Has this season been boring or brilliant?

Summary

The Athletic FC Podcast: "Has this Season Been Boring or Brilliant?"

Release Date: April 15, 2025
Host: Ayo Akamalera
Guests: Duncan Alexander, Jack Pitt-Brooke

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Introduction

In this episode of The Athletic FC Podcast, host Ayo Akamalera engages in a comprehensive discussion with football analysts Duncan Alexander and Jack Pitt-Brooke to evaluate whether the current Premier League season has been boring or brilliant. The conversation delves into the evolving dynamics of English football, tactical innovations, player creativity, and the comparative excitement between the Premier League and the Champions League.

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1. Elevation of Premier League Standards

Duncan Alexander opens the discussion by highlighting the unprecedented rise in the Premier League's standard over the past decade. He states:

“[04:10] I think we are definitely at a point where the standard throughout the league is higher than ever. Players are sort of more dedicated, fitter, healthier than ever and I think the enjoyment's still there for me.”

Alexander attributes this improvement to tactical advancements, enhanced fitness regimes, and greater dedication among players. He posits that even traditionally lower-tier teams like Fulham would dominate past leagues if transported to the present day, underscoring the overall upliftment in quality.

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2. Tactical Evolution and Player Creativity

The conversation shifts to the impact of Pep Guardiola's managerial strategies on English football. Alexander recalls:

“[05:29] If you don't understand tackling, you can't understand English. And eight years on, the question is not, does he understand English football? It's has he killed English football?”

This sentiment reflects concerns that Guardiola's emphasis on complex systems may stifle individual creativity. However, Alexander and Akamalera discuss how Guardiola has adapted by incorporating English football's heritage, balancing tactical rigidity with moments of creativity.

Jack Pitt-Brooke adds nuance by examining the adaptation of players like Jack Grealish within structured systems:

“[06:24] Grealish was a throwback to that. But I think he's found the from individuality to kind of coordinated synchronized team play to be such a big leap. I feel like it just doesn't look the same play.”

This highlights the tension between maintaining individual flair and adhering to modern, synchronized team tactics.

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3. Comparison with Past Eras

The episode delves into nostalgic comparisons between the current season and previous football eras. Akamalera and Alexander reflect on the cyclical nature of football trends, noting:

“[08:25] I think that the standard throughout the league is higher than ever... it's just everything is cyclical. It happens every decade, every generation of fans will suddenly at some point go I remember so and so from 15 years ago.”

Alexander references Herbert Chapman and Jose Mourinho to illustrate that debates over the essence of football are longstanding and often reflective of generational biases rather than objective assessments.

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4. Competitiveness and the Big Six Underachievement

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the traditional "Big Six" teams' struggles this season. Akamalera questions:

“[22:07] Do you see the natural order sort of forming back again to some degree?”

Alexander responds by analyzing the financial disparities enforced by the PSR (Profit Sharing and Revenue) model, suggesting that despite mid-table teams' financial robustness relative to European counterparts, the top spenders still hold a competitive edge:

“[23:50] Ultimately money will always tell, like, will always make the difference and that even the most intelligent, efficient team from the like mid section of the Premier League will not be able to bridge the gap to the teams that can just blow them out of the water on salaries.”

This underscores the persistent challenge of achieving parity despite structural changes aimed at fostering competitiveness.

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5. Champions League vs. Premier League Excitement

The panel contrasts the excitement levels between this season's Premier League and the Champions League. Alexander observes:

“[38:13] I think it's due to the predictability. Having Man City and Real Madrid as the two best teams consistently for a lot of the last 10 years was really bad for the Champions League.”

However, he notes a resurgence in the Champions League's appeal this season, with a more varied and dynamic competition, attributing it to the participation of teams like PSG showcasing coordinated team play rather than reliance on superstars.

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6. Impact of VAR on Football Dynamics

The introduction and evolution of VAR (Video Assistant Referee) have been contentious topics. Duncan Alexander expresses strong opinions:

“[42:28] I hate it. I think it has made football much worse and should be fully removed as soon as possible.”

Conversely, Akamalera acknowledges the technological inevitability of VAR but critiques its current implementation for disrupting game flow and reducing on-field drama. Alexander counters by asserting that historical media pressures were even harsher, suggesting that the sporting community's adaptability could improve VAR's integration.

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7. Future Outlook and Natural Order in Premier League

Looking ahead, the discussion anticipates potential shifts in the Premier League's hierarchy. Alexander speculates that while mid-table teams like Nottingham Forest and Brentford may continue to challenge the traditional Big Six, financial constraints will likely prevent sustained top-tier dominance:

“[23:50] ... I suspect that ultimately money will always tell, like, will always make the difference.”

This suggests a lingering disparity that could maintain the Big Six's prominence despite emerging competitive teams.

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8. Conclusion: Boring or Brilliant?

The episode concludes with a nuanced perspective. While statistical indicators like high goal averages suggest brilliance, subjective factors such as narrative excitement and traditional power dynamics influence perceptions of the season's entertainment value. The panel acknowledges the season's unique blend of improving standards and structural challenges, leaving the verdict open-ended for fans to interpret based on their viewing experiences.

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Notable Quotes

• Duncan Alexander at [04:10]:
  "I think we are definitely at a point where the standard throughout the league is higher than ever."

