Has Neymar delivered on the hype?

Summary

Summary of "Has Neymar Delivered on the Hype?"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Athletic FC Podcast
• Host: IO Akamolera
• Guests: Phil Hay (Lead Writer, The Athletic FC Newsletter), Nathalie Giedra (Sky Sports Reporter and Brazilian Football Expert)
• Release Date: February 11, 2025

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1. Introduction

The episode titled "Has Neymar Delivered on the Hype?" delves into the recent return of Brazilian football star Neymar to his boyhood club, Santos, after a tumultuous stint in Saudi Arabia. Hosted by IO Akamolera, the discussion features insights from Phil Hay and Nathalie Giedra, exploring Neymar's career trajectory, the immense transfer fees associated with him, and the broader implications for high-priced football talents.

2. Neymar's Return to Santos

[02:16] IO Akamolera opens the discussion by highlighting the emotional return of Neymar to Santos after a 12-year hiatus. This move has stirred mixed feelings among fans and experts alike.

[03:03] Nathalie Giedra describes Neymar's return as "bittersweet," emphasizing the rarity of Brazilian idols returning to their roots. She mentions the fairy-tale aspect of Neymar's homecoming, especially with the upcoming World Cup in mind. "It's sweeter than bitter," she concludes, underscoring the positive sentiment despite the challenges.

3. Neymar's Early Days and Rise to Stardom

Drawing from personal experiences, [04:59] Nathalie Giedra recalls interviewing Neymar at the age of 14. She discusses his early promise, the immense expectations placed upon him, and his explosive performance at Santos before moving to Barcelona. Neymar's comparison to Brazilian legend Ronaldinho is highlighted, particularly during the memorable match against Flamengo where Neymar faced Ronaldinho, attracting significant attention and boosting his legend.

4. Physical Condition and Motivation for Returning

[07:21] The conversation shifts to Neymar's physical state and the strategic reasons behind his return to Santos. Nathalie Giedra reveals that Neymar is "not physically well," having recently recovered from an ACL injury. She explains that his limited appearances in Saudi Arabia were due to both team dynamics and his own physical struggles.

Despite these setbacks, Neymar's six-month contract with Santos aims to rejuvenate his career with aspirations of returning to European football and competing in the 2026 World Cup. Giedra emphasizes the emotional and motivational aspects of his return, stating, "He's back at Santos, and everybody's so excited to see Neymar."

5. The Financial Implications of Neymar's Transfers

[09:28] IO Akamolera brings attention to the astronomical transfer fees associated with Neymar, particularly his move to Saudi Arabia, which cost Al Hilal £322 million. Phil Hay contextualizes this expenditure by explaining the Saudi Pro League's strategy to elevate its global profile through high-profile signings. "It's worth it for the publicity," Hay asserts, noting that despite the lack of immediate footballing returns, the visibility achieved justifies the financial outlay.

6. Neymar vs. Other High-Value Players

The discussion broadens to compare Neymar's journey with other high-priced talents like Ousmane Dembélé and João Félix.

[25:19] Akamolera mentions Ousmane Dembélé's transfer saga, highlighting his struggles to meet expectations despite hefty fees. Phil Hay elaborates on Dembélé’s challenges, citing injuries and inconsistencies as major hindrances to his success at PSG.

[35:34] The conversation shifts to João Félix, portrayed by guest Jack Lang, who sees Félix as a "Rorschach test footballer." Félix's fluctuating performances and high transfer fees echo Neymar’s own career challenges. Phil Hay underscores the complexities of Félix’s situation, emphasizing the mismatch between his playing style and the tactical demands of his clubs.

7. Mentality and Expectations of High-Fee Players

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the psychological pressures faced by footballers burdened with massive transfer fees.

[40:35] Nathalie Giedra highlights the varied responses among players to these pressures, citing Alisson and Virgil van Dijk as examples of those who handled their hefty fees with grace. She emphasizes that "mentalité" plays a crucial role in how players cope with expectations.

[30:50] Giedra further discusses the impact of exorbitant fees on young talents, suggesting that the mounting financial pressures can exacerbate the already high expectations placed upon them. "It's a lot of money, window after window," she notes, pointing out that the football market is increasingly dictating transfer fees, thereby intensifying expectations.

8. Comparisons to Football Legends

The podcast explores how comparisons to legends like Messi and Ronaldo can overshadow a player's individual achievements.

[16:53] Phil Hay reflects on Neymar's career under the shadow of Messi and Ronaldo, pondering the psychological strain of chasing their legacy. He acknowledges Neymar's exceptional talent but notes that "his medal cabinet looks a little bare too," implying that despite his skill, Neymar hasn't amassed as many trophies as his predecessors.

[19:23] Nathalie Giedra elaborates on the public and media's relentless comparisons, which often overshadow Neymar's genuine contributions and achievements. She contends that if Neymar wins the World Cup, perceptions of his career might shift significantly.

9. Future Prospects and Potential Fulfillment

Looking ahead, the guests discuss Neymar's potential to fulfill his early promise and the factors that could influence his legacy.

