The Athletic FC Podcast: "How do Arsenal catch Liverpool?"

Date: September 22, 2025
Host: Akim Olere
Guests: David Ornstein, Adam Crafton, Matt Slater

Episode Overview

This episode of The Athletic FC Podcast dives into Arsenal's recent struggles to keep pace with Premier League leaders Liverpool, following a frustrating draw with Manchester City. The panel analyzes Mikel Arteta’s cautious tactical approach, summer transfers, and what’s necessary for Arsenal to take the extra steps needed to win the title. They also explore significant executive changes at Arsenal, particularly the departure of vice-chair Tim Lewis, and the broader impact on club governance and Premier League politics. The show rounds up with listener questions and a rapid-fire look at Chelsea's transfer market goalkeeper chaos.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Mikel Arteta’s Approach: Progress vs. Pragmatism

Evaluation of Arsenal’s Setup vs. Man City

• Arteta’s Cautious Selection:

  • Adam Crafton notes that Arteta’s midfield selection (starting Zubimendi over Rice, the absence of Eze from the start, and the use of Trossard) follows a pattern: “There’s clearly a section of the fan base… who would like it to be a bit more expansive from the start… more brave and risk taking.” (01:58)
  • He emphasizes Arteta’s track record in “not losing” big-six matches, but questions whether this comes at the expense of missing out on victory.

• Perspective on Fan Frustration:

  • David Ornstein cautions against overreaction: “The reaction in every direction has been way OTT… He [Arteta] has done fantastically well to bring Arsenal up to competitive level again.” (03:18)
  • Ornstein spotlights the shift in expectations: “If frustration is there, that’s testament to how far Arsenal under Arteta have come.” (06:16)

Notable Quote:

“Three second place finishes in a row is not to be sniffed at. A Champions League semi final last season… and they look like their challenge again this season.”
— David Ornstein (04:03)

2. The Striker Conundrum: Viktor Gyökeres vs. Erling Haaland

Comparison and Expectations

• Gyökeres Finding His Feet:

  • Adam Crafton distinguishes between Gyökeres and Haaland: “I don’t think anyone can really imagine Gyökeres ever being at the level of Haaland… but being a center forward for Arsenal isn’t so easy. They’re not a team that create in these big games a lot of chances.” (06:51)
  • The lack of service and high defensive setups limit Arsenal’s striker impact in marquee matches.

• The Call for “2-5% More”:

  • “They’re so close. You look at the quality that they have… it does just feel like they’re holding back in some way, like they’re not sort of emptying everything onto the pitch.” — Adam Crafton (08:00)

3. Risk, Responsibility & Football as Entertainment

Debate: Should Arsenal Take More Risks?

• Press Room Tensions:

  • Crafton recounts Arteta’s “spiky” post-match press conference: “It had that aloof air that coaches sometimes take on when things haven’t quite gone right… he didn’t want to be asked anything technical or tactical.” (09:33)

• Armchair Management vs. Real-Life Responsibility:

  • Ornstein empathizes with managers: “Managers are sitting there being told that everybody knows better than them when we’re sat in our armchairs… doesn’t mean they’re perfect, but they’re better qualified to judge.” (10:53)

• Nostalgia and Style:

  • The longing for Wenger-era attacking flair is addressed:

    “[Fans] want to swashbuckling performance… why aren’t they just going hell for leather? Just let loose, unleash the shackles… but if they got stung, what would people say about Arteta then?”
    — David Ornstein (15:28)

• Football as Spectacle:

  • “Football is still entertainment. We are entertained as fans.” — Akim Olere (15:24)

4. Executive Turmoil: Tim Lewis’ Departure & the Arsenal Boardroom

Tim Lewis’ Importance and Sudden Exit

• Lewis as a Divisive Figure:

  • Ornstein: “He’s been so heavily involved in Arsenal’s rise… integral to the summer transfer window that has bought them all of these players.” (19:42)
  • Matt Slater describes Lewis as “a bit like Robbie Savage… If he was in your team, you loved him… if not, he was bloody annoying.” (22:08)

• Impact on Premier League Dynamics:

  • Adam Crafton contextualizes: “Arsenal have been at the heart [of]… cost controls, financial fair play… trying to make sure it’s enforced and not relaxed. Two of the fiercest advocates for this vision… [Lewis and Levy] leaving at the same time—what impact does that have?” (24:08)

• Shift to American Model:

  • Matt Slater predicts the Kroenkes’ growing confidence and a shift toward an integrated, American sports-franchise style:

    “It feels like a much more big American sports approach, as opposed to having one big character fighting everybody.” (27:30)

5. Liverpool’s Ominous Form

Can Arsenal Catch Klopp’s Successors?

• Adam Crafton: “Liverpool have won five games without any of their new signings really looking like they’ve bedded in fully… there’s something a bit ominous about that.” (34:05)
• Arsenal’s next game (“Newcastle away, a graveyard for Arsenal recently”) is flagged as a critical test as Liverpool pull five points clear.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On what Arsenal fans crave:

  “You’re craving those moments again. You’re craving some players to take those risks and be allowed to take those risks.”
  — Adam Crafton (13:49)

• On Tim Lewis’ leadership:

  “He passionately fought Arsenal’s corner… But if he wasn’t on your team, he was bloody annoying.”
  — Matt Slater (22:17)

• On the limits of fan expectation:

  “We all want to see if Arsenal can go to where we all think they can go… but my only point is it is probably not as simplistic.”
  — David Ornstein (15:28)

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:21 — Introduction: Arsenal’s draw with Man City and the challenge of catching Liverpool
• 01:58 — Adam Crafton analysis: Arteta’s cautious tactics
• 03:13 — David Ornstein: Why the criticism should be in context
• 06:32 — The striker debate: Gyökeres vs. Haaland
• 09:33 — Arteta’s press conference and questions on risk
• 13:49 — Fan nostalgia for Wenger-era football
• 15:24 — Football as entertainment and the case for more daring play
• 19:27 — Executive changes: Tim Lewis’s departure
• 22:08 — Matt Slater: The boardroom politics of Lewis and Levy
• 24:08 — Arsenal’s leading role in financial regulation battles
• 27:30 — Shift toward American sports management (Kroenke influence)
• 34:05 — Liverpool’s perfect start and Arsenal’s looming tests

Listener Questions & Final Thoughts

• Sterling’s Chelsea Situation:

  • Ornstein clarifies contract realities for out-of-favor players and why wage payouts for not playing are not as simple as they may appear. (37:10)

• Most Surprising Transfer:

  • Ornstein: “Arsenal signing Mesut Ozil from Real Madrid” — the shock factor lies in how secretive and unexpected the move was. (39:52)

• Adam Crafton’s ‘Final Whistle’ (Chelsea’s Goalkeeper Merry-Go-Round):

  • “I was looking back through how many goalkeepers Chelsea have signed since Courtois left in 2018… almost 200 million euros. One minute is not enough for this.” (41:44)

Conclusion

The episode offers an in-depth look at Arsenal’s stuck-in-second trajectory, Arteta’s methods, and a club undergoing deep change both on and off the field. Using Liverpool as the “standard,” the panel highlights what Arsenal must do—tactically and organizationally—to make the leap to champions. The departures of Tim Lewis and Daniel Levy are seen as milestones in shifting Premier League influence, perhaps heralding a new era of American-led, business-oriented football management at Arsenal and beyond.

Listeners come away with a nuanced understanding of Arsenal’s situation—balancing hope and frustration, tradition and transition, and always with a view toward the broader power dynamics in English football.