• Duncan Alexander at [05:29]:
  "If you don't understand tackling, you can't understand English... has he killed English football?"

• Jack Pitt-Brooke at [06:24]:
  "Grealish was a throwback to that... he's found the from individuality to kind of coordinated synchronized team play."

• Duncan Alexander at [42:28]:
  "I hate it. I think VAR has made football much worse and should be fully removed as soon as possible."

• Duncan Alexander at [23:50]:
  "Ultimately money will always tell, like, will always make the difference."

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of The Athletic FC Podcast provides an in-depth analysis of the current Premier League season's dynamics, balancing statistical insights with qualitative assessments. While the season exhibits signs of brilliance through elevated standards and competitive matches, challenges such as financial disparities and VAR's controversial impact temper the overall excitement. The conversation invites fans to reflect on their perspectives, recognizing that the season's characterization as boring or brilliant may vary based on individual experiences and allegiances.

Transcript

[Unknown Host]

When I started podcasting, it felt like I had to figure everything out myself. Booking guests, figuring out rundowns, editing the show, and publishing it. It seemed like the list of to do's got bigger and bigger and when you're starting off with something new, it seems like that just happens. Finding the right tool that not only helps you out, but simplifies everything can be such a game changer. And for millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household name like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. Get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style, accelerate your content creation. Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. Get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into a With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com TheAthletic Go to shopify.com TheAthLetic shopify.com TheAthLETic.

[Raj Panjabi]

Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.

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And I'm Noah Michaelson, also from HuffPost.

[Raj Panjabi]

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[Noah Michaelson]

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[Raj Panjabi]

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[The Athletic FC Podcast Network]

The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

[Unknown Host]

Welcome to.

[Ayo Akamalera]

The Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimwaleri. Has the Premier League been a little boring this season, especially compared to a thrilling round in the Champions League knockout phase? PSG powering forward Kamara Esgali.

[Unknown Sponsor Voice]

Wonderful.

[Ayo Akamalera]

Wow, that is unbelievable.

[Duncan Alexander]

From Khvicha, Khvar and Scalia, Have Pep.

[Ayo Akamalera]

Guardiola's complex systems killed creativity? Or is the entertainment just coming from different places? Tighter mid table races, smarter tactics and more goals than ever. Right with me today in the studio we have the Athletics, Duncan Alexander and Jack Pitt. Brooke as well. Good to have you with us, gents. Duncan, where are we right now? Because if you think about it, football does go around in trends, you know, are we looking at Uber coach, Premier League players? Are we looking at faster football? Is it tactically so different than it was from previous years?

[Unknown Host]

I mean, it has improved a lot, I would say. I mean, I think we saw 2016, a lot of managers came into the league, including Guardiola in it since then. That's nearly a decade ago and we have seen the Premier League sort of standard go up and up. You know, look at someone like Edison, a goalkeeper, his past completion for his career is higher than Paul Scholes's was when he was obviously playing in midfield a long time ago. So yeah, I think we are definitely at a point where the standard throughout the league is higher than ever. I think you probably put a team like current Fulham, if you had a time machine taken back to the mid-90s, they'd win the Premier League by an absolute mile. It's a combination of tactics, fitness, dedication. You know, players are sort of more dedicated, fitter, healthier than ever and I think the enjoyment's still there for me.

[Duncan Alexander]

It's funny, isn't it? Like I remember when Guardiola came in in 2016, the big question was does he understand our game? And do you remember the whole fuss about what is tackles? So this was after City lost to, I think it was Leicester City in that first season where they were really poor and only just scraped top four and somebody asked Guardiola if he coached tackles, and he said, I'm not a coach of the tackles. And this was like a big media storm about this. Like, he doesn't understand. If you don't understand tackling, you can't understand English. And eight years on, the question is not, does he understand English football? It's has he killed English football?

[Unknown Host]

But at the same time, Guardiola's come out this season and said stuff like that. Second balls are more important than ever. In some ways, English football has taken Guardiola and kind of brought him into that realm just as much, I think. So he's adapted his game. I mean, if you look at some of the way City set up now, playing long to Haaland or Edison, as you said, has got four assists this season. It's not like they're playing tick attacker football team.

[Duncan Alexander]

Oh, not at all. Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. So I do think that, you know, he's quite an Anglophile Guardiola, and I think he has taken on some of that Englishness into his stats.

[Ayo Akamalera]

I think you're spot on. And he. He talks about the heritage of English football a lot and how much he's really studied it over time, but sort of on the Guardiola conversation, you know, we look at a player like Jack Grealish, who was. Who some might say seemed a bit freer at Aston Villa compared to, I guess, a much more rigid structure he's facing Manchester City. Is there also a conversation here that, like, perhaps, you know, certain players are either not allowed to be as creative because of these really solid systems, like a Gradiola system, for instance.

