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- [00:00]
Adam Crafton
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- [00:47]
Podcast Host / Announcer
The FIFA World Cup 26 is coming to North America next summer. It'll be the ultimate celebration of sports and culture. So get closer to the beautiful game with a hospitality package closer to the action in the best seats and suites, closer to match day elevated with world class food and entertainment closer to the experience of a lifetime. Book a hospitality package@fifaworldcup.com Hospitality. That's FIFAWorldCup.com Hospitality.
- [01:18]
David Ornstein
The Athletic FC.
- [01:21]
Akim Olere
Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me. I am Akim Olere. Arsenal have fallen five points off the pace in the Premier League after drawing with Manchester City in the boardroom. There's also changes as well. So how much do they have to do to catch Liverpool? Right with us today we have the Athletics, David Ornstein. We've also got Adam Crafton as well. Adam, let's start with you on this. Mikel Arteta said after the game he was very disappointed not to win, but we have to talk about the selection, especially in that midfield. Noeze Rice, Mourinho Zubimendi made a start. What did you make of it? And the team that he picked.
- [01:59]
Adam Crafton
I think it's what we've come to expect from Mikel Arteta in these big games. I think if you'd have said to most people before the game, how do you think Arteta will go about it? It was probably this. I think there's clearly a section of the fan base at the moment, maybe a growing section actually after yesterday as well. Who would like it to be a bit more expansive from the start? Who would like it to be a bit more brave and risk taking. I think the counterweight to that is that Arsenal do have this really pretty good record against big six teams going back a few years now and he feels that he's worked out a way not to lose these games. Obviously the recent game against Liverpool, there was some criticism after that, I thought some of that was a bit unfair, to be honest. You know, given how they limited Liverpool at Anfield, which we don't normally see. But yesterday I think a lot of people just saw an opportunity for Arsenal actually against a Manchester City team that still. It doesn't look like a Pep Guardiola team at the moment. Whatever they're currently doing, as good as Haaland is and Arsenal didn't really take that. So I think that's where yesterday comes from. I don't think it's in isolation. It's like this pattern that's building up of Arsenal making the most of the talent that they now have at their disposal. Or are they just being a little bit too cautious?
- [03:13]
Akim Olere
Yeah. Were they a bit cautious, David, do you think Arteta could have been a bit more risky? I guess in his approach?
- [03:19]
David Ornstein
He could be. I think the reaction in every direction has been way OTT on this, especially on social media, typically. And I don't just mean for Arsenal, for Man City as well, because everybody's talking their record low ball possession and the style of play that Pep Guardiola deployed. I guess that's not as big a story because they've been there, done that, won everything. And as we talked about on this program last week, it may be the, the final season of, of Pep Guardiola. Let's see. Whereas with Arteta, Arsenal fans, the public, the media see them in the earlier stages of their journey trying to win trophies and get over the line. And so it's a much bigger talking point and y there is this reputation that seems to be following Arteta around now that he's a little bit handbrake on and that he needs to let loose a little bit, I think that's an easy accusation for all of us to throw at him. He has done fantastically well to bring Arsenal up to competitive level again. Three second place finishes in a row is not to be sniffed at. A Champions League semi final last season, which could easily have been a final, they did take the handbrake off away to psg. They didn't manage to finish their chances and they look like their challenge again this season and they've built a squad that is deeper and better than ever under his reign. And, and I guess that's where the frustration is born out of, from sections of the Arsenal fan base that they're just so desperate now to get over the line and they've got the tools and resources in their mind to do so. And so when you see say a, a Marino and A Trossard who seem to be at the center of all the conversation picked and, and similarly at Anfield and the commentary from sort of well placed former players and pundits. And then that becomes the discourse that permeates throughout the game. You do ask yourself, what could he have done differently? I always look at it in a more balanced perspective. If he had played with E from the start, I. I probably would have given the magnitude of the signing and the skills he brings. But he didn't have the best game in Bilbao a few days earlier and Trossard actually played quite well against City. It was more. Should he have been in the number 10 role in the absence of Martin Odegaard, there's every chance, hypothetically speaking, that they'd gone for it and conceded two or three goals in the first half against City and then everybody would have been destroying Arteta for that. As it happened. Yeah, maybe a touch conservative in the first half, they opened up in the second half they did get their equalizer. It's no disgrace to be having such a good record against Manchester City and in top six games under Mikel Arteta and to be picking up a point against them now in the grand schem of things, especially in the circumstances of what happened in that match. Nothing's perfect. Michael Arteta may have some regrets about it, but I don't think it was a disaster that it seems to be being portrayed in some quarters. And if it is, that is testament to how far Arsenal under Arteta have come and the shift in expectations that surrounds them.