[43:22] Nathalie Giedra expresses confidence in Neymar's self-belief and his dedication to resurrecting his career at Santos. She posits that winning the World Cup could be pivotal in redefining Neymar's legacy, stating, "But I do think that he trusts himself and... People will expect something from Neymar because they know the levels he can reach."

[42:15] Phil Hay contrasts Neymar with emerging talents like Jude Bellingham, who thrives under pressure and exhibits unwavering confidence. He suggests that while players like Bellingham may capitalize on their potential, Neymar's legacy will heavily depend on his ability to navigate and capitalize on the expectations placed upon him.

10. Conclusion

The episode concludes by reflecting on the intricate web of talent, expectations, financial pressures, and personal motivations that define Neymar's career. The guests acknowledge the complexity of measuring success solely based on trophies and transfer fees, advocating for a more nuanced appreciation of a player's individual brilliance and personal journey.

Notable Quotes:

• Nathalie Giedra [03:03]: "It's sweeter than bitter."
• Phil Hay [10:12]: "It's a weird world, but the world is weird."
• Phil Hay [16:53]: "I think it's a good point... Neymar was exceptional."
• Nathalie Giedra [25:55]: "It's a bit of a depression move... He could still offer a lot."
• Phil Hay [22:00]: "Football doesn't tend to work or run in straight lines."
• Nathalie Giedra [44:34]: "He needed ... to go back and play football."

This comprehensive discussion provides listeners with a multifaceted understanding of Neymar's career choices, the immense pressures of high-value transfers, and the broader implications for football's evolving landscape.

Transcript

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[IO Akamolera]

Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, IO Akimwalere. That's the sound of Santa CIS fans welcoming back club legend Neymar after 12 years away. So why is he back in Brazil? And why did it go so wrong in Saudi Arabia? And how hard is it for players to live up to exorbitant price tags? Right with us today we have lead writer for the Athletic FC newsletter, Phil Hay, plus Sky Sports reporter and Brazilian football expert Nathalie Giedra. Natalie, let's get into this. As you're the Brazilian on the panel, we have to Talk. Neyrima, what is it like seeing them or back. Back in Santos? Bittersweet to see him coming home a bit earlier than anticipated.

[Nathalie Giedra]

Maybe bittersweet is, is a good definition. Bonjour. Hola. Yes, it is. It is weird because no one, no one really thought that he would go back so early, but at the same time, there's a big commotion around him being back in Brazil because, well, mostly Brazilians, we lose our idols very, very early. They leave really early to, to go to Europe to play league, so, so we miss seeing those players so close. And, and to be fair, Neymar, he. He exploded and he, he stayed a bit in, in Santos before he moved to Barcelona, but there is this commotion around him being back, and it's kind of a fairy tale story, so that kind of moves people as well. This is the sweet part of, of having Neymar back because if it was any other team, if it was Palmeiras or Flamengo, because they speculated a lot around Neymar being a Palmeiras fan when he was a, when he was a kid. And Flamingo always bringing the stars back. If it was that, I don't think. I think a lot of people would be annoyed. But with Neymar back, and this is very important, a year and a half to the next World cup and this is key. So, so there is, There is there. It's a bittersweet feeling, but it's. It's sweeter than bitter.

[IO Akamolera]

Okay, I like that. Look, there will be a lot of people that probably don't remember Neymar at Santos. I'm thinking much younger listeners here, but just take us back to Neymar's early days in Santos. His numbers were amazing. I mean, so many videos of him doing amazing things, but also an absolute joy to watch. Everyone remembers that famous goal against Flamengo, which won the Poscas award.

[Nathalie Giedra]

Well, I'm gonna give away my age here because the first time I, I interviewed neymar, he was 14 and, and I was an intern. I was 20. And he was already a big thing. He already visited Real Madrid. We'd had pictures of him with the Galacticos. We, we heard stories about big European clubs trying to already sign him in the future and trying to, you know, convince him that he would have to play at Madrid or Barcelona or whatever. He was a huge deal. I remember his first game as a professional, and when he entered the pitch, everybody was already expecting. We've been hearing about him for so long, so he has been dealing with expectations ever since. He was literally A kid ever since he came through Santos Academy and then he played brilliantly at Santos and he, he played with. With a lot of joy always. And that drew comparisons with Ronaldinho. There were a lot of comparisons and references involving Neymar, but the Ronaldinho one is big because it wasn't so long ago that we saw Ronaldinho at his peak. And you mentioned the Flamingo match. I was reporting on that match and I had the privilege to see the Pushkas. Yes. At Villa Biomilo and that match attracted a lot of attention because it was Neymar against Ronaldinho for the first time. Ronaldinho was playing for Flamengo, so, so it was kind of a video game match in this sense, you know, because you saw those individual moments happening all the time and it was so entertaining and so many goals and, and we wanted to see those, those two. Neymar wasn't a legend, but he was becoming one. And Ronaldinho was already Ronaldinho of course. So. So yeah, ever since he breakthrough in Brazil there was always a lot involving Neymar and expectations. He had to. To live with that. His.

[IO Akamolera]

Well, let's briefly talk about why he's come back to his boyhood club, Santos. He's 33, not long ago recovered from an ACL and I'm hoping at the time of recording he's not injured again because you never know with Neymar, Natalie. But you know, is he physically well, do you think maybe that a league that's probably not as demanding potentially is probably worth coming back home a bit early for?