[Duncan Alexander]

Yeah, I mean, like, I definitely think that the way that Pep wants to play is the most coordinated, synchronized style of play. I think we've probably seen the Premier League, like, there is just a lot. There's less individuality, I think, in how he wants the team to attack, particularly with the ball. And obviously, the weird thing for Grealish is that Grealish joined City from a Villa team where he was kind of a bit of a throwback in his, like, his individualness, his freeness within that system. Like, it felt like watching Grealish at Villa felt like you were watching something from the 90s or the 2000s or even the start of the 2010s, where I thought, you know, if you look at, like, Suarez at Liverpool, Van Persie Bale, there was a huge amount of scope for individuality even as recently as 15 years ago, and Grealish was a throwback to that. But I think he's found the from individuality to kind of coordinated synchronized team play to be such a big leap. I feel like it just doesn't look the same play. Although I was about to say like this is, you know, this is just the state of modern football. And then I remembered that I'm old enough to remember the has Jose Mourinho like shackled Joe Cole debate. That was 20 years ago. So it's in that it's kind of, you know, it's a different style, it's a different way of playing. But the issue is not itself new.

[Ayo Akamalera]

Yeah, for sure.

[Unknown Host]

I think that's the thing cyclical. It happens every decade, every. Every generation of fans will suddenly at some point go I remember so and so from 15 years ago. They were great. I'm sure people in the 1930s were doing it about players around the First World War. You know, it's just where real men were playing football right before they changed.

[Duncan Alexander]

The Herbert Chapman coached all the individuality of our game.

[Unknown Host]

But Michael Cox did a great piece a few months ago going through Herbert Chapman's book like it was a collection of his writing from, you know, obviously from the 30s. And all the complaints then were exactly the same as now. You know, the player. There's no individualism anymore. Players are concentrating on fitness more than sort of flair. It's just everything is cyclical. Yeah.

[Ayo Akamalera]

Well, Jack, you highlighted an interesting quote from Pep Guardiola from an interview he did with TNT Sport in January. Let's take a listen today.

[Jack Pitt-Brooke]

The model of football is the way the Bournemouth play, the Newcastle play like Brighton play like, you know, Liverpool was a bit like that. Like we were is the modern football doing the modern football is not, you know, positional. And being there you have to rise the rhythm. Unbelievable. It could not simply could not because we didn't have players. All the teams had a lot of injuries. When you play every three days and the place one game a week, the teams are playing all week is another history that doesn't count counting when you play every three, four days and injuries have. But not this amount in certain position. This amount of important players and so on never happened before. And maybe reflect that in the future it would have to be a longer squat.

[Ayo Akamalera]

Yeah, that was Pep Guardiola on TNT Sport. Just explain one of those key points. Especially when you talk about modern football. It not being positional. He talks about players learning to ride the wave of football. But what do you think he means when he's trying to say about modern football changing?

[Duncan Alexander]

Well, the interesting thing about that is at the start of that quote, he sounds like he's almost saying that the way that I always play that is positional has been kind of supplanted by the much more dynamic approach that Iriola takes. But then actually if you play on the clip and you listen a few seconds later, what he appears to be saying is actually City have not had the physical capacity to play their football this season. And the big difference is teams who play once a week who can play that dynamic Iriola style football and teams who play twice a week who don't have the deep enough squad who are there like as he said, like the players can't meet the required rhythm. So even when I first listened to, I remember being really struck by that when I first heard it, thinking he was saying my football's finished. But actually when you listen back to it, I don't think he is quite saying that.

[Unknown Host]

And it's interesting the two teams you mentioned, Newcastle obviously last season struggled because they had to balance a Champions League campaign for the first time with the Premier League. And it really hit them. Bournemouth this year have had loads of injuries, but A people don't notice because it's Bournemouth and B, they've only really been, obviously they did well in the FA cup, but they haven't had a European campaign. If they do qualify for Europe next season, you do fair for their squad because they, they've been on the absolute limit because of the style of play.

[Ayo Akamalera]

But I was also thinking like, I mean the darned word psr. Guys like, you know, how are you genuinely trying to be a decent team, play good football and also hopefully qualify for European football, try and keep consistent with the domestic cups as well when you're not able to spend that much money.

[Duncan Alexander]

This is why I kind of, this is like my theory of why Liverpool have been good this season is that I think that like generally speaking the last like five, 10 years, most managers in the Premier League have just thought that their job is just to like crank that intensity lever as hard as possible. And that's how you got like City, you know, City repeatedly getting the 90 points. Klopp's Liverpool getting into the 90s. Whereas my impression of Slots Liverpool is that he's the first manager he's twigged that at this point with players as tight as they are and the schedule as difficult as it is, you can't crack the intensity lever all the time. You have to find a way to pick your moments, to press. Don't play at full intensity all the time, give the players a little bit more time off. And I wonder whether, and maybe it's no coincidence Liverpool's not suffered any injuries this season and they're going to win the league. And so I just wonder whether Slot has kind of landed on something which maybe other teams could learn from.

[Ayo Akamalera]

Is that quite different to Ange Postecoglou who wants his team to constantly play on that front throttle and actually you're also seeing the back end of that with a whole heap of injuries with his team.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, I mean I think it feels that Postecoglou is like the last figure of a. As Jax is a sort of movement that's almost had its day, you know. And Liverpool, they start a lot of games really slowly this season, really sort of, you know, take the vibe of the game and then ease themselves into it. And I think it really has helped and to Jack's point about points. So it's. This is what league tables often look like in the, in the sort of late 90s, early 2000s. But people did get used to City getting 100 and Liverpool and City ended on 98, 97. And that's not, that's the not normal thing. Yeah, exactly. But the flip of that is that a couple of those seasons, I think 18, 19, the run in when City and Liverpool were head to head, they basically both won every week for about four months. The quality of football and intensity of football that season was amazing. But that, that's the sort of freak season. Not this one. You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akamolere.

