Has Neymar delivered on the hype?

Summary

The Athletic FC Podcast: Has Neymar Delivered on the Hype? Release Date: February 11, 2025

Hosts and Guests:

• Ayo Akinwolere – Host
• Phil Hay – Lead Writer for The Athletic FC Newsletter
• Nathalie Giedra – Sky Sports Reporter and Brazilian Football Expert

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Introduction

In this episode of The Athletic FC Podcast, host Ayo Akinwolere delves deep into the career journey of Brazilian superstar Neymar Jr., focusing on his recent return to his boyhood club, Santos, after a tumultuous stint in Saudi Arabia. Joined by Phil Hay and Nathalie Giedra, the discussion navigates through Neymar's early promise, heightened expectations due to exorbitant transfer fees, and his struggle to live up to the hype amidst injuries and fierce competition.

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Neymar's Return to Santos

[01:32] Ayo Akinwolere:
Neymar's return to Santos has stirred mixed emotions among fans. Having spent 12 years away, the legendary forward's early return to Brazil raises questions about his motivations and future ambitions.

Nathalie Giedra describes the atmosphere as "bittersweet" but leans towards it being "sweeter than bitter," emphasizing the emotional connection Neymar has with the Brazilian fans and the strategic timing ahead of the 2026 World Cup.

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Neymar's Early Career and Expectations

[03:49] Ayo Akinwolere:
The conversation takes a nostalgic turn as Ayo reminisces about Neymar's dazzling performances during his early days at Santos, including the iconic goal against Flamengo that won him the Posca award.

[04:22] Nathalie Giedra:
Nathalie shares her firsthand experience interviewing a 14-year-old Neymar, highlighting his early promise and the immense expectations placed upon him from a young age. "He has been dealing with expectations ever since he was literally a kid," she notes.

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Physical Condition and Future Plans

[06:44] Nathalie Giedra:
Neymar's physical condition remains a concern. Despite being 33 and recently recovering from an ACL injury, Nathalie points out that Neymar is "not physically well" and has played limited minutes in weaker competitions.

She outlines Neymar's master plan: a six-month contract with Santos aiming for a return to a European club by mid-2025, positioning himself for the 2026 World Cup. This strategic move is seen as a way to rejuvenate his career and maintain his competitive edge on the international stage.

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Financial Aspects and Transfer Fees

[09:35] Ayo Akinwolere:
Phil Hay breaks down the financial side of Neymar's career, highlighting his £322 million cost to Al Hilal, despite making only seven appearances due to his ACL injury. He emphasizes the Saudi Pro League's strategy of attracting global icons for publicity, regardless of immediate on-field contributions.

Phil Hay elaborates, "Players like Neymar in Saudi Arabia mean that people talk and write about football in Saudi Arabia... it's purely for visibility."

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Comparisons to Other Players

[16:17] Phil Hay:
The discussion shifts to comparing Neymar with contemporaries like Messi and Ronaldo. Phil questions whether Neymar's career is overshadowed by playing alongside these legends. He asserts, "There's a lot of people were questioning whether that select group of two might have become three," referring to Messi, Ronaldo, and Neymar.

Nathalie Giedra agrees, noting, "The comparisons with Messi and Ronaldo... they are very committed to football and Neymar many times didn't show this same level of commitment."

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Mentality and Pressure

[29:05] Nathalie Giedra:
Nathalie delves into the psychological pressures Neymar faces due to his high transfer fees and the immense expectations they bring. She states, "It's a matter of mentality... it's not easy if it's a talking point."

The panel discusses how mental resilience and the right support system are crucial for players burdened by such immense financial and performance expectations.

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Other High-Fee Players: Dembele and João Félix

[23:34] Ayo Akinwolere:
The conversation broadens to other high-profile players like Ousmane Dembele and João Félix, analyzing how their careers have been impacted by hefty transfer fees and expectations.

Phil Hay highlights Dembele's journey, "He struggled to live up to the billing at the Nou Camp, but... he's been coming into his own and at 27 he really should be hitting his prime."

[35:26] Nathalie Giedra:
Nathalie expresses hope for João Félix's integration at AC Milan, suggesting that a better-suited playing style and environment could help him realize his potential.

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Upcoming Talents and Future Outlook

[42:32] Nathalie Giedra:
Looking ahead, Nathalie mentions emerging Brazilian talents like Endrick and Estevan, emphasizing their potential to carry forward Brazil's rich football legacy. "They are blown away by him on training... very focused."

Phil Hay draws parallels with Jude Bellingham, discussing how some young players thrive under high expectations due to their confidence and exceptional abilities.

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with reflections on Neymar's intrinsic belief in his capabilities despite external pressures. Nathalie Giedra concludes, "He trusts himself... confidence is not a problem for him."

Ayo Akinwolere underscores the duality of fan expectations and player aspirations, leaving listeners with a nuanced understanding of Neymar's career trajectory and the broader implications of high transfer fees on player performance and mental health.