[Nathalie Giedra]

Okay. He's not physically well and he's the first one to say it. He has, he's got no rhythm right now. He played a few minutes against very weak teams. He played a few minutes against Botafogo who plays the fourth division of, of the National League. And then he played against nobody's on chino. I think 81 minutes and it was both draws. Santos doesn't have a good team. He's playing state championship. He's not playing the National League. The National League hasn't started. Brazilian calendar is a mess. So he's playing state Championship is weaker teams. He's going to play Corinthians soon. So this is going to be a bigger test for him. But it's not expected for him to, to. To deliver physically so quickly. But there is a master plan here and ideally he doesn't talk openly about it because he has a six month contract with Santos. So in theory he's staying at Santos until the. The. Until June and then ideally he will play well in this months and he will sign a contract with an European club. That's the idea. That's the plan. So he can play one year in Europe in high level and get to 2026 playing in a very high level. Because maybe it's not his last World cup at the age of 34, 35. There is a possibility, of course, especially with his injury history, but maybe it's the last World cup that he will play in a very high level. He's not Cristiano Ronaldo, you know, in terms of taking care of his body and never getting injured. And he. He's had this. This ph. So. So that's the plan. This is why he's. He's back to Santos. He could play at the mls, he could play somewhere else. But at Santos, he. It's his home. He feels comfortable, he feels loved. He fell out of football massively. And now that he's back and he's loved and everybody's so excited to see Neymar, there's this huge hope that him going back to Santos can link up to Brazil winning the World cup in 2026. That is a stretch, but that is how people see it.

[IO Akamolera]

Okay. You're keeping the dream alive for all those Brazilian fans. Natalie. Right, Phil. This is a player that's been injured a lot, but also a player that's made a hell of a lot of money. Let's just rack up some of the numbers from his recent stint in Saudi Arabia, which, by the way, saw him make just seven appearances, mostly due to his ACL injury. So at Al Hilal, they paid 77 million to sign him for PSG on a Sally of around 2.5 million a week. So he will be paid 85% of that for the remainder of this season. Meaning, Phil, that he has cost the club £322 million. I mean, for a player that's not played much football, that's. That's a hell of a lot of money.

[Phil Hay]

Easy money for Neymar and easy money for psg. And I don't think there'll be too much sympathy for. For Al Hilal given the amount of money that seems to be available. This is the risk that the people driving the Saudi pro league are willing to take up. Or perhaps it'd be fairer to say this is the trade off that they're willing to make the paying vast sums and in some cases well above true market value or European market value to entice players like Neymar and others to the Middle east global icons. Really, I mean, I thought it was fascinating, Natalie talking about interviewing him at 14 years old at a point where he'd almost become a star already. I mean, that would just never happen in the Premier League. Premier League clubs in media departments would just not expose players of that age to, to that kind of coverage and that kind of attention. So he has had it on him, as Natalie said, from, from a really early stage. And I saw the video last week of the players in the game Natalie was talking about against Botfogo, getting, getting photographs with him after the, after full time, other, you know, fellow professionals who wanted to be able to say, look, I share the pitch with Neymar, that that's the sort of player that the Saudis want to have over there. They're never going to get immediate value for money in a football sense because, you know, the pro league is still a mile off the beaten track of top level football. But broadly, you could argue that it's worth it for the publicity because players like Neymar in Saudi Arabia mean that people talk and write about football in Saudi Arabia. It would get zero coverage in Europe if it wasn't for the profile of some of the players who are out there. And I guess to become part of the narrative and to stay part of the narrative, they had to lure some seriously big hitters to the division. They needed Cristiano Ronaldo, they needed Neymar, they needed others like it. It was the only way in which people were going to continue to, to give it any, any kudos if, if it has any. Indeed. Or to keep the, their eyes on it. So, yeah, 77 million pound fee, two and a half million pounds a week. He's hardly kicked a ball out there. And if you look at Al Hilal, they didn't really need him in order to be competitive, the reigning champions and the competitive anyway. But in terms of visibility, it's absolutely done the trick because if he'd gone to MLS instead of Saudi after psg, he wouldn't be featured. You know, Saudi football would not be featured on this podcast and we wouldn't be talking about it. It's a weird world, but the world is weird.

[IO Akamolera]

Yeah. Natalie, you spoke about Neymar coming back to Santos to find the love again. Do you think there might be any regrets going to Saudi Arabia? I mean, he's made a lot of money and I heard that obviously Santos can't afford those fees, so he's definitely taken a huge reduction to go to play back in Brazil. But do you think it's a bit Too early in his career, perhaps he just sort of needed that just to sort his head out a little bit. I don't know. I'm just speculating here.

[Nathalie Giedra]

Yeah, ye. No, definitely. And it was such a depressing move, let's be honest. When he moved to a Lao, it was just. It was sad, it was grim. It was. He's too young to. To make this move, you know, and as much as his PSG time didn't live up to the expectations and it didn't. That he could offer. He could still offer a lot in, in big clubs, especially considering that we know the level he can reach technically. But the physical problems and especially his commitment with football, his commitment with, you know, training and staying fit and being involved in the club. We always had this. This notion that PSG was never really a project, that he got 100% on board.