- [06:33]
Matt Slater
Yeah.
- [06:33]
Akim Olere
Does that level of expectation also change Adam, with the likes of Gyokores obviously coming in? Arsenal have needed that number nine for ages and can't help but see Ellen Haaland just peel off beautifully and score that lovely goal. I mean, there is a comparison to be made, but perhaps a little too early because Gilcar is probably just still finding his feet in the Premier League.
- [06:51]
Adam Crafton
In some ways, yes, but in other ways, you know, I don't think anyone can really imagine Gyokerez ever being at the level of Haaland. I don't think that's an unfair. Haaland's level is just so, so high that it's hard to imagine Gyokerez as good as he may end up being. Being that good. I mean, like the sprint he did yesterday for the goal, like when his head goes down, it was like a racehorse, like entering the final furlong, going beyond everyone else. It was. It was incredible. I don't think also being a center forward for Arsenal is so easy. You know, they're not a team that create in these big games a lot of chances. You know, they've not really made a chance for him in any of these big games so far this season. And yes, okay, sometimes you want a striker to just a bit like Haaland yesterday, kind of make something happen. But the way Manchester City was set up, you know, yesterday wasn't just about Arsenal. It was also about the way man City set up in the game meant there was never really that space that emerged for Arsenal, apart from bizarrely, like deep into added time where City's line went so high and then you had that space in behind that Martinelli benefited from. I think the frustration for people comes from the fact that you can see Arteta doing all this brilliant work and you can see the progress of the team and you're just there either as a neutral or I imagine as an Arsenal fan just being like, just go that final 2%, 5%. Because they're so close. They're so close. You know, you look at the quality that they now have across their squad and it does just feel like they're holding back in some way, like they're not sort of emptying everything onto the pitch. I don't mean they're not committed or determined, it's just, are they doing absolutely everything in their powers, in their talent powers to unlock these games? And I'm not sure that they necessarily are. And I don't think it means like you change the manager or anything dramatic like that. It's just, can the manager just find that balance? Because ultimately with the defense, you've basically got four center backs, you've got at least two holding midfielders. So like, could you put an Eze in from the start in a central position instead of Mourinho, maybe? Because probably if Odegaard was fit, he would play instead of Mourinho, you would think, right, so you could play Eze in that position. Maybe it's just if it was three weeks later and as they had been at the club a couple more weeks, he would start who we'll see in time to come. But I think it's that kind of thing that Arsenal fans look at maybe and just think, come on.
- [09:25]
Akim Olere
But where does that come from, Adam? Like, where they're going to get that from? You know, he has to be the manager, surely he has to be the coaching staff to say, lads, just go out there and take some risks.
- [09:33]
Adam Crafton
Yeah, I think there's a bit of that. I think it was a really interesting Press conference, from what I saw after the game, where I don't think Arteta liked the question he was asked. I think he was asked about the three man midfield. And can you explain, you know, why you set up that way? Maybe the journalists were looking for a kind of a line, you know, in terms of, you know, this is the thing people are talking about. I want. Let's hear Artesta talk about it. But I think they're probably also looking for insight into the way he thinks about this and why he feels it's so necessary in these big games. And he didn't really give an answer. It seemed like it grated on him to be asked about it. He then sort of said something like, well, you didn't ask about it when we won in Bilbao the other night, which is a fair point, but it had that kind of slightly aloof air that coaches sometimes take on when things haven't quite gone right. In a game where they really don't actually want to be asked anything technical or tactical, then if we'd have asked something about something silly off the pitch, they don't want to talk about that either that time. So sometimes coaches do sort of just become a bit spiky in those circumstances. And I think maybe that's an indication that Arteta knows. He'll have known that all the post match yesterday would have been, you know, people like Jamie Carragher, Roy Keane, Gary Neville saying, Arsenal need to take a risk, Arsenal need to win these games, Arteta needs to do more. Sure, he'll be very conscious of that.
