Has this season been boring or brilliant?

Summary

The Athletic FC Podcast: Has This Season Been Boring or Brilliant?

Release Date: April 15, 2025
Hosts: Ayo Akinwolere, Duncan Alexander, Jack Pitt Brooke
Guests: Kaley Cuoco

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Introduction: Setting the Stage

In this engaging episode of The Athletic FC Podcast, host Ayo Akinwolere delves into a pressing question facing football fans worldwide: Has this Premier League season been boring or brilliant? Joined by seasoned analysts Duncan Alexander and Jack Pitt Brooke, along with insights from Kaley Cuoco, the discussion navigates through the evolving dynamics of English football, the influence of top-tier managers, and the broader implications for players and clubs.

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1. The Rising Standard of the Premier League

Duncan Alexander kicks off the conversation by highlighting the significant improvements in the Premier League's quality over the past decade. He emphasizes that the overall standard across the league has never been higher, attributing this to enhanced tactics, better fitness regimes, and a more dedicated player base.

“I think we are definitely at a point where the standard throughout the league is higher than ever,” Duncan notes at [02:27]. He further illustrates this by comparing current teams to those from the mid-90s, suggesting that a team like Fulham today would dominate the league with the skill and tactical prowess they possess.

2. Guardiola's Influence on English Football

Kaley Cuoco interjects with a historical perspective on Pep Guardiola's tenure in the Premier League. Reflecting on Guardiola's early days at Manchester City, she recalls the skepticism surrounding his understanding of English football, especially following a tough season against Leicester City.

“If you don't understand tackling, you can't understand English football. And, you know, eight years on, the question is not, does he understand English football? It's has he killed English football,” Kaley remarks at [03:45].

Duncan counters by acknowledging Guardiola's adaptability, noting that City has integrated more English football elements into their playstyle, such as focusing on second balls and adjusting their attacking strategies to align better with the league's demands.

3. Impact on Player Creativity: The Case of Jack Grealish

The discussion pivots to individual players adapting to managerial systems. Ayo raises the example of Jack Grealish transitioning from the freer role at Aston Villa to the more structured environment under Guardiola at Manchester City.

Kaley observes, “There is just a lot less individuality in how he wants the team to attack,” at [04:07], pointing out that Grealish's previous style felt reminiscent of earlier football eras where players like Suarez and Bale thrived on personal flair. The shift has necessitated a significant adjustment for Grealish, affecting his performance and style on the field.

4. Cyclical Nature of Football Trends

Duncan and Kaley delve into the cyclical criticisms of football, where each generation laments the loss of certain elements in the game. Duncan reflects on historical figures like Herbert Chapman and current analysts like Michael Cox, noting that complaints about diminishing individualism and increased tactical rigidity are recurrent themes.

“It's cyclically just where real men were playing football right before they changed the offside,” Duncan muses at [06:19], underscoring that such debates are perennial and not unique to the current season.

5. Premier League's Competitive Dynamics

Ayo brings attention to Nottingham Forest's remarkable season, challenging the traditional Big Six dominance. Kaley highlights Forest's unexpected success, emphasizing their departure from financial stratification that typically sidelines mid-tier teams.

“Forest, and I'm not saying that's not true, but obviously Forest are kind of a repudiation of that,” Kaley states at [15:43]. Duncan adds that this season resembles past eras where underdog teams capitalized on changes within the league, suggesting that the current flux may herald a more competitive Premier League landscape.

6. Transfer Market Dynamics: The Role of PSR

The conversation shifts to the transfer market, with Duncan discussing the impact of Player Selling Restrictions (PSR) on teams like Nottingham Forest. He explains how internal transfers have become more competitive, allowing teams to retain talent without the necessity of exorbitant spending.

Kaley concurs, noting, “I suspect not as many as would have been the case in the past,” at [22:00], indicating that PSR policies may help maintain competitive balance by preventing big clubs from monopolizing top talent through massive financial investments.

7. Champions League vs Premier League Excitement

Ayo transitions to comparing the excitement levels between the Champions League knockout stages and the Premier League. Kaley argues that this year's Champions League has defied expectations by being more thrilling than in recent years, attributing this to the absence of predictability and the emergence of more competitive teams.

“I think this Champions League season is actually contrary to expectations, is looking to be better than it's been for a while,” she asserts at [35:17]. Duncan agrees, adding that the current tournament showcases a more team-oriented and less individualistic brand of football, making it more engaging for global audiences.

8. The Impact of VAR on Football

In the latter part of the episode, the trio examines the controversial role of Video Assistant Referee (VAR) in modern football. Kaley expresses strong disapproval, stating, “I think VAR has made football much worse,” at [38:47]. She criticizes the interruption of game flow and the reduction of spontaneity and drama on the pitch.

Duncan offers a more nuanced view, recognizing VAR's role in enforcing rules more consistently but acknowledging that it has also introduced new forms of controversy and slowed down the pace of the game.

“I think what it showed up was that football is quite a sort of nuanced game,” Duncan comments at [39:32]. He suggests that while VAR addresses some issues, it also complicates the spectator experience by focusing on minute details that may detract from the overall enjoyment of the sport.