[IO Akamolera]

So you think the love was lost at psg and then it got worse at what you're saying.

[Nathalie Giedra]

So. Yes, yes, I think we never saw Barcelona Neymar again in at psg. He had brilliant moments, but that level that he reached at Barcelona, I don't think we. We really saw it consistently at PSG like we expected. And I know a lot of PSG fans really appreciate Neymar and like him because he. He played amazing football there as well. But of course, with psg, you're always linked to the Champions League performances and, and big games and, and things like that. So in this sense, I think he. He kind of fell out of. Of football in, in his final period at psg and then he moved to Saudi and now at Santos and, And because there's. There's so much. So much involves Neymar. You know, he's going to be a father again. So people are saying, no, he's in a different moment of his life. He's gonna be a father again. He's gonna train, he's gonna take this seriously. He's back at Santos. Everybody loves him. He's gonna bring back this. This feel good feeling that Santos fans don't have anymore because they were playing second division last season. They just came back to the first division of the National League this year, this season. So it's. It's good for everyone. It's good for. For Neymar because he will get the. The love and the time to. To go back and play football. It's good for Santos fans because they need comfort and it's good for Brazilians in general as well, because there's not much of a positive feeling around the Brazilian national team right now, they're not delivering in the same level. And if Neymar's playing football, we know this can change. And Everybody's worried about 2026, so, so if they see Neymar going back to, to, to his level, then it just, it helps. But it is, it is kind of a funny. I'm uncomfortable with, with the trajectory, you know, because me as all Brazilians, we all had expectations for Neymar and we all got frustrated so many times.

[Phil Hay]

You know, I think to look at his body language from what I've seen since he went to Santos, if he, if he went to PSG for the money as much as the project, and if he went to Saudi for the money as much as the project, and I suspect both are true, although only he could say it seems to have reached a time in his life or a point in his career after that where he needs the love a little bit. He needs to feel the love of a club who actually really want him, really rate him and really admire him beyond just what he does on the pitch. He's like you said, he is an icon over there. And I think, I think the time was just right for him to go back to Santos. He needed a bit of that feeling of affection, I think.

[IO Akamolera]

So, Phil, I'm gonna play the smallest violence for Neymar right now because back to that point of feeling the love, Phil, I wonder if his career is also overshadowed by the fact that he played around some incredible players. I mean, you look at Barcelona, Messi, right? Like, who's got to upstage that guy? And then you go to PSG and you're looking to be the main man. Kylian Mbappe turns up and then Messi also turns up. You're never quite kicking on as the main man who I guess everyone was sort of lifting him to be that guy. I don't know. Like, is that fair to say?

[Phil Hay]

I think it's a good point. I, I've, I often wondered, and I still wonder about the strain that was placed on Neymar by having to chase the coattails of Messi and Ronaldo, what that must have kind of been like psychologically, because they are too. They're not just greats of their either, the all time greats of the game. And there was definitely a period where a lot of people were questioning whether that select group of two might have become three, you know, whether Neymar was going to force his way into it, especially when he was peaking at Barcelona and after PSG paid so much to break the world transfer record and take him from. From Barcelona, and it never quite happened. But the thing with Messi and Ronaldo is that they're so much more than just raw talent. Physically, they've been incredibly durable. I mean, Ronaldo especially, he just. Natalie mentioned this earlier, he just never seems to break down, ever. And. And they've also got that sort of 1% mindset of wanting to win everything and needing to win everything. You know, keep. Keep going, keep winning, never, ever drop off. They're in that kind of bracket with Tiger woods and Michael Jordan and Tom Brady. Like, no amount of success is ever enough. And it's like a thirst that. That you just can't quite quench. And as for late retirement is sort dead bodies, you know, they'll go on for as. As long as they can. Neymar was exceptional, is exceptional, you know, no question about that. But I'm not sure they've quite made it to the Messi Ronaldo bracket, which isn't really a sort of criticism of him. He's had injuries, obviously. There seem to have been questions about his commitment from time to time, particularly when he was at PSG. But I guess, don't forget with PSG, they did almost get there in 2020 with the Champions League. They were. They were very close and in the end, it just didn't come together. I think as the Qatari ownership envisaged, it might there. What I find really hard to comprehend about Neymar is his haul of major trophies. I mean, if we take out the French domestic prizes, because PSG are kind of virtually uncontested in France, you're looking at two La Liga titles with Barca, a Champions League and a handful of Copa del Reyes, and it's a lot less than he should have won.

[IO Akamolera]

Do you believe that, Natalie? I mean, for a regular footballer, you'd take those titles, but for someone who was earmarked as, you know, the likes of Ronaldo or a Messi, you know, do you feel he's fulfilled his potential? But if we compare him to all the other Brazilian greats, you talk about Ronaldinho, you talk about Ronaldo, you talk about Rivalo, Kaka, I mean, the list goes on. All those players stood out in their own right at their own time and were at the top of their game.

