IO Akimolere (3:32)

Look at Sam, he's got the boxing gloves on, he's ready for a fight.

Sam Lee (3:35)

I've got the boxing hoodie on actually. Maybe it's manifesting.

IO Akimolere (3:38)

Yeah, well, unfortunately si a team that haven't got the boxing gloves on after that result are Liverpool unfortunately. I mean look, City have got their problems, Arsenal have got their problems. Lots of teams got their problems this season. But I just wonder if that game yet again just compounded where Liverpool's frailties are. Brilliant individual performances. Here we look at Sobitzlei again but as a team cohesively still struggling to find that momentum.

Simon Hughes (4:02)

Yeah, it was one of Frank Bruno's late performances from Liverpool. I'm afraid there's several problems with the performance I felt starting with the first half. I mean Liverpool's victories over Man City over the last 10 years, particularly when Pep Guardiola has been. The manager had been based around fast starts and really making it difficult for City. City came to Anfield in a run of bad form. I think one win and six and Liverpool just, just couldn't get going. I don't know whether that was a decision by the manager or, sorry, the head coach to sort of absorb a bit of pressure and try and, you know, try and hit City on the counter attack. But I mean City should have been at least 2 nil up at halftime. I felt so really poor first half performance. But Liverpool did pick up in the second half and delivered the sort of performance that you'd expect from them in the first half. Problem being, of course he conceded late goals again and that has been in keeping, as you say, IO with the results elsewhere this season. You know that Liverpool haven't been able to keep hold of Leeds. I think they now surrendered at eight points in injury time. I think that's right. You know, for late goals after the 90th minute, which is very unlike Liverpool over the years. And I just think conceding late goals either side of half time, it's just a really bad habit to be in as a team. It says I think a lot about, about sort of where they're at. The defeat wasn't just damaging, but the manner of the defeat was damaging.

IO Akimolere (5:31)

I felt just thinking in terms of coming into this match, who needed the points more? Because you know, Liverpool have got potentially Champions League aspirations currently, what, six points behind Chelsea at the moment in time. Manchester City are still six points behind Arsenal. It could have been nine points. But the reality is these two teams are gunning for two very different things. Where would you say the points should have lay? Or who needed the points the most? Gents from that match. We'll start with you, Sam.

Sam Lee (5:58)

Look, whatever we think of City's chances of winning the title, the margins in the title race are far smaller. So you need more points if you're trying to go for top four or possibly top five this season with an extra place like it was last year, you can lose games and you don't, you don't have to be perfect. The amount of times over the years, you know that famous thing of oh, does anybody actually want this fourth place? When it's like a flawed spurs team or a United team or a Chelsea team or whatever going for it. You don't have to be great to get in the top four, top five. And if you are trying to win the title, like I say, I don't know if they will or not. But if you are trying to win the title, you need to. Like Bernardo said they felt before the game, if they'd lost, that would have been it for the title. Whether he's just saying that for dramatic effect afterwards or whatever, that's how it would have all felt for all of us. Even if they'd drawn and gone to eight points, that's how it would have felt because the margins are much smaller. So therefore I think it's more important for City. But obviously take the point that for Slot's future and just the general feeling around Liverpool this season, it was obviously important for them. But if you're talking about sheer points and importance in the table then surely it's got to be the team with the bigger aspirations.

IO Akimolere (6:59)

Yeah. We'll talk about Slot's future later on Simon. But there's something to that really in terms of Liverpool building some sort of momentum to finish the season in a strong place.

Simon Hughes (7:07)

Well, I think the problem for Liverpool all the way through the season has been consistency. They haven't put a run of form together, a set of results that makes you think they can definitely get into the Champions League places. So what they have to do between now and the end of the season is something that they haven't done really this season at all. And I felt that after beating Newcastle, Manchester City was a big opportunity to put two home wins together back to back something they haven't done too much of this season and earn a bit of trust back with the fans. Because the fans at the moment I think there's an element of fatalism setting in and this does have a role with Liverpool. I understand sometimes Anfield can be quiet and you know somebody was saying earlier about the City fans singing is this the Etihad? Which I thought was quite, quite funny to be. And Anfield can be like that at times. But where they went wrong yesterday was just not getting the fans on side straight away by starting fast early there was concern crept in. So what's happened now is they've actually delivered a decent performance in the second half. Still ended up losing in a bad way. And I think it just erodes that trust that needs to be there for Liverpool to get to the point where they need to be where they can actually at least get somewhere close to expectations this season. So there's a lot of work to be done because obviously they've got a game coming up against Sunderland which you know they were to lose that one, you know they'd be suddenly potentially behind Everton and I think with the same amount of points as Sunderlands which if somebody had suggested that at this stage of the season, at the start of the season, I wouldn't have believed you. So it's not a team that's capable of grinding out results at the moment. That's the reality of it.