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Notable Quotes:

• Nathalie Giedra [02:26]: "It's sweeter than bitter."
• Phil Hay [09:35]: "It's a weird world, but the world is weird."
• Phil Hay [16:17]: "There's a lot of people were questioning whether that select group of two might have become three."
• Nathalie Giedra [29:05]: "It's a matter of mentality... it's not easy if it's a talking point."
• Nathalie Giedra [41:03]: "I do believe that he trusts himself... confidence is not a problem for him."

---

This comprehensive discussion provides listeners with an in-depth analysis of Neymar's career, the weight of expectations tied to exorbitant transfer fees, and the psychological challenges faced by top-tier footballers in the modern game. Through expert insights and candid conversations, the podcast paints a compelling picture of what it truly means to be a global football icon.

Transcript

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[Ayo Akimwalere]

The Athletic FC Podcast Network welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimwalere. That's the sound of Santosis fans welcoming back club legend Neymar after 12 years away. So why is he back in Brazil and why did it go so wrong in Saudi Arabia? And how hard is it for players to live up to exorbitant price tags? Right with us today we have lead writer for the Athletic FC newsletter, Phil Hay, plus Sky Sports reporter and Brazilian football expert Nathalie Giedra. Natalie, let's get into this. Since you're the Brazilian on the panel, we have to talk. Neyrima what is it like seeing Neymar back in Santos? Bittersweet to see him coming home a bit earlier than anticipated.

[Nathalie Giedra]

Maybe bittersweet is a good definition. Yes, it is. It is weird because no one really thought that he would go back so early, but at the same time there's a big commotion around him being back in Brazil because, well, mostly Brazilians, we lose our idols very, very early. They leave really early to go to Europe to play in bigger leagues. So we missed seeing those players so close. And, and to be fair, Neymar, he. He exploded and he, he stayed a bit in, in Santos before he moved to Barcelona, but there is this commotion around him being back, and it's kind of a fairy tale story, so that kind of moves people as well. This is the sweet part of, of having Neymar back, because if it was any other team, if it was Palmeiras or Flamengo, because they speculated a lot around Neymar being a Palmeiras fan when he was a, when he was a kid. And Flamingo always bringing the stars back. If it was that, I don't think. I think a lot of people would be annoyed. But with Neymar back, and this is very important, a year and a half to the next World cup, and this is key. So, so there is. There is there. It's a bittersweet feeling, but it's. It's sweeter than bitter.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

Okay, I like that. Look, there will be a lot of people that probably don't remember Neymar at Santos. I'm thinking much younger listeners here, but just take us back to Neymar's early days in Santos. His numbers were amazing. I mean, so many videos of him doing amazing things, but also an absolute joy to watch. Everyone remembers that famous goal against Flamengo which won the Poscas award.

[Nathalie Giedra]

Well, I'm gonna give away my age here because the first time I, I interviewed neymar, he was 14 and, and I was an intern. I was 20. And he was already a big thing. He already visited Real Madrid. We'd had pictures of him with the Galacticos. We, we heard stories about big European clubs trying to already sign him in the future and trying to, you know, convince him that he would have to play at Madrid or Barcelona or whatever. He was a huge deal. I remember his first game as a professional, and when he entered the pitch, everybody was already expecting. We've been hearing about him for so long, so he has been dealing with expectations ever since he was literally a kid, ever since he came through Santos academy and then he played brilliantly at Santos and he, he played with. With a lot of joy always. And that, that, that drew comparisons with, with Ronaldinho. There were a lot of comparisons and references involving Neymar, but the Ronaldinho one is, is big because it wasn't so long ago that we saw Ronaldinho at his peak. And you mentioned the Flamengo match. I was reporting on that match and I had the privilege to, to. To see the Pushka as well.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

You saw it in person?

[Nathalie Giedra]

Yes, at Villabio and that match because it was Neymar against Ronaldinho for the first time. Ronaldinho was playing for Flamingo, so it was kind of a video game match in this sense, you know, because you saw those individual moments happening all the time and it was so entertaining and so many goals and, and we wanted to see those, those two. Neymar wasn't a legend, but he was becoming one. And Ronaldinho was already Ronaldinho of course. So, so yeah, ever since he breakthrough in Brazil there was always a lot involving Neymar and expectations. He had to. To live with that his. His whole career.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

Well, let's briefly talk about why he's come back to his boyhood club, Santos. He's 33, not long ago recovered from an ACL and I'm hoping at the time of recording he's not injured again because you never know with Neymar. But you know, is it. Is he physically well, do you think maybe that a league that's probably not as demanding potentially it's probably worth coming back home a bit early for.