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Conclusion: A Season of Transformation and Debate

As the episode wraps up, Ayo synthesizes the discussions, acknowledging that the current Premier League season embodies both brilliance and moments that some may find lacking. The rise of competitive teams, tactical evolutions, and external influences like VAR paint a complex picture of modern football. The guests agree that while nostalgia for past eras is inevitable, the present state of the game offers its own unique narratives and challenges that fans must appreciate within the contemporary context.

“This season has missed that bit of high-stakes drama, but it's brought something new to the table,” Duncan concludes, encapsulating the essence of a season that is both a continuation of football's rich history and a stepping stone towards its future evolution.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Duncan Alexander at [02:27]: “I think we are definitely at a point where the standard throughout the league is higher than ever.”
• Kaley Cuoco at [03:45]: “If you don't understand tackling, you can't understand English football. And, you know, eight years on, the question is not, does he understand English football? It's has he killed English football.”
• Kaley Cuoco at [04:07]: “There is just a lot less individuality in how he wants the team to attack.”
• Duncan Alexander at [06:19]: “Herbert Chapman coached all the individuality out of our game.”
• Kaley Cuoco at [15:43]: “Forest, and I'm not saying that's not true, but obviously Forest are kind of a repudiation of that.”
• Kaley Cuoco at [22:00]: “I suspect not as many as would have been the case in the past.”
• Kaley Cuoco at [35:17]: “I think this Champions League season is actually contrary to expectations, is looking to be better than it's been for a while.”
• Kaley Cuoco at [38:47]: “I think VAR has made football much worse.”

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Final Thoughts

This episode of The Athletic FC Podcast masterfully balances analytical depth with engaging dialogue, providing listeners with a comprehensive exploration of the Premier League's current landscape. Whether the season is deemed boring or brilliant may vary among fans, but the insights shared by Ayo, Duncan, Jack, and Kaley offer a nuanced understanding of the multifaceted world of modern football.

Transcript

[Kaley Cuoco]

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[Ayo Akinwolere]

Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimwilere. Has the Premier League been a little boring this season, especially compared to a thrilling round in the Champions League knockout phase?

[Kaley Cuoco]

PSG powering forward Kvara Scalian. Wonderful. That is unbelievable. From Khavicha, Kvar and Scalia.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

Have Pep Guardiola's complex systems killed creativity or is the entertainment just coming from different places? Tighter mid table races, smarter tactics and more goals than ever. Right with me today in the studio we have the Athletics, Duncan Alexander and Jack Pitt. Brooke as well. Good to have you with us, gents. Duncan, where are we right now? Because if you think about it, football does go around in trends. You know, are we looking at Uber coach Premier League players? Are we looking at faster football? Is it tactically so different than it was from previous years?

[Duncan Alexander]

I mean it has improved a lot, I would say. I mean I think we saw 2016. A lot of managers came into the league, including Guardiola in it since then. That's nearly a decade ago and we have seen the Premier League sort of standard go up and up. You know, look at someone like Edison, a goalkeeper. His past completion for his career is harder than Paul Scholes was when he was obviously playing in midfield a long time ago. So, yeah, I think we are definitely at a point where the standard throughout the league is higher than ever. I think you'd probably put a team like current Fulham, if you had a time machine, take them back to the mid-90s, they'd win the Premier League by an absolute mile. It's a combination of tactics, fitness, dedication. You know, players are sort of more dedicated, fitter, healthier than ever. And I think the enjoyment's still there for me.

[Kaley Cuoco]

It's funny, isn't it? Like, I remember when Guardiola came in in 2016, the big question was, does he understand our game? And do you remember the whole fuss about what is tackles? So this was after City lost to. I think it was Leicester City in that first season where they were really poor and only just scraped top four. And somebody asked Guardiola if he coached tackles, and he said, I'm not a coach of the tackles. And this was like a big, like, media storm about this. Like, he doesn't understand. If you don't understand tackling, you can't understand English football. And, you know, eight years on, the question is not, does he understand English football? It's has he killed English football?

[Duncan Alexander]

But at the same time, guy who's come out this season and said stuff like, the second balls are more important than ever. Like, in some ways, English football has taken Guardiola and kind of brought him into that realm just as much, I think. So he's adapted his game. I mean, if you look at some of the way City set up now, you know, playing along to Haaland or Edison, as you said, has got four assists this season. It's not like they're playing tick attacker football.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Oh, not at all.

[Duncan Alexander]

Yeah. So I do think that, you know, he's quite an anger for Guardiola, and I think he has taken on some of that Englishness into his stats.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

I think you're spot on. And he talks about the heritage of English football a lot and how much he's really studied it over time. But sort of on the Guardiola conversation, you know, we look at a player like Jack Grealish, who was, who, some might say seemed a bit freer at Aston Villa compared to, I guess, a much more rigid structure he's facing at Manchester City. Is there also a conversation here that, like, perhaps, you know, certain players are either not allowed to be as creative because of these really solid systems. Like a Gradiola system, for instance.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yeah. I mean, like, I definitely think that the way that Pep wants to play is the most coordinated, synchronized style of play I think we've probably seen in the Premier League. Like, there is just a lot. There's less individuality, I think, in how he wants the team to attack, particularly with the ball. And obviously, the weird thing for Grealish is that Grealish joined City from a Villa team where he was kind of a bit of a throwback in his, like, his individualness, his freeness within that system. Like, it felt like watching Grealish at Villa felt like you were watching something from the 90s or the 2000s or even the start of the 2000s, where I thought if you look at, like, Suarez at Liverpool, Van Persie Bale, there was a huge amount of scope for individuality even as recently as 15 years ago, and Grealish was a throwback to that. But I think he's found the transition from individuality to kind of coordinated, synchronized team play to be such a big leap. I feel like he just doesn't look the same player. Although I was about to say, like, this is, you know, this is just the state of modern football. And then I remembered that I'm old enough to remember the Has Jose Mourinho, like, shackled Joe Cole debate. That was 20 years ago. So it's in that it's kind of, you know, it's a different style, it's a different way of playing, but the issue is not itself new.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

Yeah, for sure.