IO Akimolere (8:47)

We can't have come this far without talking about how the match ended. The VAR madness, as you've mentioned in your piece, Simon, from a football purist perspective, just let the goal run. And I know they've got a job to do and I know they did the things they need to do by the rules. But what did you make of the madness at the end?

Simon Hughes (9:04)

Is this what entertainment looks like now? Is that how we're defining entertainment? I mean, there's a wider discussion to be had because by the letter of the law, the referee and VAR made the right decisions, which is undeniable. But with the process of various. After it was introduced, the laws and the rules have changed, which means that a right decision looks differently or is received differently now because it is, by the letter of the law, the right decision. You know, 10 years ago, before VAR, if that goal happens in that circumstance, the goal is awarded, both players stay on the pitch. You know, maybe Zobuslight, there's a red card. I can understand why Zobusl has been should, you know, he should be sent off, really.

IO Akimolere (9:49)

And Arnold Slot was adamant that he.

Simon Hughes (9:51)

Should have been sent off and should have been a goal. And I just think that the logic is working backwards for the referees. So rather than judging it on what Harland has done and working backwards, I think in the spirit of football, in terms of logic, we now got a decision where a goal has been disallowed because we want to send a player off for preventing the possibility of that goal being scored, even though he hasn't prevented it because it's been disallowed. I mean, make sense of that. I mean, are we seriously having this discussion about football? It's just pointless, really. So, yeah, I mean, I think it should have really been a 31 victory for man City and you know, a red card for Zoba's like people will say, of course, well, it doesn't really matter. It hasn't affected the results. Well, it will matter next time, you know, when it does affect the results and this situation is still in play. So I think it is worthy of the debate.

IO Akimolere (10:43)

You also think about goal difference there, Sam. Potentially. Who knows what the permutations will be towards the end of the season, right? I mean, taking a goal away in that respect, I mean, that can have ramifications along the way.

Sam Lee (10:54)

Yeah, we were talking about nine points a minute ago. Now it's going to come down to goal defense, no? Yeah, it could do. But there's always one decision in a title race that it can go back to. If it's a close title race, if City don't win the title by one goal or something, then it could be that or it could be the 15 missed chances they've had over the last month. But it would obviously go back to that one. I don't know. I could add stuff on Var, but it's not an opposing viewpoint. I'll just be carrying on what Si said. I really, really dislike it. But again, I get people saying, oh, well, you can't just referee games on vibes. And it's like, well, you can't just referee everything on, oh, it needs to be this and it needs to be that. Like the ball went in the back of the net. If that goal had been given 10 years ago before VAR, I don't think anybody would have complained about it. It just would have been a goal and you'd have gone, okay, fine, well, the ball went in the net. That's all it needs to be. But yeah, the rules need to be changed and you've got to keep the flag down because play can continue and then you put it back on afterwards. And all the handballs, this every year the handball rules massively different because, oh, well, we need to be able to quantify it for Var. Why do we though? Why do we though? And every year is different. And then you get situations where we talk about consistency but they're trying to improve it year on year and they go that or that's not like, you know the Harry Maguire one against Arsenal the other week, we're all going, I was definitely not handball. That's. That's just a rule they've put in. If your hand support in your body, it's not handball. They've decided that that's fine. And I'm not saying that one should or shouldn't have been, but we're just going, oh, well, we know that's not. That's not a VAR handball. What are we talking about? Like, how have we got to this point? And they just keep tweaking it and tweaking it. And then obviously that City won against Newcastle where they checked it for six minutes. If it was offside, then the next night they were like, oh, we'll just let that one go because we don't want another six minute delay. It's like, well, what are you doing? Last night you decided that it was so important you needed to check for six minutes and now you go, oh, well, people didn't like it, so we can't do that again. And I know it's a kind of childish opinion and it's my most man in the pub opinion but just get rid of it globally.