[Nathalie Giedra]

Okay. He's not physically well and he's the first one to say it. He has. He's got no rhythm right now. He played a few minutes against very weak teams. He played a few minutes against Botafogo who plays the fourth division of. Of the National League. And then he played against nobody's on chino, I think 81 minutes and it was both draws. Santos doesn't have a good team. He's playing state championship. He's not playing the National League. The National League hasn't started. Brazilian calendar is a mess. So he's playing state championship is weaker teams. He's gonna play Corinthians soon. So this is going to be a bigger test for him. But it's not expected for him to. To. To deliver physically so quickly. But there is a master plan here and ideally he doesn't talk openly about it because he has a six month contract with Santos. So in theory he's staying at Santos until the the. Until June. And then ideally he will play well in this month and he will sign a contract with an European club. That's the idea. That's the plan. So he can play one year in Europe in high level and get to 2026 playing in a very high level because maybe it's not his last World cup. At the age of 34, 35. There is a possibility of Course, especially with his injury history, but maybe it's the last World cup that he will play in a very high level. He's not Cristiano Ronaldo, you know, in terms of taking care of his body and never getting injured. And he's had this. This physical issue. So. So that's the plan. This is why he's. He's back to Santos. He could play at the mls, he could play somewhere else, but at Santos, he. It's his home. He feels comfortable. He feels loved. He fell out of football massively. And now that he's back and he's loved and everybody's so excited to see Neymar, there's this huge hope that him going back to Santos can link up to Brazil winning the World cup in 2026. That is a stretch, but that is how people see it.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

Okay. You're keeping the dream alive for all those Brazilian fans. Natalie. Right, Phil. This is a player that's been injured a lot, but also a player that's made a hell of a lot of money. Let's just rack up some of the numbers from his recent stint in Saudi Arabia, which, by the way, saw him make just seven appearances, mostly due to his ACL injury. So at Al Hilal, they paid 77 million to sign him from PSG on a Sally of around 2.5 million a week. So he'll be paid 85% of that for the remainder of this season. Meaning, Phil, that he has cost the club £322 million. I mean, for a player that's not played much football, that's a hell of a lot of money.

[Unknown]

Easy money for Neymar and easy money for psg. And I don't think there'll be too much sympathy for Al Hilal given the amount of money that seems to be available. This is the risk that the people driving the Saudi pro league are willing to take, or perhaps be fairer to say, this is the trade off that they're willing to make the paying vast sums and in some cases, well above true market value or European. European market value to entice players like Neymar and others to the Middle east global icons. Really? I mean, I thought it was fascinating, Natalie talking about interviewing him at 14 years old at a point where he'd almost become a star already. I mean, that would just never happen in the Premier League. Premier League clubs in media departments would just not expose players of that age to that kind of coverage and that kind of attention. So he has had it on him, as Natalie said, from a really early Stage and I saw the video last week of the players and the game Natalie was talking about against Bot Fogo, getting, getting photographs with him after the, after full time, other, you know, fellow professionals who wanted to be able to say, look, I share the pitch with Neymar that that's the sort of player that the Saudis want to, to have over there. They're never going to get immediate value for money in a football sense because, you know, the pro league is still a mile off the beaten track of top level football. But broadly you could argue that it's worth it for the publicity because players like Neymar in Saudi Arabia mean that people talk and write about football in Saudi Arabia. It would get zero coverage in Europe if it wasn't for the profile of some of the players who are out there. And I guess to become part of the narrative and to stay part of the narrative, they had to lure some seriously big hitters to the division. They needed Cristiano Ronaldo, they needed Neymar, they needed others like it. It was the only way in which people were going to continue to, to give it any, any kudos if it has any. Indeed. Or to keep their eyes on it. So, yeah, 77 million pound fee, two and a half million pounds a week. He's hardly kicked a ball out there. And if you look at Al Hilal, they didn't really need him in order to be competitive, the reigning champions and the competitive anyway. But in terms of visibility, it's absolutely done the trick because if he'd gone to MLS instead of Saudi after psg, he wouldn't be featured. You know, Saudi football would not be featured on this podcast and we wouldn't be talking about it. It's. It's a weird world, but the world is weird.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

Yeah. Natalie, you spoke about Neymar coming back to Santos to find the love again. Do you think there might be any regrets going to Saudi Arabia? I mean, he's made a lot of money and I heard that obviously Santos can't afford those fees, so he's definitely take a, taken a huge reduction to go to play back in Brazil. But do you think it's a bit too early in his career? Perhaps he just sort of needed that just to sort his head out a little bit. I don't know, I'm just speculating here.

[Nathalie Giedra]

Yeah, ye. No, definitely. And it was such a depressing move, let's be honest. When he moved to Au Hilau, it was just, it was sad, it was grim, it was. He's too young to, to make this move, you know, and as much as his PSG time didn't live up to the expectations and it didn't that he could offer, he could still offer a lot in, in big clubs, especially considering that we know the level he can reach technically, but the physical problems and his, especially his commitment with football, his commitment with, you know, training and staying fit and being involved in the club. We always had this, this notion that PSG was never really a project, that he got 100% on board.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

So you think the love was lost at PSG and then it got worse?