- [10:53]
David Ornstein
It's a really good point and many managers would have reacted to that question. Like Adam points out, I always feel in these situations and I don't want to play down the level of experience of the former players or of insight of people that work in our part of the industry, or the intelligence of the public and fan base. But I also, for that token, understand how managers are sitting there basically being told that everybody knows better than them. When we're sat in our armchair chairs and we're sort of pontificating over their profession and their training and studying and working on this from a physical, literal, data perspective every day of the week. And that doesn't mean they're perfect by any means, but they're better qualified to judge than us. And if you say, oh, some of these managers become a bit blinkered at times or too wedded to a certain style or system, then they need to be challenged by their assistants and maybe even their sporting directors ahead of us now we're perfectly entitled or two but we're not as well placed to know everything that goes on here. And it was a really interesting point Adam made when he said it looks like to Arsenal fans. So a lot of this is optics. They want to swashbuckling performance even you said it there. IO why don't they just go and take another risk? It's not quite that simple when you're playing anybody let alone a Manchester City and Liverpool. The two examples we use here. Manchester City were sort of encamped in their own half last night. Not easy against any opposition, let alone one of such high level who to ditch in that instance the way they play. Even Pep said it after the game that that's not what he wants to see from his team. And so you've got this vision if you're Arsenal fans or the public when you see all the transfers and all the attacking talent they have at their disposal and why aren't they just going hell for leather. Just let loose, unleash the shackles and then you've got the history of what Arsenal fans have seen which is when they've won titles under Wenger it was pretty free flowing even when they were losing. They went for it at Highbury in particular with your Thierry Henry's and your Dennis Bergkamps and Lumbergs and Pires and Vieiras and. And they found ways through and many of us remember it. Then you look at the optics of who wears the number 14 now it's Yokares who's a. An extremely high level striker who's already made an impact for them in a way that strikers in the Premier League so far who are also new to it haven't. And also people are giving lots of time to certain other players in the Premier League but they don't seem to be giving that to Yokarest.
- [13:29]
Adam Crafton
The.
- [13:29]
David Ornstein
The analysis over every performance. Maybe part of it is because it's Arsenal and the expectation and the pressures. Maybe it's because of that number 14 on his back. And you're used to seeing if you're an Arsenal fan of a certain vintage Thierry Henry or even an Aubameyang and in Henry's case, you know, the most graceful and prolific and damaging of players.
- [13:49]
Adam Crafton
But don't you think that just even listening to you then like the way you're talking about players from 20 years ago and the excitement that's coming through from your voice I think actually just the kind of stirring that you just had thinking about about those games kind of underlines that yes they just Felt a bit underwhelming. And you're craving those moments again. Right? You're craving some players to take those risks and be allowed to take those risks. And instead, what we often see. And Arsenal get huge praise for this. I've praised them for this. And it's important, the set pieces, but it does slow the game down. The long throws, the corners. Like yesterday, there's 11 corners in the game. Great. Arsenal are getting corners. And every time they get one, if Arsenal aren't your team, you're there crapping yourself thinking, what are they going to do here? But from a momentum of the game perspective, it's not fast enough at times when they're attacking or when they're chasing a game. And there are times where I watch them, I think, surely you're better than, like, attempting long throws when you're chasing a game, trying to win the Premier League. And I know every team is kind of doing it now this season, but I kind of just feel like they're better than that, their players are better than that. And you kind of want to see a bit more of it.
- [15:03]
David Ornstein
And also you want to see what it would be like if they throw caution to the wind. And that's us without the ramifications of. Of what might happen if the jeopardy.
- [15:13]
Adam Crafton
That's the jeopardy of the viewer. Right. Like, we want to see the drama of what that will mean, whether that means either Arsenal, the risk pays off or it completely flies back in their face. And Arteta's proven right.
- [15:24]
Akim Olere
And football is still entertainment. Let's not forget, gentlemen, like, we are entertained as fans.