[Nathalie Giedra]

Yes, no, definitely. And it's funny because he always mentions his. His titles as. As an example of how successful his career has been. When people talk about how he didn't achieve expectations, how he didn't reach the levels that everyone expected him and I think most of the frustration around Neymar, we all. There's no argument about the level of quality of his football. He's a genius with the ball. It's. It's incredible what he can produce. No one, just, no one argues against that. It's, it's just the comparisons with Messi and Ronaldo, I think they, they are tough on him in the sense of they are very committed to football. And Neymar many times didn't show this same level of commitment. We saw him many times partying or just, you know, just a lot, a lot of news non football related with, with Neymar.

[IO Akamolera]

Hey, Ronaldinho loved the party too. Come on. We know that.

[Nathalie Giedra]

Yes, but. Yes, no, definitely. And it's a good example IO because Ronaldinho, this comparison exists. But people say, yeah, Ronaldinho loves a party and, and the end of his career was kind of depressing because he was just, just partying and he didn't care. But he won the Ballon d'or first. So what people usually say is, yes, Neymar, he's doing all that, but without the Ballon d'or without reaching the expectation. And I'm just saying, I'm just mentioning an individual prize. But, but you know, in terms of, of, of other, other titles he could win, I think if he wins the World cup with Brazil, a lot will change in, in, in the perception of people about Neymar. There's a lot in. Always made it very clear that he loves playing for the national team. All managers who worked with him really like him. They don't feel like he's a handful. He, he is a lovely guy. He's really nice to people, he's kind to everyone. But you know, there's like everyone around him is, is not really well seen. His dad and, and his friends and everyone who's just taking him to parties. So a lot of the frustration around Neymar is, is related to that and to those comparisons with Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo.

[IO Akamolera]

Phil, this is the one really, and I guess often will divide opinion in football is that yes, they are the Messi's of this world and Ronaldo's of this world. But surely for us as fans of the game, someone like Neymar just represents a great footballer.

[Phil Hay]

Right?

[IO Akamolera]

Like the script doesn't have to be you look after your body and you end up, you know, having the best ever career. Playing the game at the highest level for all of us is a dream and he did that and he was flashy with it and he was entertaining to watch.

[Phil Hay]

Yeah, he did, and there's no reason why he has to be exactly what we wanted him to be or what we think he should have been. Football doesn't tend to work or run in straight lines, and I think there is a slight risk from time to time that your enjoyment of players or your perception of players is skewed a little bit by how they compare to players like Messi and Ronaldo. Although the fact that those two are kind of moving on now and not far away from the end of their careers might, as an example, help somebody like Lamina, who looks like he's got the potential to be at that sort of level. I might benefit from the fact that he can evolve at a time when the shadows aren't hanging over the European game, but I think at the same time, footballers do like to be spoken about as being close to or in the same company as a Messi or a Ronaldo. Like those sort of comparisons are what the best of the best really want. They're just very, very hard to live up to.

[IO Akamolera]

Yeah right, let's move on because coming next, we talk expectations of wonderkids who cost big money. Starting with us. Belly.

[Jack Lang]

You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Aamolere.

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[IO Akamolera]

Across his career, clubs racked up £330 million in transfer fees for Neymar. It got me thinking, though, about other players who have had exorbitant amounts spent on them and how difficult it is to manage expectations. Barcelona used the Neymar money to spend 135.5 million pounds on Ousmane Dembele from Dortmund in 2017. He struggled to live up to the billing at the new camp, but according to Julian Llorens on the Totally Football Show European Edition, he has turned over a new leaf at psg. Fitinha Dembele with a flick.

[Jack Lang]

Hakimi had continued his run and Dembele does it again. It's a brilliant hat trick from Ousmane Dembele to put Paris out of sight. Surely.

[Unknown Speaker]

The last time he scored a hat trick was 2016 with Rennes. So the guy waited almost nine years for hat trick and two games in four days.

[Jack Lang]

So he was.

[Phil Hay]

Borussia Dortmund bought him and he did well there.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, that one season. Fantastic.

[Phil Hay]

And then he moves when Neymar moved.

[Jack Lang]

To Paris Saint Germain.

[Phil Hay]

Barcelona, go.

[IO Akamolera]

Okay, fine.

[Jack Lang]

We'll bring in Dembele because he's that good.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Phil Hay]

And he became the second most expensive footballer in history. And then that's where the good stuff stopped. Really.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, it was tough for him.

[Phil Hay]

Injuries, a lot of inconsistencies, issues off the field.

[Nathalie Giedra]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Being very young, I think, and a bit immature, I think. And Usman would say himself not really ready for the demands of a top club like Barcelona in terms of simple things like being on time for training.

[Phil Hay]

So what's been the difference this season?

[Unknown Speaker]

It's a good question because he started well in terms of his performances were not bad, but he kept missing a lot of chances. Last season was a Good season for him overall at psg. He obviously came because Kylian was there and they're best friends, all of that, but we never really thought he could be the one stepping up to almost replace what Kylian or filling that hole that Kylian left. To be fair, Luis Enrique has been a very good influence on him in terms of working in front of goal in his finishing the to be in front of goal and what to do. Because sometimes it was not so much the fact that he was not efficient, it's that he would, he would do the wrong thing in front of goal and it's great to see. And he made a bet with his mates that if he reaches a certain amount of goals in the season, they will buy him a Patek Philippe watch and a Rolex watch.