[Duncan Alexander]

I think that's the thing. Cyclical. It happens every decade, every. Every generation of fans will suddenly at some point go, oh, I remember so and so from 15 years ago. They were great. I'm sure people in the 1930s were doing it about players around the First World War. You know, it's just where real men were playing football right before they changed the offside.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Herbert Chapman coached all the individuality out of our game.

[Duncan Alexander]

But Michael Cox did a great piece a few months ago going through Herbert Chapman's book like it was a collection of his writing from, you know, obviously from the 30s. And all the complaints then were exactly the same as now, you know, the player. There's no individualism anymore. Players are concentrating on fitness, sort of flair. It's just everything is cyclical.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yeah.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

Well, Jack, you highlighted an interesting quote from Pep Guardiola from an interview he did with TNT Sport in January. Let's take a listen today.

[Duncan Alexander]

The model of football is the Way.

[Kaley Cuoco]

The Bournemouth play, the Newcastle play like.

[Duncan Alexander]

Brighton play like you know Liverpool was a bit like that. Like we were is the modern football today. The modern football is not, you know, positional and being there you have to rise the rhythm. Unbelievable. It could not simply. We could not because we didn't have players. All the teams had a lot of injuries. When you play every three days and they play one game a week, the teams are playing all week is another history that doesn't count counting when you.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Play every three, four days the injuries have.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

But not this amount in certain position.

[Duncan Alexander]

This amount in important players and so.

[Kaley Cuoco]

On never happened before and made me.

[Duncan Alexander]

Reflect that in the future we have to be a longer squat.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

Yeah, that was Pep Guardiola on TNT Sport. Just explain one of those key points. Especially when you talk about modern football. It not being positional. He talks about players learning to ride the wave of football. But what do you think he means when he's trying to say about modern football changing?

[Kaley Cuoco]

Well, the interesting thing about that is at the start of that quote he sounds like he's almost saying that the way that I always play that is positional has been kind of supplanted by the much more dynamic approach that Iriola takes. But then actually if you play on the clip and you listen a few seconds later, what he appears to be saying is actually City have not had the physical capacity to play their football this season. And the big difference is teams who play once a week who can play that dynamic Areola style football and teams who play twice a week who don't have the deep enough squad who are there. As he said, the players can't meet the required rhythm. So even when I first listened to I remember being really struck by that when I first heard it thinking he was saying my football's finished. But actually when you listen back to it I don't think he is quite saying that.

[Duncan Alexander]

And it's interesting the two teams you mentioned, Newcastle last season struggled because they had to balance a Champions League campaign for the first time with with the Premier League. And it really hit them. Bournemouth this year have had loads of injuries but A people don't notice because it's Bournemouth and B they've only really been. Obviously they did well in the FA cup but they haven't had a European campaign. If they do qualify for Europe next season you do fear for their squad because they've been on the absolute limit because of the style of play.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

Well, I was also thinking like I mean the darned word PSR guys like you Know how are you genuinely trying to be a decent team, play good football and also hopefully qualify for European football, Try and keep consistent with the domestic cups as well when you're not able to spend that much money.

[Kaley Cuoco]

This is why I kind of. This is like my theory of why Liverpool have been good this season is that I think that generally speaking, the last five, ten years, most managers in the Premier League have just thought that their job is just to crank that intensity lever as hard as possible. And that's how you got City repeatedly getting the 90 points. Klopp's Liverpool getting into the 90s. Whereas my impression of Slots Liverpool is that he's the first manager who's twigged that at this point with players as tight as they are and the schedule as difficult as it is, you can't crack the intensity lever all the time. You have to find a way to pick your moments to press. Don't play at full intensity all the time. Give the players a little bit more time off. And I wonder whether, and you know, maybe it's no coincidence Liverpool's not suffered any injuries this season and they're going to win the league. And so I just wonder whether Slot has kind of landed on something which maybe other teams can learn from.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

Is that quite different to Ange Postecoglou who wants his team to constantly play on that front throttle and actually you're also seeing the back end of that with a whole heap of injuries with his team.

[Duncan Alexander]

Yeah, I mean I think it feels like Postecoglou is like the last figure of a. As Jax is a sort of movement that's almost had its day, you know, and Liverpool, they start a lot of games really slowly this season, really sort of, you know, take the vibe of the game and then ease themselves into it. And I think it really has helped. And to Jack's point about points, you know, this is what league tables often look like in the, in the sort of late 90s, early 2000s. But people did get used to City getting 100 and Liverpool and City ended on 98, 97. And, and that's not. That's the not normal thing.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yeah, exactly.