- [15:29]
David Ornstein
Yeah. And so you want to see if they can be the sum of their parts, which looks amazing on paper, and maybe even more than that, you want to see all hell break loose. And we don't really care about the negative side of that because it's that intrigue. And maybe when you're referring to 20 years ago, that's at times what Arsenal did under Wenger, where, with total respect to such a successful manager, now it's very different in the way Mikel Arteta, like Pep Guardiola, who he's learned under, they are managing sort of every element of what's going on on the pitch and where their team are moving and how they are set up and what duties they're performing. So totally agree. And we all want to see if Arsenal can go to where we all think they can go. But my only point is it is probably not as simplistic. And if that didn't work and they got stung like they've been stung in big matches historically in the last sort of 10 years or so and they losing these games. Well, what would people say about Arteta then?
- [16:34]
Akim Olere
All right, well for more on Arsenal's lack of fluency in attack, do head over to the Athletic and check out Emmy Lawrence's match piece from the Emirates. Right, let's move on because same story for Arsenal on the pitch, but there's plenty of change at executive level. We'll get into that one next.
- [16:51]
Podcast Host / Announcer
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Accumulere.
- [16:55]
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- [18:17]
Podcast Host / Announcer
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- [18:49]
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- [19:28]
Akim Olere
We'Ve got Matt Slater with us who's going to be talking more about how there have been some changes at executive level at Arsenal. But before that, David, you broke the news that vice chair Tim Lewis has left the club. How surprised are you by that news? But also I guess the timing of it's quite interesting as well.
- [19:43]
David Ornstein
Yeah, I think it would have shocked many because Tim Lewis has been so heavily involved in Arsenal's rise and that features their three second place finishes, as we mentioned earlier, their competitiveness on the European stage as well, their finances being in a much better state and generally the club is healthier on and off the pitch and they've been on an upward trajectory since the Kroenkes took full ownership in, what was it, the summer of 2018. Tim Lewis was always their right hand man, that's how he's described by many. He helped Stan Kroenke with the takeover initially or the gradual investment and he was always sort of on the scene at Arsenal initially non exec when he came in and then he got the exec position fast forwarding to the sort of present day integral to the summer transfer window that has bought them. All of these players that everybody's or many people are celebrating certainly among the Arsenal fan base worked really well with Andrea Berta Mikel Arteta Edu previously to Andrea Berta certainly not everybody's cup of tea and we'll come on to speak about that, I'm sure Matt will in terms of Premier League circles, maybe inside Arsenal as well as outside. And so with all of that in mind, it was something you didn't forecast, nor did you forecast Daniel Levy leaving Tottenham so soon after the summer transfer window. So maybe a little bit of symmetry there, but certainly there's been a growing influence of Josh Kroenke on behalf of kse, the ownership and obviously Stan Kroenke as he gets older. Maybe that was a natural ascent and we don't know the all the ins and outs. To my understanding, it wasn't Tim Lewis's call to leave his role. Arsenal's statement described it as stepping down, but this was definitely their their call. It's a fascinating time. And yeah, the end of the Tim Lewis era is something that is pretty fundamental, not just for Arsenal, but for. For the Premier League as a whole too.
- [21:38]
Akim Olere
Okay, definitely. We're going to get more into that in just a second. Matt. Let. Let's go back to Tim Lewis. Thanks for joining us. By the way, how will his exit from Arsenal be viewed by others in the Premier League? More importantly, everyone was shocked.
- [21:51]
Matt Slater
I got a few messages. Daniel Levy, like, surprise. I think David's already hinted that he divided people. So I got a few messages along those lines. And when I say divided people, I kind of mean they were pleased to see him go.
- [22:06]
Akim Olere
Stretch the point, Matt. There. Nice.
- [22:08]
Matt Slater
Yeah. However, I think reading between the lines, Tim Lewis was a bit like Robbie Savage.
- [22:14]
Akim Olere
Oh, did not think that name was going to be dropped in. Right, okay.