[Nathalie Giedra]

Yes, Yes. I think we, we never saw Barcelona Neymar again in, at psg, he had brilliant moments, but that level that he reached at Barcelona, I don't think we, we really saw it consistently at PSG like we expected. And I know a lot of PSG fans really appreciate Neymar and like him because he, he played amazing football there as well. But of course with psg, you're always linked to the Champions League performances and, and big games and things like that. So in this sense, I think he, he kind of fell out of, of football in, in his final period at psg and then he moved to Saudi and now at Santos and, and because there's, there's so much, so much involves Neymar. You know, he's going to be a father again. So people are saying, no, he's in a different moment of his life. He's gonna be a father again. He's gonna train, he's gonna take this seriously. He's back at Santos, everybody loves him. He's gonna bring back this, this feel good feeling that Santos fans don't have anymore because they were playing second division, to the first division of the National League this year, this season. So it's good for everyone. It's good for Neymar because he will get the love and the time to go back and play football. It's good for Santos fans because they need comfort and it's good for Brazilians in general as well because there's not much of a positive feeling around the Brazilian national team right now. They're not delivering in the same level. And if Neymar is playing football, we know this can change. And Everybody's worried about 2026, so. So if they see Neymar going back to, to. To his level, then it just, it helps. But it is, it is kind of a funny. I'm uncomfortable with, with the trajectory, you know, because me as all Brazilians, we all had expectations for Neymar and we all got frustrated so many times, you.

[Unknown]

Know, I think to look at his body language from what I've seen since he went to Santos, if he, if he went to PSG for the money as much as the project and if he went to SA as much as the project, and I suspect both are true, although only he could say it seems to have reached a time in his life or a point in his career after that where he needs the love a little bit. He needs to feel the love of a club who actually really want him, really rate him and really admire him beyond just what he does on the pitch. He's like you said, he is an icon over there. And I think, I think the time was just right for him to go back to Santos. He needed a bit of that feeling of affection, I think.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

So, Phil, I'm going to play the smallest violence for Neymar right now because back to that point of feeling the love, Phil, I wonder if his career is also overshadowed by the fact that he played around some incredible players. I mean, look at Barcelona, Messi, right? Like, who's going to upstage that guy? And then you go to PSG and you're looking to be the main man. Kylian Mbappe turns up and then Messi also turns up. You're never quite kicking on as the main man who I guess everyone was sort of lifting him to be that guy. I don't know. Like, is that fair to say?

[Unknown]

I think it's a good point. I often wondered, and I still wonder about the strain that was placed on Neymar by having to chase the coattails of Messi and Ronaldo, what that must have kind of been like psychologically, because they are too. They're not just greats of their either. They're all time greats of the game. And there was definitely a period where a lot of people were questioning whether that select group of two might have become three, you know, whether Neymar was going to force his way into it, especially when he was peaking at Barcelona and after PSG paid so much to break the world transfer record and take him from. From Barcelona and it never quite happened. But the thing with Messi and Ronaldo is that they're so much more than just raw talent. Physically. They've been incredibly durable. I mean, Ronaldo especially, he just. Natalie mentioned this earlier. It just never seems to break down ever. And they've also got that so 1% mindset of wanting to win everything and needing to win everything. You know, keep, keep going, keep winning, never, ever drop off. They're in that kind of bracket with Tiger woods and Michael Jordan and Tom Brady. Like, no amount of success is ever enough. And it's like a thirst that you just can't quite quench. And as for late retirement is sort of over their dead bodies, you know, they'll go on for as long as they can. Neymar was exceptional, is exceptional, you know, no question about that. But I'm not sure they have quite made it to the Messi Ronaldo bracket, which isn't really a sort of criticism of him. And he said injuries. Obviously, there seem to have been questions about his commitment from time to time, particularly when he was at PSG. But I guess, don't forget with PSG, they did almost get there in 2020 with the Champions League. They were. They were very close and in the end, it just didn't come together. I think as the Qatari ownership envisaged, it might there. What I find really hard to comprehend about Neymar is his haul of major trophies. I mean, if we take out the French domestic prizes because PSG had a. It's kind of virtually uncontested in France, you're looking at two La Liga titles with Barca, a Champions League and a handful of Copa del Reyes, and it's a lot less than he should have won.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

Do you believe that, Natalie? I mean, for a regular footballer, you take those titles, but for someone who was earmarked as, you know, the likes of Ronaldo or a Messi, you know, do you feel he's fulfilled his potential? But if we compare him to all the other Brazilian greats, you talk about Ronaldinho, you talk about Ronaldo, you talk about Rivaldo, Kaka, I mean, the list goes on. All those players stood out in their own right at their own time and were at the top of their game.

[Nathalie Giedra]

Yes, no, definitely. And it's funny because he always mentions his. His titles as. As an example of how successful his career has been. When people talk about how he didn't achieve expectations, how he didn't reach the levels that everyone expected him. And I think most of the frustration around Neymar, we all. There's no argument about the level of quality of his football. He's a genius with the ball. It's. It's incredible what he can produce. No one, just. No one argues against that. It's. It's just the comparisons with Messi and Ronaldo, I think they. They are tough on him in the sense of they are very committed to football and, and Neymar many times didn't show this same level of Commitment. We saw him many times partying or just, you know, just. Just a lot. A lot of news non football related with. With Neymar.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

Hey, Ronaldinho loved the party too. Come on. We know that.