[The Athletic FC Podcast Network]

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[Raj Panjabi]

Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.

[Noah Michaelson]

And I'm Noah Michaelson, also from HuffPost.

[Raj Panjabi]

And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.

[Noah Michaelson]

Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.

[Raj Panjabi]

And we're talking like legit credible experts.

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[Ayo Akamalera]

Okay Duncan, let's talk about goals, right in the Premier League this season it's averaging about 2.94 goals per game, the second highest ever. But can high goal average also hide a deeper problem? And by that I was with Rob Lee, old Newcastle player on on Friday and he was talking about defending in a weird way and how the art of defending sort of disappearing. You spoke about Edison being a great ball player. Defenders similar Saliba's up there with one of the biggest ball carriers this season. Are defenders not as good as they used to be as well?

[Unknown Host]

I think they have more to do now, don't they? They're exposed a lot more. I think obviously last season we saw 3.28 goals per game, which is by far. I mean it's the highest goals per game rate in an English top flight season since the 1960s. That really was the kind of outlier. But yeah, people have sort of. I mean, I think we're on 2.97 actually at the moment, which is again the second highest, as you said, and that's also an outlier. But people have kind of. I think I've seen people say, oh, there's not many goals this season. You know, we're also on for the. The second lowest proportion of nil Nil draws after last season and the second highest proportion of away wins after the kind of weird 2021. No fans. Yeah, but that was non canons we forget right existed. But a lot of these things are kind of what people. If you stop someone on the street and say, what do you want from your football? You know, lots of goals, not many near nil draws. The away team have got a chance, the mid table are all competitive. This is what people have been asking for for ages. And yet when it comes a lot, everyone's like not sure if it's this way.

[Duncan Alexander]

Why. Can you think of a reason why people would think this season has been boring given the cold hard facts that you've just deployed?

[Unknown Host]

I think it's because it's quite rare to probably get to the point where the title's done, relegation battle's done and you know, even I think even the fact spurs and Man United are struggling, you know, that takes out sort of two of the big six in terms of drama. I mean their fans are kind of like, you know, kind of already looking forward to next season in league terms, obviously. So I accept that, yes, there's probably not as much end of season excitement as some other seasons, but I don't think it validates all the stuff that got us to this point. You know, some of the football, I think in kind of October, November was really, really good. There's some really, you know, high quality Premier League games. But. But I guess the media cycle now is so kind of relentless that, you know, people sort of have already forgotten that.

[Ayo Akamalera]

Yeah, you know, I'm just on this sort of conversation about lots of goals as well. You know, Jack, 51 games this season have been combat wins. Maybe not the Man United of this world or you know, the Chelsea's of this world, but they have been those matches. And on pace to match last season's record, that, that's a huge sign that matches in many respects are far from predictable. But also I'm thinking about the lens in which we're looking at this. If you are not in Cam Forest fan, this is the greatest season of your life. Surely in with the FA cup, potentially finishing in a position where you'd be back in Europe again after all these years. You know what I mean? The lens surely is different depending on who you're looking at.

[Duncan Alexander]

Yeah, definitely. And I think, I mean forests are clearly like the story of the season, right? Like they're even aside from FA cup run, they've been amazing in the Premier League and nobody, no, and it's probably been the one that's been the most surprising. Like at the start of the season quite a few people, me included, had Forester go down. And so I think that has been the biggest single surprise. And it does show that I think a lot of the kind of noise, not just this season but over the last five years has been the problem with the Premier League is it's too stratified, it's too financially stratified and if you're not in the top six spenders, you're not going to finish in the top six. Whereas Forest, and I'm not saying that's not true, but obviously Forest is a bit of a repudiation of that.

[Unknown Host]

I mean, my theory, one theory is that there's any kind of like five or six templates for Premier League season and we're kind of living through a bit of a 15, 16 season here where some, a lot of the big teams are struggling and a team from the East Midlands, Forest in this case have kind of capitalised not as much as Leicester did that year, but if you go through the history of the Premier League you can sort of see, you know, you can kind of compartmentalise quite a lot of the seasons and each, each category kind of has its own kind of criticisms. I think when people experience them, you know, in terms of like the goals, if you go back to Jack mentioned the Mourinho era earlier, you know, that.

[Duncan Alexander]

Was the lowest 15 goals conceded.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. Petr Cech only conceded 13 in 35 games, which is baffling, but did happen. But people then were like, there's no excitement anymore. And you Know, sky had a habit then of putting all the. The big four clashes on the same weekend and they'd often end like two nil Nils or a nil nil and a one nil. And everyone was just like, we've kind of lost the essence of football here. So I think each era has its kind of. People kind of quite enjoy moaning, don't they? Sometimes.

[Duncan Alexander]

That was what Jorge Valdano called the S word on a stick. Yeah, football era. And, you know, we've obviously moved. You know, football is obviously so different now than it was 20 years ago and yet people will try to make similar complaints.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Ayo Akamalera]

But also, I think, you know, we talk about the Jose Mourinho season. You ask me, any Chelsea fan that want to take those trophies based on that sort of doll football, right? It's like genuinely, what do you want from your team? Do you want them to win stuff or do you want them to stay in the Premier League as well?

