Sam Lee (2:38)

You can have both sides of the fence, can't you? Because City undoubtedly, it's undoubtedly messed up, but obviously the the dynamics of the dropping points means City fans can be a bit happier with the situation than it looked in the 95th minute. And Arsenal fans not quite as happy with the situation as they would have been in the 95th minute. So City have undoubtedly slipped up, but I've always said, I've said all season, I basically just disagree with the idea that you can call a title race anytime before it's actually done. And City have kept slipping up this season. That's been a big feature of their season, but so have Arsenal. So you can have both sides of the fence. It is possible that City still win it, but I'm absolutely not shying away from the fact that they messed up massively on Monday night and obviously it's huge advantage to Arsenal. But like I say, every time City have slipped up, Arsenal have done it as well. So, I don't know, I guess we'll see if City can beat Brentford, we'll see if West Ham can come up with the goods. But yeah, Arsenal would have been praying for that kind of result, even if the way that Doku kind of saved it means that it's something to cling to for City, but not much.

Ayo Akimolere (3:51)

Yeah. Based on the way this season's gone. Nick Miller's piece is really interesting, Jack. He says there's a difference between this title race and those in recent seasons. This one is perfect for the neutral, which I kind of understand, in that it's between two brilliant and closely matched teams who nonetheless have just enough flaws. It's keeping us gripped, isn't it? Even though Arsenal are five points ahead, City still still do have that game in hand.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (4:17)

Yeah. So I think that when we had the title races between City and Jurgen Klopp's Liverpool, Most particularly in 1819 and then again in 21, 22, in both those times, the teams got really high 90 point finishes and they kind of. It felt like they were winning every single game every week. And anybody who, anybody who dropped points would automatically lose out. Whereas now the winning points total will probably be what, in the low 80s, I think, which is not historically abnormal. There have been plenty of seasons in history where people have won the League with a tally in the 80s rather than the 90s. But it does mean that we have to accept that these are not teams who are going to win every single game week in, week out. And I think that does add a little bit of drama. I wasn't that surprised that City dropped points. I thought that. I mean, I know people after City beat Arsenal, lots of people got very excited and said, well, of course City are going to win the League now. I didn't agree with that. I thought that they would. I thought they would drop points again. So I wasn't shocked by last night's result. Their league form has not been perfect and I still would. I mean, look, I suspect Arsenal are probably going to do it, but I wouldn't be super surprised if they drop points either. You know, they are not a flawless team either. So, yeah, I think last night's game, as exciting as it was, was in keeping with this slightly different looking title race we've had this season.

Ayo Akimolere (5:33)

Is it over, Jay, for Man City?

Jay Harris (5:36)

Of course it's not over. I think what's very interesting is that particularly against Fulham on Saturday, Arsenal produced one of their best performances of the season when obviously the pressure was not off point. But there'd been a real, certainly in the friends I know who are Arsenal fans and, you know, colleagues like people like Art Daroche, there'd been a real shift in their mentality and mindset and they were almost relieved that April was over. Almost relieved in a sense that the onus was now or the expectation was now that City were going to go on and win their remaining games and that Arsenal just had to do whatever they could do. And, and I think the way Arteta celebrated Arsenal's goals against Fulham, you could sort of sense that that real urgency, but not that they were underdogs, but the narrative had shifted slightly. Now the expectation and pressure is going to go right back on them and I do wonder if the nerves will return to the Emirates Stadium and that will be impacting their performances a little bit. It's definitely not over. Both teams, as Jack and Sam have already mentioned, have slipped up too many times this season for it to be over. But I do think in the last two weeks that's. That's played to Arsenal's advantage, that the scenes at full time of the Etihad with Man City strutting around, Harland, you know, sort of celebrating in the camera, people thinking that it was done and dusted there. Arsenal sort of going, well, we're just going to have to do whatever we can. Now it's flipped. Is it going to revert back to the pretty poor performances that we saw in April from Arsenal?

Ayo Akimolere (7:04)

Yeah, well, I'd say if you were neutral, you're licking your lips at this moment in time because it's just as exciting at the top of the table as it is at the bottom of the table. Sam, Interesting stat here, actually, because in the space of 13 minutes, City went from 1 nil up to 3, 1 down. They dropped the joint most points from winning positions in the Premier League since the turn of the year. That's 12 points level with spurs and Newcastle. Now it's not what we expect from from Manchester City, especially in a title run in. But considering where they were after that Arsenal match where you thought it was game on, is this a little worrying?