[Duncan Alexander]

But, but, but the flip of that is that a couple of those seasons, I think 18, 19, the run in when City and Liverpool were head to head, they basically both won every week for about four months. The quality of football and intensity of football that season was amazing. But that's the sort of freak season. Not this one. You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akinwaleere right now at the.

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[Ayo Akinwolere]

Okay Duncan, let's talk about goals right in the Premier League this season it's averag out 2.94 goals per game, the second highest ever. But can high goal average also hide a deeper problem? And by that I was with Rob Lee old Newcastle player on on Friday and he was talking about defending in a weird way and how the art of defending sort of disappearing. You spoke about Edison being a great ball player. Defenders similar Saliba's up there with one of the biggest ball carriers this season at defender is not as good as they used to be as well.

[Duncan Alexander]

I think they have more to do now, don't they? They're exposed a lot more. I think obviously last season we saw 3.28 goals per game which is by far. I mean it's the highest goals per game rate in English top flight season since the 1960s. That really was the kind of outlier. But yeah, people have sort Of, I mean, I think we're on 2.97 actually at the moment, which is again the second highest as you said, and that's also an outlier. But people have kind of. I think I've seen people say, oh, there's not many goals this season. You know, we're also on for the. The second lowest proportion of nil. Nil draws after last season and the second highest proportion of away wins after the kind of weird 2021. No fans. Yeah, but that was non canons we forget existed. But a lot of these things are kind of what people. If you stop someone on the street and say, what do you want from your football? You know, lots of goals. No, not many, near no draws. The away team have got a chance, the mid table are all competitive. This is what people have been asking for for ages. And yet when it comes a lot and everyone's like not sure if it is what it was.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Why. Can you think of a reason why people would think this this season has been boring given the cold hard facts that you've just deployed?

[Duncan Alexander]

I think it's because it's quite rare to probably get to a point where the title's done, relegation battle's done and you know, even I think even the fact spurs and Man United are struggling, you know, that takes out sort of two of the big six in terms of drama. I mean their fans are kind of like, you know, kind of already looking forward to next season in league terms, obviously. So I accept that. Yes, there's probably not as much end of season excitement as some other seasons, but I don't think it validates all the stuff that got us to this point. You know, some of the football, I think in kind of October, November was really, really good. There's some really, you know, high quality Premier League games. But. But I guess the media cycle now is so kind of relentless that, you know, people sort of have already forgotten that.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

Yeah, you know, I'm just on this sort of conversation about lots of goals as well. You know Jack, 51 games this season have been combat wins. Maybe not the Man United of this world or you know, the Chelsea's of this world, but they have been those matches. And on pace to match last season's record. That's a huge sign that matches in many respects are far from predictable. But also I'm thinking about the lens in which we're looking at this. If you are an Ottingham Forest fan, this is the greatest season of your life. Surely in with the FA cup, potentially finishing in a position where you'd be back in Europe again after all these years, you know, I mean, the lens surely is different depending on who you're looking at.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yeah, definitely. And I think for. I mean, Forest are clearly like the story of the season, right? Like they're even. Aside from FA cup run, they've been amazing in the Premier League and nobody. No. And it's probably been the one that's been the most surprising. Like at the start of the season, quite a few people, me included, had Forest to go down. And so I think that has been the biggest single surprise. And it does show that, you know, I think a lot of the. A lot of the kind of noise, not just this season, but over the last five years, has been the problem with the Premier League is it's too stratified, it's too financially stratified. And if you're not in the top six spenders, you're not going to finish in the top six. Whereas Forest, and I'm not saying that's not true, but obviously Forest, kind of a bit of a repudiation of that.

[Duncan Alexander]

I mean, my theory, one theory is that there's only kind of like five or six templates for Premier League season, and we're kind of living through a bit of a. A 15, 16 season here where a lot of the big teams are struggling and a team from the East Midlands, Forest, in this case, have kind of capitalised, not as much as Leicester did that year, but if you go through the history of the Premier League, you can sort of see, you know, you can kind of compartmentalise quite a lot of the seasons. And each. Each category kind of has its own kind of criticisms. I think when people experience them, you know, in terms of, like, the goals. If you go back to Jack mentioned the Mourinho era earlier, you know, that.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Was the lowest 15 goals conceded.

[Duncan Alexander]

Yeah, pet. Checking conceded 13 in 35 games, which is baffling, but did happen. But people then were like, there's no excitement anymore.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yeah.

[Duncan Alexander]

And, you know, sky had a habit then of putting all the. The big four clashes on the same weekend and they'd often end like two nil Nils or a nil nil and a one nil. And everyone was just like, we've kind of lost the essence of football here. So I think each era has its kind of. People kind of quite enjoy moaning, don't they? Sometimes you can't find.

[Kaley Cuoco]

That was what Jorge Valdano called the S word on a stick football era. And, you know, we've obviously moved. Football is obviously so different now than it was 20 years ago. And yet people will try to make similar complaints.

[Duncan Alexander]

Right.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

But also, I think, you know, we talk about the Jose Mourinho season. You ask me, any Chelsea fan that want to take those trophies based on that sort of dole football, right? It's like genuinely, what do you want from your team? Do you want them to win stuff or do you want them to stay in the Premier League as well?