IO Akimolere (12:48)

Sam, I thought you weren't going to go in on it. I thought you were just going to agree with Simon.

Sam Lee (12:52)

I really tried to. That's what I wanted though as well. In it, like me side, Jack Pitt, Brooke, a couple of journalists from other publications. We start, we're starting the movement.

Simon Hughes (13:01)

I. Oh, we've got to get a trend and total abolition, just total abolition, full abolition. It's just football doesn't need a. Football survived as a sport and thrives as a sport for 150 odd years without this. And I understand why, you know, people will say, ah, you know, there's lots of money at stake here if you get a decision wrong. I was like, yeah, well that's the risk that you entail when you enter football, I'm afraid. You know what I mean? And now we're just, we're just talking.

Sam Lee (13:27)

And they're still getting it wrong anyway.

Simon Hughes (13:29)

They're still getting it wrong and then they'll change the rule again and then people will be confused again and 10 years.

IO Akimolere (13:34)

But there are, there are obviously moments where perhaps someone was given a penalty and maybe it wasn't the just thing to do. And I know it's still contentious in many respects, but you can understand, maybe bringing in some sort of check can actually help teams or if anything, alleviate some of the finer mistakes that the human eye might miss.

Simon Hughes (13:54)

Goal line technology, fine, that sort of very quickly. But football is a game of risk and interpretation and maybe I come at it from a slightly different point of view. I've always been actually quite sympathetic of the referees. You know, referees make mistakes like managers do, like players do, like journalists do. Everybody make mistakes. Making mistakes is fine. But now we have a reality where if you're there as a spectator, as a fan, you have to now check yourself when a goal goes in, which is meant to be the most thrilling moment of your afternoon, of your week, of your year, maybe of your life. And now we have to wait until some bozo in his studio 200 miles away has stopped picking his nose and has drawn a ruler across the screen. Sorry, I am turning into the man in the pub. I'll just stop now.

IO Akimolere (14:41)

This is the most man in the pub I've seen. Either of the two of you. I've never had a conversation with the two of you. Usually quite measured. This one has set you absolutely one.

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IO Akimolere (16:04)

Let's talk about something maybe less contentious and a bit more obvious. Let's celebrate football for a moment and talk about Donna Ruma Save Deny Mac Allister an equalizer. I mean, I just had flashbacks of last season's Champions League and his heroics there, Sam. I mean, we talked about Edison leaving and what Manchester City are losing from that potentially. But you're also seeing what they're gaining in. An incredible shot stopper and an incredibly athletic keeper.

Sam Lee (16:31)

Yeah, it's really hard to work out. I was having a debate the other day, all season really. But specifically on Friday, having a coffee with some friends. We were talking about it. I can't work out if he's a net plus or a net positive. Sorry, not positive, one negative. Obviously I can't work it out. I can't work out. I want to say it because you just take away a lot in terms of the Edison stuff and they go, oh, well, no one's Edison. Yeah, but you don't have to be Edison. But you could pass a ball, you could receive a ball under pressure if you'd like. And to be fair, I've got no complaints with him yesterday because he was an option. But for two months when Dias and Gardiol were the starting partnership at sepa, they didn't give him the ball. He's not even option. Talk about all the fine margins and all these little details in the way City play under Guardiola to build up to this massive, kind of bigger than the sum of their parts machine that Wins all these trophies. And I was like, oh, by the way, you haven't got a goalkeeper that's going to use his feet. You haven't got somebody you can pass backwards to. Or if you do, it's probably the ball's not going to find its way to a midfielder or it's going to put somebody under pressure. It makes a massive difference. But the obvious counterbalance to that and the reason they signed him, because you can't sign Donna Rumber and expect him to be amazing in the build up. But the reason they signed him is for exactly that moment yesterday, because they know the Premier League's different. They've signed players, I call them kind of moments players, and they're going to coach them so they're more consistent. But like Turkey and Reinders, they can cover ground, they can beat men because everything's more man to man. Ait Nori as well, he can beat a man. Semeno Savinho, if you go back 18 months, they can all beat players like Kusunov. To be fair, Kuznev's very solid on the ball. Gahi's very good on the ball, we saw yesterday. But they haven't bought like John Stones types, Laporte types like Kuznev. So fast, so aggressive. It gives you that Donna Rummer. He can't. He's not going to help you with the buildup, but he can make these saves. And they know that games are more transitional. Teams are going to have two or three big opportunities in matches. You just need someone to keep the ball out. It's kind of gone full circle. Like Joe Hart must be spinning in his metaphorical grave that he was moved on. But now they're like, actually, well, the buildup isn't that important. We just need somebody to keep the ball out. And that is what he's good at. And the best example of that was yesterday. It's. Everyone can make the same analysis. You don't have to be me, you don't have to be Guardiola, you don't have to be anyone. It could be the man in the pub that we have been on this show. That's what he was signed for, that kind of save. But also the ball came in the box afterwards, in the punch away. That's the double whammy for a goalkeeper, I suppose. Ideally you'd catch it, but it was a great punch, got it away from goal. Those are the big moments and the kind of personality that they wanted to sign him to kind of breathe life into the defence, which they didn't really have last season. So in that sense he ticks the boxes. But I'm still trying to work out if he's better overall or if they, you know, if Trafford's got a better spread of ability, for example, because he could pass a bit better, he's more of an option, he can make good saves. Does he have Donna Roma's aura? No, he doesn't, but I'm still trying to work that out. But obviously Guardiola has already worked it out and Donnarumma is the way to go, but I'm not so sure.