[Unknown Host]

It's like the 1990 World cup go around most countries in the world and it's detested for low scoring, just a series of back passes. But go to Ireland or England and it's revered as one of the great moments because like winning, you know, you see with football fans whose team are struggling that they say stuff like, I've just really fallen out of love with football. Funny. Like if your team won eight games in a row, you might rediscover that passion.

[Ayo Akamalera]

Yeah, for sure. Where do we stand? And I'll throw this to both of you, actually. Sort of the underachievement of the classic big six. You know, Manchester United always in the. In the headlines and how. How badly they've done this is how. Or at least the decline we've seen over the last few years. I mean, does anyone deserve to be up there anymore? You know, are we judging a league's success by the fact that the usual players are top of the league, or are we just celebrating the fact that this is a way more diverse space, that there is no game where anyone is destined to win?

[Duncan Alexander]

Yeah, I mean, I think people I know, we just come out of this era of like having two, two big teams playing unbelievable, high quality, going for the title. And I do think this season has missed that a bit. I mean, I think that. I think this season for Drummer would have been much better if Arsenal had been like 10, 15% better. And if we'd had a genuine Arsenal Liverpool title race, I think that could have been really, really good. I don't know if there's. I'M trying to think is there like a. Can you find like a root cause which explains why lots of those teams other than Liverpool have been bad. I mean with Arsenal I think it might just be the gaps. You know, the points gap is quite big but the performance gap, I think really you can just look at it as being a few key injuries and a bit of bad luck.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, I mean Arsenal dropped as many points this season as the previous two combined almost and I think that's it. They've just not seen games out in the way that they were in the previous couple of campaigns. And obviously they've had, you know, a number of bad injuries. But yeah, I go back to my point that this is kind of what happened in 1516 and that I guess ushered in a bit of a, of a new era. That was the season Klopp came into Liverpool and then obviously the following summer Conte came to Chelsea and Guardiola to City. So it doesn't feel like this summer is going to be as transformative but you know, we have kind of gone, just gone through an era I think we probably are approaching. It does feel like the league's in flux at the moment a little bit. I mean, you know, I'm not convinced Liverpool are going to be as good necessary next season. So that kind of really does open it up next season like maybe it will be Arsenal, maybe it'll be someone we've not thought of.

[Ayo Akamalera]

Should we start getting used to Brentford's Bournemouth, Aston Villas, Nottingham Forest there? I say in the next two or three seasons we are in a very strange position. But do you see, this is my question. Do you see the natural order sort of forming back again to some degree?

[Duncan Alexander]

Yeah, it's a good question. I mean I guess the question is like can they make up for what they can't spend on wages? Right. If you have that level of team, can you be so clever and so efficient that you make up for the fact that City and United and the big teams will be spending, let's say 150, 200 million pounds more per seasonal salaries? Because there is an argument that mid table Premier League teams are so rich relative to the rest of Europe that they can still buy a good enough team to be really competitive at the top end, which I do, I buy to an extent. But I suspect that ultimately money will always tell, like, will always make the difference and that even the most intelligent, efficient team from the like mid section of the Premier League will not be able to bridge the gap to the teams that can just blow them out of the water on salaries.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. And you mentioned PSR earlier and I think last summer we saw a very strange kind of shuffle of squads, didn't we? Like Elliot Anderson going to Forest and that obviously really helped Forest, but hasn't hindered Newcastle. But then Newcastle, obviously you've got players like Guimaraes and Isaac who would, you know, other clubs would love to have. So I think there is. We're kind of getting towards a sort of Serie a in the 90s sort of transfer model where I think the internal transfer market is so competitive because everyone can see what these players can do week in, week out. And you do wonder, like, if you look at Forest, you know, how many of that team might get picked off this summer if they do qualify for the Champions League and then that obviously impacts them in the Champions League next season.

[Duncan Alexander]

I suspect not. Not as many as would have been the case in the past. Right. Because in the sort of pre PSR era, if Forest were having a season as good as that, then I mean, like Elanga to Man United is a bad example because you obviously play for them. But like, you know, a team like Man United or whoever would say Elanga going to have him, going to have Gibbs White.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Duncan Alexander]

Going to have Hudson Odoi. But nowadays, like in the era of psr, I mean, firstly, there's no, like Marinakis would just not want to sell these players. But also in the era of psr, they would cost so much money that, you know, it just wouldn't make sense for a Big Six team to spend 100 million quid on one of them when you could go, you know, when you could find like a younger, cheaper version maybe abroad. I think that's psr keeps the players at the team.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, I think it does. And to your point, obviously Leicester won the league and Mahrez went to City and Danny Drinkwood went to Chelsea less successfully. But it proves the point, I think. Yeah, and I think that's good for the league as well. I think it does. It should keep it a little bit more competitive than it would have been in the past.

[Raj Panjabi]

Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.

[Noah Michaelson]

And I'm Noah Michelson, also from HuffPost.

[Raj Panjabi]

And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all two human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.

[Noah Michaelson]

Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.

[Raj Panjabi]

And we're talking like legit credible experts.

[Noah Michaelson]

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[Unknown Host]

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[Duncan Alexander]

JPMorgan Chase bank and a member FDIC.

[Unknown Host]

Subject to credit approval.

[Ayo Akamalera]

Let's get some nostalgia on and compare this to what it felt like in the 2000s.