[Nathalie Giedra]

Yes, but. Yes, no, definitely. And it's a good example IO, because Ronaldinho, this comparison exists, but people say, yeah, Ronaldinho loves a party. And, and the end of his career was kind of depressing because he was just partying and he didn't care, but he won the Ballon d'or first. So what people usually say is, yes, Neymar, he's doing all that, but without the Ballon d'or without reaching the expectation. And I'm just saying. I'm just mentioning an individual prize. But, but, you know, in terms of. Of. Of other. Other titles he could win, I think if he wins the World cup with Brazil, a lot will change in. In. In the perception of people about Neymar. There's a lot in stake with that. And he always made it very clear that he loves playing for the national team. All managers who work, they don't feel like he's a handful. He is a lovely guy. He's really nice to people, he's kind to everyone. But, you know, there's like, everyone around him is not really well seen. His dad and his friends and everyone who's just taking him to parties. So a lot of the frustration around Neymar is related to that and to those comparisons with Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

Phil, this is the one, really, and I guess it often will divide opinion in football is that, yes, they are the messes of this world and Ronaldo's of this world. But surely for us as fans of the game, someone like Neymar just represents a great footballer.

[Unknown]

Right?

[Ayo Akimwalere]

Like the scripts, doesn't have to be. You look after your body and you end up, you know, having the best ever career. Playing the game at the highest level for all of us is a dream. And he did that, and he was flashy with it and he was entertaining to watch.

[Unknown]

Yeah, he did. And there's no reason why he has to be exactly what we wanted him to be or what we think he should have been. Football doesn't tend to work in or run in straight lines. And I think there is a slight risk from time to time that your enjoyment of players or your perception of players is skewed a little bit by how they compare to players like Messi and Ronaldo. Although the fact that those two are kind of moving on now and not far away from the end of their careers may, as an example, help somebody like Lamina, who looks like he's got the potential to be at that sort of level. I might benefit from the fact that he can evolve at a time when the shadows aren't hanging over the European game, but I think at the same time, footballers do like to be spoken about as being close to or in the same company as a Messi or a Ronaldo. Like, those sort of comparisons are what the best of the best really want. They're just very, very hard to live up to.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

Yeah, right, let's move on because coming next, we talk expectations of wonderkids who cost big money, starting with Usman Dembe. You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akinwaleere.

[Phil Hay]

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[Ayo Akimwalere]

Across his career, clubs racked up 330 million pounds in transfer fees for Neymar. It got me thinking, though, about other players who have had exorbitant amounts spent on them and how difficult it is to manage expectations. Barcelona used the Neymar money to spend £135.5 million on Ousmane Dembele from Dortmund in 2017. He struggled to live up to the billing at the Nou camp, but according to Julian Llorens on the Totally Football show European Edition, he has turned over a new leaf at PSG for Tina Dembele with a flick. Hakimi had continued his run and Dembele.

[Unknown]

Does it again It's a brilliant hat.

Trick from Ousmane Dembele to put Paris out of sight.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

Surely.

[Unknown]

The last time he scored a hat trick was 2016 with Rennes. So the guy waited almost nine years for hat trick and two games in four days.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

So he was at rent him.

[Nathalie Giedra]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Borussia Dortmund bought him and he did well there.

Yeah. That one season, fantastic.

And then he moves. When Neymar moved to Paris Saint Germaine, Barcelona, go.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

Okay, fine.

[Unknown]

We'll bring in Dembele because he's that good.

Yeah.

And he became the second most expensive footballer in history.

Yeah.

And then that's where the good stuff stopped, really.

Yeah, it was tough for him.

Injuries, a lot of inconsistencies, issues off the field.

[Nathalie Giedra]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Being very young, I think, and a bit immature, I think. And Usman would say himself not really ready for the demands of a top club like Barcelona in terms of simple things like being on time for training.

So what's been the difference this season?

It's a good question because he started well in terms of. His performances were not bad, but he kept missing a lot of chances. Last season was a good season for him overall at psg. He obviously came because Kylian was there and their best friends, all of that, but we never really thought he could be the one stepping up to almost replace what Kylian or filling the hole that Kylian left. To be fair, Luis Enrique has been a very good influence on him in terms of working in front of goal, in his. Finishing to be in front of goal and what to do. Because sometimes it was not so much the fact that he was not efficient, it's that he would. He would do the wrong thing in front of goal. And it's great to see. And he made a bet with his mates that if he reaches a certain amount of goals in the season, they will buy him a Patek Philippe watch and a Rolex watch.

Yeah.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

No better incentive than a nice glittery luxury watch.