IO Akimolere (19:21)

Can I have a quick word then? So if we're talking about Donnarumma on one side, we have to talk about Alisson on the other side really. And you know, the penalty in itself has probably compounded some of the issues that Liverpool have right now across the board in all different positions. But compared to Donnarumma, he's a keeper that has got Liverpool out of trouble so many times. And look what we saw yesterday.

Simon Hughes (19:41)

Yeah, it's a very unusual performance from Alisson because when available he's been one of the most consistent players for Liverpool. A player that when I watch an opposition striker go through on goal, I think there's a 50, 50 chance he makes a savior. You know, there's a very few goalkeepers who can do that. And Alison is decent with the ball at his feet, but he's, he's what Donnarumma offers as well. You know, his shot stopping is just incredible. One on one, brilliant. But yesterday, you know, some of his kicking was bad. A very rash decision. I mean it was a clear penalty. I don't understand any of the debate around while the ball's gone out, it's like no, he's come out and taken the player out, you know, totally. And it's a penalty. And then, you know, he then probably responsible for what we saw at the end, you know, with him deciding to go up the pitch, I mean, it just looked very desperate. So he had a poor game certainly by his very, very high standards. You know, I do wonder about Alisson and the future really, because you know, his injury record at Liverpool, even last season, you know, people forget Quevin Kelleher played a decent chunk of games last season, has since been sold. Mama Dash, really. They obviously see him as the long term option. I mean, I'm not basing my view on just one performance against Man City where he's had an off game. But I just wonder whether we're coming to towards the end of that cycle with him in the same way, you know, City did with Edison to some extent. You know, he's obviously been a wonderful goalkeeper for City over a longer period of time, but Mamadashvilli is a different type of keeper who is more of a box goalkeeper. So you don't spend 25, 30 million on a goalkeeper if you're not planning to use him. It seems like a bit of a strange use of resources and he must have had some guarantees that he. Not guarantees, but some reassurances that he would have a longer term future at Liverpool. So maybe he's one of the players that this is not said with any sort of understanding of a background situation, but I just think all good things come to an end and it was just a slightly worrying performance from him. I thought he just seemed way not connected to the game in the way he normally is.

IO Akimolere (21:52)

Okay, well, let's keep talking about Liverpool because at full time the athletics Adam Crafton tweeted Liverpool have less points after 25 games of this season than Manchester United had after 25 Premier League games under David Moyes. Four points more than Liverpool had after 25 games in the season. Roy Hudson was sacked. Such an alarming swing from last season. What do you think of that, Simon, in terms of the fact that these are the current holders of the Premier League and this is what we are seeing right now.