- [22:18]
Matt Slater
If he was in your team, you loved him. He passionately fought Arsenal's corner, was consistent, straightforward. He did his job for his club. But if he wasn't on your team, he was bloody annoying. I've never met the guy. I have asked for an interview with him because I kept hearing how influential he was in Premier League shareholder meetings. And this goes back a few years. He's been on the board there, I think since 2020. And he's had this very senior position since 2023. Okay. So it's not a huge amount of time, but there's been quite a lot of upheaval in the room. And Lewis goes to meetings and he speaks in meetings. And in some of these meetings, you know, because people are having rows of the Premier League, they might have a very sort of specific sort of beef with another club. Who knows, right. There's lots of politics. Lewis has had a reputation for talking. You know, sometimes people think it's helpful. I think the only time he's really kind of crossed over into the mainstream, like kind of being a story. And it's funny that we're talking today after a pretty eventful draw between Man City and Arsenal. The only time I can think that he became a story was a previous one and it was a really exciting game. It was the stay humble game where Tim Lewis, Man City claim stormed out without shaking hands with his counterparts. Now, of course, Arsenal and Tim Lewis would say, no, he didn't storm out. I had to go. I was in a hurry. That was about the only time that he's been back page. Now, Arsenal and Man City don't get on because Arsenal have been on the opposite side of apt financial fair play. The charges Arsenal in The eyes of Man City and their fans are Red Cartel. That's who he's been.
- [24:08]
Adam Crafton
If you've been in the Premier League over the past 10 years or so, probably some of the issues that are most fiercely argued about now, whether that's psr, cost controls, financial fair play across whichever competition we're talking about, I think Arsenal have been completely, as you just say with regards to Manchester City at the heart of that and not just at the heart of wanting it, but trying to push it and make sure it's enforced and make sure it's not not relaxed in any way. And also when Newcastle come along, making sure that there isn't a repeat of Manchester City by making sure that the rules are there, would you say Arsenal were the key drivers of that? And it's also interesting that this coincides with the time where Daniel Levy is leaving Tottenham or has left Tottenham. So you've actually got two of the fiercest advocates for this vision of football in the Premier League leaving at the same time. So I'm curious maybe how you think those two leaving at the same time, what impact that has around the table.
- [25:09]
Matt Slater
Well, I think that's really significant. So if you take the two together, you're taking out two of the most experienced, biggest, loudest, strongest personalities, British voices who very much spoke for the rule book. Concerns around sovereign wealth, concerns around people throwing money around. So they haven't just upset City and Newcastle, other clubs have kind of bristled a little bit. Aston Villa, Chelsea around asset sales. It's no mistake that kind of Tim Lewis ended up there. One, he's a fan, right? But he has sort of personified a very long standing Arsenal position. This sort of bank of England club. Traditional values, we've always been big, biggest club in London, old money. Didn't like the fact that Chelsea came along 20 odd years ago, didn't like the fact that man city came along 15. You know, it's sort of that Persona they give off and Lewis has embodied that. Now you ask a really question like, well is he just Arsenal? Has Tim Lewis led this? I think maybe at times it's looked like he's led this because he has talked. He's the guy in the meeting who talks. Liverpool who are probably sitting there with their arms folded going get going Tim, keep going. Yep, yep, yep, yep. You know, as are Man United at times, as are, you know, the middle class clubs who I think have at times appreciated Tim Lewis battering ram approach, who are all very concerned about big clubs being big, bullying people galloping off into the distance. You know, Daniel Levy's done that as well. Daniel Levy has been that voice in the room who kind of speaks for that old Richard Scudermore boardroom, that collegiate approach. Guys, we're in this together. So I think that is interesting and it'd be really. I'm fascinated to see how this plays out. I haven't heard the consensus view yet on why, why, why now. And the best I've heard, and it's kind of mine as well, is that this is about the Kronkeys being more confident. This is about like the next generation of Kronkies. Josh basically going, do you know what? I don't need anyone holding my hand anymore. We're pretty good at this. We own the Rams, the Nuggets, the Avalanche, we get sport. We've done our apprenticeship here long enough. We're going to properly integrate our group. Now I wonder how Lewis was working with the rest of the group.
- [27:30]
David Ornstein
Group.
- [27:30]
Matt Slater
It's really interesting that not only have they, has he stood down and Josh is stepping up, but they brought in two KSE senior executives. One's a real estate expert, one's a finance expert and an advisor who I think is sort of a kind of a governance expert. And then of course they brought Ben Winston in as well, who's media. So they're kind of like ticking boxes with bringing more expertise in and it just feels like a much more big American sports approach as opposed to having one big character doing a bit of everything and fighting everybody.