[Duncan Alexander]

A message for the best possible supporters in the world. We need a 12th man here.

[Ayo Akamalera]

Where are you?

[Unknown Host]

Let's be Avenue.

Lovely run by Ricardo Fuller.

[Duncan Alexander]

Oh, this sensational goal.

[Unknown Host]

You sound as though you're feeling the pressure.

[Jack Pitt-Brooke]

I'm not feeling the pressure. You cannot put pressure on me.

[Unknown Host]

No Chance Stone. And is that an L goal?

[Duncan Alexander]

It is.

[Unknown Host]

Off Popovic. And we're up to Fratton park where there's been a red card. But Luke Kamara, I don't know, Jeff.

[Ayo Akamalera]

Has it and Gerardo.

[Duncan Alexander]

And I mean, you've made your name as a wheeler and dealer. There's not been much wheeling and dealing.

[Unknown Host]

No, I'm not a wheeler and dealer.

[Ayo Akamalera]

Oh, no, he didn't mean it like that. Oh, the joy, the nostalgia. And I guess, isn't this the danger, though? You know, we all think about the mid 2000s, early 2010s, the, the Barclays era. We always think of it, us older men, as the pinnacle of football. Is that nostalgia clouding our judgment, gents?

[Unknown Host]

I think it's an age thing, isn't it? Yeah. If you, the footballers you remember when you're, I don't know, between 14 and 22 are the ones that are emblazoned in your mind forever. You know, I still think about Gary Flitcroft too much. But yeah, I think that's the thing. Like we just, we're at a point where people with a lot of kind of social media voice are that era and it was quite an interesting phenomenon. The sort of sudden two week international break celebration of just you know, a litany of yeah, Barclaysman thing and like. But people have always done that. People have always enjoyed just remembering old football, listing footballers.

[Ayo Akamalera]

But isn't that the beauty of it though? Like, you know, if it turns into this sort of generational conversation, you're going to have that chat with your old man or your mom or your granddad being like, you know, Sir Stanley Matthews, back in my day was the man. I mean that's the joy of football. But is it relevant to today?

[Duncan Alexander]

Yeah, I mean I guess it's people always like making comparisons. I guess people always like, like the sense of history. I kind of traditionally think that football is not that historically conscious relative to other sports. I feel like people. I don't know, I feel like it. I mean I feel like it's certainly in this country like people's unders. People's like interest in football history is like very limited I think to like 1966, Clough, Shankley, Busby. Yeah, Ferguson. You know, I think in the main like there's not quite so much curiosity about like you know like pre second World War football.

[Unknown Host]

Wm.

[Duncan Alexander]

That's much more niche.

[Ayo Akamalera]

Yeah, But I do think though like if you're a club, I know we've spoke about Forrester like if you are a claire like Forest, obviously it's not pre war but like what else are you holding onto? That is all you are holding onto. When you've had this huge lull for so long, you know, it is relevant to bring those times up a little bit that your dad would be like. When I used to watch Forest they were bloody lifting European cups. Not now, but they used to be.

[Unknown Host]

But when I was a kid in the 90s, all I heard from older people talking about football was like this modern football. It's not what it's about. The 70s, that was where you had like individual, proper individual players who could, you know, just do what they wanted and, and then now even, you know, the 2000s players are now seen as this archetype of uberbatovsk. They didn't care about tactics, they just went out there and scored goals. It's like they did care about tactics otherwise they wouldn't have been playing in the Premier League.

[Duncan Alexander]

Yeah, that nostalgia for, like I was saying earlier, like, Berbatov, Suarez, Van Persie, Bale era. But then people will find a way to be nostalgic about stuff that actually happened incredibly recently the other day. There's a clip that people always post on social media of Vincent Compani and Diego Costa challenging for the ball when. Brilliant, brilliant game. It's when Antonio Conte's Chelsea beat Guardiola City in the 1617 season at the Etihad. And it's like people always write on it something like, back when men were men and football was all about physical battle. And I found myself watching it thinking, yeah, look what they took from us. Look how good football used to be when they used to have. You need to have like, real physical confrontation between real players and real personalities and charisma, unlike the kind of drones that play modern football. And. And then I. So I. And I kind of got myself into this mood of nostalgia and I think, let's be avenue, this is only 2016. Like, this is Conte against, like. Conte and Guardiola are two of the best managers of the modern era. They're not like throwback managers.

[Unknown Host]

The problem is as well, in the 90s, you can only really see sort of montages occasionally. Maybe your friend had a video of VHS or something, but now they're everywhere. But montages don't tell you what football's like. There are a few games from the 2000s in full on YouTube and I would recommend going and watching a few of them. And I mean, a lot of the football is just goal kicks is just 20 outfield players roughly near the center circle and the ball just being smashed towards them. So, you know, people are picking out the good bits. Yeah.

[Duncan Alexander]

And it's like when. I mean, you mentioned Talia 90 earlier, like, it's. I think there was a time a few years ago, maybe during the pandemic, where they would show full matches from Euro 96. And obviously Euro 96 has this, like, sainted place. And particularly for people of my age, like I was. I turned eight, I think, just before you. 96. And so for me, this was like the most astonishing thing of all time. And anybody in their, like, mid-30s or older will be able to talk at great length about year 96. If you go, and I hate to say, but if you go back and watch it with modern eyes, it's not great. Like, it's weird even. Like, you know, I mean, obviously England will really get against Holland, but, like, England, Scotland is not a good Game, England, Spain is a profound.