Simon Hughes (22:23)

It's been obviously a huge disappointing campaign and my frustration is, you know, Liverpool have won the league twice in the last five or six seasons, but the defense of those titles have been abysmal. There's mitigation against that, you know, stuff we've spoken about on this podcast before 2021, you know, Covid injury crisis, stadiums being short, far from ideal. From a Liverpool perspective then obviously we know what happened last summer, all the changes that have taken place at Liverpool, the injuries that they've had. So on both occasions it's been really disappointing. You know, we've seen over the last 10 years City defend their title well and that's the next step that Liverpool have to make. You know, Liverpool as a club, yes, winning the title is important, but defending that title is just as important as the hardest thing to do. And Liverpool have made a hash of it on both occasions. So I take the points about Hodgson, which is always used as the lowest barometer of any performance and it's, you know what, at times it's been really awkward watching Liverpool this season. What I guess Hodgson didn't have was a reasonably good Champions League campaign. Liverpool have produced some big performances in that tournament beating some really top quality opposition. What I'm interested to see now is you know you go into the knockout stages where even the biggest teams can afford to have an off day in the Champions League in the group stage now they can't in the knockout rounds. And this is, this will be where the measured against Liverpool's very difficult team and club to stop when it gets a bit of momentum in a competition. You know 2005 has proven that Liverpool can win the Champions League despite not being anywhere near not even the best team in Merseyside. So I mean that might happen again. Who knows.

IO Akimolere (24:07)

Yeah. Sorry Liverpool fans. I don't want to compound any more distress but Mark Gahey, we have to talk about him. Sam. A player that Liverpool wanted and it's very public about it. But also a player that some might say was still lucky to be on the field. But that's another conversation I want you to turn into a man in the pub. But realistically did he announced himself as a City player yesterday?

Sam Lee (24:26)

I guess so. I mean I've seen him play well for City before this like the other week but it was against Wolves at home on 3 o' clock on a Saturday. No one's watching in that game when everyone's watching it. The prime time slot. Big game. Yeah, I can see why people are like okay this is a guy that is going to be good for City. I thought he was unbelievable yesterday. Do we really think that's a red card? The Salah pull.

IO Akimolere (24:47)

Don't go into it. They'll go into it. Just leave it. Just leave it.

Sam Lee (24:49)

But it's not a var thing.

IO Akimolere (24:50)

Just leave it. Just leave it.

Sam Lee (24:51)

Alright, fine. But like just like he was great. I spoke to my mate earlier. I was like did you see? And he was like no I haven't. He goes what was. I was gay. He was good because my mate was a centre back. So I thought you know you might enjoy this performance. He said what was he good at? And I actually I was able to type out a fair chunk just on a WhatsApp conversation. Like just there was a one on one with Ekatiki obviously the goal Ekatiki scored against Newcastle last week when he used the outside of his foot as a centre back. He can't be sure where he was going to go. Like what movements he's going to do. Gehe just matched him. Every movement. Managed to get the block in and then it came back off him and off. Ekatiki went out for a goal kick. Perfect for a defender. He was making Blocks getting his foot in. He was great on the ball. The concentration was spot on, aggressive, everything that you'd want from a centre back. And look we talked about the atmosphere of Anfield not being as hostile as it usually is against City but they were booing him. There were times especially in the second half when obviously they did turn it up and the fans came into it more and he wasn't phased by, by any of that really. And yeah he was tremendous. Obviously you know when you sign in Marque, you know you're getting a serious player but the way he settled in and that performance in that environment was super impressive.

Simon Hughes (26:00)

I thought it was a, you know a classic center halves performance under pressure. You know he attacked everything. I thought it was one of the best games I've seen Marque have. He was tested in a different way yesterday and I thought he came through. That being said the, the potential red card now I can understand the conversation around this. I, I feel now you only get a red card if the center forward or the player is running through the center of the pitch. You know it seems to be that if he's coming in at an angle there seems to be more mitigation for the defender. Now it just seems to be the way and maybe that affords more of an opportunity for a cover in center half to get across. But again this is where the conversation gets a bit blurred because Arnold slot touched on it and I did sort of agree with him in the. You know this is Mohamed Salah who has not played well this season and is not performing very well at the moment. But over the course of his career he scored so many goals from that position that there's every chance that that ball ends up in the back of the net in that moment, you know, if the foul isn't made. So I can understand why the Liverpool manager, Liverpool head coach is unhappy with that decision because now it just feels like the referees, they'll just want to send it to Var. Are we going to go back there again?

Sam Lee (27:16)

Yeah.

IO Akimolere (27:16)

But side when you say that that means you. I mean who's going to take all of Mo Salah's stats to say that oh yeah, there's a probability that he's going to score that it makes, I mean come on, you can't do that.

Sam Lee (27:28)

He's not on form either. Like you go oh well he's, he's Liverpool's record goal scorer or will be or whatever. But, but he's not actually playing well. Where'd you balance it? It's.