[Unknown]

Basically the same as the bonuses we get here. Yeah, exactly.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

One of yours, definitely.

[Nathalie Giedra]

I was going to say, whoever was involved in a bet like this, I think.

[Unknown]

Did they say a boat there? I. I live in landlocked York. So much used to me, I'd have to sell it. Yeah.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

Well, Phil, let's talk about Usman Dembele. One of my favorite players of all time. I mean, the guy is so good, he never quite knows what foot he's shooting off or passing off. He's just so in the game. But yet Julian mentions it. He's had inconsistencies and now this season, 16 goals in, in 19 league earned games for Dembele. How impressive, how impressed I should say, have you been with his performance this season. And let's not forget Luis Enrique has to be credited for this because for me he just comes across as this sort of no nonsense coach. If you don't want to play my way, mate, there's the high road.

[Unknown]

I like Luis Enrique a lot. I think he's a good coach. The documentary that was done on him recently is fascinating if anybody hasn't watched it. Proper insight into a guy who's very different and has a lot of kind of unique thoughts. This is quite funny though, because you remember the last round of Champions League League stage matches when they were 18 on the one night for the newsletter we were trying to work out how to, to cover the whole road ration and we, we reckoned that the best way was to do a match report of five words for all 18 of the games. So we did PSG and Stuttgart in which obviously Dembele scored a hat trick. My report was if Dembele did this consistently because Barcelona was a kind of washout for him. And he has been very much under the radar, which I get at PSG because there have been other players there, other faces and profiles that do just crowd you out. But perhaps it's helping him in Paris and in France that PSG seem to have moved on from the, the Galactico mission that they were on when they had Mbappe and they were recruiting Neymar and, and Messi as well. They've, they seem to have a bit more of a plan as opposed to just throwing money at everything. And I guess in those circumstances there's more likely to be a kind of concerted focus on Dembele and what he can do and what his role should be and how he can be pivotal as opposed to him being just a bit of the cast around about the bigger players. It does feel like he's coming into his own and at 27 he really should be hitting his prime. And I think it was, it was probably quite telling what we heard there about maturity or immaturity, the need to perhaps grow up slightly. I wonder if that's happened and if the circumstances now are just better for him to thrive.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

Yeah, good shout, Phil. And Nazi mentality is interesting because I guess the familiar theme with a lot of these players we're talking about is they're naturally gifted, extremely talented, but maybe don't quite have that mentality to drive them to the next level. I mean, Dembele's still got time and we're sort of seeing the signs of a player that's moving forward. But that is so key, isn't it? Do you want to be disciplined enough to get to the next level? Because there are a lot of footballers out there, but not very, not all of them make it to the very top and are winning that Ballon d'or.

[Nathalie Giedra]

And do they have to want it as badly as the others do? You know, because, because this is our expectations, what we, what we want from, from these players. And, and, but it's, it's. In the end of the, of the day is our problem to deal with our expectations. But, but at the same time, it is. And the fees, I think the fees are, Are an interesting aspect because it's only going to get worse. The. The market is dictating exorbitant fees window after window, so we will have more young players having to deal with heavy fees and the expectations these fees generate around. Around big talents, you know, so the mentality, I think it is something that you can, you can have ever since you were a kid. It can be innate in, in a way, but it can also be something if you're around the right people. Like Neymar was in Barcelona with Messi and Luis Suarez and Lizin Hickey, as a coincidence, he was the manager, he was the coach of the trio, the msn. So you can create this mentality, but in the end, it's a matter of they need to make the final call. They are the ones doing all the sacrifices to get to that level. Do they have to? I don't know. But we. We expect them to, especially when we see raw talents like Neymar and Dembele and so many young players who had. Who have to live with this curse that is their incredible talent.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

You know what, Natalie? I think a lot of that's probably because many of us wish we could be enjoying that ourselves. All of us have maybe played at some point in our life and it's just a dream to play at the highest level, you know. Oh, could you imagine giving me some of that money? Thank you. Or that Patek Philippe watch. In that case, Phil Nata makes a good point. The money is interesting, isn't it? The transfer fee is really interesting because that can skew that level of expectation, can't it?

[Unknown]

It certainly can. Dembele is probably a good example of that. I know we're going to come on to speak about him in more depth, but I think there's nobody better at the moment than Joao Felix. He was £130 million or thereabouts when he went to Atletico Madrid and that was one of the highest fees of all time at that stage. Massive amount of cash. He's 25 now and he's a bit, bit nomadic. He's. He's at Milan having hardly made a splash at Chelsea and not done anything long lasting there, barely there before. He's moved on again and he's not sticking. So I think it's natural with somebody so talented that there comes a point where people ask, you know, what, what's happened? You know, why didn't he follow the expected trajectory? It merits some exploration and some debate, but Natalie's absolutely right. You know, it's for them to decide how hard they push themselves. And I think it's also dangerous to suggest that ultra competitiveness to the nth degree is an absolute virtue. It's a virtue in being successful at what you do. But whether it makes you happy and whether it works for your private life as well is probably another matter. Football as a human, none of this is painting by numbers, but the problem is, and I mentioned this previously, the world class benchmark is very, very high and in a lot of cases almost unattainable. And if you do show potential, that kind of pertains to. That you're going to be held to. And professional sport is really ruthless.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