Sam Lee (7:37)

It's kind of where they're at. Most of those points would have been dropped at the start of the year. I think they won it up against Brighton and it went one all. They one nil up against Chelsea and it went one all. They were two nil up at spurs, it went two two. They had a big problem at the start of the year when they would just drop off in second half massively. And the reason I'm kind of hesitating on is it a problem is because they'd fixed that. That hasn't been an issue for a while and in fact they've been playing really well now. You wouldn't even think about that second half drop off at all.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (8:07)

Sorry, Sam. What about didn't happen in the Forest and West Ham games as well in March. They were leading in both those games and ended up drawing.

Sam Lee (8:13)

Yeah, exactly. So like it's something that. It is something that they've kind of phased out. But where I was going with this is like this is where they are as a team. You know, when, you know, whatever the title comes down to whoever wins it by how many points. There'll always be games like the Everton won last night. Oh, drop points there. But there's so many that City could look at. But then you think if there's that many games you could pinpoint. It's not just a case of oh, we were unlucky here or we should have been better there. This is just where they are as a team. They're flawed like Nick says. Both teams are flawed like Jack says it's going to be a low points tally for the champion because both teams have got issues and cities are that it's just a new team coming together. And yeah, for like two months at the start of the year, they kept dropping points in silly positions when they were leading. But then. Yeah, the other thing is, and I realized this, I wrote an article for when they went top of the league against Burnley, kind of broken down their season in different stages and a kind of unintended, kind of consequence of each little chapter of the season was that things were looking all right and then they decided to result out of nowhere. Where's that happened? So the Forest one that Jack just mentioned there when things were looking all right. And then the West Ham one after that, you think, and then it comes back again. So I was kind of thinking once they'd gone top against Burnley is the moral of the story here. Every time things start to look alright, they do throw in a result like that. But the reason I don't think it's a major problem is it's a new team. Guardiola's kind of shelled them all together and I think at this point, you know, a month ago, we wouldn't have really been expecting the title race at all. This has kind of been a bonus. And I'm not saying City, if they don't win the league, they can be happy about it because once they're in the position, they should be expected to make a real go of it. But if they're dropping points in situations like this, it's not new. But also, I don't think you need to be having any inquests about it because the reasons are obvious. It's a new team, young players, and I think they've been improving all the way through the season. But obviously these kind of moments are not beyond them, as we saw against Real Madrid, you know, Madrid finishing up halftime in Madrid. It's not a shock that, that this can happen.

Jay Harris (10:19)

I just double checked this because I wanted to be certain. But City's longest winning run of the season in the Premier League is six games and Arsenal's is five. When we're talking about the high points totals that Liverpool and Man City have put up in the last couple of years, that's unheard of. Both of those teams were comfortably getting into to double digits. So I think that just underlines the lack of, don't want to say consistency because to even win five and six games in a row is difficult. Right. But neither of those teams has really sort of kicked on and put on a really punishing, intimidating winning run, which we've seen other title winning teams do in the last decade or so.

Ayo Akimolere (10:53)

Why do you think it is? Is it just the players? Is it Guardiola himself? I mean, we'll be digging away, but like there are a lot of permutations here.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (11:00)

Well, it's a very different City team this season. Yeah, Bernardo Silva is obviously still there, but not really a lot of experience I think, left in that team. You know, lots of, lots of players are new. Kusanov, Gahi O'Reilly, Doku is still fairly new. Semenyo obviously, Shaqi as good as he is. But also this and Donna Rimmer's new. The style of plays change. Like City just don't dominate possession in the way they used to. They don't. I think they look less like a City team now than they did in the past. They're much more individualistic. They're probably more exciting to watch.