[Duncan Alexander]

It's like the 1990 World cup go around most countries in the world and it's detested for low scoring, just a series of back passes. But go to Ireland or England and it's revered as one of the great moments because like winning, you know, you see what football fans whose team are struggling, they say stuff like, I've just really fallen out of love with football. Funny. Like if your team won eight games in a row, you might rediscover that passion.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

Yeah, for sure. Where do we stand? And I'll throw this to both of you, actually. Sort of the underachievement of the classic big six. You know, Manchester United always in the. In the headlines and how badly they've done this, or at least the decline we've seen over the last few years. I mean, does anyone deserve to be up there anymore? You know, are we judging a league's success by the fact that the usual players are top of the league, or we just celebrating the fact that this is a way more diverse space, that there is no game where anyone is destined to win?

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yeah, I mean, I think people I know, we just come out of this era of like having two, two big teams playing unbelievable, high quality, going for the title. And I do think this season has missed that a bit. I mean, I think that. I think this season for Drummer would have been much better if Arsenal had been like 10, 15% better. And if we'd had a genuine Arsenal Liverpool title race, I think that could have been really, really good. I don't know if there's. I'm trying to think, is there like a. Can you find like a root cause? Which explains why lots of those teams other than Liverpool have been bad. I mean, with Arsenal, I think it might just be the gaps. You know, the points gap is quite big, but the performance gap, I think really you can just look at it as being a few key injuries and a bit of bad luck.

[Duncan Alexander]

Yeah, I mean, Arsenal dropped as many points this season as the previous two combined almost. And I think that's it. They've just not seen games out in the way that they were in the previous couple of campaigns and obviously they've had, you know, a number of bad injuries. But yeah, I go back to my point that this is kind of what happened in 1516 and that I guess ushered in a bit of a. Of a new era. That was the season Klopp came into Liverpool and then obviously the following summer Conte came to Chelsea and Guardiola to City. So it doesn't feel like this summer is going to be as transformative but you know we have kind of gone, just gone through an era I think we probably are approaching. It does feel like the league's in flux at the moment a little bit. I mean, you know, I'm not convinced Liverpool are going to be as good necessarily next season. So that kind of really does open it up next season. Like maybe it will be Arsenal, maybe it'll be someone we've not thought of.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

Should we start getting used to Brentford's Bournemouth, Aston Villas, Nottingham Forest there? I say in the next two or three seasons we are in a very strange position. But do you see this is my question. Do you see the natural order sort of forming back again to some degree?

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yeah, it's a good question. I mean I guess the question is like can they make up for what they can't spend on wages? Right? Like can they. If you're of that level of team, can you be so clever and so efficient that you make up for the fact that City and United and the big teams will be spending let's say 150, 200 million pounds more per seasonal salaries? Because there is an argument that mid table Premier League teams are so rich relative to the rest of Europe that they can still buy a good enough team to be really competitive at the top end which I buy to an extent but I suspect that ultimately money will always tell like will always make the difference and even, even the most intelligent, efficient team from the mid section of the Premier League will not be able to bridge the gap to the teams that can just blow them out of the water on salaries.

[Duncan Alexander]

Yeah and you mentioned PSR earlier and I think last summer we saw a very strange kind of shuffle of squads, didn't we like Elliot Anderson going to Forest and that obviously really helped Forest but hasn't hindered Newcastle. But then Newcastle obviously have got players like Guimaraes and Isak who would, you know, other clubs would love to have. So I think there is, we're kind of getting towards a sort of Serie a in the 90s sort of transfer model where I think the internal transfer market is so competitive because everyone can see what these players can do week in, week out. And you do wonder, like, if you look at Forest, you know, how many of that team might get picked off this summer if they do qualify for the Champions League, and then that obviously impacts them in the Champions League next season.

[Kaley Cuoco]

I suspect not as many as would have been the case in the past. Right. Because in the sort of pre PSR era, if Forest were having a season as good as that, then, I mean, like, Elanga to Man United is a bad example because you obviously play for them, but like, you know, a team like Man United or whoever would say, Elanga, gonna have him. Gonna have Gibbs White.

[Duncan Alexander]

Yeah.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Gonna have Hudson Odoi. But nowadays, like, in the era of psr, I mean, firstly, there's no, like, Marinakis would just not want to sell these players. But also in the era of psr, they would cost so much money that, you know, it just wouldn't make sense for a Big Six team to spend 100 million quid on one of them when you could go, you know, when you could find like a younger, cheaper version, maybe abroad.

[Duncan Alexander]

I think that's a psr.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Keeps the players at the teams.

[Duncan Alexander]

Yeah, I think it does. And to your point, obviously, Leicester won the league and Mahrez went to City and Danny Drinkwood went to Chelsea. Less successfully. But it proves the point, I think. Yeah. And I think that's good for the league as well. I think it does. It should keep it a little bit more competitive than it would have been in the past.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Wow, this house is cute.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

But can I really get in the.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Game in this economy? I do have savings and I am responsible.

[Duncan Alexander]

Ish.

[Kaley Cuoco]

I should bury it. I'm being wild. But what if I'm not being wild, though? Could I actually score a kick off.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

Your home buying journey with Zillow's new buyability tool? It makes it easy to find out what you can afford so you can get off the bench and onto the playing field with confidence. Check your buyability only on Zillow. Let's get some nostalgia on and compare this to what it felt like in the 2000s.