- [28:02]
David Ornstein
Yeah, the fine detail may come out in time and we don't have a huge amount so far, but I'm not aware of there being massive integration between KSE, certainly sports clubs and Arsenal. There's obviously been Sean McVay and Mikel Arteta and there may be other bits and bobs behind the scenes, but it's not like a multi club system. I know there's only two football clubs within it, but there are some now pretty successful sports franchises in terms of the Nuggets and the Rams. I think there was quite, quite significant change at the Nuggets that Josh Kroenke oversaw in terms of removing some long standing executives and bringing in some new ones at a pretty critical time. So there is some sort of precedent within the group for this. But yeah, I don't know of, of Tim Lewis sort of collaborating with other areas, but he collaborated very closely, as we know with Andrea Berta and Mikel Arteta. So that's a significant second person extracted from that triumvirate. And it will be very interesting to see how they sort of replace that as well as how they replaced the absence of their teeth now, you know, in the areas that Matt describes the corridors of power and, and in the political world. So, yeah, it will be also fascinating to see if Josh Kroenke spends more time over here now, whether he's, he's more hands on. It'll be fascinating to know exactly what's gone on here, but also exactly what it means next and whether this is kind of a sign of the sort of American influence not over just Arsenal on day to day basis, but other Premier League sides.
- [29:34]
Akim Olere
Well, that's exactly what I want to finish on before Matt goes. Very quickly, Matt, is that, you know, we've seen this growing influence of American business in the Premier League and you know, right at the top of the podcast we're talking about how much further do Arsenal have to go to get to where Liverpool are. Would you say FSG are sort of a, a good indication as to the standard?
- [29:53]
Matt Slater
Yeah, I suppose so. I mean, it would, it seemed that way now, wouldn't it? Because they're doing it on the pitch. But Arsenal have been for, for, you know, a stretch of time now and I don't think Arsenal get enough credit really for the Emirates move and just the sort of success of, of that. I know it feels like ancient history now, but that's, it's a great stadium. You know, it's full, it looks and sounds like a football ground. They've done a good job there. They just, they just need to win a title and everyone would suddenly go, oh, you know, they're the gold standard. I think the thing that I would add to the, to the Lewis post mortem. No, he's not. Is that he has taken a sort of de facto leadership role within the League on negotiations with the EFL around the New Deal. His approaches can be a little bit belligerent and there's certainly no love lost. There's no one grieving his exit in EFL circles and that's clubs as well. They found him kind of tough to deal with, a bit patronizing, frankly. Now he's not here to defend himself. Like I said in my opening answer, I think his approach was what's best for us. Arsenal, various clubs, EFL and Premier League have talked to me about how Tim Lewis perhaps drove the Premier League down wrong avenues in how they should approach that, how they should lobby, how they should prepare themselves, how they should deal with government, and appears to have felt he could steer the new government the new Labour government towards a much softer, more premier league friendly regulator. And that just hasn't panned out. Now whether that is the other clubs looking to point blame, I don't know. And again, maybe it's just because he spoke in meetings. You know, it's a bit like traitors, right? You don't speak first. There's so much of this right finger pointing and politicking afterwards, but that is the perception of what happened.
- [31:53]
Akim Olere
Okay, nice one, Matt. Well, we'll let you go. Appreciate your time as always. Speak soon. Well, next, let's get into some questions for dav.
- [32:08]
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- [32:28]
Adam Crafton
I can't believe they're having a gender reveal for their dog.
- [32:31]
David Ornstein
No, no, no, no.
- [32:31]
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This is a breed reveal.
- [32:33]
Adam Crafton
Oh.
- [32:34]
Thumbtack Advertiser
So yeah, they're finding out the breed of the puppy they're rescuing.
- [32:38]
David Ornstein
So they could just be spending all their money on like pet insurance.
- [32:40]
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Adam Crafton
Oh, here we go. What do you think beige confetti means?
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Akim Olere
I don't know.
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Adam Crafton
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- [33:40]
Podcast Host / Announcer
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Aya Akimolera, Alexis McAllister, Ryan Gravenberg.
- [33:46]
Matt Slater
And it goes down to Hugo Ekatike.
