a lot on that piece was that I left Arsenal out of it. And a lot of people were saying, we look at Arsenal, there's a conspiracy there. And Arsenal fans have. That's quite true. Kind of suggested that maybe PGMOell have been a bit harsh on them this season. I think it's one thing for fans to do it. It's not great, it's not a good look, doesn't make a huge amount of sense, but it's probably natural. But the fact that we're now seeing increasingly clubs and executives and presidents do it outside Turkey is really dangerous. And I think they would all do well to look at the situation in Turkey and think that is what we're toying with. Do we really want to get involved?
- [52:31]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
I think one of the reasons the Premier League is so popular internationally is because it's trusted. It seemed to be seen to be clean. There's a respect for it where results are trusted. Rightly or wrongly. So when a club like Nottingham Forest comes out openly and protests against referees, it's really rare because it's routine in some of the countries which Rory has mentioned, and it might be more of a southern Mediterranean thing. It's absolutely normal in Turkey. If you speak to fans, it's completely normal wherever you are. There are fans of every single football club who think the world is against them. Not just in referees, but in terms of the media. I remember writing for the Manchester Evening News where Manchester City fans were convinced it was a red leaning paper and Manchester United fans were convinced that it was a blue leaning paper. Now they both can't be right. The two things cannot be true. But this is the psyche of football fans and if Souness says Istanbul is London on steroids, then the football culture there is an exaggeration of what fans might think. And a lot of these presidents, they are fans themselves, they're very passionate. So some of the positives we take from Turkish football, such as the passion, which is a bit crazy at times, and it would probably give a health and safety inspector nightmares in England, to the point that the Premier League, it is a bit sanitized now and the atmosphere is not as good as it was and you better sit down there because you've just been stood up for 10 seconds. Some of the attractions that we find in, in Turkish football or Southern European football, it can also be, they can also be negatives because people say things that can lead ultimately to foreign referees being drafted in for your biggest game of the season. Even then, they couldn't escape the the conspiracies.
- [54:34]
Adam Leventhal
Andy, Rory Engin, thank you very much indeed. That's all for now. IO's going to be back tomorrow and I will catch you on the preview on Friday. Thanks for listening.
- [54:46]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [54:54]
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- [55:22]
Rory Smith
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- [56:18]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
ACAST powers the World's best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend. Hey folks, it's Marc Maron from WTF. It's been more than 15 years now, and I'm still talking to all kinds of people in my garage every week. Sometimes it's Bill Burr, sometimes it's Ariana Grande. She just looks at me because she's always going like, dad, it's not that big a deal.
- [56:42]
Rory Smith
Yeah.
- [56:42]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
I go, sorry, I lost my temper. I go, I still love you. You know, Daddy has issues.
- [56:48]
Aura Advertiser
Are you afraid of.
- [56:49]
Rory Smith
Of death?
- [56:50]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Well, I don't know. I think about it all the time.
- [56:52]
Raj Panjabi
How are we here already?
- [56:53]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Listen to WTF with Marc Maron twice a week on your favorite podcast app. Or get more WTF with a WTF plus subscription. Just go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.