[Kaley Cuoco]

A message for the best possible supporters in the world. We need a 12th man here.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

Where are you?

[Kaley Cuoco]

Let's the Avenue. Lovely run by Ricardo F. Oh, Nesing. What a sensational goal.

[Duncan Alexander]

You sound as though you're feeling the pressure. I'm not feeling the pressure.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

No.

[Kaley Cuoco]

You cannot put pressure on me.

[Duncan Alexander]

No. Chance Stone. And is that an L goal?

[Kaley Cuoco]

It is.

[Duncan Alexander]

Oh, Popovic. And we're off to Fratton park, where there's been a red card.

[Kaley Cuoco]

But who?

[Duncan Alexander]

Chris Kamara? I don't know, Jeff Hazard and Gerardo.

[Kaley Cuoco]

And I mean you've made your name as a wheeler and dealer. There's not been much wheeling and dealing with.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

No, I don't mean it like that. Oh, the joy, the nostalgia. And I guess isn't this the danger though? You know, we all think about the. The mid 2000s, early 2010s, the, the Barclays era. We always think of it, us older men, as the pinnacle of football. Is that nostalgia clouding our judgment, Gents?

[Duncan Alexander]

I think it's an age thing, isn't it? The footballers you remember when you're, I don't know, between 14 and 22 are the ones that are emblazoned in your mind forever. You know, I still think about Gary Flitcroft too much. But yeah, I think that's the thing. Like we just, we're at a point where people with a lot of kind of social media voice are that era. And it was quite an interesting phenomenon, this sort of sudden two week international break celebration of just, you know. Yeah, bark is one thing and like. But people have always done that. People have always enjoyed just remembering old football listing footballers.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

But isn't that the beauty of it though? Like, you know, if it turns into this sort of generational conversation, you're going to have that chat with your old man or your mom or your granddad being like, you know, Sir Stanley Matthews, back in my day was the man. I mean that's the joy of football. But is it relevant to today?

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yeah, I mean, I guess it's people always like making comparisons. I guess people always like, like the sense of history. I kind of traditionally think that football is not that historically conscious relative to other sports. I feel like people, I don't know, I feel like. I mean, I feel like certainly in this country, like people's unders. People's like interest in football history is very limited, I think to like 1966, Clough, Shankly, Busby. Yeah, Ferguson. You know, I think in the main there's not quite so much curiosity about like, you know, like pre Second World War football.

[Duncan Alexander]

W. That's much more niche.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

Yeah, but I do think though, like if you're a club, I know we've spoke about Forest a lot. If you are a club like Forest, obviously it's not pre war but like what else are you holding on to? That is all you are holding on to when you've had this huge lull for so long. You Know, it is relevant to bring those times up a little bit that your dad would be like. When I used to watch Forest, they were bloody lifting European cups. Not now, but they used to be.

[Duncan Alexander]

But when I was a kid in the 90s, all I heard from older people talking about football was like this. Modern football. It's not what it's about. The 70s, that was where you had, like, individual, proper individual players who could, you know, just did what they wanted and. And then now even, you know, the 2000s players are now seen as this archetype of, you know, uberbatovs. They. They didn't care about tactics. They just went out there and scored. Girls. It's like they did care about tactics, otherwise they wouldn't have been playing in the Premier League.

[Kaley Cuoco]

So, yeah, like, yeah, like that kind of. It's that nostalgia for the, like I was saying earlier, like, Berbatov, Suarez, Van Persie, Bale era. But then people, like, people find a way to be nostalgic about stuff that actually happened incredibly recently the other day. There's a clip that people always post on, on social media of Vincent Kompani and Diego Costa challenging for the ball when. Brilliant, brilliant game. It's when Antonio Conte's Chelsea beat Guardiola City in the 1617 season at the Etihad. And it's like people always write on it something like, you know, back when men were men and like, football was all about physical battle. And I found myself watching it thinking, yeah, look what they took from us. Look how good football used to be when they used to have, like, real physical confrontation between real players and real personalities and charisma, unlike the kind of drones that play modern football. And then I kind of got myself into this mood of nostalgia about it. And I think, let's be avenue, this is only 2016. Like, this is Conte. Like, Conte and Guardiola are two of the best managers of the modern era. They're not like throwback managers.

[Duncan Alexander]

The problem is, as well, in the 90s, you can only really see sort of montages occasionally. Maybe your friend had a video of VHS or something, but now they're everywhere. But montages don't tell you what football's like. There are a few games from the 2000s in full on YouTube and I would recommend going and watching a few of them. And I mean, a lot of the football is just goal kicks is just 20 outfield players roughly near the center circle and the ball just been smashed towards them. So, you know, it's like when they're picking out the good bits.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yeah. And it's like when. I mean, you mentioned Talia 90 earlier. Like, it's. I think there was a time a few years ago, maybe during the pandemic, where they would show full matches from €96. And obviously €96 has this, like, sainted place. And I'm at. Particularly for people of my age, like, I was. I turned 8, I think, just before you were 96. And so for me, this was like, the most astonishing thing of all time. And anybody in their, like, mid-30s or older will be able to talk at great length about your 96 if you go. And I hate to say, but if you go back and watch it with modern eyes, it's not great. Like, it's really even, like, you know, I mean, obviously England were really good against Holland, but, like, England, Scotland is not a good game. England, Spain is a profoundly bad.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

You're forgetting the technology was different. The ball wasn't moving the same way. People weren't hitting a knockable freaky like Cristiano Ronaldo would be doing naturally, because everything's different. The kits are slimmer. You know, they were literally dragging towels around as kids. Like, you know, it was so baggy. Like, now you look at it now, it's a whole different era.