- [33:49]
Akim Olere
All right, so Liverpool are now five points clear at the top of the Premier League following their win over Everton in the Merseyside Derby this weekend. 15 points from 15 for Arne Slot's side. Adam, are we already seeing Liverpool pull away in the Premier League race?
- [34:05]
Adam Crafton
It feels that way. I don't think the performances are there now. There's two ways to look at that. On the one hand it means there's a vulnerability that at some point may be exposed. I thought again against Everton there was periods of the game, second half where they didn't look great. The flip side is, is they've kind of won five games without any of their new signings. Really looking like they've bedded in fully. You know, you've had Kirk has taken off in the first half of games. Wirtz I think has been pretty underwhelming so far. Obviously Ekatike has done well, I should say that. But Isaac is obviously just kind of starting. So there's something a bit ominous about that. I think one of the reasons why Arsenal fans may have been a bit more annoyed yesterday is because of the game they've got next week. Week which is Newcastle away, which has really been like a graveyard for Arsenal in the past couple of years. And that's going to be another really big test actually for Arsenal. And I think Liverpool have got a pretty straightforward looking game. Palace away next week. Strangely, palace were a lot better away than they are at home. I mean, although they're not easy to beat, you would think that Liverpool win that game and then it puts pressure on Arsenal again, right? It's are we going to be like 6, 7, 8 points before the clocks have even come gone back? And, and that's. I think that's the worry. It's like they're getting away from us and they're so good. It's not just what Arsenal do, it's also, you know, what Liverpool do equally. You know, I think Arsenal knew at the start of the season they had a pretty tough opening. You know, they knew they had to go to Man United. They won that game. So that's probably maybe. Is that a game you expect to win over? Historically it's been a bit tricky for Arsenal. So you know that one they did okay, the Liverpool one one, I think that was disappointing result. But okay. It's your hardest game of the season. If you're going to lose a game, you probably lose that one and then Man City play, you draw. But it probably just means they have to go to Man City later in the season and win because it does feel like a year where it's going to be 90 points to win the league. So Arsenal can drop points, but it just puts pressure on them later in the season to have less margin for error when there's more and more games coming.
- [36:16]
Akim Olere
Yeah, and I guess it probably leads on to something Emmy Lawrence has been speaking about in terms of Arsenal finding their fluidity and trying to click in real time against some amazing opposition as well. All right, that's the weekend's action discuss. Time to put your questions to David Ornstein. We've reached out through our YouTube channel and also picked out a couple for you as well. David. Let's get into the first one. This one says, hi David. There is a lot of online chatter that seems completely sure that players like Sterling are getting a big check to essentially do nothing in seeing out their contracts. Is this true? Surely a club that's as money minded like Chelsea isn't going to do a deal where they are paying out millions of dollars for what's really an unproductive worker. It makes no financial sense. How do players wages actually work? Do they still receive full wages regardless of whether or not they are playing? Good question.
- [37:11]
David Ornstein
I think we need to get a contractual lawyer on the pod to explain that. Raheem Sterling, like any other player, has rights. It was Chelsea who awarded him that and they have obligations towards him. It's not his decision not to be playing. He clearly has fallen out of favor there. That's why he spent last season on loan at Arsenal and he's now back at Chelsea. There were a couple of opportunities even towards the end of the window with Champions League clubs, but at that stage, you know, we don't know the ins and outs of, of what was on offer. If it was a loan, which I've heard it was from Bayern Munich I think on deadline day. But you know, this is somebody that will have his own personal reasons. It's been quite well document in terms of wanting to be close to a young family and how supportive they have been of him in a very difficult period for him footballing wise. And so leaving them all to go on loan somewhere may not have been ideal in the meantime. You know, it's been reported over the last week that Chelsea and the PFA Professional Footballers association have been in contact to ensure that minimum training standards are met. Not just for Sterling, but for Axel Desasi as well. I mean, I think Sterling posted on social media a picture of training late at night and you know, we can make of that what we will. Enzo Maresca has had his say, sort of responding to claims that it could be having an impact on, on Raheem Sterling's mental health by saying, you know, telling stories about his father and the sort of hardships that he had in his life and insinuating that the money is a comfort. I think we need to be very careful when we come to comparing sort of financial remuneration to somebody's mental well being. There's no real fault here from what I can see. I understand both perspectives. The January transfer window is not far off. I presume they will all look again to find a solution to it then. I don't expect Raheem Sterling, like any footballer pretty much to just say, oh, see you later, cancel my contract, I'll go for free when there's something like £30 million worth on the, on the deal he signed. These are two way things. But equally Chelsea probably aren't in a position to just give that to him, him to go and become a free agent and then sign elsewhere. So it's not nice for anyone. I'm sure there's a bit of a standoff clearly going on. And yeah, to answer the question specifically, it's just the way contracts work and there is a lot more to it than just saying why are they paying somebody that's not playing? It's just a complicated situation and it needs to be resolved.