IO Akimolere (27:35)

Yeah, yeah it's a tough one.

Simon Hughes (27:36)

I accept all that. I accept all that. But with Var there is no room at all for common sense because the evidence is usually there right in front of people and there's no way back from that evidence really. You know what I mean? So I think that in this current climate referees aren't. It's impossible to say apply some common sense because there isn't the margin for it. So yeah, I mean it was a decision that could have gone either way. Again, interpretation, there's no room for interpretation in football now. It's just what it is and what is seen on camera and then that is a decision now. So is that healthy? Healthy for the game? I personally don't think it is, but I'm sure lots of people will disagree.

Sam Lee (28:14)

The pro VAR lot are going to hate this podcast. They hate football. So I don't know why they do.

Simon Hughes (28:18)

Isn't it? Don't come to the athletic for intelligent, intelligent conversation. This is just nice purely instinct.

IO Akimolere (28:25)

Men in the pub. Men in the pub. All right, do you know what I'm hoping he's good for Liverpool fans mental state. But we need to talk about Arnold Slot and I'm not saying anything and we haven't heard anything but questions will be asked about his future at Liverpool. But let's focus on this season right now. Do you think he has what it takes to turn this around, Simon?

Simon Hughes (28:47)

Well, he hasn't proven it yet and the Woodian thing as I say is Liverpool have had promising results this season. When you think look like a really good team now second half for the bulk of the game against Newcastle apart from the maybe the first 25 minutes Liverpool look like a serious team but they just haven't been able to consistently perform to a level that convinces you that they're capable of, you know, going back to back to back, you know, the sort of wins that they achieve last season where sometimes the football wasn't that exciting to watch last season, Liverpool people forget that but they felt the way into games a lot and managed to grind out results and they just don't seem capable of that at the moment. It is true that a lot has gone against them but they can't focus on that. There's just no value in it. They have to find a way to work themselves back into form. I know that's just gobbledygook, isn't it? But I am a bit worried now after the manner of the defeat to City was concerning to me because the different sort of the erratic nature of the performance I was a bit embarrassed by the first half performance really. So passive and flaky. Just paid no respect to, you know, the history of this game and what has happened between the two teams over the last 10 years. At this moment of time, you know, Arnold Schloss has earned the right to work and try and find a solution to the problems that Liverpool have had. But my only concern is, you know, he hasn't had a run like this in his managerial career. You sort of criticize him for success almost. But you know, he is still a relatively young coach who has only been managing sort of top level football for a relatively short period of time where largely everything has gone pretty well. You know, this will be his biggest test ever this season for all the reasons that we discussed before. But at the moment all he can focus on really is trying to get the points on the board that gets Liverpool into the Champions League. That, dare I say it, if he gets into the Champions League, I think that, that, that that saves his job. If they're outside of it, that conversation is really going to crank up and it already is at that point online. I think some of it's been a bit unfair to be honest, because it's almost like what he, what he delivered last season was forgotten and he did play a big role in Liverpool's title win last season. But that goodwill only lasts for so long. You know, this is football. Unfortunately, time moves on very quickly and at the moment, you know, I'm a bit concerned for them.

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Simon Hughes (32:52)

Holland Huge.

Sam Lee (32:57)

And the race is on.

IO Akimolere (33:00)

Well, Holland's winner leaves Manchester City six points behind league leaders Arsenal. Sam. Both him and Bernardo Silva came up trumps for City at a time where they really needed it. You know, these are players that have been there, done it under Pep Guardiola in many respects. Do you think this team. I know you said, you know, gloves off, let's go, but do you think this team has the fight genuinely this season to take on Arsenal all the way to the end of the season?

Sam Lee (33:26)

I didn't say gloves off, let's go. I just said there's like 13 games to go. Let's see what happens. I don't know what's gonna happen.

IO Akimolere (33:31)

You've got the boxing hoodie on. So I'm just. I'm just. Yeah, true. I'm reading it.