Ayo Akimolere (11:33)

Would you also say that's because other teams around them have sort of changed the way they play as well? Perhaps Guardiola can't keep doing what he's been doing.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (11:39)

Yeah, I think Pep has realized it has been. He. He couldn't necessarily sustain the type of football that he used to play with this group of players. I think he knows football's changing and he wants to get in front of that. Also, he doesn't have. He doesn't. He literally doesn't have the players who can play that side of play. Like, he doesn't have midfielders who can dominate the ball in quite the same way. Like City's best players are all final third players, really. So it's a very different team with a different style. I mean, the weird thing about City is City's flaws are kind of the inverse of Arsenal's. Right. Tons of final third quality, but not a lot of control. Arsenal play with, I think probably too much control at times. And if the one problem that Arsenal have is the lack of quality in the final third. So in that sense they're almost like mirror images of each other. But I think because City's style has changed so much, they can't win games like they used to. The number of games that City always used to win, like 3, 4, 5, nil. And then they don't do any running after 50, 60 minutes. And now like every game is a battle. It's very back and forth. They have to put a huge amount of work in every time and they can't. And they can't just keep the opposition at arm's length the way they used to, I think that explains more than anything why they are as vulnerable, as vulnerable as they showed again last night. They are.

Ayo Akimolere (12:47)

Okay, Sam, before you go, a bit of positive news. Our colleague David Ornstein has exclusively reported on the Athletic that Phil Foden has reached an agreement in principle with City over a long term contract. It's an interesting one because he hasn't had the best season, but a show of faith from Manchester City that he has a future there.

Sam Lee (13:06)

It really is interesting because he hasn't had the best season and last season was obviously worse. It looked like he was coming through that at the end of 2025, but he's tailed off he played in the cup semi final the other week when Guardiola made loads of changes, didn't do well, he got taken off and Stones comes over to him on his way off, like, chin up kind of thing, and you think, what's going on?

Ayo Akimolere (13:27)

Have we found out what is going on with Foden? I mean, I don't know personally, but there must be other things.

Sam Lee (13:32)

Speaking sensitively, you know, I think he said around this time last year when he kind of took time away from the England squad at the end of the season, I think he talked off the pitch battles, mental health, that kind of thing. But I think, like, physical illnesses as well. And I think. I don't know, whenever you ask the question, it's just kind of. Nobody really puts their finger on it, but it's just like in a bit of a chaotic environment, maybe, you know, footballers generally take themselves away from things, just focus on the game and everything's kind of calm around them. You always hear that. It's the kind of boring stuff you hear when you hear about, like, what makes Haaland so good, or, you know, Roger, they just focus off. Foden can't really do that. He's kind of got a chaotic environment as well as the kind of mental issues, physical issues. There's a lot. But then that's why it's interesting, because he's got one year left on his contract after this until it's signed, and you just think, does City kind of hitch their wagon to Foden? Do you take the gamble? Because they can't know that he's going to get back to his best, but, like, do you put their faith in him? Basically, I think he's just got special status, hasn't he? And that's understandable. I don't think there's many other players at many other clubs where you'd say, oh, yeah, here's a new contract for you with, I believe, a pay rise on the evidence of the last two years. Like, at the very least, you think, okay, well, let's just see how next season goes and then we can decide from there. But understandably, I think he does have special status because of current through the academy, because of how big he's been and what he means to the club. I think. I don't know if it's a sentimental decision or an emotional decision, but, yeah, it is an interesting case because he's obviously got a long way to go to get back to being the player that he was and starting to think about the World cup soon. He Might not be in that England squad and you'd say, fair enough if he isn't. So, yeah, that's his situation on the pitch. But obviously City, long term, they're happy to invest in him, so we'll see how it develops.

Jay Harris (15:19)

Can I just ask Sam a question, because I'm genuinely intrigued by this. So I was just looking up the amount of goals Doku scored this season, because in my head, this was his best ever goal scoring season, which it is in the league. But he still only scored four goals in 26 appearances. Right. Whereas Foden has far more goals. To your average casual football fan, who maybe not watching City week in, week out, you'd look at those numbers and say, oh, Foden's having a reasonably good season, so what is it about the lack of influence that he's having on games these days, which is a cause for concern, I guess, and has even led to a situation where some people are unsure of whether he should get a contract extension or not?