[IO Akamolera]

Yeah, no better incentive than a nice glittery luxury watch.

[Phil Hay]

Basically the same as the bonuses we get here. Yeah, well, exactly.

[IO Akamolera]

Well, yours definitely.

[Nathalie Giedra]

I was going to say, who never was involved in a bet like this, I think.

[Phil Hay]

Did they say a boat there? I, I, I live in Landlor, York. So much used to me I'd have to sell it. Yeah.

[IO Akamolera]

Well, Phil, let's talk about Usman Dembele, one of my favorite players of all time. I mean the guy is so good, he never quite knows what foot he's shooting off or passing off. He's just so in the game. But yet Julian mentions it. He's had inconsistencies and now this season, 16 goals in, in 19 league earned games for Dembele. How impressive of how impressed I should say, have you been with his performance this season. And let's not forget Luis Enrique has to be credited for this because for me he just comes across as this sort of no nonsense coach. If you don't want to play my way, mate, there's the high road.

[Phil Hay]

I like Lewis Enrique a lot. I think he's a good coach. The documentary that was done on him recently is fascinating if anybody hasn't watched it. Proper insight into a guy who's very different and has a lot of kind of unique thoughts. This is quite funny though because you remember the last round of Champions League league stage matches when they were 18 on the one night for the newsletter we were trying to work out how to, to cover the, the whole road ration and we, we reckoned that the best way was to do a match report of five words for all 18 of the games. So we did PSG and Stuttgart in which obviously Dembele scored a hat trick. My report was if Dembele did this consistently Because Barcelona was a kind of washout for him and he has been very much under the radar, which I get at psg, because there have been other players there, other faces and profiles that do just crowd you out. But perhaps it's helping him in Paris and in France that PSG seem to have moved on from the. The Galactico mission that they were on when they had Mbappe and they were recruiting Neymar and. And Messi as well. They've. They seem to have a bit more of a plan as opposed to just throwing money at everything. And I guess in those circumstances there's more likely to be a kind of concerted focus on Dembele and what he can do and what his role should be and how he can be pivotal, as opposed to him being just a bit of the cast around about the bigger players. It does feel like he's coming into his own and at 27, he really should be hitting his prime. And I think it was probably quite telling what we heard there about maturity or immaturity, the need to perhaps grow up slightly. I wonder if that's happened and if the circumstances now are just better for him to thrive. Steve.

[IO Akamolera]

Yeah, good shout, Phil. And natty mentality is interesting because I guess the familiar theme with a lot of these players we're talking about is they're naturally gifted, extremely talented, but maybe don't quite have that mentality to drive them to the next level. I mean, Dembele still got time and we're sort of seeing the signs of a player that's moving forward. But that is so key, isn't it? Do you want to be disciplined enough to get to the next level? Because there are a lot of footballers out there, but not very, very. Not all of them make it to the very top and are winning that Ballon d'or.

[Nathalie Giedra]

And do they have to want it as badly as the others to, you know, because, because this is our expectations, what we. What we want from. From these players. And, and, but it's. It's. In the end of the. Of the day, is our problem to deal with our expectations. But, but at the same time, it is. And the fees, I think the fees are. Are an interesting aspect because it's only going to get worse. The. The market is dictating exorbitant fees window after window, so we will have more young players having to deal with heavy fees and the expectations these fees generate around. Around big talents, you know, so the mentality, I think it is something that you can. You can have ever since you were a Kid. It can be innate in. In a way, but it can also be something if you're around the right people. Like Neymar was in Barcelona with Messi and Luis Suarez and Lizing Hickey. As a coincidence, he was the manager, he was the coach of the trio, the msn. So you can create this mentality, but in the end, it's a matter of, like, they need to make the final call. They are the ones doing all the sacrifices to get to that level. Do they have to? I don't know, but we expect them to. Especially when we see raw talents like Neymar and Dembele and so many young players who have to live with this curse that is their incredible talent.

[IO Akamolera]

You know what, Natalie? I think a lot of that's probably because many of us wish we could be enjoying that ourselves. All of us have maybe played at some point in our life, and it's just a dream to play at the highest level, you know, oh, could you imagine giving me some of that money? Thank you. Or that Patek Philippe watch, In that case, Phil. Still, Nata makes a good point. The money is interesting, isn't it? The transfer fee is really interesting because that can skew that level of expectation. Can't.

[Phil Hay]

Certainly can. Dembele is probably a good example of that. I know we're going to come on to speak about him in more depth, but I think there's nobody better at the moment than Joao Felix. He was 130 million or thereabouts when he went to Atletico Madrid and that was one of the highest fees of all time at that stage. Massive amount of cash. He's 25 now and he's a bit nomadic. He's. He's at Milan having hardly made a splash at Chelsea and not done anything long lasting there. Barely there before. He's moved on again and he's not sticking. So I think it's natural with somebody so talented that there comes a point where people ask, you know, what. What's happened? You know, why didn't he follow the expected trajectory? It merits some exploration and some debate, but Natalie's absolutely right. You know, it's for them to decide how hard they push themselves. And I think it's also dangerous to suggest that ultra competitiveness to the nth degree is an absolute virtue. It's a virtue in being successful at what you do. But whether it makes you happy and whether it works for your private life as well is probably another matter. Football as a human, none of this is painting by numbers. But the problem is, and I mentioned this previously the world class benchmark, is very, very high and in a lot of cases, almost unattainable. And if you do show potential that kind of pertains to, that you're going to be held to. And professional sport is really ruthless.