Yeah. Well, let's see if we can answer some of those questions around Joao Felix feel for you, because coming up next, we turn our attention to that exact player. This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Accumularo. Yeah, let us talk about Joao Felix, who joined Milan on loan from Chelsea on deadline day, his fourth club in the last three seasons. 1 48.2 million pounds spent on transfer fees for the Portuguese player in total. Well, let's hear from the Athletics. Jack Lang, who is a massive fan of Felix. Here is Joao Fenix well found by.

[Unknown]

Jimenez and that's a fabulous finish for the debutanton. Hi, this is Jack Lang checking in from the front line of the culture war that has erupted in the comments section of my piece about Joan Felix over the weekend. If you haven't read it, you should, but I will also summarize it for you because I'm nice. I just argued that Joan Felix is a Rorschach test footballer. People look at him and see wildly different things. There are people who see a fraud. That's the word that gets thrown around because he has not consistently done it at the highest level, despite obviously being the Fourth most expensive player of all time. And there are other people, people with common sense, good vision and taste like me, who see him as a genius who has been a bit underappreciated so far. You know, he's just, he's just joyous to watch you see him and he's all of your 90s playmaker, dream dreams rolled into one. Always doing fun stuff through balls, nutmegs. Really exciting player. Does everything with such style. Does that make him a complete player? No, clearly not. But I think that modern football, as mechanical and as automated as it is, should still have space for these guys who can sprinkle a little bit of stardust on whatever they do. I think giraffe Alex is capable of that. I think he's capable of things that not many other players are in the world. And I'm just really hoping that he gets a club where he gets the love and I suppose, indulgence in a way that his talent deserves. Of course. Check back in with me in six months time when he's playing in Saudi Arabia. Cheers.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

Thanks for that, Jack.

[Nathalie Giedra]

I like, I like how, how impartial Jack is.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

You think he likes it?

[Unknown]

Hasn't picked his side of the fence, has he?

[Ayo Akimwalere]

Well, this is the thing, Natalie. I'm listening to that and I'm thinking there are some parallels of Neymar really finding the love at a club that, you know, gives you that boost to be yourself. But I still think about Jaan Felix and I think he's such a luxury player. He reminds me of a cacao, reminds me of some of the Italian greats, like, you know, Totti or, you know, Maldini, or maybe even Perla in the middle. He really is a special player, but still hasn't quite hit those heights. Do you think he's found a home in Milan?

[Nathalie Giedra]

I hope so, because I feel for him, I really do. And he's clearly a talented player. But I think with Jean Felix there is also the, the point of like the choices he made. Maybe strategically he didn't make the best choices throughout his career. Thinking about his playing style, I mean, of course Atletico Madrid paid a fortune for him, but is he a Simeone player? I don't see him like that. And then he comes to Chelsea and there are a million players wanting to play and, and he's playing the same position as Cole Palmer, you know, so, so maybe he can have a breakthrough in, in a different club with a different, with a more suiting playing style. When we talk about play, when we talk to players who went on Loans in, in to different clubs and especially early in. In their careers. They always say that. I was talking to Liam De Lap the other day and he was telling me this. One thing that I learned with my loans is to. To choose the places that I go to if, If. If my. My football is going to be able to develop there in the, in that environment, in that playing style, if I can fit in there. So maybe it isn't, is it? It was an issue and it. It maybe is an issue for. For Jean Felix.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

Yeah. I think that the Lap one's interesting because I think Jean Felix, the money was so exorbitant, like it was insane. Right. So Phil, Benfica couldn't say no to such a fee, and in many respects, perhaps the hand was forced. Maybe he could have stayed at Benfica for another season, maybe before he moved. But if Atletico Madrid are kind of money, sometimes you just got to go.

[Unknown]

It's a really good move. I mean, top move. But I think Natalie's correct, You know, stylistically, there are a lot of clubs or a lot of clubs where Xiao Felix isn't going to fit, and a fair number of coaches who isn't going to fit particularly well under either. And Athletico, on reflection, you would think are probably one of those because of Simeone's tactics and his outlook, which, by the way, I'm a really big fan of. But I don't think it's something that particularly works perfectly for something like Xiao Felix in saying that he does have a La Liga title with Athletico, and they've only got two in the last 30 years, so that's really not to. To be sniffed at. But his, you know, versus his talent, his middle cabinet looks a little bare too, it has to be said.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

Yeah. Let's go back to the transfer fees, Natalie, because let's look at these players as humans, really. You know, you're very young. Someone pays over £100 million euros for you, money you've never even considered, would it be a turn to unm? No, the player doesn't put the value on themselves. How much pressure from the work that you've done and players that you've spoken to, do you think they feel of going to these teams for such big money?