Sam Lee (16:00)

Well, I mean, if you look at the goals that he has scored in terms of them being better than Doku, they just simply came at a time when he was contributing really well and playing really well. And it looked like he kind of emerged from last season's problems, but he's not been playing well. It's not just like he's still scoring goals. Whenever he comes in now, it's like he comes in and there's not much of a contribution at all. Did Thomas Tuchel say after the England friendlies during the last international break, he looked really good in training, but he just couldn't replicate that on the pitch? That's how it is. He looks like he's got no confidence whatsoever, but, I mean, even at the best of times, he's not great off the ball. It's not like he's lazy, it's just not his first thought. And he's not the strongest. And you guys were talking there about the style of Guardiola's team change in line with the Premier League. It's a lot more physical and about duels and stuff and everything's man to man. So we've seen, for example, Rico Lewis is completely out of the picture now because he normally plays in the pockets and the pockets aren't really there. And also you need to be big, strong and quick. Jack talking about not having players to keep possession. Absolutely right. They bought Semenyo Marmouche last January. They've bought Cherky. Reinders is like a pep player in inverted commas, but off the ball, he's not there. Ait Nori off the ball is not really there. Cherky, he's had to improve massively in that these are all new types of players. And if you look at Ait Nori, you look at Reinders, they're not in the team at this point. Guardiola's settled on a team that he can trust and it's the ones who are big, strong, dynamic, they put their foot in, they're switched on defensively and obviously make contributions with the ball. But Foden's not really those things. And after that cup semi final, Guardiola talked about it being man to man and therefore harder for Foden. And you think, well, that's just a new dynamic of the Premier League. Everyone's going man to man, everyone's big, strong and physical. And if that's a problem for Foden, then that's not just a problem against the team from the championship in the FA cup semi final, it's a problem for most of the games. So there's that side of it is suitability to how things are, but his confidence is shot to pieces as well. So, yeah, he scored goals earlier on in the season and he was looking good, but everything's just kind of tailed off a bit. And also you'd have to say not playing regularly, it doesn't help any of them. So Mahmouche barely plays, he comes on and he's rusty. Nico Gonzalez barely plays, he comes on and he's rusty. You know Guardiola, he's really leaning to the players that he trusts and that's all well and good, but then it comes to a situation that last night and he needs to make changes. Against Everton, he brings on Kovacic, who hasn't played in a year because he's been injured, and he brings on Foden, who have all these problems we just discussed. So that's not going to help him either. But there's just so many things that Foden kind of needs to have go well for him at the moment. But yeah, that's kind of why it's his own lack of confidence. It's the off the pitch issues, it's things in his head, things with his body and the new kind of Premier League matchup and how Guardiola wants to play it.

Ayo Akimolere (18:50)

Sam, look forward to talking to you before the 24th of May, which would be the last games of the season. Manchester City vs Villa and Arsenal are away to Crystal palace as well. See you soon.

Sam Lee (19:01)

That'll be fun. Cheers guys.

Host/Announcer (19:04)

This is the Athletic FC Podcast with IO Accumulere. This episode of the Athletic FC Podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. May is mental Health Awareness Month and it's a reminder that whatever you're going through, you don't have to go through it alone. Because life is a journey. Some days you feel good, but others you can feel overwhelmed. Whatever's keeping you up at night, it's easy to feel like you have to figure it out all on your own. But the truth is, no one has all the answers and no journey should be made by yourself. Having someone with you to listen, to understand and to support you can make all the difference. So this May why not check in with yourself and understand where you are right now and acknowledge that if you're feeling stuck, anxious or unsure, it's okay to not be okay. BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy providers, serving over 6 million people globally. Just fill in a short questionnaire and they'll pair you up with a therapist based on your preferences, needs and goals. And if you aren't happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time. Safe in the knowledge that BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the us you don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have someone with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com fcpodcast that's better. H E L p.com fcpodcast. This is an advert for Mint Mobile. Now if you're anything like me, you'll like keeping your money right where you can see it. Unfortunately, traditional big wireless carriers also seem to like keeping your money. So if you're overpaying for wireless and fed up with sky high wireless bills, bogus fees and free perks that actually cost more in the long run, it's time you switched to Mint Mobile. Mint Mobile is here to rescue you with premium wireless plans starting at just 15 bucks a month. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talking text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can bring your own phone and number with you, activate an ESIM in minutes and you'll start saving immediately. No long term contracts, no hassle. What's not to love? I switched at the start of the year and I'm saving money every month and I can spend that on my kids and I get really fantastic all round wireless service on top. So if you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you shop plans@mintmobile.com Athletic FC that's mintmobile.com AthleticFC upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 per month new customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Lately I've been more intentional about what I wear day to day. Leaning into pieces that feel easy, comfortable and still put together just makes getting dressed simpler. And Quince has been my go to. The fabrics feel elevated, the fits are clean and everything just works without needing to overthink it. Quince has all the wardrobe staples for spring. Think 100% European linen shorts and shirts from $34 lightweight, breathable and comfortable but still look put together and clean. 100% Pima cotton tees with a softness that has to be felt. Their pants also hit that same balance. Relaxed and comfortable but still polished enough to wear pretty much anytime. And everything is priced 50 to 80% less than you'd find at similar brands. Right now I am loving The Comfort Stretch Traveler 5 Pocket Pant in Dark charcoal. It's laid back and refined and good for the working day and the post work cocktail. And at just £49.90 and available in 10 different colors, I might just treat myself to another pair because I'm worth it. So refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to Quince.com AthleticFC for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Athletic FC for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com Athletic FC.