- [39:45]
Akim Olere
All right, second question for you, David. What transfer deal in your time working in this area has taken you most by surprise?
- [39:53]
David Ornstein
There's some good contenders, but the one that springs to mind immediately is Arsenal signing Mesut Ozil from Real Madrid. And I remember vividly reporting that summer on how Arsenal were working on deals to sign both Karim Benzema and Angel Di Maria.
- [40:10]
Akim Olere
Could you imagine?
- [40:11]
David Ornstein
Which caught a lot of people by surprise given the magnitude of those two players. However, for a number of reasons, those two possibilities didn't evolve. And the one that did was Mesut Ozil. And we later found out that kind of that was suggested by Florentino Perez to Arsenal because somebody had to go as an alternative to Benzema and Di Maria. And I think many people would remember the wry smile on Arsene Wenger's face when he was asked about it. I think when Arsenal after Arsenal played Tottenham. And little did we all know that Arsenal's transfer executives were busy trying to that a deal for Ozil and, and, and then it got done before transfer deadline day. So yeah, that, that was one that definitely sticks in the mind from my career as being sort of wow. And there are many others over time. Definitely think back to before I was reporting on Luis Figo joining Barcelona from Real Madrid. Crossing the divide in my earlier days, I think you had Carlos Tevez who had been at Man City and later moved to Man United. So there's lots of but even Eze to this day in the most recent market. But let's go for Ozil from Real Madrid to Arsenal.
- [41:21]
Akim Olere
As you mentioned, Tevez and Figo, we ran a wonderful series called transfers that shook the world. Make sure you check it out right now. Right, Adam, finally, before we go, you know the drill right now. It's over to you for the final whistle. You've got 60 seconds to tell us what's on your mind from the world of football this week. Are you ready?
- [41:40]
Adam Crafton
I'm ready. Ready.
- [41:41]
Akim Olere
All right, the clock starts now.
- [41:44]
Adam Crafton
Well, this week, Chelsea and their goalkeepers. So Chelsea, I think, have started to look like a team that might go somewhere. You know, they obviously won the club World Cup. But five minutes into a really big game at Old Trafford, Robert Sanchez comes blazing out of his penalty area, takes out red card. The substitute goalkeeper Jorgensen did okay. Probably should have come for that second goal, but I think it highlighted a weakness in Chelsea. And I was looking back through how many goalkeepers Chelsea have sort of signed since Courtois left in 2018. So I think it's over 11 goal. 11 or more. What? You've got Kepa, Jorgensen, Mendy, Sanchez, Penders, Petrovic, Slanina, Eduardo. I don't know who Eduardo is. Willy Caballero, Rob Green, Marcus Bettinelli, and that's almost 200 million euros. And look, some of them may go on to be fantastic, but for now, I think it is one of those issues when you look at the goalkeepers. Wow. It's such a big issue. It's such a big issue. One minute is not enough for this.
- [42:51]
Akim Olere
No, but you screwed yourself over by naming every single keeper that they served.
- [42:55]
Adam Crafton
Exactly. That's what I mean, right? It takes 60 seconds just to name the goalkeepers. I've proven the point exactly right. Well, no, it's a shame because I think Maresca's done a good job there, but I think it's going to hold them back. I think it's a shame.
- [43:08]
Akim Olere
Yeah, spot on. Spot on. All right, gents, that was really entertaining. Appreciate your time. David, Adam, thanks so much for your time. And also Matt Slater, who joined us earlier. Well, thank you guys for listening as well. We're back tomorrow.
- [43:21]
Podcast Host / Announcer
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabre and Jay Beal. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and Adie Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows. Search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
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Adam Crafton
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