[Ayo Akamalera]

You're forgetting the technology was different. The ball wasn't moving the same way. People weren't hitting a knockable freaky like Cristiano Ronaldo would be doing naturally, because everything's different. The kits are slimmer. You know, they were literally dragging towels around as kids. Like, you know, it was so baggy. Like, now you look at it now, it's a whole different era.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, we, in fact, we did some analysis before the Carabao Cup Final last year when Newcastle got to it against United and their last Wembley appearance in the 50s. And that is a different sport. I mean, yeah, you had flair players, but they had about eight seconds on the ball every time they got it. There was no closing down. So I think it's the fitness that has been the real change. The kind of, the speed and the fitness of modern football has changed how it's played because you don't get any time on the ball. And if you go to a Premier League game now and see how quickly players can manipulate the ball and think it's, you know, it's outstanding.

[Ayo Akamalera]

And something that's also interesting to point out is that in terms of outlets of talking about the game, let's not discount the fact that we're sitting here on a podcast talking about football. I mean, how. How many podcasts would be dedicated to Berbatov alone, let alone talking about the game? You look at Tick Tock, you look at social media, look at Pondy Treat, which has changed so much. Do you think that also in a very strange way, with all that noise, gents, has perhaps contributed to a, a caution in the game, whether it be referees being scrutinized over and over again, whether it be players being scrutinised for either diving or doing something crazy on the field, or not just performing at their optimum?

[Duncan Alexander]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how much. I don't know how much tactics and how the game is played would be influenced by external media noise. I'm generally of the view that managers don't really care if a manager coming up with a plan to win a particular game will just. I mean, they care about if people are nice about them, but they won't, like, change how they approach a game based on. Based on the sort of media noise about their style.

[Unknown Host]

I think, yeah, I would agree. And I think it's always baffling that the kind of Big Ron meltdown and the Keegan meltdown were within five weeks of each other in 96, and that again is like a different time where I think managers did get more wrestled because that, the kind of media attention then was quite new. I think the strike says they're just kind of used to it now.

[Ayo Akamalera]

It's just nice, would you think? I mean, I'm just throwing it out there. A coach like Ange Postecoglou for instance, who hasn't had the best season at Tottenham, how hard is it to cut out all that noise? Because not just us on podcast, but you know, you've also got reporters I think are a bit more poignant with their questions and they'll go there because the pool of reporters now is much wider than it used to be as well.

[Duncan Alexander]

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of managers do. I think a lot of managers are very conscious of the kind of intensity of the media environment. Like the media environment now is very, is very 24 7. It's quite hard to switch off from. But I wouldn't say the media environment now is more critical than it used to be. I actually think that media environment at 20, 30 years ago was a lot harder, particularly if the papers had it in for a particular manager and they were, you know, they would have no qualms about really, you know, giving a battering to a particular manager who they didn't like.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, I mean We've mentioned the 1990 World cup, but like the, the situation between Bobby Robson and the press at that World cup and then subsequently with Graham Taylor and all the turnip headlines, I mean you'd never get that now.

[Duncan Alexander]

No, not at all. And that's really odd.

[Unknown Host]

Just point out that's a good thing.

Foreign.

This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akamalara.

[Ayo Akamalera]

Well, let's move on because let's talk about the Premier League versus versus the Champions League. And I must caveat this obviously that the Champions League is a, it's a tournament in the Premier League is a whole season long league. But you know, why does the Champions League knockout stages this season seem so much more exciting in many respects than, than the Premier League? You know, we've seen what we've seen with psg. I think this, this team sort of grown with the tournament now looking absolute dynamite. Barcelona again beating Dortmund and a team that's grown and found itself in this competition. Beautiful attackers. The styles are different. Why do you think there's more action in that kind of space? Is it because we are genuinely in the knockout stages or do you just think it's a, it's a different flex of different managers?

[Duncan Alexander]

Well, I think this Champions League season is actually contrary to expectations, is looking to be better than it's been for a while. Like, I'm generally of the view that the Champions League has been bad for the last sort of five, six years.

[Ayo Akamalera]

Do you think this format shift has really affected it?

[Duncan Alexander]

No, I don't, because I don't think it's to do with the format. I think it's to do with the predictability. Like, I think that having Man City and Real Madrid as the two best teams in Europe consistently for a lot of the last 10 years was really bad for the Champions League. And I think that also the fact that both Chelsea eventually won the champions league in 2012 and then Manchester City won it in 2023 means that really, Arsenal are kind of the last English team left, and I suppose Tottenham, to a lesser extent, with that sense of, like, Champions League quest. Like, Arsenal and Tottenham have both lost. Been to a Champions League final. Lost the Champions League final. But generally, I don't think that. I think a lot of the shine has gone off the Champions League in the last decade or so because of that predictability. And I just. I feel like sort of maybe the back end of the 2010s, it was kind of quite good, but since then, maybe not so much.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, I think it kind of coincided with the Messi Ronaldo era. It almost became a kind of like, you know, competition between two men to see who could get the most goals. And it was, you know, suddenly everyone cared about most goals scored by an individual in the group stage and all that sort of stuff. And it became a little bit, kind of, to Jack's point, a bit not really a tournament. Whereas. Yeah, I agree, this year feels. And it feels like it's a tournament of teams this year, like psg, you know, they've sold Mbappe, but they now just look like 11 players fighting together. And ironically, Real Madrid look a bit more like PSG used to.