Ayo Akimolere (23:02)

So as we mentioned earlier Jay, a lot still depends on whether Arsenal can hold then their remaining fixtures are Atletico Madrid at home, West Ham away which is now looking like a really fascinating fixture. Burnley at home and I mentioned to Sam Crystal palace away Jay look that three zero will over Fulham you said probably the best performance of the season so far that West Ham now away another London club who are fighting for survival now looks super super vital.

Jay Harris (23:31)

Yeah I was watching the post match reaction. I actually didn't watch the the full game. I was watching Scarface with my girlfriend.

Ayo Akimolere (23:37)

You know to be fair, all time classic. Yeah Al Pacino.

Jay Harris (23:40)

I cover spurs so you know spurs were not playing but I did tune in for a little bit of post match analysis and Thierry Henry said something quite interesting and he said you know lots of people are going to think West Ham in the Bottom three, Arsenal

Jack Pitt-Brooke (23:52)

should roll them over.

Jay Harris (23:53)

But Henry said that he was nervous before the game about Man City playing Everton and about Arsenal playing West Ham. And I think that's the trap that Arsenal fans shouldn't fall into thinking we're going to rock up, we're going to roll them over. Especially because a Brentford team who'd been struggling for form have beaten West Ham. The thing which really stood out for me from the weekend was the return of Saka obviously has had a massive impact and Arsenal have been crying out for that. We shouldn't forget that for a large portions of the season that Arsenal have been without their captain Martin Odegaard and their vice captain Bukayo Saka, and if you did the same to City, it would impact their performance levels. Joker has obviously had a good game, but the. The miles Luis Skelly, I don't want to call it an experiment because that's where he played when he was coming through Arsenal's academy. So for him to finally get his first midfield start, I think probably raises questions about how Arteta's rotated the midfield options this season because he's barely, barely played Norgaard or Lewis. Skelly is an alternative to, to Zubamendi and Rice and I think whether he has the. The conviction to start Luis Kelly there. Again, assuming that Zubamendi and Rice are a bit knackered from the game against Atletico Madrid will be. Will be really interesting. But Arsenal definitely played with a much better inventiveness going forward, and that happens when you've got a player like Luis Skelly who's very good at driving forward with the ball. We've seen him do it at left back, where you've got Saka just being a little bit more efficient in his actions out on the right wing compared to Noni Madueke. So I think Arsenal should take comfort and confidence from the fact that for the first time in probably six weeks, they've won a game by more than a single goal margin and they enjoyed themselves in the process. They continue playing like that, they should be fine. But I just think there have been so many times this season where they've allowed the pressure of the situation to get in their heads and impact them mentally and then impact them physically on the pitch. And it wouldn't surprise me if the exact same happens that at the London Stadium this weekend.