[Duncan Alexander]

Yeah, we. In fact, we did some analysis before the Carabao Cup Final last year when Newcastle got to it against United and their last Wembley appearance in the 50s. And that is a different sport. I mean, yeah, you had flair players, but they had about eight seconds on the ball every time they got it. There was no closing down. So I think it's the fitness that has been the real change. The kind of the speed and the fitness of modern football has changed how it's played because you don't get any time on the ball. And if you go to a Premier League game now and see how quickly players can manipulate the ball and think is, you know, it's outstanding.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

And something that's also interesting to point out is that in terms of outlets of talking about the game, let's not discount the fact that we're sitting here talking on a podcast, talking about football. I mean, how. How many podcasts would be dedicated to Berbatov alone, let alone talking about the game? You look at TikTok, you look at social media, look at punditry, which has changed so much. Do you think that also in a very strange way, with all that noise, gents, has perhaps contributed to a caution in the game, whether it be referees being scrutinized over and over again, whether it be players being scrutinized for either diving or doing something crazy on the field, or not just performing at their own optimum.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't. I don't know how much. I don't know how much tact, like tactics and how the game is played would be influenced by external media noise. I'm generally of the view that managers don't really care, like. Like if a manager coming up with a plan to win a particular game will just. I mean, they. They care about. If people are nice about them, but they won't, like, change how they approach a game based on. Based on the sort of media noise about their style. I think.

[Duncan Alexander]

Yeah, I would agree. And I think it's always baffling that the kind of Big Ron meltdown and the Keegan meltdown were within five weeks of each other in 96. And that, again, is like a different time where I think managers did get more wrestled because the kind of media attention then was quite new. I think, as Jack says, they're just kind of used to it now.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

It's just nice, would you think? I mean, I'm just throwing it out there. A coach like Ange Postecoglou, for instance, who hasn't had the best season at Tottenham, how hard is it to cut out all that noise? Because not just us on podcast, but, you know, you've also got reporters, I think, are a bit more poignant with their questions and they'll go there because the pool of reporters now is much wider than it used to be as well.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of managers do. I think a lot of managers are very conscious of the kind of intensity of the media environment. Like the media environment now is very. Is very 24 7. It's quite hard to switch off from. But I wouldn't say the media environment now is more critical than it used to be. I actually think that the media environment of 20, 30 years ago was a lot harder, particularly like, if the papers had it in for a particular manager and they were, you know, they would have no qualms about really giving a battering to a particular manager who they didn't like.

[Duncan Alexander]

Yeah, I mean, We've mentioned the 1990 World cup, but like the situation between Bobby Robson and the press at that World cup and then subsequently with. With Graham Taylor and all the turnip headlines. I mean, you'd never get that now.

[Kaley Cuoco]

No, not at all.

[Duncan Alexander]

Just point out that's a good thing.

[Kaley Cuoco]

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[Ayo Akinwolere]

88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate.

[Kaley Cuoco]

To severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis.

[Duncan Alexander]

That is not well controlled with prescription.

[Kaley Cuoco]

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[Ayo Akinwolere]

Eye problems can occur.

[Kaley Cuoco]

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[Ayo Akinwolere]

Year membership, giving them access to discounted.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Tetons at thousands of courses. Learn [e-mail] golf with us what would you like the power to do? Bank of America restrictions apply cbfa.com golf with us for complete details. Copyright 2025 bank of America Corporation this.

[Duncan Alexander]

Is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akamolera.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

Well, let's move on because let's talk about the Premier League versus the Champions League. And I must caveat this, obviously that the Champions League is a is a tournament and the Premier League is a whole season long league. But you know, why does the Champions League knockout stages this season seem so much more exciting in many respects than than the Premier League? You know, we've seen what we've seen with PSG and this team sort of grown with the tournament now looking absolute dynamite. Barcelona again beating Dortmund and a team that's grown and found itself in this competition Beautiful attackers. The styles are different. Why do you think there's more action in that kind of space? Is it because we are genuinely in the knockout stages, or do you just think it's a. It's a different flex of different managers?

[Kaley Cuoco]

Well, I think this Champions League season is actually contrary to expectations, is looking to be better than it's been for a while. Like, I'm generally of the view that the Champions League has been bad for the last sort of five, six years.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

Do you think this format shift has really affected it?

[Kaley Cuoco]

No, I don't think. Because I don't think it's to do with the format. I think it's to do with the predictability. Like, I think that having Man City and Real Madrid as the two best teams in Europe consistently for a lot of the last 10 years was really bad for the Champions League. And I think that also the fact that both Chelsea eventually won the champions league in 2012 and then Manchester City won it in 2023 means that really, Arsenal are kind of the last English team left. And I suppose Tottenham, to a lesser extent, with that sense of, like, Champions League quest, like, Arsenal and Tottenham have both lost. Been to a Champions League final. Lost the Champions League final. But generally, I don't think that. I think a lot of the shine has gone off the Champions League in the last decade or so because of that predictability. And I just. I feel like maybe the back end of the 2010s it was kind of quite good, but since then, maybe not so much.