[IO Akamolera]

Yeah. Well, let's see if we can answer some of those questions around Joao Felix. Feel for you because coming up next, we turn our attention to that exact player.

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[Jack Lang]

This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akamolera.

[IO Akamolera]

Yeah, let us talk about Joao Felix, who joined Milan on loan from Chelsea on Deadline Dave, his fourth club in the last three seasons. 1 48.2 million pounds spent on transfer fees for the Portuguese player in total. Well, let's hear from the Athletics Jack Lance, who is a massive fan of Felix.

[Jack Lang]

Here is Joao Felix well found by Jimenez.

[Salesperson]

And that's a fabulous finish for the debutant.

[Unknown Speaker]

Hi, this is Jack Lang checking in from the front line of the culture war that has erupted in the comments section of my piece about Joan Felix over the weekend. If you haven't read it, you should, but I will also summarize it for you because I'm nice. I just argued that Joan Felix is a Rorschach test footballer. People look at him and see wildly different things. There are people who see a fraud. That's the word that gets thrown around because he has not consistently done it at the highest level despite obviously being the fourth most expensive player of all time. And there are other people, people with common sense, good vision and taste like me, who see him as a genius who has been a bit underappreciated so far. You know, he's just, he's just joyous to watch. You see him and he's all of your 90s playmaker dreams rolled into one. Always doing fun stuff through balls, nutmegs. Really exciting player. Does everything with such style. Does that make him a complete player? No, clearly not. But I think that modern football, as mechanical and as automated as it is, should still have space for these Guys who can spread sprinkle a little bit of stardust on whatever they do. I think Joao Felix is capable of that. I think he's capable of things that not many other players are in the world. And I'm just really hoping that he gets a club where he gets the love and I suppose indulgence in a way that his talent deserves. Of course. Check back in with me in six months time when he's playing Saudi Arabia. Cheers.

[IO Akamolera]

Thanks for that, Jackie.

[Nathalie Giedra]

I like how impartial Jack is.

[IO Akamolera]

You think he likes it?

[Phil Hay]

Hasn't picked his say to the fence, has it?

[IO Akamolera]

Well, this is the thing, Natalie. I'm listening to that and I'm thinking there are some parallels of Neymar really finding the love at a club that, you know, gives you that boost to be yourself. But I said think about Jean Felix and I think he's such a luxury player. He reminds me of a Kakaya, reminds me of some of the Italian greats, like, you know, Totti or, you know, Maldini or maybe even Pero in the middle. He really is a special player, but still hasn't quite hit those heights. Do you think he's found a home in Milan?

[Nathalie Giedra]

I hope so, because I feel for him, I really do. And he's clearly a talented player. But I think with Jean Felix there is also the, the point of like the choices he made. Maybe strategically he didn't make the best choices throughout his career. Thinking about his playing style, I mean, of course Atletico Madrid paid a fortune for him, but is he a Simeone player? I don't see him like that. And then he comes to Chelsea and there are a players wanting to play and, and he's playing the same position as Cole Palmer, you know, so, so maybe he can have a breakthrough in, in a different club with a different, with a more suiting playing style. When we talk about play, when we talk to players who went on loans in, in to different clubs and especially early in, in their careers, they always say that. I was talking to Liam Delap the other day and he was telling me this. One thing that I learned with my loans is to, to choose, choose the places that I go to if, if my, my football is going to be able to develop there in the, in that environment, in that playing style, if I can fit in there. So maybe it isn't, is it, it was an issue and it, it maybe is an issue for, for Jean Felix.

[IO Akamolera]

Yeah, I think that the lap one's interesting because I think Joao Felix, the money was so exorbitant, like it was insane. Right. So Phil Benfica couldn't say no to such a fee and in many respects, perhaps the hand was forced. Maybe he could have stated Benfica for another season moved, but if Atletico Madrid are going to pay that kind of money, sometimes you just got to go.

[Phil Hay]

It's a really good move, I mean, top move. But I think Natalie's correct. You know, stylistically, there are a lot of clubs or a lot of clubs where Xiao Felix isn't going to fit, and a fair number of coaches who isn't going to fit particularly well under either. And Athletico, on reflection, you would think are probably one of those because of Simeone's tactics and his outlook, look, which by the way, I'm a really big fan of, but I don't think it's something that particularly works perfectly for somebody like Xiao Felix in saying that he does have a La Liga title with Athletico, and they've only got two in the last 30 years, so that's really not to, to be sniffed at, but his, you know, versus his talent, his medal cabinet looks a little bare too, it has to be said.

[IO Akamolera]

Yeah, let's go back to the transfer fees, Natalie, because let's look at these players as humans, really. You know, you're very young. Someone pays over a hundred million pounds, euros for you, money you've never even considered would be a turn to your name. No, no, the player doesn't put the value on themselves. How much pressure from the work that you've done and players that you've spoken to, do you feel, do you think they feel of going to these teams for such big money?