Ayo Akimolere (25:49)

Yeah, it's an interesting one because when you talk about teams mirroring each other, Sam says Guardiola's leaning on his lieutenant. Arteta for the first time hasn't lent on his lieutenants to put my Louis Kelly in that position, which hasn't done all season, trying to do something different, you know, trying to lean on plays. He has got that he probably hasn't lent on all through the season. Now, there's a big game against Atletico Madrid on Tuesday night tonight, and it's 1:1. This would be the first time, if Arsenal win this, that they make a Champions league final in 20 years. The momentum of winning this, do you think that's the kind of momentum that can catapult a team?

Jack Pitt-Brooke (26:25)

I think so, yeah. I mean, I think that their chances. I think their chances of beating West Ham at the weekend are. Would be improved if they get through tonight. I think if they went out tonight, I just. Just wonder if there'd be a sense of, you know, frustration, but also like, oh, we've got some, you know, kind of extra pressure on the league. Whereas obviously what you like. The challenge for being a good team at this time of season is just to keep all the plates spinning as long as you can, right? And if you go out in the Champions League tonight, then all of a sudden you're showing up, you're showing up at the London Stadium needing to win, which is a sort of slightly different feel. Like what you want to do is not need to win, but just to kind of keep. Keep rolling on for as long as you can in as many competitions until the end. But, yeah, it certainly felt like even just watching the game the weekend on tv, like there was a bit of a mood shift. Like, it felt like. I mean, so many Arsenal games that I've watched this season have looked like really hard work for all the players and all the fans, and they've put so much effort into it, but it's just bit painful at times. Whereas watching them in that game, like, everybody, all the players look really relaxed, the fans obviously relaxed. I think this was obviously both the cause and a consequence of being 3 nil up at half time. And it just looked. It didn't really look like this season's Arsenal. Like, it looked like a slightly more kind of freed up team who was having a bit more fun. It didn't look dissimilar from teams who often chase the title at this time of the season, right, where everything clicks and everyone's playing, playing well, and it just all flows very naturally. But seeing them enjoy themselves against Fulham, it did make me think that this is maybe something we haven't quite seen enough of from Arsenal this season.

Ayo Akimolere (27:58)

Talk about first potential first Champions league funnel in 20 years. Talk about lifting the League for the first time in over 20 years. I mean, if this goes the right way, at least this team could be sitting on history.

Jay Harris (28:10)

Yeah, massively. And you know what Jack said about if Arsenal lost and got eliminated by Atletico, the pressure would be really on. Completely agree with that. I also think it works the other way because if they win, this fan base are going to be saying, we are on the cusp of doing, winning the Champions League for the first time in our history, winning the title for the first time in 22 years. There's going to be that extra sense of, oh, you, you know, you've got three games of the season, three, four games of the season left. You really can't muck it up from here. And if you do, the. The mocking is going to be on another level. Arsenal need to remember that they will go down as, as heroes if they, if they win the title or the Champions League. This generation will be. Or this squad will be remembered for. For generations. They. They broke the hoodoo, but obviously that comes with. That's probably quite scary for a lot of those players as well. And as I mentioned, you know, I think Arteta suggested that Odegaard will be fit for the game against Atletico Madrid, but he's been in and out of the team for weeks. I think Havertz is also possibly available, but again, has been in and out of the team for weeks. So Arsenal know that they're in a really difficult, challenging period of the season where the pressure's at his highest. All eyes are on them, but they don't know whether they're going to be able to rely upon some key players who've got them to this point. You know, Zurian Timber's going to miss the game and he might, you know, he might end up missing the running because he's been out for quite a while now. It's intense. It's going to be immense. But if they do it, of course they'll go down in. In history. And we've pointed out on this pod so many times before that there are so many in a team's development. There are so many moments where there's been a crucial cup win, which has then catapulted that squad on to even more success in the years down the line. And I think if Arsenal did get over the line this year, then you'd sort of expect them to continue to kick on over the next two, three, four years and maybe win even more under Arteta because they've finally got that second again. Eleo monkey off their backs. But the same is true the other way. Whereas if they did end the season empty handed without any trophies, I'm sure the fan base would be saying, well, maybe Arteta's taken us as long as he can go, but that is the strange world we live in in football where there are two such extremes. But either of those outcomes are a distinct possibility.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (30:23)