[Duncan Alexander]

Yeah, I think it kind of coincided with the Messi Ronaldo era. It almost became a kind of like, you know, competition between two men to see who could get the most goals. And it was, you know, suddenly everyone cared about most goals scored by an individual in the group stage and all that sort of stuff. And it became a little bit, kind of, to Jack's point, a bit not really a tournament, whereas. Yeah, I agree, this year feels. And it feels like it's a tournament of teams this year, like PSG. You know, they've sold Mbappe, but they now just look like 11 players fighting together. And ironically, Real Madrid look a bit more like PSG used to.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Real Madrid are finally looking. It feels like the. I mean, I might regret saying this before they play Arsenal, but I've got no emotional skin in that game, so I can. I feel like real with Real Madrid. It almost feels like the criticisms that people made of them over the course of the last 10 years are finally coming true. Right. People always just say they're A bad team who find a way to win somehow. But. And then now it's like the second part of that equation doesn't seem quite so true. But you're right. Like the fact that psg, have. They had the Messi. The Messi Neymar, Mbappe era. It was really bad. They've got rid of those three guys and now they're the most watchable team. They're amazing to watch.

[Duncan Alexander]

They're so good in a way that, like, people, some people claim you don't get anymore in football, you know, and like. But when they did have the. The three superstars, I'm not a PSG fan, but I got frustrated watching them because you'd be like, you just put some effort in and you can win more. But I mean, ins for another team, you know, great team, play a different system, play two strikers, you know, great defense. I think there's a lot of interesting stories in this year's Champions League, and kind of whoever wins, it's quite a big, nice story. I think when you look at the teams that left it, there's going to be like a really sort of joyousness with whoever wins it this year.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

I find it interesting that, like, the natural order seems to have been disrupted a little. Well, we'll see what happens. Real Madrid in. In the Champions League and we're going. Great tournament that. The natural orders changing in the Premier League and we go, it's a corrupt Premier League. I mean, that's a bit strange, isn't it, for me, because the natural order should always be challenged whichever way you look, because PSG finally look like they've got their act together and they're winning games convincingly.

[Duncan Alexander]

But I think with the Premier League, you know, who are the best supported team in the Premier League? Manchester United. Where are Manchester United in the table? And, you know, I think those two.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

Things might be all right. And finally, the one thing we haven't spoken about really across, even if you look at the Champions League or the Premier League, is is that Var, how that has potentially affected the way we look at football, especially this season as well. I mean, I can't tell you the amount of times we've had podcasts, analysis after shows about referee decisions with Var, the match experience changing. How do you think that has changed things for you as a fan but also as a journalist?

[Kaley Cuoco]

I think VAR has made football much worse. I think that it has. I don't think it's made a difference to the sort of broader issues of like, who is where on the table. Despite what some people on the Internet would suggest. But I think it has really reduced the sense of kind of chaos and drama that you get in individual games. Like if you're watching an exciting game, you want to see a late goal go in and then everybody loses their mind and runs around screaming, right? And you just don't get that anymore because you get like an eight minute wait while they find a reason to try and. To try and disallow the goal. I'm afraid I am. You can't. I'm afraid I'm unable to give you an objective answer on this. I'm completely. I am almost insane in my conviction.

[Duncan Alexander]

You are very, very insane. Really?

[Kaley Cuoco]

You hate it. I hate it. I think it should be fully abolished now. I don't think. I think any tweak or change or little adjustment that you make to VAR is simply all you're doing is accepting. If you do that, you're accepting the premises of var. I think VAR has destroyed football and I think it should be fully removed as soon as possible.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

Come on, Duncan. I mean, he's a lady on the.

[Duncan Alexander]

Line there, isn't he? That's a stance. I mean, I can see the argument for it. I think the issue is that you can't really go back now because that's my argument. It only came in because everyone complained so much. We talked about kind of the media noise, but errors by referees and or linesmen were kind of covered to so big an extent after every weekend that it kind of forced the introduction of it. And I think what it showed up was that football is quite a sort of nuanced game. And a lot of the laws of this, it's not black or white, it's like interpretation. And also showed that most fans and most pundits don't actually know a lot of the laws. You know, there's all these debates we've had in the last five, six years about, you know, the minutiae of this and that. And I think to Jack's point, I do think it does, it is boring, it does make the sport worse, but I just don't see a scenario where we can't not have it. I think we've got to get to a point where it is at least technologically better. I mean, the semi automated, you know, is a bit, is a bit better than what it was before. I think you just kind of need to make those incremental changes and hopefully, you know, it does become a little bit more. Less intrusive.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

I thought you had more.

[Kaley Cuoco]

I've got time.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

I don't think we've got time.

[Kaley Cuoco]

I could talk about this for hours, but I'm not sure that's what people tune in for.

[Ayo Akinwolere]

You'd be surprised, Jack. There's going to be a lot of people that have got time for var chat. But I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for joining us, Duncan, Jack, and also thank you guys for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.

[Kaley Cuoco]

The Athletic FC Podcast Network.