Sam Lee (33:35)

I'm reading it. You can't see my hands either. I do have the gloves on, clenched. Do they have what it takes? Because like you mentioned, those two. Guardiola obviously did that press conference last week where he talked about politics and everything, but he was talking so passionately about everything, even the football. He mentioned how for the spurs game last weekend where they, you know, there were great first half and then throw it away second half. So we've got three players who know the process and that'll be the two you mentioned there, Bernardo and Haaland and Rodri. And the rest are new. The rest are new. The rest are young. Like I said earlier, they're completely different players. They're built for winning duels in the sense of taking people on and going past people. They're not built for defending them. That's where they're being let down. That's where in the second half, they just can't stop teams coming through them. But at least yesterday, they were able to dig in and survive it and then hit back. And there you go. That's that personality you're asking me about. And what I said earlier, earlier on, in terms of the belief it gives them, yeah, it can help. But overall, I think it's the style, because they beat Real Madrid in the Bernabeu two months ago, playing in basically the same way it was chaotic and it was end to end and it could have gone either way. And that's what a lot of their games are like. Because as much as there's character there, like even the Arsenal game earlier in the season, when Arsenal equalized right at the end, I was like, well, obviously that's like a massive blow to City to not win, but they showed me something in that game that I wasn't sure they'd had because it was not long after they lost the spurs in Brighton at the start of the season. And you're thinking, these guys, do they have the personality? These new players coming in and they go to Arsenal and they scrap and they fight and they park the bus, which you would never expect. But in terms of like the fight, you think, oh, they've got it. And then Sunderland on New Year's Day, they drew nil. Nil. And you think, oh, that's not good. Dropping points at Sunderland. But they, they controlled the second half and they had the fight and they kept Sunderland under control. And I know it's in them, I know it's in them, but they can't do it consistently. And now we know again yesterday that it is still in them. But are they going to be able to turn that into consistency? Not until they learn to stop teams having 25, 30 minutes of momentum. As soon as Liverpool scored yesterday, they sat back. That's when the momentum shifted. When spurs equalized last week, once they got their second goal, they sat back. That's when the momentum shifted. City can't do that by themselves. And if they want to win stuff properly over two legs in big Champions League games and not even big Premier League games, Premier League games, against a lot of teams, they're harder now because teams are more willing to give it a go. They can all press man to man. So if they're 20 down at halftime against City, they go, oh, well, let's just do the hard pressing that we can do. It's not like Sean Dyche's Burnley from six years ago. That would be three zero down and go, well, we've got nothing else, so we're just going to sit in anyway. Teams can switch it up now and until City can deal with that momentum, they won't be at that next level. But that is obviously what they're working towards. And like I say, with those examples there, we know they've got that personality. It's just the nous on the pitch that needs to match.

IO Akimolere (36:23)

Yeah. So it was really interesting to hear Haaland Actually admit that it was a little nervous, or really nervous, I should say, before taking the penalty. I mean, does this just show where they are? City, it's not clicking. And perhaps, you know what, any slip up right now could really cost us.

Sam Lee (36:39)

For the rest of the season.

Simon Hughes (36:39)

Yeah, it was remarkable to hear Haaland speak that way because you sort of see him as Superman, don't you? That he's. Nothing phases him, but it's a reminder, you know, the confidence affects every player. But still, nevertheless, he is one of the main reasons why I think City could catch Arsenal. Because if he gets into the groove, City will be difficult to stop. And I think it will give the rest of the players behind him, some of the younger players that Sam mentions, a bit more confidence. So there's a lot on him, admittedly, but it's also quite the Guardiola factor. I mean, obviously he has won many leagues. He knows what it takes. Maybe he knows that City aren't quite there yet, but, you know, if it gets to within three points, I just think he's got the experience of being there. Arteta still, you know, we discussed this many times. Well, Arteta still has to prove that, doesn't he? These are just basic points, I think, but I think they. They could prove to be crucial. Certainly City have to use this victory and get on a bit of a run now because I can't see Arsenal losing many games if the gap between the teams is as it is. I mean, six points is only two games, isn't it? But I think that, you know, if it was to shorten and then shorten again, we. We'd really see sort of the metal of this Arsenal team and, you know, suddenly, you know, the players at City who are still getting used to the surroundings, the expectations of the club, you know, the pressure is almost off them a little bit this season. I. I sense, you know, it's a. It's more of a free hit for City this season than it has been in previous years. The pressure is all on Arsenal because they haven't won it for so long. So, yeah, it'd be fascinating to see how. How both managers, players, fans, everybody deals with that pressure.

IO Akimolere (38:22)

Yeah. Another player we need to talk about before we wrap this up, Sam, is Phil Foden. I feel like as a football fan, I'm forever just waiting for him to find his best form again. There's been injury, there's been dips in form, but there have been great moments as well. But at this moment in time, I just don't think Guardiola trusts him as much. I don't know. Maybe it's just me.