In that sense. It reminds me a little bit of Liverpool in 2018, 19 where, you know, I think Liverpool went into that season under quite a lot of pressure. They'd obviously lost a 2018 Champions League final to Real Madrid. And Liverpool were sensationally good that season. They lost one league game all season. If you study the history of the Premier League, that is a statistically insane thing to happen, right? To come second in the league with 97 points. It's one of the highest points tallies that anyone's racked up in the league. And that meant there was even more pressure on them winning the Champions League. But they did it. They beat Tottenham in the final 2, 0. And they, I think in doing that, it kind of, that was then the springboard for Liverpool being phenomenal in the Premier League the following season, which they won in 1920. And so, but they were under so much pressure going in the back end of that season because they hadn't, you know, Klopp had been there for a while at this point. They were still waiting for their first big trophy and you know, under slightly different circumstances, they could easily won the Premier League and Champions League that season. They ended up only with the Champions League. But then even, even it's not even the case that just winning that one big one makes it much easier that you'll win things down the line. Like in 2122, Liverpool were in the hunt for an unprecedented quadruple. They won the League cup, they won the FA cup again. They were unbelievably good in the league again. They came, finished what, one point behind Manchester City in the Premier League and they lost the Champions League final to Real Madrid and Paris. So that was a phenomenally good team as well. But there's no like, even a team that good who's kind of trying to balance all those different things has kind of. You can be phenomenally good and still just miss out at the end. Like the margins are so fine and I wonder, we just don't know which, what way it's going to fall at the moment with Arsenal. But it's, I think it's like equal. It's roughly equally plausible they will end up with no trophies or that they'll end up with the two biggest ones.

Host/Announcer (32:06)

Or just one?

Jack Pitt-Brooke (32:07)

Yeah, or just one.

Ayo Akimolere (32:09)

It's still wide open.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (32:10)

And the margins that are going to define that, I mean, I think that they're now like significantly more than 50% likelihood of winning the Premier League. But in the Champions League, I say the I don't know what their odds are at the moment. I'd say probably one in four, maybe. Like the margins are still really, really fine and we just don't know which way it's going to break at the moment.

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Host/Announcer (35:36)

You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimolere.

Ayo Akimolere (35:41)

Gents, let's move on to some of the other action from Monday. Despite making eight changes in their starting eleven, Nottingham Forest beat Chelsea 31 at Stamford Bridge. They're now six points from safety with three still yet to play. I mean what a remarkable turnaround it's been for Forest.

Jay Harris (35:57)

Can I say something quickly? I thought you said we were getting the day off from talking about spurs today.

Ayo Akimolere (36:02)

I'm going to weave it in slightly. I'm weaving it. If I save it till the end, it means you can't leave. But I mean Jack, it's pretty interesting, isn't it, because Forest looked in danger at one point. Then Pereira takes over and it's a different team.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (36:14)

Yeah, and they're in a great example of trying to balance trying to stay in the Premier League and trying to progress in Europe at the same time. You know, particularly they've had such a bizarre season right with the four managers and it's so hard to to juggle competing things. We don't know what's going to happen with them second leg against Aston Villa on Thursday, but it is looking like they're going to stay in the Premier League and that is in itself a big success. Like, you know, I don't think that's ultimately why Pereira got the job in the first place replacing Sean Dyche. It was to keep them in the Premier League and I think he's done that and they could maybe get to a European final as well. So, yeah, it just shows you what a good job he's done because it's. I think that's really hard job there. Quite a lot of pressure, big squad, lots of signings, not always happy, possible to keep everyone happy. But he's. He's seemingly like charted a course that's really worked for them at the moment.

Ayo Akimolere (37:03)

Yeah. Chelsea really worrying run of results at the moment. Really worrying from their perspective and obviously. No, no head coach. All right, Jay, I'm going to talk about it. Spurs. It's the pendulum swung between spurs and West Ham. West Ham, I thought through momentum looked a bit more comfortable now based on their last resort. Spurs unlikely victory at Aston Villa. I mean, this is hope, right?