[Duncan Alexander]

Real Madrid are finally looking. It feels like the. I mean, I might regret saying this. I've got no emotional skin in that game, so I can. I feel like Real with Real Madrid. It almost feels like the criticisms that people made of them over the course of the last 10 years are finally coming true. Right. People always just say they're a bad team who find a way to win somehow, but. And then now it's like the second part of that equation doesn't seem quite so true. But you're right. Like, the fact that psg, have. They had the Messi. The Messi Neymar, Mbappe Era, it was really bad. They've got rid of those three guys, and now they're the most watchable team. Yeah, they're amazing to watch.

[Unknown Host]

They're so good in a way that, like, people, some people claim you don't get any more in football, you know, and, like. But when they did have the. The three superstars, I'm not a PSG fan, but I got frustrated watching them because you'd be like, you just put some effort in and you can win more. But I mean, ins for another team, you know, great team, play a different system, play two strikers, you know, great defense. I think there's a lot of interesting stories in this year's Champions League, and kind of whoever wins, it's quite a big, nice story. I think when you look at the teams that left it, there's going to be like a really sort of joyousness with whoever wins it this year.

[Ayo Akamalera]

I find it interesting that, like, the natural order seems to have been disrupted a little. Well, we'll see what happens. Real Madrid in. In the Champions League, and we're going great tournament that. The natural orders changing in the Premier League. And we go, it's a corrupt Premier League. I mean, that's a bit strange, isn't it, for me, because the natural order should always be challenged whichever way you look, because PSG finally look like they've got their act together and they're winning games convincingly.

[Unknown Host]

But I think with the Premier League, you know, who are the best supported team in the Premier League? Manchester United. Where are Manchester United in the table? And, you know, I think those two things might be all right.

[Ayo Akamalera]

And finally, the one thing we haven't spoken about really across, even if you look at the Champions League or the Premier League, is, is that Var, how that has potentially affected the way we look at football, especially this season as well. I mean, I can't tell you the amount of times we've had podcasts, analysis after shows about referee decisions with Var, the match experience changing. How do you think that has changed things for. For you as a fan, but also as a journalist?

[Duncan Alexander]

I think I think VAR has made football much worse. I think that. I think that it's. It has. I don't think it's made a difference to the sort of broader issues of, like, who is where in the table, despite what some people on the Internet would suggest. But I do, I think it. It has really reduced the sense of kind of chaos and drama that you get in individual games. Like, if you're watching an exciting game, you want to See a, like a late goal going and then everybody lose their mind and runs around screaming, right? And you just don't get that anymore because you get like an eight minute wait while they, while they find a reason to try and. To try and disallow the goal. I'm afraid I am. You can't. I'm afraid I'm unable to give you an objective answer on this. I'm completely. I am almost insane in my conviction.

[Unknown Host]

You are very, very insane. Really?

[Duncan Alexander]

I hate it. I think it's. I think it should be fully abolished now. I don't think. I think any tweak or change or little adjustment that you make to VAR is simply. All you're doing is accepting. If you do that, you're accepting the premises of var. I think VAR has destroyed football and I think it should be fully removed as soon as possible.

[Ayo Akamalera]

Come on, Duncan. I mean, he's a lady on the.

[Unknown Host]

Line there, isn't he? Stance. I mean, I can see the argument for it. I think the issue is that you can't really go back now because that's my. It only came in because everyone complained so much. Like we talked about kind of the media noise, but, you know, errors by referees and. Or linesmen were kind of covered to so big an extent after every weekend that it kind of forced the introduction of it. And I think what it showed up was that football is quite a sort of nuanced game and a lot of the laws of. There's. It's not black or white, it's like interpretation. And also showed that most fans and most pundits don't actually know a lot of the laws. You know, there's all these debates we've had in the last five, six years about, you know, the minutiae of this and that. And I think to Jack's point, I do think it does, it is boring, it does make the sport worse, but I just don't see a scenario where we can't not have it. I think we've got to get to a point where it is at least technologically better. I mean, the semi auto, you know, is a bit, is a bit better than what it was before. I think you just kind of need to make those incremental changes and hopefully, you know, it does become a little bit more. Less intrusive.

[Ayo Akamalera]

I thought you had more.

[Duncan Alexander]

I've got time.

[Ayo Akamalera]

I don't think we've got time.

[Duncan Alexander]

I could talk about this for hours, but I'm not sure that's what people tune in for.

[Ayo Akamalera]

You'd be surprised. Jack there's going to be a lot of people that have got time for VAR chat, but I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for joining us. Duncan, Jack and also thank you guys for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.

[Unknown Host]

The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

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[Duncan Alexander]

For the past seven years, the Holderness Family Podcast has been the most favorite thing we do.

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[Raj Panjabi]

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[Duncan Alexander]

So in the spirit of that, we are relaunching our podcast. We are excited to introduce Laugh Lines.

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With Kim and Penn Holderness.

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We hope you'll join us. Search Laugh Lines with Kim and Pen.

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