Sam Lee (38:40)

No, I think that's fair. He's been really off it this year. I've played in the Manchester Derby. He treated the ball like a bomb. I just wanted to get rid of it as quickly as possible. Not in a good way, not in a keep the ball moving way, in a not taking responsibility way. So it was no surprise that he didn't play yesterday. He didn't look happy when he was taken off against Bodo Glimt, which was a few days after that Manchester Derby. He went straight down the tunnel. He's not played a lot since then to come on here and there. This is the thing with Foden, isn't it? Like, he's got all the talent. He couldn't be at a better place in terms of players to learn from and Guardiola to learn from, combined with his own ability and understanding of the game. I don't know. It's like, do you remember when Rooney was winning everything at United? But there was always just a feeling that there could be more from Rooney. Like, oh, maybe you should win more or score more. And maybe it's because Ronaldo used to play with Ronaldo and Ronaldo had gone onto Madrid and he was just doing insane numbers. There was always a feeling with Rooney that, like, no matter how good he was, there should always be more. And then you look back now and you just think, Rooney's career was fine. Like, Rooney did everything he could have possibly done, really. And it's like, what do we expect from Foden? But at this point, he's 25 years old. Two years ago, when he helped City win that title by just putting a goal in the top corner every time City needed one at a time when De Bruyne was starting to fade, you think, oh, this is what it looks like. This is Foden taking over from De Bruyne and being the guy and starting to win City matches in a way that we just took for granted from De Bruyne. And then last season he's talked about his struggles off the pitch mentally, and we can't overlook that. I'm not saying this has happened again recently, but you look at it and you just think, where's that gone? Because he seemed to be clicking into gear again back end of last year and this year he's kind of fallen off a cliff over the last four or five weeks. And yet overall, it does leave you wondering, is he going to be that guy that's going to be like de Bruyne levels, or is he just going to have like a perfectly good career? And we do with Rooney, where we're always kind of demanding more, but what he is actually doing is fine. But, yeah, I think we all did expect that he would be like the kind of crown jewel at City and maybe therefore for England, but right now that's not happening. And it is fair to question, will it ever.

IO Akimolere (40:39)

Big game in March. Si. Arsenal go head to head against Manchester City in the Carabao cup. And then in April they play each other in the League at the Etihad as well, which is going to be really fascinating. But. But how important do you think it will be psychologically for whoever wins that match in the Carabao Cup Final?

Simon Hughes (40:57)

It depends where the teams are at in the League at that time. I mean, who knows? Arsenal could open up a gap and just accelerate away. It might be a false dawn for City, but I think if both teams approach that game and they're pretty close and they both still feel that the League title is active, then it could be very, you know, it could define everything, really. Guardiola has said in the past, hasn't he, about how important he thinks the League cup is? Because, you know, for some of the reasons Sam mentioned there, if they win a trophy, that will give those players confidence. People sometimes, you know, dismiss the League cup as not being quite as important, but I think a lot of managers now value it for that reason that it gives. It doesn't always do this. Sometimes it can distract players and make them think that they're better than they are and that the season tails off. But it tends to be that a team that's going for a title and is in the League cup, it just gives them that extra focus and that confidence that they can go and do something later on in the season. So, yeah, I think a lot will depend on the results between now and then in terms of how significant that game will be in the title race. I know you might disagree with me. I. I hope as an impartial viewer of this balance, that, you know, that it does actually matter and it means something. And there's. There's a. There's a little bit more needle between the old friends of the, you know, the managers in charge or, sorry, the head coaches or money. Are they both managers? Aren't they? There we go. I keep correcting myself on that issue on this podcast.

IO Akimolere (42:20)

I don't know why. I just want Arsenal to lift a cup this season. So we'll just leave it there. All right, gents, I appreciate your time. And actually, before we go, quick shout out to the Seattle Seahawks for winning Super Bowl 60 over the weekend as well. We know we've got a lot of American fans listening to this podcast, so thank you very much for joining us gents, and also thank you very much for joining us on this pod as well. We'll see you soon.

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You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroo and Jay Beal with editing by Paul Iliff and Nick Thompson. The Executive producer is Aidy Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows. Search for the Athletic wherever you get your podcast. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company. Production.

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