[Nathalie Giedra]

It's just that there are players who can completely brush that aside. I remember when Alison first moved to Liverpool, he was the most expensive goalkeeper in the world, and that fee actually got beaten, like in a couple of days with Kippa, but it was just a matter of a million either way, you know, and, and I remember talking to him about it. And he, he's very calm and quiet in life, Alison. So for him it's very easy not to think about it. He just doesn't think about it. He. He doesn't let it affect him. But people are different, you know, and, and I understand there are, there are players who, who can struggle with that. Another example, Virgil van Dijk. Virgil van Dijk was the most expensive defender when, when he moved to, to Liverpool, he dealt with it really well. So we do have examples. But it's. In the end, it comes to, to the mentality and, and maybe the people around you and the environment you, you lived in and there's just so much involving a football player. Maybe he's surrounded by, by people who really need their. This money, you know, like who, who pressure him over it. Or maybe he's forced to think about it or maybe he puts his. This pressure on himself. It's just a matter of mentality and deal with that the same way because it's, it's not easy if it's a talking point, you know, and then people are asking you about it all the time. It's. It's not, it's definitely not really straightforward to deal with.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

Yeah, I guess. But for every player that doesn't do that well under big transfer fees, there are the likes of the Jude Bellinghams of this word, Phil, who relish those opportunities. You know, they, they're almost built for it. Probably seen that path for themselves since he was at Birmingham City and then moved forward.

[Unknown]

Bellingham has the advantage, and I'm not saying other players don't have this, but he has the advantage of total inner confidence. It doesn't seem to suffer from imposter syndrome at all. And didn't go into Real Madrid. Doesn't ever seem to doubt that he's good enough for whatever level it is that he happens to be playing at. I think you're right about him seeing the path. I suspect that deep down Billingham probably thinks he's got a ballon d'or in him at some stage. Plus, on top of that, he's got exceptional ability. And you marry the two together and it's a pretty, pretty potent mix. Bellingham is going to be a star of this generation of football. Not necessarily the star, you know, the out and out star, but he's going to be a major name in what goes on over the next decade.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

Yeah. Natalie, can I just circle back to Neymar very quickly? Do you think Neymar, regardless of everything everyone was saying about him truly believed that he could be the greatest player in the world because he's. I know people that know him, they say he's a really lovely man, like, really nice guy. Sometimes a little bit shy, actually. Do you think in his heart of hearts, this is a player that said, you know what? I'm gonna leave Santos and one day I'm gonna win the Ballon d'orle?

[Nathalie Giedra]

I think he does. I don't see him as the. The imposter syndrome guy. You know, I feel like he's. He's a very confident guy. He's just not committed to the extent of. He doesn't do enough to reach his potential because his potential is so high. So he needs to do a lot not to reach that very high potential. But I do believe that he trusts him, he backs himself up and. Okay, I can't. I can't play in a high level again. I'm. I'm going back to Santos because I want to. To go back there and I can be important for Brazil in the next World Cup. This is a huge motivation for him. So, yeah, I do think that he. Not only he believes that. I think a lot of people believe that because people are. People keep expecting things from him. It doesn't matter that he moves to Saudi Arabia. If he's back, people are always going to expect something from him. Until the, the day he retires, people will expect something from Neymar because they know the levels he can reach. So not only Neymar, but a whole country really believes that he can. He can play, he can. He. He only needs to do this for seven matches in a World Cup. You know, this is what. What Brazilians are thinking, just if it could stay fit. Seven matches. That's all, you know, but of course, I'm joking. It's just. It's a journey to get there. But I do think confidence is not a problem for him.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

All right, and. And who should we be looking out for then in the Premier League as we move forward in terms of Brazilian stars, at least?

[Nathalie Giedra]

Okay, he's not here yet, but he will arrive at Chelsea. Steven. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No know, keep an eye on this kid because I've spoken to, to a lot of Brazilian players who have trained with him in the national team, and they were very quick in. Oh, who's there is a very new generation of. Of really talented players with Endrick at Real Madrid and, and Estevan, and they, they are blown away by him on, on training and, and his attitude. And he. Apparently he's a nice kid. He's very focused. So everyone's really impressed with Esteban. So, yeah, we're talking about expectations. We're a country who we're always producing. We're renewing our expectations. You know, it's, it's, it's tough. It's not, it's not easy.

[Ayo Akimwalere]

Honestly. Guys, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a really highly entertaining podcast talking about what I love. I love attacking players anyway. I just love it. So, yeah, we're talking about some absolute stars. Natalie, Mutua Brigado and Phil as well. Thank you so much. And before I go, actually, I want to tell you guys about our connection Sports edition, a new game for sports F from the Athletic. It's basically a daily dose of trivia. It's so satisfying to solve and let me tell you, it's a little addictive as well. Play [e-mail] forward/connections. We'll be back tomorrow.

[Unknown]

The Athletic FC Podcast Network.