Jay Harris (37:28)

So my stepdad is a West Ham fan and I asked him about the results at the weekend and he said he just wanted to give Spurs a little bit of false hope, which sounded like someone desperately clinging on and trying deny. To deny what happened. I just want to talk about spurs through the prism of Nottingham Forest really quickly because, you know, me and Jack have covered spurs all season and one thing which really stands out, which is defined their season, is the timing of getting rid of Thomas Frank. They waited until February to do it and then hired the wrong person in Igor Tudor. We know that Forest have been through multiple managers this season, but they actually got rid of DCH in early February. I thought it was a little bit later than that, but you've given Pereira enough time to have a decent run at avoiding relegation. Because let's be serious, if spurs avoid relegation and stay up, what does Irby's done in a really short space of time? Remarkable is really, really good because the odds were were stacked against him and look, it's not happened yet. There's still a considerable way to go. But to have won two games back to back, having not won in four and a half months with no Xavi Simons, with no Dominic Solanke is remarkable. We've spoken about it a lot and it does really seem that one of the biggest things that De Zerbi's changed since he's joined spurs is just the mentality of the players. And, and Tudor had spoken about it and I don't know if you remember, he'd famously said in a press conference that he has an idea of who's on the boat and who's not on the boat and he's going to leave people behind. Whereas the Zerby's been a little bit more, you know, we've got a fight, ignore the outside noise. People feel sorry for us because Xavi's injured, Solanke's injured. Nah, I'm not going to go down that road. We've got enough quality within the squad to kick on. And I think for. For him to get a tune out of Conor Gallagher, who'd had a pretty miserable time in North London so far. I'm not saying de Zerbi deserves all of the credit. You know, some of the players have really stepped up Benton Kurz since he came back from injury. But we always knew that one win had the potential to. To change the narrative for Spurs. It's just that the win against Wolves because they lost Xavi Simons and Dominic Solanke, that was. This victory does not feel as sweet as we. We were promised it would be. But the fact that they then backed that up with a performance against Aston Villa, it's now back in their own hands. And it will be very interesting to see what happens against Leeds, because as much as I'm praising them and I promise I'm going to finish now, spurs last two games have come away. Wins have come away from home. In fact, their last three wins in the Premier League going back to Crystal palace in December have been away from home. Leeds on Monday is at home. So can they actually continue this positive trajectory at home? Well, recent history suggests it's going to be difficult to do. So if they win on Monday, then I think we can say they've turned a huge corner.

Ayo Akimolere (40:04)

Yeah, and Leeds on really good form at the moment as well. Let's face it. I mean, deserve me if he does get them out of jail. I mean, what a massive turnaround considering you're probably not training with them that often, considering you're still trying to get your message across to this team. And actually, I think that was what was impressive about the Villa win, was that two top, top players that they had. I don't know if they've lost. Loads of top players through the season weren't present there, but the intention was there at least.

Jack Pitt-Brooke (40:28)

Yeah, I think it was their best performance this season. And it was really characterized by an incredible amount of conviction and commitment from the spurs players to what the managers asked him to do. What was most interesting to me is for so much this season, it looks like spurs players have been unmotivated like Their heads have gone a bit, but really they were kind of back to their true selves. The true selves that we haven't seen really since the very start of the Thomas Frank era, if not before. It was a reminder that Van de Fen's a top player, Pot Rou's a top player. Polynha, Benton, Kerr, Gallagher, all these. Even Colin Muwane is a great example. He arrived at suppose with a big reputation, done very little since he arrived, and then all of a sudden watching him play like that on Sunday night, you remember, oh yeah, this is the guy who played for Juventus and played for PSG and plays for France, who got the most incredible attacking riches up front. Deschamps still finds a place for Colin Muani because he's a really good player and we've finally seen that for Tottenham. So what De Zerbi's done, I think more than anything else is kind of clean out that mental block that spurs had in their heads, get the players unified, motivated, focused, together. And all of a sudden, for the first time in a long time, they look like a good team again.

Ayo Akimolere (41:37)

Yeah, for sure. Well, will the pendulum swing again? Spurs are home to Leeds, West Ham at home to Arsenal. We'll leave it there, gents. Jack, Jay and also Sam for joining us early. Appreciate your time and also thank you guys for joining us too. We'll catch you soon.

Host/Announcer (41:52)

You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavreau and Jay Beale with editing by Paul Iliff and Nick Thompson. The executive producer is Ady Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows. Search for the Athletic wherever you get your podcasts. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.

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