[Nathalie Giedra]

It's just that there are players who can completely brush that aside. I remember when, when Alison first moved to, to Liverpool, he was the most expensive goalkeeper in the world. And, and that that fee actually got beaten, like in a couple of days with Kepa, but it was just a matter of a million either way, you know, and, and I remember talking to him about it and he, he's very calm and quiet in life, Alison. So for him it's very easy not to think about it. He just doesn't think about it. He doesn't let it affect him. But people are different, you know, and, and I understand there are, there are players who, who can struggle with that. Another example, Virgil van Dijk. Virgil van Dijk was the most expensive defender when he moved to Liverpool. He dealt with it really well. So we do have examples, but in the end it comes to the mentality and maybe the people around you and the environment you lived in and there's just so much involving a football player. Maybe he's surrounded by people who really need this money, who, who pressure him over it, or maybe he's forced to think about it, or maybe he puts his. This pressure on himself. It's just a matter of mentality and, and we can't expect all players to deal with that the same way because it's. It's not easy if it's a talking point, you know, and then people are asking you about it all the time. It's. It's not. It's definitely not really straightforward to deal with.

[IO Akamolera]

Yeah, I guess. But for every player that doesn't do that world of big transfer fees, there are the likes of the Jude Bellinghams of this word, Phil, who relish those opportunities. You know, they're almost buil it. Probably seen that path for themselves since he was at Birmingham City and then moved forward.

[Phil Hay]

Bellingham has the advantage, and I'm not saying other players don't have this, but he has the advantage of total inner confidence. It doesn't seem to suffer from imposter syndrome at all. And didn't go into Terrell Madrid. Doesn't ever seem to doubt that he's good enough for whatever level it is that he happens to be playing at. I think you're right about him seeing the path. I suspect that deep down, Bellingham probably thinks he's got a ballon d'or in him at some stage. Plus, on top of that, he's got exceptional ability. And you marry the two together and it's a pretty, pretty potent mix. Bellingham is going to be a star of this generation of football. Not necessarily the star, you know, the out and out star, but he's going to be a major name in what goes on over the next decade.

[IO Akamolera]

Yeah. Natalie, can I just circle back to Neymar very quickly? Do you think Neymar, regardless of everything everyone was saying about him, truly believed that he could be the greatest player in the world because he's. I know people that know him, they say he's a really lovely man, like really nice guy. Sometimes a little bit shy, actually. Do you think in his heart of hearts this is a player that said, you know what? I'm going to leave Santos and one day I'm going to win the Ballon d'orle?

[Nathalie Giedra]

I think he does. I don't see him as the imposter syndrome guy. You know, I feel like he's. He's a very confident guy. He's just not committed to the extent of he doesn't do enough to reach his potential because his potential is so high. So he needs to do a lot to reach that very high potential. But I do believe that he trusts him, he backs himself up and okay, I can. I can't play in a high level again. I'm. I'm going back to Santos because I want to. To go back there and I can be important for Brazil in the next World Cup. This is a huge motivation for him. So, yeah, I do think that he, he not only he believes that. I think a lot of people believe that because people are. People keep expecting things from him. It doesn't matter that he moves to Saudi Arabia, if he's back, people are always going to expect something from him. Until the, the day he retires, people will expect something from Neymar because they know the levels he can reach. So not only Neymar, but a whole country really believes that he can, he can play. He can. He. He only needs to do this for seven matches in a World Cup. This is what Brazilians are thinking.

[IO Akamolera]

Just if it could stay fit.

[Nathalie Giedra]

Seven matches, that's all, you know? But of course, I'm joking. It's just. It's a journey to get there. But I do think confidence is not a problem for him.

[IO Akamolera]

All right, and. And who should we be looking out for then in the Premier League as we move forward in terms of Brazilian stars, at least.

[Nathalie Giedra]

Okay, he's not here yet, but he will arrive at Chelsea Stone. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, keep an eye on this kid because I've spoken to. To a lot of Brazilian players who have trained with him in the national team, and they were very quick in. Oh, who's. There is a very new generation of really talented players with Endrick at Real Madrid and Estevan, and they, they are blown away by him on, on training and his attitude. And he apparently, he's a nice kid. He's very focused, focused. So everyone's really impressed with this table. So, yeah, we're talking about expectations. We're a country who are. We're always producing. We're renewing our expectations. You know, it's, it's. It's tough.

[Jack Lang]

It's not.

[Nathalie Giedra]

It's not easy.

[IO Akamolera]

Honestly. Guys, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a really highly entertaining podcast. Talking about what I love. I love attacking players anyway. I just love it. So, yeah, we talking about some absolute stars. Natalie, Mutua, Brigado and Phil as well. Thank you so much. Before I go, actually, I want to tell you guys about our connection Sport Edition, a new game for sports F hands from the Athletic. It's basically a daily dose of trivia. It's so satisfying to solve and let me tell you, it's a little addictive as well. Play now at theathletic.com forward/connections. We'll be back tomorrow.

[Salesperson]

The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

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